Diane, Drew And The Greatest Poster Ever (ft. guests Rebecca Miller, Channing Tatum & Kirsten Dunst, Mason Thames & Madeleine McGraw)

31:19I really wanted Jodie Foster because I just knew, knowing her a little bit, that she would be very articulate. Not only about Taxi Driver and Alice, but also about the period of time. I'm fascinated. I was in an interview with myself. I've done a couple of long interviews in the past Four hours is pushing it I have to say I'm fascinated by How you approached That first interview with Marty So did you I call him Marty, I met him once He belongs to all of us I think I can get away with it How did you approach that very first interview with him? I mean, how structured did you want it to be? Yeah, I would say that the first interview was kind of the most terrifying one because we had a basket of his early childhood pictures that I wanted him, like, and of his drawings as a child.

32:15And I wanted him to hold them up and to talk about them and stuff. And that was just a little bit, like, I didn't know how to, it was like, hold it up, but then I wanted him to talk. It was a little bit of a, it was a bit of a learning curve in the beginning of that interview. But my very, very first question to Marty, was, what's your first memory? Because I thought, and it turned out to be like when he was like, you know, eight months old or something. So it just like says something about him. But I really wanted to go deep. I wanted to go deep with his family. I was really interested in the geometry of the family, like him to his mother, his mother to his father, his brother to him, his brother to his father, all those things.

32:56Because I felt like, you know, starting with them, then the geometry of the neighborhood and like all of that and all the dissonances and the things that don't go together, the things that do go together. So there's the church. And then across the street from that, there's the Ravenite Social Club full of mob members. And how does he, as a little kid who's moved from what seems like a bucolic place in Queens to this cauldron of little Italy, how does he negotiate? How does he survive? And I felt my way. I mean, the first one was a big learning curve. I got a lot. We got a lot. The thing about Marty is that like we would sometimes after an hour and a half or two hours say, okay, thank you so much.

33:37I think we're done. And then we would just start to talk casually. Oh, by the way, this. And then all of a sudden we're back in again for another hour. And then we're like, okay, I think we're done. And then we're like, you know, it's funny. And then, you know, so the producers who are out there listening, they're like, you know, the first that they learned that they were like, no, no, no, no, it's not over. They're going to keep going. he has extraordinary energy as well which which was must help after four hours i'd be pushed oh my god once it was five hours and we at a certain point i realized that the best thing was for everyone to leave so we would put the cameras there set up the sound set up the lights and then they left the thing is that in this one case it was in his study which i had been angling to get into for a long time i really wanted to be in his study so we finally got in his study and the light was coming through the window a lot of the light was coming through the window and we were there for so long that I finally couldn't really see him anymore I said money we have to stop I can't see you and that's actually the moment where he where we talk about like right before he meets DiCaprio and I sort of say dead again he's dead again yet and there was a great moment but like his you know we tried to make it better on the because of the in the color grade but you can still see that basically we've lost the light that's amazing and also you said at the beginning that you went into this you had obviously ideas about man and his work and this intersection of of violence and faith and religion and you know growing up in the streets you know caught in that sort of hinted and eye between wanting to be a priest maybe being dragged the Lighthook of a gangster.

35:21Once you got to interview him, know him, go through his archives, talk to everybody that you talked to, my God, were any of your preconceptions about him challenged in any way? I mean, you know, I don't know that I had that many preconceptions because because I really didn't know all that much about his personal life. I feel like I did get, I was very illuminated in terms of his process and how each film really is quite different in how he approaches it. I mean, like he'll go, something like Goodfellas really was mostly written on the page, except for that Pesci, the famous Pesci improvisation, which she, you know, but whereas something like The Departed, they were really making a lot of it up as they went along or Wolf of Wall Street in the tremendous confidence it takes as a director where you're basically at war to be so open to things happening, you know, or ideas.

36:22And that's why, you know, his work with the actors is so particular and so extraordinary is like the amount of faith he puts in them and the amount that he relies on them as his key collaborators. Also, I was just amazed by the fact that, you know, as a young kid, like of like 10 or 11, however old he was, making these drawings, he had a fully formed understanding of the language of cinema, which where he's like describing a shot, which he's still working on. He's still trying to get that shot right. And it's just like so great. You know, that sense of the link between his younger self and his present self is really extraordinary.

37:02When did you first meet him? Do you remember? I think I met him on the set of Gangs of New York. I believe that's when I met him. That's where I remember meeting him and just being struck by how alive he was, how nervous he was about how he was approaching things, how excited he was. I mean, this was a man who was completely awake. You know, sometimes you go on sets and people have made films many times. It's a little sleepy. None of that. It was, you know, a complete live wire. I can imagine what the set of Gangs of New York must have been like as well. It must have been, full of beautiful chaos, I'm guessing.

37:42That's the best way to characterize that as well. And of course, you have amazing, amazing interviewees in this movie. One of the things that tickled me, I may be wrong about this, but I think I'm right, is that Daniel, your husband Daniel, is obviously one of the interviewees. He might be the only person who calls Marty Martin. Oh, yeah. I don't know if that's something Yeah, Marty, yeah Yeah, he doesn't feel like he's, I don't know whether he's maybe Marty, I don't know if I've earned Marty yet, I've only been in a couple of movies Yeah, I don't think it's a formal thing, I think it's just sort of what he got used to calling him, I don't know In terms of lists obviously Daniel was something that you wanted to talk to and you talked about some of the other people that you wanted from the off, there are amazing, amazing guests yes, De Niro, yes, DiCaprio.

38:36But there are childhood friends of Martin's who are extraordinary. The guy who is essentially the model for Johnny Boy. How did you put that list together? How did you approach these people? They're extraordinary fans. Well, I mean, I started to put it together in my mind through some things that he said about Robert Uricola, John Bavona, some of the people in the photographs, you know, were there. So I thought, well, maybe if this person's still alive, I would love to talk to him. If this person's still alive, I'd love to talk to him. So Bavona, Robert Yuricola, I put it together that Salvatore Yuricola, his brother, Sally Gaga, was almost a mythic figure that nobody would fully talk about.

39:22It was as if he, first I thought he was dead. Then it was like, there's no way I'm ever going to talk, you know, talk to this man. And Marty was really, really surprised that I got to talk to him. And the way it happened was such an accident. It was sort of like an amazing accident that I got to speak to him. But it was such a fortuitous accident because once he opens his mouth, he sits down, he opens his mouth and you just feel Marty's movies. Are you done with documentaries or do you think there might be one more? No, I would love to make other documentaries, not necessarily about luminaries, but I'm very interested in people and it's come to me that like really my work in novels feature films and documentaries are really all about character and human beings i mean like yes plot is important but what really interests me is character and so um so i would like to continue to explore it in that medium yeah definitely well i think we show the best rebecca it's been an absolute pleasure to talk with you thank you so much thank you so much okay that was rebecca miller talking about Mr.

40:22Scorsese, which is available on Apple TV as of today, October 17th. All five episodes, I believe, are going up at the same time. But if they're not, then you have a treat to look forward to every week until they have been exhausted. All right, let's talk about movie news now. It's time to dig deep into the world of movie news. I think there is only one place to start, and that is with the very, very sad news that we lost yet another great Diane Keaton at the age of just 79. Yeah, I mean, I just always hoped she'd stick around for much, much longer. She was incredible. I mean, I guess we have to talk about the new Hollywood era, the 70s when she became a huge star and was a huge, huge part of basically the biggest films of that decade and the most lasting and enduring films of that decade.

41:15Oh, we're really beginning to lose people from that era now, and it's a big, mighty blow. Robert Redford a few weeks ago, Gina Hackman a couple months ago, Donald Sutherland, now Diane Keaton. Well, this is getting more depressing by the moment. Yeah, you know, you're completely right. And I think, you know, she, I mean, the others at least were north of 80, and she was 79, which, okay, is not much south of 80, but it still feels too young, and like she was still working up until very recently and still doing quite a lot. She always seemed like someone who was so vibrant and vital and full of energy and life.

41:49And I think she was, I mean, she talked a lot about her childhood fascination with death, which I think powered some of her performances. But like in life, she was this quirky, interesting, interested figure who just always seemed to be slightly out of step with everyone else, but in such a good-hearted and a warm and a cheerful way that nobody could kind of ding her for it. I just find her... She's a fascinating screen present. Someone in one of the obituaries I was reading this week talked about her innate goodness that came across on screen. She didn't really play baddies. And okay, a lot of stars don't.

42:26A couple of weeks ago, we talked about Robert Redford didn't really play bad guys. Except in Marvel movies. Yes, exactly. Very rarely. But Diane Keaton just had a... Even when she was playing a slightly slippery character or somebody who was not... entirely positive like in reds for example incredible performance there there's a there's a sort of a i don't know a morality or something underneath that kind of shines through this this kind of maybe a sense of optimism or maybe a sense of just trying to do her best whatever her best may be even if it doesn't you know accord with the the moral framework of everyone around her she just had a sort of sense of solidity i think and it comes across you know something like I mean even like silly films like Father of the Bride or The Family Stone or First Wives Club you know she may be scatty she may be all over the place she may be comic but she's she's benign in the sense that like she's she's a good person trying her best and possibly at times like you know pinging off in 16 different directions because you know life is complicated but she always just seemed like a good egg and yeah and and you know very much her own person like she She was famous for her very, very singular fashion sense, which was obviously given incredible free reign in Annie Hall and became a huge part of that character.

43:42But she was somebody who didn't necessarily follow the rules, just did her own thing, seemed to be who she wanted to be. But to be having a really good time being that person and leaning into that and not sort of compromising herself to fit someone else's ideal, which is not necessarily how she actually was, by the way. I mean, she did struggle and has talked about struggling with bulimia and struggling with body image and having a lot of hang-ups, especially early in her career where she was kind of, you know, I guess competing for roles with these, you know, gorgeous kind of, I don't know, identikit blondes probably.

44:15I think she was lucky to find artists and roles that allowed her to be herself and to be or to bring something of herself to those roles, to bring something of her own individuality to those roles and give them depth by doing so, you know, by not being just another identicus, beautiful blonde, by being a beautiful kind of slightly mighty-haired person. That's actually how she described herself. It's interesting what you say about her sort of kind of innate morality, because, I mean, she's the moral centre of The Godfather, isn't she, really? Yeah, yeah, very much. And, you know, I think most people, when you say Diane Keaton, maybe think of her as Woody Allen's muse, you know, think of her as Annie Haller in Manhattan.

44:52But for me, like, as Kay Adams in The Godfather, that's always kind of the role that jumps out to me. Well, she's part of one of the greatest final shots of cinema. 100 % yeah the closing of the door yeah she's great in that movie and in fact the other two Godfather films as well she was a tremendous dramatic actress good director as well she was someone who was incredibly refined and had an artistic bent and I read this week she had designed meticulously her own house and she was an artist and a photographer and all these things for me she was a wonderful dramatic actress Red's Godfather, yes, but pretty much a peerless comedic actress.

45:35And it is Annie Hall. I think that most people will remember her for. Hall was her real name in real life. She was born Diane Hall. Hugely inspired that character. Her work with Woody Allen, listen, I know that Woody Allen is a controversial and contentious figure these days. But I think for me, his work with Diane Keaton is his best stuff. If you look back at the run of films that she was in for him, Love and Death, Sleeper, Play It Again, Sam, Annie Hall, Manhattan. Apart from Interiors, which ruins this run, the really, really funny stuff. They sparked something in each other. Oh, by the way, I've just remembered there's a great film she was in.

46:25It's not a comedy. It's called Looking for Mr. Goodbar. Yes. In the late 70s. Quite a shocking movie. If you've never seen that, if I were to recommend one Diane Keaton film, because I think you'll have seen all the touchstones, right? I don't know if everyone's seen Reds. It took me a lot of years to watch Reds. Really? And I think that's one of her best performances as well. How many times was she nominated for an Oscar, Helen? Not enough, I think. Okay, thanks.

46:55Amazing. But she won for Annie Hall. I'm just kind of counting up now. She won for Annie Hall. She was nominated for Red's Marvin's Room and Something's Gotta Give. Didn't get nominated for either of the Godfathers. That's interesting. But yeah, she was absolutely terrific and we are very, very sad indeed to lose her. Anne Keaton, who has passed away at the age of 79. there were a couple of trailers this week that were of interest to me I don't know whether they're of interest to you one was a trailer for Send Help which is a new film from my beloved possessed good boy Sam Raimi very excited and a trailer for the new Marvel TV show Wonder Man did you see either of those?

47:41I did see the Wonder Man one this is a confusing and a wild concept for the show and fair play to them because I had approximately zero? three percent? yeah like somewhere over zero because obviously Marvel I'll give it a go but not very far over zero percent interest in watching this and my interest levels have shot up because I don't understand what's going on and I'm excited to learn so our hero Simon Williams who's the Yaya Abdul-Mateen II character, is an actor and he is up for the role in a reboot of Wonder Man. Wonder Man. Meta. Which in this universe, in the MCU universe, is a classic film, a classic superhero film.

48:29Yes. That is being rebooted. That is being rebooted by its very eccentric original director. Yes, the prime minister or president of Baravia. Yes. and Simon is up for the role but he's up he's got competition and his competition is his own acting teacher yeah this is why I bump up against this a little bit okay it's Trevor Slattery it's Trevor Slattery played by Sir Ben Kingsley yes Sir Trevor Sir Trevor Slattery Trevor he is back back back we love Trevor Slattery from Iron Man 3 of course and Shang-Chi in The Legend of the Ten Rings. This makes him the first character from Shang-Chi to appear in the MCU live action since that movie, which is fucking ridiculous.

49:20What about Wong? I don't count Wong, because Wong was a cameo in that already, whereas Trevor was a full-blown supporting character. That is ridiculous, by the way. Correct. But what's even more ridiculous is that Trevor, I'm sure this is going to be comedically explained in the piece. I'm sure he's actually not going for the role of Simon Williams. But all the young hunks in Hollywood are going for the role of Simon Williams. And then there's this, what, 70-year-old dude from Liverpool who's going for it as well. I don't know what age Trevor is. He talks about seeing Planet of the Apes as a kid.

49:53So I'm guessing he's in his 60s, 70s. Ben Kingsley, sorry, Sir Ben Kingsley, is 82, sorry, Sir 82 years old in real life, I believe. So, yeah, I don't know. I'm getting hung on. But anyway, the trailer doesn't have a single bit of superhero powers, abilities, nothing to tell you that this is a Marvel show apart from the presence of Trevor. Yeah. It's a bold strategy, Cotton. Let's see if it plays off. So reading some of the little bits of information that has been released, it appears that Simon does also have superpowers in addition to being an actor. but I think but like that's not clear from the trailer I don't know if he comes into this with superpowers or if he will develop them at some point if they're going really you know if they're really putting him through the kind of you know they used to talk about you going through the Marvel machine to come out with a six pack to play these roles like maybe maybe it's more of a like it's more of a like a kryptonite situation or a my feeling on this I don't know I don't know for sure but my feeling in this is that the president of Baravia right is going to, because he's such a driven visionary director, that he's going to push his actors to the max, and that might end up imbuing Simon Williams with superpowers.

51:12That was what would make sense to me, yes. Because in the comics, Simon Williams, a.k.a. Wonder Man, is a very, very powerful character, and he is an actor in the comic books as well. So they've taken that side of things and made it meta. I would be quite happy if this was just entourage in the MCU with occasional bits of superheroism. They have the room, they have the latitude with these shows to be a little bit different, to be a little bit weird and not just have to have characters confronting each other super heroically. If this does turn out to be like a deconstruction of kind of the auteur theory and the overly obsequious treatment of kind of superstar directors and the way that they are given maybe too much latitude to abuse their cast and crew, then fucking brilliant.

52:02Bring it on. That would be very, very fun for me. I would enjoy that a lot. Yeah, but if it turns after three episodes into Superpower of Man, punches other Superpower of Man. I mean, sometimes that can be fun. Don't get me wrong. I'm more than happy with that, obviously. but I would like a bit more because we have options for that. Shall I talk Sand Hill? Because I get the sense that neither of you have seen it. Yeah, I did want to see it, but I was distracted by other things. Okay, so this is Sam Raimi's latest movie. So automatically, five stars. Amazing. Absolutely, yeah, of course. Sight unseen, as all his films are.

52:32This is going to be the next best, joint best Sam Raimi movie, along with all of his other films. Right. Including The Gift and For Love of the Game. Shut up. and this one stars Rachel McAdams they reunited after Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness which was also the joint best Sam Raimi film of all time and she stars as Linda Little who is a put upon worker who has a twat of a boss played by Dylan O 'Brien and he's about to give her her marching orders but they have one last thing to go to one last convention or something to go to wouldn't you know it their plane crashes their private executive plane crashes on a deserted desert island he is injured and Linda is not and the tables are turned before you could say castaway meets misery now I understand why that was the comparison being made when this was announced in the trades because it is essentially it looks like it's misery although I'm guessing that there'll be several reversals as well but Linda it would appear is not playing with a full deck in this movie and that could be gold for anyone who's a fan of Rachel McAdams which is just checking everybody so yeah so you think it's going to give her another chance to go oh no he died oh no he died yes oh no he died greatest line reading in cinema history I am there for it to bring it on I am very very excited indeed I'm glad to see he's prolific again after the long gap between Oz the Great and Powerful when he thought, you know what?

54:14I've completed cinema. I do not need to make any more movies. I cannot improve upon this. And Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness. It was what, 13 years? Something like that? Yeah. No. Hang on, I can't count. When did that come out? Oz the Great and Powerful? 2013? So nine years? Nine and a half. It's a long time. It's a long time. this will be just a four year gap by the time this movie comes out so yay prolific sam uh i am absolutely on board am i on board the big casting news of the week not the news that jim caviezel is no longer jesus in mel gibson's two-part epic the resurrection of the christ oh boy part one of which is going to open i believe in 2027 7 40 days I wonder where they got that number from before part two opens.

55:11So he's no longer going to play Jesus in that movie. You could say pop goes kefizel. Oh no. Very much so. That's not the big casting news I'm talking about. I'm not going to be talking about the big casting news. James Norton is going to be playing Brian Epstein, the manager of the Beatles in Sam Mendes' four-part Beatles series of films. Or the fact that Wumi Misaku has joined the cast of The Social Reckoning, which apparently is what Aaron Sorkin's Social Network 2 is called. Don't know who she's playing yet. Twitter. The casting news that I'm talking about is that Jim Carrey is going to star in a live-action movie of The Jetsons, directed by Colin Trevorrow.

55:57Are we on board with this? Doesn't this come down a lot of the time to, what affection do you have for The Jetsons? So I think... I have none. But this is what I was going to say. I feel like it's a very American thing. I think so. The Flintstones crossed the Atlantic, and people in the UK had a big affection for Flintstones, didn't make them go and see the movie, but they did have an affection for that. It was a huge hit. I take it back. It was still rubbish. It was terrible. But the Jetsons, yes, I'm aware of what it is, but I don't think there is a love for it over here as there is in the US.

56:28But also, I do have a thing against retrofuturism, which I don't love, generally. Really? It really rubs me up the wrong way, fall out, all of it. I don't, Tomorrowland, retrofuturism just, no, it gives me the, Fantastic Four? There's an element of it, the ickness is definitely there, like I don't, I don't enjoy that particularly, but this isn't about me being mental, it's, it's, you know, you've got to think about, like, who wants this, who's asking for this, like Trevorrow, you know, must love the Jetsons, in some fashion, or he wouldn't agree to do it, so clearly there is affection for this franchise, but, yeah, I don't have it.

56:58Yeah, I don't get it either, I mean, I'm, I didn't grow up on the Flintstones, because I remember the theme tune Meet George Jetson and then the rest of it. I think his wife's called Judy or maybe his daughter's Judy. He didn't have a yabba-dabba-doo like a cat froze, did he? And it wasn't as fun as a Flintstones. It did come up, like it comes up sometimes in the New York Times crossword and it's like, what's the name of their dog? What's the name of the son? I'm like, I don't remember. I think it's Astro and Elroy from, you know, figuring it out in the crossword. But that's not the point. Like, I don't remember in their own right.

57:34so but you know just the general sort of ridiculously over futuristic you know quasi 50s nuclear family there's no there there there's no plot there to work with but like if they can find one I guess it could be fun I'm not dismissing it out of hand it could be fun yeah I guess it could be fun it could be fun it could be fun it could be fun it could be fun alright Alright, what did you think of the other casting news I mentioned very, very quickly? The Wimu Misaku? She's great. Love it, she's fantastic. Yeah, okay. I don't know what she's doing, I don't know who she plays, but I'm here for it.

58:13As I said, she plays Twitter, and she's going to do an excellent job. No, she's just one character in the 140. Right. Or 280 now. I was about to say, yeah. Although back when this is set, it's probably still 140. Yeah, probably. Yeah, probably is. James Norton, the play Brian Epstein? I think that makes sense, he was famously handsome. Yeah. He was. So, yeah, it kind of works. A little bit older, but not massively, than the guys playing the foursome. Absolutely. So, yeah, I can see it. I wonder what massive drink of water they're going to get to play George Martin. It's got to be someone very tall.

58:46He was tall. He was taller than all four Beatles combined. Wow. He was taller than that. So, like Devastator. Yeah. Like the Transformers. They all combine together. To fight George Martin.

59:00he was massive he was massive he was like 8 feet 3 okay height was measured differently in the 1960s apparently it was actually it was measured differently for Napoleon so this I didn't realise it went all the way up to the 1960s how was height measured differently from Napoleon I think you've mentioned this before yeah English inches and French inches were slightly different so all the stories that he's extremely small were apparently exaggerated and he was apparently like average height but had an enormous cock Well, it is. It was cut off and preserved somewhere. Was that his Napoleon Boner part?

59:34Oh, boy. All right. I think I'm spent. I've exhausted my movie news. Second guest time. This time I will ask you, who do you want? We have Channing Tatum. Channing Tatum? Yeah, let's do it. And Kirsten Dunst. Even better. Lay out the stars of Ruth Man, which is a new film from Derek C in France. This is a true life tale about a man called Jeffrey Manchester who was caught and then imprisoned for his role, his solitary role, in robbing approximately 45 McDonald's. I thought he was only sent down for robbing one. They could only prove that he robbed one, but he robbed about 45 McDonald's. He got the name, the sobriquet, if you will, or Roof Man, because he would cut into the roofs of these McDonald's.

1:00:23The Hamburglar was right there. I know, but I think probably McDonald's wanted to see them. Then he would drop into the premises and then surprise the staff, put them into the freezer, run off with the cash. And this worked like gangbusters 44 times. The 45th time, not so much. He was caught. He went to prison. But he was the sort of guy who could spot patterns in systems and therefore escaped. He managed to see a couple of loopholes. He didn't dig a tunnel and then crawl through a river of shit and come out smelling clean on the other side. No, he just escaped from this prison. And while the cops were looking for him, he took refuge in a Toys R Us.

1:01:08In real life, it was a Toys R Us and a deserted circuit city next door to it. And there he lived, undetected, for essentially six months or so. I don't think this is a huge spoiler this is something you can look up Jeffrey Manchester is a real person you can look up his story right now I think it is important because of what we're about to talk about that you know that it didn't end well ultimately and that he did go back to prison he was caught and he is in prison right now and he's not going to be seen in the light of day until the year 2036 so he wasn't at the Roofman premiere well he was in for a very very long time so one of the things that they hit him with the judge who sent him down the first time who sentenced him the first time robbed one McDonald's but they were pretty sure he'd robbed another 44 and so they really wanted to throw the book at him so what they did was they went okay well each of those people you put into the freezer that was kidnapping and so they hit him with a kidnapping charge of I think 15 years for each of those three people but interestingly the judge who sent him down is in Roofman as are a lot of people who knew Jeffrey Manchester and Lee Wayne Scott who is a woman that Jeffrey Manchester using the pseudonym started a relationship with while he was hiding in Toys R Us he would venture out and he joined a local church and he would bring toys from the church to a toy drive that he had stolen and they fell in love and that's kind of the heart of Roofman it's about this love story between this incredibly likeable guy played by Channing Tatum who was narrating his story and Lee played by Kirsten Dunst who is a single mother with two kids that she's one of whom in particular she's really struggling to connect with and they form this bond.

1:02:51And this is a wonderful film. I'll talk about it later on in the reviews section. But I was so excited to talk to them together. And we talk about how they forged that bond, what it was like working with Derek C. in France as well. But we started off the interview by talking about the fact that Derek C. in France, he's in solitary confinement. I had literally just spoken to Derek C. in France. He told me this. I said Derek C. in France, didn't I? We started off the interview by talking about the fact that Geoffrey Manchester, he's in solitary confinement 23 and a half hours a day. And Derek C.

1:03:25and France told me this. He has not seen anything Derek C. and France has directed, but he has seen, for reasons I cannot fathom, Logan Lucky. They showed at the prison that he's in right now, they showed him and the other prisoners Logan Lucky. Probably, it was probably to explain why the latest Song of Ice and Fire book hadn't come out. That's probably it. But this is a film that has within it a successful prison break. So I don't know what the fuck they're doing over there, but that's where we started. Channing Tatum, Kirsten Dunst and I. And this was an absolute giggle. Do please enjoy. Channing, Kirsten, welcome to the Emperor Podcast.

1:04:03How are you both? Good. Yeah. Good, good, good. Excellent. Thank you. I spoke to Derek literally 10 minutes ago through that wall and he told me that... Through the wall. Through the wall. Derek's gone method by the way, he's now living within the walls of the hotel. He's got... That makes sense. Yeah. On some level, I would be like, all right. I'm not going to be shocked by that. I wouldn't be like, that's weird. Yeah, like roof director. Yeah, why not? Why not? He told me that Jeff Manchester has seen Logan Lucky, that they showed Logan Lucky to the inmates of the prison that Jeff Manchester is in.

1:04:43This seems like a silly idea, Channing. And that film has a prison break in it. Yeah. And not only that, but like a giant robbery. Like a huge robbery of NASCAR. Yeah. I actually didn't know that. I know that we talked about Logan Lucky, but I didn't know he had actually seen it. Yeah, apparently he has seen it. Yeah. I've talked to this man a lot. And I like, that's wild to me that he had seen the whole movie. Whoa. That's weird that he would say that. Yeah. Like, what else is showing? The Great Escape? I don't understand what's going on. You're Papillon. It's like... Shawshank. Let's just try to see if we can get one.

1:05:28Maybe that's what they're trying to do. Like, maybe someone can make a movie about this one day. But that's a hell of a thing. But obviously, you've spoken to Jeff. Kirsten, did you speak to Jeff at all during this? Did you feel it was necessary for you? I know you spoke to Lee. No, I didn't speak to Jeff. But yeah, I did speak to Lee. yeah I think that Derek had also recorded a conversation between Lee and himself and that gave me a lot of insight into who she was and that they really you know fell in love and that that the way that she talks about him now is with so much love and forgiveness and it really was for her and her family I mean I'm sure they went through a lot of pain and devastation but like it really was a adventure that's how they talk about it now the fact that they came out the other side and still feel that way about this man speaks to him the lie wasn't as big as what he gave them I guess in a way it was a big lie but I think and when you talk to him you kind of get it on some level he just is so I don't know without giving you like the experience of speaking to him, like it's harder.

1:06:42Yeah, people come into your life. It could be brief, but some little thing just makes you think about things differently maybe. Yeah, absolutely. And that experience of speaking to him, do you remember the first time you spoke to him? I presume it was during a screening of Logan Lucky at the prison. Yeah. And a Q &A afterwards. Yeah, exactly. Handing out tools. I had weirdly been working like working on the movie but like meaning like prepping for the movie yeah and and like I've I was kind of scared to talk to him and like he called me you can't call him he can only call you and you get 15 minutes at a time and they just cut it right off they don't care if you're in mid-sittance like it's just like it's clean let's go whatever and I think there was two times where I wasn't in the right place to talk to him for the first time.

1:07:34And I just panicked, and I just didn't pick up. And it still kills me today that I didn't have 30 minutes with him that I could have had. And then when I did pick up, because it was just fear, and I was like, oh, I'm not in the right place. I can't do this. I'm literally around 15 people. And then you just get on the phone with him, and it truly, all the whatever you think it's going to be just goes away. And I've said it so many times now, but he's just so warm and he takes care of you. He's so charismatic and optimistic and funny and yet genuine. You really find yourself genuinely liking this person, knowing that, yes, he definitely has done bad things and robbed things and made very questionable decisions.

1:08:29But whatever that magic that he has just makes you feel like, does he really deserve to be in here this long? Yeah, so beautiful. And that was the feeling that I had. So that was kind of, I guess, the intention of just being like, I don't know, I want to try to match that person and that energy that's on the other end of the phone and hope that it comes across in the movie. The relationship in the movie between Jeff or John and Lee is so beautiful and warm and human. And yet you know that a bad ending, an unhappy ending is coming. Can you talk about, did you have a lot of rehearsal time together?

1:09:09Because there's so much. We love rehearsing so much. We like every word that we were going to say. That feels like a no. We literally didn't meet until the first time we saw each other on screen. What? Yeah. Okay. There was no rehearsal. Okay. It was the red lobster scene where he walks into the table full of women. Oh, okay. That's pretty daunting. Very. It's daunting. And then add us never acting, rehearsing together ever. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I was nervous. It was like... Because you walk in and you try to, there's two things that you're sussing out, right? Like, well, it's probably way more than two things.

1:09:53But, like, you know, you can boil the biggest ones down to, like, okay, one, who is this person? Like, that I don't know. Yeah. And that we're about to, like, jump off the cliff of really trying to have a connection and, like, very intimate scenes. Very. They fall in love quick. And off the bat. Like, it's, like, first moment. Blush. Like, it's gone. we need so much pressure that's why I don't like doing romantic comedies I hate the pressure of falling in love he's like this is the meet cue here we go yeah so Derek Derek kind of gave us a favor by making it like we were actually yeah nervous and looking at each other's eyes like was that deliberate in his part of course everything is deliberate with that man yes it's one of what I want to kick the wall for because I could everything that happened to us in the movie, whether good or bad, I'm just like...

1:10:51He really put you through it with the random props and things like that. He definitely put me through the paces, but I do believe when you survive something, you're like, man, I have that now. And I was spent. He actually looked at me at the very last day, and he was like, you're just empty. And I'm so And I'm so, he said, you're just, you're so empty. And I'm so grateful that you emptied yourself into the movie. And then I cried. And then I got in the car and left. I was, I was, I was done. I don't know how to explain it. There's a process of Derek's journey with trying to find things that sometimes, you know, he'll find himself going down like a pathway of something that he's believing in and then he just goes no gotta go this way now and then he'll we'll just like go a completely different direction because he's he's just an ever um searching human of of what is going to surprise him like and what is going to shock him and what is what is what does he not know about the scene yet because he's already made the movie.

1:12:10It's mine. Right. Bloody hell. So Kirsten, you were saying that Derek had props that he just would hit you with? Did he do anything like that with you? Not hit us. Not literally hit. No. He was off camera. Just like a coffee. Like a coffee pot. You're like, all right, cool. I got to deal with this now. Act better. Stop sucking. You're going to get something heavier. How much did he do that with you? Did he really try to mess with you? I don't remember being... Because I didn't have props to... I don't feel like that. What I liked is that instead of rehearsing scenes like Kennedy and Lily, who play my daughters, we went to the grocery store together and cooked dinner and had Derek over and did an improvisation with Emery Cohen, who plays Otis in the movie.

1:13:09And so we kind of did things like that just to build, you know, those things come through and you're more comfortable with each other when you make an investment into who you're actually working with. And, you know, it was the opposite for me and Chan, you know? Like, it was like, okay, we're going to do it on camera right away. And then, but also by the end, like Derek, I just love the environment he sets up for you. It just leads to you doing really, you know, great work. And yeah, I really appreciated that, especially at the end, our last scene. I love that he shot our close-ups at the same time.

1:13:52Was that your very last thing you shot together? Yeah, I know. And we did it in only two takes. That's a hell of it. Yeah, and we were just there together. You know what I mean? Like that's the most magical thing for me is like when acting feels realer than real life. Yeah. I know that's a sad thing to say almost, but it's not. I wouldn't call it sad. I think it's a confusing thing because like it was me and you in the scene, meaning like you and me like as humans. but there you know definitely we're in that scene yeah but it somehow does this like magically weird meld of the two that all of a sudden everything goes away we just sat down next to each other and had a conversation that we knew what we knew what the scene was and whatnot but like kind of the scene goes away i don't remember very much of what i said other than the bangs like like like comment of D.

1:14:52And I just, it was all just so real that you don't really think about anything else. Like a dream and reality. That's why I love acting. You're like, oh, I lived so many lives today. Yeah, yeah. You're like, sometimes you're in a vacuum and sometimes you're laughing so like furiously that you can't physically stay in the scene. It's such a weird little space. Oh my God. That's why Lily and I used to stay at, we stayed at these corporate apartments and we would just drink beer and watch Hallmark movies together on the couch. I should have been. You did say one time, but for Jeff, Derek would never like that.

1:15:33I was literally in the weirdest house out in the middle of this strange, sorry, not strange neighborhood, but it was this weird house because it had trails for running and And then I was like, am I out here? By myself. I really just want to hang out with them. That's perfect. I know. It just happened the way it happened. It was good that you didn't have it. Yeah. The coziness. Lily and I were very cozy. We would have had too much fun, and then the whole movie would have been a comedy. Yeah. Absolutely. Oh, my God. So, Channing, I know you had a six-hour meeting with Derek in a park. so at no point in that six hours meeting six hour meeting did he say yeah any of this he wasn't gonna the way he was gonna direct one single thing uh did he even mention about on any project like you know because i'm like um being derrick like you know i have history with derrick and and like i've you know i was like i'm praying that he just like he's just like hey i'm thinking about this thing six straight hours and of just walking through parks and manhattan and like brooklyn and like and nothing we parted ways nine months later i get a call there's like a script that he wrote for me and i did not even understand the sentence in a way and i didn't even talk to him before i read the thing like he was just like no i don't talk to him just read the script see if you like and see if you like it and then i didn't talk to him after i read the script until we met back at Prospect Park in Brooklyn.

1:17:11And then we went on another six to plus probably hours walk. That's a hike. That's not just a hike. Well, it's weird when you get into a vacuum of walking and just talking. Yeah. Did you eat? Yeah, yeah. Not for water? Yeah, yeah. I just fixed you guys talking and nonstop for six hours. No, no, no. Just flagging at the end. We would go get a daiquiri or something. And then and then we sit and like have a meal and then we get up and keep walking and I was just like I'm just gonna keep this going like until like he taps out Go but here's time you ever had that with the director a six-hour meet six-hour chats Not not that long of a walk But the one director that took me for a walk in the woods was Lars von Trier He wanted to go walk in the wood.

1:17:58Of course he did. Yeah That's very Lars. How long was that? Six hours? Not three and six hours? Three hours? No, it was a normal walk. Okay. Yeah, I was not. I wasn't like, dang, we're still walking. No, it was. I need a documentary, Lars. And it was beautiful. And I don't even know if we, I don't know what we talked about. I don't remember. That is what's kind of beautiful about walking and talking is, God, there's a very famous director that he would do this and i think that's maybe where some of these people like kind of get it from yeah uh is it kafka i don't know who it is but it's someone it's someone that like is kazan kazan actually yeah he like he was like i want to take i he didn't do i don't know if he did auditions properly but like he would the person that he was gonna like go on this journey with acting wise he would just go for walks with them and get to know them because there's something else that happens rather than just sitting here and like staring at somebody and like and you feel like they're looking at you you're looking at them you're whatever there's so much happening there's so much happening around that you can just sort of like stream of consciousness like talk and you get a different sense of someone okay that was janet hatem and kirsten dunst stars of roofman which is out right now in all good but not evil cinemas around the country uh it's now time to talk about that movie and indeed others in our reviews section hell spells yes roof man yes um this is uh this is kind of an old-fashioned movie in some ways you know it's heavily powered by just star power by charisma by channing tatum being extremely likable and hangdog and charming um but he is a guy who's really fucking stupid like he you know he's he's come he's he's a former army guy.

1:19:54He's come out of the service. He's kind of struggling to give his family the life that he thinks he should be able to provide. And so he starts, as you said, this series of armed robberies. Bad decision. I mean, just a bad decision. They don't give a hoot about the money he's able to spend on them. They want him there, which is something that he fundamentally doesn't grasp. And then goes to prison, not great outcome for him, makes the other bad decision to escape, and then, you know, takes up with someone else and kind of, you know, messes up her life or certainly risks messing up her life as well.

1:20:29And so it's kind of a slightly misleading film in some ways because you're really with him the whole way through it and you really want this guy to somehow get away with this and everything to turn out right for him because he wants the best for everybody around him. He's trying to help everybody around him. He's just doing it in dumbass fucking ways. And I think I felt like the film ultimately didn't 100 % reckon with that. I'm saying this because this is my only big note about the film. I had a really good time watching it. I just enjoyed the madness of his insane lamb from the law. I thought that, you know, his chemistry with Kirsten was really good.

1:21:10Her performance was really good. I liked the sort of the reality and the realism of the kind of tension she had with her boss at her job. He's played by Peter Dinklage. And he's a real dickhead in this. like he really is. So I enjoyed all of that, but I just did feel ultimately that the film didn't reckon with the fact that whatever his good intentions, he did cause a whole lot of chaos and heartbreak for the people he left behind. And I felt like because they forgave him, the film sort of just let him away with it and didn't really deal with it. And I kind of wanted a bit more. Having said that, it is a really entertaining film.

1:21:45It's well-written. It's quite long for the amount of plot that there is, but I think that's to give it time to give these characters time to really connect and really, you know, forge some kind of relationship, to give him time to win over her extremely skeptical elder daughter, you know, to try and just really ground it in a place and a time. And I appreciated that they did that, even though I think you probably could still cut maybe 10 minutes somewhere, you know. But yeah, really entertaining. like I say my only big no is that I did feel like it kind of let him off the hook is too strong but I felt like it kind of just let its sympathy for him overcome itself well it's very subjective telling me it very much is it is his story yeah it is his story you know I don't know that he's he's stupid he's superficially stupid and he makes bad decisions but he also as the film points out he does kind of have a genius level IQ and he's capable of seeing things that yeah he's quite good at we would not spot spotting and I think all that that's you know they root that in his military training and everything that he's kind of gone through.

1:22:51He's good at noticing things. He's good at seeing the opportunities. He's good at transforming them into something. But yeah, his decisions are bad decisions. That's what I mean. I think Tatum's inspired Castian in this because we've watched him over the years become this incredible, I think incredible comedic actor. If you want proof of that, just watch either of the Jump Street movies. he was CN France's first choice for Blue Valentine way back in the day back in 2010 and Tatum said no because he didn't think that he could play that role that he could he didn't think he could bring what that role needed and this role is really complex this guy Jeffrey Manchester has to be likable but a dunderhead he has to be relatable but also not so relatable that you find yourself really rooting for him when he does some of the worst things that he does in this movie.

1:23:43But you have to see why Lee falls for him. Yes. Because she is quite sensible as well. She's not going to just fall for anybody. No. And the film does a really good job of explaining how he kind of disarms her. Absolutely. You have to see the pain that he is feeling as well, this need for connection. He's living in this little room that he's fashioned in this Toys R Us, eating peanut M &Ms and his teeth are going to shit and you have to feel the pain that he wants to connect with his daughter who he can't see anymore. That, and there are moments in this where Tatum is really nakedly emotional and I think that this film is, for me, okay, full disclosure, I love this film.

1:24:23I think it's one of my films of the year. I think it's tremendous. It won't be in the Oscar race, but it damn well should as far as I'm concerned, particularly Tatum and Dunst who are terrific in this. They do really, really great emotionally affecting work, especially in the last 10 minutes of the movie. I think that this movie's been slightly mis-marketed as a caper comedy and there's a lot more going on under the hood or under the roof of this film than I think the marketing has elucidated. I mean, if it gets people in the door, I guess. If it gets people in the door, yeah. It made$8 million in its opening weekend last weekend in the States, which is okay.

1:25:03And if it does continue you to be part of the Oscar race and who knows it may power its way to 30 or 40 million or so but I would urge you to go see this film because I think you will have a good time and you will find some lovable characters people haven't even mentioned Ben Mendelsohn's in this yeah very very briefly Peter Dinklage Emery Cohen people like that who's in Aduba yeah absolutely really really good cast and C.N. Francis first movie in nine years whoa would you believe he's made an HBO show in the interim but this is his first movie in nine years, I think it might be his best. We've given it four stars.

1:25:39Four stars in for Roofman. Next up, Jimbo. Something's ringing. Jimbo, should you pick up that thing that is ringing? I will pick up this black phone which appears to be on the... Hello? Hang on. Hello? No, it's not working. You mean it's not connected but you can hear it hanging? was Ethan Hawke on the other end he wasn't no it was very disappointing so this is Scott Derrickson's The Black Phone 2 which is a sequel to Chex Notes The Black Phone yeah not just a clever title yes in which Ethan Hawke played a serial killer called The Grabber yes who imprisoned a young boy played by Mason Thames yeah but found that there was more to this young boy than meets the eye yeah right now he wasn't a transformer he wasn't a transformer that would have been amazing he was a Decepticon yes it all ended badly and so okay spoiler alert for The Black Phone It did not end well for Ethan Hawke's The Grabber.

1:26:36The Grabber did not emerge unscathed. Yes. So how is he back in The Black Phone 2? Well, this is the big question, isn't it? Because The Black Phone's really, really good. So Scott Derrickson, great horror director, and what he did with that film, which is based on a short story by Joe Hill, he and C. Robert Cargill kind of adapted it. It's very tight. It's very contained. It's very focused. It is literally just a young boy is abducted by a serial killer and he manages to outwit the serial killer by contacting the Grabber's previous victims, who are all dead, communicates with them. He has the shine.

1:27:09He has the shine. Yeah, exactly. He has a supernatural ability and he communicates with the dead. Now, the Grabber is, as you so correctly say, dead. Which kind of makes the sequel slightly difficult. When has that ever hurt a horror movie? Come on. But a lot has been made of the fact that the Grabber, or rather the Black Phone franchise, is pivoting to the supernatural with the second film. but obviously the first film is... That's what the conversation has been. But of course the first film is supernatural but it is delicately supernatural. It is a ghost story but it is about a flesh and blood serial killer.

1:27:40This is very much about an undead serial killer. So they've gone into slightly dappy, goofy territory at this point. So this sort of takes place four years after the events of the first film. So Mason Thames character Finney Blake is heavily traumatised and generally getting into fights and beating the shit out of people at his school and smoking a lot of weed to kind of dull the pain a little bit. But meanwhile, his sister Gwen, played by Madeleine McGraw, who in the first film had very ill-defined sort of premonition, sort of psychic abilities, but was never really explored. So she kind of takes centre stage here, and it's her psychic abilities that form the kind of backbone of this story because she starts to have dreams.

1:28:17There are, yes, ringing phones, and yes, the grabber may not be entirely gone to the great hereafter. They're trying to find out what has happened to some missing children as part of this storyline who are kind of communicating to them, again, via phone from beyond the grave. Great reception in the afterlife. It's brilliant. And they end up at a kind of Christian summer camp, and that's where a lot of this unfolds. I have a few issues with this. And I think, on the one hand, I think the first one is so good because it is so well-contained. It's really chilling. It has a realism to it, even though there are ghosts in it.

1:28:49And it's really, really... There's no fat on it. It's a really lean storyline, and I love it. And this one is a really weird confection of ideas. and all the way through this I was thinking mainly where is the line between rip-off and homage? Like at what point are you saying oh yes I'm showing you my influences or at what point do you say I'm just ripping off A Nightmare on Elm Street because for me genuinely like this leans so heavily into the kind of Krugerverse that I just felt like it felt like it had no new ideas at all because everything in this film has been done in one of the many Nightmare on Elm Streets at various points and it leans heavily on that kind of mythology and on that kind of idea of something that can get you in your dreams and your dreams affect what happens in the real world.

1:29:32And there are some fun ideas here, exploring Gwen's psychic powers. And this comes back to the thing that you know I always have an issue about, which is the kind of pissing in the pool thing. But especially when it comes to speculative fiction and horror, I think... You've never mentioned this. I know, I don't go on about it at all. But I think a lot of the power of these stories is in the unknown and in the stuff they leave unexplained. And I think leaving you to connect the dots is an important part of these mythologies. and I think when you start to explain everything away, you just take all the power out of a story.

1:30:00So I don't need to know the extents and the boundaries of Gwen's psychic powers. I certainly didn't need to know the fucking Grabber's origin story. I'll also say that some of the dialogue here is actively excruciating, just so on the nose, so heavy-handed. There are actual kind of like, you know, exposition dump monologues that I was just, my toes were curling at. So I really struggle with that. But I should say, it's not a bad film at all. But I guess why I'm focusing on the negative a little bit is because I really, really, really loved the first one. And so I was heavily disappointed by this one, which just felt a little bit meh.

1:30:34Like, it was fine, it was okay, but it just wasn't special and it wasn't great. It's good, it's not great, it's okay, it's nothing new. And the only other thing I would say is there is a big sort of sequence towards the end, which, look, and I won't get into the details, but for logistical reasons, I totally understand why it probably wasn't feasible to do this on location. but I found the green screen of it all so overwhelmingly distracting the soundstaginess of it that it really took me out of the storyline had they forgotten to fill it in it was just a big green curtain it was very odd the green phone yeah so yeah so I came out of this disappointed okay so this is we should point out as well that the first one as you say was based on a Joe Hill short story slash novella which is terrific and this one is not this is an original idea by Derrickson and his writing partner C.

1:31:22Robert Cargill And yeah, and I don't think that's a bad thing. I think the basic idea of this is solid. Like they're not just trying to do the same thing again. It's not, you know, a different serial killer, you know, kidnapping kids or a different serial killer with a totally different MO that Vinnie and Gwen have to face. You know, they are trying to do something that feels distinct. And I appreciate that. I do. This is much more of a ghost story. And that's an interesting thing to kind of lean into. and I like the fact that the first one didn't really feel like the way you worded it it sounded like Finney was reaching out I felt more like it was the ghost reaching to him they were literally calling him up on the phone and they kind of do that again and the real terror here because it's pretty much Gwen's film and the real terror she has is is this power legit am I seeing something true or is this going to drive me mad and kill me because my mother had mental illness and she did die so that kind of thing I thought was really interesting I think the problem that this one faces is that the first one had so much physical menace.

1:32:25For most of the first film, you have a kid locked in a basement by a serial killer who comes in and out with no warning and you are terrified for him the entire time. The sequence where he's trying to escape and the grabber is asleep. Have we mentioned Ethan Hawke plays the grabber? He does. He does. And that is, you know, so there is just constant fear in that first film. so you're just so on edge the whole time and this one there were long periods where I felt everybody was safe and I didn't really feel that very much in the first film because you know I just I was hopeful obviously that Mason Thames character would get to the end of the film he seemed like he was the hero but what if he's not and they kill him halfway through and then his you know his little sister has to whatever this time I was like I feel like this person's safe and this person's safe and this person's safe and they're definitely safe right now because they're all together and you know it's daytime and the lights are on or whatever and i didn't have that constant terror yeah interesting um so so that was the big difference for me and i also think that some of those big ideas about about gwen and about trauma and so on kind of disappear trauma for a more traditional kind of face the bad guy last act so it's kind of lost it a little bit for me okay but still plenty of scares and like i say i do give them credit for not just trying to do the same thing again for trying to do something distinct different tone slightly different energy copied a different film instead well okay but you know I don't think copy is the word but you know went for a different vibe heavily deeply incredibly inspired by oh boy yeah anyway not a grabber I'm saying alright so Blackphone 2 Grabber's Revenge is out right now we gave it Helen I think three stars I went a little bit back and forth but I think I ended up on three Helen she thinks she's ended up on three Could be two, could be three, we think three.

1:34:15All right. Next up, we have the new film from Luca Guadagnino. Hell's Bells, tell us about After the Hunt, please. Yeah, so this is set in the Ivy League, specifically, I think, in Yale. And it centers on two professors. So you have Julia Roberts' Alma, who is up for tenure. She's started a career a little bit late, but she's doing well. You have her colleague, Hank, who's played by Andrew Garfield, who is also out for tenure. They could both get it. Neither of them could get it. One of them can get it. Will their friendship survive? This is what they're most concerned about as the film starts.

1:34:50And then Maggie, Ayo Edebiri's character, comes to Alma and says that Hank sexually assaulted her. And so Alma's kind of, you know, paralyzed within it. She's like, well, obviously, I, you know, hashtag believe women and so on, but also he's my friend and I trust him and what is happening here. and a lot of buried stuff in her own past kind of leads her to react badly and then things roll out of control and get bigger and bigger and bigger. So it becomes more than just a he said, she said. It becomes a generational clash. It becomes a male-female clash. It becomes an institutional power versus the individual clash.

1:35:35Everybody's whole lives and careers suddenly seem to be at stake. and so everybody's thrown into this kind of crazy moral dilemma, essentially, or at least ethical dilemma. And it unfolds from there. You also have Michael Stuhlberg as Frederick, who's Alma's husband, Chloe Sevigny as Kim, who's her closest friend, a few other people. But that's really the core of the film, is really about these three people. This is a knotty problem. Very knotty. it brings up a lot of ideas and a lot of stuff that's really quite current and then it just goes off in a direction that ends up not to me saying very much about anything which i think is not great for a very high profile you know star-led film about the sort of you know hashtag me too moment i feel like it sort of swerves i guess responsibility is probably too strong a word they would say we've got the right to tell the story that we want to tell and that is absolutely true but I then have the right to say well you didn't really engage with the moment that we're in and you didn't really tackle any of the what I see as the real issues here I don't think that this gets much in much beyond the idea of oh there's a generational misunderstanding here and I don't think it says anything quite as profound as I certainly would like it to say or that I think it would like to say because I don't think you come out of it really reconsidering anything much.

1:37:06So what did you feel after the hunt? Not very much? Not very much. I think, look, they're great performances. You know, nobody is off key here. Everybody's on form. I think Julia Roberts doesn't actually often play this kind of steely, cold character. You know, there is none of the kind of charm and charisma of like an Erin Brockovich or anybody like that here. She smiles, I think, twice. You know, it's a very, very kind of lockdown for her. Andrew Garfield is the one being all charming and loose and hey, doesn't everybody love me? Michael Stuhlbarg is weird and eccentric and by some distance my favourite character in the movie.

1:37:40That's the case with most things that Michael Stuhlbarg is in. He's freaking great in it. I just felt like it just seemed to actively not want to say anything. And I don't understand the impulse behind that. I was frustrated by it. It's not a short film either. And so I hope that it would achieve a little bit more in its runtime. time. Well, we gave this three stars. Three stars in. That's a lot of star power. So maybe people want to go and see great actors acting at each other. The performances are very good. I just don't think that the story could really match them. Okay. Two films to talk about very, very quickly.

1:38:16They are out in limited release in cinemas around the country this week. And in fact, this week, but where they are, I do not know. You're going to have to look at your local listings or the IMDb or whatever it is people look at these days to find out whether either Guillermo del Toro's Frankenstein or Edward Berger's Ballad of a Small Player are going to be playing at a cinema near you before they hit Netflix. Ballad of a Small Player, I think, is going to be hitting Netflix either next week or the week after. And Frankenstein is going to be hitting on November 17th, I believe. So we'll review those films in depth when everybody can see them in a couple of weeks' time.

1:38:53But right now, Guillermo del Toro, huge fan of Frankenstein he's been wanting to make this movie for 50 years he's finally made it Oscar Isaac as Victor Frankenstein Jacob Elordi as the creature Mia Goth as Elizabeth who may be a woman who inspires them both in very very different ways Christoph Waltz is also in there as Dr. King Schultz what did you make of this? has it been worth the wait? has Guillermo smashed it out of the park? what can people expect? I wanted to maybe love this more than And I did, and I look forward to seeing it again, see if I love it more. But what I did love about this is it is maximum gothic.

1:39:33It could not be more gothic romance slash gothic horror. Just visually, just tonally, you can absolutely just immerse yourself in it. Nothing has ever been more del Toro than some visuals in this movie. It immediately drew comparisons in my mind to Francis Ford Coppola's, Bram Stoker's Dracula, and just, and obviously, you know, something like Crimson Peak and things like del Toro's done before, but just, it is so OTT. I love it. I didn't always love the pacing and the storytelling quite as much, but I thought it's still worth watching because it's Guillermo del Toro finally doing Frankenstein and you can feel the joy of that on screen.

1:40:17I did not feel the joy, sadly. You shocked me. Yeah, I was a little disappointed but for kind of the reasons you touched on there, I think the pacing and the structure, I think, could do with tightening. It could also do with losing some runtime. It's two and a half hours long. It does look beautiful, but yeah, I think I wanted a little bit more from it. All right, well, we'll get into it in detail in a couple of weeks' time, but I will say that I did the Empire feature for this and spoke to Guillermo del Toro, and I said to him at one point, you know, what is this movie going to be? Because whenever I hear the words Guillermo del Toro's Frankenstein, an image of that movie pops into my head and he replied he said that's what you're getting the best way to put it is in the immortal words of Abraham Lincoln for the people that like this type of thing this is the type of thing they're gonna like and that is I think pretty much it's spot on I'm not sure what we've given this four stars we have given it four stars four stars four stars then for Guillermo de Torres Frankenstein we'll get into it in a couple weeks time I'm not sure what we've given Ballad of a Small Player just yet but what would you say about this this is a really interesting one to me So this is Colin Farrell playing an inveterate, addictive gambler who is living in Macau and is down to his last, you know, last...

1:41:33Wad of cash. Wad of cash. Admittedly, it's a wad, but still it's his last one. Desperate for a win, desperate for a lucky streak. And that's when he meets Fala Chen, who is, I mean, let's be honest, a loan shark who offers to kind of spot him alone that may change his fortunes, maybe. or may get him in worse. This is, I thought, beautiful looking. It's absolutely, you know, neon saturated, all of the lights of the city. They did all this filming on location. A lot of it in actual working casinos. It looks freaking cool. He's in all these colorful suits and everything else. I liked it. I don't know if I loved it, but it has stayed with me more than I thought it would when I first saw it.

1:42:13Exactly the same, actually. Yeah, I thought coming out of it, you know, it was positive but not wild about it. but it's really, really sticking with me. And if you think that Colin Farrell is wildly miscast in the first half, give it time because you really do come to understand why he is playing that role. And I think it really justifies that as the film goes on. So yeah, I'd probably be a four on this personally at this point. But yeah, I really ended up liking it. Yeah, yep, yep, yep, yep. Maybe not quite as good as Conclave or All Quiet in the Western Front. But I adore Conclave. But yeah, Berger is, I still think, on very much a roll.

1:42:50All right, we'll review that film in depth in a few weeks' time. But right now, I've got to set up our final guests, who are Mason Thames and Madeleine McGraw. Thankfully, we've reviewed Blackphone 2 already, so I don't have to do that much setting up. Here they are talking to Sophie Butcher. Enjoy. We are delighted to welcome to the Empire podcast today the stars of Blackphone 2, Mason Thames, Madeleine McGraw. How are you guys doing? Doing great. How about you? Really good, thank you. Excited to talk to you about this one. It's been a few years now since the original film came out. It was such a big hit.

1:43:26Did you have any idea back then that a sequel would be coming? Or can you remember when you were first told that it was happening? For me, I remember Scott telling us at the press junket, or at least me, he was like, yeah, we're going to do the second one. Yeah, yeah, he said something. He hinted to us. And then I was like, what are you talking about? Like, what, is somebody getting kidnapped? again like what is going to happen are they going to do that yeah but at the same time like we like we fully trust scott and cargill and the people a part of that team so we knew whatever they were going to do is going to be a really fun continuation and and respect you know this world and these characters which it did and um yeah yeah but honestly no idea but um i yeah had no clue what they were going to do i remember we were trying to think of like theories and what possible ways they could continue this told us a camp what does that what does that mean what What does that mean?

1:44:16What they actually did was just so shocking. Totally caught me off guard. Yeah, absolutely. It goes in a great new kind of direction, but a really, really interesting one. Can you tell me a little bit about each of your characters, where we find Finny and Gwen at the start of this new film? It's obviously been a couple of years since everything with the grabber, but what kind of headspace are they in? How are they feeling? What are they dealing with when we find them? Finny, he was a complicated dude in the first movie, and in this one, still so. It's not more complicated. Yeah, probably. I mean, you watch a lot of like horror movies and stuff and, you know, in the sequel, the character is dealing with their trauma, but also like in this new place and kind of forgets about everything.

1:45:00And this one, what I love so much about it is, you know, he hasn't dealt with any of that and he's really trying not to. And, you know, I don't think this is a spoiler. him just he's drowning out his PTSD and his memories and you know he wakes up sometimes in the middle of the night and he still sees him he still sees that basement he still sees the grabber and he smokes a lot of weed to try to you know get it out of his mind but it never really works so he kind of stays to himself and he's an angry bottled up person and uh yeah that was fun to play but also seeing in hints of scenes you know who Finney really was and trying to bring him back was really fun for me.

1:45:43And me and Scott had a lot of talks about it. So yeah, it was cool. For Gwen, I feel like definitely compared to the first movie, we come back and see her in a totally different headspace. She is definitely dealing with a lot of the trauma from the past. I feel like there's no way to kind of avoid that. And it's definitely shaped her into kind of the human that she is today. I feel like she's definitely different in the ways where she was more extroverted in the first film. But now that everyone is finding out about her visions that she has, it's definitely made her more reserved and kind of feel like an outcast.

1:46:21So I feel like she's definitely trying to figure out how to balance school, being bullied, taking care of Finney, or trying to be there for him with all his PTSD and stuff. but also trying to find herself and who she is and why she has these visions. So it was definitely much more challenging coming back to her this time around, I'll definitely say. Yeah, absolutely. These kids have been through so much, it boggles the mind to think about it. And they were so young. And generally, just with these movies, there's some really dark themes going on. And you were both so young the first time around.

1:46:56You've grown up significantly since. I mean, how did it feel to come back to these characters as, I guess, more mature or more experienced actors? Did you feel like you could connect with them on a bit of a deeper level this time around? Yeah. I mean, yeah. I mean, Finny in this one, he's vastly different from, I think, who I am as a person. And in the first movie, we were pretty similar. I was a 13-year-old kid, very quiet, introverted. And over those four years, a lot has happened in my life to change that. And seeing where I am now and seeing where Finney goes from there is a big difference.

1:47:33And going into that, and especially since, you know, I've worked on a couple films and stuff. And just as an actor, I feel like we grow over time. So getting to come back to Finney, you know, and just try my best to go out there and give this character my all to this story. It was such an honor. So for me, it was kind of interesting because I really felt like I could relate to Gwen in the first movie in a lot of different ways. I still feel like I can relate to her in some ways, but I do feel like we are a lot more different this time around. So for me, it was much more challenging coming back to her.

1:48:08I also was feeling a lot of pressure knowing that the focus is more on her and her dreams that she has. So I was definitely very scared going into it because I also wanted to honor what we had done so beautifully in the first movie. But yeah, it was interesting having to find her again. I had a lot of conversations with Scott. There would be nights before filming where I'd just call him and be like, Scott, I'm really nervous. I would love to talk through this scene with you and get your input. I feel like that's one of the great things about Scott is that we have this sort of very honest trust with each other.

1:48:41And so we're able to tell each other our thoughts or opinions on scenes or how our characters would react. It's very collaborative. That's one of the reasons I love working with him so much. But yeah, no, it was definitely interesting getting to connect with her on such a deeper level this time around and really get to show all these things that she's going through and how she's changed as a character. But also, you know, I've grown up to since since the first movie. And so seeing the ways that we've grown differently, but also similar was a very interesting thing to kind of to kind of dissect.

1:49:13you know yeah absolutely and as an audience member to see the kind of changes over the years and how that's reflected in both you and the characters it's it's really interesting um you both have such a lovely like sibling chemistry in this um it's very believable as brother and sister which is lovely obviously you've kind of started that from the first film but how did you build on that here were you guys hanging out a lot on set what did you get up to between takes i mean it's always kind of we always had like a brother sister relationship so that's always just kind of been easy like whenever we see each other after a long time it's just it's just back it's never it's always that hey kid how are you doing yeah but um she's so great so and especially in like emotional scenes and stuff we have to do we're always there for each other for sure and i think that's so important especially with a lot of scenes we have in these movies it's it's it's a lot yeah i remember one scene we did where we were in the cabinet stuff and scene wakes up for her yeah yeah you wake up and I just remember you know uh just seeing her that way made me so sad and I think being there for each other those type of times when they all cut it's it's really important just to keep us okay as people because when we go to those places and in this movie our characters definitely went to these places and being there for each other is so important and um yeah yeah absolutely speaking of um out in the in the cabins and stuff a lot of this film takes place alpine lake this this youth camp in these very snowy mountains yeah it felt like the perfect yeah it felt like the perfect movie for this time of year where you can really feel the cold like the weather's changing it's really nice um i know you shot um in toronto but how much how much of the alpine lake stuff was on location how much was a soundstage were you actually out in the cold literally almost 90 of it was like we were actually at a camp and the snow was there the lake was the lake was actually frozen over.

1:51:10The only scenes that I would say were on the stage when we were in snow was the cabin, like the bunk beds. And the kitchen. And the kitchen, but also when we were on the lake. That was fake, because obviously, you know, they're not gonna have to do that in real life, so. That's a bit of a hazard, putting - That is, that's a bit of a safety risk. But no, it was nice. It was so awesome getting to actually work in the snow because it was definitely immersive, to say the least. We were actually raising our butts off. it definitely helped i'd say i was gonna say that like was it one of those weird cases where it was actually warm and you had to act cold but no you were cold oh no this is the first movie i've done where we're actually in the season we're supposed to be in it yeah yeah oh it was so cold if anything we had to kind of like act like we weren't shivering a lot of the time yeah that was the hardest part and gwen's in her little pjs so much i know no cover no cover whatsoever no jackets like come on i know she had like like three or four layers underneath it just none of none of it could help none of it did nothing yeah it was piercing yeah i bet i bet i can imagine just watching it i felt cold um i wanted to talk about there's some really great like action scenes with the grabber in this one um madeline for you in particular gwen faces up against him in her dreams he's kind of throwing you around it looks like there was some cool like wire work going on i I mean, can you talk us through shooting those scenes?

1:52:38Is it fun to get involved with the stunt and the action stuff? Oh, it is beyond fun. That is my favorite part. Yeah, he knows. I talk about it all the time. It is my favorite part of the process for sure. I love getting to do all the stunt choreography and all the fighting. It's Scott knows that's my favorite kind of stuff. So he literally told me when he wrote the script, he was like, Maddie, I made sure to include a lot of stunts for you because I know how much you love it. And he actually convinced our stunt coordinator, Bronco, to let me do almost all my own stunts. I got to do almost all of them myself, which was so, so cool for me.

1:53:12And no, it's really exciting, but it's also interesting because it's very particular. Like a punch has to land correctly, otherwise it won't look real. I remember the scene specifically with Ethan in the kitchen. He'd come to set so we could do stunt rehearsal. and first of all, I was like kind of scared when he got there because, you know, it's Ethan Hawke and it was like kind of a nod. I literally said that in an interview. I was like, he just drifts with aura. It was just, it was really interesting, you know, having him like swing the axe at me and having to get every, all the timing correct.

1:53:45It's very precise. But some of my favorite stuff because it is so fun and it just looks so cool on camera if done correctly. So yeah, it was all around an awesome experience yeah so cool and I love the way Scott changes like when it's in Gwen's perspective and it looks different compared to your life it just feels so yeah retro immersive I love it um you bring up Ethan I would love to talk about him a little bit I mean he's so great in his films but he's also aura great way to describe it he's a total legend I mean now you've worked with him multiple times like how how would you describe that experience is there anything in particular you'd say you've learned from him that you're kind of taking with you i mean for me i actually didn't get to work with him at all in the first movie so right for me it was a lot more like intimidating working with him in the second film because you know it's ethan hawk like master class actor here and so there were days my first day working with him on set i was so nervous like so nervous for the first day what were you guys shooting was the

1:54:51okay no spoilers no spoilers no spoilers and so i kind of felt a lot of pressure at times going in to some of the scenes with him because you know i wanted to perform at my best for yeah hawk you know but um it was also so interesting getting to see his approach to his characters and especially you know the grabber i feel like it's really different from any character yeah i've played So getting to see how he approaches that and it was, I feel like I learned a lot listening to him and Scott have conversations on set and the stories they would tell to each other. And also the way he has this mask on almost the entire day on set.

1:55:28It's really interesting to try and figure out when he's in character and when he's not. Yeah. Right. It is a little, it's a little confusing. There were times when he'd be like humming or whistling on set and I'd be like, so I don't know if he's trying to be creepy or if he's chilling. In the first movie, I'd be sitting on the bed, and he'd be on the staircase just in between. Just walking back and forth? No, no, no. He would just be sitting on the stairs just zoning out like that. Wow. Does he still want to kill me? Yeah, I think that's so hard to tell with his mask on. Yeah, I would pass by him and be like, hey, bud.

1:55:58Yeah, exactly. And then in between scenes, he'll be like, you did great. Or like, great job. Yeah, he's so great. Thank you. That's really disturbing to try and figure out. You just wanted to be lovely all the time. And great to hear he keeps the mask on. Is he like, he's being kind of method with it, but then... No, he kind of has to because he has prosthetics on. Yeah, he has a lot of... Of course. A lot of good stuff. He's being prosthetic in this one, so... Yeah. These are some of my favorite modern horrors, I would say, of the past few years. And I was just wondering for you guys, what are some of your favorite horror movies, basically?

1:56:32Is there any that you were watching specifically ahead of this or that you took inspiration from? Okay, my favorites with movies kind of changes a lot. Yeah. Depending on what my mood is. I feel like for me though, a classic is Silence of the Lambs. That film is so iconic and just so dark, which is why I love it so much is because it kind of messes with your mind. Silence of the Lambs, sinister, gotta throw that out there. It's so well done. It is so, it's beautiful in such a disturbing way. You know, like cinematography wise, it's gorgeous. this um but that and I'm gonna throw in a Nightmare on Elm Street because I feel like that's such a classic horror movie you know yeah I'm going with one movie I'm going with The Thing uh interesting such a fantastic film and so and what's what's crazy is when that film came out it it did not do well it came out the same year as E.T.

1:57:24you just didn't know it was way way ahead of the time yeah but January that movie is so beautiful the setting the acting the cinematography the the just feeling the gut feeling you have because you don't know what's going on and i watched that specifically and for black phone too just the setting of it and the snow and yeah yeah kind of it kind of makes everybody lose their minds a little bit and while i was filming we kind of i feel like we all were losing our minds and just having that and you can really feel it in the film it kind of feels like a fever dream and it's kind of uh it's kind of fitting with dealing with the dreams and stuff in this movie, just kind of the dream setting this lake has.

1:58:05And it's eerie. Okay, that was Sophie Butcher talking to Mason Thames and Madeline McGraw. And Black Fun 2, of course, is in cinemas right now. Go see it or get the grabber to show it to you in your dreams. I don't know. But anyway, on that note, that is it for this week's Empire Podcast. Join us next week for more film-related fun. We'll be joined by... Oh, my word. I've done it again. Oh, no. Overbooking? Big time. But good people. Hey. Good people. Jeremy Strong. Woo. Yeah, we like him. He's the star of Springsteen, Deliver Me From Nowhere. I spoke to him this morning. It was fun. Nia DaCosta.

1:58:45Yay. Director of HEDA. Helen spoke to her on a phone, no less, but next to each other. In person, but recorded on a phone. Yeah, because I fucked up. Let's be honest, I fucked up. And then Rebecca Ferguson and Catherine Bigelow, star and director of A House of Dynamite. Oh, my word. What an embarrassment of riches. Indeed. But until next week's embarrassment, until then, until a suspicious occasion, it is goodbye for my two colleagues of such lethal cunning. Goodbye, James Dyer. Goodbye, Chris. Goodbye, Helen O 'Hara. Toodaloo. And it's goodbye for me. I am off to, and this is not a lie, cram my mouth with sausage because they have put on a, what is it they put on?

1:59:29Oktoberfest. They put on Oktoberfest in the building and there is German sausage upstairs. Enough for everybody. Or one big massive one that we're all going to have to pounce upon it like a Yorkshire terrier. Yeah. Either way, I'm in. Thanks for listening. See you next time. Bye. Yum.