Episode 700: Live At Kings Place, London (ft. guests Corin Hardy & Dafne Keen; Bart Layton; Ben Wheatley; Alfie Williams, Erin Kellyman, & Chi Lewis-Parry; Anthony Russo & Joe Russo)

27:45I was not wowed by the trailer. I was not wowed by the trailer. Good trailer. It's an okay trailer. But I think it's something where once you're in that cinema, I need to see this in the cinema with a good sound system, sat in the middle, in the dark, ready to hopefully shit myself. Do you announce this to the people when you're buying two tickets for Avatar, please? Hope I shit myself. It's three and a quarter hours. There's a lot of... You can get up and leave. James Cameron said I would shit myself with my mouth wide open. He did. He did. God damn it, I'm going to prove it right. I believe that's the plot of the human centipede, but I'm just, I'm just, I'm just.

28:23Hey, come on. What? Hey. Yeah? Let's not talk about that. Okay. Very, very quickly, because we have to talk about reviews now. Ben, as a Disney man, Tangled, there's a live action Tangled. Disney will not stop until our demands are met. They are making live action animation adaptations all over the fucking shop. And Tangled has its cast. Haven't given you enough time to Google them. I Googled them just before it came on stage. Yes. Good work. That's bad. Yes, you applaud Ben's professionalism. And importantly, I Googled them and didn't chat GPT them. Yeah, quite right. Thumbs down. Thumbs down.

29:08Oh. Chat GPT. um yeah we have some casting we have our uh rapunzel and our flynn rider i have never heard of either of them so so i've been i've been like looking around at pictures of him basically because i have very strong feelings him being milo manheim milo milo manheim who i guess is popular with the youngs um i my initial impression based on still pictures only is that he does not seem handsome enough to play Flynn Rider, who is objectively the sexiest of the Disney princes. And I am worried the man fanciers in the room are with me. And I worry that he will, but if he has the charisma when moving, I have not watched enough of his oeuvre.

29:58If he has the charisma and the personality, then great, I can be brought back on board. Also, he's way very young, so I don't really know if I'm judging the generation gap. I think we should sit and watch the oeuvre of Milo Manheim, which is Zombies. Oh, I like those. Zombies 2. Oh. Zombies 3. Okay. Is this the Disney Zombies series? This is Disney Zombies, and lest we forget, Zombies 4, Dawn of the Vampires. What? The thing is, though, these Disney kids, the people who come through the Disney system, these are, like, effectively Disney Channel original movies. I don't know how that works now in a streaming era.

30:36But the people who come through that system tend to be extraordinarily talented. And so I trust in the casting of Ila Mannheim and Tegan Croft is going to be Rapunzel. The other thing that is really exciting that is not yet confirmed is that the villain in the film, Mother Gothel, seems to be cast as Catherine Han, which incredible casting. I presume they just Googled mother and Catherine Han came up and they were like Gothel. Great. So Tegan Croft is Rapunzel. Now I haven't seen her move. That apparently is important. But I've seen a couple of pictures of her. She doesn't seem to have hair that is 28 feet long.

31:23It's blonde, but it's about like here. You can just take some supplements. It'll be fine. Don't worry about it. She needs to fucking sort her shit out. That's what I'm saying. anyway I'm very excited about that I've never seen Tangled oh it's so good it's really underrated it does not get the shine of like Frozen and Moana but it's great and the songs are great Mother Knows Best Banger I see the light oh my god the chameleon Pascal the chameleon top tier Disney guy Pedro Pascal as Pascal what do you think yes I like it I didn't realise we would be fantasy casting Tangled perhaps a new low for the podcast and believe me, we've hit some lows.

32:07Alright, that is it for the movie news section. Shall we barrel straight into reviews, folks? Let's do it. We can do it. We have 20 minutes. Shall we talk about Hamnet, first of all? Let's talk about Hamnet, the mild cigar. It is out today in cinemas January 9th across the country. It's already been out in the States, of course. This is probably going to win certainly Best Actress for Jessie Buckley. Nothing seems certain anymore, but she is, I think, the front line. Who's eking into her lead? Eking into her lead, rather. I don't remember. Somebody else just won one of the big awards. Thanks, Helen.

32:41My mind's gone blank. I'm on stage. Hell's bells. Tell us about this. This is about how William Shakespeare didn't write all his plays, right? Don't you fucking dare. I have my Shakespeare earrings in and I will fong you. You've got Shakespeare earrings in? Obviously. What? You had Captain America ones on in the future? and now you've got Bill Shakespeare? So fickle. You're not theming your jewellery to the subject under discussion? Weird. Anyway. This is why I fail. This is Chloe Zhao's adaptation of Maggie O 'Farrell's novel, which is about a character called Will who marries a woman called Agnes and they have some children and then Will goes to London and becomes a playwright.

33:25And, you know, basically it's William Shakespeare and his wife and his children. and you've got Jesse Buckley and Paul Meskell in the central roles. Two of Ireland's finest exports. Abso-frickin-lutely. And this is, yeah, it's just a kind of a closely observed character study, domestic drama. It's about their lives and it's about this woman who is very rooted in her place in the world, like in nature, in the forest, in her family life. she's kind of you know a bit of a herbalist she's kind of just very attuned to the seasons and she falls for this guy who is all kind of intellect and ideas and not necessarily always good at expressing himself and his emotions to her and it's a it's a very strange mix they it's kind of an opposites attract thing but also a sense that they find something that they need in each other and they recognize a shared sense of maybe loss or trauma or something um and they form a very genuine bond but it is stretched by the fact that he's clearly unhappy in this life and he clearly needs something that she can't give him in this house and so you end up with him living away and coming back and visiting and um and visiting her and their three kids and then there is um some tragedy involved as well i don't want to like go through the whole film for you it's not a big spoiler.

34:49It's literally... Can I just... Just because you've mentioned their meeting. Can we talk about the meet cute very, very briefly? Because Shakespeare's got fucking game. Like, genuinely, see Hot Girl, walk up to Hot Girl, stroke her hawk, not a euphemism, ask her name, and then they are making out in a doorway. I mean, come on! It's even better than that. He goes, tell me your name. And she goes, I won't tell you my name. They're not Irish in the film, but I've made them Irish. Tell me your name. She goes, I won't tell you my fucking name back off and and he's like you'll tell me your name when i kiss you i was like jesus christ i know he shakespeare i get it he's got a silver tongue stop it but but come on he would clean up on hinge i mean what would hope why are you surprised that shakespeare's got game he's got so many horny sonnets yeah horn dog sonnets is what he did yeah the man wrote romeo and julius if he can't talk you into bed no one can i i see what i do see what you're saying yeah but yeah go on you talk but i do think it's interesting that i do think it's interesting that i've talked a little bit about this i've mentioned this on the podcast before but i think this is one of the films this the last 12 months that is really about how sometimes you can't say what you're feeling and you can't express yourself properly to the people around you and you end up using art to do that and that is ultimately what I think this film is about in the same way that Sinners is in the same way the sentimental value is in the same way that many of the best films of the last 12 months are really about the importance of art and they're kind of I think a creed occur against you know all this AI bullshit that's happening at the moment and also just even before that all the sort of deciding what films get made by algorithm and just making sequels and remakes and reboots and everything else it's about no we can use art to say things and to express ourselves and to say the things we need to say deep in ourselves and get them out there and and ultimately i think that's what this film is about and ultimately that's what really hit hard um to me as well and there are tragic moments in this that also will bring a tear to your eye and this is a real three hanky weepy at times um but i think it's also about that about that oh art not like that You absolute bastards.

37:04You monsters. Anyway, I loved it. I literally came out saying, I think that's best picture. Now, I don't necessarily think that anymore just from an Oscar race shape of point of view. But I think in terms of quality and in terms of just sweeping emotion, I think it should absolutely be in that conversation. And I love it. It should come with a dehydration public health warning. Like genuinely, Chris. You're doing it deliberately. Even I heard it that time. Right, fair enough. But I was bawling my fucking eyes out through this film, and not just because, as you point out, Chris, she behaves inappropriately in the theatre.

37:41She does, James. Yes, thank you. So at the end of this movie, I don't want to spoil it, but at the end of the movie, the movie ends. And I hope that's not a spoiler. And then lots of names come up on the screen. And there's a point where Agnes, It was actually pronounced Agnes, which I didn't realize. But it is. She goes to see Hamlet being performed. And she has a reaction that I think is very relatable to anyone who's gone to see a Shakespeare play. Because she literally starts going, what are they saying? What's he doing? And I'm very much like that when I go see a Shakespeare play. What the fuck?

38:21Yes, I know. What's this about? Did Marla write this one? I'm a little bit confused. Anyway, it's a great film. That ending, fuck me. Chloe Shaw brings it home in a way she hasn't managed since the triumphant last 10 minutes of Eternals.

38:41Good movie. Good movie. And yeah, it's absolutely terrific. The performances are incredible. And Jesse Buckley, that last 10 minutes is absolutely astonishing. And yeah, she's going to waltz off with a little gold guy. maybe Chloe Shaw will as well I'm not sure about Paul Meskel but because it's not really Shakespeare's tale if you want to say Shakespeare's story watch Ben Elton's sitcom Upstart Crow I'm not kidding it's fucking great but there you go we gave this one four stars Helen I think you're in the five camp 100 % yeah as am I are you as am I really it was wonderful amazing alright four stars then for Hamnet out in cinemas right now as is Giant which is a movie about the true life of Prince Nassim Hamid, one of the greatest British boxers of all time, of all time and tells the story of his rise to power, played by Amir El Mazri and his coach, his Irish coach Pierce Brosnan Jimbo Yes, this does come with a public health warning, Pierce Brosnan is back on his Irish accent.

39:57I'm so sorry. It's not Mobland, but you have been warned. Does he sing? Yes. I have to see this movie. I have not seen this. He genuinely does sing it. I'm so sorry. Is it Abba? It's not Abba. I'm an indifferent sports fan. For those of you like me who don't know sports, but are also old, you will however I think remember Prince Nassim Hamid because he was massive in the 90s not just because he was a great boxer but he was part of the kind of cultural fabric and I think part of that was he was an Ali-like showman like he brought an element of almost WWE type panto to boxing you know with his antics and his boasting somersaulting into the ring dancing around his opponents and and taunting them he was a raging bell in this basically what I'm saying uh and and that's you This film doesn't shy away from that.

40:55So you see him, he starts as a seven-year-old boy when he first enters a gym, and then he goes on to, and I think it's 36 out of 37 of his professional fights. And you see his climb up, and it's not just about him, it's about his relationship with Pierce Brosnan, speaking in an Irish accent, as Brendan Engle, this sort of legendary boxing trainer, but also father figure for him. So it's kind of like a paternal love story in there as well. I think that works on one level, because Nassim is a difficult character to like. So having the lens of seeing him through the eyes of his coach, I think works very, very well.

41:29But there is a rift between them. And we follow Ingle's point of view. And as a result, this doesn't become, it's almost not Hamid's story. It is Ingle's story. And as a result, I think Hamid comes across as slightly caricatured. You never really understand. You never get to know who Nassim Hamid was. And I think that's really one of the failings of this film. You feel that you don't get into his head. you don't really get to know him and the other thing and this is a genuine problem for a boxing movie and that's that the boxing lacks punch if you'll forgive the pun like it really does like because it's not a high budget film but there's the lack of dynamism to the boxing sequences and the cinematography and you know the way they're put together and i think they lean too much on hamid's persona on his on his showmanship but not enough like it's not creed is what i'm saying so there's literally there's one fight where you see it through a crt tv set in a sheffield Terrace House, which is not the ideal way to watch a boxing match.

42:24It is a choice, but it does sap a little bit from the experience of the film. I think add to that, I would say this film has what I think will be a polarizing ending. It feels a little bit hollow. It feels like you maybe feel a little bit cheated by it. I think that doesn't necessarily sit well and some of the stuff that's relegated to the end title should have been dramatized. I think it's an interesting story. I think he's an interesting character. I think this ultimately falls down a little bit. These are the choices of the director, Rowan Athel. Yes, that's right. And directed it. His idea for this was, let's make it Rocky meets Billy Elliot with a hint of Rocketman to it.

43:03It's a concoction of different ideas. Boy, does he miss! I'm not sure that it quite lands on any of those points. Like I said, I wasn't bored. I actually quite enjoyed the film. But I think that's because I find the story of that character quite interesting. But I'm not sure that it really works. I find bits of it very good. and I think it was I think I thought it actually did quite a good job of expressing the issues that both each had with the other by the end of the film I kind of understood why both of them were angry with each other and I thought they both had a point but were also wrong on other points and I thought that was quite a nicely handled thing that it didn't ultimately come down too heavily on either side I think yeah inevitably any young brash arrogant boxer is going to be a dickhead in the middle of the film like that's 100 % nailed on in every boxing story.

43:51But I didn't think it was unduly heavy-handed in this case. So I thought there were some nice bits. I also did a good job of showing that Ingalls was relatively enlightened for his place in time, but also not necessarily always politically correct in a way we would hope to be now. And I thought it handled that element of their relationship quite well as well. I actually thought that Pierce was good in this. I think there's a weird disconnect that we feel as an audience the strange thing about Pierce Brosnan doing an Irish accent is that Pierce Brosnan is Irish but for some reason even Irish people associate him so much with James Bond and Remington Steele and that very posh cut glass English accent that he does so well that when he does speak in an Irish accent you're like wow this doesn't feel right there's a sort of cognitive dissonance going on with that But he's actually doing all right here.

44:46And he brings a bit of warmth and eccentricity to the character. But it's not Nassim Hamid's story. And sadly, I think the paucity of its budget also tells in the end as well. And I thought it was disappointing, to be honest. And so did we. We gave it two stars. Two stars then. Oh, just flick the fees at the audience. Two stars then for Giant. There is one other film to talk about in detail. Ben, you saw Song Sung Blue. I did and I've got to be honest I saw a trailer for this a couple of months ago in the cinema just in a regular cinema screening and I was watching the trailer and you know I not to be mean but I thought that looks naff really naff it was a bad trailer adding into this as the title might give away it's a film themed to an extent around the music of Neil Diamond of whom I am not a fan.

45:42I could not care less about it. I do not know many of the songs, but particularly, I don't know how egregious this is. I hate Sweet Caroline. I hate Sweet Caroline. And if I never hear it again, that would be so good. Wah, wah, wah. So good. So good. So good. It was on a band list for our wedding. I was literally like, The band played at your wedding? No. I was like, if I fucking hear that, I'm like walking out of my own wedding. Like I'm not. Put it next to Top Loaded Dancing in the Moonlight. I've just stick it in the bin, boot it into the sun.

46:17Unbelievable. All of which to say, I really enjoyed Song Song Blue. Hooray! It was a really nice time at the movies. So this stars Hugh Jackman as Mike Sardina, a.k.a. Lightning. He is a musician who's 20 years sober. he is just sort of a jobbing musician here and there he picks up gigs partly which is themed around like impersonating other people and yet at the same time beyond covering people's songs he is lightning he has constructed this persona for himself and he ends up meeting Kate Hudson's character Claire Sardina who is also a singer she is performing as Patsy Cline and they basically strike up this duo he's lightning he's like you can be thunder we are lightning and thunder and they create this duo that is you know covering neil diamond songs but those two together and a band that they create and it basically tells the they were real people and it tells the insane story of their lives and i haven't seen this film yet but i've heard everyone i know who's seen it goes, you have no idea where the story goes.

47:31Oh my God. It's so weird. Yeah. Every 15, 20 minutes. It's so weird. So weird. So weird. I can't believe. Don't like that. Nope. Okay. Nope. But like, it's the kind of thing you would absolutely not get away with writing this as a screenplay. No. Unless it actually happened. You would be laughed out of town for writing this if it hadn't actually happened and had been documented in a documentary in what 2008 that they've kind of then been inspired to to make this film from you it's just so weird and so some crazy stuff happens there's lots of crazy stuff that happens and yet it's all really well anchored by craig brewer who writes and directs this uh he's the guy who did dolomite is my name he did the coming to america sequel i thought this was just really like solidly well made and he's not flinging the camera about like crazy but there's some really nice energy in the musical sequences there's a lot of them on stage playing music and i as i noted sweet caroline hater felt the joy when they were playing together and it becomes yes about the mad things that happen to these two through the course of their lives and through their kind of musical life together and the relationship they strike up.

48:48But it is also just about how like two, you know, slightly strange, but nice people find each other and like making music together. And that that becomes something that connects them to audiences and they become known in their local area. They become a big deal in their local area because Lightning and Thunder, the Neil Diamond experience becomes a thing that people want to go out and see. and so i was really taken by this and um kate hudson is amazing in it oh my god her milwaukee accent is spot on i just thought all around like she was so magnetic on the screen and it made me realize how much i've missed seeing kate hudson um and obviously there's a lineage right back to like almost famous that it feels like there's some connective tissue there in in the music and the era that I was just really like swept up by that.

49:41We know Hugh Jackman's great. We know he's really good at singing. Kate Hudson was like the MVP of this. So in conclusion, did you find it touching, touching me, touching you, everybody sing along. Sweet Caroline. Good times never felt so good. So good. So good. So good. We gave it three. Four. I think we gave it four. Four stars. Oh, my voice is fine. You're all dead to me. Four stars then for Song Song Blue. Amazing stuff. Time now for our first batch of guests in this no-holds-barred guestapalooza, folks. Oh, yes. Get out your calendars. I assume you all have calendars on you, right? Like proper ones you got for Christmas?

50:34No? No one has a calendar? What the fuck? Anyway, if you do have a calendar, circle February 13th on it. Friday, February 13th. The perfect time for a horror movie to hit cinemas. Like a little film called Whistle. Oh.

50:58I know plant the season is gone, but come on. Like a little film called Whistle. oh there we go terrible whistles though it's about a creepy Aztec death whistle whose terrifying shriek signals your impending demise and we're delighted to be joined tonight by its director and star sure the weather outside is frightful but they've made the long trip to King's Place because they're hardy and keen as in he's hardy she's keen, he's corn hardy she's Daphne Keane

51:44There you go. Corin Hardy and Daphne Keane. What the hell? Please take a seat. Not the same seat, ideally. I'll move over here. I'll move over here. Thank you for that lovely round of applause. Can I just say, I might as well fess up right now, that cracking line in the intro, he's hardy, she's keen. Corrin, that was your line, wasn't it? I wrote that for you, Chris. Yeah. That was you? Yeah. Well, to be fair. Of course that was you. We were communicating yesterday and Corrin said, we'll make it because we're hardy and keen. And I was like, fuck. That's magical. The full line was because we were hoping our friend Nick Frost would be here.

52:26Oh, that's true. I said that we're sad not to have a touch of frost, but we're hardy and keen. Yeah. See? Yeah. It could have been truly magical, but I felt the shivers going down my spine. But that was extraordinary. Welcome, guys. How are you both? I'm good. I'm very well. How are you? Yeah, I'm very, very good. Daphne, how are you? I'm good. Yeah. Good, good, good. Excellent day. How is everyone here? Yeah. Not for long. All right.

52:57I almost wonder if we should talk about the elephant in the room Corin, you've come on clutching a briefcase like you're the bloke who hangs around with Donald Trump that's like the nuclear football what's in that? shall I get it out? well, it is panto season, I guess this is an exclusive just for the Empire Live podcast this is the key this is a key should we explain very quickly what the film's about before we do this I thought you'd done that I did it but you know just to did they all watch the trailer have you watched the trailer yeah yeah they've watched the trailer so they know what the film's about but Daphne can you set up Whistle what happens in Whistle what might you're in it I am yes yes I'm in it it's a film about an ancient Olmec artifact a whistle that summons your future death to hunt you down.

53:53Okay. And this thing in the movie is a terrifying, very well-designed prop called Inchoka. Inchoka. Inchoka. And, Corrin, what have you done, man? This is... This is so Corrin. This is the most Corrin thing I've ever experienced. This is absolutely terrible. I always want to make it at least feel a bit special if we get to come on such a great show, podcast like this. Yeah. Thank you for that one person who clapped. So I thought it would be sort of a New Year exclusive to be able to bring the other lead character alongside Daphne. Sophie is not in here. No Sophie and Elise, unfortunately. Oh my God.

54:46Oh my God. So. ladies and germs this is in choker brought by karn hardy uh okay let's see it let's see her oh my word oh look at that i don't think you want him to blow it you guys well that was an idea anyway uh we'll see we'll see if there are particularly naughty audience will blow it because what does in choker do exactly explain explain in choker to everybody Yes, so this is an ancient cursed artifact that if you hear the sound of the whistle, the whistle scream, it brings your future death to hunt you down. And that might be, you know, you might be lucky enough that you live another 90 years or it might be five, whatever it is.

55:37If you hear that sound, it pulls it to visit you and give its death to your life. Why? because it's evil okay the fucking horror film chris i mean i i would throw it far away far away but but uh but definitely your character in this chris yes short for a chrysanthemum yes which is an amazing character name by the way great character name yeah uh she is how would you say she's involved with this this evil thing well it appears in her locker she's just moved towns um she's moving in with her cousin when we find her she's just lost her father and she's just gone out of rehab so she's kind of moving to a small town to see if she can like start her life anew she gets to school and she finds this in her locker um and she doesn't want to blow it but everyone else does and so she's kind of a byproduct of that My eyes are drawn to it You know in Lord of the Rings The ring in Lord of the Rings How that kind of seduces And calls you to blow it It's a little bit like that So it might be starting to You can't say it like that, Corrin You can't I just did It's like when Corrin took it out, stop One guy in the audience immediately shouted Blow it!

57:01And it's like, it's not that sort of podcast, my friend but it could be it's a fun place but it won't be just to make it very very clear Karin you are obviously a huge horror movie nut how involved were you in the design of this because you wanted to create something iconic spoiler alert you've succeeded thank you this is amazing from the start when I read this script and heard about this it's a real thing an Aztec death whistle and I was taken in by... It's a real thing which anyone that hasn't heard of it, you can Google and you can read about the mythologies. There's a lot of sort of mixed beliefs about what it was used for, whether it was used in sacrificial rituals.

57:49It's been found in the hands of beheaded skeletons and it was possibly used as a battle cry going to war. and so we had to it was kind of a lead character in the movie as well it had to hold up for close ups and I employed a Spanish concept artist Daniel Carrusco really talented guy and and we had to design a number of looks and I had about 50 different ones to try and find a look that would be almost could transform under different light sources and where the position of the light was and whether it was candlelight or reflections off a swimming pool or moonlight or bedroom light. And so it can have a kind of vacant expression staring out at you and judging you.

58:40But also if you lit it from above, it can look malicious. You talking about me or the angioka? Daphne, do you remember your first encounter with this evil specimen? Sorry, I meant to point it, Warren. I remember my first encounter with both evil specimens. It was, in Choker, we were doing that... meeting in your office with Sophie and Sophie and I would just be like we usually do um it's like reading lines and then suddenly he was like i'm showing you the whistle and he brought out i think it was two whistles at that point because you hadn't decided exactly what it was going to look like yeah um but it was we were all very intimidated by it like coron would be like blow it we were like no no one's touching that that's fucking terrifying um and that's been a long running throughout the production crew cast no one wanted to fuck with it on set.

59:37They'd be like, someone hold it. And everyone would be like, no. So what made you sign on then? Because it looks terrifying. Did it haunt your dreams? I spoke to someone who should remain nameless, a very famous actress the other day, because this is what I do. And she said that she was on a, she made a horror film years ago in 1998 with Denzel Washington, John Goodman and Donald Sutherland. Directed by Gregory Hoblet. but I don't want to give you any more clues and she said she was fucking terrified all the way through making it because she had done loads of research into demons and demonology and just could not sleep were you the same with this?

1:00:16well I did my research and then I very quickly was like no and also I was living out in Canada on my own and it was so terrible, we were in the most haunted hotel of all time like to the point where I had never met Sophie before and Sophie texted me. Sophie was like, ah, I'm so sorry. I've never done this before in my life. Would you mind if I sleep over with you? I'm shitting myself. And I was like, I am so glad you've messaged me because I have a knife under my pillow as we speak. So it was, there was like a spooky vibe all around. So we were, me and Sophie then developed this habit where we would literally sleep over every night because it was so scary.

1:00:56But yeah, it was, we were also doing so many night shoots and it was outside. It was such a, like a physically grueling shoot that it did feel very much like we were, we were in it, but yeah, definitely researching death whistles. Not, not for the faint of heart. Me, I am the biggest scaredy cat. I was, I had to close the laptop. There was like a certain point in the night where I was like, okay, past 7 PM. Maybe we don't. You know what I mean? Like, I know you wake up and the laptop will be open again. Yeah. Terrifying. At least Sophie was with me. Had a knife to stab the laptop. I've just, uh, and Corrin, I know, obviously you're a big research guy as well.

1:01:34So how much research did you do into this sort of stuff? And did it get into your head? Not to speak for you, but you were, Corrin is like the most wonderfully obsessive person ever. So he would always come with like all these facts and these visuals and these like soundscapes and these things for you to draw from. And I just, I'm fascinated as to how you're not terrified because he has all the context ever. He's like, yes, well, because in the year you're like how do you know this where have you acquired this information and how is it not haunting you thanks for making me sound super smart no i did i did a lot of research um after i said reading that script finding out about it and then we had to sort of get into pre-production and there was a lot of storyboarding design um to do with the whistle to do with the the what i'm calling perishments yes the perishments which i thought was a real word but apparently it's not so it's my new word.

1:02:27It's a new word. Does it not exist? It does now. It does now. But all words are made up, so it's totally... So true. It's totally fine. There's quite a few perishments in the film. Yeah. There really are. There are some deaths in this that made my jaw drop. I don't want to give anything away, but I know there's one that attracted you to the script in the first place. Yeah. I'll talk around it, but when you're making a horror film, of course, there's going to be some intensity, some tensions, probably some death. And in this, there's quite a bit of that. And it was one of the aspects, you know, along with this mythology, which I hadn't come across, which was really exciting.

1:03:05Because I hadn't seen the Death Whistle movie. This is the Death Whistle movie. And that's quite exciting. And unless anyone else in here knows right now of another Death Whistle movie. There's a Death Whistle movie. It's starring Glenn Powell.

1:03:22Yeah, probably. in the horror genre you know it's not it's obviously there's cursed object movies and there's the ring vhs and there's the hellraiser configuration box yeah but so the mythology and then the idea of like concocting a series of sort of strange bizarre inventive visual death sequences um it required a lot of you know working with all the members of the crew the prop makers the prosthetics and the stunt versions and creature performers to sort of pull off these series of perishments. No, there's a perishment that's worth the price of admission alone. Well, that one was, can't say what it is, but I read the script.

1:04:01It was Owen Edgerton's script, an adaptation of his book called Untimely that he'd written. And this particular one really jumped out at me and I thought, I sort of had to double take, read that death. And it was sort of like, I think this is probably worth making the movie for. And it's a nice feeling when you get that feeling of sort of like, well, I haven't seen this. And, you know, we've all seen lots and lots of horror movies, lots of, you know, perishments. So I was sort of like, this is a new one. I don't know how to do it. We'll do a spoiler special. We can talk about it in detail then.

1:04:37Something very cool about that death without giving anything away is that it had incredible prosthetics and we also had a contortionist on set, which was really cool. That's it. That's what I'll say. When they bring in the contortionist, you know that death is gonna be good folks it's sick we actually had two we had two contortionists and you know everyone had everyone had like but this specific death had shout out troy yeah contortionist who was like sick amazing i wondered i wanted to do an experiment and wondered if you'd be the first audience to hear the sound of the death whistle and I would say if anyone in here is uncomfortable and doesn't want to hear the sound of the death whistle you could

1:05:24yeah that's a wise decision I'll carry on you know narrating the show I've brought one pair of earplugs so I've got one pair of earplugs so I can save one person out of you guys so hands up for the people that want to wear a pair of earplugs whilst we blow the death whistle anyone? oh there is one, there you go I'll do it shall I throw these over to you and you can pop these in so we'll hand out these afterwards yeah we'll hand them out you'll be the first audience so whoever hears Njoga's cry will die no, well yes but you're well yes your future death i mean this is what was chilling about this movie it was the idea that your death knows what that looks like it's out there waiting for you and if you hear the in choker's cry it comes to visit you in the next couple of days it comes to visit you just like for the christmas so it's a bit like us all saying candy man five times together or watching the VHS tape in the ring together, but we've...

1:06:37Do you want to do it? No, listen, you brought it all this way. Let's fucking do it. All right, okay. Lock the doors, I guess. All right, okay. I'll have to hold the microphone up here to Daphne. Okay. Daphne Keane, murder all these people, please. Oh, God. Three, two, one.

1:07:01You're all dying. Bye. Bye.

1:07:15All right. Okay. I hope that the person who will be doing this next interview is standing by the door. Please give it up. Let's see if this works for Alex Godfrey. Hey.

1:07:36Yeah. Felt so good. All right, next up, our second guest. Alex, take a seat. What the fuck are you doing, man? Is this me? Is that a weird existential question? Yes. Where am I? This is you. Who are all you people? Those are my feet. All right, next up is a wonderful British director who made a BAFTA-winning splash with the documentary The Impostor and the 2018 docudrama American Animals. Now he's back, back, back with Crime 101, which is also out, just like Whistle, on February 13th, folks. It's a thriller which pits those friends from work, Chris Hemsworth and Mark Ruffalo, against each other.

1:08:16One is a professional high-end thief. The other is a seemingly shambling detective who is on his trail. What is going to happen? This movie is an absolute belter. Would you please go nuts, absolutely nuts, for the wonderful Bart Layton!

1:08:43Wow, shit. How fun. All right. Thank you very much. How are you, Bart? I'm good. I'm off the plane. Last time I did this with you guys, it was just us in a little booth. So this is a lovely surprise. Slightly scary one as well. It's so nice to be back here. Where have you come from? I came, I went to Costa Rica. We finished the movie and my kids hadn't seen me in a long time. So it was a very last minute thing. We went surfing in Costa Rica, yeah. How was your surfing? How is it? I've been doing it a long time. it should be a lot better than it is. I've been doing it for decades. By English standards, I think I'm all right.

1:09:28But by their standards, I was pretty shit. Any surfers in the audience? Oh, none. Good. Funnily enough. It's pretty good. It's very good. Thanks for joining us, Bart. As Chris said, this is an incredible film. As are your other films. He mentioned The Imposter, which was your 2012 documentary about someone pretending to be someone else, identity fraud, I guess, and then some. I spoke to you for American Animals, which is your brilliant 2017-18 film about an art heist. You also, you sort of, you've co-founded a production company, right, called Raw. And with them, you're responsible for a slew of incredible true crime documentaries on Netflix, The Tinder Swindler.

1:10:20The Puppet Master. Fierce City. New York versus the Mafia. Very good, yeah. Deepest Breath. Yes. Not Crime. Well, yeah, I was going to say, well, no, you've ruined it now. Sorry, sorry. A lot of crime. Your new film is literally called Crime 101. Mm-hmm. What happened to you as a kid? Why are you so obsessed with bad people doing bad things? it's an interesting question I think there's something you know if you grow up as a British kid in the 80s or whatever you there were those movies that we all remember those sort of seminal moments of cinema which I think you know and we'll all have our version of what that was that thing that you saw with your dad or you know whether it was heat or things in that vein and I suppose that always felt like not necessarily the pinnacle of an intelligent popcorn movie and I remember very early on watching TJ Hooker or something as a 10 year old and my mum coming in going why are you watching this and her turning the channel and saying, if you're going to stare at the box, there's a proper movie on.

1:11:48And she put The Sting on, which was playing on, I think, BBC Two. And I must have been nine or ten, and I remember thinking, that is... It was probably the first proper grown-up movie, and I was just like, I watched it over and over and over again. And I guess, you know, with Docs, it was very different. I think with Docs, you kind of find your way into a story in a different way. And I think for me, a lot of that was to do with identity and those sorts of things. And as I moved into fiction, and with American Animals, it was obviously this sort of odd hybrid. There was something about this idea of, like, can you borrow this very particular thing that a documentary does?

1:12:34which is because you know that whatever you're seeing play unfold in this narrative is something that happens in the same world that we all inhabit you don't need the bar for drama to be that you know we are so invested and I think there was a sense of you know could with American Analyst Viewer can you borrow something of that thing that a documentary can do which I think people felt in the imposter and some of the other things we've done can you bring some of that into a true story and have people invest and be engaged in a slightly different way. And now with this, I think even though it's a fiction entirely, there was still the same question and intention of like, can we do a proper balls-out heist movie with big Hollywood actors?

1:13:27We shot all over LA. It was all on location. and we tried, or as much as you can when you've got a crew of hundreds of people, it was about can you bring in as much of the real world as possible. So what you'll see is not Chris Hemsworth, the kind of Cary Grant, James Bond version of a jewel thief. You'll see a guy who's relatively grounded and a lot of the beginning of the process of writing it It was try to speak to the real people who do those jobs, who steal jewels or have done fences. And so as much as was possible, it was kind of, can we bring some of the real world and some of the documentary into that?

1:14:14I haven't answered that question at all, but that's weird. I was going to say, it's kind of a morality play, the film, isn't it? And it's not as straightforward as it might seem. It's all a bit muddied. It's not a simple case of good guys and bad guys, and that's what's so interesting, I think. The lines blur here and there, and people are always questioning things and themselves. Is that something that you wanted to go for from the start? Yeah, I think I was, like, I've had a weird, like, love-hate thing with LA in that it's a great place to visit. And every time, I always have this weird thing where every time I, like, if I've spent, like, a week or ten days there, and I'm about to get on a flight home, and I always have this one kind of overriding thought as I get on the flight, which is, I must get a fancier car when I get home.

1:15:05Which sounds like a ridiculous thought, but somehow that sort of status anxiety and that idea of you are what you own, you know, what you have, what you wear, the car, it's not that that doesn't exist here, but LA is really a place where that sort of status anxiety is pretty pervasive. And so I guess a lot of what I wanted to do with this was to try and smuggle in some of those ideas about how much of what we are all doing as individuals is about trying to get to a place where you have all the trappings of what looks like a successful life. So in the case of Chris's character, it was about a guy who's really got he's trying to build this ivory tower where you've got the car and you've got the looks and you've got the apartment and all the rest of it and actually he's ended up pretty isolated with not many connections so a lot of it was and all of the characters even though they don't know at the beginning of the movie they're all on this collision course and they're all slightly united by this idea of trying to get to the thing that will make you feel like you're a person of value in the world and I think that was definitely part of what American Animals was about as well.

1:16:22Yeah, I guess all of your films are about identity in some way. But it's interesting because you were talking about your touch points before and the films that inspired you and the crime films you grew up on and the sting and this sort of thing. And while this is a very contemporary film and it's very modern in many ways, it does feel like it's leaning on the heritage of some of those films. certainly there feels like there's a lot of Michael Mann in there there's Thief and there's Heads I think and I mean Mark Ruffalo looks like he's just stepped off the set of Serpico in the film. Can you talk about that was it, how much were you sort of paying tribute to those films or is it just in your bones that that was going to come through?

1:17:03I just felt like, I don't know whether you guys feel this but I felt like there was something we were getting fewer and fewer of those movies that I remembered being like you know there was there was a lot of them in the 80s and 90s you would have those you know and I felt like those things that felt like a proper grown-up you know hopefully thought-provoking thing where it was you know when you think about those movies in the 70s with all of those flawed you know whether it was Steve McQueen whether it was Billy Friedkin's films you know Live and Die in LA and yeah Live and Die in LA French Connection you know they they felt like they were very flawed people that you could relate to and I felt like you know and this was something that Chris and Mark and Hallie we all talked about a lot is like because it's very easy to go into movie world and I really wanted you to feel like when you watch this yes you get all of the things that that we all want from a kind of a proper night out of the movies and you get you know some killer car chases and you get a couple of things but I really wanted you to us all to feel like we could relate deeply to all of the characters like that the problems that they're all dealing with are things that we kind of feel like we have a bit of that in us you know that that need to compete that status anxiety all of that stuff um and then with the 70s and 80s stuff i guess it was you know we were shooting a film noir in la on the streets i was really like determined that we were not going to be shooting Canada or Australia or South Africa or something for LA.

1:18:42LA, it's properly, you know, and, and, and, and I think that hopefully feels exciting. And I guess, um, you know, wanting to, like, I certainly wanted to find a version of Chris Hemsworth you'd never seen before. And I think he's one of the most surprising things about the film like he's like he really can act he's amazing in it every every like him ruffalo halli berry they are this is a game from all of them they are on top the top form and that someone else and i want to talk to you about talking about hollywood heritage and history nick nolte is in this film right and his as soon as you see him his presence the voice is like from another planet he feels like he's from another time and he brings such weight and gravitas to it he's kind of terrifying his own way tell me about casting him and working with him because he just brings something completely different to this yeah yeah um i'm really happy to hear you so i suppose i have that kind of philosophy is of like if you don't ask you don't get right and so it you know when you're kind of having those conversations you think well it would be like like a nick nolte type person and then then you're like oh what's he doing and like what if we uh what about asking him and the thing I think I was really lucky with with this was there were a couple of things like American Animals you know hopefully some of you saw not enough people saw it maybe but but what was good was that actors saw it and seemed to love it and and so that made for an easy first introduction or getting a meeting or whatever and then the script seemed to go down really really well so it was a very fortunate thing of like you kind of start with your ultimate ask and in this case amazingly pretty much everyone was like yeah I'd love to meet and talk about it and then I met with Nick uh in Malibu and he uh and I'd heard all of these crazy stories like I'd met a filmmaker who'd been to his house and um the and Nick had made him eat an orange off the tree and he was like no don't touch it eat it off the tree and he was like uh you'll never eat a fresh orange you know so this guy was doing this kind of crazy like trying to you know and I was like, oh man, what's this going to be like?

1:21:13Were you prepared for Orange? I was prepared for what I was going to do. I would have, you know, whatever it was. Fortunately, it was a Greek restaurant, so it was like there was a limit to how wild it was going to get. But, yeah, so, and we had a great, and also, you know, talking about those movies that I'm sure we'll kind of share, you know, he was in some of those movies that we had on VHS, right, as kids. And because I wanted to try to bring back some of that thing, especially to the cinema. We knew that this was going to be a big theatrical film. That was always the idea. It was always the deal.

1:21:54And when you know that, everyone brings their A game. You know, you people you think about the way you use space in a different way when you know that it's going to be for a room like this and loads of people in the dark. You think about when you're going to use a close up. You think about the faces of all of these people. And so, yeah, so I think everyone responded to that. And I think when you're on set on the first day, people knowing you're making a proper old school kind of thriller. there's a sort of excitement about that and I think that extended to the energy around the casting and then we got Jennifer Jason Leigh and we got Monica Barbaro and we got Corey Hawkins and it just was like wow, you know, every sort of first choice seemed to come in Well, talking of which, we've got a couple of minutes left, there's one more person I want to ask you about so Barry Keoghan who is in American Animals and is in Crime 101 and spoiler he's a proper bastard in this film I mean hateful.

1:22:59He does that very well. And he was brilliant. I remember in American Animals it came out around the same time as Killing a Sacred Deer, which is the first thing I've seen him in. I guess you got him at the beginning of his trajectory really going up. So I want to talk to you about him before we go. And also, I hate to be the one who, before this film is even out, to go, what are you coming up next? I'm not going to do that to you. But there is a report online from couple of years ago that you and barry were going to be making a new billy the kid together i wanted to ask you about your constant collaboration with him because it's like the constant it's an ongoing partnership now and is that still in the works yes so i mean barry and i are like i mean he says like brothers but we're more like i'm like the kind of like dad more than the brother if truth But he's a very, obviously an extraordinary talent, but he's also a very special man, like a deeply, I don't know whether that comes across, but he's a sensitive and lovely human.

1:24:08And so he was probably the only actor that I wrote the part for. And so that was, even though it's based on a short story and that character was there, it was very, when I adapted it was very much for Barry and even you know seeing his face in you know as you write it sort of changes where it can go and I guess you know I'll work with him for as long as I can yeah Billy the Kid is something that's something he actually came to me and he was like this is the thing I was born to do so we've developed a script which it's not like the classic western our thought was let's do it like a kind of gangster um movie and actually with a really brilliant young british writer called hunter andrews and the three of us have sort of cooked up something which is yeah it's more like references things like the departed than it does you know the outlaw josie wells or something like So it's still, you know, whether with everything that he and I have on, and he's not getting any younger, so he's chomping at the bit to do it.

1:25:21But yeah, it's something that we're still percolating on. It's a very exciting proposition. He's amazing. He's brilliant in this film, and it's a brilliant film. We've got to wrap up, but thank you so much for your time, and everyone go and see Crime 101. Thank you for having me, guys. Thank you so much.

1:25:42Thank you. Alex Godfrey. Alex Godfrey and Bart Layton, everybody. Thank you.

1:25:56All right. Please welcome to interview our third guest of the evening, the greatest Madam Web of them all, Beth Webb.

1:26:13Hello. See, Beth dressed up for the evening. What is your excuse? Okay. Our third guest is another of our favorite directors who is sticking true to his uber-prolific ways this year. Sometime around April, we'll get to see Normal, an action movie that teams in with Bob Odenkirk. But right now, he's about to go on tour around the country with his new movie, Bulk, which stars Sam Riley, Alexandra, Maria Lara, and Noah Taylor. and is genuinely, genuinely an utter mindfuck of a movie. Unlike anything you have ever seen and I am not underselling it. Here to explain that movie to Beth and to you guys as well, will you please go nuts for the director of Down Terrace, Kill List, Sightseers, A Field in England, Oh God, I've got to list them all now in case I leave one out, High Rise, Free Fire, Happy New Year, Colin Burstead.

1:27:13Rebecca in the earth. Meg to the trench. And now, Bulk, the great Ben Wheatley!

1:27:23Hi!

1:27:29Hello. Woo!

1:27:37Jesus. There's a lot of people. Out of this, sorry. Talk amongst yourselves. Oh, how do I do this? Oh, there we go. Smile. Yay. Cool. Thanks. Let's talk, first of all, by what I'm packing in my jacket here. Oh, Christ. It's all right, guys. It's all right. What have we got here? They're CDs. It's the official soundtrack. And I've basically broken one of the rules and become a multi-hyphenate. And I wrote the theme tune to this one as well. So this is my music. And I listened to it back the other day. Yeah, it's all right. It's all right. There is one track that just goes on for about two minutes with Birdsong on it.

1:28:27I can't remember making that one. But whoever wins this will enjoy it and probably have to go and buy a CD player to play it on. Yeah, we're going to get these out at the end, guys. And we've decided you're going to describe people in the audience and then I'm going to run out. I'm not going to do it like Corinne because I think it might end up in a lawsuit.

1:28:47Why was Bulk the film that made you break the rule? I think I've been building up to it and it was a mad enough movie to suit my style of music. When I'm working with composers, you can ask them, you can go, oh, can I have something that's a bit more this mood and that mood? when I'm working with myself, I'm like, yeah, that's fine. And what is your style of music? Well, you have to find out on the CD or watch the film, but it's electronic. Perfect. And birdsong. Book, I'm going to give a loose synopsis, which is the, I'm sorry, it's the best I can do. It's Sam Riley, hard-boiled reporter, who's kind of recruited, sort of against his will, to retrieve a scientist played by Noah Taylor from a world of his own making.

1:29:41Am I sort of on the right track there? Maybe if you've got the other actors in it. Like Mark Monero is the one who's... Yeah. Well, this is where I'm going to pass over to you because I've done my absolute best here. But I think best for everybody, if you could tell us a little bit more about Bulk and what... Well, I don't know. I mean, I don't really want to... It's like explaining a joke, isn't it? You have to sit here and do a film you don't know anything about. So I think the best bet is to go and see it and I'm doing a series of Q &As so you can get a chance to quiz me on the meaning of it but I'll be very slippery about it because I hate that shit I am the man who did 20 Q &As about Kill List and didn't give anything away it is an intimate film it is practical effects it's reunions with I Won't Do The Voice Sam Riley and there were Taylor and how did it feel to kind of come back and do something like this on a smaller scale where you were involved in every single layer of it oh yeah it's the best fun I mean I think that there's a there's a kind of misconception that that careers are like you know it's a linear path and if you're not getting more money each time and get being Bobby big time it's something's gone wrong but I really enjoy working at different budget levels and have done all my career so to make a um a low budget movie it means you can be very experimental you know you've got an audience the audience has doesn't have to be everybody in the world you know so you can be a bit more niche and indulgent sorry and where did this story start with you what was like the kernel um i'd written a um a graphic novel a couple of years ago and i've been writing um comic book stuff.

1:31:33I've been working with 2000 AD writing for them as well. The comic book writing opened me up a bit and I was a bit freer in my thinking. I wanted to make something that was science fiction, so it started there. So I treated it more like the comic book writing than I would do a normal script. Suddenly everything became a lot more fluid. And then when did your class come in? You've got obviously people you've worked with before, people you haven't worked with before. yeah I mean basically it was more like I just phoned up Sam and Alex and said you want to be in something and they were like yeah what is it I don't know I'll work that out but it's great to have to work with people that are open like that and that was a basic thing we're pushing forward with a project we didn't know what it was so that was like you're slightly negotiating with them and going do you have time to do it when is the time and then it all comes together like that so there's bits of basic practical stuff like that and then and then at the same time this the idea for the film was coming together and pitched it to them and they liked it so then we did it but i think it's it's much more organic than it might be on a normal job where you'd go okay we have to go we're sending the script out to various people and they're oh they'll read it in three weeks no they haven't read it no they don't want to do it blah blah blah and then eventually get someone are they worth them enough money to make the movie yes no and then it goes this is much more like yeah we're all gonna do you want to come out I think what I said to Sam is you want to come out to play and he went yeah I do what is it about Sam you've got such a wonderful I mean through this journey you guys have been a constant right like what is it about Sam that keeps making you come back to him well it's the same with a lot of the actors that I work with multiple times it's just that you I've enjoyed working with them you know and you want to go back to them and it's like having seen Sam having worked with him a few times but then also I've seen him in other stuff and I've seen the behind the scenes stuff from other movies that he's done and all like audition stuff and he's very his range is massive so it's like he could do anything I think but him and Alex together it's like it was so weird just getting them down to Brighton to do something that's small scale like this but then it's just like having proper Hollywood stars in front of you and you know And it's always a difficult thing standing next to Riley as well because he's so fucking good looking.

1:33:51You know, you always feel terrible. He played, I love his character. He's kind of this almost like romantic notion of what like a hard-boiled journalist is. Have you got a kind of relationship with those kind of characters that you wanted to bring to this film? Yeah, well, it was a riff on, I mean, Samuel and I were always laughing about when we were doing, Rebecca, he looked like Alan Delon in The Samurai. and we would take photographs of him with his hat and stuff I always think he's a bit like that but then this is kind of Bulk is kind of thinking about Alphaville and the hard-boiled elements of that so that's where we're going for but both I and Sam have a love of that 40s noir stuff so that's what we were kind of interested in You got into some model making for this is this your first time working with models in movies and what was that like to get to?

1:34:44No, I think we did some models in High Rise. And I made this show called Generation Z before that and we used models in that. So it's been a kind of ongoing, but you have to kind of feel your way with models because it's when to use them, when are they going to be, what are they useful for, when are they going to work, when they're not going to work. So it's kind of just over movies getting more confident with it. Did you use it for normal as well? Did I get that right? Yeah. But they're more hidden. So if you can spot the models in normal then there's a problem as opposed to bulk which is more like look at these they're models it's fun yeah let's talk about normal so that's coming out in april bob oden kirk plays a cop in a small town that's very peaceful until it isn't so could you tell me a little bit about so this wasn't written by yourself you came on board with bob is that right yeah and it's derrick coldstadt who wrote um the wick yes trilogy but who'd created john wick yeah it's it's um it's a nice it's kind of like a 70s um action movie was what we were going for and i think one of the rules was every everything has to be practical so we blow up lots of stuff and smash things up and shoot out so there's a kind of a half of it's a character building half of it's ass kicking and how is bob with the ass kicking he's very scarily good at ass kicking you know we already knew it from uh nobody but yeah he's you know his energy is um very warm and empathetic and then you see him fucking jumping about punching people and it's like oh glad i didn't get into any arguments with him but how is it staging because those fight sequences if it's coming from someone from like that wick background the fight sequences must come with like an inbuilt level of expectation what were those days on set like when you had to get stuck into those really knotty choreographed fight sequences?

1:36:38Yeah, I mean, I think it's, you've got a lot of backup because you've got really skilled fight choreographers and you've got a big stunt team. And there's been a lot of planning, you know, for something, I storyboard a lot, but for, again, for normal, I was like, you know, I storyboarded every aspect of it. So I kind of knew what we were getting into, but it's more like you want to deliver the action, but you then, it's like how much time have you got to shoot it? And we were a modest budget, but I think we came through with that. I mean, it's all over the trailer and that's only a drop in it.

1:37:12I think it's like 45 minutes of just solid fighting. I can't wait. Yeah. I read somewhere you staged part of the action sequences in Free Fire in Minecraft, is that right? Yeah. You've done that since? No. But I was using Grand Theft Auto as well for designing action. Really? Yeah. For which? It was for when we were putting together Freak Shift on various iterations that never happened. But there is a kind of movie editor inside of Grand Theft Auto. It's really interesting. You can connect the cameras to the sides of the vehicles and you basically act it out and play it and then you can put cameras into it and then it'll output a movie from that.

1:38:02So for doing like, if you're trying to put together car chases, it's quite a good tool for that. Yeah. It does look very much like Grand Theft Auto though, but it's like, you know, but you use it, you can use it as a tool to demonstrate to production what might happen if you had all the money in the world. I heard someone audibly sigh about Freak Shift not happening are we what's happening? Yeah we're just waiting for that moment that sweet spot when giant crab movies come back so I don't know I mean you can't have any more Godzilla films we've got to have a giant crab I think so I mean I know that there's a problem with it that people just say well you just run in a straight line because they can only go side to side but I think if the crabs attack in two lines like so they can they can go like that I mean I'm also a big fan of those crab if you've seen those crab books there's like a whole series of crabs and crabs attack and all that and there's one with like a it's got a pincer and it's holding a sword so why would you why would you do that if you've got if you got them use them you know yeah we you know it was developed as a tv show recently and then collapsed so it's just like I know I'm going to be fucking not doing it all my life.

1:39:21Oh, Christ. We need to rally behind this, guys. Maybe I'll do it as a podcast or something. What's that noise? Oh, my God. The crabs are at the door.

1:39:34Bastards, run to the side. That's the way we have my whole conversation. I wanted to talk about the fanzines you've been putting out for this, which are remarkable. I mean, we've got a little taste of the aesthetic with these CDs, but you've just been sat down drawing and writing these fanzines since last year, right? Yeah. Yeah, no, I've been really enjoying it. I mean, it's... I had this... At the end of Bulk, there's a whole... In the titles, there's lots of little drawings about how we made the film and how, you know, lots of kind of production tips. And I thought, oh, I could expand this into books.

1:40:11Yeah. So I started drawing them up and flogging them on Instagram. and yeah it's coming together and I'd wanted to write a thing about filmmaking for a long time but I kept starting to write it and it was always too self-serious and kind of like oh you know and turgid as prose but when you put it to drawings and stuff like that it's a lot, it's a less of a bitter pill to swallow so it's like it's practical tips but it's also like some of the big questions like if you're a director of a certain age how far is the toilets from the monitors because there's a thing there's a thing in production called the walk of shame because the director is the only one who can't really leave the set and when you go for a piss the whole production stops so you have the light you're the most expensive you have the most expensive piss you can have it could be like a five grand piss everyone's just like all right he's fucked off we can't do anything now what do you reckon has been your most expensive piss?

1:41:15I hate to think there's probably one on the Meg which is like 25 grand and it's like I almost thought I'd go to production and go look I'll wear a diaper but I want the money but yeah it's the stories behind the stories that's what I'm trying to get in my my how to book and you're selling these fanzines on an extensive tour you're about to start next week yeah and we're giving them away on the tour as well for quick we're doing like q and a's but no one ever asks any questions so you've got to do cash for questions so you learn this very early on and used to throw t-shirts out into the audience but you know obviously the cinema's collapsed so it's now as fanzines so yeah it's starting next first day of the tour you're going everywhere right Newcastle, Manchester Glasgow, Edinburgh Liverpool, yes Birmingham, yes and Cardiff all sorts of places we're stopping you guys, thank you so much thank you look at that, three seconds

1:42:27Ben Wheatley everybody and Beth Webb

1:42:38All right, please welcome to interview our next group of guests. Group of guests, what? Ben Travis!

1:42:54Hello. Interviewers Poison Ben, I'll stand over here so you can sit down there, because there's three of them. What? That's right. Please welcome the surviving Beatles and a friend.

1:43:10Around 28 weeks ago, a little film came out called 28 Years Later, which saw Danny Boyle and Alex Garland make a triumphant return. Triumphant return to the franchise. They began in 2002 with, hang on, check the notes, 28 Days Later. No decades long wait for a follow-up this time. Oh no, folks, because the sequel, The Bone Temple, directed by Nia DaCosta, opens here on Wednesday, January 14th. Circle it in your calendars. I know you have calendars. It stars Ralph Fiennes and Jack O 'Connell, of course, and also the terrific trio you are about to meet. They play Spike, the resourceful young hero who's in way over his head with the psychotic gang, the Jimmys.

1:43:56Jimmy Inc, a member of said group And Samson, the alpha infected Who might just be about to show some hidden depth Stop it, you filthy lot You're disgusting You sicken me Please welcome Alfie Williams, Aaron Kellyman And Chai Lewis-Purry

1:44:36shall we scooch in how are you guys doing everyone good Yeah, good thing. Great, yeah. I saw The Bone Temple this afternoon, and it's embargoed, but holy fuck. Oh my God. It is extremely intense, as anybody would expect from a 28 movie. Alfie, have you seen this film yet? Because it is a hard 18 rating. You are 15. You can legally see 28 years later. Yeah. But have you seen The Bone Temple? How does that work? Is it like if it's just within the studio, is that allowed? Have you seen it? Yeah, I have. Okay, that's good for the interview. Sadly, I can't see it at the premiere of the film.

1:45:28But I got a private screen in at the Sony offices, but don't tell anyone that, because they'll get in trouble. It's between us and everybody listening to this. Nobody mention it. It's fine. All of you, what was your reaction seeing the film? Because as I said, holy fuck. I watched it with clothes on. That must have been an experience.

1:45:57That's your only reaction? That's my answer, yeah. I was so clothed the whole time. I felt like ripping my shirt off at one point because it was so great. What was it like? Because there's crazy stuff happening in these movies you've got infected running around everywhere you have insane amounts of gore no spoilers there is a bone temple as you have seen in the movie the bone temple um yeah what is it like going from being on set with that and then seeing it on screen it must be a different experience i mean i think anytime you work on something and you get to see the final product you're just you're a fan you get to be a fan and watch it because you don't know how it's going to turn out and i think i can confidently say that and speak for everybody that it was mind-blowing to see the the composition of this this beautiful film that we'd all worked really hard on in the cold naked not me that's going to factor into every answer just i was naked yeah um and so what was that shift for then from 28 to the bone temple because you shot the films back to back danny boyle directed 28 years later nia da costa directed the bone temple they're quite like distinct films from each other um alfie let's start with you because spike was the heart of that first film a lot of intense stuff going on but even by comparison to 28 years later this boy is going through it in the Bone Temple.

1:47:29It's a tough film. How did Nia guide you through that shift and everything you had to do was Spike? Well, it was weird. You know, working with Danny, it's obviously going to be crazy. But there's differences, you know. Nia gave it a lot more time to experiment with different different stuff, you know? And Danny, he knew what he wanted. He, after we finished the scene, I could be like, Danny, I could do this better, and he'd be like, nah, we've got it. Okay. That's confidence. And this is your first film as well, like, the 28 years later ones. Yeah. And, Chai, for you, there's a lot of we're not going to do sports.

1:48:16Nudity. There's a lot of nudity. You're naked, as we have discussed. But there's a lot of evolution for samson in this film uh the samson that we saw in 28 years later is there but there are other sides to samson we maybe see through the course of the film what was that like kind of getting to play around with the character a bit more and again working with nia as part of that um well yeah samson has become a very layered character in the bone temple and it's there's a lot more than just head ripping which is great to do i mean it's pretty cool pretty cool effect um but samson has a depth to him that i think is going to be quite surprising to the audiences it it was um a pleasure to read the second script and know that that's where it was going did you get both scripts together or was it like i did indeed and did you like rip through them one after the other on one?

1:49:18Rip, I like that. That was good. Yeah. Well done. I did. I read them back to back because I was still trying to find who he was. And I didn't really find the essence of Samson until I was naked. As previously mentioned. We'll get it. Erin, I definitely want to know the answer to this for you of the difference working with with Danny and working with Nia because I spoke to Nia about the film for Empire magazine and she talked about like casting the jimmies with Danny Boyle because they're a big part of the bone temple but Danny was like I have a plan for the jimmies and I'm thinking backflips and Nia DaCosta was like backflips so your entrance at the end of 28 years later is such a head spinner it's incredible um but it was extremely acrobatic and then in this film you get to do some real like character work as jimmy inc what was what was the danny side of that with the backflips and the craziness and what was the near side of it with really getting into the character of who jimmy inc is yeah i mean i think with danny's film it was like obviously a lot of fun i didn't have to do that much other than flip once um and so it's it's kind of like you can't really compare the two i don't feel i think i wish i had more time on danny's film i'd love to work with him again um but yeah no like alf said nia gives so much time and is so patient and considerate um it genuinely feels like we've got all of the time in the world and we never did but it felt like that which do you remember that time when um we had that what that scene to do at the very end i'm not going to spoil it but uh he took it off and then and then we could basically we couldn't get the scene done because we kept laughing every take and nia had to sit we're down and she said uh right guys you can't laugh on this one otherwise we're not going to get the take that was the only time that we felt that the pressure from nia but she was like we were laughing and because the shot is just like am i allowed it's just from this is the end of you guys shooting and not the end of the film no no it's just it's just like your production yeah but there's like a scene in the film where me and Alfie are walking and we're like this because we're laughing but because it's not on our face we thought we were fine and she was like we can see your shoulders moving up so you can see that shot in the film and be like there's a little bit of shoulder wobbling that's great it's but it's it's like the camera's on with box as well but like on the other side we're just like um you said uh backstage you guys did like a couple of weeks on the Bone Temple set, which is like an incredible set.

1:52:07Just like an amazing construction. It looks so striking in the film. You guys got to be there in real life. Were there times you were just like, you're just hanging around the Bone Temple. It's lunchtime. Let's eat lunch in the Bone Temple. Was there downtime where you were like just surrounded by those columns of skulls and sternums and everything? Well, Alfie wasn't allowed on set for like any, He had like, you had hours, right, that you were allowed to be on set. So anytime that we weren't like on Alfie, it was like, Alfie, get off the set, get off the set. We're running up time. But no, it was too, there's too much fire to eat in there.

1:52:44Like we, it was like a hazard, I think. They were just like, get off. It better be cool to eat up with like the skulls. Have all your food in there and just. I used to nap in Kelson's bunker. Did you actually? No. It looks cozy, man. It looks great. Yeah, yeah, it was great fun. And he has a good record collection down there as well. Let's talk about that a little bit. Was this quite like a musical set? Because did you have music blasting around the Bone Temple? Is Nia a director who has like music on set? What was the vibe? A lot of the... No, there's one Jimmy in particular. His name's Garzy.

1:53:25And he loved TikTok. And so we made a lot of TikTok videos to whatever was trending at the time. I think it was Charlie XCX. So that was playing over and over and over again. The Jimmies had a brat summer. Is that what you're saying? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's mental. Almost quit. Please tell me those are going to see the light of day. Absolutely, categorically not. I need to see Sir Lord Jimmy Crystal doing the apple dance. We did a trend, didn't we? Even though we knew that when the film came out, that trend would be dead. what it was you'll say it we're posting it anyway yeah that's what it was

1:54:09you not wanting to say it makes everyone want to know it ten times more yeah I would love to see the jimmies in full jimmy regalia yeah doing the apple dance doing party for you would be an incredible thing for you guys together like spike is in with the jimmies in this film it's a very dangerous place for him to be but also within that there is like an additional sort of kinship between spike and jimmy inc how did you guys you know form that bond on set together um to be able to bolster that relationship on screen well the first day of rehearsals um i was quite nervous were you 13 or 14 at the time 13.

1:54:5513. Right. I'm nervous because I'm like 25. I don't know how I'm going to connect with a 13 year old boy who thinks I'm not cool. Um, and I didn't know, I didn't know how to bridge that gap. And then the first thing, like one of the first things Arfi said to me, I don't even know if you remember this, but he was like, so I feel like our characters have a real sibling relationship. And I really want to explore that with you. And I was like, what the fuck? Where did you find this 13 year old yeah why are you 50 years old um which to be fair feels like a very big sister reaction to that yeah and i think we just had that immediately it felt like yeah sibling vibes yeah i mean this guy is it's the nicest guy you could ever work with on set you know and what's funny is you get chased by him throughout the full film he's trying to kill you but offset that we play FIFA and it's crazy.

1:55:53Clothed.

1:55:58Just making sure you understand.

1:56:03To be fair, to be in good spirits in the Northeast, as you have said, largely naked, it must be hard to stay in a good mood. Never. No, no, no. Let me tell you why. Because I get to do what I love and I get to do it with people that love what they're doing And I'm just so privileged be naked and rip spines Not that bit you get don't be weird

1:56:30But I am a very privileged man and I am living a dream that many would love to live So what on earth have I got to be miserable or unhappy about we made a fantastic couple of movies didn't we and I'm really proud of you. I mean, come on, these guys are unbelievable. I'm really proud of you. Really, really proud of you.

1:56:57Now, I guess we're going to wrap up in just a second, but are you guys horror fans? Are you like horror guys? What kind of a question is that to ask me? I love horror. What's your favorite horror movie? The Thing. Sam? John Carpenter's the thing my man there is some gore in the bone temple that I think can stand severed head to severed head with some of the gore in the thing which is no mean feat I'm very pleased with that comment you did it I'm very proud of that thank you Erin you pulled a face when I said are you horror guys yeah girl no Listen, I don't mess with all of that So then what was it like Was it like watching 28 and The Bone Temple?

1:57:47Is it different having Been in it or is it still like, oh my god Holy fuck Well actually 28 years later I'd had the script but obviously I wasn't On the set really so That was all like a real surprise And I really Enjoyed it and didn't like feel Like I enjoyed the thrill Of it where usually I'm like just watching it like this and I'm not having a good time and I just want to go home. And this was like the first horror movie that I watched and I was like, oh, this is fucking fantastic. I'm enjoying myself. Well, you are correct. Our time is up, but the film is fucking fantastic. You can go and see it on Wednesday, maybe like this, maybe like this.

1:58:26Thank you so much, guys. Thank you. Thank you. You guys rock, man.

1:58:49I'll be Williams, Aaron Kellerman and Jai Lewis Parry everybody and of course Ben Travis

1:59:01the nicest serial killer in the business all right for our final guest tonight the headline act if you will Headline acts, in my opinion, deserve a bit of backup in the interviewing chair. Please welcome Helen O' O 'Hara and James Dyer.

1:59:30Would anyone like a microphone? We have one more You can pitch in Has anyone heard Of a little film Called Avengers Doomsday I hadn't But there were some trailers for it recently that appeared in cinemas with Avatar Fire and Ash and then online, I was quite taken by them. Someone called Steve Rogers. Don't know what it's about, but sounded good to me. Who am I kidding? I fucking loved it. Thor being all serious and Thor-y. The X-Men. Cyclops with his laser blasts. And today's Shredder, which I haven't seen yet. Extraordinary stuff. If only we had someone who could shed some light on those trailers.

2:00:23Luckily, we do. Will you please welcome the co-director of Captain America, the Winter Soldier, Captain America, Civil War, Avengers Infinity War, Avengers Endgame, and now, Avengers Doomsday, Anthony Russo!

2:01:04He was just passing by. I thought he would drop in. But that's not all, folks. Hopefully, hopefully, owing to the power of modern technology, we can be joined live now from Los Angeles. I really hope this fucking works. From Los Angeles via Zoom. Other things are available. The other co-director of The Winter Soldier, Civil War, Infinity War, Endgame, and Doomsday. Please be there, Joe Russo! Joe Russo! Yay! Yay! Yay! Yay! Yay! Yay! Modern technology. Amazing. Whoa, dazzling, isn't it? I genuinely didn't think that was going to work. So we are off to a good start. Because obviously we're on Zoom, so we might have audio issues.

2:01:59I don't know, but Joe, are you okay? Hello, how are you? Yeah, can you hear me? 1, 2, 3, 4. Ah. 1, 2, 3, 4, fantastic. Anthony, you good as well? 1, 2, 3, 4. 1, 2, 3, 4. which is the number of movies you had directed in the MCU before Doomsday thanks for setting it up man obviously you guys have joined us here and this isn't my first rodeo with the Russos when it comes to a big MCU movie that's coming out in about a year or so so I know you can't say shit about anything at this point in time so get ready for the most boring interview ever. This is a real challenge. Anthony, we're going to start with you.

2:02:45Nice shoes. Where did you get them? Here in London. I don't remember. Whereabouts? You don't remember? No, I don't remember. Okay. We can probably aim a little higher than that. Okay. I was going to ask Joe to hold his shoes up. You see, I'm just denying everything. Everything is vague. I won't even tell you where I got my shoes. All right. Joe, where did you get those shoes? Also wearing shoes. Oh my God. Were they bought in London? London too. There's a great store I love called Leventy. Do you remember where? Yeah. Yeah. It's a store called Leventy. Okay. Was Chris Evans with you? He was nuts.

2:03:21Okay. Oh, I see what you did there. Yeah. Very crafty. It's good. Helen, you have a go trying to crack these nuts. Oh no, I did write down some questions that really might get an answer. Oh. Yeah. Like at any point in Doomsday, does a person eat anything? I don't think there's any eating on camera. No, okay. At any point in doomsday, does any person get into or out of a vehicle? No. No. What? Yes. Oh, my God. Confirmed. Huge scoop. That noise you heard is the internet just breaking. That's amazing. James? Oh, so many questions. Do you know what? I'm going to ask a question that I think everyone wants to know the answer to, and it's about aspect ratios.

2:04:07So let's talk about that. 2025 was apparently the biggest year for IMAX. Did you know that? It was. It was. It was like 1.25 billion for IMAX. But I discovered a thing over Christmas, which I hadn't known until now, which is that I think starting with Civil War, but certainly Infinity War and Endgame, they are formatted for IMAX on Disney+. This is not an advert for Disney+. But it kind of blew my mind, because you shot in large format IMAX, didn't you? We did, yes. Right. I mean, A, what is that like? And is there any of that in Doomsday? Yeah, so what we do is we shoot on a wider chip, right?

2:04:44So the chip is actually formatted. It's a large format chip. So you're just retaining a lot more information because we're going to show it on a giant IMAX screen. You want that level of quality in the chip. The cameras, it used to be that you had these giant IMAX cameras. But when we did Infinity War and Endgame, It was the first time that there was a new sleeker digital model that we could use. I don't know if Nolan still uses the film ones that are, you know, like the size of a compact car. Or a flying car. Yeah, we use the more efficient streamlined digital cameras. Yeah, but it is challenging because, you know, the movie, while we do release in that IMAX format, and it even translates downstream, we're also releasing in 2, 3, 4 screen aspect ratio in most theaters.

2:05:42So it's a challenge to shoot in both of those formats because they're quite different. You want to make sure the audience has the best experience wherever they go. Yeah, yeah. Because you ask filmmakers, that's a decision that you kind of have to make downstream, isn't it? Because certain filmmakers, they'll release an IMAX, but they don't want that on necessarily the home ends because it's a different way of consuming the film. It's a different experience. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, look, again, we really hatecraft the movie for both formats because we have to. Because we know there's some people that will never see the IMAX format.

2:06:17There's some people that will never see the 235 format. So it's just, you just have to make it the best experience in both formats. And did the last scene of Doomsday look really good in that format? It looked incredible. And if so, in what way? One, two, three, four. See, James, you should have asked what happened in the last scene of Doomsday. My God, but we don't want to know that. We don't want to know that. Not yet, anyway. But this year, 2026, I believe. I checked my calendar. It is 2026. It's the 10th anniversary of Captain America Civil War. Now, I mean, that film is incredible as well.

2:06:57Is that a film that you guys look back on fondly? You got to do your big splash panel fight at the airport. Was that fight a pain in the neck to shoot? Anthony, we'll start with you. It was intense. That movie, unlike Doomsday, which we shot here in London, we shot Civil War in Atlanta. And that scene was shot in the summer, that tarmac scene. And it was hot. And we had those actors are in costumes, they're running full speed, they're fighting. that was really intense and difficult to shoot, especially because of the weather conditions. Joe and I always remember this moment. We had Paul Bettany as Vision up on a wire and it was, you know, it's not easy to get load somebody in and out of that.

2:07:45And he has, his costume is really intense. And there was this moment we had him up there. We keep asking him if he needs to come down. We can do more takes, more takes. Eventually, like he moved at some point and his suit had filled with so much sweat that it like, it spouted out, like a stream of sweat just spouted out of his suit. It was like, we were like, we have to take you down right now. You're going to die. And that's in the film. Joe, what are your memories of shooting that? Were you similarly sweat-filled? Yeah, I mean, it was, yeah, we shot that tarmac scene on a tarmac in Atlanta the tarmac hit 125, 130 I remember people's shoes were melting it was one of those summers, but I do remember that there was, when we shot the moment where all of the heroes ran at each other a couple of the comic book geeks on set who were, you know PAs or people in the camera department we were all gathered around the monitor I remember turning and looking and like three or four of them were crying because it was this moment from their childhood that they always wanted to see, and now here they were.

2:08:57I'm sure it was the heat. It was like a heat exhaustion. But it was a great moment for being a comic book fan to be able to be there and execute that moment and realize these dreams from our childhood. It's funny that it's the 10th anniversary and we're sitting here having an early doomsday conversation with you guys. because that was kind of like our that movie was, even though it was a Captain America film, of course that was our segue into like the Avengers narrative, you know, it really happened on that film, so it's funny how that lines up Was there a sense it was almost, were you aware that it was almost an addition for the Avengers movies?

2:09:41If we ace this I don't know I don't know if we thought about it necessarily like that we were just like, it was such we were very focused on the opportunity of telling the story of Civil War and what an amazing opportunity that was. We never imagined that we would have that opportunity when we were doing Winter Soldier. It sort of evolved organically through our story work with Marcus and McFeely and with Marvel afterwards. And the fact that it became possible at some point was such a miracle. And that we could introduce a new Spider-Man that we could introduce Black Panther. You know, those things were such a miracle.

2:10:24I think we were just conscious of the incredible opportunity of that. Speaking of introducing new characters brings us back to these trailers that have been out for Doomsday, these teasers, I guess, because you get to play with the X-Men now for the first time. Another miracle. These are actors who have been playing these roles for literally 26 years at this point. And, you know, what was it like kind of, you know, sitting down with some of them for the first time, chatting about this, getting them back? We can't we can't say anything, really. I'm kidding. I think we can talk about somebody who was in the trailer like Ian McKellen or Patrick Stewart.

2:11:05And, you know, I mean, two of the great actors on the planet, being able to work with the both of them. we've had a lot of incredible experiences throughout our careers with actors and I'll say just being able to sit across from Sir Ian on a set watching him work was probably the highlight Did you ask more geeky questions about Gandalf or like Picard? What's the breakdown? We made him start every day by saying Fly You Fools

2:11:42correct yes that is but these trailers have kind of been they're eventizing this and they are stoking stuff they're working very well in that regard like making it feel like a build-up but when you did infinity war it kind of felt almost like a if you were like when you want to get like a tv show finale as much as like a film because it's it's that cross between short form and long form storytelling. They've been almost really an unprecedented buildup to those films. Like it feels like you'd come in and this story, so much groundwork. I mean, like they were handing you like a cultural event. I was like, I mean, when you went into that, did that kind of like, that must've been a lot to deal with.

2:12:21Did that blow your mind? It did blow our minds because Joe and I are very into like the structure of what we do and the sort of the technical aspect of what we do. And we've always been very conscious throughout our careers. of looking for new ways to do things, whether it be a new way to approach narrative, a new way to sort of execute it technically, whatever the case may be. And the sort of remarkable thing with those films was like, you're right, there was never before had you had that opportunity to do big theatrical cinema, but draw upon all the energy that you can gain from sort of series storytelling over years and years and years, where you're unfolding a narrative over years, you're getting to know characters over years.

2:13:14And so that, so for the fact that we were able, and this was all unfolding as it was happening, like it was like, it was real time. It was like, some of it was by design, but some of 90 % of it was just organically how it developed over time, you know, just being, being very in the moment and figuring out what is the most you can do with this long form narrative that is starting to unfold and, and have different manifestations, uh, among different creatives and different, um, different expressions, different characters. So that was, um, we were, we were aware of, of, of that and we knew it was an incredible opportunity and it just ended up sort of being part of the magic for sure.

2:13:57I know you can't say too much about Doomsday at this point in time, but I'm really taken by the approach you have taken with these trailers. So they are, as James said, a ventized trailers. There's been one every week with Avatar, and then there's a couple of days later it's online. Can you talk about that approach, first of all? Where did that come from? This is not a traditional way to herald the coming of a movie. yeah I mean it's a two prong approach one is obviously releasing them in theaters get you know to do everything we can to help people get back into theaters and what a great place to you know to watch big eventized trailers but you know on a big screen the and then the idea look the movie is very complex there's a lot of characters in it and And there's a lot of great moments in it.

2:14:57And we thought one of the best ways to celebrate what the movie is was to give characters their own space and highlight some moments. And so that really is where we came up with the idea to do more sort of character-focused, multiple character-focused pieces. And of course, one of the characters that you focused on was Steve Rogers. Why is Steve Rogers slash Captain America the best one? Obviously, I'm very non-biased here, but you've worked with him. I noticed your earrings. You have really special earrings. Captain America earrings. What have you got on? Oh my gosh, he's in the tank for Steve Rogers.

2:15:46They know. Yeah, that's true. yeah I mean look at we have we have a special affinity with the character I mean we entered the MCU from that character's point of view so uh you know his central role to the Avengers and and the sort of narrative the larger narrative of what the MCU has been it's like that that's something that's very personal to Joe and I and you know we can't see this narrative like with without his central role in it basically you know um so yeah it's a very it's a it's a special you You know, at the end of Endgame, when we finished that movie, we really did think about it as like an end for us in terms of like storytelling.

2:16:26Like we didn't think that there was anything left for us to do. There was a part of us that always had Secret Wars. We get made one day and, you know, that was possible. But Steve Rogers, just because of the depth of the character, the soulfulness of the character, the sort of special place that he holds among the ensemble, he sort of retains that moving forward. It's fascinating with Steve because in that cast announcement you guys did a few months ago, which I think is still happening. You chairs are being added every five seconds. Most of the people we've seen in the trailers were announced at that time, bar Chris Evans, bar Steve Rogers.

2:17:17And then, bam, the first trailer for this movie, holy shit, Steve Rogers will return. Maybe I added the holy shit, but I'm pretty sure it said Steve Rogers. Language. Yes, will return in Avengers Doomsday. Can you talk about that, by leading with Steve and leading with Chris Evans a year out? He's an important character, Matt. I think he's an important character to the audience. This is long-form serialized storytelling. and

2:17:47we felt like look at everyone pays so much attention to everything now we all have so much information we're sharing information every second everybody's waiting for what's the next thing that's going to suck up pop culture oxygen for five minutes that even your trailer release and the order in which they come is all part of the fabric of the narrative now uh and the the expectation and the surprise and the um uh and the way that you know the the event of doomsday will unfold in your your life is based on how you're going to receive uh um you know pieces of narrative that that are being these little breadcrumbs are being strung out between now and time the movie comes out so we actually stopped thinking about trailers as sort of advertisements and as a potential for real narrative information because it's so pervasive now.

2:18:54It goes everywhere. So that's narrative information that you're getting. Each one of those trailers is narrative information and it's all part of a larger story. And so I would argue that Doomsday has already started for you.

2:19:14Did anyone else feel that? I felt that. I have to ask, and it's a very important question that I've been pondering for quite some time. I'd like to put it to you now. If it's about aspect ratios, Jesus Christ. What is your favorite aspect? No. Was Thanos right? Oh my God! And why is he the true hero of the Infinity Saga? I think you should answer that question I think you want to He should absolutely not He has answered that question at length across many many podcasts Okay I'm going to go look for that And it's always in the affirmative I will throw one last thing at you guys and again this is nothing to do with the plot of Avengers Doomsday it is to do with the tone of the movie because here's the great thing about this film You've given us these four bits of narrative information in these trailers.

2:20:09Again, one of which I haven't seen yet, but I read about it on the internet. And I still don't know, and this is a great thing, what this film is going to be. What it's going to feel like. But the trailers, so far, do point at a seriousness of tone. Even at a somberness of tone. The film is called Doomsday, of course. so I'm guessing it's not going to be a laugh a minute. What can you say about the tone of the movie and what we can expect? We've always said that tone is one of the things that's most personal and unique to a filmmaker in terms of what your expression is. The tone is something that's very hard to quantify and hard to say what it is or express what it is and it ends up becoming very unique.

2:21:02And I think as we've made the Marvel films specifically, you can see a very specific tone that Joe and I have worked in. And that ends up just being very personal to us in terms of what our vision for the movies are, what our taste is, what our sensibilities are. And I think ultimately you'll find that balance of tone in Doomsday. but I think your observations are correct you know it is it is you know for as much as we run at the fun in terms of what these films can be we also run at the complexity and the difficulty of what these movies can do at a narrative level and I think we've found a new level of that in Doomsday Amazing.

2:21:57Joe final word from you? Yeah, I think, Ant put it great I was just, you know, Victor Von Doom demands a certain tone

2:22:08He just shows up and demands it and you give it to him I cannot wait to see him, we haven't seen him yet but another time, another time Joe, thank you so much for joining us all the way from LA Thank you Joe Russo, Anthony Russo and his amazing shoes, everybody Thank you all Thank you so much thank you guys very much

2:22:35we have about half an hour left it's time to put the lights up and have you guys ask us questions yes we will take requests to sing Neil Diamond songs no we will not there will be no Neil Diamond I see a man on the end of the road but in the middle there's a microphone people in the balcony by the way do not feel that you're being neglected we do hate you but we will make sure at least one of you gets to ask a question. Could we just say they've just given the microphone to someone who's wearing Chris Evans' jumper from Knives Out to Helen. Please just restrain yourself. That's a fucking plant if ever I saw one.

2:23:09Who are you and how do you know her? We are both from Northern Ireland. Oh my God. We all know each other as well. What about you, wee man? What about you there now? Good to see you, Chris. How are you? I'm Chris. Let's take it out. Richardson's gets results. Absolutely. thanks very much in light of the release of Hamnet and apologies to Helen for the nature of this question and also for second guessing the fact that James probably said 10 things I hate about you he will the Mount Rushmore of Shakespeare screen adaptations I was hoping we get a Mount Rushmore I was hoping we get a Mount Rushmore I mean 10 things I hate about you is 100 % going on there and also Clueless right we can't not have oh no that's not That's Austin.

2:23:56That's Austin, yeah. My baby woke up at 6 o 'clock this morning. Ooh, ooh. Well, I mean, much ado about nothing. The Branagh version, obviously. We're not savages, yes. Also, my sister is in the audience and might shoot me if I didn't mention it. I mean, I kind of want the Branagh Henry V as well, if I'm honest. Are you Richard III fan? McKellen's Richard III? No? No. Now's the winter of our discontent. and glorious summer by the sun. We are the... We are the... Charles. Should we be cliched and say Romeo plus Juliet? Yeah. I think we should. I don't think that's a cliche. That's a crazzly. If you're like a Shakespeare purist, you're going to bulk at the changes, but it's got panache.

2:24:41It has panache. Okay, so... Okay. How are we doing this? Are we having one choice each, as we normally do on Mount Rushmore's? All right. Well, my choice is set inside. Fucking hell. 10 things I hate about you. Hellsberg? I'm not even kidding. 100 % that is my favorite. Come back to me, because I need to... I have very difficult choices to make. I will go for the Romeo plus Juliet. Okay. It's a good choice. It's very faithful. Well, it's not that faithful. It sounds faithful. It's not a traitor, but it's not a full faithful. Oh, don't even do this. Oh, my God. Why are we all here? I part with enough of this from Boyd and Kay.

2:25:19I can't have it from you as well. Ben, do not ask the people who've paid to see the show why they're all here. I don't know why I'm here. Did anyone see last night's? Holy shit, it's all going down. No, there's no... People saying no, so no spoilers. I've never seen the traitors. I've never seen the traitors. I saw half of one episode, my sister explained it to me, and it did seem like it would be good TV. It's no Destination X. No. Do you think the best bits of the traitors are probably better than anything Shakespeare? Stop it. Oh. But that's not his fault. I shouldn't have to sit between you people.

2:25:50You're monsters. Just to double check, your question was a Mount Rushmore of Traders contestants, right? I've never watched Traders. I've never watched Traders, but Alan Carr. Yes. Okay, but Shakespeare adaptations now. Okay. Oh, Shakespeare adaptations. I was thinking about this today. I was watching Paul Meskel play Will Shakespeare. And I was thinking, who are the best people to have played William Shakespeare on screen? Big and small. And it's got to be Matt Bainton in Bill. So therefore, I'm going for Bill. I know it's not technically speaking. It's not a Shakespeare adaptation. It doesn't meet the terms of the question.

2:26:26Neither is Baz Luhrmann's Robbie on Julia. No, it is. No, it kind of is. Only because they used the words.

2:26:36The words and the plot. Okay, I'll give you the words and the plot. But apart from that, it was a loose adaptation. And the characters. Apart from the characters and the story. And the setting. And the setting. Well, yeah. Shakespeare famously wrote it in Fenners Beach. Can I swap purely to enrage James? No. And say Spielberg's West Side Story. Spielberg's West Side Story. Oh, yes. Good shit. Fuck off. Then I'll go for the other West Side Story. Fuck it. Let's hem him in. We'll get him with a pincer movement. Clever girl. You're sapping my will to live. Much like that film. Oh, you're a fool. good movie so are you saying we've got I'm going West Side Story and he's going he's going West Side Story and he's going 10 things I hate about you he's going 10 things I hate about you I'll give you 10 things I hate about you are you going to go for Baz Luhrmann's loose adaptation of Romeo and Hulia no obviously I'm not that fucking plan that's left me with all of the Shakespeare adaptations to choose from this seems unfair we haven't even mentioned Macbeth And there's at least two of those in recent years even.

2:27:52And then I have a bunch of Hamlets, proper Hamlets to talk about. And Henry V, which is fucking incredible. Someone shouted out something? No. No, the Lion King can get in the bin. That one is not on my list. The Lion King can not get in the bin. The Lion King can absolutely get in the bin. If we went Lion King, we would have a Mount Rushmore of Shakespeare adaptations that aren't actually Shakespeare adaptations. And I think that's very on-brand for us. Helen, please do Lion King. No, I refuse. I'm going to have to go Much Ado About Nothing because I love it most. But I just want it on the record that I feel bad for, like, Laurence Olivier and stuff.

2:28:35Oh, fuck him. He's dead. Who's the sexiest in that film? Oh. I mean Emma Thompson That is the correct answer It's probably Denzel Denzel? Not Robert Sean Leonard? Keanu? I mean yes Keanu I know where the bastard sleeps I know that's Dracula But still I don't know any lines from Much Ado About Nothing I don't think he's the best I actually think Bran is pretty sexy in that film Wow If I'm honest Okay Red alert Okay Well I think we successfully answered that And all your impending questions So thanks for coming everybody Ben You get to choose someone now Maybe Should we go balcony? Yeah I'll go balcony Who on the balcony has a question?

2:29:27Is there anyone on the balcony with a microphone? I can just seem like a hand up to my left I don't know if we have a Do we have a microphone on the balcony? Do we have a microphone on the balcony? You might have to shout And then we'll repeat it on mic Are you a gifted mime? Project Yeah you Sadly this guy in the balcony didn't have a microphone But he asked a very good question About which British game show Slash quiz show Would make a great movie A la Slumdog Millionaire Which obviously adapted Who wants to be a millionaire? Here we go back to the show Oh okay I love a game show so much The Wheel Oh my god what did we do before The Wheel The Hit List The Hit List what's The Hit List The Hit List is a music quiz.

2:30:11They play like two seconds. Oh, I've seen this. Yeah, yeah, yeah. One of the people who presents The Hit List also works for Bauer Media. And I sometimes see them in the lift and I'm always like, do I say I really like The Hit List? Why are they still working for Bauer Media when they presumably got all that Hit List cash? Because they know about music for The Hit List because they're on the radio. Oh. Radio person. I see. Very clever. Oh, do you do The Chase? The thrill of the chase is undeniable. But what would it be? What would the story be? Mark Labatt chasing people down and yelling questions at them.

2:30:46Who chasing people down? Mark Labatt, the beast. Oh, the beast. Beast Rabanne? I don't understand. I mean, now I'm interested. I wasn't listening. I am now. Yeah. The beast Rabanne is doing a quiz show? Yeah, sort of. This is incredible. If spice was like just money. Right. Okay, I'm with you. I'm following. He wants all of it. and he doesn't want, if the contestant is Paul Atreides he doesn't want Paul Atreides to have the spice, he doesn't want the contestant at the moment understood, this is the plot of Dune part 1, carry on and and so, Paul Atreides has to successfully evade the Beast Rabanne form an alliance with the Fremen maybe form an alliance with who are some other people in Dune the Sardau Do not say those words in front of him.

2:31:38The Bene Gesserit. The Bene Gesserit. I need a fourth. A sandworm. A sandworm. And then Paul Atreides, the Bene Gesserit, the sandworm, and who else did I say? The Fremen. The Fremen, yeah. They all have to team up together to evade the beast to win all the spice. The Sanal Gaib. That is a real quiz I try to write. I mean, does the bake-off count? Can I have bake-off? Helen. I mean, game show. It was game show was the phrase. Wasn't it game show? Was it game show or quiz show? Yeah, he said game show. Game show? Okay, well, I mean, University Challenge has already been done as starter for 10. That's true.

2:32:26So master... Do I get a point for that? Hewitt, Empire Podcast. Starter for 10? What about Christopher Nolan doing Only Connect and nobody understands it? But if you say you understand it, you look really fucking smart. That's a good idea, actually. I don't understand that, but it sounds funny. James, this is all TV. I literally haven't watched a quiz show since 321 with Dusty Bin. I'm not even fucking kidding you. So is Dusty Bin your choice? Yeah. With Star Wars? So Dusty Bin is R222? Yeah, basically that. Yeah. I was on a quiz show once. Were you? Yeah. University Challenge? No. Ohara, Empire Podcast.

2:33:02I was on a kids quiz show called I Spy when I was on. But Helen, you're over 30. You shouldn't have been on that show. No, it wasn't recent. Oh. Yeah. What did you spy with your little eye? Sorry? What did you spy with your little eye? I don't know. We had to solve puzzles and stuff to get, like, open a safe. Was it the Krypton Factor? Were you on the Krypton Factor? No, but it was like that, but for kids. And I sent my teammate to get slimed because I didn't want to be. That tracks so much. Oh, God. I think, yeah, I love quiz shows. I fucking love a quiz show. I've thought about going on the 1 % Club.

2:33:42I got through quite far through a catchphrase application once, partly because... Sorry, that's... The end of that sentence was so disappointing. I thought you... Like, we know someone, Kat Brown, formerly of this parish, has actually been on Only Connect and fucking won an episode, right? Or lost in episode one or two. Anyway. I almost applied. Yeah, and you almost applied for catchphrase. Were you distracted by Mr. Chips? What's he doing there in the corner? He's not applying for catchphrase. That's what he's doing. You can see what you see. I don't know. If it's a B and it'll be right back.

2:34:18It's be right back. It's not that hard. But also, if you don't win catchphrase, you still keep the money. So a lot of other... I'm sorry, what? Yeah. How is this a quiz? You like, everybody's trying to win their money. Oh my God, I've just remembered Only Connect. Oh my God. Are you okay, Ben? Are you okay? This person has unlocked something in me with this question.

2:34:47What have you remembered? What have you remembered? Do you remember something about Only Connect? Can you see the Victoria Carl Mitchell in the room? Do you know what? I was not even thinking Only Connect. I was thinking the complete opposite end of the quiz scale. Tipping points. Oh, tipping point. Now we're talking. Tipping point, James, is like those arcade games you would go to by the seaside when you were a kid and you put a coin in. Yes. And the coin filters down. And the little things move about as a horse. They've turned this into a quiz show. Jesus Christ. And it's phenomenally successful.

2:35:20Outstanding. And you start watching and you think, what the fuck is this shit? And then you haven't eaten for four days because you're binging it. And everyone you know and love has died. And you don't care because you're just watching Tipping Point. And sometimes it's just 30 minutes of the best ever finales of Tipping Point. It's just...

2:35:40All right. We lead very different lives. We're so cool. James, choose someone to ask a question. Spider-Man. I'm going straight to Spider-Man. Spider-Man. Spider-Man. Spider-Man. Evening. I was hoping that mine could get picked after his because a year ago I sat pretty much there and said how much I hate Mount Rushmore questions. You and me both. So I came up with an anti-Mount Rushmore question, which, depending on which segment of the podcast this appears in, could be quite awkward. Right. So imagine a Mount Rushmore with five director's heads. James Cameron. You sicko. John McTiernan beloved goat boy Sam Raimi yeah Peter Jackson keep going I'm nearly there

2:36:36and the Russo brothers well that's technically they have six heads then James comes along Thanos style and you have to get rid of one Sam Raimi and It would be Sam Raimi for me as well. Next question. Yeah, it's Sam Raimi for me as well. I'm sorry. When you get rid of them, all of their projects disappear. Still Sam Raimi. I refuse to engage with this question. You are a demon. Please leave. Oh, there's Spider-Man. I did like Spider-Man. Spider-Man. There are other Spider-Man films available. Yeah, but without Spider-Man, would the rest have happened? I don't think we're altering the timeline.

2:37:15We are. We are. He just said, We're getting rid of all of their projects. We're getting rid of them, but I like to think it's not going to happen. No, their projects are going to... What are the choices again? Cameron? James Cameron. John McTeeran. Why the fuck have you put John McTeeran in it? Leave fucking John McTeeran alone. He's not... Honestly. ...decide whether Freddy's starting to die. No. Fuck off. No. We've already murdered Sam Raimi. This... Have you ever seen the film? Then this guy who no longer had a microphone by this point said something about we had to consider the fact that if we chose, say, Peter Jackson, it would mean there would be no more Lord of the Rings.

2:37:52Lord of the Rings would disappear. Ooh. Yeah, that's not happening. It's not even a question. Oh no, but I can't lose Meet the Feebles. I cannot lose Meet the Feebles. I can't lose Braindead. I can't lose Bad Taste. That's fine. So, is my memory of watching this film gone? Every show is literally wiped from existence. It never has existed. you never have seen it and it ceases to be. Then that wouldn't matter to me. Yeah. You'd never remember it. You would know. You would know. I would know. The ripples. If you had never seen Evil Dead you'd feel it in your heart. I would feel it. It would be ungroovy.

2:38:34James has got rid of Sam Raimi but then I have read the Necronomicon and brought Sam Raimi into existence and as a sacrifice I have killed John McTiernan. Oh my God. I said what I said. Oh, no. That's not okay. Kanda. This is an impossible question. I'm on Raimi as well. Yeah, I mean. What the fuck? It's the obvious choice. It's not the obvious choice. The obvious choice.

2:39:07And this is awkward. Given what's on the cover of the next issue of Empire. It's Peter Jackson. Yeah, that's right. I'd lose a little of the rings in a heartbeat. Get gone, King Kong. You're out of here. Yeah, Peter Jackson. I would lose Peter Jackson. You shall not pass. I'm afraid it did pass. Yeah, I would have to, reluctantly, because I love Peter Jackson's earlier gory films, but I would... Sorry, mate, it's gone. I think we have to kill him, James. I think we do. For Frodo. Yeah, for Frodo. No. For Ash. For Sam. For the Deadites. No, wait, they're the bad guys. All right, that's the worst question I've ever heard.

2:39:54I... No. No. Have you ever heard? Well. If this ends with you saying June for a long time, that was... Diabolical. Have you ever seen the film Sophie's Choice? That was like that, only that meant something. Oh, no. Oh. That's too soon, Chris. Too soon. Too soon. Too soon. All right. Your turn. My turn? All right. Put your hands up. Yes, please. Right here. Front row. The mic is coming. The mic is on its way. What? Look, in this company, I have to be clear on that. Hello. As we've been talking about future Avengers coming up. Have we? Yes, we have. We will be. What do you think Marvel do after Secret Wars?

2:40:53Implode. They become a singularity. I think they'll probably reboot, which I wouldn't particularly want to see, but it feels like Secret Wars is that point, right? It feels like that. Although Endgame also felt like it might be that. Is it not? I feel like it's some kind of mutant future. Yeah. Is what I feel. Oh, I think definitely we can expect mutants. But that gives you the opportunity to not so much reboot as pivot. Pivot. Pivot. And take a different tack while still staying in the same arena. And actually, that's exciting to me. Because it's the same, but also different enough that it feels fresh.

2:41:34Yeah. I fully imagine it will be like the mutant saga next. if we're thinking about the overarching, because especially Secret Wars and Doomsday gives you the chance to bring in the old guys, give them a big old farewell, reset things to an extent. You're saying kill a bunch of them off. That's what you're saying. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. I mean, they've had a good long run. And then, you know, whether they've already established in the MCU, there is currently some mutation starting to happen. We already have a couple of mutants confirmed in the MCU, but they could use the events of Doomsday and Secret Wars as like a major changing point to be like, yes, more mutants and go mutant saga.

2:42:17Go proper crossover. Benoit Blanc. You know what I'm talking about, Ben. You wouldn't know which member of the MCU cast. Murder. Yeah. Because they're all in the MCU. They're all in the MCU. We bring Benoit Blanc into the MCU. Checkmate. Is it a full Marvel whodunit yet? I feel like this could be a thing. I do want to spoil things for Wake Up Dead, man, but we're not far off. True. We're not far off. All right. That was a good question. You've rescued it after that horrible question from that bad man. That bad man who wants me to erase meat to feebles. Helen, we've got 10 minutes left. I think we can get three more questions in.

2:42:59Go. Okay. There's a person with a mic near a person with his hand up, so I'm going to suggest that we get those two together. hello um i'm hopefully i'm right in saying this but the oscars have introduced two new categories this year which i think is best stunt and casting i just wondered what category you'd like to see added well stunt was the big one that i think it has been missing for way too long their their line was always oh we're worried it will encourage people to do dangerous things like jackass doesn't exist and that urge isn't already out there. By the way, Jackass 5 coming this summer, yes.

2:43:36But also, that's very simply solved by just making safety precautions, one of the criteria for judging. So it always seemed a bit bullshit. I think they worry too much about the length of the awards ceremony and do mad things to avoid making it longer, like ignoring stunts for too long. Anyway, in terms of what should be added... Best performance capture. I thought about it but I then wondered at what point you look at Avatar, it's just fucking acting at what point you just make them the Academy will never ever recognize the performances and I always feel like ghettoizing it almost diminishes it slightly well we've seen that with animation where they've tried to create the best animated movies simply to avoid animated movies but this is to make sure these people get the recognition that they deserve because they'll never get it otherwise they'll never get it otherwise also that could be a category where you nominate the physical actor, but also the people.

2:44:33That performance is in large part also a digital performance. There is absolutely the physical performance that the person has given, but all the animation on top of that is performance. Oh my God, you just said nominate and I had a thought about a 15 to 1 movie. That would be amazing. Brad Pitt is William G. Stewart. I would be all over that like a rash. All right. My category would be Best film under 90 minutes Yeah!

2:45:05And the winner would be a film we didn't talk about Peter Hougar's Day Yes, 75 minutes I cannot recommend it highly enough Go and watch it 25 times if you can Jimbo Yes, the gentleman with the fulsome beard The fulsome beard? Oh, I knew exactly who you meant as well That is a magnificent beard, sir Thanks you're giving me a cough um james um in the um spoiler special podcast for fire and ash yes you said that you were at one point so immersed in the film that actually you found you couldn't critique it at all yeah and i suppose i guess actually for all four of you um i wondered if being movie critics sometimes actually ruins your enjoyment of a film like do you ever watch a film and think, fuck, I wish I didn't actually have to review this because I've enjoyed the experience so much.

2:45:59This is a genuine point. This is why I don't like reviewing films. But generally, I can 100 % watch a film and enjoy it as I always have done. Not everyone watches films. I'm very much one for I project myself into a film. I live the film. I feel the emotions. I'm in that world. And when I come out of a film, sometimes I literally need a little while to decompress to kind of come back to reality. Whereas some film critics, and we've discussed this in the office, we almost, there's the distinction between film geeks and film buffs, like some people are sitting there and thinking, oh that's a lovely shot, the framing there is extraordinary, and I can see what they've done there with the filters, none of that, I am just on Pandora, you know, I'm with the Na 'vi, all that sort of stuff, but when you have to write a review, when you have been tasked with reviewing the film, it is not fun anymore, because you know, you may have to take notes, but even if you don't take notes.

2:46:48You have to think about this stuff. And genuinely, it kind of ruins the film for me a little bit. Now, it's not the same as reviewing on the podcast, but this is when you have to literally write the Empire review. So this is why whenever John Nugent asks me to review something, I tell him to get fucked.

2:47:06Professionalism. We have it. I wrote the review for Avatar, Fire and Ash. And it was a hard one because it is so much movie. It's three and a quarter hours. And I felt kind of dazed coming out of the film. Cause as you say, it's extremely immersive. You feel like you have been on Pandora for over three hours. And, uh, you know, I do think more could have happened in that film. And yet at the same time, a lot happens and trying to just like, get your head straight on on everything that went down and how you feel about it and what that experience was it was the same with a lot of the like peak marvel films yes i came out of infinity war on cloud nine but i don't think i could have given you like a really solid beat by beat critique and so the avatar one was hard because i saw it and then the next day i wrote the review there was not a chance to see it again sometimes a second viewing really like you know what happens in the film and so you can really go like okay is the first act too long is it well paced does this work oh i see that thing now seems inevitable that happens at the end because you were setting up from here but i couldn't appreciate that at the time um so it really does change sometimes when it's a really big film or a really long film it is hard to know exactly what you think coming out especially when that is going to be in print in the magazine online forever when people on facebook comments are going to yell at you about it forever it's it's tricky yeah it is i feel like i go on vibes um like i just watch the like even when i've been watching things like uh the star trade i did i do force awakens i think i did force awakens and then the two russo avengers and i had a very short space of time to write those reviews and i did take notes in all of those films, even though I was super excited as well.

2:49:00But I was kind of taking notes without taking my eyes off the screen. They're illegible. And when I come to write the review anyway, it's kind of a vibe and I'm sort of then just trying to justify the vibe, if that makes sense. So I'm like going, well, was it the cinematography that was good or bad or indifferent? Was it the performances that were good or bad or indifferent? Why am I feeling the way I'm feeling? But I kind of leave that until afterwards and just try and be in it when I'm watching it. And you don't review. I don't tell John Newsom to fuck off. I just fake my own death and then change my identity and move from port to port and he will never find me.

2:49:39So there we go. We have less than three minutes left. Ben, choose someone for the last question and we have to race through it. Have you got any of the balcony ones? That person at the top of the balcony. Oh, there is a microphone up there. There's a microphone. The man is coming to you. Oh, here it comes. Where were you 20 minutes ago? He was probably there and we didn't see him. I apologise. Hiya. I'm really into the ACOTAR books I don't know if you guys have read Helen maybe have read I'm aware yes do you have any inside knowledge absolute filth is there are they going to be released as a movie or a series perhaps it's called porn you can say it yeah and is that going to be heavily affected by AI do you feel that's going to affect the whole what are these what's it Thorns and Roses yes wow that was really quick I mean, I've heard people say that that's what it's called.

2:50:30What are these? They're spicy books. It's known as fairy porn. Ah, there you go, fairy porn. Or dragon smut, depending on... Well, yes, this is more the fairy end of the dragon spectrum. Fairy to dragon spectrum. I haven't heard anything. The last I did hear was I think there was a TV show in some kind of stage of development. But I think that it is... romance is still seen as part more of the romance genre than the fantasy genre from a marketing and studio point of view and uh studios are historically loath to recognize women as an audience and romance is the most women-coded genre i'm on porn hub is that anything um it's uh it's thorn hub oh yeah it would be uh it's they are spicy books i mean especially the one i've heard I've heard people say they are.

2:51:22Uh-huh. Uh-huh. The one with his best friend and her sister? Anywho, but I think the problem is also going to be I think heated rivalry might change things. I think that might speed things up genuinely because that's been a huge success on TV and it's been a huge success in the kind of the amount of buzz it's created and I think that'll be interesting to see how that changes things going forward. I know nothing about this. I'm on a Guardian website story about this and it's kind of the past notes thing says give me some key fairy porn titles there's Sarah J. Mass's A Court of Thorns and Roses series in which a girl kills a wolf and then a fairy demands a sexy punishment I need to see this movie so badly I wish there was a countdown clock to this right now you would be appalled Chris I'd be so appalled I'd be waving my fist is that what they call it okay I'd be like oh this film down with this movie oh god I love that that is the note upon when we end this show there is 10 seconds on the countdown it still feels like too long 14 years 700 episodes we end on a masturbation gag you wouldn't have it any other way as we began

2:52:44alright because that is it folks episode 700 we'll be back next week it's not the end of the show, we are back next week with more film related fun, we've got some incredible guests Chai Lewis Parry is on next week's show again, but that's fine because if you've seen the size of him, I'm not saying no he can be on every single week as far as I'm concerned another one Chai? sure, absolutely, please have a seat please, oh god so let's thank our guests shall we, for this evening? this has been amazing so they were of course, Corn Hardy, Daphne Key Alfie Williams, Aaron Kellyman, Bart Layton Chai Lewis Parry, Ben Wheatley and the Russo brothers Anthony Russo and Joe Russo You know, I think we really got to the nub of what Avengers Doomsday is about from the mouth They spilled the beans We know there's going to be a vehicle in it now And someone gets into it or out of it but no one eats on screen so that's very, very important So, don't make the obvious joke So I also want to thank Becca, Sally, Chris, Dan, Eliana, and the entire team here at King's Place.

2:53:56Thank you so much, guys. You've been amazing. Thank Alex and Beth for interviewing earlier on as well. Joe Moran and Marco for all the photography you're going to see later on backstage. It was amazing. And, of course, the entire Empire team, many of whom are here, many of whom are no longer with us. They're all okay. They're all alive. They just couldn't be here tonight. And of course, thanks to you guys for showing up in such numbers year after year and supporting the show. Can we count on you for the 15th anniversary? Five people said yes. Plans have begun already for the 15th anniversary. And of course, it is thanks and goodbye to my three colleagues of such lethal cunning.

2:54:39I tried to kill them off, but I love them really. Ben Travis!

2:54:48Jeremy? Close enough. James Dyer! And Helen O 'Hara, of course! And it's goodbye from me as well. Thank you so much for coming. There are, as we speak, 11 months, 8 days, 1 hour, 27 minutes, and 6 seconds to Avengers Doomsday. See you then. Thanks for listening. Bye-bye! Music