Florence Pugh's Dress And Other Unfinished Stories (ft. guests, Wagner Moura & Kleber Mendonça Filho)

27:11Oh, man. Was this for the Godfather or for a... It was a Godfather interview, yes. Wow. Yes, it was a Godfather. What anniversary? Oh, yeah. It wasn't. It was actually for the Godfather video game. The Godfather video game, which I'm guessing Robert DeFal never played. Jimmy Kahn, maybe. I don't imagine he did. But I'm guessing Robert DeFal never played. But yeah. I spoke to him for The Judge. Did you? He's really good in that. He was very good in that. And he was a very fun interview. I mean, it was, you know, he definitely was very much living in the present. I was all like, so tell me about To Kill a Mockingbird.

27:39And he's all like, so how about now? I mean, in the politest and nicest way possible a little bit. But, you know, he was still very, very likely. He must have been 85 nearly at that point. The judge. Yeah, it was like 2015 or so. Yeah, it would have been around that. But he was, you know, still tangoing regularly. and just seemed absolutely full of beans. Yeah. So I think he's a guy who really had a zest for life and was very much living in the moment and not just dining out on his incredible back catalogue, which quite frankly, many a lesser actor would have done. But I mean, but genuinely, he was, you know, he was in To Kill a Mockingbird, which is a big, big film for me.

28:18It was one of his very first films. I think he had a couple of, it's called his film debut, but I think there were a couple of kind of cameo roles beforehand. He's Boo Radley in that. But he is Boo Radley, yes. so he inspired a top band as well he definitely sure I'm not sure it was him personally I think it might have been the book but yeah no it's a lovely little part and I think he does it very very beautifully but yeah that was like just a tiny hint of what was to come and I think you know there were a couple of I mean just fabulous obituaries and memories of him published this week but people talking about how he really could run the gamut like something like Kilgore is a really big performance whereas Hagen is so controlled and quiet and he's just sitting in the corner a lot of the time just listening and processing and just he's like he's like the mentats in June James like he is like the human computer one of them not conciliaries exactly and he's just like sitting there processing everything going on you know spotting the the weaknesses and the the flaws of everybody else and just absolutely ruthless when he needs to be I see I never read Tom Hagen is at at all this is why they stand him down in Godfather 2 he's not a wartime conciliar he's too nice for that game he's a good guy of course famously Duvall they wanted him back for Godfather 3 and they didn't offer him what he thought he was worth fair enough yeah absolutely and he was replaced not in the same role but by George Hamilton but I interviewed him twice as it turns out nice both for the same film I remember interviewing him one of which I completely forgot had happened I went looking through my archives this week I remember interviewing him in person for Jack Reacher when he came over to London it was one of those really really brief like 10 minutes if that TV slots which are awful but you know you still got a sense of what a lovely guy he was and how affable he was but it turns out also I did a pint of milk with him which I'd completely forgotten and when he found out when I looked through my archives I was like oh shit I interviewed Robert I did a pint of milk with Robert DeFal I didn't ask him how hairy his ass was I know I drew the line I didn't ask De Niro either but hey ho and you know that brief what 27 minutes I think I really understood the man I think I'm sure you did did he know how much a pint of milk was he did he did he was a big football fan we talked a lot about because he directed a film called A Shot at Glory yes with Ali McCoyst with Ali McCoyst and he's in it as well Deval's in it also it's not available on streaming it is available on YouTube it's a very very interesting movie that's not what I want to talk about when I talk about Robert Duvall but it is an interesting just this curio in his CV but John what do you think of when you think of Robert Duvall?

31:08Well I mean probably the things everyone thinks of is Apocalypse Now and The Godfather but I mean he did so much work with you know George Lucas and Francis Ford Coppola and he's one of those actors He's in the conversation he is in the conversation yes he just he just seems like one of those actors that's always been working you know like he never sort of stopped he was always you know popping up in things I was always weirdly a fan of his work in Gone in 60 Seconds so I read someone say this week he was so good that he was good in Deep Impact yeah there you go honestly don't you come for Deep Impact I was thinking of him in Deep Impact I'm rich great in Deep Impact but that's one of the first major roles I probably saw him in as a kid.

31:51Really? Well, because I wasn't sitting at like 10 or 11 watching The Godfather. I was, you know, watching like big stupid mainstream things about, you know, asteroids. And I thought he was really good in it. But that was the era where, you're right, he would just class up the joint of these, you know, big blockbuster-y films. As Spurgeon Tanner. Spurgeon Tanner. That's his character name. Genuinely fabulous name. Spurgeon Tanner. He saves the world. He saves the world. It's like a Pentecost. they all have they're all going to have high schools named after them do you remember that? oh it's not bad he's good in network as well except Jon Favreau who's still floating off in space is that falling with style?

32:29I don't know and I mean what was it seven Oscar nominations he won for Tender Mercies which I feel like is not the film he's remembered for can I make a confession? yeah I've never seen Tender Mercies and I feel I have to rectify this immediately I feel like I do too I think I saw it on TV once because when I read the synopsis I was like Oh, yes. But then I was wondering afterwards, do I just think I've seen it because it sounds exactly like the one that Jeff Bridges won the Oscar for? Which Robert Duvall was also in. Oh my God, yes. Crazy Heart. Crazy Heart. Shit, I hadn't put that together. Anyway, but yeah, I think he probably should have won for one of the others, if I'm honest.

33:06I mean, The Apostle, which he also directed and wrote, I think. Fantastic. Is pretty incredible. So yeah, I just feel like he was one of those guys who, even if he wasn't the lead, and I'm glad that he got the chance to lead some films and he wasn't just stuck. I think people described him as America's number one, number two at one point in the 70s. Like if he was second on the call sheet, you knew you were in good hands. And he kind of, I think, went away slightly and did some Broadway and tried to kind of reestablish himself as a leading man and not just a great character actor. And I'm glad that he got some leading roles and some of them were great.

33:41But at the same time, if all you were being is the eye-catching dude in The Godfather geez that's okay isn't it stand out I think because for me he is a stand out in The Godfather and The Godfather 2 and I always felt Tom to be a really strangely reassuring presence in those movies he may be the only bloke in The Godfather movies who doesn't actually murder anyone I'm trying to think maybe Fredo doesn't to him like when he goes to Jack Waltz and he let's be honest threatens him but he does it in the most amicable, polite, and quite charming way. Charming way, yeah. Right up until the horse's head.

34:22Do you think Tom cut the horse's head off himself? No, I don't think he does things like that himself. Yeah. That's what Luca Branzi's for. It's an old Sicilian message. Luca Branzi sleeps with the horses. Oh, no. So he was nominated Best Supporting Actor, Godfather, Best Supporting Actor, Apocalypse Now, Best Leading Actor for The Great Santini, won for Tender Mercies, nominated Best Actor for The Apostle, supporting actor for A Civil Action, a fairly forgettable John Trafalto legal drama. And speaking of fairly forgettable legal dramas, he was also nominated for The Judge as well. But I genuinely think he was in the conversation, the movie, and he's in the conversation genuinely, I think, for one of the greatest of all time.

35:08Yeah. And I really loved the statement that his family put out. I don't know if you saw this after he died. they said there would be no formal service for him. But they encouraged those who wish to honour his memory to do so in a way that reflects the life he lived by watching a great film, telling a good story around the table with friends, or taking a drive in the countryside to appreciate the world's beauty. Right, all of us, gone in 60 seconds this afternoon. It's what he would have wanted. It's what he would have wanted. Is that the spirit of that? Yes. A shot of glory, surely. The first thing was...

35:36By watching a great film. By watching a great film. I understood the assignment, thank you. Not a sort of shaggy three-star from the 90s. Which I appreciate very much. But come on. Come on. Also, just last night, we lost Tom Noonan. The Tooth Fairy himself from Michael Mann's Manhunter. Yeah. Oh, that's right. I'd forgotten that was him. Yeah. Francis Dollar Hyde. Yeah, he's the Francis Dollar Hyde in that. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, also the scary serial killer from Last Action Hero. What's that guy called? The Axeman? The Ripper? The Ripper. The Ripper. Great, great character actor. He passed away at the age of 74.

36:23He was absolutely terrific. He was Kane in Robocop 2 as well. He shows up briefly also for Michael Mann in Heat. He was absolutely terrific and he will be much missed. what else has happened? There have been some trailers. There was one for the film, I believe it's known as Din Djarin and Baby Yoda. Something like that, yeah. I believe that's what it's called. Now, when the first trailer for this came out, my feelings towards the world, I like it, I'm excited about it, it feels like an episode of the TV show. So my question to you, Helen, is how do you feel about the second one and do you think it feels more cinematic?

37:00Yes, I think it feels bigger. I think they've leaned into the Star Wars-iness of it all. With this episode, you know, it feels like they're getting a little... There's almost a theme crossover, musically speaking. They've taken, you know, the Goranson theme, but also mixed in some Star Wars sort of main... So it feels bigger. So it feels bigger just from that. And then you've got like some big monsters and you've got some huts, obviously, and you've got just a bit more scale. you also crucially have brought in and attracted a demographic by taking his fucking helmet off. Now, this is not a spoiler.

37:41It's all over this trailer. This is not the way, Helen. I know it's not the way. And yet, you know, his helmet is removed from him against his will, I think, initially. And then he just seems to go with it. He's like, shit, I'm real handsome under here. Maybe I should just leave him. I think he's aware of how handsome he is. I mean, I don't know. Why then does he wear the helmet all the time? Because this is the way, Helen. I think you should find a different way. It doesn't matter how hot you are. If you're a Mandalorian, you've got to keep your helmet on. I think it's good that Jon Favreau found a way to get Pedro Pascal to come to the set.

38:11So that's, you know, this is good that he's managed to take the helmet off. It's good to see his face. It's good to see his face. It's a good face. Also, canonically, I think he is moving, because bearing in mind, so he's a Death Watch Mandalorian, so he's a religious fundamentalist. Yes. So, and I think we'd even seen in the show, he's starting to move away from those slightly hardcore fanatical beliefs. So it does make sense. It does have a character. Yeah, I agree with that completely. I think it has a character and a sort of thematic purpose to it, potentially. And it also just allows a little bit more of the interaction with Grogu, which is super cute here.

38:44I enjoy that he's still pushing buttons and being a force for chaos. I enjoy that he still enjoys a good pram. And a macaroon. And a macaroon. And it gets quite cross when he's told not to stop eating and not to ruin his appetite. I enjoyed that. I thought, yeah, I just thought it was cute. Yeah. John, did this land with you? I mean, I liked it more than the last trailer. I'm relieved that they remembered to hire a cinematographer. Is it the same thing? Because I did have this with the first one. I thought, this feels small. It feels like television. It doesn't feel like cinema. Because, and I've said this before, when I went back to Rogue One at the end of Andor, it did make me realise that Star Wars films there is a breadth to the canvas there is a grandeur to them which even though Andor is arguably the best thing Star Wars has ever done like the TV shows as a rule haven't had that grandeur Andor's the closest that's come to it obviously but they felt quite small And Andor at least shot on location not volume I think that's a big reason I really do I think the location shoots make such a difference Yeah there are some really nice shots in this trailer the first trailer it looked like it was lit by you know they had the big lights on or something.

39:53It just felt a little bit flat for me. This feels a bit more like meaty, proper old school Star Wars. So I'm a bit more optimistic. It's starting to feel like, it's now starting to feel to me like this could be an event. Because I'd come into this thinking this was, oh, it's going to be, oh, it's like a feature length episode of the series. But actually I'm now starting to, oh, is this a Star Wars movie after seven years? Sorry, sorry, sorry. Sorry, seven years. Sorry, I forgot that there was not a film after the last year. Nine years, right? Nine years, yeah. Nine years, it's definitely nine years.

40:25When was, oh, really? Yeah. Since The Last Jedi, the last... So there wasn't, like, Solo wasn't after that? No, no, there was Solo, Rogue One, and then The Last Jedi, and then they just stopped. And they never made another one. They never made another one after that, yeah. And so now they're back with The Mandalorian and Grogu. Did this shed any light on what the story of this film is? Are we a little bit clearer about what's happening, or are we just titting around the universe? I think it's, as far as I can tell, it's a bunch of slugs having a big fight or something. It's just... Yeah, it's like the WWE Hutt stuff was a move.

41:00That feels quite Filoni-esque, all that stuff. It feels like it leans very heavily into kind of like the Clone Wars type sort of sensibility. But you do also get Din Djarin trying to track down a Hutt and asking Martin Scorsese, which of course is what you do, right, if you want to find a Hutt. so yes because Martin Scorsese is voicing a CG character in this movie yeah and he's in the trailer he's in the trailer and he's got the eyebrows he does have the eyebrows it literally looks like Martin Scorsese it's amazing wait this is cinema yes this is cinema yeah okay yeah and you've got you know Sigourney Weaver providing a voice of reason it sounds like counsel advice I don't trust her wow I don't trust her rude yeah I think she's up to no good She usually is these days.

41:45And you're up to know. In fairness, yeah. Shifty. Since the whole Sewell thing, I don't think she can be trusted. Tell you this, she went to see something at the theatre. She wouldn't invite you. I did go to see Sigourney Weaver at the theatre. I went to see Sigourney Weaver at the theatre. You did, didn't you? This was The Tempest, wasn't it? Yeah, and I was delighted to see her, but it was a terrible production. Yeah, it was dreadful. Oh, by the way, I saw High Noon the other week as well. Also not very good. It was... Chris's theatre reviews! so yeah it looks good I'm very I think I'm more on board for this than you are because I really like the Mandalorian show and I'm glad that it's getting away from the Mandalorian lore that bogged down the show in the third season yeah that was not it's high point because the reason why we love that show is because it's a stoic warrior who never takes his helmet off but is always played by Pedro Pascal titting around the universe with a cute little baby Yoda.

42:41With a baby. Yeah, and that's, they seem to go on. I want to see the baby. Give the people what they want. They want to see the baby. Would you like a libation before you go to see The Mandalorian and Grogu? Yes. Yes, indeed. So this looks like a ton of fun and it's just good to have a Star Wars back on the big screen. It is. I'm very on board with this. Yeah, fantastic. Good stuff. Well done, everybody. You said there was another trailer? I mean, there was another trailer. In fact, two trailers because Spider Noir, the new Nicolas Cage, live action sort of, I'm about to say Marvel TV show. It is a Marvel TV show.

43:13It's a Sony TV show, not a Disney TV show, but it is a Marvel TV show. It's a Spider-Man TV show. It's Spider-Noir, which is obviously the character that he voices in. Is this Spunk? It is. Well, it's not because it is. I don't think it is. It no longer exists. No. But it's Sony-owned, isn't it? Yeah. So it's very confusing. Anyway, so if I said, there are two trailers of this is what it's interesting. There is the Spider-Noir version in the noir-esque black and white. And then for stupid people, there is a colorized, It's not colorized, actually, it was shot in color. It's a color version of it.

43:41So you can watch it in black and white, or you can watch it in color, and you're going to be able to watch the show in either black and white and color as well. To be fair, the color stuff does look good, but I do think it loses quite a lot. Like, as in, obviously, it gains color. But the noir... Thank you. Are you okay, James? I may be having a stroke. The noir-ness of it, I think, really comes across in the black and white, and it looks really, really effective. So I think that's definitely the way it's designed to be seen. It's almost as if Sony executives said, younger audiences won't want something in black and white.

44:11We should probably present it in color as well, dear marketing folks. I can't really speak to their strategy, but that seems possible. Can I say that my big surprise with this trailer was not, oh, it's in black and white or oh, it's in color. It was, oh, it's live action and not, you know, animation. Because he was cool as an animated character. And much as we love Nicolas Cage's face, I was quite fine with just having his voice. So, yeah, that's a thing. But you can have his face now in black and white or color. I mean, wow. So is what you choose basically a statement about yourself? Yes. So John, you'll go black and white, right?

44:47Of course. Yeah. And also he'll change the language to something like Latvian and just read the subtitles. That's what it'll do. 100%. Wow. Now I think, do you know what? I think you do need the American of it. You need the hard-boiled 1940s private dick sort of, I want to feel like I'm watching a Raymond Chandler adaptation or something, you know? it needs to feel like I do think they are they've done a very good job of like bringing out those noir tropes but you do lose them a bit in the colour version like it does it doesn't feel right yeah it's a strange one because I watched the colour trailer first then went back I was like oh right now I get it like when I saw the black and white one I was like okay this is this is how they want you to see it yeah I'm excited for it I think it's a good looking thing I don't know I hope it's I hope it's just well written has a story I like you know Nicolas Cage obviously I like Lamorne Morris who's in it you know this is exciting this is cinema except it's not because it's TV yeah Lord and Miller are producing I don't think they're show running I think it's they're not it's Orion Uziel who's done a lot of work with them but it's got their their hands all over it they're premature their dabs are all over it Spider Noir it is on Prime Video soon right?

46:06Like a month and a half or something? Two months? Three months? We'll be reviewing it on the Pilot TV podcast. And indeed the Empire podcast probably as well but we shall see. We shall see. One thing we'll be reviewing on the Empire podcast when it gets made and it is getting made very very soon is a film that made quite a splash this week when it was announced. It is called simply Jason Statham Stole My Bike and it will star Jason Statham as and this is a stretch The Bicycle Thief Jason Statham. this is perhaps the greatest thing that cinema has ever brought us so thank you to David Leitch for making this film but it is Jason Statham playing Jason Statham in Jason Statham Stole My Bike a film in which I can only assume Jason Statham steals someone's bike maybe he steals all our bikes he may steal all the bikes yeah yeah because you know who is this my you know this first person in the title whose bike is stolen perhaps it is all of us Jason Statham stole our collective bike yeah if you're going to be meta go meta you know I'm super here for this I enjoy Jason Statham making fun of himself which I assume and hope and believe is what is going to happen in this film I think like if it's basically those scenes in Spy you know times 10 100 % on board can I just recommend anyone with access to YouTube look up the outtakes from those because they are like he just he'll say something that makes absolutely no sense it's completely ridiculous and they just burst out laughing yeah it's just it's brilliant You can hear Paul Feig in the background feeding him lines.

47:34Yes, and he's just really like, what the fuck is this? What is it? Some of those lines are ridiculous. Genius. I've swallowed enough computer chips and shat them out again to build a computer. I sewed on my own arm with my other arm. Melissa McCarthy's sitting there going, I don't think that's possible.

48:03oh good stuff so this is going to be apparently a big budget action comedy I'm guessing that Mai is a kid I'm guessing this is probably a kid who thinks that Jason Statham stole his bike and then goes on a I'm guessing they haven't released a logline but from the title this is what I'm extrapolating and then goes on a campaign to get Jason Statham to give him their bike back and then it leads to hijinks and shootouts and all sorts of stuff fantastic sounds good to me well done everybody time now for this week's guests yes Yes, yes, yes, yes. The Secret Agent is the Brazilian movie that is making all kinds of waves in the Oscar conversation.

48:40You make waves in a conversation? You can, and it is. It's a film set in the military dictatorship in Brazil in the late 70s, and it follows Fagner Mouros Marcelo, who is a tech researcher who takes refuge in the Brazilian city of, I've never pronounced his name before, so I'm probably getting it very, very wrong, and I apologize to all my Brazilians. friends Recife I'm gonna say Recife and this is a sprawling fantastic epic we've given it five stars we'll talk about it in review section in just a few minutes but it is directed by Kleber Mondonka Fuglio and stars of course Fagnamura it has been nominated for best picture and Fagnamura has been nominated for best actor and may well win and you never know and so we were delighted to talk to the two of them when they came into London recently.

49:32And Harry Stainer, who loves this movie, went along and had a lovely chat with them. Here you go. Do please enjoy. So yeah, I first saw this film at the London Film Festival and was completely blown away by it. It's set against the backdrop of the 1970s dictatorship in Brazil and explores interesting ideas around memory and time. But what I wasn't expecting was that there was this deep love of cinema running through it, especially among all things the film Jaws so to keep with the theme of memory I just wanted to know when did you both first watch Jaws and what was your memory of it? The first time I actually saw Jaws was in 1983 on VHS but I have to say that when I was about nine, which is 1977, I started seeing the poster for Jaws in many cinemas in downtown not only the poster but lobby cards each at the time the poster came with two lobby cards on the right side and that really played with the kids imagination the artwork you know the jaws coming from beneath and the swimmer on the top and that was so strong and it just played with my imagination so it really felt like I it was my first contact with the film, even if I didn't actually watch it.

51:00And the film was rated 14 at the time, and I wasn't allowed to see it. How can you remember that? You know, how do you remember that you watched it in 83? Oh, it's very easy. It's easy because we had just moved to England. My mother came to study in England, and we saw Jaws at a friend's house in London. And it was actually the first ever film I saw on VHS. It was rented by our friend and it was Jaws. And we had the great screening in the living room. The VHS time was so magical. I remember when we acquired our first VHS, when my father bought it. And the idea of going to a rental place and renting film.

51:54Bringing a film. bringing a film in a bag yeah that was fantastic that's how it felt and and soon after we saw jaws we we we bought our first uh vcr in england and that's 1983. okay so i guess that that memory of having uh like wanting to see jaws and then the vcr is kind of how uh the film kind of bled its way into this film i guess is there a wagner as well is there any films that you kind of like hold on to in terms of like VHS's or memories from that time? Yeah, The Exorcist I remember that I saw in my VCR and that was one that I saw by myself and it was and I shouldn't have done that because it was very scary.

52:43But I have to say that Jaws of course, besides my own watching it in 1983 it became a major cultural phenomenon in the 1970s, of course, and also in the city of Hisifia because Hisifia is a beach city and it ruined a whole generation in terms of going to the beach and swimming on the beach. And besides that, Hisifia also has a real shark problem. So it wasn't too hard to bring the shark element into the film and of course mention the cultural landmark that Jaws is and also mix it with my feelings of being a local, dealing with the fear of sharks on this lovely beach we have. I can see why in terms of if it's become such an ingrained part of your childhood, how it then kind of seeps into the film.

53:44I also was thinking in terms of iconic films. I when I watched the film was thinking about the title The Secret Agent like a ridiculous amount and I was just like this film title would sit like so well along so many like 1970s political thrillers like Three Days of the Condor All the President's Men The Parallax View could have been playing in the cinema within the film and it made me think about how like the title itself feels like quite self aware with how we engage with memory because we remember those films as like sleek and stylish but the reality of the world is like violent and brutal and terrifying as it is in this film was that contrast something you were like consciously playing it with when you like came up with the title is that like something you thought of well the first thing is uh the secret agent is a short and very sexy title.

54:39That's the first thing. The second thing is I guess I make, the films I make today, they come from the films that made me want to make films. And as much as I admire many contemporary films, I keep going back to the films, the original films that made me want to make films, and many of them come from the past, you know, from 50s, 60s, 70s, of course. Some people get annoyed at the whole 70s thing. Some people see it as fetish. I don't think it is, not for me anyway. You know, I remember I look at a film like Nashville, for instance, or McCabe and Mrs. Miller, or Close Encounters of the Third Kind, Jaws, Heaven's Gate, which was released in 1980.

55:38I really like the style of those films. I like how frank many of those films are, even if, you know, in the case of Close Encounters, it's a sci-fi fantasy in a way, but it's very frank and it's very well shot. And I like the style of it. You know, I love Duel. Spielberg's first experience of making a television movie, which was so amazing that it got a theatrical distribution internationally. So these films, they really showed me one interesting way, in my mind, to make films, and that's how I can explain the style. And, of course, the 70s was a time of paranoia and of surveillance, of, it's a very analog time also, very far away from the digital world we have today.

56:33And, you know, tapes, recordings, photographs, newspapers. So those become interesting elements, narrative elements for the film. That's why so many people associate The Secret Agent with the films from that era, because it's deeply rooted in the 70s. I wonder if that idea of memory also like extends beyond the cinema to how we remember like places and countries especially with how like we look we look through like our history a lot through like rose tinted glasses like we recently had 28 years later which touches on the way like nations mythologize their past especially in that context of like UK history and I kind of just wanted to ask you both like do you feel like the secret agent works as like a reminder of Brazil's history that risk kind of being like softened or forgotten because we often do tend to look back at times of like political upheaval and often like changing times through like a bit of a lens when actually the reality is a lot more scary and things that we should learn from.

57:34Well, I don't really remember a Brazilian film that looks at the past with kind of a romantic... There is usually a comeback to the past in Brazilian life. It's usually through kind of historical lenses. And I wanted to give the secret agent this very true sense of life, lived-in life, as if we had actually taken a time machine back to 1977. so not everything that you see in the film is bleak and violent people you see people living their lives and falling in love and being affectionate to one another and then you also see violence and brutality and disregard for human life which I think is part of the world and you can see the world today and just look at the news.

58:40So, but you know, we're living our lives and, and I think I don't see a lot of romanticism in, in the secret agent, but you see life being lived. And that's something that I really wanted to go for. No, I also think as well that, that kind of life being lived aspect, um, when I left the cinema, it kind of just, it kind of played around in my head for like days. This is like the first time in a while where I've left a film where like I just was like replaying parts of the the film the lovely moments as well as also the more brutal moments yeah um and Wagner I just wanted to ask so the last time this happened for me was actually when I watched Civil War another film that like constantly played in um my head and they're both films that kind of kind of tackle the effects of political upheaval um in very different ways like I think in Civil War your character is very much drawn into conflict.

59:33And Armando is obviously trying to escape it here. They make a very interesting double bill, I'd feel. And the look at how political tensions shape individuals. I was wondering, are you drawn to these kind of politically charged stories for a reason, or is it more the characters themselves that kind of bring you into them? I think that it's only natural that I'm very interested in. I mean, I'm a political person. I'm interested in politics. It's just natural that I'm drawn to projects that are also political. But also, of course, I mean, it always, when the politics are in front of everything, then it's not fun.

1:00:18You know, I think that you have to be, you have to have characters. The characters should be the thing that will open up a universe for you to live in. If the characters are not interested in multi-dimension, and like Kleber said, if they're not living their lives, and if we don't see ourselves in the characters, then the politics is not interesting. I think that the the yeah you go the the door is opened by the humanity of the characters and then you present you know a historic moment or politics or but of course I am drawn to projects like that and I think that there is a conversation between Civil War which is a film about the aftermath of a polarized situation with um with The Secret Agent, which is a historic film based on something that really happened, which was the dictatorship that we were under in Brazil from 64 to 85.

1:01:35I guess looking back on both the projects, is there anything that stayed with you about inhibiting these very different ways of witnessing conflict, I guess, political conflict? Is there anything that stayed with you from both these experiences? uh you would do very different films very very different experiences in terms of of of filming uh civil war was a very tough film to shoot it wasn't very uh pleasant uh to do it although i love the film i watched the film and it's it's interesting how films they don't reflect the process right in the case of the secret agent it was interesting because it was like it was i I was very happy throughout the entire process and the film ended up being great.

1:02:26But sometimes you're very happy shooting a film and the film ended up not being that great. You know, yeah, I was, for me, The Secret Agent was very special because I've been chasing Clever for a while and we've been trying to work together for a while. And this was the first time that I worked in Portuguese speaking my own language in 12 years. That was very special in that sense, too. And we are very happy with all the attention that we are receiving with this film. Basically, because it is a Brazilian film receiving all this attention from any awards season. by the way I think that Civil War is a film that should have received more attention than it did it's a very popular film it happened in the awards season it wasn't considered for anything it wasn't not even the technical the sound in that film is so fucking great you know and also Kirsten's Kirsten Dunst's work I think that I don't know how these things are you know but I I think that it should have received more, more attention than I feel the same about, I feel for simplicity to this in terms of like, they're both films that have really stuck with me and civil war is a film that I've gone back to.

1:03:53And I feel like this is a film I'm going to go back to where every time I've gone back to, I feel like I get something more out of it. And it's great to see filmmakers making these like strong political films. I also wanted to mention, you mentioned you wanted to work together for a while. So you both met at Cannes like 20 years ago. Yeah. Yeah. What, what was about this one that brought you finally together then? What's, what was it about the secret agent? I think it takes a while to get something going. I think I realized that I really needed to sit down and write a script for Wagner. Um, that's one way to make it work because my other films, uh, for example, Bacorao and neighboring sounds, their ensemble pieces and slowly I came to develop the characters and then I found the casting but this one I think it's closer to Aquarius because you have one main character the only thing is I never wrote Aquarius for Sonya, Sonya was a brilliant idea that came about after I had the script whose idea was that?

1:05:06was that you? I'm sorry? Whose idea was it? It was Pedro Sotero's idea. We were in my place, friends on Friday evening and drinking, and he said it, and I thought, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. And then it worked. But with Wagner, I really sat down and wrote the script thinking of thinking of Wagner as an actor of what he had done before of him as a person and I think it was a pretty good fit I think so too I believe that is all we have time for but congratulations on the film, thank you so much for your time and I'm sure I'm going to watch it again very soon, so have a lovely day guys, take care thank you okay, that was Wagner Moura and Kleber, Mendonca, Filio, and again, my apologies if I've absolutely mangled the pronunciation of those names.

1:06:07But let's talk about the secret agent right now, shall we? Hells Bells. So this is, as you said, about Vagnamora's character, who is a man called Armando, although he's going by Marcello. And he is traveling to Recife for reasons that are not initially clear. And it becomes gradually clear that he has fallen foul of the regime somehow. and that he is kind of going there as a kind of way station before he can be smuggled out of the country. There are various complications, which again, I won't get into in terms of getting him out. There's an element of paranoia throughout this. He's going by an assumed name.

1:06:46He's getting a job so he can kind of lie low. He's got a flat so he can lie low. The flat, for example, where he's living used to belong to his landlady's niece who was murdered. and there's just this pervasive air of potential violence basically around him at all times. One of the opening shots of the film is him pulling in to get fuel at a, you know, as a petrol station or a gas station if you're American, on the way to Recife. And there's just a dead body lying there on the side of the road. And it's been there for a couple of days and no one has come to claim it. So this is a country where violence is everywhere, but the sort of social order, I guess, has kind of broken down.

1:07:28Like, the police are so busy killing people and causing havoc that they're not necessarily doing their jobs and keeping, you know, literally picking up bodies and investigating murders. So it's clear that something is very, very rotten in the state of Brazil at this point. And really, that's kind of the film. This is not a film that leans into the kind of the events of living in a paranoid state. It's not about chases and secret midnight meetings, although there's a bit of both. It's not about murders and bodies being discovered, although there is a bit of both. It's about just the pervasive fear and unrest and unease that that creates in everyone, however loosely connected to the regime they might be.

1:08:14And it's a kind of a weird film. It does go off on this completely bizarre tangent about a body that someone has tried to dispose of at sea that's been eaten by a shark. And the shark was then fished up. And so when they cut the shark open, they find these body parts. And that's kind of started a murder investigation, which the police are then trying to quell because clearly they're involved. but like so there's a kind of surreal thing going on there and and this missing leg of this this this disembodied leg that was in the shark's belly at one point goes on a little adventure of its own and it's very strange um so it's not a film that's always grounded in reality right but it is a film that doesn't let you forget that something is is very badly wrong and it's it's a very strange film i'm i'm thrilled to see it you know up for oscars it's it's quite long it's well over two hours nearer three it's 161 minutes the wagner mora performance in this is absolutely off the scale great a lot of it is sort of just sitting and witnessing what's happening he's not always you know agitating he's not always going out and making himself the focus of events but he is so there's so much compassion in in his story and so and you're so sympathetic to him and everything he's been through um and i think he's he's just this magnetic presence even when he's just sort of sitting to one side in the scene i think he's he's absolutely incredible in it um so i'm thrilled to see him pick up an oscar the oscar nomination as well okay so it feels actually you're a little bit more mixed in it than we are we give it five stars why do we give this five stars i wouldn't even argue with the five stars i'm just sort of saying that it's not maybe what you expect you know this is not i don't understand why it made some of the decisions it did but i was entertained by them so I don't care.

1:10:00Right? So I wouldn't disagree with five stars. I might be more four and a half but only slightly. I don't have any strong objection to five stars because I think it's incredible. Okay. Well, we give it five stars. Five stars then for The Secret Agent. Very exciting indeed. Jimbo. Hello, Chris. Sorry. Tin Jim. No. Absolutely not. Tin Jim. Good luck. Have fun. Don't die. That's a good thing to say to me before every review, quite frankly. But this is the new Gore Verbinski film, which is exciting because it's been, what, 10 years? Since Cure for Wellness? Yeah. He's been in direct to jail for a while, but he has been paroled, and he's back now with this.

1:10:40And so this phrase, good luck, have fun, don't die, I am reliably informed by the kids, is something that gamers say on the internet. So make of that what you will. But you're a gamer on the internet, aren't you? Yeah. I am, but I've never encountered this, but then I try not to talk to people if at all possible on the internet. Yes, of course you do. Because, you know, they're frightening. just kill them from a distance indeed exactly which I think is good advice but this this stars your man Sam Rockwell as a time travelling person from the future and he arrives in a diner wearing an outfit that looks a lot like Bruce Willis might have worn it in 12 Monkeys and he tells the patrons in the diner that they have one chance to save the world I say one chance he's done it 117 times already but they have one more chance to save the world so he recruits a group of patrons from the diner and tells them that they have this one night to save the world from an AI apocalypse.

1:11:28They need to stop a small child from programming an AI that will essentially destroy life as we know it. So he manages to enlist some people, and they set off traveling, let's be honest, a couple of blocks to do this one thing. As part of that, we get little flashback episodes which fill in who these people he's recruited are. So you have Juno Temple, You've got Zazie Beetz and Michael Peña as kind of a pair of teachers in it as well. Haley Lee Richardson's in it. Asim Chowdhury's in it. So what this essentially is, it's a slightly, it's a really hard thing to explain, to be honest with you. I read it as a kind of surrealist satire.

1:12:07It's partly about modern culture. There's a whole thing on it about school shootings. There's a lot on it, as you might imagine, about AI and technology and our reliance on it and teenagers on their phones. There's a whole Romero vignette, which feels like teenagers on phones are zombies. You know, it's not exactly pushing the boat out that far. But these little backstories feel like almost capsule Black Mirror episodes that have been bolted onto this larger satire. So it's a really weirdly uneven structure. And then it's almost as if they give up on that idea halfway through because they get through a number of them and then just don't bother with the other ones.

1:12:40So you're like, okay, fine. I mean, it's quite long. It's like two hours and 20 minutes, two hours and 15 minutes. So it feels bloated already. So I wasn't all that sorry that it did it. I couldn't quite work out, A, what this film was for, or B, what it was doing. because as a surrealist satire, it's not Boots Riley, right? It doesn't lean into that in a completely kooky way. So it's almost like a dire sort of surrealist satire. It's a little bit weird. It's a little bit satirical, but it's also a little bit first base. I also found it quite punishingly boring because it is long. Oh, wow. And because it goes on these little tangents.

1:13:09And some of those little backstory Black Mirror episodes are actually quite good. The school shooting one is really kind of challenging and upsetting, partly in the way, in the kind of, what's the word I'm looking for? partly in the normalisation kind of yes partly in the kind of mood and the normalisation of it all like that's quite chilling actually and I think that one lands quite well but some of the others I don't think really landed the one about kids being zombies on their phones I was like yeah okay whatever it's a bit okay boomer it really is yeah and I think you know it wears a lot of its influences on its sleeves and what it's drawing from but at the end I just felt a little bit underserved by it and a little bit disappointed I was really excited that Gore Verbinski was back and this unfortunately didn't live up to the expectation Yeah, I give it a three because I was entertained for most of the running time, but I did see all of these, like you say, all of these sort of plot points coming.

1:14:00And I kind of wished I hadn't. And I think, you know, you have a thing here about like human cloning, which is very futuristic and very sort of sci-fi. And then you also have, oh, the teenagers are on TikTok too much, which is very like two years ago coded, you know, and it's like pick one. Like it doesn't, it didn't feel coherent really in that world building. And I just wanted more of Sam Rockwell is a madman from the future who may or may not be from the future and may or may not be out to save the world or might be just completely demented. And I kind of felt like that was a much more interesting story.

1:14:33And every time you cut to one of these vignettes, you kind of lost the impetus of that story. This is written by Matthew Robinson, who did things like Love and Monsters, which is really charming, or Dora and the Lost City of Gold, which was like 10 times better than it had to be. so he can do a sort of sharp funny little adventure caper and i think this one it apparently it was originally developed for tv and it feels like it's still got all these ideas mashed together without really hanging coherently it's not that i hated any of the ideas i just didn't think that they worked all as one in a film no it should have been a 90 minute in and out rollicking caper and I think it would have been superb.

1:15:17It's maybe two hours, right? It's two hours. It's two hours, 15. And it feels it, yeah. Like, there's just too many different ideas, too many competing ideas all jostling for position in here and it just ends up being confused. You think if they'd stripped out a lot of it and maybe brought their expectations down and just had a more sort of like laser-focused endgame, I think it would have been a better film. Yeah. So I give it three stars. That's fair. I think it's fair. For good luck, have fun, don't die. John. Hello. If I had legs, I'd kick you. Harsh. You do have legs, Chris. Kick him. Yeah, I can.

1:15:51He's too far away, but I was going to lunge from earlier on. But as it is, what I wanted to do is talk about if I had legs, I'd kick you, which is, of course, the long-awaited debut on the big screen of Conan O 'Brien. Wow. True story. He's been in a couple of things. He was in The Treasure of Foggy Mountain, a Please Don't Destroy movie, which I'm sure we all remember. All right. But yeah, this is unusually Conan O 'Brien. It's not his film. Let's be clear. He is a supporting role in this, but he's very, very good. And very, very un-Conan O 'Brien. He plays a therapist in a very understated way and it's not a showy performance at all.

1:16:29It's like, you know, he's sort of quite sad and a bit miserable and he's sort of brilliant. But anyway, we should not talk about him. Yes, we're accidentally focusing too much on Conan O 'Brien. We should not talk about him. I was just joking. It was just a joke. Rose Byrne's film this is a film yes rose burn is the lead of this film she plays a character called linda who's a therapist who is effectively a single mother her husband is out on it seems to be some sort of naval captain and is basically on on you know a long mission away at sea or something um so she's she's looking after her young daughter who has some sort of unspecified health issue which is like a feeding disorder yeah she has to have like a drip or she's fed sort of straight into her stomach yeah she won't eat um and so she's trying to navigate her very chaotic life looking after her daughter um doing her job as a therapist uh ironically somewhat somewhat not often the best advice being given i would say as a therapist and and also like trying to speak to her own therapist who was played by conan o 'brien um and this is a film by a director by mary bronstein um who is married to ronald bronstein who is one of the co-writers for a lot of safty brothers films josh safty is also a producer here and i think that is a very instructive way into this film this i've seen this film described as uncut gems for mums it is essentially that level of like chaos and stress and and just just sort of nervous frenetic energy it just sort of builds and builds and builds Rose Byrne's character makes terrible decisions she is just a chaos energy personified and it's sort of oddly funny it's like stressful to watch her like make all these really really poor choices but she's fantastic in it she's utterly compelling I think she got an Oscar nomination for this she did maybe the only Oscar nomination this film got which is a bit of a shame but it is like it's one of those performances where you are just sort of simultaneously want to look away and you can't stop looking it's magnetic to be fair it's the way I think Bronstein shot it is incredible because you so her daughter which is a crucial part of this story you almost never see her she's always off camera it's always just tight on Rose Burns' face as she just becomes increasingly unraveled.

1:19:11It is so relentlessly stressful and she's massively unlikable as well. I mean, honestly, the film is an ordeal. It is, and it's two hours long as well. It's incredible, but it's exhausting and it's annoying and it's upsetting and it's infuriating and the most sympathetic character is her sort of drug dealer neighbour, played by A$AP Rocky, who's a lot of fun. and Conan O 'Brien plays this weird therapist who has a slightly odd relationship with her as well and they kind of work opposite each other in the same hallway and then one of her patients comes in and abandons a child and there's Danielle MacDonald right and so many different things happen and it's almost like you think this couldn't get any more stressful and then another plate is added to her stack so by the end you're just like I need to have a lie down so I'm not sure I enjoyed this film I'm not sure anyone will enjoy this film but I am sure it's good.

1:20:05I think some people will find it cathartic and almost cleansing to see this level of honesty about the shit show that is parenthood, not just motherhood, but certainly motherhood in this case. Or certainly single parenting, without support or help. And we didn't even mention there's been problems with her flat, so she's trying to sort all of that out. She's in a slightly one-sided war with a parking attendant. But like, an interesting thing is I talked to both Bronstein and Byrne for this. And Bronstein said, basically, she makes the only possible right choice every moment for her. Like, yes, of course, it would be better if she lit a scented candle and took a bath.

1:20:51Instead of maybe, I don't know, getting out of her mind with A$AP Rocky each night. She is also insomnia, by the way. but um but that is she is not capable of making that decision she is making the only possible decision that she can make in these circumstances at every turn and yes they are terrible decisions but that's kind of the way it is i think the the gimmick i guess or the gimmick is is a harsh word but the the choice to not have the child who's played by delaney quinn on screen she was present when they were shooting she was always there it wasn't like a child labor thing she was always there so rose burn had somebody to react to but it's kind of it's not about her and it's not about blaming the child for what this woman is suffering it's about but it is about the relentlessness of caring for a sick child and the relentlessness of being a parent and a mother in particular and and i think that is a really really smart decision because it absolutely puts you there with rose burns linda at every single moment i think it's an astonishing film yeah it's not easy but it's really really effective Bronstein seriously is a massive talent I mean this is her second feature I think and yeah this is a big step up I think from her first alright we give this one four stars and four stars for If I Had Legs I'd Kick You Rose Byrne gonna win the Oscar?

1:22:14Probably not but honestly I think she maybe should she's very very good you know I love Hamnet and you know I love Jessie Buckley but I think this is a degree of toughness beyond that. If anyone's going to take out Buckley, it's Byrne. Right? Sick Byrne. I would watch that cop show. Byrne and Byrne. Can you imagine? Byrne and Byrne. Fucking that'd be amazing. I don't know. I'm torn between rooting for the Irish woman and Moira McTigert. It's too tough. It's too tough. Anyway, four stars in for If I Had Legs I'd Kick You. We're going to be joined on next week's podcast by Rose Byrne, which is very, very exciting.

1:22:51John, we're going to stick with you now to talk about Wasteman. Wasteman. Wasteman, yes. This is a very different film. This is a British independent film, a debut from writer-director Cal McMill. And this is a prison movie. And, you know, there were many prison movies and you sort of get a sense of what a prison movie is. And to some extent, this does follow that formula. You know, it's a sort of gritty tale from the inside. it's very tough turns out being a prisoner um uh but what i've really appreciated about this uh is how gritty it is it feels like it's in a sort of social realist tradition in some ways it's a little bit like a sort of modern scum in some ways but it's also like it feels like it's speaking to what is happening in prisons and specifically british prisons right now so um David Johnson plays a prisoner called Taylor, who's been in prison for over a decade.

1:23:53And then an opportunity arises for him to get parole because of an early release program that the government is introducing because of overcrowding in prisons, which is actually a real thing. The government have been trying to release prisoners who have good behavior because they need to get rid of, they need to find space, basically. so he just needs to have some good behavior and he'll be out of prison in a few weeks but then along shows a new cellmate played by Tom Blythe from Hunger Games called Dee who is a slightly more dangerous presence he's chaotic, violent and he runs a tuck shop I'm not sure that's what they would be called in a prison but a shop out of his cell and suddenly the danger sort of increases for for taylor and maybe his his chance of of getting getting out of prison is is is lessened what what is so interesting about the way this story is told is like it it it plays into what prisoners are doing these days which is videoing on mobile phones their experiences there's a lot of shots which are just like the the vertical frame you know the portrait mode that you get with phones um and a lot of it feels like kind of verite it feels like real there are a few shots that are like is this a real shot this it's really well done um and i really appreciated the performances as well david johnson i mean we know now is you know one of our best new actors and i love how versatile he's been in every film i've seen him And this is so different from Ryle Lane or alien Romulus.

1:25:33He's so understated and sad and a bit desperate and clearly broken by the institution. And Tom Blythe is astonishing as well. Very, very sinister and threatening and just this sort of looming presence. I really love this. I thought this was really interesting. It's really well shot. It shows really like a lot of promise from Cal McMahon. out uh you know it is essentially a prison movie it isn't totally breaking the the the mold but i but i was very impressed by this so we gave this one four stars four stars fantastic four stars then for waste man and david johnson and tom blythe will be on this week's edition of the interviews along with asem chowdhury who is in good luck have fun don't die and on that note That is it for this week's Empire podcast.

1:26:25Join us next week for more film-related fun, where we'll be joined by... Well, there's Rose Byrne, there's Nev Campbell, there's Amanda Seyfried and Mona Fastfold, star and director of The Testament of Anne Lee. Nev Campbell, of course, star of Screen 7. One of those would be the main guest, the others would be in the interviews. It's all very, very exciting. But until then, until we meet again, until that auspicious occasion, it is goodbye from my three colleagues of such lethal cunning. Goodbye, John Nugent. Goodbye. Goodbye to you. Goodbye, Helen O 'Hara. Toodaloo. Goodbye, Tin Jim. It's Dr.

1:26:59Doom to you. Dr. Tin Jim. No, absolutely not. That may be my favourite of all the nicknames so far. No. Tin Jim. And it's goodbye for me. I'm off to go to Palpatine's Pancakes for a lovely, lovely slice of a buttercream pancake. What the fuck is that? That doesn't make any sense. You want this? Don't you? Take it. Strike me down. Take your father's plate of pancakes. Bye-bye. You probably could make pancakes with buttercream, like as an ingredient. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. That's what I'm fucking saying. You wouldn't. No. Thanks for listening. See you next time. Bye-bye.