Droopy Is Not A Looney Tune Character (ft. special guest, David Lowery)

23:52like I feel like it's a film it's a film trailer that doesn't even want you to know who Lee Pace is going to be romancing in the film like it's literally left that open it's definitely going to be Nicole but I feel like that's they don't even want to commit to that they don't want to tie themselves down in any way with this trailer it does have a weird halo of kind of CG-ness never mind kind lighting I think it was actually all shot here in the UK rather than anyone ever going to a New England town. But I'm still here for it. This, by the way, if you don't know, is Nicole Kidman and Sandra Bullock as sisters who are witches, who now have grown-up daughters who are witches, and still with us, aunts who are witches, and anyone who falls in love with them dies, which is real bad news for Lee Pace, who appears to be in their firing line.

24:42So that's going to be fun.

24:44Ben Travis:I watched this trailer with you, and the smile on your face when Lee Pace came on screen. It's a beautiful thing. He's a beautiful man. Your happiness makes me happy. Ah, thanks, man. That was not the only big trailer this week. We also have Coyote vs. Acme, which is finally happening. It's going to come out. Yes, I'm very, very excited about that, given the history that that film had. But Amon, are you not worried about the tax return? Surely releasing this film will deeply impact their receipts. So just to be clear, this is the film that Warner Brothers originally wrote off for a tax write-down.

25:17It stars Will Forte as a sort of bottom-feeding lawyer who gets hired by Coyote to sue Acme, who are represented in court by John Cena, I believe. I couldn't see him. And yeah, it's a sort of legal drama about Looney Tunes. Cannot wait. Absolutely hyped. The trailer, I thought, was really, really good fun. And I'm just really glad that for everyone who worked really hard on this film that it's finally getting seen.

25:45Ben Travis:Yes, 100%. I spoke to Dave Green a few months ago for Empire. Who's that? He's the director of Coyote vs. Acme. And yeah, it was a really great chat. He was saying that this will be like the Avengers of Looney Tunes movies and that Coyote, he's trying to give him the Iron Man treatment, essentially. But there'll be cameos from other sort of characters. We see Bugs Bunny in the trailer. I think he's like a deep throat character. Yeah. So yeah. Who is your favorite Looney Tunes character? Marvin the Martian. Me too. Hey. Oh, this is a good question. I'm thinking about Space Jam. Okay, pretend I'm pointing my Q32 space modulator at you to get a quick reaction.

26:29Ben Travis:I don't understand that. That's Marvin the Martian.

26:35Ben Travis:Droopy. Lola Bunny. Lola Bunny. Hold on, please. That's terrible. Chris does a very good droopy. Droopy is also excellent. but yeah I'm just I'm happy it's getting released and I hope that Batgirl honestly I was going to say hashtag justice for Batgirl yes Leslie Grace obviously has Batgirl also that film has a Natalie Holt score and Natalie Holt her lucky score was incredible fabulous yeah so yeah hope that sees the light of day as well did either of you dare watch Evil Dead Burn absolutely not no I am afraid you should be it's a one shot trailer which is literally just someone freaking out as Deadites attack people.

27:17Ben Travis:Nice. I was absolutely in. I love it. So I don't need to know anymore. Evil Dead Burn is out this summer. Happy days, scariness, Deadites, yes. James, I'm surprised at your restraint here because there's been some Elden Ring news and you have not said anything. There has been a lot of Elden Ring news. I wondered whether it was too early in the morning, even though it's not morning, for people to be bored to tears for me being tedious about Elden Ring. But sure, let's talk about it. We had all sorts of things. It's got its release date, which is, off the top of my head, is 2028, isn't it? I can't remember the exact date.

27:49Ben Travis:Oh, March the 3rd, 2028 is its release date. This is Alex Garland's adaptation of the FromSoft game that I have sunk more hours into than I'm prepared to admit on this particular show. But we also talked cast. So what? It was Kit Conner, Ben Whishaw, Kaylee Spaney, Tom Burke, Havana Rose Loo, Sonoya Mizuno, Jonathan Price, Ruby Cruz, Nick Offerman, John Hodgkinson, Jefferson Hall, Emma Laird, and Peter Serafinowicz. We don't know who anyone plays. We don't know what the story is, in large part, because the story of the game is utterly incomprehensible. I do not know what this film is. I do not know what it will be.

28:21Ben Travis:I am so excited about it, but I couldn't really tell you why. What is the game about? Is it a fantasy game? Is it a sci-fi game? It's dark fantasy. It is sort of set in a world where you are a tarnished who is essentially an undead, though ye yet live, which is useful because, you know, you die all the time in these games because they're very, very difficult. But it's, so when people say, what is the plot of Elden Ring? It's like, yeah, it doesn't really have one because the thing is, almost all of the plot plays out through item description. So when you pick up a sword or a piece of armor or a pumpkin off the floor, you read the description of it and it gives you a little bit of lore.

28:59Ben Travis:And the lore was contributed to by George R.R. Martin, who helped do the world building. But the actual story of the game involves a god called Marika and a godhood, which has been split a bunch among a load of sort of demigods. Like a horcrux thing? Kind of. the god has been split among her sort of children these sort of these half gods and you are the Tarnish you are trying to become the new Elden Lord by reuniting anyway it doesn't even matter I don't know what this film will be it could go back in time relatively speaking because that's where the law is most complete because again if you're reading item descriptions you're reading about the history so the history is rather more filled in than the present in the game so I wonder if they'll pick a period in sort of Elden Ring history and do that but honestly, only Alex Garland really knows at this point.

29:44Ben Travis:I imagine most of the people who've read the script probably still don't know if it's anything like the game. Or if it's anything like Annihilation. Or if it's anything like Annihilation, and you do get annihilated in the game quite a lot, which is fair. Amon, you're not a FromSoft fan, are you? You're not big into Souls-likes? No. No. No. I'm trying to get into it. Sekiro is Souls, right? Yes. Sekiro Shadows Die Twice, which is the Japanese samurai-inspired FromSoft game. Yes. I thought I was a skilled gamer. I still think I'm a skilled gamer, but that game is hard. I'm going to give you a tip for a second.

30:16Ben Travis:Right now, don't treat it like a Soul's Light. Treat it like a rhythm game. It's much more like a rhythm game than an action game because it's all about learning the rhythms of how to parry. Anyway, that's my tip for you. But I recently finished playing Bloodborne again. I played the whole thing through in the week that I was off last week. So I finished Bloodborne, which is a Lovecraftian kind of gothic, one of these sort of games. Bring back the droning on about Invincible. Yeah, let's just talk games, Amon. Let's just talk games. Anyway, Elden Ring, massive game. It is brilliant. Play it if you haven't already.

30:45Ben Travis:This film is fascinating to me. Some real good voices I noticed in that cast. So, you know, that's interesting and hopeful. And Havana Rosalie seems to be like in everything these days and she's always good. So I'm excited to see her as well. All right. There was also a teaser for Rogue Trooper, the new Duncan Jones. Yeah, very brief. Very, very brief. Excited for this, but I have, again, no clue what's happening. Yeah, Duncan Joe's animated film based on the 2000 AD character. I was a big 2000 AD fan back in the kind of late 80s. I can't say I was ever a massive rogue trooper fan. Okay. But the idea, he's kind of like a super soldier and the sort of souls, I mean, not really souls, they're little chips essentially with the personalities of some of his deceased colleagues are stored in his helmet, which is one of them.

31:31Ben Travis:I think his gun is another one. I want to say his backpack is like the third one. I can't remember. But so he has essentially, his platoon is with him in spirit, if not in body. Okay, interesting. All right. And he's blue. And he's blue. I'm sorry, there's so many Arrested Development jokes, but we're just going to leave those and move on. They have also announced that there's going to be an I Am Legend sequel. I am a little confused. Yes. Because last I'd heard, he wouldn't be around for that. And yet all of the, you know, stories and versions of this seem to just name drop Will Smith anyway.

32:06Yeah.

32:07Ben Travis:I think they're using the alternate ending. But that is now canon, as I understand it. So the alternate version, which is much, much better than the actual version, I don't know that I necessarily want to say what happens, because I feel like spoilers for I Am Legend. It came out in 2008, I think. Richard Matheson's book was a lot older than that. It's a short story, isn't it, really? But I've read that. It's good. It has a much better ending on the DVD than it does theatrically. Is it closer to the book? Yes. Oh, okay. So it's a far more entry, but it's also really fucking dark. so the whole thing's about sort of vampires the alternate ending kind of vampire apocalypse guys makes it clear that let's just say Will Smith who you think is the hero is very much not the hero of this film he is in many ways the villain and that's what the book does yeah and that's what no adaptation has really done in cinemas at least so that could be an interesting thing to play with the part is clear here just we release I Am Legend with new footage yes which is essential to enjoying the sequel and everyone will go and see it billion dollars done there you go That sounds like a great plan, guys.

33:07Yeah, look, I guess... The original had... The original, I mean, it's like the fourth version of it or whatever, but the Will Smith film was very cool looking. Yeah. It had some iconic moments, I feel like. It wasn't, especially with the ending, it wasn't an old-timer, but it did its job pretty well. So maybe this will be good, who knows?

33:31Ben Travis:I'm intrigued and potentially a little bit excited because Will Smith is a great performer and Michael B. Jordan is the other name that's been mentioned. I think that was the last incarnation, wasn't it? Is that this incarnation? I think that's this incarnation too. Okay. And then you've got Stephen Caple Jr., who did Creed II, which I really, really liked. Transformers, Rise of the Beast, which I liked a little bit less. But he is a solid director. It's in development right now. We'll see how far they get around the line. Hopefully it gets all the way to shooting. Can I give you a good Omega Man fact?

34:00Ben Travis:You may. We're talking the Chon Heston version of this story. you'll recall that his character dies Robert Neville dies in a fountain remember this? that fountain is the friend's fountain from the title sequence because it's the fountain on the Warner Brothers lot so yes Robert Neville dies in the friend's fountain that is good trivia well done yeah but should you go into the water because judging by one other trailer I just want to mention in passing because I don't think it'll detain us too long should you go into the water when there are hippos in the water hungry hungry hippos hungry hungry hippos This is the most ridiculous thing.

34:33There is a new horror movie called Hungry, and it is about being hunted by an evil hippo. And they point out hippos are vegetarian, so it's just hunting you for fun.

34:44Ben Travis:Yes, that's it. I mean, look, they do kill a lot of people every year. Yes, they do. Hippos are really deadly. 500 people annually in Africa are killed by hippos. Are killed by hippos. Like, they're more deadly than, like, lions and crocodiles. What? Hippos will fuck you up. They will. Lost that bit. And yet, I find it hard to swallow hungry a hippo story. I know. But also, when we're talking like hippos will fuck you up, we're not talking mudang. Mudang will not fuck you up. Not guilty. But a full-size, like 3 ,000-kilo hippo will fuck your shit up. Yeah, absolutely. So, I mean, good luck to everyone who goes in the water in Louisiana in that film.

35:24There was actually, there was a mad plan, I believe, in the 19th century to actually bring hippos to the Mississippi Delta. And it would have probably resulted in thousands more casualties a year. So anyway, some more trivia for you today. Anyway, I think that's the big news this week. At the time of recording, at least, we apologize for the 16 much bigger stories. That undoubtedly broke the second we finished doing the podcast.

35:52Ben Travis:Absolutely break after this. But let's move on. We're going to have an interview and we are delighted to be joined this week by David Lowery, one of the most eclectic filmmakers, I think, around. There are not many people who can go from Ain't Them Body Saints to a Pete's Dragon remake, and a very charming one at that, and then go straight back to a ghost story. But this week brings us Mother Mary, which is a sort of musically fashion-themed psychological horror, question mark, starring Anne Hathaway and Michaela Cole as a, respectively, a pop icon and her former fashion designer. So we sent Ben along, to find out if this is more Pete's Dragon or more The Green Knight.

36:32Ben Travis:I'm thrilled to be joined on the Empire podcast by the writer-director of Mother Mary, David Lowery. How are you doing, man? I'm doing great. Thank you for having me. You're here, IRL, in the studio, in the pod booth. Thank you for coming all the way in. Flew to London just for this, of course. I appreciate it. In true pop diva style, as is befitting of Mother Mary. So this is your new film with Anne Hathaway playing a massively renowned pop star known as Mother Mary in a personal existential spiritual crisis reuniting with Michaela Cole a former creative collaborator in the sort of fashion side of things and I want to know where did this start for you because your films are so varied in terms of like milieu time and place so did this start with like I would quite like to make a pop star movie?

37:25Ben Travis:I'm interested in the idea of a pop star or did you come up with the sort of psycho drama at the heart of it and think, oh, an interesting additional context to this would be the pop star element? I think the pop star element came first, but it was an element that had no movie attached to it. I just knew that I wanted to make something surrounding a pop star or pop music that involved pop music to some degree because I loved it and just wanted to participate in that mode of expression. And then once the idea for this movie occurred to me, it very quickly presented itself as the movie in which I could bring my fascination with pop music, my adoration for pop music, into the fold of this, as you put it, or as the marketing materials put it, this psychodrama, psychosexual pop opera, I think is what it's being marketed as.

38:21Ben Travis:and that is accurate in a very strange way. Yeah, I mean, hard to put a label on what this film is. How do you feel when you've made something? One of the things I love about the film is that it feels like it is just figuring out what it wants to be in the process of its own creation. How does it feel then for somebody to put a label on it to be like, I guess we're going to call it, yeah, sort of psychosexual thriller? It's interesting because I also know that it is a difficult movie to describe. I, when we were first, you know, getting it made, I would say that, well, this is a movie about a pop star who needs a dress.

38:57Ben Travis:And that is literally, that's exactly what the movie is, but it's not quite as a fun of a logline. So we had to come up with some slightly more, some spicier adjectives, which are all accurate to the movie. But I always am like, this is accurate, but not in the way people expect. When you hear psychosexual pop opera, I try not to call it a thriller, even though I find it thrilling. But I know some people, this is the polar opposite of a thriller to some people. But I do find it thrilling. So all of those words are very accurate to it. And yet none of them quite encompass what the movie truly is.

39:33Ben Travis:And that's exciting. I like having a film that is impossible to put in any specific box. I love when Everything Everywhere All at Once was coming out. and the Daniels described it as a film about a woman trying to do her taxes. Yes, exactly. Which again, it is. Literally that. We're going to come back to some of the pop star-ness of it all. But you said that you'd had this kind of fascination with pop stars anyway. What's your history with pop music? Did you always grow up a pop fan? I was... My history of music is really interesting because I wasn't really allowed to listen to modern music when I was a child.

40:09Ben Travis:Right. We could listen to classical music. My parents let me listen to the oldies stations, like 50s rock and roll. But it wasn't until high school or maybe junior high when I was around 12, 13, that I realized there were other stations on the dial and that I could discover other types of music. And very quickly, I gravitated towards rock and roll. I mean, you are currently wearing a Smashing Pumpkins t-shirt. I am. I very quickly realized that was my music. Smashing Pumpkins was the very first concert I ever went to. No way. Wow, that's a crazy coincidence. For Melancholy and the Infinite Sadness.

40:44Ben Travis:What, an album. Incredible. And I saw them a few more times after that. Then Nine Inch Nails, another huge one for me. Going backwards a little bit, David Bowie was a huge inspiration for me. So that was more the lane that I was in. And when I started to become aware of pop music per se, around the time that Britney Spears came out of the scene or Christina Aguilera came out of the scene, it wasn't my type of music. and it took me a little while to realize, oh wait, I think I might actually like this. When I was making Ain't Them Bodies Saints in 2012 and 2013, I was very steeped in folk music.

41:20Ben Travis:That was sort of the lane I was in at that point. But I remember while we were in post for that movie, discovering Kesha. Right, yeah. And I just couldn't stop listening to Kesha while I was making that film, which with that movie, it's weird to think about me, in particular with that movie, listening to Kesha while making it, but I was. and then that sort of set me off on this path of like really realizing that this was a type of music that I loved and that I found so much meaning in and so much a lot of times it's just fun I love listening to a song that makes me want to dance but I also love the way in which those songs could tap into an emotion that other types of music could not and it's become now that I've made this movie I feel like I could write a dissertation on my feelings about pop music, but also pop music is so inclusive of all things.

42:11Ben Travis:The thing when we were in the studio working on the music for this film, I remember Jack Antonoff pointing out that the difference between Pretty Hate Machine and Taylor Swift's reputation wasn't that, there wasn't that much distance between the two. And going back and listening to something like Pretty Hate Machine with that in mind, you hear how poppy that record really is. yeah I'm gonna come back to the the Jack and Charlie XCX of it all I'm a huge fan of both of them so I'm really excited to hear about their involvement but just to get back to like the description of the film I think emotionally there's a phrase that comes up early on which is the transmutation of feelings and they're talking about the act of creation of a dress but also that could apply to a pop song it could apply to a film this film to me felt like an an exorcism of something, a purging of something.

43:06Ben Travis:It is a very intense dialogue between Mother Mary and Sam, the dressmaker. And does that ring true with you? Was this an exorcism of something for you? And if so, what? It probably was, but part of the process of making was exercising this movie in and of itself for me. And so I'm still sort of processing that. where this movie came from was certainly I was in a I don't want to say a transitional period in my life but I was sort of on the precipice of I was getting older and thinking about life from a different vantage point and I felt that I needed to work through some stuff and making this movie was a way to do that I also, you know, it began that way but then it took on a life of its own so now that I'm on the outside of it and it was such a you know, distended process making this film.

44:00Ben Travis:I wrote it thinking I'd make it very quickly, and now here we are three years later, and it's only just now being finished. And so I don't, I haven't quite wrapped my head around all the ways in which it's changed me. It certainly has. And I don't know quite what I've exercised for myself, but I know that that has happened as well. So let's check back after my next movie when I have some perspective, and then I'll be able to say, okay, here's what this movie set me up for. I mean, it's a very intense film. Anne Hathaway and Michaela Cole, just absolutely incredible in this. The whole film pretty much is them.

44:39Ben Travis:The intensity of what they do across the course of the film, how did you release that tension? Because again, I think the film is partly about pop music as a release, as some sort of exorcism of something. Did you use that at all in the process of making this? Did you have to sit with the feelings or did you have to at the end of a really intense day be like, we need to do something just to get all of this out? I think we all had our different ways of releasing it, but more accurately, I think we did sit in it for a really long time. There was only so many hours in between rapping and calling the next day.

45:17Ben Travis:And if it was a weekend, I know Michaela would go out dancing and I would go running and Anne would spend time with her family. but for the most part we were in it we were just in that space we were in that headspace and it was really intense it was you know a movie that i wrote thinking you know how this is two actors two incredible actors were in one location all of the usual business of making a movie like company moves or or visual effects all of that is going to be secondary to getting to spend time working through a text with two incredible thespians. And I neglected to realize that that text was incredibly intense and psychologically was going to really do a number on us.

46:02Ben Travis:And we really were just in that space, in that headspace, but also that physical space for, you know, about 30 or 40 days. And it definitely did a number on us. Yeah. Well, let's talk about the pop music of it all. Let's get back to the Jack and the Charlie of everything. it was an amazing thing to see those guys working together because if you followed them for a long time you know they go way back but how did that collaboration come together who do you contact first is it you're speaking to Jack or are you speaking to Charlie how does that all coalesce I had meetings with both of them independently and was a huge fan of both of theirs and I knew I needed the best of the best to pull off what we were trying to pull off and we didn't meet thinking it would be a collaboration but then I just really liked both of them I really wanted to work with both of them so the idea of all of us collaborating was very quickly presented and I think that began right around the time that I was casting the movie I think I met with Jack prior to either of the actors being on board I met with Charlie probably right around the same time that I met Anne and I know that Charlie was already sending demos to me before the cast was fully locked in.

47:22Ben Travis:Right. I think this was all like October of 2022. So again, four years ago now. But it was initially, I wanted them to help me find the voice of this pop star. But then when Anne came aboard, we realized, okay, she is literally going to be the voice of this pop star and she is going to be a huge part of the process. So even though she would, I think, safe to say not call herself a songwriter, she became the de facto third songwriter in the room on these songs because her character had to be the songwriter. And we had to find a way to make these songs feel incredibly personal to her, as if she had been the artist who wrote them.

48:03Ben Travis:And we did, again, started in 2022. We finished the last song eight weeks ago. Wow. So it was a process of just really, and I give all the credit to Anne for really pushing it across the finish line because she just kept, she would record the songs, we'd be happy with them, and then she would say, I think I can dig deeper. I can get more out of these. And so she went back to the studio over and over and over again. And every single time, the songs would get better in a way that I was ill-equipped to quantify. I could not tell you why they got better, but I would listen to it and be like, oh, this is a night and day difference from what we had six weeks ago.

48:45Ben Travis:And that process kept evolving. And, you know, when we filmed the concert scenes in the movie, I'd say the songs were at like 90 % of the way there. And where they are now in the finished film is like 220 % of the way there. And that's entirely due to Anne Hathaway. Also, I mean, it's a tall order anyway. what do you write in the script for these? Because at least one of the songs in particular, I'm thinking particularly Holy Spirit 2, kind of has to be like the best song you've ever heard. Which is, I think, with the script. It's crazy pressure. That's what the screenplay said, the best song that's ever been written.

49:20Ben Travis:That one in particular had a dual function, which it had to be this anthemic pop power ballad while also having a chorus structure that allowed for the set piece to work. Like she has to walk down this runway and then ascend into the air. And the song had to work with that in mind. And with that song in particular, Anne and I wound up writing a lot of the lyrics. It started off with us just sharing text message lyric sheets back and forth. We were just writing all of the lyrics we could imagine this character singing. And then Anne started to send voice memos of how she imagined singing it. And then we went to Jack and we're like, help us make this mess of lyrics and voice text notes into a song.

50:10Ben Travis:And he crafted something really beautiful out of that. But what's incredible is when you see Jack Antonoff's behind-the-scenes process, we're going to talk about reputation now, and you can't talk about reputation without thinking about Getaway Car and that incredible scene from the Miss Americana documentary. It's one of the most exhilarating portrayals of the creative process of all time. They're pulling that bridge out of thin air. they both have a thread of something and in the same moment they come up with what that melody is going to be. I think about that all the time. Not just in relation to this movie but just what creativity feels like.

50:40Ben Travis:When you tap into that vein and are able to all of a sudden access all of these ideas that are the collective unconscious is working because in that case you see two people coming up with the same idea at the same time and it really does, it's such a rush. And I love that depiction of it in that film. Because you spoke to Alex for the magazine piece saying that a big part of the basis of how you attacked the concert scenes was looking at specifically the Reputation tour, the Era's tour, the Reputation tour, big drama in that one in particular. What were the three songs from Reputation that you kind of zoned in on?

51:15Ben Travis:Because you said there were sort of three numbers that you sort of were using to help you craft what those sequences could be visually. Well, are you ready for it is how the show begins. And that just the way in which she makes her presence known on stage is it's so iconic and that's like the entrance to any concert is always important but in that one in particular it's the scale of it just was so awe-inspiring i you know we started work on this movie before the iris tour i think the tour had just kicked off when we had started shooting and then when we wrapped i went to go see in LA and it is incredible as well that is a real once in a lifetime tour event but the Reputation Tour had something different it had because the Ears Tour was encompassing all of those Ears it just touched on everything but there was a focus to Reputation and an aesthetic style to it that was very it spoke my language and again the scale of it was something I had never seen before I just didn't understand, I couldn't wrap my head around how she and her team put that together.

52:30And it truly

52:32Ben Travis:felt monumental. So when we were figuring out what Mother Mary's concert presence would be, I just kept going back to that one because of that sense of scale. And we couldn't pull that off. We were ill-equipped to do something at that scale, but that was what we were reaching for. And then just the sense of presence that she has, the way she makes an entrance in that first number and comes out on stage. The amount of time she gives before she starts singing so the audience has time to take her in. That was the other thing about that documentary that I really found incredible was the way that they shot it and the way in which they show how she engages with the audience.

53:10Ben Travis:And sometimes that's with the audience that's in the very front row who she can actually commune with and reach out and touch. But also the way in which she knows how to project herself out to the people who are in the furthest nosebleed seats and give them an intimate experience at the same time. And that is an art form that I can't wrap my head around. I don't know how she does it. I don't know how any pop star does it. I'm in awe of all of them. But in particular, the way in which she's able to commune with this galaxy of people who she can't see their faces. She doesn't know who they are. She just knows that they're out there.

53:50Ben Travis:They're little dots of light that look like stars in a galaxy. And she's able to have an intimate experience with every single one of them. Or at least give the feeling that she's having an intimate experience with every single one of them. That's an art form unto itself on top of the singing, on top of the dancing. I could go on an absolute Taylor Swift deep dive with you. I would love to do that. That would be incredible. But before I let you go, our time's nearly up. You mentioned stars in the galaxy there, and I can't let you go without talking a little bit of Star Wars, because we last spoke for Skeleton Crew.

54:20Ben Travis:You directed on Skeleton Crew, at which point you mentioned that for Mother Mary, you were asking for Death Star floors for this movie. I loved looking out for the Death Star floors. Did you see them? Yes, particularly in the bath sequence, I will say. Very shiny Death Star floors. At that point, you were talking about your collection of Star Wars figures. Yes. you're an avid collector and you were looking for a vintage Kenna Amanaman from Return of the Jedi have you had success in that pursuit? You got one? I have one yeah and I got it I usually get my this is going to get so dorky when I'm buying vintage action figures I get them loose I don't want them, I have some carded ones but I usually get them loose because then you can pose them but with Amanaman Amanaman, Amanaman however you say it he is the only graded figure I have because I couldn't find one that was loose.

55:17Ben Travis:So it came to you graded and boxed? In the polystyrene case and the I still want a loose one so I can have but right now he's got the, he as the only figure in that case he's got a centerpiece in my collection. Amazing. What's your Star Wars figure Holy Grail? What's next on your list? I mean it's sort of a cliche to say this but one of those rocket-firing Boba Fetts, which I cannot ever afford. One of them recently sold for a record-breaking number, I believe. It was in the news the other day that, yes, somebody found the prototype Boba Fett with the real rocket that fires. And the toy store that I buy most of my toys in Dallas, Texas, has the prototype there.

56:01Ben Travis:Oh, wow. Have you asked to hold it before? I have not. I should. I should just go get my photo taken with it and then frame that. Did you see that in The Mandalorian and Grogu, there will be an Amani, an Aman man guy? Yes, I saw that and was both thrilled, but also slightly disappointed that if I ever were to make my own Star Wars project, which who knows, maybe I will get to do that, I wanted that character to be the villain. and now Jon Favreau has wisely realized that that character is an unexploited asset in the Lucasfilm library and I can't wait to see him get his due on the big screen coming out of the shadows of Jabba's palace and doing whatever he's going to do in Mandalorian Grogu.

56:44Ben Travis:That's probably the reason, I mean I'm excited for that movie but I'm particularly excited to see that character rendered with all of the modern technology that Jon Favreau has at his disposal. And that maybe it floods the market with opened, uncarded, Amanaman figures. What are your May the 4th plans? And do you know when you're seeing Mando and Grogu? Are you using that Lucasfilm hookup to get an early peak? I will be on a plane on May 4th, hopefully en route to making another movie, which means that I will have to watch Mandalorian and Grogu in a theater probably in another language. Wow. A theater in a foreign country where I will not be speaking the language.

57:26Ben Travis:and I've done this before. Mother Mary, we filmed in Germany and I remember going to see lots. You can find English dubs or the original version, but most of the time we would go see movies in German. And so I got to see Furiosa in German, which actually that was great because there wasn't that much dialogue and I'd already seen it three times, but we saw Mission Impossible in German. It was always fun. It was a novel way to experience a blockbuster film. And can you say yet what the next project is? I will my lips remain sealed okay but once you've made it you have to come back and we'll talk about the Mother Mary exorcism we'll get to the heart of it yes and and and ideally knock on wood this one will not take three years to finish well whatever it is can't wait to see it and congratulations on Mother Mary is an incredible experience and thank you so much for coming into the Empire Podcast Podbooth oh my pleasure thank you so much thank you okay that was Ben talking to David Lowery Thank you to both of them.

58:25And let's move on to reviews. Should we start with Mother Mary?

58:29Ben Travis:Why don't we, Helen? Tell us about Mother Mary based, of course, on the Iris tour by Taylor Swift. Yeah, so this is Anne Hathaway who plays Mother Mary, who is a sort of, I would say, more Gaga-esque pop star. She doesn't have Taylor Swift energy to me, if I'm honest. But she is kind of struggling. She's coming back to her touring schedule after some time away. she wants to make an impact and she is just not feeling it with the outfits that she'd been you know been lined up with for her big comeback concert so she goes to her old-fashioned designer Sam who's played by Michaela Cole who had they had a real sort of hand-in-glove relationship back in the day where they really worked together to essentially create the persona of Mother Mary and then she decided she needed to go in a new direction sort of classic story she moved away from Sam's work, kind of left her to fend for herself and kind of re-establish herself, I guess, in the wake of that.

59:26And now she's basically turned up, you know, drenched, exhausted, clearly at an incredibly low ebb on Sam's doorstep, essentially asking slash demanding for a dress to be done in like two days for this concert. And initially, you think this is going to be a sort of psychological thriller where it's a sort of power struggle almost between the two. Like Sam obviously has a lot of resentment, a lot of bitterness for the way that things went between them. She's angry. She's really furious. But at the same time, you can sense the closeness and the love that lay underneath that they used to have. And there's a sort of, are they going to get that back?

1:00:07Or is this going to go? I mean, you're literally like, are they going to stab each other to death? Like, I don't know which way this is going to go. It seems like it could go either way and it is like great performances i think from both of sort of getting into that kind of stuff and then at a certain point this film becomes something weirder and i i have some theories about what that weirdness is meant to say and convey but i don't feel like it um is entirely meant to make sense if I'm honest and I didn't feel as excited by that or as wrapped up in that as I had been by the previous sort of psychological games between them so start great and for me finished interestingly but didn't have that middle section of like oh excitement that I was looking

1:01:02Ben Travis:for i largely agree with what you're saying i thought the first 40 minutes of this film really had me it's really that that duo that dynamic it felt very magnetic as you mentioned performances are great it's very very talky but i was fully absorbed in the mess then when all the weird stuff happens it becomes it just lost me it become a bit became a bit of a slog i think i would say all the way through the visuals are amazing very very glossy um when the red piece of cloth comes into it that feels very striking um so there are definitely things to like but after that first 40 minutes it became really difficult for me it did not feel as engaging and as absorbing as the first 40 minutes did this has had reviews across the entire spectrum of possible star ratings i mean I mean, it's not quite, right.

1:01:58My touchstone for reviews across the spectrum is Speed Racer, which I personally think is somewhere between a one and a five, and I still don't know where. I really can't rule out any of the scores between those points. And I kind of get this because it is really up and down, and there are moments of real greatness, and there are moments that I felt quite cynical about. We should mention that there's quite cool music in this because the songs are written by Charlie XCX, Jack Antonov, and FKA Twigs.

1:02:28Ben Travis:Who's also in the film. Who's also in the film. The latter is also in the film for a small role. And I think that gives it a little bit of verisimilitude and a little bit of a sense of, okay, I can kind of see that she could be a... Her music is not at all like a Gaga, actually, or a Taylor Swift. It's much more like a Charlie XCX. Yes. Like, much more. But yeah, it really is. But yeah, I thought that kind of was interesting and it worked. and like you say, the visuals are very cool. There's some really nice subtle things as well. Like the structure of the stage that Mother Mary performs on is the same as the structure of the barn that Sam works in.

1:03:06So there's little like subtle echoes across, you know, across the different locations that I really liked.

1:03:11Ben Travis:The way they kind of stitch her going on to stage and her going off the stage at times was also... It was very cool. Yeah, you're right. But yeah, it's a really idiosyncratic film and I feel like maybe I just wanted it to be something other than what it is. So that was Mother Mary and we gave that four stars. So big recommendation there. I do think John loved it a little bit more than certainly you did, Amon. So yeah. Do we want to go to Apex next? So the best to last is what I'm saying. Sure, let's talk about Apex, which is Balthazar Cormica's new film. It is part of the Mad Australian horror thriller subgenre.

1:03:53Ben Travis:See also the likes of Dangerous Animals. Or Wolf Creek. Or Wolf Creek, indeed. And this stars Taron Egerton as the Mad Australian of choice. Although there is a line in this about how he was actually born in England, which I assume was some kind of apology for his accent, but they didn't need it because his accent is actually really good at this. So you could have happily said, absolutely, no, he's from Brisbane. It's fine. But this is a kind of cat and mouse game whereby Charlize Theron plays Sasha and she is an adrenaline junkie. We meet her halfway up the face of a mountain where she and boyfriend Eric Banner are braving the elements to climb a sheer rock face.

1:04:26Ben Travis:It made me buttock-clenchingly tense. They're literally in a tent on the side of a mountain. It's a lot. There's an extended kind of cliffhanger-esque sequence which, wouldn't you know, will become important later on. But we flash forward to her in the Australian wilderness where she is going on a whitewater rafting trip. But of course, being the maverick adrenaline junkie that she is, she takes no one with her. as she heads out into the wilderness, meets some creepy Australians on the way there. Yeah, real creepy. Yes, and wouldn't you know it, one of them turns out to be especially creepy because Taryn Egerton's Ben catches up with her while she is out camping alone and decides that he very much enjoyed John Woo's film, Hard Target, and thinks the greatest prey of all is, of course, humans.

1:05:07Ben Travis:No. And he gives her, I think, the length of a song to run away. This is all in the trailer, before he will start hunting her. And there we have the kind of wilderness set game of cat and mouse between the two of them. What I like about this, among other things, is it is quite clear that they did a lot more of the physical stuff than you might have expected them to. Yeah. And because you can clearly see it's them doing this shit. How they didn't, frankly, do themselves a mischief, as my nan would have said, I do not know. But there is some mad stuff that goes on here. Charlize Theron has been into, like, doing her own stunts for many years.

1:05:40I remember when she made the Italian job, and apparently she scored the highest on stunt driving. Really? She does not mess about. If she's in your film, she's going to do as much as she can.

1:05:49Ben Travis:Well, she would fuck you up in Aeon Flux. That's for sure. Remember that long sequence, obviously it's stitched together like a one, but in an atomic blonde. Yeah. As if for a long sequence, when she's flying down the stairs, it doesn't surprise me that she wants to do all her own stuff. I mean, after doing atomic blonde, she can do pretty much anything. But she's really good in this. He's obviously chasing her. Now, this could have been, and I thought it would be, no disrespect to Netflix, but I expected this to be a quite, because look, we've seen this many times before. Oh, we're going to hunt a human.

1:06:16Ben Travis:Good for you. It's been done a lot. Bad for you. Just to be clear, James. Bad for you. And I just thought, it's fine. I thought I knew where this was going to go. I was pleasantly surprised by the left turns. You do not necessarily see where this is going. And I think actually it has some fresh ideas in here. It has a lot of fun with its... I mean, look, Taron Egerton's character is the maddest of mad Australians in this. He is really, really creepy. But it's quite good. And she's an interesting character as well because she is not, as is often this, she's no kind of victim character. She is a hardcore adrenaline junkie.

1:06:49Ben Travis:She can climb a cliff face. She can go down white. She can get away. I got the impression she was like a professional climber. Yeah, this is like what she does. And so she, in many ways, is very well suited to this particular game of cat and mouse. There are a couple of moments where it seems like no matter how far or fast she goes, he's always just ahead of her, which, according to Chex Notes, physics makes no sense. But I kind of went with it. because it's a bit fun. And when it gets properly creepy, it actually gets a lot creepier than you think it is, which is fun as well. So given that the setup for this is actually quite trite, I actually think this is a pretty good film.

1:07:26Ben Travis:Like, I had a lot of fun with it. I really like both of their performances. I think they're both incredible and wildly overqualified for this kind of film. Of course. So that was good. I did feel a little bit like I was forgetting it even as I watched it, just because I've seen this story so many times before. but it is undeniably well done while you're watching it like I can't pick anything wrong with it while I was watching it it just it's just the story itself it is forgettable it feels like you know to go back in time it feels like one of those kind of 90s DVD thrillers a little bit with a bigger budget and some bigger stars in fact I believe there was an Apex a film called Apex came out around that time in fact there was a Bruce Willis film called Apex that came out about five years ago and F1 was originally called Apex.

1:08:14Ben Travis:So, you know, pick your Apex, really. There's so many Apexes. So many of them. I do also want to do an Amon and shout out the score for this because I thought it was wildly overachieving. Now, I'm going to... I apologise to presumably Scandinavian listeners because I think I'm about to mangle this. Yes, he's Icelandic, but Hogni Eggelsson did the score and I thought it was real good. Like, to the point where I was actively sort of stopping and listening to the music going, you buried the lead here James sorry I'm so sorry I've let you all down I can't stress enough how much that is not the lead also it's nice to see Eric Banner back on the big screen even if he is even if he is briefly briefly yeah but yeah we gave this four stars yeah which is another big recommendation yeah it is do you know what I'm probably somewhere between a three and a four but I had a lot of fun with it but this is one of these things where because it's on Netflix it's a really easy recommendation like you know am I going to say go out and spend 15 quid to see it at the cinema Actually, for this, I probably would do.

1:09:12Ben Travis:But should you watch it on Netflix on Friday night? Fuck yes. Absolutely. Absolutely. All right. Well, let's see if we can keep this incredible four-star streak going. I'm sure we will. Because now it's time to talk about Michael. Who's bad? Wow. See, Amon, never go full Jackson. You should... Don't try it. Don't try it.

1:09:39Ben Travis:yes michael which is about the early life and times of the king of pop himself michael jackson uh we start off with him as a kid played by giuliano cruvaldi uh he is button heads with his abusive father played by colman domingo then we skip ahead a few years and a few years again and he eventually is played by jafar jackson who was still button heads with his abusive father still played by colman domingo let's start with what i liked about this film um the music in the music biopic is probably the hardest thing to get wrong this film does not get that wrong i think if you're an mj fan uh you're going to get a lot of enjoyment out of hearing some of the uh iconic songs being played and being performed in this film they get that right as for the performer jafar jackson he is innocent he is great um and it's times it is frighteningly uncanny when you see him in michael mode doing his thing like i've watched a lot of the mj performances um and many of them are sort of many of them are emblazoned in my mind and watching jafar jackson doing his thing it's like wow that that's that's michael the incarnate To be clear, he is Michael's nephew.

1:10:55He's Jermaine Jackson's son.

1:10:56Ben Travis:Yes. So on that level, Full Mars. And for many people, for many MJ fans, that will likely be enough for them. But if we're thinking about this film on a critical level, it's got some issues. One, it's very shallow. In the question section, we were talking about biopics and the whistle-stop tour suits to nuts that they try to do a lot of the time. It doesn't always work. This is another example of that. It skips ahead multiple times, big chunks of years, to the point where we are skipping ahead and skimming through big moments in Jackson's life and history. That felt very weird to me. It also becomes repetitive.

1:11:48Ben Travis:The spine of the film is Michael versus Joe. and Joe is like he's trying to make sure his kids are a success and he sees that Michael is very very talented he's like I want to get Michael to perform I want to that's a note that gets hit over and over and over again and Colman Domingo who's a fantastic actor that I love even for him it is hard to locate the nuance in Joe Jackson at a point at the point it just becomes a caricature there's a big big moment that's very well known that the film depicts and even then he's like when can mj perform and it's just like that there's no nuance to the character and it hurts the performance and colmo domingo is a fantastic performer this is one of his weaker turns for me um another thing we were saying in when we're talking about biopics in the question section is the better biopics are the ones where we get into the weeds of the human the good stuff and the bad stuff.

1:12:50Wherever you land on Michael as a person,

1:12:54Ben Travis:he has qualities to him that many people know about that a biopic should get into. Maybe at a certain point, that is what was going to happen. We know that there were reshoots in the third act of this film. What we get is a Michael who is basically flawless and who is a victim. Not saying that the victim stuff was not true, but to have a film where he is basically full of stuff, the entire movie, it feels very safe and it feels very sanitized. That's not what a substantive, honest biopic should be. But that is what we get. Again, for some, the music video whistle-stop nature of this film will be enough.

1:13:36Ben Travis:But on a critical level, I don't think it works. We should say, from the reports of this, that they had intended to deal with this. In fact, by all accounts, it started with his arrest. originally. And then there is a legal reason why one of the accusers, and obviously there are multiple accusations of child abuse in Michael Jackson's history, but one of them in particular, the one that they had chosen to portray, they realized legally they could not feature that person in a film. So, at great expense, they reshot the last 20 minutes of the film and all of that, and rather than tackle it in any way, they've done it in a very odd way where they've excised any of it, but then very pointedly ended the chronology of the film with the release of Bad before any of that really comes to light and then end on a title card which implies the story is going to continue in another film.

1:14:24Ben Travis:Whether it will or not, I suspect, depends very heavily on the box office. But even if it does, we're looking at a very dark sequel which will have to deal with a lot of stuff, especially since, you know, producer Graham King, I think, has said they reckon they can recycle like a percentage of the footage that they have excised. But then a lot of that is around this particular issue. So I think that's, it is part of a problem because Michael Jackson, you know, one of the biggest pop stars who ever lived, defined the 20th century in terms of music. And let's be honest, these are fucking wall-to-wall bangers.

1:14:55Ben Travis:The music is incredible. And it's watching these on stage, the performances, it's amazing. It's uplifting. It's all of these things. However, all the way through, in the back of your lizard brain, something is going, this feels so wrong. To portray him in this hagiographic way, to not reference any of this, but to put him alongside again nothing he was not convicted of any crime that's absolutely true there have been accusations I'm not going to speak to whether or not they are real or not there have been multiple documentaries that handle this far better but it felt incredibly tone deaf to push that forward without any comment and just put them in this film and I struggled to get past that in this film it made me feel very uncomfortable but even if I think even if you can get past that and I love Antoine Fuqua as a filmmaker this is a Who should say directed this film.

1:15:44Who should say directed this film.

1:15:45Ben Travis:It's really fucking boring. And, you know, that is harsh because the storytelling, as you said, is leaden. The characterization is largely absent. I don't think we learn a great deal about Michael we didn't already know. His father was abusive. We get it. That is absolutely hammered on the head until you're sick of it. We learn nothing about his siblings who have like one line each. Janet Jackson is conspicuous by her absence, presumably, for legal reasons. And I came out of this thinking, it's weird that the people who seem to get the lion's share of screen time are people like John Branca, who weirdly is a producer.

1:16:16Ben Travis:And I just thought, I don't feel like I've learned anything about this person's life that I didn't already know. And most of the stuff I'm thinking about is the stuff they specifically do not show. So I don't think, even if you take out the omissions and the accusations, anything like that, I don't think this works as a biopic on a storytelling level. It's boring, it's leaden, it's poorly structured, it has no narrative propulsion. All it has in it is good songs. Did Dewey Cox die for nothing? I swear to God if I see another biopic that starts with somebody walking to the stage shot from behind before then flashing back through their entire life I will start burning cinemas yeah this is not this is not a good film this is bad in the sense of terrible not bad in the sense of good it is dramatically inert I think it would have been even if it had that wildly ill-judged last act that they were planning to do if the reports are true I think it is particularly true now that they don't have a last act at all and just finish with a montage.

1:17:16I feel like it flattens Michael Jackson to such a degree that, quite frankly, his father would be proud because this is all he wanted him to be, is a performing performer and do nothing else and have no other interests, really, outside of the work. And that is all that this film shows us and all that it has to say. I feel like if you're a Michael Jackson fan, this does you a disservice because it doesn't get under the skin of what made him the star that he was. And if you are, like most of us, disturbed by all the allegations against him over all those years, this will, like James says, this is elephant in the room, the movie.

1:17:51Ben Travis:Elephant, llama, giraffe, chimpanzee, all of them. All you can do is think about what they're not showing you and what they are conspicuously trying to brush under the rug. I think it is a cynical, cynical film. I think that the best biopics are the ones that show you warts and all. And according to this, he never had a wart in his entire life. It is repetitive. It is boring. You know, look, no disrespect to the young performers. I think Jafar Jackson and in particular Giuliano Valdi do great, great jobs in the role with the script that they are given, which has a grand total of one good line.

1:18:31They do their best. It's not their fault. and the dancing and I think lip syncing rather than singing is great on both their parts. But everything else is just bad. Again, not meaning good.

1:18:45Ben Travis:Yeah. I will... This is grotesque. It is genuinely grotesque. I'll add two more things. One is that sometimes the editing of a cause Bohemian Lapsody and not in a good way. It's so over-edited. and that when you have a performer the likes of Jafar Jackson is given this way to performance just let him do his thing without too many cuts two there was a film sorry film it was a TV series almost that was put together like a film it was called The Jacksons An American Dream it was released years ago it actually stars Angela Bassett as MJ's mum a role by the way which we haven't mentioned here is Nia Long's yes she gets a couple of good moments but I wish she was Largely underused.

1:19:31Ben Travis:Yes. And also stars Terrence Howard as one of the Jackson brothers. I would say that that's a much better depiction of MJ, the Jackson 5. That film does have Diana Ross. I think Diana Ross was cast in this film, but Kat Graham was meant to play her, and they excised her from the film. She had a large role to play with the Jackson 5 early on. and yeah if you want a more detailed more precise and considered telling of the MJ Jackson 5 story I'd seek that out it's actually on YouTube okay this depressingly though this will almost certainly make a shit ton of money oh yeah we're getting we're getting that story continuing yeah I mean do you know what I genuinely hope we do because this as I say it very cynically ends before A the accusations but also before a lot of the shall we say weird stuff happens yeah he hasn't even moved to Netherlands right so a lot of the kind of slightly batty stuff, which honestly would be very interesting, because you, and not from a gawping point of view, but you want to understand the psyche, you want to understand what's going on, because we get the kind of, Michael is the victim of trauma in this, we get that, but there is a larger, arguably more interesting story to be told in his further years, so I would like to see his story continue, and I would like them to address all of it.

1:20:46Ben Travis:The question also will be, if this does really well, will there be an appetite to do an incredibly dark, very differently toned second part of this, or are they going to try and paper over that as well? Who knows? Well, I think this gives us some idea. One thing they'll always have, even if we do get that second film and they do address some of that stuff, it will be darker, yes, but one thing they will always have is the music. Yeah. And that will bring people, especially MJ fans back. Yeah, that is true. And they are passionate, let's say. Yeah. Some of the stuff I've seen online, look at this, like, give Jafar Jackson the best actor.

1:21:20Ben Travis:Sorry, calm down. Calm down. I've heard that for Colm and the Mingles. I was like, calm down. Michael then, so bad it's dangerous. Yeah, we gave it to, I'll be honest, I think that's generous. Wow. I really have rarely been angrier this year than at this film. This isn't it. This ain't it. No. No, it is nicked good. Nicked good. I should mention as well, just before we finish the reviews section, that Rose of Nevada is out this week. That is the new film from Mark Jenkins, the Cornish filmmaker who works in a very analog manner. You may remember Anishman and Bates from a few years ago. So this one, it's a slightly, I guess, bigger proposition in that he has George Mackay and Callum Turner starring as two fishermen.

1:22:09And this is the Rose of Nevada. it refers to a fishing trawler which appears in the harbor of a present-day Cornish village after going missing 30 years before. So it's sort of, you know, the local economy kind of crashed after it disappeared. It was taken as an omen, and its return may also be some kind of omen. So it's once again getting into sort of slightly supernatural question mark stuff. Someone called Sam and Dean. Indeed. No, not that kind of supernatural. I don't think like bad, not bad supernatural potentially. good even. Who knows? I don't know. I actually haven't seen it yet, so I can't review it.

1:22:46But we have, and we gave it four stars. So we hope to review that ourselves next week. Hooray! And we'll be talking about it properly then. But if you are a Mark Jenkins fan, and why would you not be? That is out in cinemas this week, and it did get four stars. So it's really an across the board, four stars this week, apart from the absolutely reprehensible abomination in the middle of the list.

1:23:10Ben Travis:I do love a good Helena Harlan. This is so fun. I'm very, very balanced. Anyway, that is it, I think, for this week's podcast. Do join us next week for more film-related fun when we will be joined by George Mackay and Callum Turner to talk about Rose of Nevada. More importantly, however, we will be joined by our beloved leader who is flying home even as we speak. And I, for one, welcome our returning Liverpool fan overlord. So, yes, until then, until that auspicious occasion, until we meet again. It's goodbye from James. Goodbye. Please do listen to the Pilot TV podcast. We've got Richard Gad on talking about his new show Half Man with Jamie Bell which is a tough watch.

1:23:51Ben Travis:And we're talking about that at length on the podcast which is very, very exciting. There's a burger place in Hastings called Half Man Half Burger. Is it about burgers? It is literally about burgers. Yeah. And that burger place is freaking amazing. It's really good, isn't it? Literally, I've contemplated going back to Hastings just for that. Yeah. I don't want to eat a burger that's half man. Well, I think that's just the name. I think it's what you are after you eat it. You're half man, half burger. I mean, that's fair. It's real big. Anyway, it's goodbye from Amon. Peace. Have a good one, everybody.

1:24:21See ya.