Escape From Malcatraz (ft. guests Benedict Cumberbatch & Dylan Southern; Joel Edgerton & Clint Bentley; Ariana Greenblatt)

7:12Ariana Greenblatt:Okay, you're both wrong.

7:13Chris Hewitt:I have many answers for this. Who can forget, of course, the heartbreaking performance that Dr. William Weary gave us himself in the classic 1997 movie, Event Horizon. Hans Gruber has made only one movie. Why? Because he sacrificed himself for his art by leaping off the top of the Nakatomi Plaza to his death just so he could give Die Hard a rousing ending.

7:36Benedict Cumberbatch:Chris, are you okay?

7:38Chris Hewitt:I feel like something's happening. Well, here's what's happening. You guys answered your questions so quickly that I have to filibuster a little bit. Why do you think it's on me? Just to pad it. No, I know exactly what I'm going for. Oh, okay. I know exactly what I'm going for. Okay, and it's not Bruce Willis. It's not Bruce Willis. That never even crossed my mind. And I'm surprised that neither of you have gone for the one that I'm about to say. Okay, let me guess. Is it Keanu Reeves? In what? And Always Be My Maybe. Yeah. No, but since you guys love that so much.

8:03Benedict Cumberbatch:Do you have any dishes that play with time? Like, the concept of time.

8:08Chris Hewitt:Jesus, I think I know what our collective choice is going to be. I'm going to be outfitted.

8:11Joel Edgerton:Is it Margot Robbie in a bubble bath? No. Right. I mean, that's the answer to a lot of questions, but it's not the answer to this particular question. Okay, fine.

8:19Benedict Cumberbatch:Is it Al Pacino in Jack and Jill? Oh, it might be.

8:26Chris Hewitt:It wasn't, but then you reminded me

8:28Joel Edgerton:of Al Pacino. Everyone loves my Dunkacinos. I know what it is. Yes? Billy Zane. No. No? Oh! Zoolander. These are all good. that seems like one you would have picked I mean I'm coming because I've done your friend Billy Zane this is live memory jogging I really like it

8:47Chris Hewitt:I mean that did spawn I think we can say the greatest recurring feature in the history of Empire Magazine

8:53Joel Edgerton:yeah

8:54Chris Hewitt:I think we say any number of people in case people don't know what we're talking about we actually ran an agony uncle column for about what three years listen to your friend Billy Zane called listen to your friend I can't even say that word, called Listen to Your Friend Billy Sane, inspired by his appearance as himself, or maybe an exaggerated version of himself, I don't know, in the classic 2001 comedy, Sulander, in which it is said of him, by Owen Wilson, listen to your friend Billy Sane. And this was an Agony Uncle column, no word of a lie, that Billy Sane actually wrote. Actually did. Literally did it.

9:34Chris Hewitt:Every single month. yes

9:35Benedict Cumberbatch:good advice didn't think

9:37Chris Hewitt:he took it so seriously and he was so great at dispensing advice and sadly it ran its natural course but it's something I think about a lot a lot but no it is not my it's not my choice although I do think I prefer it to the one I was going to say

9:54Joel Edgerton:what were you going to say you could go with any number of people from this is the end like Emma Watson Michael Cera never even heard of me

10:00Benedict Cumberbatch:the funniest one there is Channing Tatum really

10:02Chris Hewitt:yeah okay I mean there are so many great cameos of people playing themselves in movies throughout the years. You know, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar playing himself in Airplane.

10:13Benedict Cumberbatch:That's not himself. He's clearly, he's got a name on his uniform, if you remember. Totally different name.

10:20Chris Hewitt:I love the bit where he gets busted and he pulls a kid close to him and goes, listen kid, you bust your buns running up that court every night. I can't remember the line. Anyway, that's an amazing, amazing cameo.

10:31Benedict Cumberbatch:I know the right answer.

10:32Chris Hewitt:Okay, here we go.

10:33Benedict Cumberbatch:Peter Falk, Wings of Desire.

10:36Chris Hewitt:No, yes. Come on. No.

10:38Benedict Cumberbatch:He's Peter Falk. We've run out of... And he's playing an angel version of himself. How is that not the best answer to this question?

10:45Chris Hewitt:Well, the question was... I mean, Peter Falk is basically playing himself on Columbo, right? I don't think we can all agree that. The best performance of an actor playing themselves. Yeah. So are any of these... Who did you say again? You said someone frivolous. I said many, many wonderful things. You did say someone, didn't you? Which one?

11:02Joel Edgerton:I said like five different people your actual choice oh my choice was John Malkovich

11:06Chris Hewitt:John Malkovich see that's a performance that's a great performance and he's in it a lot he is so is Nicolas Cage you said Nicolas Cage another one

11:13Joel Edgerton:in it a lot

11:14Chris Hewitt:oh

11:16Joel Edgerton:I've gone for a cameo okay I mean you are quite first base but come on tell us who is it it's Bill Murray oh Zombieland that's a good one that is a good one yeah

11:25Benedict Cumberbatch:that is a really good one it is

11:27Joel Edgerton:it's good

11:27Benedict Cumberbatch:it's a smaller role though yeah

11:29Joel Edgerton:I mean it's not as good as the house but I will allow it

11:31Chris Hewitt:Well, I think it's a better cameo, but it's a worse performance because he's not asked to play the range that Malkitraze and Cage are in those movies. But it is iconic. It is.

11:53Benedict Cumberbatch:That's true.

11:54Chris Hewitt:He does get to die. Spoiler for Zombieland. Spoiler for that film that came out, what, 12 years ago.

12:00Benedict Cumberbatch:I think everyone involved has now won an Oscar.

12:03Chris Hewitt:I thought you were going to say everyone involved has now died. No, not quite.

12:06Benedict Cumberbatch:Abigail Breslin is still to come, but everyone else.

12:08Chris Hewitt:Oh, my God. I thought this is Helen's new obituary column. She just announces people who have died. Also, we haven't got to news yet. There's still time. As far as I know, she's okay.

12:17Benedict Cumberbatch:Don't worry.

12:18Chris Hewitt:We won't do news for another 15 minutes. I don't think it's happened. Hang in there, Abigail. Hang in there. All right. So I'm going Bill Murray. Because I can't think of anyone else. Okay. I mean, there's loads and loads of people, and I'm going to kick myself because this is going to get loads of people on social media going, what about that person?

12:36Benedict Cumberbatch:Well, interestingly, you mentioned Kareem Abdul-Jabbar because the first one that genuinely came to mind for me for this was Lance Armstrong in Dodgeball, where he has that incredible cameo as himself.

12:48Chris Hewitt:Yes.

12:49Benedict Cumberbatch:And the problem is that all of the scandal around him ever since has completely undermined that cameo and is now pretty much impossible.

12:58Chris Hewitt:Please fill me in.

12:59Benedict Cumberbatch:Let's just say that he may not have won the Tour de France as cleanly as we all would have hoped. You know this, Chris.

13:07Joel Edgerton:You're such a dope.

13:09Benedict Cumberbatch:Photo finish. He was stripped of his titles in 2012.

13:13Chris Hewitt:But he wasn't stripped of his dodgeball cameo, and that's important. That is true.

13:17Benedict Cumberbatch:That is important, but it would have worked better. It works better as a cameo before we had heard the controversy.

13:24Chris Hewitt:But what if you didn't know about the controversy and you watch Dodgeball for the first time.

13:28Benedict Cumberbatch:So you know that Lance Armstrong is a person who exists in the world and you believe that he has...

13:33Chris Hewitt:Right. So you watch Dodgeball in 2005 when it came out.

13:38Benedict Cumberbatch:Then it would be a freaking great cameo. One of those years. It was great.

13:42Chris Hewitt:And then you got hit by a car and you're in a coma for a lot of years.

13:48Joel Edgerton:A lot of years. I don't think that would happen because as Pages O 'Houlihan would say, if you can dodge traffic, you can dodge a ball. But this person couldn't. No.

13:57Chris Hewitt:and now they're in a coma

13:59Ariana Greenblatt:hang in there Abigail

14:01Chris Hewitt:you'll be fine just another 15 minutes to go anyway that's my choice I'm going with it I'm sticking with it I know there are better choices out there but this is my choice this is the one I've made there's only one guarantee none of us will see the end of the segment because we still have one choice to make and that is our collective choice

14:22Benedict Cumberbatch:what is?

14:23Chris Hewitt:the one we're about to make were you in a coma? what just happened? what about Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back?

14:32Joel Edgerton:oh Matt Damon and Ben Affleck how do you like them apples? Good Will Hunting 2 hunting season

14:38Chris Hewitt:yeah and Gus Van Sant by the monitor counting his money not even paying attention to what they're doing

14:43Benedict Cumberbatch:well I mean by that token surely we get into like Tom Cruise in Austin Powers Goldmember

14:51Chris Hewitt:do we? don't we? is that a better performance? then Matt Damon and Ben Affleck reprising their roles, their beloved roles of Will Hunting and Chucky the Doll. Yeah, you think that's better?

15:05Benedict Cumberbatch:Yeah.

15:06Chris Hewitt:All right. In that case, we also have to include his co-stars in that movie. People like Gwyneth Paltrow. Yeah. People like Steven Spielberg.

15:14Benedict Cumberbatch:Yeah, there we are. People like Danny DeFito.

15:16Chris Hewitt:People like Kevin Spacey. Show of hands. Who's voting for Kevin Spacey and his friends from Austin Powers in Goldmember. It's just me at the moment. What's going on?

15:29Benedict Cumberbatch:Neither of them were my choice. I'm just saying, like, by Jay and Silent Bob rules, that should be in there as well.

15:33Chris Hewitt:Okay. Prove me wrong, Silent Bob. Jimbo, do you have a suggestion? Because that one seems to have died. It's been hit by a card. I have any number of suggestions. I've made, like, seven of them.

15:45Joel Edgerton:Are you going to go for a Bruce Willis? Shall we nominate a Bruce Willis? I think Bruce Willis in Ocean's 12 or 13 would be a good shout. Which one is it? It's 12, right.

15:54Benedict Cumberbatch:I would have put him down for the player. The player, but it's not really a performance.

15:59Chris Hewitt:It's a performance in Ocean's 12. It is, yeah.

16:02Joel Edgerton:And you can't have Julia Roberts because it's not technically Julia Roberts playing Julia Roberts. It's Julia Roberts playing Tess playing Julia Roberts.

16:07Chris Hewitt:Yes, who's in a scene with someone who looks like Matt Damon, but no one comments on it.

16:11Benedict Cumberbatch:Makes no sense.

16:13Chris Hewitt:Like, no one notices that.

16:15Benedict Cumberbatch:I don't think that's the best performance, though.

16:17Chris Hewitt:No, I mean... He sells it well.

16:19Benedict Cumberbatch:Sure, but he's no Keanu in Always Be My Maybe.

16:22Chris Hewitt:I think I may have to acquiesce to your requests and go for Keanu in a film I have never seen but I know that you love that film because you're always banging on about it always

16:34Benedict Cumberbatch:like when's the last time I mentioned it I mean literally yes today but like before that anyway it was just before we went to the coma it was very sad he's really really funny in it it's very good

16:45Chris Hewitt:and so super dishy I mean obviously all of those okay so the winner is Margot Robbie in the bath from The big short. No, it's Keanu, right? It's Keanu. Sure. Yeah. Okay. Good question?

16:56Benedict Cumberbatch:Yeah, fun question.

16:57Chris Hewitt:We got it very wrong. I know we did. I know there is like a really good answer out there.

17:02Benedict Cumberbatch:Oh, there's a million.

17:03Chris Hewitt:Oh, Pasuzu as himself in The Exorcist.

17:05Benedict Cumberbatch:Again, are you okay? This is not how this question works, Chris.

17:10Chris Hewitt:I was playing in traffic earlier on and I turned out pretty nicely. You dodged traffic.

17:16Benedict Cumberbatch:But he couldn't dodge a ball.

17:17Chris Hewitt:But I couldn't dodge this podcast. Here we are. All right. Shall we plug the live show?

17:23Clint Bentley:Why not?

17:24Chris Hewitt:Let's do it because we are going live, folks. Episode 700, who's counting, of this beloved podcast is happening on Friday, January 9th at our spiritual home of King's Place in London. Tickets have been in sale for just over a week now, maybe nearly two weeks, and are selling very, very well indeed. So well, in fact, that the balcony section has now been opened. So if you want to sit up top and take a look at James's bald spot, which starts around the ear and goes to the other ear

18:00Joel Edgerton:and goes around to encompass the eyebrows. It's a pretty large landing zone, really, given that it's my entire head.

18:08Chris Hewitt:Yours has gone full Sahara. My bald spot is like a little bit of desert that is getting bigger. so it's like an analogy for global warming it is precisely that so you can sit up top and see our bald spots and that'll be a lot of fun and we'll have some guests and we'll do all this nonsense and it's a ton of fun if you've ever been to one of our live shows you'll know they're great fun they're a great laugh we occasionally talk about films as well and if you've never been now is your chance there are only about 40 seats left so kingsplace.co.uk to sign up Do not wait until near the date because they will all be gone.

18:46Chris Hewitt:Be quick. And hey, we are thinking of going on tour next year. We'd like to go back on tour again. It's been a couple of years since we last did our little mini tour. And that was a few years since our first one as well. And if I'm completely honest, I think the only way we could do this is if we have a lovely headline sponsor to come in and make everything possible and lovely and shiny. So if you or the company you represent, you think that you are that person or that company, then get in touch with me on social media. And I will put you in touch with the people who can make this happen. Let's talk.

19:26Chris Hewitt:Let's talk, you and me, so we can all go on the road together and entertain the people of Britain. That'll be fun. All right, shall we be for guest?

19:35Benedict Cumberbatch:Let's.

19:36Chris Hewitt:All right, who do you want first? Do you want the Thing with Feathers duo, the Train Dreams duo, or the Now You See Me solo?

19:44Benedict Cumberbatch:Let's just go in the order you said.

19:46Chris Hewitt:Okay, so the Thing with Feathers duo, and that would be star Benedict Cumberbatch and director Dylan Southern. And this is a very, very interesting movie about a father played by Benedict Cumberbatch who is going through major grief after the sudden and tragic loss of his wife and he is trying to raise his two kids in the aftermath of that and meanwhile he is being visited by something that may or may not be a metaphor for grief folks it is a giant possibly malevolent talking crow so yeah that doesn't happen a lot to me certainly but this is a really really intense and very very moving film from Dylan Southern who's making this directorial debut with this and Benedict Cumberbatch is incredible in it.

20:38Chris Hewitt:So much so that, as you're about to hear, when I sat down with him and Southern in the London hotel room a couple of months ago now, just before the London Film Festival got underway, one of my chief concerns was making sure that Benedict Cumberbatch was okay. So here we go. It's a really, really interesting interview. Do please enjoy.

20:57Ariana Greenblatt:Benedict, Dylan, welcome to the Empire Podcast. How are you both?

21:00Chris Hewitt:Thank you. Very good. Lovely to see you again. Lovely to see you. And, you know, Benedict, I have to ask, I mean, it's an amazing performance. Thank you. Are you okay? I'm okay. Thank you. Because you put yourself out here.

21:09Clint Bentley:Thank you. Out there in this movie. I mean, in general, I think I'm okay. Anyone can tell you that. Yeah, it's a really weird job I do, isn't it? It's a very, yeah. It's a kind of, it is a job. So, you know, you have to have this kind of structure around it to safeguard your own sanity. Yeah. I often work with someone on preparing a character and this time they were like, no, you're good. All you have to do is just take care of yourself. Make sure you're all right in the journey to and from home. Do you think about things like aftercare as actor and director? He was great. He said, are you all right?

21:45Clint Bentley:Are you okay? He was very caring. We got on incredibly well in pre-production. The only real hurdle with Dylan having never done a feature before was like, am I going to get on with this guy? Can he hold me? literally kind of is it right to do what I need to do and I knew very early on that that would be the case and a really lovely friendship's come out of this and will continue in a collaborative way as well as a friendship way so it's that's half the work done really and then the rest of it is just doing my job which is anything from imagining a whole story and seeing triggers of the missing person around the set to digging a little bit into my own pain but also sometimes just unexpected unexpected stuff, you know, like the folding clothes, packing away scene, which was a scene

22:31Ariana Greenblatt:originally but then became part of the montage near the end, was sort of unexpectedly devastating.

22:38Clint Bentley:And then the moments where it says, you know, Dad weeps, you kind of go, oh God, you know, just try not to read that stage duration too much. And then you just, you slowly build an engine, you breathe a bit before the take, you have to, I feel you have to be just so touch paper sensitive, you have to just be able to ignite the minute action is cool. if you're just waiting for action and then you have to go it's like you know act like it's like a command yeah whereas if you've already accepted the command of let it in action it's just a nice way of going okay we're recording whenever you want to do your thing the aftercare thing became

23:11Ariana Greenblatt:important well it was important to me from the start but i remember the day after the film had finished i was kind of wandering around town not knowing what to do i think i went to the prince Charles and watched like two films in a row and just realizing that. You're a normal day, basically. Not a normal day. Back to normal. But I suddenly realized that I've been at the center of this storm for six weeks being asked questions nonstop and fielding answers and, you know, and suddenly it's down to no one. First question I got asked was like... Do you want popcorn? Yeah. But I thought about the boys and what it must be like for two seven-year-olds who'd been at the eye of this storm and like he's very keen to like maintain contacts they have playdates with my kids and i've taken them to comic-con and stuff so i i do think it is a thing that it's such an intense process i discovered because i've only done documentaries before this is my debut narrative feature yeah i sort of discovered the intensity of of those six weeks and what a hard stop it is you know suddenly you know you've got a week before you go into the edit but but everything just stops and you know there's a certain weirdly of grieving for the process that you've just been in it was very strange I feel bad that I wasn't there for you

24:23Clint Bentley:you should have come on a play date with me I should have been in with you at the Prince of Charles

24:27Chris Hewitt:you should have a support group going on at the end of every shoot

24:32Clint Bentley:people have it worse let me just state that I love that you checked in with them you know Richard and Henry Boxall two untrained to act as just this raw lightning in a jar talent which Dylan spotted and then threw me into a room with a couple of others. I was terrified after the chemistry test of them. I was like, I don't think, I literally feel physically unsafe. These boys are wild. They were wild. They were throwing shit around. Not literally, but I wouldn't be surprised. It was just kind of like, how are we going to make the day? As a producer, I was kind of panicking with that hat on. And as an actor I thought, where's the oxygen to breathe to just get anywhere

25:12Helen O'Hara:near where I have to get for Dad?

25:13Clint Bentley:But it all worked out. And it was part of the wonderful chaotic mess that this whole story really is about, which is that grief isn't a linear little stepping stone thing. You go from stage one or stage five or whatever fricking stages are to going back again. It's a jumbled mess. It's not a hallmark linear passage to freedom. And it could hit you out of the blue. Out of the blue. Years after the event. Yeah, precisely that. Precisely that. And the boys just had that kind of chaos around them. And if they taught me anything, it was the humility of being present and just not caring as much as I thought I need to in order to be able to be free to play and just feel things.

25:52Ariana Greenblatt:I actually wanted to put a title at the end of the film, not that there would be a sequel, but, you know, where James Bond will return, Crow will return.

26:00Joel Edgerton:because that's kind of what he will do.

26:03Ariana Greenblatt:It's true for the character. We won't necessarily see that happen, but that's what's in store for him. Let's talk about how this came about for you guys. So, Dylan, let's start with you. How did you get involved? I mean, it's been a long journey to make the film. I keep saying it's been 10 years. Obviously, I've done work in between that. It hasn't just been a sort of solitary crusade to make it, but it's been something that has been in my life since the book came out in 2015, and it was gifted to me by a friend who knew my tastes and just said, I think you'll love this book. And he was right.

26:35I read it, read it again.

26:37Ariana Greenblatt:The same bit made me cry, the final pages. And Max is such a wonderful writer that he holds back on sentimentality and then just sucker punches you with it at the end. And I was just like, this is remarkable. It's such a slim volume, yet it contains so much depth and so much truth. And if I'm being completely honest, I thought this is an unfilmable book. yet still somehow managed to find myself in a coffee shop with Max two weeks later, persuading him to option it to me. And I think he liked my honesty. I don't have all the answers, but I know what it is that I love and other people must love about this book.

27:15Ariana Greenblatt:And I would want to make a film that maintains its DNA, but does its own thing as well. And Max being the brilliant, kind of very generous, giving collaborator that he is, agreed. and he's been a supporter and a godfather and a kind of mentor ever since. He's in the film. He plays handsome man at book launch.

27:39Benedict Cumberbatch:That's his credit at the end.

27:41Ariana Greenblatt:Tall handsome man. Tall handsome man at book launch. Okay. Was that his addition?

27:45Chris Hewitt:Tall handsome man? He was normally handsome man but he wouldn't do it unless he got that credit.

27:49Ariana Greenblatt:But no, I mean, the book touched me, you know, like everyone I've had experiences of bereavement and grief and And like a lot of people, I think I dealt with it in unhealthy ways and suppressed it and kind of just carried it with me in a not so healthy way. And the book kind of gave me a language and, you know, a premise that I could look at and understand some things about myself. And I just I hope that if we make a film, it does at least a fraction of what Max's book does in terms of like providing, you know, being cathartic to someone who's been through it or illuminating to someone that hasn't.

28:25Ariana Greenblatt:Benedict, what about yourself?

28:26Clint Bentley:Did the producer Benedict get involved first or actor Benedict? Actor Benedict, reader Benedict, really. I fell in love with the book and saw it as a film when I read it and then saw Cillian Murphy smash it as a stage play that Ender Walsh wrote, but very different cut of the same animal. He's butchering analogy, I guess. We haven't butchered it? Hopefully not. Moving on. He became Crow. For me, what the transcript did, what the adaptation did that Dylan wrote was bring far more of the book to life, this kaleidoscopic, imaginative, new form, and very referential and reverential of film in and of itself.

29:09Clint Bentley:and it smacked the familiar and obviously an age of manhood that was very familiar to me and i just kind of got it and it came to me through um uh andrea and andrea cornwall of um low-po films and dylan didn't came to my house and i'd read the script he pitched it to me and for me the one thing to establish was okay i know he's a great documentarian and i know he's got a great vision for this film but how is he going to hold the process of making a feature um and it didn't take long before the friendship formed around anything but the script we just talked about food music arts culture in general um i remember stepping outside of yours and just thinking we didn't actually talk about the script again yeah and we had a few meetings like that which were just joyous and a friendship form from that and trust which is the most important thing when you're going to go to those places you want someone on the other side who's going to hold you and yeah i really thought i had that with dylan and then you know yeah the producer had on me yes for sure i i'm very proud of what we've done at sunny march and every sort of level of um budget but this is a small independent british film and a new voice as well two things that we're very passionate about so that and the subject matter meant a huge deal to uh one of our uh key producers but to all of us who've been affected by any grief but one in particular and we've been behind this for a while, you know, for good reason.

30:39Clint Bentley:Did you think it was unfilmable? No, not at all, not at all. No, especially with Susie Davis' design with Hicks as your inspiration for Crow.

30:54Ariana Greenblatt:When I quickly persuaded myself it was filmable, you know, that was the sort of knee-jerk reaction but I think it was, as Benedict's saying, it's with the collaborators who are able to come on board.

31:05Clint Bentley:And it is that sort of thing where you go, okay, we're in for the ride, and wherever this takes us, it takes us. You just have to have faith and know that the artists behind the design of my drawings, who is Lucy Sullivan and I've got to say Andrea Hicks, sorry. Nicola Hicks. Nicola Hicks, I'm getting tired now, sorry. Nicola Hicks created, and she just does create these extraordinary, sort of visceral, organic, materially made anthropomorphic animals. It's just so ripe for the connective tissue between what Crow is in an imaginative space and what could be as an analogue reality on a set that has to be filmed.

31:48Clint Bentley:So we extrapolated, well, Dylan had this long process and this lovely collaboration that we had you know not just sharing with me but also with max all the way these iterations of what they called maquettes the smaller statue yeah just actually and then the puppet workshop material the first head that came out and the first trial of it on stilts that are extraordinary eric lampard it was the operator puppeteer and actor underneath it all manifested it into being on set it was just a it but did we know that was going to work or be filmable no and also when it was there we were like, if we film a lot of this, it looks a bit pony.

32:21Joel Edgerton:Or what are we going to do about the legs?

32:24Clint Bentley:And then it was about how to feature, how not to feature it, whether it's a shadow, whether it's a full profile. And it was a constant process of creativity and collaboration and discovery. That's really fucking exciting. Not everything was locked into multi-million dollar storyboards and previs and this is how it must be. And yet the stakes were equally high because we had very little time and money to play with. There's a film about making, about telling stories. That was the point I was trying to make, exactly, reflecting on the subject.

32:54Ariana Greenblatt:And so to bring, to sort of curate the visuals and bring in someone from the world of fine art, like Nicola Hicks, who's a sculptor who does this incredible work, or to bring in Lucy Sullivan, who's a graphic novelist, whose work I admired from reading prior to this, to be able to bring them in and say, this is our sandpit and this is what we're creating and I want your work to be part of it and that's how the whole kind of tactile, handmade kind of feel of the film came about. It was important to me that Crow wasn't a slick CGI thing that you could almost see the joints because he's there for Dad and he's there for the kids and it makes sense that he's this kind of janky kind of creation.

33:34Clint Bentley:and he's as wobbly as the half-broken sofa or the scratch of pen and ink on paper.

33:42Ariana Greenblatt:It's tactile and analogue. I love the way Max put it, you get the crow you deserve. If it was a bit shit at times,

33:49Clint Bentley:it's because that's the bit of grief and maybe doubt and maybe even the kids are a bit shit at times. That's all right.

33:56Chris Hewitt:That's being human. Absolutely. David Hewlett, of course, is the voice of crow in this. Was he on set at all? that he provided the voice on set? He almost was. He was in the form

34:07Clint Bentley:of Eric's impression of him, which is another weird kind of, okay, people say, you act in Marvel films, it must be so bizarre to suddenly be with more real elements. I had a lot of unreal elements in this, including Eric in that costume on stilts. Two children who've never acted before writing poo on his head and saying, you owe me big time after giving me a hug in the middle of a take. And also, you know, having, doing a David Dillis impression underneath that crop. So it was bizarre.

34:35Ariana Greenblatt:David Thewlis was there from day one for me because when I was reading the book, there were two voices that Crow would alter between. One of them was David Thewlis in Naked and the other one was Marquis Smith of the Fall. And had Marquis Smith survived, maybe he would have played Crow, but it was always going to be one of the two of them. I can hear that, yeah. I did a music video with Marquis Smith once and it was the thing that gives me the most pride in my life because they're my favourite band, but it was also as terrifying. And, you know, he called me the C-word, which I think you do. That's a badge of honour, isn't it?

35:09Ariana Greenblatt:Yeah, you'd be upset if you didn't, right?

35:13Chris Hewitt:You start from the remark, E. Smith, and then you work your way up. To seven-year-olds writing a pill on you. Calling you weak man. Yeah, I mean, that was it.

35:21Ariana Greenblatt:It seems respect is hard to earn, except for someone like me.

35:25Chris Hewitt:That is absolutely amazing. Yeah, I was going to say, how do you direct Mark E. Smith? but yeah that's extraordinary now David you listen naked is you know one of the great performances it's one of those ones

35:35Clint Bentley:that made me want to do it it's one of those moments you go that is the that's the pinnacle that's that's why I want to try to have a go at this what's that was I bought that's so good 666 the mark the mark the mark training David all his impressions

35:52Chris Hewitt:all day long

35:55Clint Bentley:but he came on he was always there in our imagination but he came on quite late so that was another thing of like going this is really taking on his characteristic literally because eric was kind of voicing him yeah we've got so much ad-libbed stuff as well i was you know

36:09Ariana Greenblatt:early there's like great to release a vinyl just with crow's voice on it that you can put on to torture yourself why not why not why not indeed uh dylan benedict always a pleasure thanks so

36:20Chris Hewitt:much thank you so much thank you thank you okay that was benedict cumberbatch and dylan southern star and director of The Thing with Feathers. We'll be talking about that later on in the show. But right now it is time for the news section, folks, which means Abigail Breslin is okay.

36:36Benedict Cumberbatch:Phew, hooray.

36:37Chris Hewitt:That was a close one, but we're all good. I'm not sure about the rest of the cast of Zombieland, but hopefully they're all good.

36:43Benedict Cumberbatch:Again, I never said anything about them dying. I talked about them winning Oscars. It was heavily implied. The sad news is that Abigail Breslin has not yet won an Oscar.

36:52Chris Hewitt:Well, maybe you shouldn't let people interrupt.

36:55Benedict Cumberbatch:yes good advice there let's see how that goes okay what do you want to talk about can we talk

37:01Joel Edgerton:about star trek okay i feel like we need to talk about star trek like there have been rumblings about how and in what form star trek will turn to to the big screen but we now finally know that jonathan goldstein and john francis daly are going to be making a star trek film very very exciting and also we know that it's not going to be connected to the kelvin verse the J.J. Abrams sort of Star Trek stuff. But it's also not going to be connected directly to the Kurtzmanverse, which is all the TV stuff, whether it be Strange New Worlds, Discovery, all of that. Or the Roddenverse. Is it going to be connected to that?

37:31Joel Edgerton:All of them are connected to the Roddenverse. But I'm very, very pleased. I'm very pleased that they're doing it. I'm curious as to what tone they'll take with it. Because normally, I would have said, had you asked me several years ago, that there is no room for humor. I take my Star Trek very seriously. and yeah I have enjoyed the Strange New Worlds episodes that are funny more than almost any other so actually I'm now very very open to Star Trek humour

37:56Chris Hewitt:have you ever enjoyed

37:57Joel Edgerton:humour in Trek ever? I mean they've been I mean yeah they've been great moments Star Trek Insurrection is properly hilarious to me anyway maybe not to anyone else and they've always had like good gags in there but when it goes all out comedy I don't like Lower Decks that much but then that might be my whole Lower Decks is so funny though I just I can't be dealing with that animation you know that it's a weird thing I have but Strange New Worlds which has been all over the shop tonally is so much fun.

38:21Benedict Cumberbatch:Yeah. So I think there is, I think you're right, I think there's room for this, room for that kind of tone, a sort of Dungeons and Dragons tone. The only sad thing about them not doing the Kelvinverse is I immediately assumed on first reading the headline, oh, well, re-teaming with Chris Pine, that works. Yeah. So maybe that's not the case. Maybe he'll appear in a different form. Maybe he'll, you know, turn up in some other role.

38:43Chris Hewitt:A gelatinous blob.

38:44Benedict Cumberbatch:I mean, maybe, probably not. triple isn't a gelatinous blob but yes no I know

38:49Chris Hewitt:that's why I put a gap between the two things comma a triple

38:52Benedict Cumberbatch:yes honestly I'm just saying because there have been gelatinous blobs I mean tell Tasha you are do you know what I mean it's true skin of evil

38:59Joel Edgerton:exactly controversial

39:01Benedict Cumberbatch:very controversial

39:03Joel Edgerton:what of course I know the name of the episode

39:07Benedict Cumberbatch:and if you press him he'll probably tell you the season and the episode number so let's not try him on that

39:13Chris Hewitt:season one episode I want to say 21 I'm going to look it up for you

39:21Joel Edgerton:because I don't know that

39:22Chris Hewitt:or 19

39:23Benedict Cumberbatch:I think that's a good guess I was going to say 19

39:24Joel Edgerton:it's towards the tail end Skin of Evil is the 23rd episode of the first season oh I was going to say 23rd

39:30Benedict Cumberbatch:you forgot that there were 24 episodes a season in those days oh god damn it

39:35Joel Edgerton:so close so close and yet so far buried alive buried alive

39:38Benedict Cumberbatch:oh anyway I just I love them I wish there had been 16 Dungeons and Dragons films already. I loved Honor of Monty so much. And if I can't have that, this seems like a good substitute. This seems like, it feels like a better fit immediately than, with all respect, Quentin Tarantino.

39:59James Dyer:Yeah.

39:59Benedict Cumberbatch:I'm sure he would have done something really interesting and very different and I'm sure I would have ended up being fascinated by it. But this feels more Trek, Heartland to me. And I'm excited about that.

40:11Joel Edgerton:And Trek's gone through a really interesting transition because, I mean, JJ Abrams did quite a lot to mainstream-ify Trek in a way that it kind of hadn't been previously since, I would argue, like The Voyage Home. But I think the TV stuff has made it, if not cool, then certainly mainstream. Like, loads of people watch Discovery. Strange New Worlds is incredibly accessible.

40:29Helen O'Hara:Yeah.

40:29Joel Edgerton:And so, yeah, I think it's no longer quite so nerd-specific, much to my chagrin.

40:35Benedict Cumberbatch:No, but I like it when it also delves into big ideas. Yes. So I could even do with a bit more of that in Strange New Worlds and... Maybe we could have a little bit of that in the film as well, perhaps.

40:47Chris Hewitt:No, there has to be an explosion in the first two minutes. Otherwise, people will get bored. Yeah, but you can explode things and still have big ideas, Chris. You can explode your mind. Whoa.

40:55Benedict Cumberbatch:That's right. You can. But yes, super excited. Fingers crossed. Hoping for the best.

41:00Chris Hewitt:Yes. In case you don't know who we're talking about, the team of Goldstein and Daly are the guys behind us. We mentioned Dungeons and Dragons, Honor Among Thieves, which was incredible. Game Night, the greatest comedy of the last 10 years.

41:13Benedict Cumberbatch:Oh no, he died.

41:15Chris Hewitt:Yes, with including the greatest line reading of all time, of all time. And before that, Vacation, the reboot of Vacation, which is a lot of fun. Also very underrated. And they've made another movie in the interim. They've made a film with Ryan Reynolds. It's an action adventure called Mayday. That is another Goldstein and Daly original joint. So that's exciting.

41:39Benedict Cumberbatch:That's a departure from working with Chris's. Yes.

41:42Chris Hewitt:On at least two of the previous ones. Are they going to be okay?

41:45Benedict Cumberbatch:I hope so. Are they trying to like take off all the Chrises?

41:49Chris Hewitt:How can that be profitable for Frito-Lay? We don't know. We just don't know. And now here we are on Trek. And I'm really, really, like you, I'm really sad that this isn't, you know, the Kelvin crew, as I think we now have to call them. Why do we have to call them that?

42:05Benedict Cumberbatch:Well, I think, as you know, Chris, the Kelvin was the ship that exploded at the beginning. I know. Yes. Serge Abrams.

42:12Chris Hewitt:But then why... Killing Thor.

42:14Benedict Cumberbatch:Yeah.

42:15Chris Hewitt:But they're on the Enterprise.

42:17Benedict Cumberbatch:Yeah, but it's the Kelvinverse because that's the sort of... It shifted the timeline. It shifted the timeline. It's a fractured timeline.

42:21Chris Hewitt:I see.

42:22Benedict Cumberbatch:It's the Trousers of Time and that's the crotch.

42:25Chris Hewitt:It's one way of putting it. Oh my God. So Chris Hemsworth is in the crotch. Yes.

42:29Benedict Cumberbatch:Yes. Oh my God.

42:31Chris Hewitt:That didn't end well for him though, did it? It didn't. Not really. Okay, well...

42:34Benedict Cumberbatch:I mean, it did because it brought him a lot of attention and then he got cast as Thor.

42:38Chris Hewitt:Oh, a happy ending for Chris Hemsworth.

42:40Benedict Cumberbatch:In the crotch. in the crotch

42:42Chris Hewitt:okay so there had been news a few weeks ago that they weren't Paramount weren't going to proceed with that cast your Chris Pines and your Sacri Quintos and your Carl Urban's and your Zoe Saldana's

42:53Dylan Southern:and obviously

42:54Chris Hewitt:Anton Yelchin sadly no longer with us but it's a shame we won't get to see those guys again yeah it is

43:01Benedict Cumberbatch:I think they've I think they've all just become too famous and in demand if I'm honest like if you're trying to negotiate you know Zoe Saldana's commitments to Avatar and Carl Urban's commitments to the boys.

43:13Chris Hewitt:That's about to come to an end, though, isn't it?

43:15Benedict Cumberbatch:Well, okay, but you hear what I'm saying. I'm saying they're in-demand people. I'm giving you examples of a couple of things that they've done.

43:20Chris Hewitt:Yes, Sacri Quinto's commitment to Margin Call 2. Call Me Maybe, which is happening.

43:27Benedict Cumberbatch:Absolutely. I saw him on stage, didn't I? He was very good. Did you?

43:30Chris Hewitt:Oh, good. Excellent.

43:31Joel Edgerton:Anything else you want to talk about? Yes, the other thing that was on my mind is the first images came out from the Legend of Zelda movie, which is coming out in 2027. This is the West Bull film. yeah so we got pictures of Benjamin Evan Ainsworth as Link the hero of the story and Bo Braggerson as Princess Zelda and while I was skeptical and obviously remain slightly skeptical about this they look pretty much how I would imagine a Link and Zelda should look in a film so I have no notes so I'm feeling pretty good about it yeah

44:00Benedict Cumberbatch:okay so well that was exciting but genuinely

44:04Joel Edgerton:because you know if you do live action Mario you've got a problem and Link right up to Breath of the Wild was quite a caricatured figure but because we've seen him I mean it's not photo real but because we've seen him with kind of vaguely realistic features now it's not a huge leap to put someone faintly elfin looking give them pointy ears and look you're Link you're Zelda great but they do embody it well

44:25Benedict Cumberbatch:she's dressed very very very like Evangeline Lilly in the Hobbit films that's my big note

44:32Joel Edgerton:playing the character that of course we all know the name of in the Hobbit films

44:36Benedict Cumberbatch:yep Hang on, the Evangeline Lilly character.

44:39Chris Hewitt:Yeah, that's the one. You don't know her character?

44:41Benedict Cumberbatch:Yeah, we know.

44:42Chris Hewitt:Of course we know. It's Kate from Lost. Yeah, that's right. Everyone knows that. It's Hope Van Dyne. Yeah, which is Elven for...

44:51Benedict Cumberbatch:Toriel.

44:52Chris Hewitt:No, it's not. I think it might be. Really? Isn't that what they put in Red Bull? Wasn't that the creature that killed Tasha Yar in... In Skin of Evil. Episode 23. Episode 23 of the season one of Star Trek and their generation.

45:04Benedict Cumberbatch:Oh, yeah.

45:05Chris Hewitt:Boom. I remembered it first. Yeah. I would never have known that. I knew that, obviously. You could have put an arrow to my head. I would not have known that at all. Wowzers. Yeah. Okay.

45:16Joel Edgerton:What were you talking about? It's hard to say. Legend of Zelda. They look fine, is what we're saying.

45:20Benedict Cumberbatch:You were happy for us.

45:21Joel Edgerton:I think they look fine. I have no notes.

45:22Benedict Cumberbatch:You knew a moment of peace and contentment.

45:24Joel Edgerton:Yeah, I'm fine with that. I mean, something that people are less fine with, though, will be the new trailer for the live-action Moana. Now, there was much talk of not my Moana on the internet, which I kind of understand. I liked it because I love the songs. I love the soundtrack. I love the music from that film. And obviously that carries across. But again, we come back to the same question we have whenever these come out, which is I don't know why this exists because it already exists.

45:51Benedict Cumberbatch:Yep.

45:51Clint Bentley:But the music will still be great

45:53Joel Edgerton:because it's great and that's not going to change. But again, C.1.

45:58Benedict Cumberbatch:Yeah. I just, I really... do we need to remake everything? I don't know.

46:08Chris Hewitt:Because capitalism. I'm going to save us a lot of time.

46:10Benedict Cumberbatch:Okay.

46:10Chris Hewitt:I'm just going to play every conversation we've had about one of these movies. Yes.

46:15Benedict Cumberbatch:That's good.

46:16Chris Hewitt:Just drop it in. Yeah, we're going to remake that, but in live action.

46:19Benedict Cumberbatch:Or maybe we just put in a link every time. It's like, A link? We just talked about that. Hey, look up episode 500 for the full runt or whatever.

46:28Chris Hewitt:Insert Helen monologue here. Have you ever thought of having stuff printed out and then

46:33Benedict Cumberbatch:on a card that I could just give to people and then you just

46:35Chris Hewitt:hand out to people like oh this is Helen's views on

46:39Benedict Cumberbatch:yeah but what if I got them mixed up like I hand someone my rant about Joker when I mean to hand them my rant about Cards Against Humanity

46:45Joel Edgerton:but like Helen Against Humanity and you just hand out the cards of your screen Helen Against Hollywood women versus Hollywood oh my god if only someone had written a book about that if only did you say Women Against Hollywood did you just get

46:55Chris Hewitt:the name of your own book

46:56Benedict Cumberbatch:no I was working my way to oh where are you now

46:58Chris Hewitt:that's right it was a progression that's right because it's not like me and James we have a deep knowledge of that book even down to the title in fact some might say especially the title

47:10Benedict Cumberbatch:yeah some probably wouldn't say much more than that though

47:13Chris Hewitt:um ah we're out of time

47:15Benedict Cumberbatch:okay that was a Thomas Kale film who of course was Hamilton's director so he's now stepping up to live action adaptations of of Lin-Manuel Miranda songs for Moana

47:30Chris Hewitt:it's all connected it is all connected It's all ties together. I still haven't seen the first Moana.

47:34Joel Edgerton:Have you not? You know the songs obviously very well. Yeah. Oh, I love, love, love, love. It's great. It is wonderful. I saw and liked Moana 2. Do you know what? I've never seen Moana 2. It's fine.

47:47Chris Hewitt:We've just become best friends.

47:50Benedict Cumberbatch:It's almost like between you, you make one qualified film. Almost.

47:55Chris Hewitt:You complete me. I do.

47:57Joel Edgerton:You're welcome.

48:00Chris Hewitt:It's not your fault.

48:02Joel Edgerton:it's not your fault and other songs here it's not your fault it is your fault I want to talk about Ebelin specifically The Remarkable Life of Ebelin which I reviewed for Empire which was the documentary which came out oh god was it last year the year before last year last year yeah so this was the documentary about Matt Steen who was the Norwegian teenager who had had Duchenne sort of muscular dystrophy and after he died they found out that he'd lived this incredible second life in World of Warcraft something I know a certain amount about and the documentary kind of they got all of the chat logs of the conversations he'd had with his friends and they dramatized it's a beautiful beautiful film if you haven't seen it it's on Netflix it's wonderful and you see this entire life that he lived in the game and the friends he made and the dramas that unraveled and it's just incredible because after he died his parents got all these messages from all these people and they were like well Matt didn't have many friends who are these people and they were all the friends he'd made in the game and it's wonderful and it uses the game engines you see all the conversations animated through the World of Warcraft game engine.

49:02Joel Edgerton:But this is being made into a film by Morton Tilden and it's going to star Stephen Graham, Charlie Plummer, Tony Collette, Anthony Hopkins, Ilibesa Merced, and Macy Stella. And oh my God, I'm so excited to see this.

49:13Benedict Cumberbatch:So we think it's Charlie Plummer as Evelyn, as it were. Yes. Himself. And then maybe Stephen Graham, Tony Collette as his parents.

49:22Joel Edgerton:That would make sense, yeah.

49:23Benedict Cumberbatch:And presumably everyone else in the game.

49:25Joel Edgerton:And how are they going to do it? Because like I say, in the documentary, they use the official World of Warcraft game engine to kind of animate the animated sequences. I would imagine that's quite a niche thing to do. I would imagine they'll probably go the more fantastical CG animated route, but hopefully with a nod to that aesthetic.

49:42Benedict Cumberbatch:Yeah, I think there has to be, doesn't there?

49:44Joel Edgerton:Yeah, but they'll just sort of jazz it up so it looks a little bit less lo-fi. But yeah, it's just such a lovely story. And I mean, there's so much going on at the moment about the damage that technology does to young people and all of these various things. And all of that stuff is true. But it's lovely to see here, like, computers and games and stuff being used as a form of connection and in a positive light. And it's a really uplifting story. It's really, really, really good.

50:08Benedict Cumberbatch:Speaking of connection, there was a new trailer for Project Hail Mary.

50:14Joel Edgerton:There was.

50:15Benedict Cumberbatch:I'll be honest.

50:15Joel Edgerton:Controversial trailer.

50:16Benedict Cumberbatch:If you haven't read the book, I wouldn't watch it. Yeah, because the massive twist from the book is absolutely ruined by the trailer. Like, the opening of this one as well. It's hinted at in the last trailer. If you haven't seen that, don't go out and watch it. Right. But it's fully front and center of this one. Absolutely.

50:37Joel Edgerton:It is fully nude in this particular trailer. Andy Weir apparently has signed off on this, saying that it's about getting people's bums on seats by making it more exciting. But I would say, if you're going to have a big old twist, maybe don't put it in the trailer. I didn't know that that was meant to be a twist. Yeah. What's meant to be a twist? Well, we can't say, because that would be spoiler-rific for people listening.

50:54Benedict Cumberbatch:We would be the problem.

50:54Joel Edgerton:We'd be complicit. it is the twist that ryan gosling's in it yes that is the twist yeah so what's the film about

51:00Benedict Cumberbatch:so the film is about basically earth is experiencing a crisis um the sun is sort of fading right and and so are a bunch of other stars nearby and there's just one star where the sun isn't fading right so earth none of that's in the trailer i know but this is okay this is basic stuff. So Earth wants to send a mission to this one sun to see what they've got that we don't have.

51:27Joel Edgerton:And this is the only star that isn't.

51:29Benedict Cumberbatch:Yes. And save the life of everyone on the planet. So basically, Earth has to figure out a way to get someone to this one star a while away, figure out what they've got that we don't have, and essentially bring that back or figure out a way for us to do the same thing. and then some stuff happens and this trailer essentially gives away a good 70 % of that stuff

51:56Joel Edgerton:never show people the stuff

51:58Benedict Cumberbatch:don't show the stuff

51:59Joel Edgerton:but if you don't show people the stuff

52:00Chris Hewitt:they won't go see the film

52:02Joel Edgerton:maybe they should there's enough in the setup and the baby goose to make people go and see the film I don't think you needed to it's too late, I've seen everything nobody needed that I feel like

52:17Benedict Cumberbatch:I feel like there could have been you could even have given away one of the things we're tiptoeing around without giving away the other one

52:22Joel Edgerton:yeah the other one

52:23Benedict Cumberbatch:but they've which is a big one given away the two big things in the film I think have they so basically if you haven't seen the trailers don't watch them yes

52:31Joel Edgerton:under no circumstances

52:32Benedict Cumberbatch:but as someone who's read the book and did watch them I can tell you it's looking real good and you should go to the cinema on opening weekend

52:37Chris Hewitt:so you still think the film looks good yes oh yeah I do yeah absolutely I agree

52:40Benedict Cumberbatch:I have an issue with the trailers not the film

52:42Chris Hewitt:Lord and Miller it looks good alright Okay. But I, who have not read the book, did not know that there were twists, let alone that there were twists given away in the trailer. So you learn something new every day. Twice, if you're on this podcast. Shall we shamelessly plug the new issue without being an episode of the shameless plug?

53:04Joel Edgerton:I mean, you almost don't need to because of the nature of the new issue, which is Christopher Nolan's The Odyssey. The internet has been aflame for the past week because we have interviews and pictures and frankly, just information about this film, which has not existed before because Nick DeSemmian was on set of The Odyssey. He has spoken at length to Christopher Nolan and Matt Damon and many other wonderful people.

53:26Benedict Cumberbatch:For what, 10 years or so?

53:27Joel Edgerton:Yeah, exactly that. He got lost on the way back. It did take him a decade to get back to the office, but it's all good. I didn't think about work. I honestly What's sending Nick? I mean I agree with you

53:35Chris Hewitt:To build a giant horse Put it outside Syncope Productions HQ

53:40Joel Edgerton:Yeah And they just took it inside They just took it inside Without questioning it And then Nick was the face Who launched a thousand ships

53:46Chris Hewitt:He climbed out

53:47Benedict Cumberbatch:Is that how that works?

53:48Chris Hewitt:That's exactly how it works And yet You know what Nick's Achilles heel is? His Achilles heel His elbow Oh

53:54Benedict Cumberbatch:It's his vulnerable spot

53:57Chris Hewitt:But yeah He climbed out Spooked to Chris Nolan Disguised as an intern Yeah and here we are. I'm worried someone might take this seriously.

54:06Joel Edgerton:Whatever it takes. Empire really do go to extraordinary lengths to get their exclusive. Empire steal quotes

54:11Chris Hewitt:from Chris Nolan's mouth. It's not how it happened

54:14Joel Edgerton:of course. No, but it is very, very exciting. Yes. It's a wonderful feature. Wonderful. And frankly, one of the most anticipated films in development.

54:21Benedict Cumberbatch:Absolutely. And that's just the lead story in the 2026 preview. There's other stuff in there.

54:25Joel Edgerton:Many, many wonderful things including our big, or I should say my big interview with James Cameron. Although I will say I didn't do an awful lot. So I turned up and I gave to him or presented him with many questions sent him by our readers. So I was essentially the reader's mouthpiece. You were a conduit. I was a conduit. I did very little actual work. Which is your favorite kind. It's my favorite kind of feature. Absolutely. I didn't prevent any of the questions. I spoke to him. I left. It was brilliant. But he was a delight and he was fabulous. And he answered many, many questions, including one about the sound of the pulse rifle in Aliens, which had me squeeing.

54:56Joel Edgerton:It was very, very, very funny. How the fuck did that question get chosen? I mean, I may have seen it and immediately went, I am asking that.

55:03Chris Hewitt:There are things people actually want to know about James Cameron's movies and that question got through.

55:09Joel Edgerton:Do not, do not diss the M41A Pulse Rifle. Thank you very much, Chris. Oh my God. It is the king of the movie Armory.

55:16Chris Hewitt:Oh my God. I'm looking forward to skipping that answer. But the rest of it, I'm sure is terrific. And there's loads of other stuff inside the issue. What else is inside the issue? I can't remember.

55:26Benedict Cumberbatch:There's Toy Story 5 news. There's...

55:29Chris Hewitt:That'll get them buying it.

55:30Benedict Cumberbatch:Hey, it might. Coyote versus Acme. Send help, your beloved, as I said, goat boy. Sam Raimi is back.

55:38Chris Hewitt:That's right.

55:39Benedict Cumberbatch:We've got A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms, James. Woo-hoo! Yeah, Daredevil Born Again. Many, many more. Mandalorian and Grogu. My Beloved Hamnet, which is freaking fantastic. The Bride is in there. There's a piece looking back at Pee-wee's Big Adventure. It's all good. It's all good.

55:56Joel Edgerton:It is a fantastic issue with the magazine, it has to be said.

55:59Chris Hewitt:We will be doing a deep dive into that issue in the next episode of our new regular podcast. Shameless plug, Nick and I will be sitting down and talking about his Chris Nolan adventure and all the other stuff that's inside the issue as well, including the stuff in my section that is brilliant. Just don't ask me to name what it is. Journalism!

56:21Chris Hewitt:All good, evil and virtual news agents. Go, go now. Actually, no, listen to this podcast and then go.

56:28Joel Edgerton:Well, you can do both at once because we're in their ears. We can. Yeah, they can go to the news agent while listening to this podcast. Yes. Buy the issue.

56:34Chris Hewitt:What else can we make and do?

56:35Benedict Cumberbatch:Multitasking.

56:36Chris Hewitt:Go to McDonald's and get me a McSpicy. Don't do that. But not the new weird world heist one that has some pineapple on it and a bit of bacon and some cheese. I don't want that one. I want the proper McSpicy. Just have something like actual proper food.

56:50Benedict Cumberbatch:Maybe have like a vegetable.

56:52Chris Hewitt:We need actual proper food. A, there's lettuce on the McSpicy. Yeah. And B, it's really, really tasty. I mean

56:58Benedict Cumberbatch:and

56:59Chris Hewitt:let me just tell you it's a real white knuckler that's all I'm gonna say

57:02Benedict Cumberbatch:oh no

57:03Chris Hewitt:what else can we make them do the people who are listening to this dance monkey dance dance dance oh yeah that'd be great okay if you're listening to this podcast right now do the Watusi

57:13Benedict Cumberbatch:does anyone know what the Watusi is I don't think I know what the Watusi is stop for a second

57:18Chris Hewitt:watch the Blues Brothers fast forward to the bit where they go to Ray Charles' place then they do shake a tail feather at one point in that they do the Watusi watch what that is and then do it

57:30Joel Edgerton:I'll wait this is another listener question for another day best dance sequences in movies

57:36Dylan Southern:ooh

57:36Joel Edgerton:ooh that's a good okay

57:38Chris Hewitt:ask us that question for a future episode of the podcast alright should we get money from them can you I don't think

57:46Benedict Cumberbatch:we can do that ethically

57:46Chris Hewitt:if I give them my bank account details no I definitely

57:50Benedict Cumberbatch:wouldn't do that

57:50Chris Hewitt:what if I read out the long number of my cart no I wouldn't do that either is that bad

57:55Benedict Cumberbatch:no

57:55Chris Hewitt:accompanied by my pet's name and my mum's maiden name yeah we'll go full now you see me alright well that's available to buy the magazine and you should yeah I recommend it very very highly indeed should we have some reviews or another interview no let's have another interview

58:11Benedict Cumberbatch:hurrah

58:11Chris Hewitt:Train Dreams is out this week on Netflix and it's a lovely lyrical movie about a man named Robert Grenier who is played by Joel Edgerton you know him he's been in movies and in fact at one point he was going to maybe adapt this himself a few years ago, but he didn't. Instead, it fell into Clint Bentley, who has adapted it. It's a rather beautiful movie. Also stars Felicity Jones and William H. Macy and Kerry Condon. You man's in a church, boss. And it's very, very good indeed. And it was on the LFF. And during that, I spoke to Bentley and Edgerton. Now, sadly, I couldn't make it into the London hotel room where they were to speak to them face to face.

58:54Chris Hewitt:So we did it over Zoom and sound quality may not be that brilliant. I'm going to try and do what I can. But the interview was very good, especially the bits where they spoke. Here they are. Joel Edgerton, Clint Bentley. Enjoy. It's been quite the journey since January for you with this movie, I would say.

59:15Helen O'Hara:Yeah, we sort of popped our head up at Sundance. And then sort of, you know, disappeared for a minute just to kind of reemerge at Toronto, knowing that there was a wonderful love for the film and a plan to kind of bring it out in November. So we kind of, yeah, we showed it and got a lot of good experience out of Sundance.

59:42Dylan Southern:Yeah, it feels like it's finally, like, you feel like it's being reintroduced to the world and people are, you have so many more people interacting with it. It's really lovely.

59:53Chris Hewitt:And have things changed much since January? Because I know that you added the rather wonderful Nick Cave song at the end of the film, also called Train Dreams, of course. Did you take the chance, Clint, to tweak anything else about the movie? Or is it basically what we saw at Sundance?

1:00:11Dylan Southern:i did take the chance to tweak some things i think there and and we went i i was showing joel we we had a couple of notes that we wanted to hit they're minor things that i don't think um maybe anybody at most people wouldn't even notice but uh but they're just those little things that like you know you as a filmmaker you always want to make sure that the the stitching is kind of invisible um and they're those little things that like uh just just make the process on a very subtle level better for the audience.

1:00:41Helen O'Hara:Joel, did you notice any changes? I noticed it's now set in space, which is weird. That's the big part. We've set it. We just realized space is really popular at the moment.

1:00:53Chris Hewitt:I thought Space Train Dreams was a good title change, by the way.

1:00:57Helen O'Hara:No, I mean, yes, I noticed a couple of tiny differences, but again, it hasn't really changed the day and night of the film it's just um yeah when a couple of them were things that actually

1:01:11Dylan Southern:like joel's like what if that what if he held on that shot a moment long and things like that you know that i was like oh yeah just when you get to see it with an audience like that it just gives you a perspective but the good news is like uh it it did it did it played very well at sundance and

1:01:28Chris Hewitt:there wasn't much that had to be changed how fraught was the race to sundance i mean was it very much the print is still wet when you when you get there or or had you finished it in plenty

1:01:39Helen O'Hara:of time yeah were you tripping over the airport and dropping a brown canister in the old days

1:01:44Dylan Southern:yeah i mean we definitely worked up on it until the last minute just because it was such a quick kind of edit process once we found out that we got into sundance we got into sundance with a working cut um and so you know like the opening that got accepted by sun the film that got accepted by Sundance had a completely different opening than, than what played at Sundance, you know? Um, and, um, and so it was very much still in progress. Um, but, uh, and then we were doing things at the end, like, you know, we were recording, I was up in Calgary with Will Patton recording that VO on a weekend because he was shooting a, uh, some television show.

1:02:26Dylan Southern:And, um, And that was like a couple of weeks before Sundance. But everything like I, you know, I felt good about, and we all as a team felt good about the film we were bringing there. And so it was definitely on a quick timeline, but nothing felt rushed in terms of creative decisions.

1:02:43Helen O'Hara:You know, that's amazing. When you find out you get in the first room, you're like, great.

1:02:47Dylan Southern:Shit. Oh, shit. Yeah.

1:02:52Chris Hewitt:You're like a, you're like a swan serene in the surface, but paddling furiously beneath.

1:02:56Dylan Southern:But it does force, you can't spend too much time, like, you know, second guessing decisions. You know, you have to follow your gut and it's sometimes better in that way.

1:03:07Chris Hewitt:Absolutely. The Will Patton voiceover is extraordinary. I know he also did the audiobook version as well. Joel, obviously you didn't have Will Patton on set narrating it. This is such a wonderful, poetic, and yet also novelistic treatment of a single character. What was playing in your head? Because, you know, Robert is not a very outgoing character, a very internal character, shall we say. So did you have a voiceover playing in your head as you were playing many of your scenes where he's very, very quiet?

1:03:43Helen O'Hara:I did have the confidence and the solace knowing that it would be there to help the audience. not just help the audience sort of guide us a little bit through Robert's journey, but also bolster or support the ability for me to not have to have words or expression for certain moments because I think what I love about the character is he's one of these people who presumes not to dominate a conversation. he's an observant person quiet and stoic and And he even feels reluctant to express himself about some of the most important things in his life. I think there's so many people in the world like this.

1:04:37It's a celebration of an ordinary life in many ways and the finding of a heroic aspect to an anomaly insignificant passenger in life.

1:04:52Helen O'Hara:and I just sort of trusted each scene and each moment, knowing that this is so much of what I'm like. I think I play a bit of a character when I'm usually on tour, especially pre-COVID promoting movies. I realised I sort of play a character. You know, I'm more introverted than I appear to most people. and I'm actually more comfortable being more like that now than I used to be. I used to try and tune up my personality for everybody in a social environment, but really there's more of Robert in me than I would have cared to admit in the past.

1:05:38Chris Hewitt:Well, it's interesting, isn't it, because you're doing something like this and this is, you know, podcasts, talk shows, things like that. It is such an unnatural thing to be brought into a hotel room, plonked in front of a laptop and then told talk for 20 minutes about that movie you made a year and a half ago it's it's such a strange thing so you know i'm fascinated by how people do it i'm glad people do it because if this was 20 minutes of silence if i was interviewing robert this would be a very very different conversation but it is such an interesting thing to do so how do you get yourself in that mindset for for something like this well i mean i i love the talk i mean clint

1:06:13Helen O'Hara:For example, Clint and I, a lot of the preparation for this movie, you know, a lot of my preparation, apart from all the physical aspects and all that stuff, is one thing. But the most important thing is the contemplation and the conversations around the human, I mean, the character, but the human relationships, you know. How do we relate to each other? And we had many, many phone conversations where we would talk about the material and the character and the relationships.

1:06:44Dylan Southern:And life in general.

1:06:45Helen O'Hara:Yeah, and it's part of the excitement for me is that it's like all the homework, all the preparation can be extremely heady and verbal and theoretic and all these things. And then the work itself becomes instinctual and abstract

1:07:10Helen O'Hara:and from a place of instinct and gut, you know, all of those conversations then become something you put out of your mind and then you go to a place and you breathe it in and you breathe it out and you film it. And that becomes special, the way that you harness that. And then in the aftermath, we were saying earlier, actually before we got on with you is it becomes a joy to talk about because now in this world where movies do get sort of just, they often just disappear into the world, is that this is our time to share it with people, to talk about what it means to them. And I think this movie, more than anything else, I'm really proving that I am a very verbal person there, is it's exciting to have a movie like this more than any other movie I've really been in, where it means something personal for everybody that watches it.

1:08:13Helen O'Hara:They reach in and they reflect and they pull out their own stuff from it.

1:08:18Chris Hewitt:Clint, in terms of those conversations that you had with Joel about getting involved in this in the first place, what were the first conversations like? When did you first realize that you were on the same page about this?

1:08:29Dylan Southern:very quickly i i think you know what we first talked about he he got the script and he was shooting something in chicago and i flew up to see him and i remember we just hung out one night and had breakfast the next morning talking about it we were talking about our own lives we were talking about uh having kids and and and the push and pull of wanting to be with your family and wanting to and wanting to work on something you care about and it was just very quickly it wasn't it just felt like we were having conversations about it rather than interviewing each other. We were interviewing each other, but it just felt very natural and very loose.

1:09:10Dylan Southern:And it felt like we were speaking the same language very quickly to where when I left that meeting, I was like, oh shit, I really hope he does it because it's going to be hard to...

1:09:20Helen O'Hara:It felt like one of the most natural processes for me. You know, I feel like... It just felt like it wasn't even a case of, let me think about this and I'll get back to you. Or waiting around going, I hope Clint calls me and says, if you like me enough to do the film. It felt like I think we left that meeting going, you know, this is all right, we're going to do this. It's just how we went.

1:09:44Chris Hewitt:Yeah. And I guess as well, naturally you gravitate as filmmakers towards Robert, who is a man, as you say, works away from home an awful lot. away from his loved ones, away from his family an awful lot. And I imagine that's something that just naturally resonates with you. Was that the case, first of all? And did you also resonate with the idea that this was a man who was watching the world just accelerate past him, that he's almost overtaken, almost left behind by the sheer speed of progress, which I think is something a lot of us are thinking about nowadays with AI and whatnot. Both of those aspects, did they appeal to you both?

1:10:24Helen O'Hara:I feel like that's me right now, looking at what's happening all around us right now with AI. You know, five, ten years ago, watching all my nieces on TikTok. But now thinking also wrestling with those ideas around how do I reconcile all that, knowing I have four-year-old kids? Do I stay on top of things or do I let it pass me by? I'm watching younger generations of actors doing marvellous things and telling these incredible stories. And I'm like, how connected am I? And how do I stay connected? Or do I let myself become a bit of a virtual hermit? But definitely those ideas of, I mean, the pure hinge points in this movie that aren't very sort of typical, but to me are so profound, is falling in love, starting a family, and the fears around losing the most treasured things in your life and how would you recover are things that were very much on my mind and very much terrifying but accessible for me.

1:11:37Dylan Southern:Yeah, I think the family aspect we both talked a lot about and I referenced a second ago, of like just feeling very connected to Robert in that way of, you know, spinning. We love what we do as filmmakers. And yet it, it takes a toll on the family and you're sacrificing time with the people you love the most. And that's tough. The, the, the whole like, uh, time passing you by was something that that's what struck me in reading the book. When I, when I started thinking about it as adapting it, it felt very universal and timeless and felt like, yeah, even though it's this guy who's a logger in the early 1900s, it felt very acute to what we're going through now.

1:12:17Dylan Southern:And it's something very timeless too. Also like you can, Ovid talks about it. You know, it's like dealing with this aspect of being a human and reckoning at a certain point with the fact that you're probably in all likelihood as a human being, not going to be remembered and your life is going to pass away. and any outward influence on this world is going to be wiped away of your life. And so what do you do with that? How do you reckon with that? And how do you either make peace with it or come to some understanding with it? And then where do you put your energy and where do you put your love

1:13:01Helen O'Hara:once you do reckon with that?

1:13:04Chris Hewitt:But do you feel as artists that you are making something that will... people will remember you for that will outlive undone with i don't want to i don't want to put both of you in an early grave but will outlive you like that you'll have a legacy after you're gone and it is trained dreams and it is all the other films you've made i once joked that i you

1:13:23Helen O'Hara:know as i was wrestling this idea of being more present and and and realizing how valuable my my interpersonal relationships were you know friendships but more importantly my relationship and my family is that I nearly let all of that pass me by at times. I thought, am I ever going to give up my first love of work that's keeping me from the potential of having a family? Because at the end of the day, I said to somebody, this is when DVDs were a thing and they're all gone already, is that my life is just going to be a bunch of dusty DVDs these on a shelf you know like i'm not re-watching these things over and over again they're not for me but i do hope that the ones i do stand the test of time and that they have meaning and if they do stand the test of time because they have meaning then they're going to mean something for people in the future but i'm not hanging my hat on that it's not why i'm doing it for my own reward of the process.

1:14:37Helen O'Hara:I don't know that I have any kind of pinch of God-like complex in me, like I want to be remembered or written up in the adults of history, but, you know, I'm no, you know, there are big names in the history of filmmakers and actors that will be remembered forever as icons. I'm not striving to be one of those. even. But I have to remind myself to be present with the things that are important to me because I am a hero to my kids. Right. And they're mini heroes to me and that's I think what the film reminds me of. Value is making use of the time you have while you're here because who cares what people think or whether they tell stories about you in the future.

1:15:26Helen O'Hara:You're dead. Who cares? But there's a bunch of people that care about me right now. You know?

1:15:33Chris Hewitt:Okay, that was Clint Bentley and Joel Edgerton talking about Train Dreams. Did you know that there is a Train Dreams official Train Dreams tie-in sleep story available on the Calm app right now? I know this because my wife uses the Calm app every night, and I have fallen asleep several times to the soothing tones of Joel Edgerton cutting down a tree.

1:15:59Joel Edgerton:But you don't need that because as Boyd Hilton would attest, this particular podcast does the same job. I can't. If I listen to this podcast, I'm too busy laughing. Yeah, Boyd less so. He just falls asleep. At the hilarity. Night, Boyd. Sweet dreams.

1:16:16Benedict Cumberbatch:Okay, so cutting down trees. I mean, I can imagine the sound of like trains in the distance I actually find quite soothing.

1:16:22Chris Hewitt:That's in there as well.

1:16:23Benedict Cumberbatch:Oh, okay.

1:16:24Chris Hewitt:There's some trains and there's some walking around. There's some leafiness. You have Will Patton narrating it because he narrated the audiobook and that's also being used here as well. But you do get dialogue excerpts from the movie. It's a first. They haven't done this before. It's a brand new thing. The sounds of deforestation. As Saruman Garfunkel once said, yes. Yeah. Well, I don't know because the problem is I've genuinely never gotten to the end of it because I'm out like a light. after Edgerton has felled his fourth tree, I'm gone. You find chainsaws quite soothing then. Yeah, it's like when he shouts, Timber!

1:16:59Chris Hewitt:But it's not, it's a little more soothing than the Optimus Prime sleep story. And it's definitely more soothing than the Venom sleep story. What? Written by and narrated by Tom Hardy. And yes, he does the voice. And so you're trying to get off, not like that, to sleep. Go to sleep, Benny!

1:17:16James Dyer:Go to sleep, Benny! That's all I talk about today.

1:17:18Chris Hewitt:And you go, what? No, why? Why?

1:17:22Benedict Cumberbatch:What is happening?

1:17:24Chris Hewitt:And yet my wife, out like a light. Are we, is this real?

1:17:29Benedict Cumberbatch:Yeah. What's happening now?

1:17:31Chris Hewitt:If you want to fall asleep to Fennam, I can recommend Let There Be Carnage. You will sleep for a month. Anyway, Train Dreams. Yes. They've turned the Calm app Sleep Story into a film. Amazing. You'll be delighted to know and it's out on Netflix right now. Clint Bentley directs Joel Edgerton stars we review except that neither of these two idiots have seen it I'm so sorry unbelievable I really want to see it

1:17:58Benedict Cumberbatch:but I couldn't get to the screening during the LFF

1:18:00Joel Edgerton:I tried but I fell asleep instantly and therefore was on the LFF you monster the sleep story

1:18:06Chris Hewitt:is very very good so is the film so is the film

1:18:08Joel Edgerton:based on a novella

1:18:09Chris Hewitt:by Dennis Johnson and it tells the story of Robert Grenier who is a mountain man he's a mountain man he's not full Jeremiah Johnson but he's a simple soul This is back in the oldie times, but it's in color, not black and white. And he goes off and fells trees. And it's a very dangerous world into which violence can erupt without thinking or without warning. And he has a wife and a little baby at home. This wife is Felicity Jones. And this baby is, I don't know, probably twins. That's what they do in these movies. And it's about all the things that happen to him. and it's been compared to Terrence Malick in that it is very poetic and very lyrical filmmaking.

1:18:51Chris Hewitt:There's some absolutely beautiful shots in this. Wonderful performances. This is, I think, a dark horse in the Oscar race, but I wouldn't be surprised to see Edgerton get nominated for Best Actor because he's terrific in it. And you never know, it might well make it into the Best Picture running as well.

1:19:12Benedict Cumberbatch:fantastic yeah

1:19:13Chris Hewitt:I'm not sure what we've given us yet but I would be in the four star camp

1:19:17Benedict Cumberbatch:okay

1:19:17Chris Hewitt:for Train Dreams and the Calm app five stars as far as I can tell okay

1:19:23Benedict Cumberbatch:five's these yeah other apps are available yeah

1:19:27Chris Hewitt:but they're not as good they're not as calming yeah and it's probably be a Black Friday deal I bet there is yeah

1:19:32Benedict Cumberbatch:oh boy

1:19:32Chris Hewitt:go to calm jeez wow I don't even know what's the website calm.app calm it probably is calm.app go to oh cam.com go to cam.com and use the code Empire Podcast to get fuck all discount yeah because this is a free ad for them apparently yeah anyway should we talk about Wicked for Good I think we probably should

1:19:57Benedict Cumberbatch:yeah

1:19:57Chris Hewitt:should we talk about it for a determinate amount of time rattle in for good because that would be a very long podcast it would

1:20:03Joel Edgerton:as if it's a very long film so that's you know appropriate

1:20:06Chris Hewitt:Jimbo yes tell us about Wicked for Good please but for about 5 minutes for about 5 minutes rather than just

1:20:11Joel Edgerton:filibustering until the end of time.

1:20:13Chris Hewitt:Of course. Although, again, we'll help you sleep.

1:20:14Joel Edgerton:Try and fight your best instincts. Boydie, I'm about to review Wicked. Now would be a good time to drift off. Does Boydie not like Wicked? I don't know, actually. We've not discussed it.

1:20:24Benedict Cumberbatch:What do you people talk about?

1:20:26Joel Edgerton:Yeah, it's hard to say.

1:20:26Benedict Cumberbatch:Why did you single him out?

1:20:27Joel Edgerton:I'm just saying that if he was going to... It doesn't matter. I'm just helping him go to sleep. I'm performing a public service. Anyway, this is the second half of John Tew's adaptation of the Stage Music Court. Now, I have gone on record on this podcast before, saying I do not necessarily enjoy the Wicked Stage musical, partly because I find the staging of it, the visuals, a little bit flat, but also because I think the problem with this is, as with a great many musicals, is that the musical bangers are front-loaded in this. So once you get to the intermission, you've essentially covered all the good bits and can probably go home and save yourself some time.

1:21:01Joel Edgerton:Now, I didn't expect to like Wicked 4-1, and I really, really did, because I think what it improves upon is you've got all the bangers, but Ariana Grande and Cynthia Erivo are fantastic, they have great chemistry together it's really fun, it's fizzy, it's poppy and the visual spectacle addresses all the issues I had with the stage play so loved the first half, would have given it a solid four stars, had a really really good time I had reservations going into this for the aforementioned reasons and unfortunately those reservations remain for me here because musically the second half just doesn't do it, there's one I would say I wouldn't even call it a banger There's a good song in it, but the rest of them, even the new ones, they're fine.

1:21:41Joel Edgerton:They're okay. There's nothing wrong with them. But they're not ones you're going to be singing on the way home. They're not really going to stick into your mind. And then also, the natural plot of this, it continues off in the first one. Elphaba is now persona non grata. She's been cast out by the wonderful wizard. Not so wonderful, because he's essentially an authoritarian dictator. We're in a situation where... He can't even do magic. He can't even do magic. Fierro's become like head of the Green Guards, who are like the secret police. You've got Michelle Yeoh sort of pulling strings to try and sabotage a sort of PR campaign, like a smear campaign against Elphaba.

1:22:15Joel Edgerton:And the wizard is basically being a dictator. So it's not fun for anyone. Indeed, yes. And Elphaba's sort of crusade, her sort of petter crusade to free the animals isn't going particularly well either. So tonally, it's very different to the first half. The first half is very fun and it's fizzy. This is quite moody. It's a bit glum. It's a bit downbeat. but I think the main problem with this is any time Grande and Erivo are on screen this story is fantastic and it's electric and it's genuinely hilarious but there's only really two moments or standout moments in this film where they are on screen together both of which are brilliant by the way but for the rest of it you're just sitting there waiting for them to come back together and it's just a bit dull it's two hours and I want to say what 20 minutes?

1:22:59Joel Edgerton:30 minutes? Two and a half? Yeah a bit less than two and a half Yeah feels longer Anyway For good in fact It feels like it goes on for good. And I found it a quite frustrating and a little bit tedious experience. And then, of course, you have the Wizard of Oz-ness of it. I'm not going to spoil the story, but suffice it to say, there is an amount of crossover between this and the Wizard of Oz towards the end. It's dealt with in a very specific way. I'm being very, very oblique here. It's dealt with in a specific way on stage, which works. They use that same tack in the film. I think it works less well.

1:23:32Joel Edgerton:that said I'm very very glad we didn't get what I was worried we'd get which is a CGI Judy Garland so we don't have that we've dodged that bullet but other than that this just I mean it's just a lesser it's just a lesser part of the story unfortunately so if you love the first half you will maybe enjoy this half but if you're hoping that they're going to repeat the glory of that then

1:23:51Benedict Cumberbatch:yeah it doesn't defy gravity in the same way I think that's it doesn't defy gravity in the same way I would agree with but I do think if you enjoyed the first one you're still going to enjoy this just because it is the continuation just because girls are the wonderful things she does because of yeah because of the wonderful things they do Cynthia and Ariana they're both absolutely terrific and I think their grasp on these characters are just so strong that any like you say anytime they're together it works but there are actually I think you're underselling how many scenes they have yeah I think there's the bit at the beginning in the room there's the bit in the village there's the bit in the Emerald City there's the bit in the end whoa spoilers

1:24:32Chris Hewitt:whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa I just said bits

1:24:36Benedict Cumberbatch:whoa

1:24:37Chris Hewitt:now people know there are bits and you said there's now people know there's an end which is explicitly not promised by the title so

1:24:43Benedict Cumberbatch:sorry

1:24:44Joel Edgerton:but there were the two I would say standout sequences where they are together and those are like the high points of the film like you live for those bits and they really do deliver there's one particular one which is genuinely very funny and it's really touching as well and like you can feel the chemistry between them like it's great but when they're not together

1:25:01Benedict Cumberbatch:I do think that the problem is yeah this one has more plot and has to spend a lot of time doing plot whereas the last one really just had vibes it's like we're at school I don't like you no I kind of like you okay cool you know that was literally pretty much the entire plot of the last one this one some stuff has to happen

1:25:22Chris Hewitt:it's compromised by having to be true to the Wizard of Oz I think and so certain characters have to suddenly do something to become that thing that you love and I'm not going to give anything away obviously we will be doing a spoiler special on this I hope we will be more more specific I can't promise anything

1:25:38Benedict Cumberbatch:maybe we'll go into the spoiler and just say I like that bit you know where the one I mean

1:25:42Chris Hewitt:I can't remember any of the character names for one thing that doesn't help so I'll be going that bit with that character

1:25:47Benedict Cumberbatch:Bok Nessa Rose I'm not a chicken

1:25:49Chris Hewitt:okay but you know there are moments where characters you can feel in being crowbarred into their Wizard of Oz you can counterparts

1:25:58Joel Edgerton:Because there are certainly a couple of characters who have vast personality transplants in this one, and it makes no sense whatsoever, but sure.

1:26:05Chris Hewitt:But I will say I'm a bit more with Helen than I am with you on this one, Jimbo. I thought it was very well staged. I like the two new songs, There's No Place Like Home and The Girl in the Bubble, which are, I would say, better than the existing songs in this. Jimbo's right on that. It does suffer from second act syndrome, and I don't understand why people who write the songs for these Broadway musicals just knock off at half time.

1:26:34Benedict Cumberbatch:Well, I think they've kind of gotten wise to this. So Hamilton, I don't think, has a second-act slump, actually. And something like Our Beloved Grindhog Day, I don't think has a second-half slump. No. And more recently, like Operation Mincemeat, they put a huge amount of effort into making sure the songs in the second half would be absolute bangers.

1:26:52Chris Hewitt:But why, and previously, did they just go, yeah, we're done, first half. Yeah. I think that's it. We've got their money now.

1:26:56Benedict Cumberbatch:I don't think it's ever been a conscious thing, but I do feel like people wanted a huge number before the interval, and sometimes that ended up being bigger than the song at the end of the show.

1:27:05Joel Edgerton:Which is true, because One Day More for Les Mis is absolutely the high point of that musical. But there are some good, like soliloquy, there's good stuff in the second half. There's good stuff. But the best stuff is definitely in the first half. Generally speaking.

1:27:15Benedict Cumberbatch:I think For Good is an incredible, incredible song, but it's much more of a ballad than a rabble rouser like Defying Gravity. so it's a different vibe and I think it is hard to kind of measure them against each other

1:27:29Joel Edgerton:I didn't loathe it I didn't have unadulterated loathing okay good but I definitely didn't love it did you not think it was wonderful no well put it this way they had lemonade popcorn at the screening which was disgusting but I ate it all because I was bored

1:27:42Benedict Cumberbatch:I was hungry so I ate it all

1:27:44Joel Edgerton:they would put anything

1:27:45Chris Hewitt:in front of you and you would just eat it I mean that's not untrue yeah I did hear it was particularly horrible it was vile horrible

1:27:52Benedict Cumberbatch:horrible sorry oh that's a character name I understand it now

1:27:56Chris Hewitt:wait the names those people people who worked in the film yeah and also I think that I think that as well staged as it is it is it's not as good as the first movie for me although it has some really really wonderful oh god I should stop saying that moments in it and there are some really inspired visuals in this film I would say also I think the big mistake is that they assume that we care about any of the other characters and I don't really. That's fair. You monster. I'm all about Glinda and Elphaba, baby. That's where I am. I enjoyed it. I enjoyed it. But I really, really loved the first one.

1:28:35Chris Hewitt:No, I enjoyed it as well. Oh, come on.

1:28:38Benedict Cumberbatch:That's harsh. That's way harsh. I really enjoyed this one as well.

1:28:42Chris Hewitt:All right. So three stars then for Wicked for Good. Next up is a film I have not yet seen. I'm desperate to see this, especially having heard what Helen had to say about it. It is the sequel to the glorious, demented action movie Sisu. And this is Sisu for good, isn't it? Hell's Bells.

1:28:58Benedict Cumberbatch:Sisu, Road to Revenge, actually.

1:29:01Chris Hewitt:I was close. That would have been a better Wicked subtitle. Yellow Brick Road to Revenge.

1:29:06Benedict Cumberbatch:Oh, there you go. That's the crossover everyone wanted.

1:29:10Chris Hewitt:How do you follow the Yellow Brick Road? That's a question answered by Wicked for Good.

1:29:14Benedict Cumberbatch:Okay. So, Sisu. So, if you remember the first film, the first film was about this gold prospector. who was picked on by Nazis. Which is never good. His name is Atami, not that it really matters because there's not a lot of talking in these films. He's played by Jorma Tomila, and I apologise to your Scandinavian listeners for getting their names wrong. And you may remember, there was a tiny bit of backstory mentioned in that film.

1:29:41Chris Hewitt:The tiniest, the tiniest bit of backstory.

1:29:44Benedict Cumberbatch:They mentioned that he had been a family man and that his family had been killed by the Red Army and that he had previously gone ape on the Red Army and had killed hundreds of Soviets. What? And then he had sort of faded into the landscape, gone off to be a gold prospector, leaving the world behind until the Nazis interrupted, right? And then he killed a bunch of Nazis, which was great. Ten out of ten, no-nots.

1:30:05Chris Hewitt:Gloriously inventive.

1:30:06Benedict Cumberbatch:So inventive, so gory, so visceral. Just incredible.

1:30:11Chris Hewitt:Yes, Yalmari Hlander, the director of this, and this as well. He was absolutely operating on, I'm guessing 25 cylinders at least.

1:30:20Benedict Cumberbatch:I think at least that many. So here the idea is, there's a tiny bit of history, which is that Finland ceded territory to the Soviet Union at the end of World War II. So the idea this time is that Atami's family farm was in that territory that was given to the USSR. So he crosses the border into Soviet territory on a personal mission of his own. It turns out that he's going back to his old family farm to try and retrieve what he can, everything essentially that remains of his family life, right? And bring it back to what is now Finland. As soon as he crosses the border, some telephones start ringing.

1:30:59Benedict Cumberbatch:And basically, Stephen Lang, yes, as a Soviet commander who was responsible for the murder of his family in the first place, and has been in a Siberian prison ever since, is released. and he's told, you created this legend, you're responsible for this, finish him. No pun intended. How are you spelling that? The pun is totally unheaded, yes. So he is sent off, and to be fair to him, he has the sense to pick up an army of goons before he attempts this mission.

1:31:31Chris Hewitt:Not enough.

1:31:31Benedict Cumberbatch:Not enough, not enough. Not even close to being enough. I don't want to spoil the film, but it is not enough goons. So essentially, just as our hero starts heading back towards the border, a bunch of people's turn up to end his life. It will not go well. This film is 89 minutes. Everything I've just described takes place in about the first five. Everything after that, up until the last minute and a half, maybe two minutes, is nonstop action. It is ridiculous.

1:32:05Chris Hewitt:I'm off to sea, Sisu Road to Revenge. You guys can, you know how to end a podcast, right?

1:32:09Benedict Cumberbatch:Probably.

1:32:10Chris Hewitt:Yeah. Oh, wait, it's not on until tomorrow. All right, I'm back.

1:32:13Benedict Cumberbatch:I mean, just, you know, there are bits in trucks. There are bits involving water. There are planes. There are motorcycles.

1:32:24Chris Hewitt:Imagine the cam-absleep story for this.

1:32:27Benedict Cumberbatch:It would be so uncamming. There is a train sequence. I just, I cannot describe to you some of the things this man does. There is a thing with a tank that I have not seen anyone do before. I was just having the best time throughout. There was so much clapping and jeering at the screen. That was just you? That was just me. It wasn't even other people in the screening. Honestly, just so, so fun. Very bad Maxie at times because it is much more kind of kinetic in the sense of traveling along the roads than last time. But so, so fun. And, you know, Tammy doesn't say a word. I think he said a couple of things last time.

1:33:06Benedict Cumberbatch:He says nothing this time.

1:33:08Chris Hewitt:Not a single word? Nothing. Wow.

1:33:10Benedict Cumberbatch:And Stephen Lang says a little bit more, but not a lot more, but just enough to give him a character so you're like, fuck you, I hate you. It's so good. I mean, look, does it have nuance, things to say about the world? Don't care. No, don't care. So fun. Violence. Grr, gore. Damn. Violence. Viscera.

1:33:31Joel Edgerton:Yeah, and you were watching that while I was watching Wicked for Good, and I couldn't have a feeling that you got the better deal there.

1:33:37Benedict Cumberbatch:Yeah, well, Well, I'd go and see Wicked for Good another night, to be fair. But yeah, it was super fun. I gave it four because, you know, five probably would require something more, I don't know, substantive. But I just had a super good time.

1:33:52Chris Hewitt:It sounds like a five. What you just said there, to quote you, violence, erg, arg, arg. I hope that's how you started your review, by the way. One thing I love about Helen is she's super intellectual, obviously incredible reader read that Empire of the Vampire Dawn the Empire of the Dawn

1:34:10Dylan Southern:I read it in a day it was amazing in the space of a day

1:34:12Chris Hewitt:this is like an 800 page book with a very small font I am not close to finishing it

1:34:18Joel Edgerton:but I am loving every second of it

1:34:20Benedict Cumberbatch:there are pictures though

1:34:21Chris Hewitt:James so far he's gone Empire of the

1:34:25Dylan Southern:he's excited about the next word of the title

1:34:27Chris Hewitt:the title is fantastic so far that's next week's reading for Jimbo no it's really good Helen's read that she is learned she knows she's the smartest person in most rooms she goes into obviously not this particular room but she's very very smart but she also loves a bit of the old ultraviolence as well within Helen are two wolves and they're both holding rocket launchers and that is terrific five stars then fuck it I'm going five five stars for a film I have not seen but based on that review alone film of the year Sisu for good.

1:35:05Joel Edgerton:Forgot the name.

1:35:07Chris Hewitt:It's unimportant what this film is called. Doesn't matter. If you see Sisu,

1:35:11Joel Edgerton:I saw Sisu.

1:35:13Chris Hewitt:We should all go see Sisu. Absolutely. Five stars in for Sisu Road to Revenge. What have I done? What have I done? Helen, we should warn people. It may be too late, but we should warn them about Playdate.

1:35:30Benedict Cumberbatch:Yes. So this dropped kind of unexpectedly in the sense that we forgot about it on Prime last week. This is the story of average dad played by Kevin James and his son who befriend a weird little boy and his weird giant dad played by Jack Reacher.

1:35:48Chris Hewitt:Yes.

1:35:49Benedict Cumberbatch:Once again, going by his non-dacteur, Alan Richson, for some reason. It doesn't work. He's clearly a Jack Reacher. Like, he looks like a Jack Reacher. Do you know what I mean? Anyway, so they befriend this odd new family who end up taking them on a crazy journey into adventure and action and traffic because it turns out people are trying to kill or capture this other little weird boy for reasons and some action goes down. It's not good.

1:36:21Chris Hewitt:Dreadful, unspeakable, unwatchable, apart from Jack Reacher being quite fun. at times.

1:36:27Benedict Cumberbatch:He is quite fun at times. He's trying some things.

1:36:30Chris Hewitt:He elevates it to one star.

1:36:32Benedict Cumberbatch:Wow. I mean, I would probably go two.

1:36:35Chris Hewitt:I don't know about that.

1:36:36Benedict Cumberbatch:But it wouldn't be a firm two.

1:36:40Chris Hewitt:It's a tentative two.

1:36:41Benedict Cumberbatch:It's a tentative two. There is something that happens at the end of this film that genuinely left me like jaw dropped and I'm like, did they just seriously do that for real? Yeah. That's a swing and a miss. It was no Sisu, Road to Revenge, let me tell you that.

1:36:56Chris Hewitt:I think a better director and this is directed by Luke Greenfield director of The Girl Next Door and the Rob Schneider comedy classic The Animal he also directed Let's Be Cops about 11 years ago and that was pretty good that was pretty good this is lamentable do not watch it if you are watching it right now stop why are you listening to a podcast whilst watching a movie that's weird but don't watch the film stop watching the movie step away from your TV and go do the Watusi

1:37:26Benedict Cumberbatch:there you go can't say fairer than that

1:37:29Chris Hewitt:somewhere between zero and two stars in for play date that's pretty much it for this week's Empire podcast folks except for one thing we have one more guest one more guest to bring you as you may know Now You See Me Now You Don't the third in the Now You See Me franchise and the first for some time is in cinemas right now it is a rollicking good time James agreed with me he gave it five stars last week he said it was the greatest time he has ever had. This is a direct quote. The greatest time I have ever had in a movie theater with or without lemonade popcorn. Yeah. Your words, not mine. It stars, of course, the four horsemen.

1:38:11Chris Hewitt:Jesse Eisenberg, Jesse Eisenberg, Isla Fisher, who's also in Playdate. We have Dave Franco. We have Woody Harrelson. But there's a new group of prospective horsemen. The Foles, I believe they're called. And they are just De Smith and Dominic Sessa and Ariana Greenblatt who you will know of course from films like Avengers Infinity War where she played the young Gamora she's also in Barbie Barbie where she played the young Barbie

1:38:40Benedict Cumberbatch:no

1:38:40Chris Hewitt:she's also she's also in Ahsoka where she played the young Ahsoka she did play the young Ahsoka

1:38:46Ariana Greenblatt:she genuinely did

1:38:47Chris Hewitt:she's also in Borderlands she's a rising star she's a rising star and she's very good in this as June I spoke to her in a London hotel room. They're always in a London hotel room.

1:38:57Benedict Cumberbatch:Amazing. It's almost like you live in London.

1:38:59Chris Hewitt:Yeah, and they come in to do junkets in London hotels.

1:39:02Benedict Cumberbatch:Yeah.

1:39:02Chris Hewitt:I hadn't put that together until now. That's the true magic, isn't it? But the real magic of this interview is the friends we made along the way. And I had a good time talking to Ariana Greenblatt. And here she is. Enjoy. Ariana, welcome to the Air Pro Podcast. How are you?

1:39:17James Dyer:I'm great. How are you?

1:39:18Chris Hewitt:I'm not too bad. I was just speaking to Isla and Rosamund. and they were talking about working with you guys. And Rosamund referred to the baby horsemen as the Folds.

1:39:28James Dyer:Yeah.

1:39:28Chris Hewitt:Is this a nickname that began on set?

1:39:31James Dyer:This is the unofficial official name of, I guess, the new generation of horsemen.

1:39:35Dylan Southern:Yeah.

1:39:36James Dyer:I think Justice was the one that really is riding for that name. I was okay with anything. I was like, you can call me whatever you want, Rosamund Pike. I will thank you afterwards.

1:39:49Chris Hewitt:Do you have a WhatsApp group? And if so, what is that WhatsApp group called? Is it called The Folds?

1:39:54James Dyer:It is called The Three Amigos if the Amiga was a pickpocketing thief. That's your WhatsApp group name? Yeah, that's me, Justice and Dom. That's our group chat name. And it stuck. It was a line from Jesse Eisenberg. And I was like, that's us. That's great.

1:40:13Chris Hewitt:The Three Amigos if...

1:40:15James Dyer:The Amiga was a pickpocketing. Okay. Yeah.

1:40:19Chris Hewitt:I mean, Fold is a lot simpler and shorter. Sure, yeah, if you want to go that route. No, totally.

1:40:23James Dyer:Just saying you can text him after this and say, guys. I think it's time to switch.

1:40:28Chris Hewitt:It's time to switch. Cool. Yeah. I'm in several WhatsApp groups. Yeah. Have we changed our names on a regular basis?

1:40:34James Dyer:I think I'm emotionally connected to that one, though.

1:40:36Chris Hewitt:Really?

1:40:37James Dyer:Yeah.

1:40:37Chris Hewitt:Yeah. And was that something that started on set? Yeah. Because it comes from a line from Chester.

1:40:41James Dyer:It comes from a line. So it was like the first week of filming, and that's what started it all.

1:40:46Chris Hewitt:Blimey, blimey Are you in another WhatsApp group? I can't believe we're talking about WhatsApp groups Are you in another one with the Horsemen or have they shunned you? Have they shut you guys out?

1:40:54James Dyer:We've definitely been shunned No, we had a whole group chat, I'm pretty sure, with everyone I could be wrong But there's so many side ones Like there's one with me, Isla, and Jesse I mean, me, Isla, and Justice And then there's me, Isla, Justice, Dom And then there's Justice and Dave and I And it's like they're all mixed up I just email Jesse whenever I need a friend

1:41:15Chris Hewitt:Yeah, Jesse doesn't strike me as a WhatsAppper.

1:41:17James Dyer:No, no. I feel like he's definitely an emailer.

1:41:21Chris Hewitt:Yeah, I've met Jesse quite a number of times, and he strikes me as a letter writer.

1:41:25James Dyer:I don't know if he's an emailer. Love that. Sending a letter. Maybe with an owl sending it to whoever. Yeah, an owl or a pigeon.

1:41:31Chris Hewitt:That seems to be Jesse's vibe. Totally. Pretty much. When was the first of the horsemen that you met? Because you spent a lot of time with Jesse in this film. Yeah. So was he the one that you met first, of the original crew?

1:41:45James Dyer:I think he was.

1:41:46Chris Hewitt:Yeah.

1:41:46James Dyer:I think he was, yeah. I met him outside of our trailer. I was very nervous, and he immediately started asking me about Broadway shows and musicals and plays that I like. And I was like, he's perfect and amazing. And then we had a whole group kind of cast rehearsal on a boat. And that was when I met Isla and Dave, and Dave came in. And, I mean, Ruben really, really wanted everybody to get to know each other and have that chemistry and have that bond. And so we had so many cast dinners and so many nights going to each other's apartments and all of that. So it quickly became a family, seamlessly.

1:42:23Chris Hewitt:Yeah. How did it start for you, this movie?

1:42:25James Dyer:How did it start? Yeah.

1:42:27Chris Hewitt:How did it come about?

1:42:29James Dyer:Well, I was in my room. And I received an email saying that they were making a third one. And I was like, well, that's cool. And I read the script. and I was told, but your character is like 20, 22, 24 even. She was written a lot older. I was 16 at the time. I was like, oh, so the chances are quite slim. What do I do about this? And I was like, why not? Let's just go for it. So I learned two magic tricks beforehand. I learn my scenes. I do my thing. I go into the room. I audition. I'm like, hey, guys, I have a couple magic tricks I wanted to show you. I show them. I'm wearing six-inch platform sneakers, baggy pants to cover as much as I can, to look and appear taller and or older.

1:43:16James Dyer:It was my whole strategy. But my stakes and my pressure in my brain was low because I was like, this is a very – Yeah, it's a long shot. Yeah, exactly. This person's written a lot older than I. And things in the original script got checked out with everything. So I was like, hmm, whatever. So I go, and then my mom picks me up, and I was like, what street are you on? And she's like, I'm on, I don't know, June Street? And I was like, you're on what street? And I was like, that's a sign. The universe is telling me something. Then I go, and I see my intuitive reader, and I pull my first card, and it's the magician card.

1:43:52James Dyer:And I take a picture. I'm like, that's really freaking weird. And then I go to film another movie in Canada, and I'm taking a nap. and my team calls me and I decline because I'm taking an app and they call me again and I decline and then they said no dude you really want to answer this call so I answer and they're like do you want to be and now you see me now you don't and I was like what you're lying and yeah that's it wow there you go there's the magician whole story that's the whole story so it's not the whole story because I want to ask about the magic tricks right what did you learn yes so there was around a month of magic training at the Magic Castle in LA.

1:44:33Chris Hewitt:Right. And this is before your audition, you learned two tricks.

1:44:37James Dyer:Yeah. For my audition, I just looked up easy beginner level one card tricks for a beginner who doesn't know how to do magic on YouTube. And I learned accordingly. And then I get the role and I can't do that anymore. So they have lovely teachers, Ben Seidman, handsome Jack, who taught us everything we know. Very patient with the students. So we would go every day before opening hours of the Magic Castle with whatever open room. And I kind of got a tour at the end of it of every room at the Magic Castle. You would take notes and you'd have homework and I would film both of them doing the thing. And I have so many fun clips that I want to share once the movie is out of the rehearsals of pickpocketing and setting up different angles.

1:45:18James Dyer:I mean, very intricate stuff, but they were so, they were our guiding lights for sure.

1:45:23Chris Hewitt:Wow. So it was important for Ruben and for you guys as well, that you could actually do as much of the stuff practically as possible.

1:45:29James Dyer:Ruben wanted everything practical. Even with the set design, all the rooms were real. All the tricks were real.

1:45:35Chris Hewitt:Wow.

1:45:36James Dyer:Yeah.

1:45:36Chris Hewitt:And is this something that you've kept up since the movie wrapped? Because I know a lot of actors, they'll learn special skills, and then the special skills, there's no call to use them in real life. I don't need to ride a horse down the street, so maybe I don't remember.

1:45:49James Dyer:And I do need to steal people's things.

1:45:51Chris Hewitt:You do need to steal people's things?

1:45:53James Dyer:Yeah. So I'm like, sure, I'll keep it up, I guess.

1:45:56Chris Hewitt:Just checking where my phone is.

1:45:57James Dyer:I actually have it here. Who's that? No. Some things with the cards have stuck with me, like flourishes, shuffles, stuff like that.

1:46:07Chris Hewitt:Okay.

1:46:07James Dyer:Specific tricks have kind of slipped my mind because you need a script, basically, with every trick that you do. Okay. You need the setup. You need the distraction. You need saying something while you're doing another. Yeah. So those kind of left my mind for sure. But impressively, Dom kept up everything. He found a real passion for card tricks and I haven't seen him without a deck of cards since we started the movie

1:46:31Chris Hewitt:Really? Can you do like the one-handed shuffle? He can do a lot of things.

1:46:34James Dyer:It's really, really impressive, yeah

1:46:35Chris Hewitt:That's because I think I love magic. I can't do magic, but I love going to magic shows Watching close-up magic, sleight of hand I think they're all witches and warlocks and they should be burned

1:46:49James Dyer:I saw David Blaine the other day for the first time in my life Really? He ate glass. And I'm like, that's so, where's the trick? So that's so cool. No, no, that's really cool. But like, where's the trick? He just ate glass out of my dad's wine glass. I'm like, oh, I just saw that the other day, the other second. So how crazy. It's unbelievable.

1:47:09Chris Hewitt:He ate your dad's wine glass. Was your dad drinking it at the time?

1:47:14James Dyer:He said, dude, Mr. Blaine, it's all yours.

1:47:18Chris Hewitt:Whatever you want to do. Whatever you want with it.

1:47:20James Dyer:I'll just be back here.

1:47:21Chris Hewitt:Wow.

1:47:22James Dyer:Yeah.

1:47:22Chris Hewitt:And then what happened? Did he just...

1:47:24James Dyer:And then he did awesome tricks. He started it off a little... He started it off with that. Okay. He was like, I think I'm thirsty. And then he eats the glass.

1:47:34Chris Hewitt:How do you top that? Apart from going to hospital. Right. Correct.

1:47:37James Dyer:You don't. I was very worried, but I was also like, that's David Blaine. Like, no one's like him.

1:47:41Chris Hewitt:Oh, my God. So would you say Dominic's the best magician out of all seven of you?

1:47:47James Dyer:Oof. Yes. But Dave Franco. can throw some cards. He can throw cards better than anyone I've ever seen. He recently shared that he can cut a banana in half with throwing cards. I'm like, you are a very talented guy.

1:48:05Chris Hewitt:I mean, there's not much call for it. Can you imagine a moment in your life when you might need a banana to be cut in half by a playing card? It's very impressive. I'm impressed, believe me.

1:48:15James Dyer:Dude, you never know. That guy goes to the gym. What if he needs some potassium Yeah. Across the way, and he's in the middle of the set. And then he's good.

1:48:26Chris Hewitt:I stand corrected.

1:48:27James Dyer:There we go.

1:48:27Chris Hewitt:I sit corrected. Yeah. That's really, really blew my mind.

1:48:31James Dyer:Yeah.

1:48:32Chris Hewitt:Can we go back a little bit in your career?

1:48:34James Dyer:Sure.

1:48:35Chris Hewitt:You, of course, played young Gamora.

1:48:37James Dyer:Yeah.

1:48:38Chris Hewitt:In Infinity War. And I just wanted to ask about that experience, what that was like for you. Yeah. Because you were actually opposite Josh Brolin in his performance capture suit, right?

1:48:48James Dyer:Yeah, so that was the first movie I ever filmed. Wow. And it's the reason why I love what I do so much, because I walk onto this huge set. I'm eight years old. I'm green with a wig, this weird costume. And I'm like, this is like a dream. Like, everything is so crazy and large and green screens. And the Russo brothers were so locked in with everything. Whenever there was a note, they'd come to me and, like, whisper it in my ear. so I wasn't distracted or whatever. And Josh and I got really close on that set, actually. And it was a very surreal experience. Obviously, it's Josh, mocap suit, dots all over his face.

1:49:32James Dyer:But Eyeline— Six-inch platforms. Yep.

1:49:34Chris Hewitt:Yeah.

1:49:34James Dyer:Eyeline is completely different. He's not a normal-sized guy. He's all the way up here. So they had him wear this backpack with a stick blowing up his head, basically, and then a cardboard cutout of Thanos' face. and they were like, look there. And I'm like, that's so weird. So I learned a lot on that set. And yeah, it is the reason why I love what I do so much and seeing Zoe and how everything kind of, and how cool she was. And it was just a insane experience. I feel like I forget so much from that time of my life, but I like remember that as if it was yesterday.

1:50:10Chris Hewitt:Did Zoe come to set at all? Yeah. To give you Gamora pointers?

1:50:14James Dyer:Yeah, we overlap sometimes or we either visited each other or something, but she was she just couldn't have been more like excited she was like you look awesome this is so cool um and even just studying her like walk and and her demeanor with Gamora was a big help wow

1:50:31Chris Hewitt:and so you were eight at the time so uh were you into the MCU at that point had you been

1:50:35James Dyer:I have an older brother he I wouldn't say forced but it was on maybe I didn't ask for it to be But it was. And I fell in love with it. And I had kind of like an MCU nerd at my side the whole time if I needed any sort of history lesson. He got me. Same with my dad. So it was really nice being able to join a world that my family was so stoked about. And I actually saw myself for the first time on a movie screen in London at the Electric Cinema. Really? And my mom and I, because I was filming another movie, and my mom and I went in. and we sat front row and I watched it and I was like, I don't like that.

1:51:15James Dyer:I don't want to see myself on the screen ever again. And I don't watch myself in movies.

1:51:20Chris Hewitt:Well, you know what you did wrong there?

1:51:22James Dyer:Sat in the front row? Sat in the front row. I was like, I like an alien. Yeah. No, God, I don't know where we were. I think we were in the front row because at that cinema, it's like a couch.

1:51:31Dylan Southern:Oh.

1:51:31James Dyer:So I think we had that whole situation.

1:51:33Chris Hewitt:Very nice. And as Infinity Wars was probably nearly sold out, so maybe you only have the front row left.

1:51:38James Dyer:Yeah, it was the first time I got recognized for that movie too because a girl came up to me and she was like, do you know Tom Holland? And I was like, no, I didn't meet him. That was amazing.

1:51:49Chris Hewitt:You got recognized even though you were green.

1:51:51James Dyer:Green. I never expected it.

1:51:52Chris Hewitt:And you weren't green at the screening.

1:51:55James Dyer:Well, I like just trying to decide.

1:51:58Chris Hewitt:Will anyone recognize me as I green myself up?

1:52:01James Dyer:I was not green.

1:52:03Chris Hewitt:Not green. Okay. And you haven't watched yourself? Whoa. Someone's died. Hello. Gamora's arrived. Yeah, that's it.

1:52:09James Dyer:It's Dave throwing cards. He missed the banana.

1:52:12Chris Hewitt:He's slicing the banana half even as we speak. So you haven't watched yourself on screen since. Do you watch dailies? Do you go to the monitor and see things?

1:52:20James Dyer:I don't like to see myself act. Okay. Because then I regret everything I've ever done. But my friends like to watch the movies and they like to support. So I come with them. And then whenever I'm there, I just look away. And I'm like, isn't this so much fun?

1:52:39Chris Hewitt:that's going to be hard in this movie you're in this movie a lot I mean you're going to be looking away an awful lot

1:52:44James Dyer:I'm just going to close my eyes I'm like I don't know I have a good relationship with some and others I'm just like

1:52:52Ariana Greenblatt:get it off the screen

1:52:55James Dyer:but I know I feel like every time I'm in something I say god this would be so good if I wasn't in it I'd be a big fan of it

1:53:03Chris Hewitt:I swear it's just a thing

1:53:06James Dyer:It's just a thing. But I'll get better at it, maybe.

1:53:09Chris Hewitt:All right. Okay. And maybe years from now, you would be playing Gamora.

1:53:14James Dyer:Totally. Maybe in Nagy Seenia.

1:53:16Chris Hewitt:Yeah.

1:53:17James Dyer:That's the magic portal. And all the Spider-Mans are there.

1:53:20Chris Hewitt:And you finally get to meet Tom Holland.

1:53:22James Dyer:There we go. I didn't meet him, though.

1:53:25Chris Hewitt:Oh, you met him?

1:53:25James Dyer:But for that girl, I need to tell her.

1:53:27Chris Hewitt:Oh, okay. But you hadn't at that time?

1:53:28James Dyer:No, I hadn't.

1:53:29Chris Hewitt:Okay. Years later. You have since?

1:53:31James Dyer:Yeah.

1:53:31Chris Hewitt:Okay. Well, there we go.

1:53:32James Dyer:There we go.

1:53:33Chris Hewitt:No, well. Would have been a perfect end if you hadn't met him.

1:53:36James Dyer:Right, I know.

1:53:38Chris Hewitt:Oh, well, it is what it is.

1:53:39James Dyer:Yep.

1:53:39Chris Hewitt:But there you go. Ariana, it's been a pleasure.

1:53:41James Dyer:Been a pleasure. You're so fun. Love your energy. This was great.

1:53:44Chris Hewitt:Oh, I have energy. Okay, that was Ariana Greenblatt. At the end of that interview, I'm not sure whether it was captured or whether I'm going to leave it in. She said, Thank you. That was fun. I like your energy, which made me feel so old. like I just I crumbled to dust in that in that exact moment it was like the bit where Julian Glover dies in Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade good movie you should check it out spoiler yeah spoiler for that you've been spoiling a lot of stuff this week

1:54:11Benedict Cumberbatch:I mean it happens

1:54:12Chris Hewitt:it does happen from time to time I think the 36 year old movie is okay

1:54:15Benedict Cumberbatch:but yeah

1:54:16Chris Hewitt:but yeah I felt I felt so so desperately desperately old in that moment

1:54:22Benedict Cumberbatch:but she liked your energy yeah would have been worse if she didn't

1:54:26Chris Hewitt:it's good that I have energy

1:54:27Benedict Cumberbatch:there you go I'm just happy to be alive bright side

1:54:31Chris Hewitt:yeah anyway that is definitely it for this week's Empire Podcast join us next week for more film related fun but we just had some oh my god what how can we squeeze more film related fun into another episode I don't know about you guys I am spent and I am very tired and I am desperately counting down the days to our Christmas break but nevertheless I'm giving it 110 % every time I press record not like Jimbo with the Pilot TV podcast he's been phoning that shit in for months hey that's true

1:55:05Joel Edgerton:that is not true Pilot TV is the greatest of all podcasts

1:55:08Chris Hewitt:it is the greatest greatest of all podcasts it is the second greatest

1:55:12Joel Edgerton:of all podcasts and if you listen to the Empire Film podcast and you have never listened to Pilot TV for shame and if you listen for shame well the other way around

1:55:20Chris Hewitt:if you listen to the Pilot TV podcast and you've never listened to this podcast then this is fallen and dead this is wasted on you yeah completely wasted but you should listen to both. You should. Anyway, join us next week for more film-related fun when we'll be joined by...

1:55:36Benedict Cumberbatch:All of the people?

1:55:37Chris Hewitt:Helen looks at me expectantly because this is a bit where I can never remember who's on next week's show. And Helen, you're absolutely right. Oh, wait! The star and director of the new film from Richard Linklater? No. I'll do the link now, thank you very much. It is, of course, Ethan Hawke and Richard Linklater

1:56:00Benedict Cumberbatch:oh my god together at last again

1:56:03Chris Hewitt:I've been wanting those guys to get together to make a movie yeah for so long now oh I'm so glad they've finally done it brilliant so this is Blue Moon

1:56:13Benedict Cumberbatch:that's exciting that's exciting and yeah

1:56:16Chris Hewitt:Simu Liu from the new Netflix animated sensation In Your Dreams and because it's me I'll probably be booked one or two other guests as well but it's It's fine. It's fine. It's fine.

1:56:29Benedict Cumberbatch:Why are all the films coming out in these three weeks?

1:56:32Chris Hewitt:I don't know. And it's not getting any clearer either. There's a lot more films to come. But anyway, until then, until we meet again, until that auspicious occasion, it is goodbye for my two colleagues of such a lethal cunning. Goodbye, Helen O 'Hara.

1:56:48Benedict Cumberbatch:Toodaloo.

1:56:49Chris Hewitt:Toodaloo, indeed. Goodbye, James Dyer.

1:56:52Joel Edgerton:Goodbye, Chris. Subscribe to the Pilot TV podcast, the greatest of all podcasts.

1:56:57Chris Hewitt:Nah. Wow. But you gave it the hard sell. I did. Yeah.

1:57:01Benedict Cumberbatch:It's bad humbug season, everybody. It is. Christmas movies.

1:57:04Chris Hewitt:Bad humbug, more like.

1:57:05Benedict Cumberbatch:Oh, wow.

1:57:06Chris Hewitt:Especially the episodes I'm not on. Pilot? Pile of shit, more like. Wow. Boydie, are you just going to lie there and take this?

1:57:16Joel Edgerton:He is.

1:57:17Chris Hewitt:He's asleep. Get up, Boydie.

1:57:18Joel Edgerton:Get up. We've lulled him to sleep.

1:57:20Chris Hewitt:Just like our good old pal, Eddie Brock and Fenham. Anyway, I hope you've all enjoyed this and this podcast. Thank you so much for listening. See you next week. See you next week. Good night, Eddie. It's time for the sleep, Eddie. Bye-bye.