Sikh Leader Condemns The Murder Of Henry Nowak | Kirpan Debate

0:00An all-new season of the Hulu Original Series, The Secret Lives of Mormon Wives, is now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney+. Four years ago, we were just making TikToks. But it feels like there are no friendships left in MomTalk. You act like you're better than everyone, you're not. I can't trust anyone in this group. She's just dead to me. There's so much the public doesn't know. Watch the new season of the Hulu Original Series, The Secret Lives of Mormon Wives, now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney+. For bundle subscribers, terms apply. And we're back. Streaming on Peacock. May I present to you the award-winning staff of the Toledo Truth Teller.

0:36Slap me. Let's jar something loose. Ay, yes! I like that. The Certified Fresh Series returns. Your boss. You always like this, or is this just an act? Oh, no, this is mad. Oysters, everybody! How to have my heart! There's a certain satisfaction when you work with someone. Maybe we could be a family. You sadistic pig! The Paper. New season streaming September 9th, only on Peacock. This show gives me a reason to laugh. The kirpan is not a weapon. We have the exemption to wear it. We don't have the exemption to use it. They knew he was a wrong one. So they went to the police. Nothing was done. They banned him from the Sikh place of worship.

1:13We're judged by the actions of this one guy. A Sikh woman was followed into a house by a white guy, raped because they thought she was Muslim. A criminal is a criminal. Butchers, chefs, carpenters. But there's no other community that are allowed to carry it on their hip. Politicians, lawmakers, law enforcers. How can Britain turn a blind eye to their daughters being raped? Some of the stories that I've heard. I'm not reading from reports. I've actually sat with victims. As soon as they opened their eyes, they were drugged. Six or seven people on top of them and taking turns. I've heard it from people.

1:472 % of all knife crime is done by these Rambo knives. 49 % is done by kitchen. The kirpan, zero. Is there anybody else in your community the public needs to be warned about?

2:04Mohan, thanks for coming back on. Your interview has been one of my biggest viewed interviews since I started. Last time you were here, we spoke about the Sikh Awareness Society, how you support the victims, target the perpetrators. This time around, we're going to talk about the tragic murder of Henry Novak, the backlash that the Sikh community have received off the back of Digua's actions. But just if I can ask you, what would you say to Henry Novak's family to get the ball rolling? I think, look, the whole incident has to be condemned fully from the heart. The whole community has condemned it.

2:43And to Henry Novak's family, our deepest condolences with them. I don't think there's words that I could actually use that would console them but I'd just like to send a message out to them I too lost my nephew at the age of 27 from a hit and run sort of a car accident and I know what it feels like to lose somebody close and how it takes time to sort of get over it and any help that we can do from the community's perspective will put it out there for the family. I also want Henry Novak's name to be remembered because there's always a new tragedy down the line and normally it's the perpetrator that gets remembered rather than the poor victim.

3:28So I'm going to try and use his name as much as possible rather than Digwas. But since the murder of Henry Novak, the Sikh community have come under intense scrutiny. What's the general feeling amongst the Sikh community been since that murder? Well, I think it was a bit of shock because it's an individual act. It's a murder. It's a criminal. And the community feels that because of one person, 700 ,000 Sikhs across the country are being judged because of that one act. And unfairness throughout the community because if we look at the same thing, what happened to young Henry Novak and we had the family especially call out that this isn't about racism and this isn't about Sikhism.

4:24We don't want to politicise this death and that was the father of Henry Novak putting that out there. But what did some politicians do? Call it cold rage. So there were so many sort of attacks against the Sikh community And I know politicians are asking for equality across the board and no two-tier policing. But what about the politicians themselves? Because I don't know if you're aware of a case called Chaz Corrigan. He murdered a student from Cambridge University, a Saudi Arabian student. Murdered him, took the weapon home. His father hid it. Both of them behind bars. Similar case to the Diguar family where they lied and then the weapons perverting the course of justice.

5:19In this similar case, this is exactly the same thing that's happened here. But there's no outrage. There's no cold rage. The question is why? The community feels let down. A murder is a murder. A criminal is a criminal. So is it one rule for one and one rule for another? Now, it was horrendous, but you don't have the whole Saudi Arabian government calling every white person a criminal or stuff like that. But it's where we, according after the Digua thing, we literally felt that the whole community here is being judged and certain racial slurs were made across social media and everything like that.

6:06And there were attacks on Sikh people or Asian people. There was an attack on an elderly person who was burnt, right? And one of the guys was arrested in Leeds, or both of them were arrested in Leeds, and they happened to be white guys. Now, did that attack happen because of the Henry Novak thing? Or was it the politician speaking upon it? asking for cold rage. What was it? But we've had many, many attacks on the community, whether it's social media, whether it's racist slurs, we've had physical attacks. So the community, the elderly people in the community, the women folk in the community, yeah, they felt at ease because they felt that every time they stepped outside the house, they were being judged.

7:02Yeah, I saw one of the elder Sikhs be attacked It was filmed somewhere, I think Birmingham, Wolverhampton area Smavik Is that where it was? Smavik Yeah, to set somebody on fire is outrageous It's outrageous and it happened But what I'm saying is that if we feel And I'm not sort of undermining anything What happened to Henry Novak and their family A death is a death and it's a really, really great loss But if we can call that, politicians can call that out, why can't they call this particular thing out? Why couldn't they call out when a Sikh woman was followed into a house by a white guy, raped because they thought she was Muslim?

7:48Nobody called that out either. And that only happened last year. So what I'm saying is when people are saying there's two-tier policing, there's two-tier politicians here. When it suits them to politicise the agenda, they politicise it. And when it doesn't suit them to bring it out, they stay stum on that. And that's where the community thinks it's unfair. A criminal is a criminal. And you know what? As a community, what more could we have done to prevent this? We actually, as a community, outed Digwa. Yeah, tell me more about that. Well, the community in Southampton, the place where he prayed on a regular basis, where his family prayed, they knew he was a wrong one.

8:32So they went to the police and complained about this particular person in 23. Nothing was done. So their second step was they banned him from the Sikh place of worship. That's all they could do. So we as a community, we'll out our own. It's not that we're going to hide underneath when it suits us and shout when it suits us. I mean, myself, I was standing outside Leeds Crown Court in 2018 because the leader of the gang was a Sikh guy, Ajmej Tariwal. I stood out there not in the name of Sikhi. And I'm saying that to Digwa, not in the name of Sikhi. But we felt the whole community, the whole, we're judged by the actions of this one guy.

9:27And we've been here over a hundred years. A hundred years. Well, I can't think of any issues or any clashes or any indifferences that we've had over the past. I mean, there may be some here or there, but it's not like they're en masse. No. I mean, we've assimilated into the whole British culture. I mean, there was a BBC report many years ago saying that we are the biggest contributors to charity. We don't use the resources of government like benefits or something. We're self-sufficient. Whichever country we go to, we like to make a better life for ourselves. We like to make a better life for our children.

10:13Leave that place a better place than we've got it. So, an all-new season of the Hulu Original Series. The Secret Lives of Mormon Wives is now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney+. Four years ago, we were just making TikToks. But it feels like there are no friendships left in MomTalk. You act like you're better than everyone. You're not. I can't trust anyone in this group. She's just dead to me. There's so much the public doesn't know. Watch the new season of the Hulu original series, The Secret Lives of Mormon Wives. Now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney+. For bundle subscribers, terms apply.

10:47And we're back. streaming on Peacock. May I present to you the award-winning staff of the Toledo Truth Teller. Slap me. Let's jar something loose. Ay, yes! I like that. The certified fresh series returns. Your boss. You always like this or is this just an act? Oh no, this is mad. Oysters, everybody! As I have... There's a certain satisfaction when you work with someone. Maybe we could be a family. You sadistic pig! The Paper. New season streaming September 9th only on Peacock. This show gives me a reason to laugh. After the murder of Henry Novak, the public conversation shifted almost immediately towards the kirpan So for those that don't know what the kirpan is, what is it exactly?

11:27Well, the kirpan is a religious artifact It's not just on its own, it's the five K's You have your K's, uncut hair You have a kashara, which is shorts You have a kara, which I'm wearing hair You have a kanga in the hair And then you have the kirpan Karpaan, two words. Karpaa means compassion. It means grace. It means mercy. And Aan means honor, dignity, and self-respect. Now, the Karpaan is not a weapon. It's a part of the 5Ks. Now, 300 years ago, weapons were used, guns were used, you know, big swords were used, Everything was used because there was genocidal attacks against the Sikhs. We survived through 300 years of persecution.

12:21But the Karpan was never even used. Then other weapons were used. And even in this case of young Henry Novak, the Karpan was never used. The Karpan was still under his clothing. It was a Persian dagger that was used. That's what I wanted to ask you. Yeah. Because it was assumed that it must have been the kirpan that he used to murder Henry. Yeah. So how do we know that it wasn't that? Because that's what was, and that was also reported as well. But the Sikh community, they've reported that it wasn't the kirpan. No, because he had two, he had the kirpan on, which is part of the five case. And then he had an additional weapon, which is a Persian dagger, which was used in, that was the actual item that's used in taking Henry Novak's life.

13:13So it wasn't the kirpan. In the UK, in the history of the UK, the kirpan has zero. When we look at knife crime in general, 2 % of all knife crime is done by these Rambo knives and 15 % is done by machetes and stuff like that. Do you know what? Over 40 % is done by kitchen knives. Do you know that? 49 % is done by kitchen knives. It's the most convenient thing to reach for. It's the most convenient. And do you not go out and say, well, we're going to ban kitchen knives? What would you say to someone that challenged that and said, there's reaching for a kitchen knife for convenience but there's also legally being allowed to carry one by your side.

14:08So if a Christian, for example, was to say to you, why should you be allowed to carry one and we shouldn't be allowed? And also, what is the actual official legality in the UK about carrying? Well, in 2019, there was the law. I think it was in 88, somewhere around there, in Margaret Thatcher's government, which was put into law about certain items of religious items and the Karpan was one of them. It's the equality of belief, of religious belief. Now, under that equality, whatever we believed in or whatever Islamic people believed in or whatever Jewish people believed in or whatever Christian people believed in, that all comes underneath there.

14:51Now, this is not a knife. This is a part and parcel of our faith. It's not something we put in for fashion. It's part of the five Ks. And you know what? The interesting thing is, Churchill, one of the greatest prime ministers of the UK, look at his speeches. We're in debt to the Sikhs. In the time of the British Raj, ordinary Sikhs weren't, they didn't go to the army. They weren't in the police forces. It was requested by the British Raj that only those baptized Sikhs join the army, only baptized Sikhs become police because of the discipline side of things. So as there's provisions made for the Jewish, for the Islamic people, same as the Sikh faith.

15:48So there's provisions for the Jewish faith, for kosher, there's provisions for halal and the burqa and everything like that. And when they look at the Sikh faith, they see what the Sikh faith is, it's about the five Ks. I think the vast majority of British people have never really spent time with the Sikh community. On the whole, it's probably fair to say. I think there's a lot of people that didn't even know that you were legally allowed to carry the Kapan. So can you see how they would perceive that as a weapon? Under that law, we have the exemption to wear it. We don't have the exemption to use it.

16:25It's the exemption to wear it, not the exemption to use it. If we use it, then the law should prevail. So you are then and now a criminal. If you're stabbing someone or killing someone, you are a criminal. And to play devil's advocate, me as an atheist, if I was to find spiritual comfort by carrying a bladed article, which I didn't consider a weapon, but it could quite easily be used as a weapon, would you think that was fair game and I should be allowed to carry it if it brings me some kind of spiritual comfort. No, but it's everything else that goes with it, the spirituality, the meditation, everything.

17:06It's not just a, don't take this just out of proportion and say I'm spiritual now and put it. There's a whole practice behind it. So we just can't say, you know, I feel like I'm spiritual now. I can go. There's a whole practice behind it. I myself do two hours of meditation in the morning. I myself in the evening after 6 o 'clock when the sun goes down or whatever half an hour I myself the last thing I do at night you know there's a special line a very special line and I hope that everybody sort of listens to this line it's called you tell me your faith you tell me your spiritual practice that asks for the welfare of the whole of humanity, not just their own faith.

18:03In the name of God, may the whole of humanity prosper. And that includes the atheist. That includes every other faith. And we do this prayer three times, three times, whether in congregation or when we're doing it for yourselves. that line is read at the end of every prayer. May the whole of humanity prosper. I think this will still divide the audience's opinion on who should and shouldn't be allowed to carry a bladed article. But I don't think it would have ever been explained to them. It certainly hasn't me in the way that you've explained it. So I think I'll let the audience comment amongst themselves.

18:49Liam, if we look at the provisions, say, for the blade itself, and you're allowed for work, which people are allowed for work? The butchers? The chefs? Farmers? Carpenters? Forestry people? Now, how many butchers have actually used their butcher knife and killed people? I can tell you. But the thing is, they wouldn't be walking the streets allowed to carry... The bell will have it in their car. Just imagine if you have road rage, you're in a car, you've got your tool set. That can be used. But there's no other community that are allowed to carry it on their hip. The Scottish carries. And that's only a cultural thing.

19:30It's not a religious thing. And also, it was a Scottish lady that used it on someone. So there's been a case where a Scottish cultural knife has been used to take somebody's life. But you tell me where a carpaan has been used in the last hundred years to take somebody's life. Change are proudly sponsoring the channel. They're the UK's number one e-commerce mentoring program, taking you step by step through building your own business with no experience needed. I've seen their members make life-changing money and free up real time to spend with their families. Success doesn't happen overnight. You've got to put the work in.

20:08The more you put in, the more you get out. What really stands out is their community. It's ram-packed with like-minded people who genuinely support each other. You get one-on-one training, online courses and group seminars, so you're never left on your own. If you're serious about building something new for yourself, message Ryan on Instagram at RyanJB. So just to wrap this section up, because I want to move on to backlash and certainly some of the attacks that I've seen, which I'm outraged by, by the way. What would you say to people that are watching that even despite all you've said, still object to anybody, not just the Sikhs, being allowed to carry a bladed article?

20:47What would your final word on the matter be? My final word would be that's taking a fundamental right from our faith because it's a part of my makeup. It's my faith. So if you're taking something away from my faith, the equality issue goes out the window because other faiths allow to practice their religions in full faith and then we are now deprived of something which is a part of our faith. So the whole system has to change it. It's not just about the Kripan then. It's the quality of belief that goes out the window. Okay, now let's move on to the backlash. So I kept a close eye on the whole thing.

21:28I found it fascinating and I could see things from both sides. but the backlash towards the Sikh community, I mean, even Ray Charles could see that it was disproportionate. Yes. No ifs, buts or maybes. Some of the things I saw in writing was appalling. Some of the attacks I've seen have been outrageous, setting people on fire, for example. But, I mean, touching base on feelings, but I'm going to go there. To receive that much backlash as a community amongst yourselves, it must have been discussed privately around the table, in your place of worship. How did everybody actually feel about that? I think they felt let down by the community because of what the Sikhs have given within the years that they've been in this country.

22:19They've given, basically, they've assimilated within the community. We're probably the most law-abiding community in the country. We're the biggest givers in charity, and we're not millions and millions. There's about 600, 700 ,000 according to the figures. So we felt really, really let down as to why just one incident. It's like a match lighting a whole jungle up in flames and you're thinking, how the hell has that happened? Don't people have a brain? Can't people think? It's just one incident. It felt like, to me, it felt like, you know, when Lee Rigby got killed, it felt like everybody's eyes are now sort of on you.

23:09Now, I'm a comfortable person. You know what I mean? I'm well known. And even when I first stepped back into England, and this was many weeks afterwards, it was in the back of my mind as well. In your subconscious. In my subconscious. So can you imagine what the older women and men were feeling insecurities? They're feeling insecure. When they step outside the house, it's somebody looking at them. Nobody might be looking at them, but you get that. What you're now going to get in the comments, and I can guarantee, they'll start comparing this to how Muslims must feel after a terror attack, after someone's shouted Allah Akbar, after taking someone's life.

24:02Now I can see the distinct difference. Yeah, but when Digbar did the fatal stabbing, okay, he didn't shout, Vaheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Vaheguru Ji Ki Fateh, in the name of God I'm doing this. He didn't shout that. That was an incident which I think I'm glad that the full force of the law came down on him. And I still feel that probably wasn't enough for the crime and how it was done and how he lied throughout the whole court case. But when somebody shouts a name of a god before they do that, that's a totally different kettle of fish. And you know that you said that your community warned the authorities and spoke amongst yourselves about Diguar previously.

24:48So you knew he was a wrong one in your words, which is quite right. Is there anybody else in your community that you've got your eyes on that the public needs to be warned about? There definitely are, but I wouldn't want to name them as such because it just opens a whole new can of worms and stuff like that. But certain people, you know, there are two or three social media people that class themselves as spokesmen for Sikhs, but they're not any spokesmen for Sikhs. There are 300 Gurdwaras in the UK and none of them are allowed any stage on any Gurdwara. That shows you that the community don't want them.

25:29And going back to the attacks on the Sikh community. So I've seen video footage of recent attacks, which was pretty bad. I'm very surprised it didn't make the mainstream media. I'm very surprised. So I know that if that hasn't made the mainstream media, the chances are there's going to be more of that. So is there more attacks, violent attacks, against the Sikhs at the moment that we don't know about? As a community, up and down the country, the whole community is having a risk assessment about everything. They're literally having a risk assessment. There's literally meetings every week, every second week in temples.

26:06Now, what comes out of that risk assessment around the country is something which will be put in place so the community feels protected and safe. And since all of this has unfolded, how do Sikhs feel about Britain now and British culture? Has it changed? I don't think it's changed in that manner because we know there's bad apples in every community. We feel that the people who rioted in Southampton or the 20 or 30 arrests, that doesn't represent the whole community. Otherwise, I'd be falling into the same traps as the person who said cold rage. You've asked for cold rage in one case. Why aren't you asking cold rage in the other case?

26:49I don't politicise the system. I just call it what it is. I wonder if people know who you're talking about when you use the phrase cold rage. Well, I think everybody knows, understands who we're talking about here. But if you can ask for cold rage... Because Farage was put under pressure for saying that, wasn't he? Well, he should be. Because he's in a very prominent position. His every word will be listened to. And there are idiots out there that will take his, literally, his words and do something. And we know what's happened. You've got an elderly gentleman who's been set fire. You've got other things.

27:25Is that direct from the speech that he made? But if you can call that cold rage for that, why couldn't you call it for Chaz Corrigan, who did exactly the same thing as Digwa? Why couldn't you do it? So this is what I mean. Politicians will politicize certain things when they think it sort of benefits them. And they don't give a damn about the you and the me and how much fracture it causes in the community. I mean, grooming gangs. We as a community, I think we said it last time in 1997. We as a community, we're the first community to talk about rape gangs. An all-new season of the Hulu original series, The Secret Lives of Mormon Wives, is now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney+.

28:09Four years ago, we were just making TikToks. But it feels like there are no friendships left in MomTalk. You act like you're better than everyone. You're not. I can't trust anyone in this group. She's just dead to me. There's so much the public doesn't know. Watch the new season of the Hulu original series, The Secret Lives of Mormon Wives, Now streaming on Hulu and Hulu on Disney Plus for bundle subscribers. Terms apply. And we're back. Streaming on Peacock. May I present to you the award-winning staff of the Toledo Truth Teller. Slap me. Let's jar something loose. Ay, yes! I like that. The Certified Fresh Series returns.

28:44You're a boss. You always like this? Or is this just an act? Oh, no, this is mad. Oysters, everybody! There's a certain satisfaction when you work with someone. Maybe we could be a family. You sadistic pig! The Paper. New season streaming September 9th, only on Peacock. This show gives me a reason to laugh. Tommy Robinson. It's in his own words. He said he came to one of my talks. He was influenced by his talks. He was wowed by the talk that the Sikh community are doing so much. What are we doing for our own community? We were talking about it before it hit the media, before Andrew Norfolk was talking about it in The Times.