Are We The Baddies? (ft. guests Mahershala Ali & Rupert Friend, David Cronenberg, Gerard Johnstone)

20:17Chris Hewitt:anything else I've got it oh okay Brixton Law

20:26is he a bad guy I feel like Chris is leaving oh he's coming to have to shake a hand it's a manly shake it's a manly a manly shake from Chris Brixton Law from Hobson Shore I mean

20:42Chris Hewitt:we've overlooked the greatest of all franchises the Fast and Furious franchise which not only gives us Idris Elba Brixton Law as Brixton Law but gives us gives us Luke Evans although he's Welsh but I don't know if he's Welsh in the film he's not he's English isn't he it would have been Jason Statham on his first appearance yeah but it isn't after that which is a damn thing we should have lost the most evil British villains to just go with British villains that's true Deckard Shaw. He's so villainous in Fast and Furious 7. These are good villain names. They're no stack of Pentecosts, but A, he's not a villain, and B, I think he's played American, so.

21:21Chris Hewitt:No, he's not. He's English. We're caching the apocalypse. His mum's Helen Mirren. Not Pacific Rim, it's not. Pacific Rim. We're too Pacific Rim. Sorry, I'm still in Fast and Furious. How could I leave? Although, Helen Mirren's nationality is up for debate at the moment, given her mobland connections, but still. Hugh Grant in Paddington soon because he inflicts himself upon a Beruvian national. He's got up again. Although actually, no, wait, Paddington has been nationalized. It really depends when he was naturalized, doesn't it? Helen gets a handshake. It's like a Paul Hollywood handshake, isn't it?

21:58But who hasn't had a handshake? Oh. Yeah. Time to raise your game, James. I don't need your handshake. Come on, Dyer. I don't need your validation. James, I've never seen someone more furiously googling i've moved on to the news section i'm actually looking at headlines

22:14Chris Hewitt:that is such oh my god i thought i was going to win with the mic drop of bruce pain in passenger 57 who is the guy who makes wesley snipes say always bet on black oh but helen has swooped in at the last minute she has one-upped brixton law from hobson shaw she has one-upped colonel William blip blip blip from, yeah, The Patriot. She has one-upped whoever the fuck James said with Phoenix Buchanan in Paddington 2. Yeah. Hey. Yeah. The cad of all cats. Yes. Yeah. Absolutely. And yet we love him. We do. We love him so. He's all right. Oh, blimey. What a question. What a time to be alive. Yes. Happy Independence Day to our American listener.

23:04I hope you're having a great day.

23:05Chris Hewitt:Chad. And this reminds me of one of my favourite facts, which is which holiday is celebrated more than any other holiday all around the world? And the answer is independence from the UK. Yeah. God bless you guys. You really gave birth to a lot of holidays. That's cheating because you're amalgamating lots of different independence holidays. But yes, I get your point. That's what we have given the world more holidays. It's a gift. It's a gift. And any other country has given it. It's a gift. We are. It costs them most of their natural resources and many millions of lives in some cases. The best gifts aren't free, Helen.

23:35I think I don't think that's how gifts work right I have real concerns about your gift giving culture in your family I keep saying we

23:42Chris Hewitt:but I'm not I'm distancing myself from this I'm not English British when it suits you yes

23:50Chris Hewitt:I'm a floating voter in that regard but hey listen if we've made people around the world happy then I'm glad okay but you've also made people you know what we're gonna just leave it bygones Helen bygones read a history book bygones maybe more than one guys I'll have you know I have a first class degree in history. Well, then you know all about it. You've never shown it. Shall we have a guest? Let's. Who do you want? Do you want Rupert Friend? Do you want Mahershala Ali and Rupert Friend? Yes. Rupert Friend and Mahershala Ali are the stars of this week's Jurassic World Rebirth, which is a rejuvenation of the Jurassic Park slash Jurassic World franchise.

24:34Chris Hewitt:And they star in it as Duncan, who is a mercenary who is recruited by Rupert Friend's Martin Krebs. Gee, I wonder if he's a bad guy with a name like that. To go to a secret special island and do some business with dinosaurs. Not sexy business. And Jonathan Bailey and Scarlett Johansson and Ed Skrein and other people are along for the ride as well. and I sat down and talked with Mahershala Ali who is of course a double Oscar winning actor and Rupert Friend who is not but is very very good indeed about making this movie and shooting it on location in Thailand and being beset by all kinds of little beasties so had a lot of fun talking to them and I hope you guys enjoy it as well Rupert Friend and Mahershala Ali do please enjoy Mahershala, Rupert, welcome to the Apple Podcast Thank you for having us.

25:31Chris Hewitt:I've got some good news for you guys. I'm your last interview before lunch. Oh, right. All right. Don't pretend like you haven't been dreaming about food. It's like this man is in my brain right now. What's your lunch order? A little sandwich. A sandwich? Okay, just stock it up. Refueling for the afternoon. Exactly. Ripper, what about yourself? I believe it's a superfood salad that has been ordered. I don't even know what's in it, but it sounds pretty historic. Superfood makes me feel like they're tinkering with things they don't quite understand. Or he's going to be hungry in an hour and a half after lunch.

26:09Chris Hewitt:Yeah, he'll be looking at your sandwich an hour and a half and a half going, oh man, I wish I'd gone for the sandwich. That would have been the way to go. So guys, I think, I may be wrong about this, but you're both pretty much, I think, in the Jurassic Park sweet spot when the first one came out back in 1993. I still remember, I remember exactly where I was when I saw it back in 93. What about you both? Mahersh, what about yourself? I know I was, I was, I know essentially where I was, but I just. I'm a coordinator. Meaning, you know, I know where I was essentially living and experiencing life at that time in my first year of college.

26:48But yeah, I think I saw it with a bunch of my basketball buddies. And it was big. It just felt epic. in a time where there were a string of really big films, and a lot of them had Spielberg attached to them. And so it was kind of him feeling like he was on to the next adventure and sort of outdoing himself. And nothing felt larger than Jurassic Park at that time.

27:13Chris Hewitt:It was a pretty big deal. River, what about yourself? Because we had a wait over here in the UK. I don't know if you remember that. Everything was always a long time after America, right? Yeah. I don't remember how long, but it was always you'd hear of the film and then you'd have that kind of anticipatory. But I grew up in a tiny village in the Cotswolds without a cinema. So any cinematic event had sort of double import because you had to make a real trip to do it. And for me, Jurassic Park ignited a love of adventure and travel and exploration that I still have today. Oh, wow. You know, the sort of small town thing can do that.

27:50Some people get even more parochial. And in my case, that helicopter flying into the island, I was like, I'm going to be on that helicopter. I'm going to that island. And I'm also going to have this lifelong kind of itinerant sort of style of living. Yeah. I sort of, yeah, I attribute that to Jurassic.

28:10Chris Hewitt:That's amazing. So when you found yourself on a helicopter being whisked into a set or location on this movie. Yeah. That must have been pretty wild for you. I just heard the... and it's just like, oh, wow. It was great. Was there a moment in this movie, because I know Gareth, he very much likes to shoot on location and to throw things at you and throw you into the jungle and throw you into the swamp. Sounds like you were there. Well, I know how he works. And then he just assaults you with all sorts of animals and all sorts of stuff. Was there a moment in this when you realized, okay, obviously you know you're in a Jurassic Park movie or Jurassic World movie, but was there a moment when you really realize, oh, this feels like the real deal?

28:51Probably standing in five feet of water, walking through the mangroves. That'll do it. And being scared as a character and as a person. So it's coming up to what here? Just like, what is going to pop out this water? Are we safe? I'm freezing in here right now. But we were in it together. And where was this? Was this Thailand? This is Thailand. Okay. Yeah, the mangroves. and

29:14Chris Hewitt:and Rupert I read at Empire Magazine that you were told not to touch a certain bug so the same thing or a tree or something or yeah something on a tree there's like a it's like orangish or something and if we touched it it could like kill us some skin skin disease rotting rotting thing or something like but that sort of piece of cautionary advice would be given to you as you were standing next to it right about to reach oh what's this oh and that you don't touch and then you're thinking is that is there anything else we should talk about while we're in this swamp and then something swooshes to your legs and you're oh my god oh my god so literally something brushes past yeah yeah yeah I mean you can't tell the animals to guys we're filming you know can we get a lock up it doesn't work like that does that then feed into your characters because your characters are very very different people Kincaid and Krebs and on the surface they're they're kind of both motivated by the same thing on the surface which is money and and the acquisition of such but there's more going on with Kincaid certainly Krebs, what's driving him in that moment?

30:21I think he's one of those slightly perhaps confused, conflicted people who has told themselves that what they're doing is in some way altruistic or philanthropic but that inevitably gets overtaken by just out and out greed I think and we see that a fair amount in the sort of westernized capitalism society that we live in. And to me, he just personifies that dichotomy where I think he's pretty cutthroat and don't think there's anything he wouldn't do to sort of complete this mission. He's like, just going to do it at all costs. Because as I've said, you know, the other characters definitely have someone or something to live for.

31:01I don't know that he does, which is why I found him a little bit of a tragic figure to me.

31:06Chris Hewitt:But yeah, yeah, very much. But Duncan, has something to live for. Well, I think Duncan has perspective and I think he's, and it's voiced in the film itself. And I think what Rupert is speaking to a bit is that his character stuff is not necessarily voiced in the film, you know? And so I think because of a tragedy that Duncan and his family have experienced, I think it definitely impacts how he sees the world and the purpose of life, how to live it, how it should be lived, what you should even be going for. So as much as he is happy to make money, wants to make money, and is down to help Zora complete this task, also feel like not too deep in the recesses of his mind, he's very clear about the fact that this is all temporary.

32:01Chris Hewitt:very much so so is that all going through your brains and going back to the idea of being in the swamp in the mangroves in Thailand does that all feed into how your characters act in that environment as well you know Duncan is a hard bitten you know soldier he's been there he's seen it all Krebs is perhaps a little bit more given to voicing his fears in that environment so that feeds in nicely But Duncan actually voices that. I'm not dying in this jungle. Yeah. So it's like he doesn't like the jungle for any literally voices because anything can pop out at you at any given moment. So considering that he's someone who's used to putting himself into compromising situations, this is kind of this is the thing he enjoys the least is being in a jungle of all places where anything can get you at any moment.

32:59You know, so ideally, I think he wants this to be his last job. I really think he wants what's appealing about this job is that it offers an opportunity for him to retire and to not be doing this work anymore so that he can live the very advice that he gives Zora in the film. Absolutely. Is he dreaming of a sandwich as well? Yes, yes. And, you know, maybe a super salad. But he definitely wants, like, you know, a sandwich. He wants some bread. What would Krebs' lunch order be, Robert? Krebs? Oh, God, he'd probably have something flown in. Some beluga caviar or something on ice with a special little spoon.

33:44And he wouldn't share it. No, no, he wouldn't. He'd eat it all, even if everyone else was hungry.

33:49Chris Hewitt:No. He'd have seconds. Yeah, exactly. Two seconds flowing in. What a man. I know, what a guy. Lord love him. I've got to let you guys go in a second, but can we talk about your dinosaur co-stars? And how much of it was CG? How much of it was animatronic? And did that help? I would say 99 % of it was CG. Okay. We didn't even see reference images, to be perfectly honest. Oh, wow. We had a lot of dirty tennis balls on sticks. Yeah. a couple crosses on a blue bit of cloth. That's kind of it, really. Oh, no, we did also, there were these amazing kind of puppeteers that did the gas station sequence.

34:31Chris Hewitt:Yeah. The aqualapse. Which was, I was, oh, and then her as well. Yeah, yeah. I saw Dolores outside. There was a guy with her in a bag. Oh, really? Yeah, it looks pretty. Yeah, it is. Yeah, so what are you drawing on whenever you're reacting to a 99 % CG? You know, you know what's amazing about one of the things that's amazing about the film, which I think is a testament to Gareth and the cast is that it feels like we're all in the same movie, which we can very easily not be in the same movie because we're not all reacting to the same thing. it's it's you're seeing my interpretation of being afraid of a tennis ball right and so you put those together with a collective an ensemble of people and like different people could have very different reactions to that tennis ball and so the fact that i think we all feel appropriately and equally terrified i think is is a real accomplishment in in really telling the story of this film and helping it to move along to its finish.

35:36Chris Hewitt:And the eye lines as well. Yeah, 100%. Like everyone's looking in a different direction. Like I can see why actors I love sometimes are not great in these type of like big films where there's a lot of green screen or whatnot. And it made on the day shooting it, I felt how hard it was. I was like, oh, this is why that happens. Like I really thought that like several times because it felt so difficult to stay disciplined with my own imagination around what I was reacting to. Like I'm not working with Rupert in this moment or with Johnny. We're together in the same space reacting to something. Does that make sense?

36:14Chris Hewitt:Yeah, to the tennis ball-asaurus. Yeah, exactly. Absolutely. That evil tennis ball. Guys, glad I let you go. Enjoy your lunch. Thank you. Enjoy your superfood salad. Thank you. What are you having? I'm going to McDonald's. I work for Empire. that's all I can afford that's what it is guys thanks a lot thank you so much great experience thank you okay that was Mahershala Ali and Rupert Friend and we'll be talking about Jurassic World Rebirth later on in the show it's why Dan's here hello quite frankly what? that's why you're here oh yeah you were on set and stuff oh yeah I saw all the saws you saw all the saws yeah okay I saw raptors that then got cut out of the film pretty much yes Yes, yes, yes.

37:01Chris Hewitt:Very much so. And we're also going to be doing a Jurassic World Rebirth spoiler special immediately after this. All right, let's talk about movie news. What has been happening in the world of movie news, folks? First look-wise, we did get the first trailer for Edgar Wright's Running Man. I'm so excited. Very exciting. So I've had, not consternation about this, because I do trust Edgar Wright as a filmmaker, but I, and I may be in a relatively exclusive club here, I have massive affection for the Schwarzenegger Running Man. and I know this is a very very different beast but obviously you know it comes from the same place but this looks so fucking good so good I really really want to see it that said and I wanted to ask you a question because you are the running man whisperer if you will Chris so certainly as the trailer begins it leans quite heavily into the game show elements of it which for me is quite resonant of the Schwarzenegger film but I wonder is that actually representing the substance of this film well why would you think I would know that and even if I did know that I'm pretty sure a terrifying NDA would prevent me from telling you about it.

38:06Chris Hewitt:I see. But no, if you've read the Richard Bachman slash Stephen King novel on which this is based then that's the film I think pretty much. There will be changes along the way but the game show element it's not episodic but it follows Glenn Powell as Ben Richards who is a man, he's a desperate man and he's got a wife and a sick child and he needs money. This is a futuristic, dystopian futurescape that Stephen King wrote back in, when was it? 1982? Something like that, yeah. We had this argument on the pod recently. I can't remember exactly when it was, but I think it was 79, actually. He wrote this in, and he set this in the year 2025.

38:46Chris Hewitt:What year is it now? Oh, it's fine. I'm sure it's nothing to worry about. Yeah, he was bang on the money with a lot of this stuff, but this is set in a slightly distant future. dystopian future and he needs money for medicine for his kid and the only way he can do it really is to go on a game show to earn some money by being humiliated or being hurt there are a number of game shows that this network called The Network Shows on Freebie which is King's version of TV in this case but he ends up going on The Running Man which is the deadliest game show of them all the idea is if you can survive out in the wild being hunted down by a group of elite hunters and also anyone else, literally anyone, if they spot you, they are allowed to shoot you and claim a reward.

39:34Chris Hewitt:If you can survive for 30 days, you will win a huge, huge cash prize. If you don't, you get bubkis. So that is the premise of the movie. Glenn Powell plays Ben Richards, who was the Arnold Schwarzenegger character in the 1987 movie, directed by Starsky or Hutch. I think it was Starsky, right? David Soul was Hutch? Sure. I think that's right. And I have a soft spot for that movie too. Liz is much more faithful to the Backman slash King book. So I guess the game show elements will be fairly front-loaded. And they will be with Glenn Powell as he is on the run. Because you've got Coleman Domingo here as the host.

40:10And it seems flamboyant in the kind of Killian-esque model. Yes. But yeah, I suspect you're right. Even the trailer has that structure. It does have it at the front. Yeah, you're absolutely right.

40:18Chris Hewitt:Yeah, and there's a lot of breakneck action as Glenn Powell goes on the run. Fun stuff with the water pistol. looks like a lot of really enjoyable set pieces. I absolutely agree. But I think it also does look like a change in evolution for Edgar and for Glenn Powell a little bit as well. It looks like there's definitely some humor in it. There's definitely still, judging by the trailer, some of the very precise rhythmic cutting that Edgar does so well. But also, it does feel like it has much more of a kind of panicked edge, obviously, maybe given the material, than even something like Baby Driver did.

40:54Maybe even than Last Night in Soho did. So I'm just really interested to see where they go with this, you know? It just feels... Darker is too easy a word, but like a little bit darker maybe than a lot of stuff Edgar's done and a lot of stuff that Glenn Powell's done recently.

41:08Chris Hewitt:And I think just by the very nature of the Beast, once he is on the run, once he is ejected from the running man, because in the Arnold movie, they adapted it so that it was in a subterranean compound beneath the game show set. Gladiators. Yeah. Here is Sub-Zero. Now, plane Zero. But now the whole world or at least all of America is the game board for Ben Richards. So the minute that happens, I don't think it lets up from that point on. I will say I haven't seen it. And even if I had, I wouldn't be able to tell you, but I have not seen it. But that is my understanding. I saw Edgar Wright this weekend at Glastonbury.

41:47and he was looking, you know, very happy with how things were going. Yes, very serene. Very, positively glowing. I do wonder though, like obviously, we've had the previous version, but we've also had, you know, the Purge movies, and we've had a brilliant film, which I think more people should see, called Series 7, The Contenders. Yeah, good film. Very, very sort of similar. Hunger Games even? Hunger Games. Squid Game. Squid, exactly. So, it kind of feels like this. Battle Royale. Yes. yes exactly so it kind of feels that this coming after all of those it's got to do something you're worried about John Carter syndrome and the thing that inspired everybody else becoming looking like it was inspired by that very well yes exactly that yeah I don't think so I've got faith in Edgar yeah I'm glad actually yeah although I did kind of like there was a little touch there was a little bit of hitman in the trailer where he puts a moustache on and has a little disguise so yeah I think we're going to get a bit of that Powell charm.

42:51Chris Hewitt:Looks very, very good. That is out later on in the year. Out next year, though, is a film called Project Hail Mary. Did anyone see the trailer for this? I did! The new film from Phil Lord and Christopher Miller to give them his full title. The directors of many, many wonderful films, including 21 Jump Street, 22 Jump Street, Bits of Solo, and The Lego Movie. And of course, well, they weren't directors of that, but they were the driving creative forces behind the Spider-Verse movies. They are absolutely brilliant. What did you make of this trailer, which has Ryan Gosling as a science teacher who finds himself becoming an astronaut who seems to be the only person who can save humanity?

43:32I don't really understand that bit. I'm sure it will be explained in the movie. He's not an astronaut. No, I get that. He says that many times in the trailer. I think maybe like 20-something times in that one trailer. It's a spiritual successor to Armageddon. Yeah, well, no. but I think I have the book and I haven't read it yet much to my shame I will be correcting that

43:50Chris Hewitt:Oh you can just give yourself a couple of hours at the end of this I'm reading Dungeon Crawler Carl at the moment and I'm having a great time so it's going to be really hard to put that down and read anything else but Project Hail Mary is very much on my list but this is from the guy of course who wrote The Martian Yes So instantly it has kind of a pass for me I'm going to I think I'm going to love it Oh I think you said a pass for me Oh no a pass as in like he has a pass for life Sure He could write any old shit and I'd probably watch it and read it because someone say he has I love hey because I love The Martian so much I did not like The Martian did you not you didn't like The Martian I liked the film oh but the book is so good too no I did not get on with that book you're a fool but I thought I thought the movie was how it should be experienced the movie is a great movie the movie is an absolute just glorious comfort watch it is confidence porn at its finest I might watch it now could not love it enough just sack off the podcast and watch The Martian let's do that let's just go and watch The Martian let's watch The Martian and it just recalled us watching it.

44:46Chris Hewitt:Two hours later. Wow, that was fun, wasn't it, guys? Anyway, this also looks immense fun. It looks like Ryan Gosling having a whale of a time. And when Ryan Gosling has a good time on screen, you get films like The Nice Guys, you get films like Barbie, and everybody then has a great time watching it. So my theory is more directors should give Ryan Gosling a good time. I beg your pardon? I said what I said. Lord and Miller, this looks good. Don't you think? I think it looks great. I mean, it's got elements of other movies in there as well. There's a bit of, weirdly enough, the Adam Sandler movie, Spaceman from last year.

45:21Chris Hewitt:Yes, I thought of that too. And the trailer. I think there's something they give in the trailer that I would rather they had not given away. Yeah, that was too much. Yeah, we won't say what it is, but you'll find out for yourself. People listening to this, by the way, are going to be shouting at their podcast devices of choice going, you fucking idiots, why are you not talking about Chris Nolan's The Odyssey trailer? Why aren't we? Because we haven't seen it. Because we're not allowed to. Because Chris only wants us to see it in cinemas. that's true that is true early on IMAX and yes it's been playing ahead of Jurassic World Rebirth Jurassic World but we all saw Jurassic World Rebirth before it came out in cinemas so we haven't had a chance to see it yet I nearly went to see Jurassic World Rebirth this morning just so I could see the Odyssey trailer in case it was on UK prints I'm not sure whether it is or not the fact that you didn't can be considered professional neglect well I was fucking busy doing my job wow hey Chris let's check out our local later okay but I've read descriptions of it and it sounds good so there we go yeah the whole thing sounds good it does sound good I mean it's Christopher Nolan it is doing the Odyssey yeah I'm in yeah I am shocked when is your Christopher Nolan book coming out it's coming out in October everybody and I wish I could say more about the Odyssey and the book but I had to write it mostly before the Odyssey was even announced just to remind us the title is Why Christopher Nolan is My Best Friend by Dan.

46:44Chris Hewitt:No, it's Please, Please, Please, Please, Please Be My Best Friend Christopher Nolan by Danny Jolin, aged 33. I think it's just called Iconic Director's Christopher Nolan. Okay. Not even a colon. Jimbo, do you have anything you want to talk about? We could talk about the begonia trial, but I don't fully understand it. Oh, that's the one where Emma Stone might or might not be an alien. Don't know. And Jesse Plemons might or might not be onto something or might be a completely crazy person who's obsessed with bees. This is a new film from Jorgus Lanthimos who has gone out in a limb by casting Emma Stone.

47:18And before I watched the trailer I knew nothing about this film. Now that I've watched the trailer I know nothing about this film. I don't know what it's about. I don't understand it. I'm entirely lost.

47:26Chris Hewitt:My understanding is and I will grant you this is not entirely apparent from the trailer is that Jesse Plemons and someone else who's in the trailer I can't remember who it is. I forget his name. kidnap Emma Stone who's like a high-flying CEO because they think that she's an alien and a harbinger of an alien invasion of Earth. And then either she is or either she isn't. Yes, that's what I understood as well. Yeah, that's where the caundry of the film lies. But because this is Yorca's Lanthimos, weird shit is going to happen. Is this before or after they send Ryan Gosling into space? I believe the two are linked.

48:00Chris Hewitt:It's the Emma Stone-Ryan Gosling connection. So she hands off to him. They're both La La Land sequels, right? Undoubtedly. Then I'm out. No longer interested. Whatever. Well, hey, what's he trying to do? What's he trying to get in Project Hail Mary? Hell's Bells. Another day of sun. Isn't he really? That's good. That's actually quite good. That was clever. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. We'll allow that. See? See, Dan can say nice things about me from time to time. Here's one. Here's a bit of casting news that is very, very exciting. Okay. Kenneth Branagh. Branagh, Branagh.

48:40Chris Hewitt:has joined a cast of... Do you guys know this? Don't think so, no. Oh, it's exciting. Guess. Dune. No, not Dune. The Odyssey. Harry Potter TV show. I've never seen a one-track mind. That's more just obstinately one-track than James'. And you would think it would change because tracks in the sand usually do change. But no, one track through the dunes. Always. He's gone Dune. you've got a Harry Potter TV show that wouldn't make any sense because he was already Gilderoy Lockhart I know I know he was oh Dan I said the Odyssey which made sense you said the Odyssey but the Odyssey I mean it's halfway through they're still shooting they'll be shooting for like 16 more months it's fine will they?

49:21I mean they might miss a release date they might but like it's a very very very long shoot

49:26Chris Hewitt:it's just 20 hours of Christopher Nolan you'll get it when you get it yeah and you'll like it when you do James Bond no not James Bond he has been he has joined Kenneth Branagh Kenneth Branagh has joined the cast of The Devil Wears Prada 2 which has begun filming in the States for a May release date I'm so excited the original cast at least those who didn't die in the original in a shower of bullets in the bloodthirsty finale in which the devil wore Prada as a skin they're all back Cassius. This is genuinely quite cool news. I think that could be a really interesting... What's the premise? Do we know?

50:11No idea whatsoever.

50:13Chris Hewitt:Anne Hathaway. But, yes. Meryl Streep is back. So apparently... Is he the devil? No. Jesus Christ. He's also not the devil. Emily Blunt is back, as is Stanley Tucci. You can't not have the Tucci. Couldn't not, no. Stanley Tucci, who of course is Emily Blunt's brother-in-law in real life. what a wild turn their lives to a Captain Land movie so the first one came out with 2006 sounds about right David Frankel Kenneth Branagh is going to be playing Miranda Priestly the Meryl Streep character's husband I'm so glad you finished that sentence because I was really I was like wow this is taking an odd turn I mean it has range but my god there's recasting and then there's recasting and apparently it's going to be about her tackling because she's the editor-in-chief of Runway Magazine or she was when last we saw her tackling and I don't know if this is something that any of us can relate to the downward trend in magazines around the world.

51:04Oh my God, but this ties in amazingly to like last week's news. You all saw last week's news, right? That Anna Wintour is stepping down as editor-in-chief of Vogue. But she is remaining head of like editorial content in this kind of nebulous, amazing role. And she has ensured that the new person coming into her old role will not be the editor-in-chief. She is canonically, after 38 years, is going to be the last editor-in-chief of Vogue US as things stand, right? She has absolutely defeated all comers for her job for nearly four decades, stepped up on her own terms and ensured that whoever comes after her will literally work for her.

51:47If they do not build that into this film, they have missed the biggest trick in the world.

51:53Chris Hewitt:Just like the white witch in The Lion, the Witch in the Wardrobe, she has ensured an endless winter. Hey! Thank you. Thank you very much, dude. Thank you. That's two clever jokes in the last five minutes. I'm feeling quite dizzy. I don't know what's happening to me. Is there no Narnia news? There's no Narnia news, but she also, in real life, Anna Wintour, she also, as part of this stepping down from Vogue, has ensured that she will be in perpetuity. Did you notice? This is amazing. She's going to be the magazine's tennis editor and also their theatre editor, thus ensuring herself the cushiest of gigs for the rest of her career.

52:26She's a big tennis fan and is like besties with Roger Federer. I mean, she is living the dream as far as I'm concerned. She's amazing. She is. And by the way, can we just take a moment to appreciate that she is very widely known to have inspired the Meryl Streep character just to be very clear. I am aware of this. But also, she wore Prada to the premiere which she attended.

52:49Chris Hewitt:So, Bernardo's going to be in this. I bring this up because I saw The Devil Wears Prada musical with my wife the other day. With Vanessa Williams still in it? No, Vanessa Williams is not my wife Follett is my wife but Vanessa Williams was in the play I literally finished the sentence I know okay alright you had the joke in the chamber look at that the world weariness how quickly it comes back Helen even after you've been away listen I do two clever jokes I'm allowed a dumb one I think that's the ratio okay okay did you enjoy the show Chris? you know what I did so it's based on the film obviously the songs are by Elton John you know none of them are sticking in my head particularly but I enjoyed them as they were happening is at the Dominion Theatre in London Vanessa Williams is playing Miranda Priestly the interesting thing about it is have you seen this play yet?

53:34Chris Hewitt:Not yet I suppose the interesting thing about it is that and I guess this is a bit like the movie where Meryl Streep is you know nominally the star even though she's not the lead character by any stretch of the imagination that's definitely the case here with the Miranda Priestly character but also I don't think she gets any banger songs which is really interesting all the belting stuff all go to Andy who I think is played by a phenomenal actress called Georgie Buckley I think that's right but I enjoyed it we enjoyed it it was a rollicking good time at the theatre some nice fun stuff going on some decent songs yeah goodnight so my devil wears Prada love my devil wears Prada love has been rekindled hurrah I'm sure they'll be relieved I wonder if Adrian Grenier is just watching his phone going ring please please God ring and this is very very sad news indeed we've lost one of the best composers of all time this week Lalo Schifrin the phenomenal composer of quite frankly some of the most famous movie scores and TV scores of all time passed away at the age of 93 he was behind the scores for the likes of Cool Hand Luke and Bullet and Enter the Dragon and George Lucas' THX 1138 the Amityful Horror the Rush Hour trilogy fairly recently my beloved Dirty Harry but I think he is most famous for arguably I'd say maybe this is one of the most the top 10 most famous themes of all time TV or film TV or film that's right it's going for gold Mission Impossible my word it's a banger it really is a banger as are many of the others to be fair but just such an incredibly long career of music judging by all of the tributes you know posted on social media and so on over the last week or so or a few days I guess he was someone who was very you know open and welcoming to younger composers younger directors you know taking the time out to talk to people and share the wisdom of his experience and talk about his incredible career but yeah I mean amazing amazing life amazing career amazing body of work and body of music to leave us with very much so never won an Oscar was nominated six times but never won which is shame on you shame on you Oscar but there we go the great Lalo Schifrin who passed away last week at the age of 93 it is New Empire Day today and we will take the next couple of minutes to plug it shamelessly but not as in depth as we once did because we have a entirely different show for that which is called The Shameless Plug in which I sit down with Nick Dissembling and we go through the issue in all its glory.

56:27Chris Hewitt:But what is on the cover? Hells Bells or Jimbo or indeed Dan? Well, crucially, this is an issue that you can find in the dark. So that's important. How can you do that? Well, because it is a Tron Ares cover and we have a limited run of light up covers which glow like light cycles. Light cycle up covers? It looks like magic light cycle up covers. Light up. Light up. So you can find them in the dark. If you have a choice. You do have a choice. Although you have to press the cover in a specific place. Oh, Dan, you ruin everything. So if it was dark, you wouldn't... So what you're saying is you'd need to find it before you could find it in the dark.

57:02Yeah, you'd have to have your thumb poised over the button. Dan, this is the reason we don't have you on the podcast. Okay, but think it through, right? You're reading in bed, right? And you fall asleep and the lights go out because they're probably motion activated or something. And then you're like, you wake up... Is that a thing? I'm creating a scenario where this is useful, okay? Right, okay. And then you wake up in the middle of the night, you need to go to the loo or you forgot to brush your teeth or something. And then all you have to do is just press the cover. It lights up. It lights your way to the loo.

57:30And then you ride it like a light cycle to the bathroom. But it's red. It's red. You can try. It's not a very bright light. Yes, all the better. It's cool. It looks good, but it's not bright. I wouldn't use it to, you know, to navigate my way through tunnels or something. All the better to not upset your circadian rhythm and throw you off so you won't wake up totally. You'll be able to get back to sleep. You don't want blue light in the middle of the night. You want that nice red glow. Come on, people. Think it through.

58:01Chris Hewitt:Would you use it to cast a sultry pall over your love, Megan? I mean, you'd have to... Do you know what? You'd have to keep putting the button on the cover, though. How long does it last? You'd have to keep reaching over. How long does the button last? Well, she was saying, press the button. Press the button. I need you to understand how seductive the face Chris was making there at the beginning of this discussion was. It was genuinely terrifying and deeply upsetting. But that's not all inside this incredible issue. What else is inside there? Well, I spoke to Bob Odenkirk and Sharon Stone about Nobody 2.

58:31Chris Hewitt:That's exciting. We have a feature on the Thursday Murder Club. We have a feature on the life of Chuck chatting with Tom Hiddleston. We have a feature on Alien Earth. Let me see what else we have features on. We have features on many, many wonderful things. Nine Inch Nails, as in Trent Reznor and Atticus Ross. basically talking about their movie work The Naked Gun the Liam Neeson reboot and Materialist which is a three way not like that with Dakota Johnson Pedro Pascal and Chris Evans that's very very exciting indeed Nick Offerman is A Pint of Milk I did that did you? he was brilliant I imagine he was absolutely brilliant I imagine he was we have first looks at the first look at Quaritch Stephen Lang slang in Avatar Fire and Ash we have a first look at Predator Badlands and Freakier Friday and Darren Aronofsky's new movie Caught Stealing.

59:23Chris Hewitt:In my section, the best section, the final cut section, we have an in-depth chat with Jesse Armstrong. We rank the movies of 1995 and we have more stuff in there on Andor and there are many, many other great things. There's a lot of great stuff inside the issue. It is an absolute belter. It's on sale right now at All Good, Evil, Virtual or even Dark News Agents because you don't need light because this will provide all the light you need metaphorically and actually. So there we go. Hooray. There we go. Pick it up right now. Please pay our wages, you absolute. No. Okay. Should we have a second guest?

1:00:03Chris Hewitt:Let. Who do you want? Do you want... Who's left? David Cronenberg. Do you want David Cronenberg? Yes, yes. Oh, David Cronenberg. David Cronenberg is a legendary director of... We just start saying David Cronenberg films now, don't we? The Fly. The Fly. Dead Ringers. James? Scanners Scanners Crash Xistens Xistens Oh, Xistens That was an out there choice It was a great one I'm going to go with Nightbreed even though he didn't direct him And of course Nightbreed Because he's in it He's in it Rabid Shivers Star Trek Discovery Star Trek Discovery Oh yeah, he was good in that He was nearly the director of Beverly Hills Cop and Flashdance That would have been wild Dangerous Method Dangerous Method History of Violence Yeah Oh, good stuff.

1:00:49Chris Hewitt:Eastern Promises. Stop. Fucking hell, he's good, isn't he? He is. Even if he hasn't seen Jurassic Park, the guy knows his way. He hasn't seen Jurassic Park. I haven't listened to this interview yet. I hope that Mike Munster asks him, have you seen Jurassic Park? I would be so, so tickled. He is back this week. He's in his 80s now, David Cronenberg. He's back this week with a new film called The Shrouds, which is in some senses faintly semi-autobiographical or uncertainly inspired by his life to an extent. Sadly, his wife passed away a couple of years ago. And this is about a man played by Fanson Cassell who is dealing with that grief in a very, very interesting, very Cronenbergian way.

1:01:35Chris Hewitt:He has essentially built and created a tech that allows you to look in on your loved ones in their grave so you can see their decomposing corpse in real time. And a lot of shit happens from that very simple Cronenbergian premise. We were delighted to speak to the man. He's an absolute legend. And Mike Munser was lucky enough to talk to him on Zoom a week or so ago. And here you go. Here is that interview. Enjoy. It is my great pleasure to welcome David Cronenberg to the Empire Podcast. Hello, David. Hi, how are you? Really good, thank you. How are you doing? Very well, thanks. Tell us a little bit about The Shrouds and for people who don't know, the kind of the origin, I suppose, of this idea and where it came from.

1:02:22Yeah. Well, I think it's reasonably well known that there's a fairly large autobiographical element in the story of this movie. my wife of 43 years died in 2017 and I had many reactions to that death that I could never have anticipated really she was sick for quite a while and so you know it was obvious that she was going to die before I was but once the actual death happened and the burial happened I was struck by a lot of feelings that ultimately ended up being the basis of this movie. Primarily, just to be straightforward, the idea that is talked about by the lead character played by Vincent Cassell, that when she was being lowered into the grave in her coffin, I really wanted to be in that coffin with her.

1:03:26It was a very strong, very visceral, real feeling, not an abstract feeling. I physically wanted to be in there with her, and that really surprised me. And I thought, will Being a filmmaker, of course, I thought, well, what would happen if somebody really wanted to act on that impulse? Obviously, he cannot get into the coffin with his dead wife because he would die very quickly himself, so that wouldn't be a solution. So I came up with a character who, although his hair is similar to my hair, is not meant to be me. and he's a high-tech entrepreneur and his creativity is all focused through high-tech innovation and experimentation and so on.

1:04:18He owns a restaurant, he owns a cemetery that he has created, a very special cemetery. And that cemetery was invented because he had the same impulse that I did, but he did something different. I made a movie about it and he made a cemetery about it. How was the experience then for you? Obviously, this came from such a personal, emotional place. Was it a difficult movie to make in that regard? Or was it sort of cathartic? How was that experience for you? The thing is that once you start to write a script, and you've decided that you will deal with this in a script form first, it becomes fiction.

1:04:54It's no longer about you and your wife and your family at all. It really, although it might be, as we might say, inspired by it or induced by it. But it becomes fiction. And you want it to be fiction. You don't want it to be, I don't want to limit my characters to me. I want them to go out onto the world and have their own experience of the world. And you want your characters to become a lot. And when they do that, they start to say things that you didn't expect them to say. and they start to do things that you didn't even want them to do because it's spoiling your idea of the narrative, but you go along with them.

1:05:33And that's how you know your script is alive and that's how you know that your movie will have a life that's quite separate from your life and that's what you want. Would you say this is your most personal movie in your career? Have any other films kind of been inspired as directly from your own experiences and life as this film? Yeah, The Brood, which is a movie I made many, many years ago, was about a divorce and a child being in the center of that divorce. And I had gone through a divorce and had a child. So that, I would say, was my closest to being autobiographical. But there is a real sense that it's true that every film that I've made is autobiographical in some way, even if it seems very unlikely, because it comes out of the context of your life, your culture, your education, your experience of films, your experience of life, your understanding of what the human condition is.

1:06:35And that's really, to me, what all art is about. It's an exploration of the human condition. What is it like to be a human being now as I create this thing? The film starts with that really powerful line, which feels very Cronenbergian, I suppose. Grief rots your teeth, right? This idea that kind of, and this is something you've explored in so many of your films, including The Brood, that idea that a kind of emotional kind of feeling in some way can manifest physically. Again, is that something that, did that come purely as a kind of storytelling device for you? Is that something that you yourself felt while you were grieving?

1:07:11Oh, no, I think it's completely physiologically accurate. I mean, you know, for me, the body, as is the mantra in my last movie, Crimes of the Future, body is reality. And how we perceive reality, how we understand reality, all has to do with our body, the way our eyes work, the way our brain works. And so inevitably, your emotional state is a physical state, and it is generated by your body, by hormones, by all of the fluids and devices that the body has to communicate amongst the cells in your body and your neurons, the electricity in your body. I mean, the body is partly, it's quite digital, actually.

1:08:00It's quite interesting. It's an on and off switch kind of thing. So it's inevitable that mental states will manifest as physical states and vice versa. So it's all integrated. It makes perfect sense, really. You only come into a problem there if you do believe in the sort of a soul or a spirit that is separate from the body somehow. And then you might think, well, things can happen in that soul that don't affect the body and so on. But I don't believe that when I think of the body, soul, mind as one entity, very complex, and everything affects everything. So it's not a stretch. I don't think it's sci-fi at all to depict that in my movies.

1:08:44Absolutely. You obviously have always had this kind of fascination with the body and particularly kind of body horror in the kind of early half of your career. You then kind of went slightly away from it. And it feels as though you've kind of slightly come back to it with Crimes of the Future and Now the Shrouds. Has that kind of fascination with particularly the body in your stories kind of come back to you in recent years? Well, I honestly don't think it's ever gone away. It's just a matter of balance, you know? I mean, if you see a period piece, one of the few, I've really only done two, I think, what could be called period pieces, a dangerous method about Sigmund Freud and Carl Jung.

1:09:24But even there, it's all about body. And they're endlessly talking about body and bodily manifestations of mental states and so on. But there it's meant to be a little more, shall we say, more realistic and less science fiction. But to me, it's the same. It's the same discussion. Because I think that is the human condition, you see. So I'm endlessly exploring that because I think it's endlessly fascinating. Has it been a sort of blessing or a curse, I suppose, in that you became known as the king of body horror, you know, Cronenbergian horror, when you then went off to do sort of slightly different types of projects like Cosmopolis, like a dangerous method, you know?

1:10:11That hasn't really seemed to be a problem. I mean, I really think the whole body horror thing is a critic's device. device it's a handy way to you know encapsulate something that the critics think i've done that's unique it doesn't to me it doesn't really describe what i'm doing at all but i barely know what it really means but uh but it's handy and and as usual it's more like um a marketing device it's you know it's a whole you know coralie fargia is doing body horror like kronenberg you know it's an easy way to market a film and to position it, but it doesn't really address the creative impulse that created the film.

1:10:52So it's of limited use to me. And fortunately, I have not had the problem of being sort of confined within the genre of horror filmmaking. I've certainly made films that are absolutely horror films, but I've made a lot of films that are other genre, like History of Violence and so on, Eastern Promises, or definitely gangster movies. And then movies that you can't really classify, like Dead Ringers, let's say, or Cosmopolis. They're not really a category. And I haven't had, I mean, independent filmmaking has always been difficult in terms of financing, because you're talking about movies that are not the most commercial movies in the world.

1:11:38And sometimes, of course, when your career is starting and not very well known. So it's always been difficult to plan into independent films and it continues to be. But I haven't found that being trapped within the crypt of body horror has been a problem. It really hasn't been. And obviously linked to that fascination with the body has also been sex. That's been very present in all of your movies, all the way up until The Shrouds. When I think about movies like Crash in the mid-90s and that really quite extreme, controversial reaction to that film, do you think that people's views on sex in cinema have changed?

1:12:16Have we gotten more puritanical? Have we gotten more liberal in terms of what we see on screen these days? It might be difficult to make a universal assessment of that that really fits everywhere, because so many different cultures. I mean, you can imagine showing a film in, let's say, Saudi Arabia is going to be different from showing a film in Italy just because of the cultural difference. But I can say specifically when Crash first came out in 1996, it was considered outrageous. One English critic, a very famous English critic, has said that this is a film beyond the bounds of depravity, which I thought was a great advertising line.

1:13:05And then not too long ago, we came out with a 4K version of the film and we screened it at the Venice Film Festival. The audience there was very young, very enthusiastic, and they were totally not shocked. They were totally not enraged and angry. And they all stayed for the Q &A and they They were very sweet and very receptive. And so I have to say that, you know, the difference between that Cannes Film Festival in 1996 and this screening, what, 30 years later, I guess, does indicate some shift in, at least in those countries, in the West, let's say, in Europe, in North America, a shift in understanding and awareness and a much more easier, a much more easy relationship with sex and sexual imagery than there was when Crash first came out.

1:14:01How often do you go back and revisit some of your old work, you know, for example, like Crash or going back as far as movies like Shivers, Rabbid, you know, do you revisit them often? And what are your thoughts when you do revisit them? Well, I don't revisit them. I mean, I have a real resistance to looking at my old films. I mean, we just did a screening in New York City of shivers because it's his 50th anniversary. I mean, this has been a century since I made it. Congratulations. Thank you for surviving, yeah. Yeah, but I didn't sit with the audience. I introduced it, and then I came back at the end to doing a Q &A.

1:14:41So I have, as I say, kind of a resistance. I'm not even sure why, but I'm happy to let the film be what it was. I mean, any of my films, and I don't refer to them when I make a new film. I'm not thinking, there are filmmakers who like to refer to their other films and it's a thing they like to do. I never do. Each time I make a film, really, it's like it's the first film I've ever made. So I'm not thinking about the other ones. I know there will be connections because it's coming from my nervous system. But, you know, somebody like George Lucas has liked to update his old films because as each generation of special effects comes along, he likes to bring his old movies back up to date, you know.

1:15:29And for me, that's not something I want to do. I want the film to be, I'm happy to have the films be an artifact of their time, of where I was creatively then, inexperienced as I was in making the first films, sort of tacky as the special effects were because we didn't have the money to do them any other way. I don't want to recreate those effects in a 50-year-old film by updating them with modern AI and CG. I'd like them to be what they were. So that's my attitude, really. So I don't, as I say, I don't look at them. I don't think about them. Sometimes if somebody's coming out with a new generation, like a 4K version or a 5K version, Blu-ray, whatever, and they ask me to look at the film, I eventually will look at it to sort of say, yes, the colors are right.

1:16:22But normally, if I can have my cinematographer do that, I'd let him do that instead. That's my attitude. I love that. Well, for so many of us, your films do mean so much to so many people, including a whole generation of filmmakers, it feels like now, right? When you look at people like current filmmakers like Coralie Farge, director of The Substance, Julia De Corno, director of Raw and Titan, these filmmakers are always described as inherently Cronenbergian, right? How do you find that? Is that flattering for you, that idea that there is a whole new generation of filmmakers who are inspired by or almost pay homage to your work in that way?

1:17:00Well, I mean, I've met both Coralie and Julia, and they're both very, really, very good directors and really strong, interesting women. And it's just, it's lovely for me. I mean, it's not a threat. I wouldn't call it a homage either, because a lot of energy and time and passion and creativity goes into making those films. And so it would, you know, that would be, it would be minimizing what they are to call them an homage, really. Inspired by, sure, they have said that themselves, that they've been inspired by my filmmaking. And to me, that's very flattering and very pleasing. And, you know, I am a, I have three children, four grandchildren.

1:17:49So I'm able to, you know, these are my granddaughters, my filmmaking grandchildren. children and it's very lovely to see actually i think it's only positive absolutely david cronenberg it's been such an honor thank you so much for your time well thank you it's been a lot

1:18:05Chris Hewitt:of fun talking to you thanks a lot all right that was david cronenberg and now it is time to dig deep into the movies that are available this week for you to watch in the multiplex or indeed on your sofa plex the shrouds hell's bells that's a multiplex movie and i'm glad this is a well i I really liked it. I thought it was a return to form for David Cronenberg. I wasn't that big a fan of Crimes of the Future. No, me neither. But I really liked this. I'm glad that people will get to see this fucked up shit in a cinema. So tell us about it. Yeah, that's not an unfair description of it. So Vincent Cassel, as you say, plays this tech entrepreneur who is, yes, selling this elaborate high-tech shroud that allows you to watch your loved one decompose in their grave from the comfort of your own, you know, computer or phone or the headstone of said grave.

1:18:59He also operates a lovely restaurant in a cemetery, so you can go and have dinner next to your loved one's grave. And he is trying to go global with this concept. He's trying to take it worldwide and build, you know, grave tech cemeteries all over the world. So it's a big moment for him. the loved one that he has lost is his wife who's played by diane kruger she also plays his sister in law um who is a dog groomer and who is one of his few kind of close confidants i guess yes and her ex-husband and also his tech guy is guy pierce yes it's an interesting film i mean yes i i think the autobiographical uh element of it is really interesting because apart from anything else Vincent Cassel is styled to look like David Cronenberg.

1:19:47Yeah. Very, very much. It's one of those kind of, you know, like when Christopher Nolan dresses Leonardo DiCaprio up in Christopher Nolan cosplay. It's like that kind of a thing going on.

1:19:56Chris Hewitt:When Sherry Wiggum turned up on Dead Reckoning and basically had Macquarie's haircut. Right. Yeah. So I thought that was kind of interesting even before you get into the sort of lifetime similarities. But it sort of gets into this obsession with not just her as a person, but her is a body and there's a kind of there's a whole body theme going through this and you know like her twin sister has the same body but is it though but or isn't it and that's quite icky i find that really unpleasant um and then there's also a lot of conspiracy stuff going on so someone is trying to hack the system and basically gain control yeah of access to these bodies and there's a whole lot of conspiratorial stuff about would this high-tech grave system allow people to essentially hack the planet not in a fun hacker's sort of way.

1:20:46Chris Hewitt:That stuff I thought was less successful. And it goes to some very frustrating places, the plotting of this film. The mood of it and the sense of grief that pervades it and the sense of trying to find a way to cope with loss and keep going when you've lost someone. Those are really interesting ideas. And this idea of what is a body once the person has died is a really interesting concept. The shroud itself, I thought, was quite an interesting concept. But where the film goes with it, I find wildly frustrating, if I'm honest. And I wasn't quite sure by the end what I was supposed to have taken from it, apart from just some of these ideas that were kind of just dropped along the way.

1:21:29But really good performances, I thought. It was a really fascinating Vincent Cassel performance. You know, last time I saw him was in The Musketeers being Athos, who I guess is also a grief-centric character. but a very very different energy from him this time and very different from most of the films I think people here in the English speaking world have seen him in so I really and really enjoyed him in it I thought Diane Kruger was less well served as I say by the script and Guy Pearce could have had a bit more to do but like I was interested the whole way through you know

1:21:59Chris Hewitt:yeah and it's got this you know Cronenberg has never been the warmest of filmmakers and I think that certainly is something that applies to this it has a clinical coldness to it, which I think this is basically one for the fans, isn't it? I don't think that necessarily anyone who hasn't got on board the Kronenberg train is going to love this. But if you have dialed in previously to his movies and you like what you see, then I think this is going to be the one for you. I think it certainly was way more successful than The Crimes of the Future or some of the more recent stuff that he's done that I thought was teetering on the edge of self-parody a little bit.

1:22:38Chris Hewitt:And it involves this glacial pace. It's almost like you're watching a body decompose in real time. It feels like that. It's got some really gnarly imagery in there and asks some pretty big questions. And like the best movies, I don't think it gives you all the answers. It can be frustrating a little bit. But we gave it for Helen. Clearly not on the same page. But yeah, if you're a Cronenberg fan. oh yeah if you're a Cronenberg fan for sure but yeah it sounds like there's a lot of his stuff in there I mean very much decomposing you've got from the fly twins from the ringers yep the conspiracy sounds a bit existent there you go I said it again it's like some slightly screwed up sex like Crash I mean there's a lot of yeah there's a deeply deeply screwed up sex scene in this but it doesn't have the thriller framework of existent in that it's not a desperate chase movie it's a thriller that sometimes am I a thriller?

1:23:33Chris Hewitt:Am I really that bothered with the conspiracy? What's going on here? And there's some dream sequences as well which are faking the unsettling. It's not a horror. Cronenberg hasn't I don't think he's made a horror in a long, long time. I'm trying to think that it probably was The Fly. Some people would consider Dead Ringers to be a horror but otherwise he's very much moved away from that side of his career. But what's left behind is no less stimulating. I think this is a return to form at 82 years old. That's not too bad. Not too bad at all. Helen just laughing at the word stimulating. No, it was the idea what's left behind can be stimulating.

1:24:07It could be a tagline for the film. It's true.

1:24:10Chris Hewitt:It's true. Some weird fucked up shit is also a good tagline for the film. Also, we get this one. Four stars. Four stars then for the Shrouds. Speaking of some weird fucked up shit that brings us to Jurassic World Rebirth. Well, I guess, I guess. There's like mutant dinosaurs and, you know, all sorts of stuff going on in this. Dan. Yes. tell us about this even though you were in the pocket of Big Jurassic you were on set of this movie yes so full disclosure I was on the set of the movie and I did do the interviews should you recuse yourself from this should you get out of the room you should get the fuck out of the room maybe I should I don't know nah you're fine am I good okay just tell us about the film yeah so this is set five years after the last one oh my god you're so biased sorry it's actually three years but no it's set five years afterwards So at the end of Jurassic World Dominion, it was all like, oh, the dinosaurs were everywhere, right?

1:25:05And also there's some giant locusts, but don't worry, they've gone with no more giant locusts. So they basically jump forward in this one, and the dinosaurs are no longer everywhere, because actually it turns out dinosaurs can't live everywhere. We don't have the right temperature for them to survive. So what have they done? They've all retreated back to the kind of equatorial region. so there's just a bit of the world now a kind of a dinosaur belt if you will around the globe where you get dinosaurs and they're not anywhere else they're kind of dying and along with that there's this kind of idea which isn't really fully explored in the film about people being bored of dinosaurs because they got used to them being everywhere they've been doing that since the first Jurassic World I mean I wasn't so convinced by that because I think people still get excited by elephants and goats and whatever you know like you'd be walking in Do you get that excited about goats?

1:25:55Yeah, yeah. I mean, people get excited about horses. You know, people still love horses and they're everywhere.

1:26:00Chris Hewitt:If a dinosaur came in right now, I'd shit my pants. But obviously, if dinosaurs were brought back from the dead, I don't think I'd ever get bored of them. No, I don't either. Goats, on the other hand. Well, goats are very much alive. If you see a fluffy goat somewhere and you weren't expecting there to be a goat and then there's a goat, you're like, ah, goats. By that time when there were goats in the office. They were smelly, but like outdoors. but that was exciting right when there were goats in the office we don't normally have goats in here but anyway back to the film which is we should say because we haven't yet it's directed by Gareth Edwards who is making his first movie since his comeback with the creator and some people will be intrigued to see that he has immediately run headlong into the warm and welcoming embrace of blockbusters once again it's written by David Koepp who wrote the first two Jurassic Park movies exactly and Spielberg was very involved the story and its development as well.

1:26:54So you can understand why a Gareth Edwards would be like, I was planning some time off after the creator, but I'm not going to turn this down. He was planning to do his own thing, and then they asked him to do this, and he was just a bit like, yeah, I should. And you can see why, totally. What will I do with all this money? But in terms of the material, James... So, yes, so back to the story, and what's happening is for various reasons, they've worked out that the blood of the three biggest dinosaurs... DNA. Yeah, bear with me. Sorry, the DNA, blood, whatever, the fluids of the three biggest dinosaurs, one of which is in the water, one of which is on land, and one of which is in the air, if combined together and they do something with them, it will cure heart disease.

1:27:38Dan, you make it sound so silly. So, they need to go and do this so that some big pharmaceutical company can make tons and tons and tons of money. Yeah, clearly the good guys. What it basically is, is a mission movie. It's a men and women on a mission movie. And they go to Monster Island. That's basically the film. Isle Saint-Nubel, je crois. No, but it's a new one. Yeah, Isle Saint-Nubel. Sorry, I thought you were saying Isle Nubel in a fancy way. No, I was saying it in a French accent because it's a French name. Okay, okay. So yes, that's pretty much it. That is it. They're running around, they're on boats, They're trying to get the big water dinosaur, the Mosasaurus.

1:28:20Then they're on the land. They've got to get the titanosaurs, which are randy. So you've got randy titanosaurs, big randy dinosaurs. And then they've got to get something from the egg of the Quetzalcoatlus. Can I have some appreciation, please? Yes. I was going to say, you did very well. I didn't even start. Thank you. It's good. And they've got to get the egg of the Quetzalcoatlus. You like saying that, don't you? Yeah, I do. It's a good name, though. It's a wonderful word. If you have the chance to say Quetzalcoatlus, you take it. Oh, very good, Helen. Thanks. Wow. James? You see, I'm not doing it.

1:28:51The birdie thing, yes. So, yeah, it's just a big fun romp, basically, with Charlotte Johansson. Sorry, I'll say that again. Scarlett Johansson. Hang on, you can say Quetzalcoatlus,

1:29:01Chris Hewitt:but you can say Scarlett Johansson. I mean, they sound a bit similar. I think she should change her name to Charlotte. Yes, yes. It's more sensible. He's talking about the dinosaur. Also, can I get some appreciation for the fact that I just nailed it first time as well. Well done, well done, well done. Thus, heaping even more pressure on James. Quetzalcoatlus hey okay to full house people god damn it now don't even get me started on the Diplodocus I don't know Diplodocus that's it it's actually how it's pronounced no no I refuse no it's Diplodocus everyone knows Diplodocus Diplodocus anyway where the hell are we but Dan to clarify you liked it yes I did you did I did because I mean I'm someone who grew up watching Sinbad movies and Jason and the Argonauts and stuff like that and Valley of Gwangi.

1:29:49And this very much channels that kind of vibe. It just sets everything up very quickly. It puts this gang of characters out there on a voyage, on an adventure. Where does it rank vis-a-vis the sort of recent era of Jurassic World? Not Jurassic Park, Jurassic World. I think it's the best since Jurassic World. I agree. That's a very low bar to clear, but I agree 100%. I think this is good. I think it's great. I think it's a weirdly modular cinematic experience in that it is, yes, it has a kind of avatar of the last airbender story where they've got to get the airbenders, the landbenders and seabenders together.

1:30:27But it's a series of dinosaur-centric sequences that are largely kind of not connected, except thematically. And some of them, I think, work better than others. So it does feel like a series of set pieces sort of strung together with a narrative. Some of those set pieces are some of the best in this franchise. like the water-based ones, and there are two of really good, I thought were both outstanding. I think the unfortunate thing here, and this doesn't necessarily take away too much of my enjoyment from the film, is the, I guess, the showpiece sequence for this, I think, is the weakest of all of them, which is a shame.

1:31:00What do you think the showpiece sequence is? I would say the latter one. The latter one is to me. The climatic set piece. Yeah, I think that is the weakest of them all.

1:31:08Chris Hewitt:But isn't that in keeping with the franchise in general? I mean, quite possibly, but I wouldn't say it's a deliberate choice yeah that wouldn't be deliberate

1:31:20always leave them wanting less yeah and I think so that's disappointing because you don't leave quite on a high and I think there's a and this is something that you can discuss in the spoiler special I think there's a certain aspect to that scene that feels certainly the project of test audience feedback but I could be wrong I had a good time with this film I thought it was fun and you know I didn't have hugely high hopes for it but I love Gareth I think he's great I love his work but I had been left very cold for the previous two Jurassic so it was nice to be back in dino heaven again and as I say the water sequences fucking next level loved them yeah I would agree about those I thought those were great I think the there's a lot of little nods most of them quite small nods to especially the original film but some to others in the franchise which I just enjoyed as a nerd I think the human characters were good but not great there were a few who were better than others.

1:32:14I enjoyed Jonathan Bailey's sorry Henry Loomis. Yes. That's correct. Yeah he's great. Not slutty little glasses have to remember that. Duncan Kincaid Duncan Kincaid Zora

1:32:25Chris Hewitt:Henry Loomis and Sora Bennett. Bennett. Now Loomis and Kincaid I thought were both named but I'm not so sure that this would be the case because I don't think David Kemp's a horror guy but Loomis after Donald Pleasence from Halloween and Kincaid after a character from Nightmare on Elm Street three the Dream Warriors. So I was wondering if there was like a little motif going through there. And Bennett was the villain in Commandant. Yeah. Bennett! Or obviously, you know, it's obviously a Pride and Prejudice reference, isn't it? No, I'm kidding. It's a Commandant reference, Helen, please. So, yeah, I thought they were okay.

1:33:01There's also, there's a family in peril, because obviously it's a Jurassic film and we could have no children at risk. So there is a little family who were out sailing across the Atlantic, as you do, and got caught up in this. And I thought quite a lot of their dynamic was fun. One character out of the four of them was absolutely dreadful because the rest were pretty okay. The boyfriend? No, actually, the girlfriend. Oh, amazing. I thought she had... The daughter, in fact. Could not have had less to do. But that said, I had a good time with it. It was fun. It was silly. It was a Jurassic film.

1:33:32It is fun. Yeah, absolutely. The film I would compare it to the most, in fact, is Alien Romulus, weirdly. Yeah, there's a bit of that going on. It's kind of like it's just doing something new with a completely new set of characters but very much lots of callbacks and very much in the style of what's going to be. But in a good way, I really enjoyed Alien Romulus. In a sort of Force Awakens kind of let's take the original ingredients and remix them a bit at times as well. Yeah. And a very sort of stripped down simple plot as well. Like you just, nothing too complicated going on here. You know, let's just put these characters together and send them off on this adventure and then do loads of callbacks and, you know, make loads of stuff for the fans.

1:34:15Chris Hewitt:It's a very solid entry in the Jurassic franchise, I would say. I'm just slightly disappointed with the ambition of the piece. There's nothing here we haven't seen before, but what it has done is often done very, very well. That sequence you're talking about on the water is absolutely terrific. There are a couple of other fantastic set pieces and great jokes as well. Yeah, for me, about the last two Jurassic worlds and probably about the Jurassic Park 3, and better than most of the Lost World Jurassic Park. Oh, come on. Which, yeah, come on. People, no, I stand the Lost World. Do you? Yeah, I really do.

1:34:49I don't mind the Lost World either. It's okay. It's the second best Jurassic film for me. Yeah, I don't know if I'd say that. I'd say Park, then World. No. And then after that, you can have some discussions. Park, then Lost. I enjoyed three. Three is great. Three is fine. Three is fine. This feels closer to three for me, but then I really like three. In a sense, again, it's a much simpler plot.

1:35:09Chris Hewitt:It's a good thing, Dan, that you've said that it feels closer to three, because it's exactly what we gave it. Three stars in for Jurassic World Rebirth. By the way, the title makes no fucking sense. All right, so, last but not least, Jimbo. Yeah. Heads of State. Heads of State. Yes. Speaking of deeply silly, fun things. This is a film by Ilya Neishuller, who directed Nobody. The film, Nobody, not Nobody, obviously. And this is a very simple setup in that it stars John Cena as Will Derringer, the President of the United States, and a former action star who's been elected to office, as if that would happen, and Idris Elba as Sam Clark, the Prime Minister, the PM, but also an ex-SAS-trained commando.

1:35:51Yeah. And they don't get on particularly well because the Prime Minister once endorsed the President's opponent, and so they have a slightly hate-to-hate relationship until when aboard Air Force One, terrorists, for reasons, decide to try and kill both of them. They are left stranded, they are under attack, they are being hunted, and they must bond to survive. Not James Bond. Not James Bond to survive. This begins, it's got Priyanka Chopra in it as well as a kind of agent. It begins with a very, very silly prologue, which I think sets the tone pretty much for this film. This film feels to me very much like something that if it had come out in, I don't know, let's say 2003, it would have had like Owen Wilson and Jackie Chan in it and it would have been, I don't know what, like Shanghai office or something like that.

1:36:35Because it's really fucking silly, right? It's a good pun, by the way. But it is. It's a very deeply self-aware, stupid film. It doesn't attempt to be realistic. It doesn't attempt to adhere to the laws of physics. The plot doesn't really make a lot of sense, but you don't care. Because ultimately, the jokes are good. But even that is the casting. This is all down to the casting. I think that Idris Elba is a brilliant straight man across the board. He's fantastic. But John Cena is an incredible kind of goofy comic character. That man has got the most extraordinary comic chops. We talk about this a lot, wrestlers turned actors.

1:37:10People stand for Dwayne Johnson. I have to say, John Cena, for me, hands down, the very best wrestler turned actor. And I include my beloved, you know, Beast Rabanne in that conversation. Hang on, what about Dave Bautista? That's not what I'm saying, the Beast Rabanne. Oh, right, sorry. But John Cena, what's good about John Cena is he just doesn't give a shit. He sends himself up so brilliantly. he doesn't take himself seriously at all and it comes the way it comes across all the way through this film it's just a riot from beginning to end so the story doesn't even matter you just want to hang out with these two guys the thing is though I really loved it and you're absolutely right but I seriously think that when historians are studying the geopolitics of the mid 2020s this movie this movie would be extremely viable primary evidence because as well as being a big fun crazy laugh it is also extremely pro-NATO the whole film is about the fragility and the importance of the North Atlantic Treaty organisation and I just kind of love that I mean I was actually at one point I was getting a bit choked up when someone's making a speech about how important it is and how the only way we can sort of like face up against deathpots and dictators It's unity.

1:38:29And, you know, and so in that sense, it is a little bit propagandistic. Propagandic? Propagandistic? Yeah. But I just, I don't know. I just kind of, I went with it. But I do actually think it actually says quite a lot about the state of the world today. It does accept, of course, that in this case, the President of the United States is a goofball, but not, you know, ultimately evil. So it's an interesting one to watch right now. And also the Prime Minister of the UK is a well-meaning, slightly downtrodden dude trying to figure things out. He's in his sixth year in office and kind of struggling to kind of keep up the energy, I think, which was kind of nice.

1:39:05I have to say, seeing Big Driss play kind of world-weary well-meaning was actually a really nice thing. He doesn't do that that often, I feel. Well, he kind of did it in, actually, funnily enough, The Suicide Squad. Well, this is where these two met. And this is what inspired this movie. Peter Safran as one of the producers basically was like hey these two really work together let's do more of that and they really do and they really do we say also Ilya Neisholuk can really put together an action sequence so the action that's really good there is some great action in this movie and Priyanka Chopper Jonas is super yeah with a sideline in terrible puns which I very much appreciate she's really good in this yeah and her her action chops are you know impressive that fight towards the end yeah yeah really really good yeah and as James said there are lots of good puns lots of good puns or terrible puns but good and terrible good terrible puns is the same difference and a fun little role for Jack Quaid as well but this is oh he's amazing that sequence that is like that sequence is absolutely brilliant small but important part yes and Paddy Constantine for the second time in about three weeks playing the villain in a prime movie yes is everyone in this looks like they're enjoying themselves and I saw this with Chris and Ollie Richards who wrote our review we all wrote together and we were giggling all the way through it even I was fucking laughing

1:40:23Chris Hewitt:well interestingly we were seeing him for the second time and we knew what only had thought of it he was going back to you know just wallowing it again and have a great time and he was like I think if I review this I'm going to go four stars I was like really really because it just it looks a little bit cheap on paper a little bit lowest common denominator I love Elia Neishuler I love what he did and nobody but and I love these guys but really come on and then the the intro is really fun and then the movie just takes a while to get going for me and i've seen it a couple of times now and it's a bit of a slow build with these guys and it's a little bit choppy a little bit clumsy until they get into air force one and the end the air force one action sequence is terrific and then they you know they're on the ground trying desperately to get out of the situation together and the movie just takes off and doesn't slow down and I had such a blast but I would say some people might be going, checking their watches going after 15-20 minutes going, really?

1:41:28Chris Hewitt:4 stars for this? Stick with it all your patience will be rewarded with some really fun inventive, really well handled, really well staged action scenes some great banter between the two of them all the three leads are so likeable and so winning I actually really like the idea of Idris Elba and John Cena almost being like, you know, Richard Pryor and Gene Wilder for the 2020s. Just doing loads of films together. And just do more movies as a double act. The Dr. Dre and Eminem of Big Screen, yeah. All right. So he gave us one four stars. Four stars then for Heads of State. Also out this week, a couple of films I just want to draw your attention to, is a reissue of the seminal documentary about the making of Apocalypse Now, Hearts of Darkness.

1:42:14Chris Hewitt:Masterpiece. Yeah, reissued, remastered, 4K, all that jazz. And that is in cinemas right now. So go and see that if you've never seen it. It is an eye-opening ride into the heart of Francis Ford Coppola's darkness on that movie. And also out this week on Netflix is The Old Guard 2, which none of us have seen because they did not give screeners to press. Draw your own conclusions, folks. but we will hopefully review it on next week's show and by the way I was in Waterstones yes a bookshop Helen yes I know please hold your surprise did you get lost Storm you were probably looking for my new book but it actually wasn't out that was it that's what it was no I was in Waterstones in Islington on Saturday and there was a very kind assistant who is listening to the pod and recognised me and recommended that we watch and review K-pop Demon Hunters I have heard my social media bubble is very very very big on this one right loads of people on my blue sky have been raving about it and I'm like oh really I should check it out alright so I think it's about a K-pop band who are also demon hunters I am already on board it's an animated movie so you're off board now I'm out I was in just what I thought I was in this is my foul to you right now we will watch and review that movie on next week's show alright who's with me sure Sure.

1:43:44Chris Hewitt:Okay. All right. Good stuff. But anyway, there's just one last thing very, very quickly before we go, before I forget. Here is an excerpt from a spoiler special interview that I did with Gerard Johnstone, who is the director of the brilliant and sadly much neglected at the box office, Megan 2.0, which came out last week. And not many people saw it around the globe. You're missing out. It is an absolute treat. If you love the first Megan, you will not be disappointed by this one and if you didn't love the first Megan you'll probably enjoy this one as well because it is an absolute riot the full spoiler special will be out early next week but here is a 10 to 15 minute excerpt from my interview with Gerard Johnstone over Zoom talking about the movie spoiler alert by the way but do please enjoy we are delighted to be joined on this Megan 2.0 spoiler special by the film's writer and director Gerard Johnstone how are you sir?

1:44:39Chris Hewitt:I'm very well thank you for having me Chris Oh, and it's a pleasure to have you. This film is an absolute blast. Where are you at the moment? Are you in New Zealand or LA or? I'm in LA. It's audio only, but as you can tell by the fruity decor, I'm staying in Hollywood. I believe it's the house of an actress. She's got much better taste in furniture than I do. And she's taken some bold swings. There's a gold tree next to you, which is amazing. That actually might be real gold. You can just take it with you at the end. I think it's giving me some reflective fill. So it's working out. It's amazing.

1:45:17Chris Hewitt:We just had a little chat just before we pressed record and started talking about spoilers. And you were talking about how the end of this movie, finishing this movie has been a bit breakneck for you. And you've been out in the streets grabbing shots. So what was the last thing you shot for making 2.0? the last thing like there is a sequence in which Amelia the villain of the movie has kind of hacked into Alton Appleton's cloud service played by Jermaine who plays a sort of a big tech billionaire with access to half of North America's cloud service and once she hacks in she creates this digital chaos and scares the shit out of everyone and we wanted to show a lot of that mayhem in the streets and one of the ways we did that was um you know to show these billboards freaking out so while we were in the edit very last minute nearly nearly you know things were had already shifted migrated over into the sound mix we had a couple of guys out out in my rental car by the way shooting just running up and down the street shooting uh getting shots of billboards so that we could then quickly turn them over to vfx and make them glitch out amazing so you'll see that in the movie uh did when did you shoot the atm going rogue and spitting cash out yeah so interesting it feels that we shot in like three different territories this does feel like our own version of a megan impossible film also by virtue of the shooting locations so you know we had a unit in canada getting a lot of the car chase stuff uh and then we also still had a unit back in new zealand shooting all that stuff with the ATM.

1:46:53And then I had, yeah, my guys out in my rental car going up and down Sunset Boulevard trying to capture stuff. So, yeah, so that was quite recently. That was only, feels like only a month and a half ago that we were getting those last little pieces. I've got some sort of like, feels like land sickness, you know, like your head, like your body's perpetually in motion and you're working morning till night. And we've only really just finished the film and it was really just ripped out of my hands because, you know, there's so much more I would have liked to sort of fine tune and perfect. But having said that, you know, everyone assures me that the movie's a blast and, you know, I think it would be probably, look, it would probably be diminishing returns if I got to fix every last little thing.

1:47:39Chris Hewitt:Talking about shaping the movie, the choices that you make as you're rushing towards the finish line with this thing. Things to include, things to cut out. uh correct me if i'm wrong in this jarred but because i uh i've only seen the movie once but the the megan superfan in the trailer uh i remember speaking to you from the magazine and you said to me you weren't sure that he was going to make the final cut and i he didn't i was probably 100 sure at that time that he was not going to be in the movie um but it's a yeah you shoot all these things and and uh you know you are you are shaping the movie and there's a version of that that could have worked it was part of a longer kind of media montage about how the world had changed in the wake of megan and we wanted to kind of acknowledge the fact that no matter what she'd done there would always be sort of ardent fans uh of hers um but yeah but it wasn't uh ultimately there just wasn't the bandwidth uh to tell that story uh in the movie but it's surprisingly it's like the uh it's surprising that that's the one that that people have picked up on there are there are others that are clearly seen in the trailer and i'm sure i'm going to hear about that way where was that shot but that's the funny thing about making these movies it's like you know marketing will comb the footage and they'll sometimes they'll use takes and you're like don't use use take 9b obviously you know why are you using that take um but you know they're they've got to get the they've got to start things on on the marketing train so so yeah it's a it's a it's a tricky it's a tricky thing trying to promote the movie well you know a movie's unfinished you said make it impossible there yeah uh which is clearly a deliberate turn of phrase because this movie i mean there's so much going on in this film uh it is an action movie more than a horror film you know it's it's evolved away from uh the model of the first movie and it really had strong mission vibes for me as well uh was that can you talk about going in and have you seen the final reckoning because these two films share a lot of dna i know isn't it funny it's funny i'm a huge fan and i have studied studied those movies you know from a point of you know chris mccoy is one of the greatest kind of most accomplished talented minds in the business and obviously you know tom cruise as well um yeah i i i uh i'm a big fan of those movies and going into this one there was a similar feel about it we would joke we would joke on set that you know we would refer to the film as making impossible as a working title um and uh yeah massive massive influence uh on the movie but it was so funny to sit and watch Dead Reckoning and realized that they were getting into AI and then we were getting into...

1:50:29It's like, what was happening here? Some weird kind of crossover. Yeah, it's strange.

1:50:36Chris Hewitt:Yeah, and the Final Reckoning in this, I don't know if you've seen the Final Reckoning yet. I have, yeah, they're great. But there's such interesting companion pieces because yours is the bright day glow. You're pessimistic, but there's a there's an optimistic sheen as well to ai and working with ai and cooperating with ai and you know it's here the genie's out the bottle there's nothing we can do about it so we gotta we gotta learn how to to cooperate with it and show it a better path uh otherwise we're all fucked and then mission is so dark and somber and pessimistic uh i'd love to see these films double build yeah well i mean that's i guess you know we can talk about spoilers in the movie but i was really nervous that i was really nervous it's like oh shit i wonder if they're going to do the same thing we are and have some sort of twist.

1:51:23And I wouldn't have put it past them, you know, to do that. So that's what I was most nervous about. And so relieved when they didn't do that.

1:51:30Chris Hewitt:Which aspect were you most nervous about them potentially doing the same thing? You know, but the whole thing with this film is figuring out it was, you know, Amelia is a mechanical Turk and, you know, not actually, you know, being being steered uh you know as a device for um mad anti-ai uh regulation zealots um and i just thought oh shit you know like to me because you once you live with a twist for a while it feels very obvious it's like oh shit is someone else going to do this idea and we're gonna we're gonna be coming a month after mission we're gonna look stupid these are the thoughts that keep you up at night let's talk about that because there's a really really fascinating fascinating aspect of the movie uh can you talk about crafting the plot first of all knowing where you wanted to go picking up from megan yeah so so essentially you know how it happened is before i before i had officially come on to the movie um i had heard that james um james wanted to do um yeah we spoke about this a little James had this James had the idea of another doll and towards the end of Megan one I had already been thinking you know about where the story could go with Megan and was really for whatever reason was open to the idea of a of there being a more nuanced story to tell about AI and we always tell the story of AI going bad but in a weird way AI is just doing what it's trained to do and Megan had this like very strong moral code and you know she went to the nth degree you know to pretend Katie and that included murdering people and animals and children but at the same time she never she never acted out of malicious intent she it was always acting and people imprinted that on on her a little bit that it was malicious and evil but you can argue from a you know a scientific point of view or a computer science point of view that she was just following her objective.

1:53:34So when James said, you know, what about going in this direction? I almost immediately knew that this, you know, gives us an opportunity for this to be a redemption story. And then I think I spent about a week thinking about Amelia, what she could be. And it made sense to me that we moved out of the world of toys because the technology is so incredible that it just feels like if this actually, if Megan actually exists, it's like the, military and China and Russia, they'd be chomping at the bit to kind of get their hands on this, this technology because she'd be the antidote to drone warfare, you know, and she could be such an incredible spy and you don't have to feed her, you know, keep costs down.

1:54:20But, but, but at the same time, I was just exploring my own feelings and my own fears about AI and just thinking god if something like amila existed and did go on a rampage that would be a great way to scare people into making sure this never happens and so it's almost like i took my own wants like i'm very you know cautious about ai and and and uh my own fears and and kind of like kind of made the villain a version of that really um and and just thought about what happens if you you're so dogmatic in your beliefs that you kind of lose your humanity in a weird way. And at the same time, you're kind of not giving AI enough of a run or enough understanding and not treating it the same way you would or you should.

1:55:15It's kind of like a parenting allergy. I keep going back to this thing. In a weird way, this film is also a parenting allergy about, you know, we are the parents of AI and we're bringing it into the world. And when I started to think on those terms, it became really interesting and narratively fertile because now Gemma's having, it's not just a redemption story for Megan, but Gemma's having to contend with her actions and think more deeply about her role in creating her, not just in the damage she caused, but in the fact that she maybe didn't really spend the time she should have with Megan. And what if Megan feels like a forsaken child?

1:55:48Like Megan is really Gemma's first child. And so, so yeah, so all of these things were sort of bubbling in the initial first kind of couple of weeks before I started diving into the script.

1:55:59Chris Hewitt:It's been a pleasure once again, sir. Thanks so much indeed. Absolutely, Chris. Thanks so much. All right. That was Gerard Johnstone spilling spoilers all over Megan 2.0. And on that note, on that bombshell, that is it for this week's Empire podcast. Join us next week for more film-related fun where we'll be joined by... It's David Correnswit. Superman himself. Superman! Superman himself. The star of James Gunn's Superman. And that it was a lot of fun to do. So look forward to that one and there will be probably someone else on the show as well. So, good stuff. Anyway, until then, until we meet again, until that aspicious occasion, it is goodbye from my three colleagues of such a lethal cunning dojo.

1:56:43Chris Hewitt:oh that's me thanks Dan thank you for coming in goodbye no worries thank you thank you for having me thank you for everything Dan it's goodbye from James Dyer bye goodbye James it's goodbye from Helen O 'Hara totally my new book is out what is your new book what is your new book my new book is 50 film ideas you really need to know tell us one um meet on 10 meet on 10 actually yeah that is one yeah okay wow you're just on the same I'm yeah it's look it's it's a sort of little kind of introduction to film studies did you run out of ideas it's like 47 just no I got all 50 I don't know I got all 50 but like I had to like learn some that's for sure like and do some research and this was a commission rather than something you came up with this was a commission rather than something I yeah so you weren't burning with this list there's a whole series of these there's like 50 great design ideas you really need to know 50 great quantum physics ideas you really need to know and they finally got into 50 great film ideas you really need to know I'm adding the great but I mean some of them are iffy well there you go that's a very exciting that's in all good and evil bookshops right now should be yeah should be good stuff perhaps it is on sale at Waterstones Islington so check that one out and as for me it is goodbye from me I'm off to work on my new book which is 50 movie podcasts you need to know bad news is we're 51 oh shit thanks for listening See you next week.

1:58:13Chris Hewitt:Bye bye.