Farewell, Rob (ft. guests Glenn Close; Stephen Lang; Josh Safdie)

31:57I mean, did you all see it around that time? Not in cinemas because I was a bit young. No, me neither. But I feel like I saw it at the time, like I was a perfect age to see it when I did see it. And it's just in my blood, that film. I mean, it probably is the best coming-of-age film, I think. It's got some good competition, but it's absolutely beautiful. And that was probably the first Rob Reiner film I saw because it was quite young. and I've seen obviously a lot of them since then. But Spinal Tap, when I did see that a few years later, I became instantly obsessed with that film. And we can go on to talk about it.

32:33But the fact that I got to talk to him and Spinal Tap in character was... What was that like? So did you refer to him as Rob at any point? Or was it that he was on Zoom? So suddenly there you were. Did you see them? Were you looking at them? It was Zoom audio. I think it was the first one of those that they'd done. We asked for it to be in character because we just thought it would be the most fun way of doing that feature to actually talk to Spinal Tap and Marty. Should we explain who Marty DeBerg is for people who don't? I'm sure most people know, but let's explain just in case. So Spinal Tap, 1984, I believe.

33:07Let's mock your commentary, for lack of a better word, about a fictional band, but done so convincingly that a lot of people at the time thought it was a real band. And Rob Reiner directed the film. And now it is a real band, of course. It is a real band. Rob Reiner directed the film and put it together and, you know, kind of wrote it with the guys, although it was sort of all improvised. Christopher Guest, Michael McKeon, Harry Shearer. They all laid out together. And Rob plays a director in the film following the band around. He plays the fictional director of the film as well as being the actual director of the film.

33:38So he's on camera as Marty DeBerge. So the documentary that he is directing is directed by Marty DeBerge. and he's playing Marty DeBerge but the film is directed by Rob Reiner. Yes. Okay, good. We're on the same page now. So for the sequel, Spinal Tap 2 The End Continues, which was released a few months ago, we decided it would be really great to talk to them in character and play it for real. Like what has happened in the intervening decades and what they get up to and what their relationship is like and just shoot the shit with them. So in answer to your question, I think it was decided that it would all be off camera.

34:16Otherwise, they'd either have to get into costume and hair and makeup and everything, or I would just be looking at the actors playing the characters and it just wouldn't. So we just said, let's just do audio only, which was amazing to keep the spell intact because I just had this most amazing hour audio call with Marty DeBerge, Nigel Tuffnor, Derek Smalls, and Dotson Ovens. and it was honestly one of the most amazing hours I've ever had in my life because they are so good at playing Spinal Tap. There's only been the two films, but they've done Spinal Tap so many times in between. They've done more music together, they've done the concerts, they've done other appearances, and it's just a second skin for them.

34:59And Rob Reiner is the perfect stooge because he's like the foil to them, really. So, no, I didn't interview him as Rob. We just thought it wouldn't be as fun to talk about the real story about getting a sequel off the ground. It's like, let's talk to the band. And I put a clip up on some socials the other day because I listened back to some of it after the news the other day. And I remembered this one bit as I wrote the other day. The only time anyone broke character was Rob Reiner. When Davison Hubbins made such a ridiculous joke that Rob Reiner just lost it and cracked up and just went, oh, Jesus, and laughed and laughed and laughed.

35:39and for about 30 seconds they were like, are you okay, Marty? Are you all right? Did something happen? And he couldn't stop laughing. And the point, and the reason why I put it up on socials the other day is because it just goes to show how much love there was among this group of people and how genuinely they made each other laugh so much. And Rob stayed in character for that hour except for that bit where he couldn't contain himself. And then the others were laughing as well. And it's really sweet and also very bittersweet now to listen to it. And it just, it was very bittersweet. And I thought that was worth putting out there because I didn't publish any audio from that interview because it wasn't done to be published as audio.

36:23It was done for print transcription. But I just thought this is a lovely tribute to that moment in time and the camaraderie between these guys. It was a surreal hour. they were addressing Spinal Tap were addressing like you said they have become a real band they played Glastonbury they played Live Earth well interestingly I guess the film is going to be Rob Reiner's last is a Spinal Tap concert film that was due for release next year Spinal Tap at Stonehenge they played at Stonehenge Stonehenge allowed Spinal Tap to play and it's called Spinal Tap at Stonehenge the final finale and the release of that has understandably been put on hold for a while but I hope we get to see it because I think it'll be a really fitting farewell to a great filmmaker who, Hells Bells, was also an amazing actor as well.

37:13That's how he started out. He's the son of Carl Reiner, the great Carl Reiner. And he's an actor. He's on things like All in the Family. And became a writer. He wrote the pilot episode of Happy Days. Yeah, my God. He has his hand in way more things than you think he does as a writer, producer. Things like Shawshank Redemption, things like Seinfeld. He played a role in keeping Seinfeld on the air. Happy Days, as I said. All in the family. He always thought that that would be the first line of his obituary. He said that for years, that he was meathead. That was his character and moniker in All in the Family.

37:54Because that was like the most watched sitcom in the States. Yeah, it was enormous. Absolutely enormous. But I don't think it translated quite the same way here. So in this country, I think he's had his due as a director and as a filmmaker who had that extraordinary run through the 80s and 90s. And that is where I know and love him best from. And, you know, my first book that I wrote was about 80s movies. And I thought this was going to be the Spielberg show. And then when you actually sit down and look at it, you're like, oh, well, actually, no, it's the Rob Reiner show. That's the person who has most single entries in that book.

38:30of course there's Spielberg there's James Cameron there's all these other people but it's the Rob Reiner show because he worked across so many genres and he had hits in all of them he made classics in all of them he went from I mean the weak link in his series is a perfectly good teen movie called The Sure Thing where he basically discovered John Cusack that's the weakest link in that run which goes from this is Spinal Tap then I think The Sure Thing And this is all pretty much consecutive years as well. So Sure Thing's 85. Then 86 we have... Stand By Me. Stand By Me. 87. Princess Bride. Princess Bride.

39:09Which is your favorite movie of all time. It's one of them. Absolutely. It's up there, yes. And then When Harry Met Sally, I think the greatest rom-com of all time. That's 89. Yes. And then he goes into the 90s with... Is it A Few Good Men? Misery. Misery first. Misery. And then there's the one we don't talk about. And then there's A Few Good Men. No, A Few Good Men. then the one we don't talk about. Then A Few Good Men, then the one we don't talk about, then the American president. Oh, that's even better. He splits up the Sorkins. It does split up, yeah. I mean, just all of those. That's an incredible run by anyone's money.

39:40And in different genres, it's just an incredible run. It's just a delight. No one else has had a run like that. Oh, you want the best comedy of all time? Here you go. You want the best rom-com of all time? Here you go. You want the best family action adventure of all time? I mean, how do you do that? Every year, another classic from a different genre. Yeah. And he wasn't a showy director either. and he didn't get in the way of the material. I think that might be one of the reasons why the film's enduring. No, but he knew good material, at least, you know, and he could see that, and he shaped it in some cases.

40:04I mean, obviously, when Harry Met Sally is a Nora Ephron script, but it is one that she developed very much hand-in-hand with Reiner and that came from both their experiences of dating, and I think that's one of the great things about that film is it's so even-handed in its portrayal of men and women and their differing experiences of dating. And, of course, you know, it's been much talked about this week, and rightly so, but he met and fell in love with Michelle during the shooting, essentially, of that movie. And it fundamentally changed that movie. They were going to stay friends. That was going to be the sort of bittersweet, happy ending, a sort of my best friend's wedding kind of an ending where they stay friends and that's the victory, but they don't get together.

40:44That love affair that he had changed the ending of the movie. And I think for the better. And I think it's a beautiful, beautiful thing for, you know, as a tribute to their real life love as well. He really put himself into the films. It's the same thing happened to, well, not the same thing, but with Stand By Me, when he took that script on, he saw himself in Gordy in the Wil Wheaton character. But he was a writer as well, yeah. Yeah, I don't, I mean, I don't think he's got screenwriting credit on that film. But he did write on it, and he did change things up. And when he looked at that character, who is, I think, the narrator of the original story, He's like, not only should he be the lead character in this film, and he saw himself as the son of Carl Reiner.

41:28He saw himself as an overlooked son and maybe not loved in the ways that he would have liked and put all that into that character and into that film. And Will Wheaton wrote a lovely piece this week about how Rob Reiner was a father to him during the making of that film. And I think he had a troubled relationship with his own parents. And Rob Reiner was much more of a father figure than he had previously had. and talked about how much he appreciated that and how he took such great care of all of those boys during the making of that film. Well, River, I mean, yeah, absolutely, was desperately in need of it, you know.

42:01Yeah, I mean, there hasn't, I mean, it's obvious to say there hasn't been a bad word said about him this week, but there really hasn't. He is so loved. Well, one person in particular. Okay, well, we're not even going to talk about that guy. You know, he was so loved by everyone who knew and worked with him and the tributes have just been nonstop, really and rightly I think as well I've seen other stories from people in the industry in the industry who said he plucked me out of nowhere he took a chance on me he saw the talent and he was like he nurtured and developed people absolutely you can't say that for everybody indeed Jimbo any thoughts on Rob Reiner's career I mean he's two Aaron Sorkins two Aaron Sorkins one would be great two is superlative I mean A Few Good Men is an absolute masterpiece it's wild actually because that's that's a film that meant an awful lot to him.

42:51And, you know, there's one that Aaron Sorkin famously wrote on napkins when he was working as a barman in the theatre. He wrote that on napkins? Yes, mad, isn't he? He had a lot of napkins. Right, a lot of napkins. I can't handle the truth. Yeah, he used to take the napkins home and then type them up in the evening, but he'd write them while he was on shift as a barman. Wow. But when Ryan did it, I think he worked with Sorkin over a year to adapt that for the screen. And some of the changes he made found their way back into the stage production. Sorkin liked them so much, he altered the play to reflect some of Reiner's input, which is fantastic.

43:20But what I think everyone remembers about that... Sorry, that's really interesting because Sorkin famously does not like anyone fucking with his dad. Genuinely, which is why that's so wild. Reiner's that good. When he writes a script, I mean, obviously this was earlier in his career, but when he writes a script, he doesn't let anyone change a word, a sound, an um, an ah, a space. It stays written. Right. Whereas he was like, oh, that's really good, I'm going to take that, you know. And he passed it back to the stage play, including quite a big legal point from the finale of the story. Wow. But I think what was interesting is everyone remembers that for Jack Nicholson's Jessup in it, right?

43:55He's the showpiece of that. But for Reiner, I think the character of Caffey, who was a character who lived, he's a man who lived in his father's shadow, that was a really big thing for Reiner, because he lived in Carl Reiner's shadow, and I think that resonated with him in a really big way, so I think he loved that character, and that's why I think he poured his heart and soul into the collaboration. I actually watched that on Monday night because I mean, I can recite most of that run of films pretty much. And for some reason, I was like, I haven't seen A Few Good Men in a while and my husband hadn't seen it certainly in English at all.

44:25So we put that on. And I was kind of thinking, I was going into it again thinking, well, this is one of my least favorite of the run. I still love it, but it's not up there. And then I watch it again. I'm like, oh, I say that line regularly. And I'd forgotten where. I honestly, I don't remember which one it was. There were several moments during the film where I was like, oh, shit. Yep, I've said that. I've been quoting that for years. I've been quoting it for literally years. A fair bit of Caffey, some of Kevin Pollack as well. I just, it has seeped into my bones. No, truth handler. You, I deny, deride your truth handling abilities.

45:07But literally, with the same intonation, my husband was like turning around and just staring at me and I was like, yes, I hear it, I hear it, okay. You could put out a box set of that run, like the first 10 years of Rob Reiner, and literally call it some of the best American movies of all time. You really could. He was a great actor as well. He was in things like Sleepers in Seattle and Wolf of Wall Street. The Bear just recently. Yeah, The Bear. I never interviewed him. I never had the pleasure, but I know people who have, like Alex would say, he was just this wonderful, warm, witty dude who had an anecdote for every occasion and was just universally beloved.

45:43the great Rob Reiner who died this week at the age of 78 and we should also say his wife as well Michelle who as Helen said without whom the ending of When Harry Met Sally would not have been the ending of When Harry Met Sally and she was a tremendous photographer in her own right as well and producer in her own right also we should also say that we lost two other people from the world of film and television this week we lost Peter Green who of course was Sed in Pulp Fiction. Sed's dead, baby. Sed's dead. He was also fantastic in Usual Suspects and a very, very small role in that. He was the bad guy.

46:21Also in The Mask, 1994 is The Mask, opposite Jim Carrey. And he passed away at the age of 60. No age at all. No age at all. And Gil Gerard, who was Buck Rogers in Buck Rogers in the 25th century, passed away at the age of 82. That's a show that I grew up watching. and he passed away from cancer and issued a lovely statement. He knew he was about to die and issued a lovely statement, which you can find on social media. But yeah, Buck Rogers is gone. That's a real shame. I bloody love Buck Rogers, by the way. I grew up watching Buck Rogers. It was really sweet and fun. All right. So there was and is and will be a lot of movie news that has happened, is happening and will happen over the next week or so.

47:07I'm trying to cover all bases. something that happened two things that happened last week just after we finished the podcast and actually we couldn't talk about them one is the announcement that 28 Years Later 3 is finally moving forward at Sony with Cillian Murphy attached as star and I believe producer as well and Alex Garland is writing it right now even as we speak he stopped gaming long enough to write this screenplay for 28 Years Later 3 whether or not Danny Boyle takes a break from bouncing up and down like a capricious little elf long enough to direct this what? that's exactly how he moves if you're watching me he comes in oh I love it I love pausing long enough bouncing up and down like a capricious little elf to direct this movie oh he bounces up and down your accent just went through the whole of the UK how fucking dare you how fucking dare you I invite you in here and this is how you repay me?

48:05sorry alright thank you don't apologise to him you should always apologise to me I know it was accurate. I am very, very excited about this. Are you guys excited about this? I am very, very excited. I can't wait for the third installment. Yeah, and indeed the second. Of course. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Which we have not officially seen. No. No, we have not. I have not seen it. Legitimately. Really? Neither have I. No. I legitimately haven't seen it, as well as you not having seen it. 28 Years Later was a great film. we are now going to get a Cillian Murphy 28 years later sequel sequel and that is that is exciting and I believe I don't know if they've confirmed yet but I think the plan was for Danny Boyle to come back and direct this it was the plan but whether or not it's going to happen I don't know I hope it happens he's currently directing his Rupert Murdoch film yeah how long can that take it's fine I mean he's finished filming already this is Danny Boyle you know he can yeah I'm not going to say he's going to shit them out but I think he can not like He can move fast.

49:08He can move fast. Because of the bounciness. Yes. The capriciousness and the bounciness allows him to bounce effortlessly from edit suite to writer's room to set. And the elfiness. And the elfiness. He's very busy at this time of year. Exactly. He can bamf. I don't know if you know that about Danny Boyle, but he actually bamfs. He's a little bit like Nightcrawler. Nightcrawler, okay. Yeah, he bamfs in and out of locations as well he needs to. Wow. Yeah, very useful, especially on Christmas Eve. I'm not saying Danny Boyle is an official North Pole elf. I'm not not saying that either he's quite tall on the shelf and a bowl on the bum is he tall?

49:42for an elf definitely yeah so is Buddy yes alright any other news? yes something else that happened last week two things one of which was the Supergirl trailer it was it was and is and perhaps will be a week of trailers folks Supergirl Craig Gillespie's Supergirl yay I think we should go to someone who is excited about this movie looks at James. Looks at Alex. Looks at Helen. Hello. Hey, Helen. Hi. So this is Millie Olcock as Supergirl. This is based on a comic book which I have read. And in the comic book, thank you, in the comic book she goes to a planet with a red sun. Who's she? Kara Zor-El.

50:31She goes to a planet with a red sun so she can tie one on for her birthday. What? She basically wants to get drunk and she can't get drunk on Earth because Earth's yellow sun superpowers her. So she has to go to a planet with a red sun to be non-superpowered enough to get drunk. So she goes and gets drunk and then some things happen and she ends up basically having to travel with this younger girl who has lost her family and is looking for help and they have to travel on a mission of revenge slash saving the day, basically it's it's a cool story and it's a good kind of character piece and it gives you some nice weird you know Guardians of the Galaxy-esque potential for kind of strange alien worlds yes and not just doing another twist on Superman on Earth it looked fun it looked fun yeah and this trailer seems to suggest that that's you know it's along the lines of that story yeah it feels very Guardians-y in terms of the the colour the colours the palette well maybe even the tone although we don't get that much of a sense of dialogue, etc.

51:36It does. I mean, obviously, James Gunn isn't directing it, but I guess he's all over it to some degree. It does feel Guardians-y, but it also does look quite refreshing. It looks not reverential. That's the right word. And it looks like a breath of fresh air. I didn't love Superman, but... Superman, that was just one film, and this is another one. And she looks like interesting casting to me, and it did a lot of fun. I mean, she's very fun. I mean, he did make Cruella before this and gave a bit of a punky twist to Disney. So if he can do punk in Disney, I'm sure he can bring some punkiness to Supergirl as well.

52:14I'm hyped for this. I think it looks really fun. Helen is super hyped. Jimbo, as someone who was a huge fan of Superman, can't get enough of him. I'm more interested in this, certainly. I think the silly tone that didn't work for me in Superman will work better in this because it seems to lean into it. And as you say, it has a Guardians-y vibe, but curiously from the trailer, and it is a teaser, to be fair, none of the charm, wit, or humor in the trailer. That doesn't mean it won't be in the film, but I have seen no evidence of it yet. So we shall see. Wow. The Grinch is bad. I am on the fence.

52:50It's interesting, though, what you're saying about the tone because it was a slight clash in Superman, wasn't it? Because he was supposed to be someone projecting awe and someone of the truth and justice, the American way, and blah, blah, blah. and she is someone who just wants to go and get drunk so maybe tonally it will suit her character more than it did his. Yeah, I think so. To have more fun as a film. Yeah. Yes, indeed. Alright, so that's going to be out when? Summer? Summer? Summer, I believe. Summer. As is a film that for a long time we thought was going to be called Untitled Steven Spielberg UFO Project.

53:26I still think they should have gone with that title. I would go see it. I would absolutely, I'd love to go to a cinema and just say, two tickets please for Untitled Steven Spielberg UFO Project. No, of course I don't have to pay money. Don't you know who I am? Anyway, and then the cops come and drag me away. It is now called Disclosure Day. This is the new film from Steven Spielberg, but it's also the new sci-fi film from Steven Spielberg, but it's also the new potentially UFO-related film from Steven Spielberg and David Koepp. Exciting. And now the trailer has given us a bit of a glimpse at it.

53:59What was that glimpse? So the glimpse appears to be a debate question mark or mission question mark to announce that contact with aliens has or is happening to the people of the planet of Earth. Close encounters of the fourth kind. Kind of thing, yes. And there may or may not be like things trying to stop that happening. There appears to be a bit of conspiracy-ness going on. I'm really not clear on what the story is from this trailer, and that's the way I like it. I'm fine with that. There's a lot of really quite cool stuff in this, though, that I really enjoyed. So you get the sense that Josh O 'Connor is on the let's tell everybody the truth side of things and is one of the people, if there be people, plural, who are trying to be silenced by whoever is trying to control the disclosure of this information.

54:55There also appears to be some means of physically, potentially silencing people because there's a moment where Emily Blunt is on air or she's a weather woman in the studio and is physically unable to get words out and you're like ooh what's going on there it's really creepy the sound she's making of like kind of not being able to say anything so I interpreted that as being alien speech maybe yes I don't know that's the point and I'm really excited to find out what's going on I love that because it's a really otherworldly unearthly sound and it feels like she's speaking in an alien tongue and that gave me Charmellan-esque chills.

55:34I proper chilled them. I thought, oh, this is creepy. Like signs. Right. And exactly, it had that kind of feel to it where it actually chilled me and Spielberg, you know, there's elements of it in War of the Worlds but like horror isn't like a natural genre for him but this has that, it has that almost like cosy, emblemy feel at times but also it had this thread of genuinely spine-tingling fear to it and that really excites me it's really exciting it's really even like there are weird looking deer in this and you're like I don't trust those deer yeah horror maybe he has done terror very well quite a lot though hasn't he which this doesn't look like a horror film to me no but I think it will be creepy as far it will probably be scary I mean he's done a lot of scary I also like the fact I love Josh O 'Connor who I absolutely love what a terror he's on my god oh no and an ascension I mean he's this will be his next film after Wake Up Deadman and he's just really breaking into the big leagues now and he's really great.

56:30Great cast, incredible director. Spielberg wrote the story that Kepp then based the script on. So, you know. Did he? I... Because Spielberg does not have a lot of writing credits. That's really interesting. No, but Close Encounter is one of them. All right. So that is the Disclosure Day trailer. We are recording this on Wednesday, 17th of December. There are rumors, strong rumors, heavy rumors that a trailer, or maybe even trailers, is slash are imminent for a little film I like to call Avengers Doomsday. Now, if that is indeed the case, that trailer or trailers has slash have not yet dropped.

57:16Good Lord. I've got to get it right. if it slash they do slash do. Are you all right, Chris? We slash I will. If it slash they does slash do. Okay. Then I slash we will leap slash saunter into action and record a reaction podcast. Is slash podcasts. if we slash I feel that it slash they warrant slash warrants such treatment. Sorry, Chris, you sound like Emily Blunt in the Disclosure Day training. You do. You are speaking in alien tongue. So basically, there might be a Doomsday trailer or trailers, and we may or may not cover it. Hey, everyone, it's Chris. You're just jumping in real quick because, as you may have noticed, There has been a trailer for Avengers Doomsday in the interim.

58:19We recorded this podcast on Wednesday because Helen had to go back to Northern Ireland the following day. So we didn't record on Thursday as we usually do. We figured, hey, you know, it's going to be OK. There's not going to be a lot of movie news breaking before the festive season. Boy, were we wrong. So let me see a couple of hours after we recorded. The news broke that the Oscars are moving from ABC in the States to YouTube as of 2029. I don't know how to feel about that. Let me see. Paul King, our beloved Paul King, is directing a Lububu movie. I don't know how to feel about that. They revealed the first poster and a teaser trailer and the title, indeed, for the long-awaited Tom Cruise-Alejandro G.

59:02Inarito collaboration. It's going to be called Digger, and it stars Tom Cruise. We only see him in profile, but he does seem to be wearing a wig of some kind and maybe even prosthetics. and he's dancing and it's called A Comedy of Catastrophic Proportions. Very intriguing trailer indeed, as is the trailer that is in cinemas right now, I haven't seen it myself yet, for Avengers Doomsday, which heralds the return of a beloved character to the MCU. There may be other trailers coming this weekend with Avatar, Fire and Ash, or they may be coming over the next couple of weeks or they may be none at all.

59:43But the rumor is, the strong rumor is that that's what's going to happen. It's going to be multiple Avengers trailers. As things stand right now, I haven't seen it myself, so we're not able to get back into the pod booth just yet to talk about it. Also, while the trailer is very, very interesting and certainly worthy of debate, I'm not sure that on its own, it warrants a big old 20 to 30 or even longer minute podcast show of its own. So we are aware of the news. We will get to all the news in a future episode of the podcast. Back to the show. There is a new issue of something called Empire Magazine.

1:00:25Never heard of it. Is that worth talking about? Maga-zine, I think. Sorry, Empire Magazine. Maga-zine. No. No? No. Let's talk about MAGA. Make an empire great again. Sign. Magazines. Great again. Yes. This is the new issue of Empire, of course, the magazine we all work for. And on the cover, it's only the bloody Pinky Blinders cinema version. What? Pinky Blinders have wrapped up their TV series and are exploding onto the cinema screen with a big World War II set epic Barry Keoghan plays the leader of the next generation of Peaky Blinders Killian is back in it on his horse Sophie Rundle is back from the series you got Tim Roth in it Tim Roth Adrian Brody Adrian Brody from Predators Predator Badlands it sounds very exciting we've got lots of amazing photos we got brilliant interviews with Stephen Knight as well the creator Tom Harper the director who directed three episodes on the first season of Peaky Blinders he looks bloody great great awesome and there's other stuff inside this issue as well there's a lot of great stuff inside the issue we're going to talk about it in depth Nick the Semlin and I in the latest episode The Shameless Plug but very quickly what else is in the issue in case people don't know or like Peaky Blinders and they want to feel reassured there's other stuff in there for them too be reassured certainly in the feature section we have a feature on The Bone Temple the sequel to 28 Years Later, in which Ben Travis spoke to director Nia DaCosta and the two leads, Ralph Fiennes and Jack O 'Connell.

1:02:07It's a brilliant, brilliant feature. The pictures are pretty stunning, and that film looks bloody great. Lovely. If you ask me. Chris, you spoke to Matt Damon and Ben Affleck. We have been trying to get a version of this feature off the ground for a long time to get those two in conversation about everything that makes those two those two. Why don't you tell us about it? Yes, indeed. So we've been trying to get this feature off the ground for quite some time. Oh, shit. They've got a new film. Did you say that? No. I wasn't listening, to be honest. I was looking at my email. They've got a new film coming out called The Rip, directed by Joe Carnahan.

1:02:49It's going to be on Netflix on January 16th, folks. One week after our live show, get your tickets, Kingsplace.com. Are you okay? And they were great. I had an hour with them and they were just so much fun, so smart and so funny. And it was an absolute joy. And we have a 19-page extravaganza, our review of the year. 19-page extravaganza. A review of the year looking back on our favorite moments, films, shows, characters. 19 pages if you lost your damn full mind. From 2025. It's really good. Let's not go into it in great detail, but we have Ryan Coogler on Sinners. We have Amy Madigan on weapons.

1:03:24we have White Lotus Adolescents Andor it's really cool so there you go the new issue of Empire Magazine on sale right now and all good evil and virtual news agents buy it for Christmas a great present for loved ones for Christmas if you want to do that or indeed your most hated enemy wow okay alright should we have another guest let's do it let's do it who shall we have shall we have of

1:04:18I forgot who the guests are. is back and he has an interesting couple of developments here in terms of his relationships and ongoing battles with Jake Sully, played of course by Sam Worthington and the new baddie of this franchise for Wrong. She is Wrong, played by Una Chaplin, the best chaplain and I sat down with Stephen Lang last week, in fact, in a London hotel room to have a good old chat about Quarage and about his journey as an actor and as a character through all three Avatar films and his relationship with James Cameron. Didn't talk about the party crasher in a hard way, but another time, another time.

1:05:00Here's Lang himself, Stephen Lang. Enjoy. Stephen Lang, how are you, sir? Very well. Thank you, Chris. Good, good, good. Where have you been around the world on the tour for Avatar, Fire and Ash so far? You and I are meeting here in beautiful London and just came in from Milan. And prior to that was in Paris. And prior to that was in Los Angeles. And from here we'll go to New York and then Toronto. Whenever you're shooting these movies, the way that Jim Cameron shoots these films is obviously so unique and so special. Does this junket tour, does it seem so far away when you're immersed in the world of Pandora?

1:05:41Oh, yeah. You don't really spend time thinking about the junket. But, you know, we've done this twice before. I know how actually remarkable the junket is. You know, it really does. It's a part of the job, certainly, but it's kind of a fantastic part of the job because it gives us the opportunity to go out and to really promote this film globally. And, you know, as the appeal of this film is, it has been a global phenomenon. On the second and third ones, obviously, Miles Quaritch is in full Navi mode for both of those. But you were yourself, so to speak, for the first movie. Did the process change at all between Avatar and Way of Water and Fire of Ash in terms of Fire and Ash, in terms of how you approached the gig?

1:06:34Well, in terms of, we could talk about the process of acting for sure. the character itself, whatever the process might have been, has gone through the palette has expanded and deepened with this character. I mean, it would be pointless because I will, you know, I think it's fair to say in the first Avatar, he had a very kind of straightforward function, you know. And although we don't think of it in those terms, I'm perfectly willing to kind of, you know, admit that he was the villain of the piece, you know, as it were. because people just have to kind of lay that label on them. However, if you were just going to repeat that, it would be pointless.

1:07:14You know what I mean? Why do it? Get yourself another more exotic villain or something like that. But Jim is interested in this character. He's interested in what this guy is made of and found him to be worthy of examination. And so we've been able to do that. And so the character itself has, I think, deepened and expanded in a significant way, and hopefully will continue to do that. In terms of the process, of course, I was completely live action except for several days of performance capture in the original one. Yes. And what I always felt was that if there is any defining process to the Avatar franchise, to the saga, it really is performance capture.

1:07:59You know, it's kind of without performance capture, there's no Avatar. Yeah. And so I always wanted to be part of that. You know, you want to be doing what really defines the saga. And so I was very happy to be able to do that. And how did you find it when you did it? And did it change at all? Did the process change from the first Avatar? You know, obviously over a decade had a lapse between this and Way of Water and Fire and Ash. I think the process hasn't fundamentally changed. it's uh the name of it has changed back in the day they called it mocap or motion capture and now uh performance capture is actually more accurate it's a more nuanced term that's what it's about it's about capturing performance uh so um but uh the process uh it's i think it's always advancing but sometimes it's advancing in ways that we don't really know about you know what's going on technologically behind us, you know, how that the they can be swifter in processing the assets, the work that the data, as it were, that we do.

1:09:10That's all done by the guys at the, you know, Command Central back there, the nerds, as it were, you know. But the acting is fundamentally unchanged. It's still an immersion into a very simple and authentic space, which is quite naked. And we've seen, I think a lot of people listening to this will have seen behind the scenes footage from the making of Farnash. And you have these cameras and you're wearing these suits and the cameras are essentially trained right on your face. Was that something that took a little bit of getting used to, trying to ignore the camera that's trained on your face whilst focusing on your scene partners at the same time?

1:09:53You don't really. Yes, I think initially it can be disconcerting, but you get used to it very, very quickly, and it just becomes part of it. There are certain technical things, like if you have to share a kiss with somebody, then you need to remove that thing because that's what you've got to do. But the truth of the matter is it presents the performance capture suit. There, I almost did it there. performance capture suit and the head rig, you get used to them very quickly. You regard them as makeup and wardrobe. And they actually are less restricting than many aspects of conventional filmmaking.

1:10:37Absolutely. Let's talk a little bit about, because obviously I'm conscious of spoilers for this movie, but Quaridge's journey through this film is really fascinating. I think it's safe to say that his relationship with Jake Sully is complicated and getting more and more complicated as time goes on. Is that something that can you talk about approaching that relationship with Jake and working with Sam? Well, it was a, what is maintained, the relationship has always been one of a military structure, which is a chain of command. You'll notice in throughout the films, including Fire and Ash, he will call me Colonel.

1:11:18Yes. And I will call him corporal. Yeah. But it's not as cut and dried as that anymore. It's actually who is actually controlling the situation. Just the dynamic just is constantly shifting between this two. Jake has become, in the first film, of course, Quarch was the one who was trying, was teaching, you know, Jake, Although he was not teaching him successfully at all. Well, since then, Jake has been trying to impart lessons to Korich in the form of open your eyes, dude. Open your eyes and see where you are. And that's something that he's resisting. There's a repulsion that goes on between these characters.

1:12:06Clearly a brutal antagonism that goes on between these characters. And there's also a tremendous amount of respect and admiration that goes on between these characters. And there's even some form of affection between these characters. And it's not conventional, but in so many ways, without Jake Sully, Courage just would be completely absent de raison d 'etre. What would he, you know? It's sort of his relationship with Jake that becomes his mission, his meaning on this planet in some way. He thinks about Sully far too much. Obsessively so, perhaps. But he also has Spider to think about as well.

1:13:03I know. He needed that like a hole in the head. Look, Quaritch is a guy who's really, he had it all figured out. Yeah. He really did. You know, he had what he needs. He lives a simple life. You can imagine Quaritch's quarters. They're very kind of strapped, very stowed away in a very good way or in a very orderly way. And that would, I think, be a way of kind of defining the inside of his head as well. But that's all been out. That's out the window. Well, it's the old saying, isn't it? I think Mike Tyson said this. Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face. That's right. And Quaritch didn't get just punched in the face.

1:13:43He got a couple of arrows to the chest. He got killed, actually. Yeah. Which will disrupt your plans. It does disrupt. And then again, in Way of Water, he suffered more defeat. He suffered near death in that he should have been dead. He gets his life saved by, you know, someone, by his son, for goodness sake. So one would think that one doesn't think of Quaritch as being a character with a huge amount of humility. But he has been humiliated in a way. And even humanized, I would say. Totally. And the irony, of course, is that he became the thing that he really did hate. And in so doing, he's become more human.

1:14:29Jake does urge him in this film, as you said, to open your eyes and, I guess, become more aware of his surroundings and become more aware of what he is now. He is essentially a Na 'vi now. Do you think Quarage has that in him to fully immerse himself in the world of Pandora and to fully embrace that Na 'vi side of him? If he can surmount his own fear of being vulnerable, of being open, of not being in control, then anything is possible, it seems to me. And if he has not curtailed or cauterized the aspects of humanity that are necessary in order to see and to feel. And there is that. Look, he is a casualty.

1:15:21He is his own casualty of war. And he's been that from the very beginning. And war, that's a situation, a condition. That's a comfort zone. Yeah. Isn't that a peculiar thing? It's very peculiar. But there are such. There's a sense, I mean, I know that after the first movie, because you were dead and people loved your character and were thinking, is there any way that Quarage could come back? And Jim, I think, said in interviews, I think I remember talking to Jim around the time, about plans for Avatar 2. This is back after the first one came out, just after the first one came out. And he was talking about Quarage even then in terms of Darth Vader.

1:16:02He was in the Darth Vader of the franchise. And that's really being borne out in a very, very interesting way. Again, I don't want to give things away at all, but there is that line about Darth Vader, there is good in him, I have felt it. And there's a sense that you can sense that in Quaritch. I remember when Jim, when I read, when I read that Jim had compared Quaritch to Darth Vader, I was like, thanks a lot, Jim. It's a pretty tough act to follow, right? He is indeed. Yes, he is. A tough act to follow, but it does, I think, give credibility to the respect and interest, curiosity that Jim has about this character and about what makes a fella like this tick.

1:16:57Yeah. He's a fascinating character. I mean, you seem to be having a ton of fun. There's a new relationship in this film with Farang, who is the character played by Una Chaplin. And I don't know what's going on with those two. They are kinky as hell. I think it's perhaps the phrase that springs to mind. Was that a surprise when Jim told you that Quaritch might be going down that particular route with Farang? I mean, a delightful surprise, I would say. when I read it. And I think it was inevitable. Inevitable that knowing Jim, that this world of the Na 'vi, this world of Pandora, was going to have all kinds of different colors, that it was not all going to be a walk in the woods singing Kumbaya together.

1:17:45You know what I mean? And she's about as ferocious as they come. And it is absolutely brilliant. Korach and Varang, I think they recognize each other very, very quickly as having kind of a dynamic that might work together. You know, it's worth noting, and I'm sure you've noted it, that, you know, in the first film, Neytiri says to Jake, you have a strong heart. Yes. It's exactly what Varang says to Kwarj. She says, you have a strong heart, you know. And what she's saying is you have a heart that's almost as strong as my own heart. They are circling each other, aren't they, very much? They're wary of each other, but they're inexorably drawn towards each other as well.

1:18:34Totally. Listen, when she invites, you know, when they go into the yurt to shave our arm, you walk in there and the lighting is such that it's like, okay, anything can happen here. Absolutely. what happens in Shae Farang stays in Shae Farang. I'm fascinated by these two, Stephen. I could watch a spinoff. Lovely characters, aren't they? Oh, yeah, I could watch a spinoff of these two. Their domestic situation would be endlessly fascinating. Yes, it would be. It's either Little House on the Prairie or All in the Family. Fawlty Towers, possibly. Yeah, only with a higher body count. God knows, with a body count, exactly.

1:19:17Yeah, absolutely. So in between avatars, how much communication do you have with Jim Cameron? How much does he keep in touch? Does he go, oh, you won't believe what I've cooked up for Quarage in this one? Yeah, I mean, he keeps in touch. And if I'm doing something of interest, I'll let him know and he'll always respond. We write. I will send him stuff that I write. I don't inundate him with anything. But if I have something that I really want his input on, I'll send it to him and he will invariably give me just great, great coverage on something. And he's done the same, you know, with me. So what's what's kind of happened is I think that a good kind of trusting, respectful relationship, friendship has evolved over over a period of years.

1:20:05Was that something that happened immediately when you first met? It happened relatively quickly. And I'll tell you, I think one of the reasons why is that it will come as no shock to you to know that Jim Kamala is an alpha personality. Yes. Well, I don't know that I would characterize myself as an alpha personality. I'm pretty kind of changeable in a way. But when I'm in the persona of Quaritch, I'm very much an alpha male. So when you put these two people on a set together, things can either go to hell really quickly or you're going to have a sense of humor and kind of, you know, find out what it means to kind of work together even whilst butting heads.

1:20:56And I think it's an absolute truism to say that the crew of Avatar always enjoys it when Jim and I are working on set together. Because there's kind of an eternal sort of battle with great affection and humor that goes on. And I think that that kind of engendered a friendship. Amazing. Yeah. So has Quaritch run his mouth off then at a gym on set? Carefully. Because Quaritch, but slang will say, take it easy, dude. Oh, no, that's not what we're doing. Slang, slang, yeah. He really is the director. You know, don't screw this up, you know. So you're back here, Quaritch is here, and you're taking control.

1:21:48You always have a little demon on your shoulder who's editing. Always. Any actor who tells you it doesn't, they may not know about it, but they do. He's always there. That is amazing. And so, four or five. Are you hopeful, looking forward to that? Has Jim told you what might be in store? Well, I've read them. So, I mean, they could change, I suppose. And it's not certainly by no means a slam dunk that we'll get to do it. But hopefully Fire and Ash is going to do the kind of business that's going to actually demand that we do it. The colonel's journey is far from over, and the same could be said for every other character in there.

1:22:30But Korich will always occupy his space. You know what I mean? He just, you know, I don't care whether he's on where he is. He's going to stamp his feet and say, I'm here and I'm going to assert myself. So, yeah, I look forward to continuing the journey and not repeating myself and, you know, kind of expanding the palette even more if possible. Damn straight. And that's that Quaritch Farong spinoff. Just getting chims in here. Yes. Even as we speak, Disney Plus is working on that. I can see an eight episode limited series. Eight episodes. Forget 22. 22 episodes. Let's go. Yeah, we're going back.

1:23:09Yeah, absolutely. that would be a hell of a thing Stephen it's been a pleasure thanks so much Steve for your time that was Stephen Lang and we're about to talk about Avatar Fire and Ash in the reviews section of the show but as is recently established tradition it is time to say goodbye to Alex Alex farewell happy holidays Merry Christmas all that jazz thanks Chris love me for a reason let the reason be love mic drop okay so Alex has exited left and he has been replaced in the ever-rotating fourth chair for the final time this year by Beth Webb. Hello, Beth. I wish that the pause in between that really scared me.

1:23:51There was no pause. For the final time. There was no pause. I'm pretty sure it was all one run-on sentence. This year, just wanted to upset me for those milliseconds between. We're not going to kill you. That's not how this works. I was going to say sacked, but you went straight for violence, James. I was going to say, we're not killing each fourth chair and then bringing in a... No, and like dragging one out and walking in the next. Hey, Beth, good news. You've been sacked for Christmas. It's a Christmas sack filled with presents. You all set for Christmas? Gosh, yeah. No one is ready for Christmas.

1:24:27I wrapped all my presents. They're all under the... Oh, have we got a tree? I've got a tree. You've got a tree. It's fine. Of course I have. Shall we do what we brought Beth into this room to do? The human sacrifice of James. yeah fire cold fire cold where you're just gonna throw me in a pond no I'm melting I'm melting it's like Wicker Man but like a wetter Wicker Man instead of instead of setting you alight we just drown you yeah and if you drown then you were not a witch but that was bad luck for you wasn't it not the most foolproof of Bob's game no it's not we are gonna review some films the first one we're gonna review is it's pretty much the biggest film in town at the moment.

1:25:11It is, of course, The Family Plan 2, which we didn't review when it came on Apple TV a couple weeks ago. Hellspells? Yeah. Worth a watch? Yeah. Okay. Next up, Avatar, Fire and Ash. Jimbo. Yes. James Cameron is back. Your favorite filmmaker of all time. It's true. It's true. He's brought us back to the world of Pandora once again. Has it been worth the wait? Oh, I don't even know where to begin with this. Well, let's start with the plot, shall we? That's traditional. So this is the continuation of The Way of Water, quite literally, in fact, because The Way of Water and Fire and Ash began life as a single film before being split into two.

1:25:50There's no way they could have been a single film. They're too big. Well, it would have been seven and a half hours long. But this takes place shortly after The Way of Water and the death, spoiler, of Nataim, the oldest Sully child. It's too painful. It is too painful, as Pai Cam would say. But the Sully clan are still living among the Metcaina, the Reef people, and they're dealing with grief, and Netiri is having a very difficult time having lost her child and she blames all pink skins which doesn't speak well for Spider their adopted human son who is a pink skin who is a pink skin and is not feeling particularly well loved among the Sullys but he has other problems not least of all his ability to breathe the air so he's now separated from other humans and he wears like a mask but obviously that requires batteries and batteries run out so he has a slightly fraught existence there but things get more complicated when Quaritch, who is still around, and the RDA come looking for them again, but with a slight wrinkle, which is the Manquan tribe, which are the Ash people.

1:26:47They live in the kind of volcanic wastes of Pandora, and their leader, Varong, played by Una Chaplin. Best Chaplin. Indeed. They take issue, shall we say, with some of the things that the Sully clan are doing, and they become a new antagonistic force. And this is three hours and 17 minutes back on Pandora. and it's a long film. When it finished, I was sad because, and they talk about this, they've talked about how you get sort of like Pandora and withdrawal where watching these films is like being on Pandora. It's a transportational experience and you miss it when you're gone. No matter how long these films feel, you feel like you're being forcibly dragged away from Pandora and I had that when this finished.

1:27:30I saw it twice in a week. I loved it both times. Genuinely, this is the cinematic event of the year. Now, that is a different thing from saying that this is the best film of the year. This is the cinematic event of the year. This is the only film this year that you have to, have to, have to see on the biggest screen possible. You have to see it in 3D. You need to be enveloped in it. You need to be hugged by it. You need it to sort of wash over you. And there's nothing else quite like it. So it's wonderful, and I loved it. However, when I came out of this film, and people asked me what I thought of it, I said, I loved every second of it, but everything I have to say about it is negative, which made absolutely no sense to anyone.

1:28:08I get it. But it's because I love it so much but the only things I have to take away are the things about it that it didn't measure up by and I still love it and I would like to make that very, very clear. I think where this film disappointed me slightly was with Avatar we saw something we'd never seen before. With The Way of Water it felt like this had progressed into a new biome and you film all this water. It was visuals I'd never seen before. I felt like the film was entirely fresh and new. This film feels like the second half of The Way of Water in that it doesn't really do anything hugely different.

1:28:45It doesn't do anything hugely new. There's a central plot line revolving around Spider and a couple of other people where people do have interesting arcs. Everyone has a good character arc. There's an interesting mythology arc in there as well. But in terms of action set pieces, they are largely, if not all, things that we've seen to a certain extent before. So this, in some of his action beats, feels like a mixtape of Avatar and Avatar 2 in that you have an air battle, but you have a sea battle. You know, we've got dragon gun ships, but now we don't have one. We've got four. We've got those big water vessels that we had in water vessels, he says, they're called ships, James, from the way of water.

1:29:23But now there's like four of them and they're bigger. There's an even bigger one. So it feels like they've scaled up, but fundamentally not changed the nature of what these set pieces are. That said, the first hour has some really great stuff in the jungle where they introduce the Ash Clan. And there's an initial raid by the Ash Clan, which was my favorite action beat of this film, which I thought was fantastic. It's dazzling watching these sort of banshees fly through the air and you're catapulted along with them. And in IMAX, it's quite extraordinary. But going through this film, you can't help this tickling feeling of familiarity all the way through it.

1:29:56So I've kind of seen this. And these beats are very similar to what happened in the last film. and that's very similar to what happened in the first film. So I got to the end of this and had a great time. It was wonderful. But I did not, to quote Jim Cameron, shit myself with my mouth wide open. I had a really great time at the cinema. I saw it twice in a week and I was looking forward to that second viewing just as much as I was looking forward to the first one and I will doubtless see it again in the cinema before it goes out of cinemas. And I encourage everyone listening to this to immediately drop what you're doing and go straight to the biggest cinema you can find and watch it.

1:30:29Listen to the rest of the podcast. Sure. But, but, if you are expecting this to move the needle dramatically from what you've seen before, I think you'll be disappointed. What this is, this is what's come before again, and that's not a bad thing. That is a good thing. But I think we'll have to wait until Avatar 4 before we see kind of, I guess, the next stage of Cameron's vision. The way of air. The way of air, yes. If you shit yourself with your mouth wide open, you should wear a dry suit, by the way. Just to keep it localized. Okay, sure. Jimbo, you sound like you are where I was after I saw Ant-Man and the Wasp, Quantumania.

1:31:10I loved everything about it, yet everything I have to say is negative. You sound like you might be in denial a little bit. Are you? I don't think so. I think it's a nailed on four. I don't think it's a five. And like I say, I think it is the best time I've had in the cinema this year. and that's partly a commentary on the state of cinema this year, but also there's nothing quite like this. It's part film, part theme, part ride. It's experiential. It's not really just a movie. It's the closest thing you'll ever get to being on another planet and riding a little dragon. It is wild. Genuinely, there's no other experience like watching an Avatar film.

1:31:453D is evil straight from Satan's bottom in everyone else's hands except for James Cameron's. Not everyone's, but most people's. Almost everyone's. Honestly, I can't think of anything but Avatar I would ever voluntarily watch in 3D, genuinely. But I would never want to watch this in anything but 3D because that helps the immersion, and that's what this is all about. I think it's fabulous. I think everyone should watch it. But again, everything I have to say about it is negative. Hell's Bells, we now know the reviews for this are not as universally glowing as they have been for previous Avatar installments.

1:32:18And there is a group out there of Avatar skeptics who perhaps when they heard James say, you have, have, have, have, have to go see this in the cinema, might have gone, no, we're not doing that. But should they? I think they should. And I do kind of agree. It is a cinematic experience. I've watched these at home, and they are totally fine. But when you watch them in the cinema, it is overwhelming, and it does feel like going someplace fundamentally different. And I love that about these. They are really genuinely immersive in a way that is not just hyperbole, which sometimes it is. Or as Natasha Bedenfield says, hyperbole.

1:32:57As she does, yes. But I just, I was, I didn't look at my watch during a three and a half hour film and there have been some other three and a half hour films recently and I looked at my watch during them. There was a 75 minute movie I watched last night and I looked at my watch several times. And this, I was just in it and I was swept along and it is old fashioned movie storytelling. It is not reinventing the wheel. it is not subtle always in its criticisms of capitalism or colonialism or, you know, the destruction of the environment. I don't think subtlety is always the right way to go. And I just, I had a really good time.

1:33:36But I agree with James. I mean, in terms of, you know, does it move things forward? Does it fundamentally change the tenor of the story? You know, not really. I guess the idea of Navi collaborators to the humans on Pandora is new, but that's about as far as it goes. Otherwise, this is all kind of more Avatar. And it turns out that's okay for me too. All right. Beth? Can I just say listening to James was like listening to Smeagol and Gollum. He loves it, Gollum. We don't love it. We hate it. No, we love it. Just a really, a man at war with himself there. Fucking brilliant.

1:34:24I come in a little bit fast and loose with these. I love to spend time in these worlds. I don't get upset when I'm dragged out of them. I'm not quite as passionate, but God damn if I don't just love settling in and letting this quite literally wash over me. I completely agree with what both of you were saying in that it's not pushing the needle, but I do feel like it got a little freakier. A little more freak on show in there, in Fire and Ash. especially with Quaritch and I've got to say Una Chaplin is Varang what a great addition to this she really is sinister and vicious and terrifying but without getting too much into spoiler territory there are freaky elements to that allyship I've seen a great comparison of them to Sean Penn's character in One Battle After Another which really is bang on if you want an idea of what that partnership looks like you just watch one battle after another um i loved um going further into pyakans experience whale court oh 12 angry whales 12 angry whales there is a fantastic kind of wrestling of ethics with giant whales and let's let's fucking go that was excellent there's a great set piece with some rave shrimp which was absolutely phenomenal rave shrimp yeah as we say not a subtle film but yeah entertaining one um i'm very here for the messages of environmentalism i think um no one is quite hitting those home like cameron does he's really passionate about that stuff and is showing that in really interesting ways i thought the kids were great um i would have liked to see more of kate winslet as uh ronal am i saying that right ronal ronal in fact she's part of a sequence which i won't go into because of spoilers, but there were some beats that I would have liked to have spent longer in.

1:36:18Rather than repeating the same beats as much, I'd rather they dedicated a bit more time to some more than others. And she was in a big one that I would have liked to have seen more of. I will absolutely go and see this again in the cinema. Just a rollicking good time. And yeah, I feel like we're seeing a bit more of a freakier side here that I would quite like to see explored more in the next chapter. This has been reviewed a little bit more divisively. than I think even the previous installments where there was, I think, with the way of water, there was a sense of the critics going, we'll show him.

1:36:53He's got ideas above his station. 2.9 billion, we'll show you. And there is a thing that people use to beat these films where there's no cultural footprint, but the Avatar films, no one quotes Avatar, no one can remember their favorite character's name. And there's been a little bit more of a sense of knives being sharpened for this one. I'm getting that anyway, a little sense of that people have gone in with their minds made up some of the I mean the one star reviews are mad like actually mad yeah to give us one star is just ridiculous it's like yeah I feel like they did the FACUM 5 technique do you think that's what it was it was two of them they did rock paper scissors only this time it was the darker timeline it came up with the one star yes that's it yeah absolutely it was this time it was sadly scissors but we've given it four stars Ben Travis wrote the review for this and it is an excellent review.

1:37:42You should check it out. Four stars then for Avatar, Fire and Ash. Next up, Sentimental Value and Marty Supreme. The kind of two big Oscar contenders that are out on Boxing Day. Hells Bells, let's start with Sentimental Value. So this is a new film from Joachim Trier, the Norwegian director of The Worst Person in the World, for example. It also stars Renate Rensve, who plays one of the two daughters of Stellan Skarsgård's character, who is a film director. She is an actress. Her sister Inga Ibsdoscher Lilias plays her sister. She's a mother, she's a hard worker, she's a person in the world. So Stellan's character, Gustav Borg, their estranged father who hasn't really been around, comes back into town after their mother's death when they're kind of already reeling with grief and tells Nora, which is Renato's character, that he wants her to star in his kind of comeback film.

1:38:34He hasn't made a feature in 10 years. He's been off doing documentaries and things and he wants to get kind of back in the saddle and he wants her to lead it. And she basically sees this as a slightly, you know, shallow and naked attempt to kind of rekindle some kind of relationship with her and isn't interested. This is not the right time. Turns him down. He, meanwhile, finds an American actress, a very famous one, Rachel Kemp, who's played by Elle Fanning, who is willing and keen, in fact, to star in his film, having loved his earlier work, and starts trying to work with her to make this film instead.

1:39:05But at the same time, he's back in Oslo. he's reconnecting with his daughters you know he's turning up to family parties and get togethers and so on and they're beginning to kind of reach more of an understanding of each other so it's kind of a slow burning relationship drama I guess where they're trying to figure one another out figure out you know where the where the wounds in their relationship are can they be healed can they be kind of covered over can they rebuild something between them he's also trying to figure out his legacy as an artist and his place in the world as an artist and whether he can make this thing that he sees as a bit of a career capper in the current film environment.

1:39:45There's some very funny jokes about Netflix and just generally about him trying to get back in the saddle. He's determined he's got to work with his old favourite cinematographer and goes to visit him and finds that maybe he isn't quite as capable of swinging around a Steadicam as he once was. And so I just find it an absolutely fascinating, beautifully drawn portrait of a bunch of people who have hurt each other in the past who have been who've been damaged themselves it goes into sort of the legacy of the family because this story that Gustave is trying to tell is ostensibly at least about his own heritage and his own mother and her war experience and her war wounds and so it's kind of about generational trauma, it's about healing, it's about discovering each other and hiding things from each other and trying to kind of connect despite that.

1:40:41It all sounds a bit wishy-washy when I'm saying it like this but it's a really beautiful film it's funny, it's smart it's gorgeously acted by all involved. I was completely enchanted with it. I loved it. I think it's better than the worst person in the world and I thought that was very good. Wow. Fight and talk. Yeah. Fight and talk from Helen. Okay. Bethany. I mean, just because Worst Person holds such a place in my heart, in my bones, I would struggle to say it's better, but God damn if it doesn't give a good swing at trying to do that for me. This is, for me, Stellan Skarsgård's film. It's fun seeing that this is the awards season of Sad Dads.

1:41:28Or Dads just trying to make it work. Like, you know, one battle after another, Jay Kelly, this. It's just the dads trying to be good, trying to make right. And I think Stellan Skarsgård, I mean, this is where the kind of awards chatter is coming from, is him for best supporting actor. And I think just so, he's put to such extraordinary use here. He shines in everything he does, but I think this is somebody who's watched him throughout the years. And if he hasn't written this role for him, they've just really come together at a moment of real harmony for Gustav he's just so wry and tender and there's such wonderful exchanges between him and Renate that feel so so lived in they are carrying decades of trauma with each other something I really love about Joachim is his eye for kind of conceptualism there's a great sort of use of the house in this, this big family home.

1:42:28Oh, there's that incredible set piece in the middle, my God. Yeah, I love when he plays with stuff like that. In Worst Person, there's that great scene where she's running through Oslo where it's frozen in time and this, it's really drawing in on the house to kind of emphasize what a house can hold in its bones, you know, what a house has seen over the generations, the pain and the laughter and the coming together of it. And he does that really beautifully. The writing's wonderful. big up Elle Fanning as well this is quite a thankless role she basically has to play an actor who adores Gustav but you know they have to rewrite the film in English for her because she doesn't speak the native language and she can see that she's not right for the role and that she probably shouldn't be in it but god damn she's going to give it her best and try and you know to have something so egoless like that for an actor to play I think she's she's having a hell of a year good for her and this is a this is a great role for her but yeah ultimately quite thankless as an actress who isn't the first choice I think that's really great and then Renate she has one of the best entrances I think in a film this year she plays a stage actor in this and it's hysterical that opening scene is amazing it's absolutely hysterical so I think she's phenomenal in this I've loved seeing her career since worst person go from strength to strength and I can't wait to see where she goes next as well to the Oscars presumably I would hope so.

1:43:54What was that? Where did that come from? I'll shut up now. It was great. No, no, no. In fact, you're not going to shut up. You're not going to talk about the end of the next movie as well. But what do we give this one? This sounds amazing. Four stars? Four stars. Four stars and four sentimental value. And just add one because it's Christmas. And just add one because it's Christmas. Every film gets a Christmassy five stars. We've decided that. This one deserves it. and Beth now it is time for you to talk yet again about the other Oscar movie that people will be torn between when they go to the cinema on Boxing Day do I go see Sentimental Value or do I go see The Housemaid no not The Housemaid do I go see Marty Supreme yeah it's a toughie I would just say do both ignore your family ignore your relatives you've seen them yeah bring a turkey sandwich with a moist maker in the middle and then you are totally fine yes please I would say start with Marty Supreme and then have sentimental value as a bomb because much as James didn't want to, and this is not, how do I say this in a complimentary way?

1:45:00Much as James didn't want to be dragged away from Avatar, I couldn't leave the world of Marty Supreme fast enough. And that's not because I'm going the other way. It's not because I hate the film. This is my film of the year. But because it's so stressful and propulsive and frenzied and lights every nerve that you have on fire that you just can't take anymore. And it is two and a half hours. That is a long time to be essentially bashed about the face with this absolute train ride of a film. and a train wreck of a human and a train wreck of a human so yeah this is this is just such a fucking assault on the senses so it's Josh Safdie of the Safdie brothers who made Uncut Gems they made A Good Time this is not the first film that he's directed by himself he made one in 2008 The Pleasure of Being Robbed but obviously his career has gone up into the stratosphere since then and so this is his return to directing solo.

1:46:05Benny Safty, of course, went off and did Smashing Machine and his acting and doing all these other things. But this is George Safty and co-written by Ronald Bronstein, who has written on all their other films as well. Stars Timothee Chalamet as Marty Mauser, an inspiring ping pong champion. It's set in 50s New York, and he is this absolute maverick, table tennis maverick, and he's just on the pursuit of greatness no matter what the cost. And when I say this is the most ruthless young man that I've seen... He makes Paul Atreides look like Willy Wonka. Is that what you're saying? That's exactly what I'm saying.

1:46:45He is... I'm going to say this is the great Timothee Chalamet performance. I appreciate he's been talking the talk for this awards campaign, for this film campaign, you know, really running his mouth. I'm the greatest, I'm the greatest, all I turn in is a great work. And it works, it works because it syncs so precisely with this character who is so cocky, so arrogant, trying to talk himself into the best rooms of this world and emerge as this victor. But he's got the talent to back it up. He really is the top of his game, that it's captured in some of the most polished but also panicked kind of sports sequences.

1:47:34It's kind of billed as a sports biopic, but it's so much more than this. It's this massive character study about this young nightmare. But then the world around it is so fantastically constructed. And I have to talk about the casting of this film because it doesn't end with Chalamet. There is something like, there was an early interview with a cinematographer I don't know if this has been confirmed but it's something like 140 speaking characters in this film of which the supporting cast I mean I'm scrolling and I'm running out of room to scroll there's like dozens of supporting characters in this which range from professional actors like Gwyneth Paltrow Her first major film role in years Yes and Odessa Azayan who's just been in that Rachel Sennett show I Love LA I hadn't seen her much before then.

1:48:25Emery Cohen is in this. Fran Dush. Abel Ferrara. Yeah, so they've got Abel Ferrara. And then you've got people like Tilda, the creator, the odd future rapper, entrepreneur, everything. Kevin O 'Leary in this, who I don't think is really translated over here, but he's part of Shark Tank in America. He goes by the nickname Mr. Wonderful. And he plays Gwyneth Paltrow's husband in this, Milton Rockwell who's this real kind of Rockefeller um Gwyneth Paltrow plays an actress in this a retired actress who has an affair with Marty but there is just not a dead note in this casting it is such a feat and every character arc is accomplished and rewarding and stressful and the production itself is just incredible just an incredible piece of period filmmaking it's two and a half hours and it feels like it's about 80 minutes long it does not stop and it still maintains that filmmaking that made uncut gems and good times so thrilling it's scuzzy and all over the place and passionate and i just loved it i saw it on the day we sent our ranking of the year off to press and i was in london and i was like could i make it to the printers could i stop the printers and changed my Ryan Huggies Me as my film of the year.

1:49:51I was just floored by it. Absolutely floored. And I love to feel so alive when you're watching a film. And this film made me feel so alive and so stressed and so in love with that craft. And I just adored it. It is really scuzzy, really stressful. He is a monster. I mean, he is such a dickhead. He's in the room. my god Jesus and I can't wait to hear from James on this because I know you like a righteous hero but he is the absolute fucking worst he's such a dick he's just the worst hey but not you James I feel attacked no Marty James James Supreme but what was surprising to me is how little it's about sport and how much more it's about the struggle of being able to play sport and so there's issues there of obviously class and privilege, which Marty doesn't have, and trying to just get to the place where you can show off what you can do.

1:50:55And yeah, that's kind of the thrust of the movie more than anything else. He's confident, at times too confident, that when he gets into the ring, the arena where they play ping pong, I don't know what the word is, he can deliver the goods, but it's getting into the arena that is the problem from him and he will do anything to get there, legal or not, ethical or not. And that is kind of the fun and I guess the entertainment of this film. It's the outrageousness of him that is really fascinating that you can't take your eyes off. We haven't even mentioned like Fran Drescher plays his mom, Sandra Bernhard is one of his neighbors, I think the mother of Odessa's character, if I remember correctly, Isaac Mizrahi, the designer is a publicist Penn Jillette turns up as a farmer it's just like what is happening David Mamet is playing the director who's in one scene in the background it is an insanely stacked cast and yeah it's just fascinating incredible faces just absolutely incredible faces that he's Josh Safdie has done such a great job of assembling just interesting looking people and giving them interesting tiny bits of business to do and then having this complete firework of a Timothee Chalamet performance going on in the middle of it.

1:52:21I don't know if I would say that I enjoyed the experience of watching it. This is it. You've got to get out. But you were glad you were in there. Yeah, I'm really glad I saw it. I don't know if I will watch it again. It's a lot. It is an assault on the sense of it. I thought Jammers was a lot. I would say I find it less stressful than that, but I rolled my eyes at Marty far more even than I did Adam Sandler in that. Both of them are making terrible life choices, like such bad life choices. This is how he wins. But I think Marty's life choices are actually worse, if anything. Oh, yeah. And he hurts people.

1:52:58He's loathsome. He's terrible. He's completely loathsome and unforgivable, but so entertaining in that wretchedness. And so one-track-minded, you know? So, yeah. Anyway, so yeah. Sounds great. We give this five stars. I think I can relate to this guy. He sounds absolutely awesome. Five stars then for Marty Supreme. And the last film, I don't know how we've ended up here, but the last film that we're reviewing in the year of our Lord, 2025, is Paul Figgs' The Housemaid. So this is, Sydney Sweeney plays this young woman who's clearly, you know, on her uppers. She's driving a terrible car, living in it, essentially, faking wearing glasses.

1:53:39just for no real reason and turns up to interview for a job as a sort of live-in housemaid. So a little bit of like cooking, lots of cleaning around, tiny bit of childcare now and again, but basically just helping out this rich suburban woman played by Amanda Seyfried. And to her own surprise, she gets the job. She assumes that we learn early on that as soon as they run a background check on her, you know, she will never hear from them again. So it's clear there is something in her background. What? Meanwhile, Amanda Seyfried's character, Nina, seems super nice, lovely, absolutely ideal dream person to work for.

1:54:19But as soon as Millie, for it is Millie, takes the job, it becomes clear that more is going on. More! There are so many ridiculous twists and turns to this movie. I had a great time because I just wanted to watch something really stupid after watching a bunch of like Marty Supreme, like very Peter Hujar's day, you know, very serious films. And this is so stupid. It's played with great commitment. I think that Amanda Seyfried is absolutely on the money with the level of camp, frankly, that she is going to here. The other two are maybe a little bit too tuned down and maybe the film would have been stronger if they'd also gone big.

1:55:04But I think this is, you know, If you enjoyed A Simple Favor, then I think you will enjoy this. It's not quite as funny as that was, but it is similarly batshit insane, frankly. I had fun with it. Now, we gave it two stars. I've talked to Ollie about this, Ollie Richards, who reviewed it, and he just didn't get on with it at all. But I just think if you have taken too many liqueur-filled chocolates over Christmas and then you just sit down and watch this I think you'd have a lovely time. I'm going to watch the hell out of it. A lovely, lovely time. Five Christmassy stars in for the housemate and it sounds to me like every single one of those was well earned and well deserved.

1:55:50Sure. Merry Christmas to all involved and may the good Lord have mercy on yourselves. All right. So two stars in sadly for the housemate. One more thing to do. Josh Safdie director of Marty Supreme talking to Beth Supreme. Here it is, Supreme! Enjoy! Hi Josh, how are you? How are you Beth? Thank you for talking to me. Oh, I'm thrilled. I'm thrilled to be talking to you about this film, which has been in your bones for a very long time, right? That's right. And I understand that your uncle actually knew Marty Reisman, which is wild. Yeah, my uncle was closer with a guy named Dickie Miles, who was also an inspiration for the film.

1:56:31and also Saul Schiff and Lou Pagliaro and Lawrence, Herwald Lawrence, who owned Lawrence's ping pong parlor. And he described to me, when I discovered this world, he described to me... a person, a type of person who would be attracted to the sport. And he described to me someone like Dickie who would come over to my family's house for Shabbat dinner and they would clear the table at the end and put books and play table tennis on the table. But he described to me the vibe at Lawrence's table tennis parlor as a sort of orphanage, a place where all these misfits and outsiders, you know, congregated and dreamed together.

1:57:14But they were incredibly competitive with one another. they were kids who were had high IQs but did terrible at school uh they were you know jokesters but incredibly serious and there was this man at the at the head who let people sleep in the back and you'd find people you'd find criminals coming by to hide out so he said it was a very interesting uh you know juxtaposition that you'd have these kind of dorky guys but they were kind of low-end criminals so they had like a toughness to them and they were from the street and he just, the world that he described to me, you know, I could relate to in many ways, but it was, the energy seemed really exciting.

1:57:57He said, these were people who couldn't find a place to sleep on Wednesday, but you'd find them in, you know, a palatial hotel in Paris on Saturday. So they were international. They really dreamed big with these dreams that no one respected. And how did you feel that spoke to your sensibilities as a filmmaker? care? Well, you know, I was pursuing for 10 years, I was pursuing a dream that for many of those 10 years, no one believed in. It wasn't until the very end that I was able to get my opportunity to at least try my shot at the dream. And that was for my last film, Uncut Gems. And the sacrifices that came with a pursuit and an individualist's quest, I really was living a life of like a rugged individualist, forging my own way and figuring out, you know, coming across a path that no one had really walked before.

1:58:49So you don't know where to step. And sometimes that can be scary. And sometimes it can be exciting. But the limits of that path, I didn't and the constraints, I didn't necessarily feel until the very, very end, the promise of it was so large that I didn't really understand the, you know, the downside to it. And at the end of the journey, you know, I finished the film and I looked around and I felt a hollow feeling. And I didn't feel the joy and relief that came from realizing this dream. The dream was about the journey. It was the dream was about giving me a purpose to wake up every morning. And when I got to the end, I realized, what have I been doing?

1:59:38I sacrificed a life. I had this. And so I started to think about the people around me who believed in me. And that's almost soon after I got married to my wife, who bought me the original book to inspire this film. I had a baby almost soon after that. And I realized that dreams were for the lonely and that feeling I could really relate to these characters. I also love table tennis. So is this feeling of kind of happiness shared, right? Yes, exactly. Exactly. I mean, you could argue that it wasn't a happiness to begin with. You know, it was more the drive. The drive was really, really, really exhilarating.

2:00:20And I felt a purpose every morning. And happiness is the most fleeting emotion that we all chase. And you only achieve it, most people only really achieve it for brief moments, and then we chase it again and again and again. So the dreamer's journey is filled with these moments of happiness, which are like a carrot at the end of a stick that you constantly are running towards. And that's the gasoline for the journey. I wanted to come back to this exquisite casting. I wanted to know when you were having conversations with your casting director, Jennifer, if there was like a connective criteria because it's such a vast ensemble, actors, non-actors.

2:01:03Was there a sort of mission that you guys had when you were selecting cast or was it case by case? It's a case by case. Jen and I have been working together for, oh boy, 15 years now. I actually met her in 2007 when she tried to cast me and she was letting me go through her files because she was doing a certain sort of real person casting technique on photographic stories before she became a documentarian. And she made a whole documentary about someone she was trying to cast for, I think it was a Spike Jones movie. I think she was doing, or before that, it was a photo series. And then she did Where the Wild Things Are.

2:01:44And that was when we started working together. And she and I both have a love for the everyday star, an iconic person. And you can see that in her documentary. and that's why it's so great to work with her because she is a documentary documentarian first and a humanist first so when we look at these roles i send her these elaborate character descriptions so they allow her to kind of understand what to look for where to look for these people you know some of the parts i tell her you know i would like an act like an actor in this part it's very demanding um and sometimes i would say this has to be a real person we have to find somebody who's a real cop or we have to find somebody who understands that lifestyle.

2:02:29But so each one is bespoke and the decision making is entirely about the character and what the script and the movie demands. But the requirement is the same amongst everybody. They need to be the character before they open their mouths. And sometimes that can be someone who's well-known. Sometimes that can be someone who's not well-known. And we try to align ourselves and the characters with the souls of the with the souls of the actors we're casting. So, you know, you're using the baggage that they're bringing to the film to your advantage so that an audience member knows this person before they open their mouth.

2:03:09And, you know, Jen is, you know, really, really good at looking through people in a way and seeing their inner beauty. and that's very helpful because even the quote-unquote bad guys in the film have to be human and and she can see like me the good in almost everybody you can find a piece of goodness in almost every single person unless they're truly evil and then that then that's scary sociopaths are quite scary but even them you maybe once in a while you can find something but that bad way outweighs the evil the good and that's when you meet someone like that it's it's it like kind of questions you man you kind of question humanity a little bit it's a challenge so you wrote this and you wrote this with timothy in mind how how did that come through in your writing what did he bring to the script well i wrote i met him in 2017 before call me by her name came out so i didn't know him as an actor.

2:04:11Someone said to me he was an interstellar, which I love. It's my favorite Nolan film, but it's not what I would... That's not the first person who you remember from that movie, even though he's great in it. So, I didn't know, but I met a young, really ambitious, very energetic, Timmy Supreme. That's who I met, this kid who had this vision for himself that was singular and monomaniacal. And then, but so there was a seriousness and an intense energy to him. But then I watched him in Call Me By Your Name and his acting style was larger than life realism. And he had this ability to take what could have been a small story and broaden the walls and make it bigger and almost cosmic through his iconic acting.

2:05:03So when I saw that, I was mesmerized because it was not the person who I met also. Then he gets on stage and he's moving around so much that he fell off the chair. And the entire audience started laughing. But we were laughing because we felt so intimately close to him because of his performance. And I loved the play between who I met and who was on screen. And when I discovered this world of these wiry, energetic, young dreamers, he was the... I said to Timmy, because we were wanting to find a thing to work on together. I said, this is the project we're working together. working together. And he's like, oh, wow, period piece.

2:05:38I said, yeah, but this is what it's going to feel like. And I sent him a video of these young players set to Peter Gabriel's I Have the Touch. And when he saw that and felt the strange juxtaposition and energy of the mythic and legendary quality of seeing something old, but hearing something from a different era, he understood the energy that I was going for, that I was searching for a timelessness in the dreamers pursuit. And I, so I wrote it for him and he would, we would talk about it all the time. I'd send him character biographies, you know, so I would keep the movie very malleable and open in his mind.

2:06:14So he knew the character and he knew the world. So then at the very, very end, I give him the script that I spent six years on. Cause I, Ronnie and I work by writing the story and it takes us six years to write the story. And it ends up being like a 45 page, 50 page written story written reads like a book with dialogue and then it takes us four weeks to write the script after we have that because it's just transferring the six year process into a script form so he doesn't read it until it's in the script form and the same with Gwyneth I wrote it for her I wrote it for Tyler the creator and I wrote it for Abel Ferrer those are the people I wrote for everybody else I would cast and then go back and change things with them I wanted to ask about And his walk, Marty's walk, it's fascinating.

2:07:01It's like it takes up all of Timothy's body and it changes throughout the film. I wondered how you guys kind of workshop that walk. I love that you're bringing it up. You know, the only people who brought up the walk are British people, which is so fascinating to me. I love that people are noticing something that we worked on. It actually what's what, you know, Werner Herzog says when you shoot a movie, the first thing you should do is put a chair in the middle of the room and you get everybody around it and you shoot the chair. You light it. He directs the chair. So we organized the film so that the first thing that we shot was the walk that he has in Paris.

2:07:36And I went up to Timmy and I told him my direction to him was something that happened to him while he was in Amsterdam. The character was Amsterdam and he bumped into another player and he lied to the player and told him that he was in town training with a great trainer. but the really he was in town playing with the harlem globetrotters but it was so humiliating that he had to lie and then a mutual friend bumped into that perhaps that dutch friend and told him the truth and he heard about this in paris and he was trying to figure out a way to fix the lie so i told him that that was what was going on inside of his head so he was so overwhelmed by it so he did one take and he was moving quickly and i said i said remember you're also very late and you're also a little bit confused about you want to be a big man.

2:08:26So these three things at once, and then I always would make him drink coffee. So those three things plus the coffee at once led to this really beautiful, confident swagger that is interesting. I also saw footage in, there was this footage from 1947 that I saw, and it was a guy who was just walking really late to work in New York City. And you just, there was a timelessness to seeing that hustle that I really liked. I'll have to try it next time I'm in Soho. Just a load of coffee and confidence. Josh, this has been such a thrill. Thank you so much for speaking to me today. Thank you for having me.

2:09:09Appreciate it. All right. That was Josh Safdie talking to Beth about Marty Supreme. And on that note, folks, that is it for the Empire podcast for the year 2025 we made it we did it join us next year for more film related fun when we'll be live on the stage of King's Place in London on January 9th the show will be out edited on Jan 11th all being well and when we'll be joined by aha well that is for me to know and you to find out but let me just say unless everyone cancels and for the Christmas holiday you are not going to be disappointed by that show, that lineup of guests. It is long and illustrious and long.

2:09:55Did I mention long? There's a lot of people. A lot of people coming to that one. It's going to be a lot of fun. It's going to be a lot of fun. The show's going to be three hours. It's going to be three hours. This show is not far off that. We hope that you will forgive us and you will indulge us this one time. I like to keep the shows a sprightly one hour and 57 minutes, but this is going to go over that. It's a Christmas present. It's a Christmas present to you because we're not going to be back for at least two weeks apart from the Review of the Year podcast which is nearly three hours long and the preview of 2026 which is two hours long but apart from that and obviously all the spoiler specials the Avatar spoiler special we're about to record and the Wake Up Dead Man spoiler special which is up right now and the Pluribus spoiler special which we have yet to record which we have yet to record and Christ knows when we're going to do that but anyway basically we'll be with them every single day over Christmas holding your hand metaphorically throughout Christmas and if a certain trailer or trailers appears or appear then there'll be 15 more podcasts coming your way more podcasts coming your way but in the meantime all that remains is to say goodbye to my three colleagues of such lethal cunning Beth Webb Merry Christmas Happy Holidays all that jazz Merry Christmas Chris Merry Christmas to you Merry Christmas James Dyer Pod bless us everyone he's been sitting in silence writing out his head for like 10 minutes while other people talk.

2:11:19He's going, I haven't seen that film, but I can say, Pod, bless us, everyone. There we go. Thanks, Jimbo. And Pod, bless you, too. Goodbye, Helen O 'Hara. Toodaloo. Is that it? Not a Christmassy toodaloo? What do you want? And Tiny Tim, who did not die. Who did not die? It does, doesn't it? Oh, what a film. What a film. And it is goodbye for me as well. Merry Christmas and all that jazz. I just want to finish this show and this year's show by saying something very very quickly on a personal note it's been on my mind a lot as we enter this festive season and I haven't said anything about this before on the show or anywhere really bar one Instagram post last year in fact frankly I wouldn't have been able to say anything about it previously without becoming a sobbing mess but a couple of encounters after the live show we did in September made me realize that not everyone knows about this and perhaps I should address it this one time this is one time I'm going to talk about this As long-term listeners may know, my wife, Mrs.

2:12:18Drinking Game, and I were attempting to adopt a little girl who became known to listeners as Little Drinking Game. In fact, I think that's a nickname that you guys even suggested. Sadly, that adoption fell through last year. Little Drinking Game is no longer in our lives. It's been, you've no idea, an incredibly tough time, as you might expect. But we are getting there bit by bit, day after day. little drinking game is I am sure doing well which is the most important thing so there you go folks you may have wondered for a while why I haven't mentioned LDG and now you know I will also say very quickly that this show this podcast has been a beacon in the darkness for me over the last year and a half as has the love and support of everyone even my wife my wife obviously Fala also everyone at Empire and in particular these two fucking assholes Helen and James who are the best friends and colleagues of such lethal cunning that I could possibly ask for.

2:13:15I would never, ever say it to their faces, but they know. They know how much they mean to me. And the understanding and compassion that we have received from people who did know about this has been just overwhelming. So I want to say thank you to everyone who's reached out over the last year and a half or so. And that is that, pretty much. That's it for the Empire Podcast for this year. I want to wish everyone who listens to this, everyone who supports us, whether they subscribe to the spoiler specials, whether they just listen to us on a weekly basis or they come to the live shows. I want to wish you all a happy holidays, a Merry Christmas if you celebrate, and the merriest new year possible.

2:13:50Thank you so much for listening. See you next year. Bye-bye.