For The Love Of Bagpuss (ft. guests Sean Penn; Cillian Murphy & Tim Mielants)

28:02So the universe was telling us to cast him. Yeah, absolutely. Meant to be. It's almost depressing how relevant this film still feels in terms of education cuts and grandstanding MPs and all the rest. But was it important that it be set in the 90s? Well, I mean, the novel is set in the 90s, and I think Max was determined to keep it in the 90s. He's obsessed with Jungle and drum and bass. And I think you just highlighted why it still speaks to now, because those problems are always going to be there. They were there in the 90s. They're there now. They were there in the hundreds of years ago, but they're just exacerbated now.

28:49And they're writ large in a way that we can't kind of ignore them. And everyone is so communicated. Everybody is so hyper connected now that it's more acute. But also the music was so good. And I was that age back then. I was that age of the boys. so for me it was kind of like fairly melancholic bit of time trouble so given how quickly this came together on Small Things Like Lease can we expect your third film in this little series pretty soon then? I mean hopefully thank you so much lovely to talk to you both and congratulations on the film thank you so much okay that was Cillian Murphy and Tim Milons who were talking to me this week.

29:38All right, it is time for some movie news. Has there been any movie news this week? It has been something of a drought recently, I think I'm right in saying. Oh, yeah. As the news editor of Empire, it's been a super chill week, guys. I've just been sat like asleep in my chair with my sunglasses on. Having the best time. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Cocktail in hand. Definitely not manic. Okay, so what is the big news for you then this week that you've just been chilling about? Just chilling and doing absolutely nothing about. So, there have been some great trailers that have come out the last few days. Yeah, let's talk trailers.

30:13I want to talk about Anaconda first. What in the name of holy Jennifer Lopez is going on with that? I don't know, but I'll be honest, I'm slightly here for it. I guess it's what happens if Anaconda crashed into Tropic Thunder, and that's what I think this film has become. Yeah, no, like the premise I am all about. I think this is a great premise. So for those who haven't seen the trailer, first of all, go watch the trailer. The premise is that Jack Black and Paul Rudd play mates, apparently normal people, not movie stars, who want to remake Anaconda and they try and get a loan so they can go and remake the film Anaconda and they can't get a lot of money.

30:53So they're doing it on a shoestring and then wouldn't you know it, there they are filming in the jungle and there's an actual gigantic snake that attacks. I mean, that's a great, it's a great premise. It's a good premise. I mean, I just worry that... I really like this idea that we're acknowledging that it's a remake and that remakes are a certain kind of thing and we're doing it anyway. But I really enjoy all of that. I'm worried that it's not very funny. So far. I mean, that's a problem. Do you know what? Obviously, I am the arbiter of all things humour. I thought it was gigglesome. You giggled?

31:31Okay, okay. It made me chuckle. and I think partly because it is just deranged. And I found that with Tropic Thunder, although Tropic Thunder has a number of problems these days, but I, you know... But it's commenting on those things. It is, it is, it is, yes. It's thoughtful about it. But it's genuinely very, very entertaining and Jack Black brings that very sort of chaotic, frenetic energy. Yes. Which is very much in play here. And it's such a stupid idea and they're being so stupid with it. I'm prepared to give it the benefit of the doubt yeah I like to think that every night Jack Black goes home and puts himself in a sort of cryogenic container and just has to power down for like 12 to 14 hours to give us that presence that he has every time that he's awake in daylight and I mean he has this here I mean Minecraft Christ knows how he pulled that off for as long as he did but this it seems like he's tapping into that energy again Paul Rudd is just being Paul Rudd at this stage I feel like he's sort of Yeah he just plays Paul Rudd If you're Paul Rudd why play anything else?

32:31Exactly that. If you can be Paul Rudd, be Paul Rudd. Yeah, of course. And Tandaway Newton, I'm really excited to see her do something silly. Yeah. I can't remember the last time I've seen her, not to say that she hasn't been in silly stuff. Well, she was in The Chronicles of Riddick. Oh, good Lord. Yes, that's just thrown me completely. That really was a film, wasn't it? It really was a film. It really was a film that happened. Very excited to see her being a silly goose. And yeah, I mean, if they're going to make a film like this, if they're going to make a remake, and I guess anything is fair game now.

33:03At least they've taken a very meta and silly and self-reported. Sorry, anything is fair game now. I think Anaconda was 100 % fair game. Like, if you're going to remake something, I would rather have it be Anaconda than, like, Citizen Kane. You know, like, that's okay. I agree. Much as I love Owen Wilson and Jennifer Lopez and most of the rest of the cast, with one huge exception, I have no problem with them remaking it in theory. I do slightly worry that the snake looks exactly like the basilisk in Chamber of Secrets, as opposed to looking like any snake that might exist in nature on this planet.

33:38I did take umbrage with a very small amount of snake time. Dolores umbrage. Oh, no. Oh, my God. With the small amount of snake that we did see, it looked very unthreatening and, yeah, not the source of great peril. The big one, though. It's a big old snake. It's a big old snake. but I think the special effects just made it look a little bit less. Maybe they're trying to keep it sort of era appropriate to the original Anaconda. So they've used the same effects. Maybe so. Well, it all remains to play for. We look forward, of course, to seeing if our Anaconda do want none. And if they have fun, son, come whenever this is out.

34:19What else we got news-wise? Star Wars. We have a Star Wars picture, a picture of the Star War. So this is Star Wars Starfighter. We've got a new photo. It is Ryan Gosling and Flynn Gray on set, except it doesn't look like Star Wars. In fact, it looks like Waterworld too, because they're just... They're on a boat. On a boat, which is... I mean, look, I'm not one to judge, but you say Star Wars, I don't immediately think kind of maritime adventures, and yet here we are. They're on a boat in the sea. I mean, sometimes starfighters crash, and sometimes they crash on water, not land. Well, it would have to be a water planet, Helen, because as we know, there is only ever one biome on a Star Wars world.

34:55Yeah, this is 100%. It's going to have to be a water world. It is. Oh, no. Yes, indeed. I don't know. So, let's look at Gosling. He's looking quite tuzzled. Yes, he's got a nice shiner. Yeah, yeah. Little black eye. He's got some leather gloves on and some, I don't know. Well, it's a top, isn't it? I'll say it. What I'm looking at here is a stone-cold scallywag. He does have... Whoa, steady on. He does have scruffy-looking nerf herder energy. I will give you that. I mean, you say that like it's a bad thing. Historically in Star Wars, that's a really good thing. Yeah, it does have well. Oh, all the best ones are scoundrels.

35:28Yeah. They do have Star Wars energy. Like they've got stripes on their trousers a little bit. They've got, you know, holsters for, you know, weapons that might actually looking at it be missing. He seems to be leaning on... Is that a tiller? I think this is an improvised raft that is mostly half-sunken ship, if I'm honest. So, you know, hopefully they figure out a way through that. He's got two gloves on. In Star Wars terms, that presumably means he has no hands. Am I right? Well, gloves do tend to indicate that you've had a hand cut off. Exactly. So that's exciting to see. Although he has hands on the poster.

36:03Look, my point is... I'm intrigued, but I don't understand what's happening and I would like to know more. I'm excited if it is on location. I'm excited for some on-location shooting, always. Over the green screens. So that could be fun. Absolutely. I don't know, we've not had much water-based hijinks in Star Wars, to my knowledge. I know I'm in a room with people who know a lot more than I do. Well, of course, if you refer to the cloning planet of Geonosis, that is, of course, very, very wet, generally. And there's a great big battle in the spray, isn't there? And there's the submarine chase in the Phantom Menace.

36:34We don't talk about that. There's always a bigger fish. And then, obviously, like, Obi-Wan's on the little tiny island just off the coast of Kerry. I mean, that planet. Ahto. Ahto. Yes. But this is like, oh, I guess a submarine. And of course, Helen meant Luke, not Obi-Wan. Just saying. I did. Star Wars faux pas. Oh, no. Honestly, the Porg is out of the bag. Oh, my God. Well, the Porg was actually a puffin that they couldn't paint out. Just saying. Many, many puffins that they couldn't paint out. So instead, they leaned in. But yes, exciting that it's actually happening. It's moving forward. It's being shot.

37:07Yeah. Great cast. All of which are good things. Yes. Can we talk about Mole Man? Can we? So, Paul Walter Hauser has been cast in Zack Kreger's Resident Evil. Yes. Oh, so we're not talking about Mole Man. except that he played Mole Man. It's not like a Mole Man spin-off Yeah, it's not a crossover. Fantastic Four. Okay. Yeah. So he's in Zack Kreger's... He is in Zack Kreger's Resident Evil. Resident Evil. Resident Evil. And this is the follow-up to weapons, as it were, in the sense of the Zack Kreger filmography. But not like Weapons 2. But not like Weapons 2. Yeah, exactly. Although it will have weapons, because otherwise that would be bad because Resident Evil.

37:42Yeah. So this is an adaptation of one of the games? Yes. Yes, Helen, that's right. you have correctly identified. He says, desperately scanning the news story to find out. Do you know what? I have absolutely no idea. I know that Zach Gregg has talked a lot about how it's going to be very different. And it's, I think it's fairly safe to say it will not be close to the Paul W.S. Anderson Resident Evils, I would imagine, in content or tone. So you mean the virus won't dry up the rivers? I mean, look, viruses do that, Helen. You just need to accept the viruses do that. Yeah, look, after weapons, and Zach Gregg can do no wrong, really, with me.

38:16So I'm excited to see what is done with this. And also, I'm not so wedded to the IP. Oh, it's not faithful enough. All right, I wish they'd adapted this. I don't care. Like, I don't think it matters. I just think he'll do something cool. And like, if you like Resident Evil, you know, maybe you'll find some stuff fun. But Resident Evil, and I say this with love, it's fucking nonsense. Like, the games are gibberish. They make absolutely no sense. The mythology is a jumbled mess. You know, you go from kind of Hills Has Eyes type, like crazy people. to like there's a the most recent one was almost like a Universal Monsters reunion they had giant baby demons and a 10 foot vampire it's wild stuff werewolves all over the place so like I said there's no consistency because apparently the tyrant virus can do everything from turning you into a zombie to a vampire a werewolf make you fly turn you into a sea monster it's very versatile dries up rivers I mean like yeah I'm never going to get over this yeah it's where COVID was going essentially is what I'm saying well I don't know what this line is what is the It is a genuine line in, I think, Resident Evil 3, where they say the virus dried up the rivers.

39:21Yeah. Okay. And you're like, I don't think it can. It's one step away from the neutrinos are mutating. Right. And possibly a downward step. Like, it's really bad. Okay. I don't love it. Anyway, hey-ho. So many questions. But new Resident Evil, what a time to be a gamer. What a time to be a gamer. What a time. There was also the trailer for The Housemaid. Yeah. I have not seen this. I am well excited for this. This is Paul Feig on Simple Favour Form. I think it's based on a book. It is, I believe, yes. It is based on a best-selling book, no less. It's sold over two million copies. So there that is.

39:59Sydney Sweeney comes to the family home of Amanda Seyfried's character to become a housemaid, only for things to not be as they seem. But the trailer doesn't... It tells us explicitly that nothing is what it seems, but not why. and it's got a very breathy Sabrina Carpenter song over the top just lots of mellow drama they put Sidney Sweeney in glasses to try and make her look less sus oh she's all that style yeah and a turtleneck so she shows up all there doe-eyed and preppy but it looks like a hardcore psychological thriller very camp and silly and blonde women setting things on fire and I just can't wait for this It looks insane.

40:45I was kind of wondering on the basis of just purely on appearances if there's a bit of single white female going on. I think there is a little bit. I genuinely had to focus a couple of times on going, right, is that Seyfried or is it Sweeney? So I think there's going to be some interesting like, ooh, who did what and to whom and why questions. We're having a bit of a resurgence in these kind of films because there's a new Ham that brought the cradle that's been made as well that's incoming. It feels like those kind of late 80s, early 90s, sort of like little pot boilers. It's almost like women are on the verge of a nervous breakdown.

41:18Almost. Yeah. I wonder why. Ready to take up arms. I don't know. Could lead to something. Let's hope not. Two women definitely on the podcast this week. Wow. What will happen, eh? What will happen? Emmys, obviously this week, we'll discuss those on the Pilot TV podcast on Monday. And all got one. Yeah. One. which is obviously like about 17 too few but it was for writing Dan Gilroy yes for that block which was amazing yeah so I can't really argue with that very very excited about that I do think it should have got more I think but again it wasn't going to because it fundamentally didn't even get nominated in the acting categories genre which I think was ridiculous but the less said about that the better dominated by the studio the pit and adolescence but you know I have no I have no complaint can't really argue with any of those we haven't seen the pit here in this country or at least normal people haven't James, maybe you have.

42:10I have. I saw it on the plane on the way to Florida last month. There you go. Very exciting. It lives up to the hype. It's very, very good. The other two are stunning and the studio, for anyone who hasn't seen it, I think is genuinely one of the best things about Hollywood ever made. Love it. It's very, very good. Very good indeed. If we're straddling the TV film divide, we should say The Summer I Turned Pretty, which has become something of a YA phenomenon based on the books and the belly love triangle. If you know, you know. I don't know what team you are, Beth, but it's continuing as a film.

42:38it's becoming a film so it finished recently it had its finale and apparently the story is going to continue on the big screen or at least on the small screen in a feature format I was about to say like they don't always release their films do they yeah okay so yeah I was with a friend yesterday and got to break the news to her she's a big fan and if anyone in North London saw a large flock of birds just take off all at once it was because of the reaction of said friend like this has an absolutely bonkers huge fan base doesn't it yeah It's a phenomenon. Even I seem to know that there's a very small wedding ring involved, like a comically small wedding ring.

43:13There was lots of discussion about the size of the stone, the size of the ring, whether he would have bought that ring. Yeah. Yeah, it was surprisingly controversial. Yes. I think this film is going to be absolutely huge. And this is about, this is a love triangle story, basically, that they've somehow dragged by over a bunch of series already. It's had, I want to say, I think there are three or four books in total. I can't remember because I have not read them because I'm not a teenage girl despite my film taste. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I must admit, so it's a show I don't watch. We watched the first episode on Pilot Plus because we were, our listeners did complain that we hadn't reviewed The Summer Return Pretty so we all watched it and it was good and I did not watch any more of it.

43:51I'm so sorry. So I don't really know the latest and I don't know how the series ends but maybe I'll catch up for the film. It's got some connective tissue with To All The Boys I've Loved Before, right? I think it's either the same writer, the same author, right, yeah. Well, that was fun so okay, well, Maybe I should catch up on it sometime. Maybe I won't. You won't. I don't know. Probably not. No. It's no foundation. I don't. I feel there's a lot of better TV I think I need to catch up on. Yes. Agreed. I've still got an episode of Alien Earth to go. I mean, my dance card is just full. Yeah. Anyway.

44:24Anyway. We should also talk about the biggest news of the week. Very sad news that Robert Redford passed away at the age of 89. He was, of course, the actor, director, producer, founder of the Sundance Film Festival, and genuine all-round legend who has been on the silver screen since 1960-odd, and been a star for most of that time. Yeah, last seen on screen at the end of the last decade in The Old Man and the Gun, and of course in a tiny, tiny role in Avengers Endgame. But yeah, this was a blow, I think, even though he was 89, and I think not in great health just recently. It still felt like a real shock to everyone somehow.

45:07Yeah, absolutely. A real loss. And it's been so lovely to see all the outpouring of tributes this week. Not to shamelessly plug, but we have a wonderful piece that Christina Newland has written for us, which is on the website. And she had the pleasure of meeting him not that long ago. And it's a really, really beautifully written emotional tribute. So please do check that out if you want a little bit more from us on that. Yeah, what a legacy. beyond I'm less versed on his directing but it's been lovely to see things like Scarlett Johansson's done a bit of press for Eleanor the Great which is her film that she's just directed and she said that she was inspired by him when she was on The Walls Whisperer that was one of her early roles wasn't it yeah and you know the Sundance Institute and what he was able to do for filmmakers like Tarantino and Soderbergh got massive kind of boosts from having their work shown at Sundance practically every cool filmmaker you know started off either at the Sundance Festival or in the Sundance Labs.

46:05Like Ryan Coogler and that entire generation met at the Sundance Labs and started, you know, sort of cheering each other on, you know. Chloe Zhao and people, I think, as well. And yeah, Soderbergh, Paul W.S. Anderson, Quentin Tarantino, etc. Kevin Smith, like you name it, they started at Sundance. It's been a hugely, hugely important thing. And he wasn't like running it day to day in recent years, but he was the guy who set it up. that's why it has its name. Yes. Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid. True story. True story. Star of sneakers. I mean, yeah. I mean, look, this was my introduction, I think, to...

46:41I wrote about this this week, but that was my introduction, I think, to Robert Redford, and it was because I wanted to see River Phoenix. Let's be honest, it was the 90s. But even then, I was like, who's this guy? He's really cool. And obviously then went back and found Butch Cassidy and The Sting and all the rest. interesting this week that he got very very you know deeply felt tributes from Jane Fonda and Barbra Streisand among the many many others but I just thought it was interesting that like two of the most no nonsense will not take any shit women in Hollywood going this guy was one of the goodens you know that's something that's a pretty good legacy to leave behind yeah and there were also just a lot of great stories the old chestnut about he didn't get cast in The Graduate because He was too good looking.

47:28Mike Nichols didn't believe he'd ever struck out with a woman. And he literally didn't understand the concept. Sucks to be Dustin Hoffman. Yeah, doesn't it just? There was also a great, great quote from, I don't know who it came from, I just thought it quoted by somebody else online. Somebody asked a female film journalist around the time the Indecent Proposal came out, would you sleep with Robert Redford for a million dollars? And she goes, oh sure, but where would I get a million dollars? and that's in his what 50s or 60s so you know yeah but I mean just I mean pretty much pick a Redford film at random almost like you'll have a good time The Natural one I didn't watch until a couple of years ago but that's great The Candidates The Great Waldo Pepper I have a real soft spot for Rod Lurie's The Last Castle with James Gandolfini again I'm not sure that you can't class it as one of his best films but there's just something about that film I love I think he's fantastic yeah All the President's Men it's a good time for All the President's Men right now it is I swear but that's something that he shepherded onto the screen and actually like was encouraging them to write the book that it was based on beforehand like he's he was all over that so yeah it's great it's absolutely great to look back at the films that he leaves behind even though it's very very sad to say goodbye to him so that was Robert Redford who died this week at the age of 89 years old Okay, I think it's time for another guest.

48:56And boy, do we have a good one today. Now, this is for a film that is out next week. This is One Battle After Another, which is the new film from Paul Thomas Anderson. This is the story of, gosh, it's quite sweeping. It's the story of a kind of band of revolutionaries led by Tiana Taylor and her slightly more hapless right-hand man, played by Leonardo DiCaprio, and how they cross paths with a tough military type called Lockjaw, played by Sean Penn. And true to his name, he grabs on and won't let go of them and becomes kind of obsessed with bringing them down. It's a bit of a return to the screen for him.

49:37He feels like he hasn't been around much in the last few years, but he is, of course, the guy who broke through in the 80s who was kind of an enfant terrible, if you will, of the early 80s, matured into one of the best actors in the world in the 90s And yeah, it turns out still really good. So yeah, we sent along Alex Godfrey just to talk to him this week in London. Just a word on this. This kind of starts mid-interview because they were just chatting and then the tape went on and they just kept chatting. So don't worry, you haven't missed anything. But please enjoy Alex talking to Sean Penn. How was last night?

50:14There was a screening and a Q &A, I think, Leicester Square. Yeah, I think it was a good Q &A. We were only there for the Q &A. We weren't at the screening. We came late afterwards. Do you watch your films again? I went to the Los Angeles premiere. Yeah. Saw it there. And I think I'm going to sit through it tonight because I've got some friends that are coming and I haven't watched it. Yeah. This is a pretty watchable film. That's true. I could watch, notwithstanding me, I could certainly watch all the other actors many times over. When it gets to this point, can you watch it and detach from the fact that you're watching yourself?

50:54Can you see the overall? I think I always detach from the fact that I'm watching myself. Really? Because there's so many actors who just cannot even watch the films once when they're done. Yeah, I don't pay a lot of attention to me when I'm watching the film. I already know what's there. And so I can kind of, that's interesting how this theater has this thing. but not because I'm not taking anything away or giving anything myself. I think once I've done it, I'm detached. It just happens. But this movie, I'm not detached from at all. I'll watch this movie over the years, I think, a lot because the movie is so...

51:36I'll say it this way. Paul Thomas Anderson is freaking touched. He's got original, but original not in the sense that it separates itself from others, this movie becomes interactive with the audience. The audience makes a great film even greater watching it, and that was what was exciting about it. And it was also a real tribute to that ancient thing we call the movie theater. This is really a movie that should be, an effort should be made to see in the theater, not only because of the image and the vista vision of some of the theaters, but because there's a, I think the audience gets a bond watching it and they don't miss anything.

52:29From, it doesn't matter the gender or the color or the age. My experience watching it at that premiere was that everybody in the room understood every nuance. So it's a very shareable experience, even if original. Well, it's interesting, isn't it? Because there's so much going on in it. It's an action film and a family drama and a political drama slash thriller. And there's a lot that it's tackling politically, but it's completely accessible. It's mainstream. You know, like you're saying, you don't get lost. I mean, it's over two hours and 40 minutes, but it's so propulsive. and he's taking on so much with it in terms of what he's exploring and the characters he's doing that with.

53:13But you never feel like he's on a soapbox or hitting you over the head with it. That's the, for what, you know, considering all that's involved with it, there's a lightness of touch, which I think is extraordinary. Yeah, well described. You were talking just earlier about, you know, his talent and he's always, you know, right from the off he's been incredible. I did read the other day that it was too late by the time you wanted to do it, but you had an inclination to play Adam Sandler's character in Punch Drunk Love. Is that? Well, it wasn't so much that it was too late. I wasn't his choice for that role.

53:51He asked me to play another role after he had already cast Adam. But once I read the script, I thought, you know, I really, this was something I wanted to do. And I said, let's wait till the next time. I mean, I love it. We'll get on to Lockdure again and One Battle in a minute. But I love that you were attracted to that role because I love that film and I love what Sandler did with it. I did too. So you read it obviously before it was shot. Considering that you thought, oh, I'd love to do that myself and considering that you were obviously attracted to what that character was, What was it then like seeing another actor interpret that in ways that I imagine were different to what you might have had in mind?

54:37I detached and I just saw Adam Sandler's version. He's great. And it was a total surprise because this is a case of point. That was his interpretation of it. And it was great. Yeah. It had nothing to do with my interpretation of it. Do you know what? So this might be a cheesy thing to say, but I was because I read that you I read that about you. And I was thinking about this film. Obviously, the character in Punta Drunk Love doesn't have much in common with Lockjaw. But they're both really angry men, tightly coiled with very short fuses. And they're both sort of constantly on the verge of boiling over with rage, which I thought was interesting.

55:21I mean, they're not obvious bedfellows. But there's something about these men who can't control themselves that Paul writes really well. I wondered what your take on that might be. Well, answering the question invites me to do what I consider a spoiler, which I don't want to do. OK. I'm kind of religiously don't want to talk about what I think of, you know, confirming or denying. your description of the character may well be the case but there's a big difference between you objectively observing something and sharing it with your audience and when from the source it gets then then they have less of the experience that I had when I read the script the first time I just want it I want this whole film to be originally interpreted I had such a great time reading the script and being surprised on every level where no actor had gotten in my way by telling me, you know, what they think of their character in this way or that.

56:27I don't want to be bothered with that. I want to just see it. Yeah. Had you stayed in touch with Paul over the years? Yeah. Had he spoken about this film? I know you were in Lickford's Pizza, but he said he's been working on this for a couple of decades or so. Had he spoken to you about it? I think he had, you know adam sumner in particular um a couple of what i would call his uh skiff mates those are the close hold department i wasn't that close with him you know in a consistent way but otherwise he holds things pretty close and so no i i didn't i had no idea what i was reading until i got it i think he said um i mean i assume you would know this correctly if i remember that he wrote this part for you?

57:16I'm not even sure of that, but I think he has said things that indicate that, and I've never investigated it. Okay. I mean, but having maybe heard that, could you see, do you know what it might have been about you that he thought would work? What I know is that when I read the script, I was laughing a lot, and I pretty quickly heard what I thought was the music he was writing. And by that, I mean who this character was and how, and kind of, I could feel things happening in my body that were going to go there. And that was making me giggle a little bit. And it was written so well that there wasn't a lot of second guessing.

58:01Yeah. You know, you just kind of say, well, this is the private letter he's writing to me within this script. So I'm going to listen to it, block out everything else, I should say just for our listeners, let me briefly sum up Lockjaw, but Colonel Stephen Lockjaw. I mean, I've talked about his personality a little bit, but he's after Leonardo DiCaprio's character, Bob, who's a fugitive in hiding because of the freedom fighting from his younger years. And Lockjaw is, let's just say, in pursuit. There's something Terminator-esque about him. He won't stop. What I love about him is that he has no redeeming features.

58:46Unless people would disagree with that, I can't really see any. He's very human in ways that you give him all of these dimensions. He's got this very physical manifestation of insecurity. It's almost like he's a little boy trying to protect this air of power, and it doesn't quite, it's not really becoming of him. But Leonardo DiCaprio was saying that you added stuff to it that wasn't on the page, certainly in terms of this sort of insecurity and some of the physical things you did with it. Can we talk about that at all in terms of what you wanted to bring to him physically? Because he's got this, you're just watching him on screen all the time and the guy can, he doesn't really know how to express himself.

59:31I mean, I suppose just in a general way that you could say that with material like this, so by way of example, if someone writes down morality, what does that mean to the person who's reading it? Well, if you erase that word in context of everything and you put lethality, then how does that affect things? And which one is more sacred? Yeah. To who? Right? So this is a script. The writing of it is provocative that way. And you can play with your brain with great writing. You can kind of replace little things that make big changes that you don't have to think about. It's true. And what you do with him in the film and what Paul is doing on a whole, on one level, in terms of what it's exploring, in terms of the more nefarious characters in the film, it seems heightened.

1:00:44And there's a sort of absurdity to it. and it's played for, you know, entertainment to some extent. But really, it's not actually that heightened. The more nefarious characters in our world have, even in the time since we've shot it, you know, subtracted some of the kind of high-concept farce that might have been attached to it because now we're following the lead of the real world. Yeah, it's true. And, you know, it's interesting seeing how the audience reacts to the film because some of the scenes involving your character and some other characters he comes into contact with are funny, but also chilling at the same time because, you know, you have this awareness that it's not untrue.

1:01:31And there are people who behave like this and think like that. I'm assuming that's one of the things that excited you about doing it. Yeah, I remember the, I don't know what page I was on, short of 20 when I said, wow, he's going there. Because not many directors do this, certainly not in the way that he does it. Yeah, no, this thing's been a gift for, I think, all the actors on this field this way, for all of us, because to have something, this experience reminds me more of my best experiences in the theatre. than in the movies. In what way? Well, the absolute interdependence of an ensemble cast, the excellence wall-to-wall of this cast.

1:02:19I remember showing up on set, well, from my first scene, the movie was with the Tiana Taylor, and it was so immediately clear, because they'd been shooting and I hadn't yet. What the bar of this playing field was, that these people had what Moreland Brando used to call suiting up, like having to really suit up for this one. Everybody was extremely focused, and it was kind of game on and great. So, and then also, you know, the big difference in film from theater, I think, is that the director in theater is typically weaning you off dependence on the director. Where in film, at its best, I think it's constantly subtly directed, that there's a guidance system, that after a take in the process, you can look at your director and with a look he can tell you more or less left, right, you know, red, yellow, whatever it is to make an adjustment.

1:03:25The problem is there are very few directors who can offer that productively. And so it becomes all a hybrid where you're taking off of this colleague as an actor. That might be your go-to first look to check in. How did that seem to work? Is there anything more I can do for you in the scene? And in this one, we all knew one clear source we're going to look to. Because the trust in Paul that we as actors feel is complete. and he's a great director. He's a great writer-director. Have you felt this with, what, maybe just another handful of directors? A handful of directors, but in very few cases, would they also be the writer in full?

1:04:09Oliver Stone, maybe? Well, Oliver, so Oliver is a very complete director. You're not going to win any battles or wars by beating him in a battle. We battled a fair amount. he was still gonna figure out how to do it his way and and I like him a lot he's you know been extremely wrong on things like Russia he's an addicted iconoclast but I like his boldness and I like him and I think he's done some great things film and I'm still a fan but but that's not This and it's I don't I don't know that that's I don't know how much Oliver trusts actors and vice versa. This is the best of what comes with I think a very healthily confident clear minded artist.

1:05:12It's interesting that you were talking about parallels of theatre. I was talking to Paul a few hours ago and I was asking him about the supermarket scene, going in there with a couple of cameras and just going for it. And I was saying how interesting it is for a film with a scale like this, with a budget like this, with actors of this level, still being able to go into a place like that and do that and just roll the punches. He didn't seem to think it was a big deal. He's like, why bother if you can't still do that? But there are many films on this level where that wouldn't happen, or the directors maybe wouldn't do that.

1:05:47Well, he brings such a kind of calm to things, because also what you're leaving out is that to do that with Leonardo DiCaprio in the scene, and shoppers coming in to go to the market in their local community, I think it's sort of it's sort of like look if you and I go to lunch and there's a painting on the wall at the restaurant that's interesting and we walk out you say guy you know I'd really like that painting there's some people sitting on the table now but if we go in there like we were hired by the restaurant I'm sure the manager wouldn't know that the owner didn't call us let's just go in there and say, we're supposed to pick this up, take it off the wall and go.

1:06:33I think Paul knows how to do that. Yeah. A heist. Well, it must be exciting for you to be in that sort of situation on a film like this where it does feel alive and there is an edge of, you know, edginess and unpredictability to it. You've got real people around you. Because I imagine a lot of big productions, you don't get the opportunities to feel that so much. No, this isn't unique. This is why I say it's like a gift, you know. It was a great experience. And I think that it's not just the actors who had that. It was true top to bottom of the crew. But when I watched the performance from you, it looks like you're having the time of your life just getting to play this character.

1:07:15Obviously, he is reprehensible. I think it's fair to say. Yeah, I'm not going to affirm that as obvious. Okay. Okay. Well, I wouldn't want to meet the guy. but it's really entertaining performance because of what you do with it and what you do physically with it and you know there's a lot of value and just watching that guy did you I don't know if it's the right word to use but did you enjoy playing him because it looks like fun I had a great time making this movie. And I think mostly because of the, you know, we take, of course, at the highest levels, we are highly rewarded, let's say, well paid.

1:08:10but that doesn't mean there's not an enormous amount of commitment to focusing on one thing for a period of months and it's its own sacrifice for I'm not but just saying it and after many years of doing film when you're going back to a hotel they've booked you at night on some location and you're looking in the ceiling, it's really easy to say, what the hell am I doing here with my life? I'm not getting any of this time back. And when you're surrounded by highly competent people, or more than that, artists, and an entire crew of such commitment, which has all been orchestrated by the guy you're looking at after the take, handpicked a family to make this thing to have that kind of trust that this is worth it you're never looking at the ceiling thinking that you're thinking i can't wait to get back tomorrow which should which is not an experience you would have had every time i'm sure no you know you look at guys who are special operators they come back and somebody doesn't know how to use the cash register they've just been working with guys who are who excel at the highest level of everything they do and it's frustrating.

1:09:30And so when you get kind of invited into something like this, just, you know, there is a level of enjoyment. Yeah, well, it comes through. All right, fantastic. Thank you very much. Thank you. All right, that was Sean Penn talking to Alex Godfrey. And it is now time for our reviews section. So where should we start? Shall we start with, I'm really trying to say it right. I swear I am Steve Steve no Steve the sensible mature drama Steve Steve Steve Steve oh no Beth tell us more okay no yes this you said it beautifully in the introduction and with the interview so yes this is based on Max Porter's short story I believe which was told from the perspective of shy this this boy who was part of a specialist school in the 90s and for the film they've spun it so it's about the head teacher played by Cillian Murphy um who yeah we just join him in in a chaotic spell so a couple of days at this place but then you quickly learn that this is actually just life at this um this particular school it's all young men who have all manner of difficulties they've had troubled upbringings they have um certain disorders a lot of violence a lot of you know unnavigated feelings which you know in the 90s as well we did not have the dialogue that we have now to kind of assign meaning to things quite as they did then but it's very much about the staff and students of this school and the kind of thrust of the story comes because this tv crew comes to film them over the course of a day and there's also an mp that comes and visits them in what's a very sort of showy act for the cameras as well.

1:11:25So Killian Murphy is Steve. Oh, I did it. I didn't see that. You did it. Great. There's a bit of past there that we find out later into the film, but he is harbouring a lot of difficult feelings. Also addicted to drugs. I can't remember if it's opioids on... I believe it's OxyContin, isn't it? Something similar to that. Yeah, something in that field, I would say. So is, yes, very reliant on pills and very harried. But my God, does he have a beautiful way with these young men, which is really just very, very special to watch. So, yeah, this is produced by Cillian Murphy as well, as you mentioned.

1:12:04And he really is the beating heart of this. He had a very hard time making this film. We did a character deep dive with him in a past issue of the magazine. And it really did put him through the ringer mentally. because of the sheer weight of responsibility that this man goes through. You know, they've got all these external pressures, financial issues, a lot of red tape. People really do just write off these boys at face value. And, you know, they are troubled. They are violent. You see fights and chairs being thrown and all sorts of abuse happening between them and occasionally towards the staff as well.

1:12:48But then the writing, and I think this is because Max Porter did adapt from his own book, there's a lot of nuance and joy and heart also shown when depicting these characters as well. And it's all carried by the most wonderful performances by these young actors. It is a real feat in casting. Most of them are known. I couldn't really pick sort of stronger performers over each. they all bring their own kind of special source to this ensemble. I would say the guy who plays Shy, Jayla Kerger, thank you, has a little bit more to do in terms of story and is a bit more still waters run deep with him.

1:13:30We join him as he's got some terrible news in terms of his family and we see the aftermath of that and how he just fails to cope with what he's been told. And the sophistication of that performance from that young performance is just brilliant. So there's a lot of great, great acting there, all shepherded by Cillian Murphy, who was just, I mean, he's come from these big, prestigious, you know, major studio films, but to see him channeling something more pained and sorrowful, but, you know, dutiful as well, like, it's just wonderful, just really, really wonderful to see. It's beautifully written, very robust character study of everyone involved in.

1:14:14I think it's excellent I think it's essential British storytelling British filmmaking because Max Porter obviously he's adapted this from his novella but the novella which I think you mentioned is called Shy and it's very much from the I want to say the boys point of view and this is very much a Steve centric thing with him juggling everything from like the sale of the school to the boys and whatnot it's interesting so we gave this four stars yeah spoiler for the end of the review sorry I was somewhere between the three and the four camp oh really yeah I thought it was a great performance, but I just, and I think the way he interacts with the boys, as you said, is wonderful.

1:14:50And there's a bit where he talks about the kind of the personalities and the backgrounds and the inner life of each of these boys at one point. And I thought that was a really great scene because it makes you look at these boys in a way that I think people don't and wouldn't do because it's very easy to sort of write them off as just troublemakers, violent, you know, nightmare teens. And how he sees them, what he sees in them, I thought was just lovely. The sort of humanity of that I thought was great. Jay Lai Kurgo, who's really good in Joe Barton's The Bastard Son, The Devil Himself, which shockingly got cancelled but is available on Netflix.

1:15:24He's really, really good in this. That said, I think his arc for me was the bit that didn't quite ring as true. Like it felt a little bit screenplay-y, if that makes sense. Really? Yeah, I felt... Oh, I disagree. Whereas I felt I preferred the slightly more kind of low stakes but real organic, you know, troubled teen stuff really worked for me. That, it felt a little bit like, okay, we need a central bit that needs to have a little bit more drama in it. And that didn't quite ring true for me. Also, I think the extent to which Steve is dealing with his own shit, I didn't think that was, on the one hand, explored deeply enough for me.

1:16:04And also, I felt like his addiction to a variety of drugs and alcohol, it just felt a little bit like, all right, we're laying this stuff on a little bit thick. I wonder whether a little bit more subtle he would have gone a long way there but like I say I loved it the kind of the faux documentarian style really kind of embeds you in it and the fact that he's arguing with the camera crews at time I think is a nice touch and it definitely has an authenticity to it and it is a great performance so yeah I thought it was great but the one thing I would say with this before we recommend it to people is there is a genre of filmmaking that I would put boiling point and uncut gems in which is the anxiety attack as celluloid genre and this very much falls into that category not all the way through but for I would say most of the run time you are just like oh my fucking god like it's so stressful and I did a double bill of this and the lost bus back to back and let me tell you I don't recommend it so that's why your blood pressure is so high so be aware if you have any kind of heart condition you might want to pace that shit out and maybe put a big bold beautiful journey in between the two that does make sense throwing that out there I also loved it I would put it I didn't find it as stressful as Uncut Gems and Boiling Point.

1:17:10I will say it's on the low, it is on that spectrum, but it's lower down than those two. Yeah, sure. And I do think there is an argument that yes, so many awful things happening in one day is maybe piling on a little bit more than it needs to be. But these are minor nitpicks because I thought it was just such a fascinating film. And as the daughter of a teacher and a social worker, I feel very much like this is the kind of stuff that we need to talk about more, that these are not bad people. These are just people who need to, you know, figure out how to channel anger and figure out how to cope with a world that has not necessarily given them everything, for example, people like us have been given in this world.

1:17:48So I just feel like it's a really compassionate film in that sense. And the compassion really comes through. And I think a lot of the sort of small P politics of it are about that cry for empathy that is lacking a lot at the moment in the world. So I feel like that really, really rings true. And that really came through for me. And that does come through in the shy character in Jayla Kirgo's performance as well, who is fantastic in this. But yes, all the boys were. And if you listened to the interview and didn't skip it, you will have heard Tim Milan, who does a very good job on this, talk a little bit about how they managed that and how they sort of created the relationships between everyone so that whatever's happening in the background makes sense for those people and makes sense for those characters at all times.

1:18:33And we should say for Tim as well, I mean, this is the second film they've made together, the second feature film they've made together after Small Things Like These. And that was such an internal, quiet, restrained, subdued film. And this is kind of the opposite of that. God bless Steve. I think he would love to sit in the quiet for like 30 seconds and try and figure stuff out. In this case, no one gives him that moment. Everybody is shouting at him at all times. there is some kind of fire that needs to be put out and it's such a different energy. It's really, really fascinating. So I'm excited to see if they do another one next.

1:19:09I would really like to see, maybe they can just balance the levels of stress next time. I don't know. But yes, this was four stars then for Steve, which is a big recommendation from us. Let's do exactly as James suggested and sandwich a big, bold, beautiful journey in the middle here. Tell us about the new Cogonada. This is from Cogonada who brought us Columbus and after Yang. but this is a very different beast and I think part of the reason for that is he didn't write this one. So this comes from Seth Reese. He's penned this. It was on the blacklist, I think, for a few years before it got made and it is a whimsical kind of magical surrealist fable in the kind of same breath as, I mean, to be honest, partly The Life of Chuck, partly Big Fish.

1:19:52I mean, I think they'd like it to be Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind but it's in that kind of milieu, if you will. Like it's slightly fantastical. It's a little bit twee. But anyway, I'll tell you the story of it because, you know, that's a useful piece of information. So Margot Robbie plays Sarah and Colin Farrell plays David and they meet at a wedding of a mutual friend. And God, how to even get this into words? So they both hire cars from a slightly weird and surreal car rental agency run by Phoebe Waller-Bridge with an inexplicable German accent and Kevin Kline as a mechanic. And the sat-nav, which looks like Hal from 2001 is sentient and asks them if they want to go on a big, bold, beautiful journey and essentially spends the next hour and a half shipping them together.

1:20:38And what this sat-nav does is, on the way back from said wedding, after a product placement ad for Burger King, takes them to a series of stops where there are mystical doorways floating in the middle of the field or wherever it is that they're completely taking their stride and don't bat an eyelid ad, and they go through the doors and it enables them to essentially re-experience and relive pivotal emotional milestones from their past and they share thoughts about it because they both experience each other's past in this and bit by bit they peel back the layers of who they are and essentially spoil it, fall in love.

1:21:10So that's broadly speaking. So it is, you know, it's a romance story. It has a lot of heart to it. And this is right up my alley. Like I love a whimsical love story. You know, I'm really into this kind of stuff. But I have a few quibbles and I think Kaganada, like, what he's done with this it's like you take something magical like this, you take something whimsical like this, and I feel like it needs the visual invention of an eternal sunshine or a big fish. And this is almost underplayed visually. It's almost dogma at times. Like it's really minimalist. Not always. Like there's a theatrical scene which actually works very well.

1:21:43But there's a bit here where I'm like, if you're going to have larger than life emotions and reality, I think you need the aesthetic to go with it. And I think it kind of, the restraint here, I don't think served the film particularly well. I do think that like Margot Robbie and Colin Farrell are both very good in this I think she in particular you know does loads with a part that I'll be honest has more than a hint of the Manic Pixie Dream Girl about it and I didn't need to wait until the end credits to know this was written by a man let's put it that way I think she she has male fantasy written all over her and I think while it would be unfair to say these characters have no inner life and also untrue because this whole film was about unpacking their inner life and I think you know it peels back layers of trauma to explain why he is commitment phobic, why she is quite spiky and impenetrable and sort of elusive and slightly aggressive at times, but then withdrawn at others.

1:22:35And you see the traumas that form that. It all feels a little bit basic. Yeah, I found that their psychology... I was like, I see what you're doing, you're getting under the skin of these characters, but there's not much under that skin. And I felt they were a little bit too thinly drawn, which is a real shame because if the whole film is about delving into their psyches, you need something to be there. And ultimately, I think the other part of this is that it's these two characters getting to know each other and really see each other and to be the person that has seen the other person for the first time.

1:23:08And the dialogue is quite leaden at times and very on the nose. And, you know, I think the best films like this have incredibly organic, sparky dialogue that feels like, I mean, not always how real human beings talk, but at least how you want real human beings to talk. And this and the dialogue, to me, was just quite functional at times. I think it's not even that. I think he does, and he did this in After Yang as well, there's almost a Yorgos Lanthimios style, real people have never spoken like this, but this is what I want you to do, thing going on. Like, certainly in some of those early scenes at the wedding, the way Colin Farrell in particular talks, and to a lesser degree, but still present degree, the way Margot Robbie talks, that is like after young and that is also like you know the lobster or something like that like it has that real sort of almost conscious artificiality to it and i think that that is a problem like for the same reason i think it takes you out of reality even before you've been taken out of reality by any of the other stuff going on like when he first goes into the very very weird car rental place he's already not reacting like a real human being would yes so Well, you're already slightly sideways from reality and that's before anything gets going.

1:24:23And that's frustrating because I think it does mean that it's a harder sell. It's a harder buy then to kind of buy into this, essentially, you know, film storytelling as therapy advert. Because that is basically what they're doing here. They're like, well, you'll only ever have a healthy relationship once you've gone to therapy. So let's just send these two to therapy and then hope that that works out for them. and yeah and I'm like you I love this kind of shit I'm the person who loved the adjustment bureau nobody loves the adjustment bureau I will go on record right here and I think I've said it on this podcast the adjustment bureau is the most romantic movie ever made and I will die on this fucking hill it's really good I like it but this is no adjustment bureau sir like it wants to be it's aggressively whimsical yes I would slightly disagree on the on the on the style of it I do think it's got some style like they're always colour coded the way they're dressed that kind of thing the palette is lovely the palette is lovely but it is still quite restrained and there is that there's that weird and they use a museum motif but it does mean sometimes you've got these characters talking about larger than life things while wearing very neutral palettes in a completely black room like without any kind of yeah that was odd yeah yeah it was it's very odd at times but I don't think always successfully so I wanted to be to buy into this 100 % and I actually bought into it maybe 47 % Well, I'm with you.

1:25:46And I think it had the potential to be exactly what I wanted it to be. But I think it just needed a script that fired on all cylinders. I think it just needed punching up a little bit, which was a real shame. And maybe even the script could work if you leaned into the reality at the beginning and then took it further from reality later on. But as it is, it's all very much of a piece. It doesn't swing for the fences, I think, is part of it. Like, I think it just needed to have a little bit... It needed to be a bit bolder, a little bigger, and a little bit more beautiful and then I'd have been happy with it.

1:26:15I actually, despite having said all that, had a pretty good time watching this. I enjoyed it. And yet when I came out and saw that we'd given it two stars, I was not in any way shocked and fully predicted that is what it would get. For me, it's a three because I'm predisposed towards it, but it's also a two. I just feel like we need Colin Farrell to be making more rom-coms, not fewer. This feels like, therefore, like a wasted opportunity. So two stars for me as well for a big, bold, beautiful journey. But all is not lost, but the bus is lost. Because we have one more review. Tell us about the lost bus, James.

1:26:49Yes, this is Paul Greengrass's latest movie. And this is co-written between him and Brad Inglesby, who wrote Mare of Easttown. And of course, Task, which is currently shown on HBO with Mark Ruffalo, which is very, very good. And you should watch it if you're not already. It's really good. It's really good. Planet Forever. Exactly. No, no. That's it. There are two of us on there. I'm out loud it. Darren, cut all of them out. Just everything they've said so far. This is kind of based on the 2021 non-fiction book Paradise Colon One Town Struggled to Survive an American Wildfire, which is a very on-the-nose title.

1:27:21You can see why they changed it. That said, I don't think The Lost Bus is a great title for a film, but it is a well-told and well-rendered kind of survival-slash-disaster movie. So this is about the 2018 campfire in Butt County in Northern California, which was apparently the deadliest, most destructive wildfire in California history, which is saying a lot, especially recently. Well, at that time, anyway, it was. Yeah, I don't know if it still is. but it's still listed as that. So let's assume it still has that title. I think it's still deadliest, but maybe not the most destructive. Right. And there is, you know, and there's a line in here which very, very clearly points to the climate change origins of this stuff.

1:27:53I'm not sure it's the most subtly delivered line, but I think it lands. But anyway, this is Matthew McConaughey stars in this and he is Kevin McKay and he is a bus driver and he's returned to this area, this kind of area of called Paradise, where he grew up and he's since moved away and he's come back with his son. His father's recently died. He's looking after his mother. He is sort of a newly minted school bus driver. He's not having the best time. His relationship with his son is rather strained. His relationship with his ex-wife is rather strained. He is, I think it's fairly safe to say, a bit of a fuck-up and he hasn't really got a handle on his own life.

1:28:26He's struggling, frankly, to pick up and drop off kids on time, which is the whole of his job. But when this fire starts, which is due to a kind of poorly maintained power line which ignites this wildfire, which kind of consumes the entire county and gradually becomes more and more serious. Nick gets to the point where they're firefighting and then they're evacuating and then there's, oh, we are just incredibly screwed at this point. But he, because he's in the wrong place at the wrong time, he's running late on his bus run, he is asked to take a bunch of kids. There's about 23 kids and he picks them up from one school and he's asked to evacuate them to another school where their parents will pick them up.

1:28:58Obviously, the fire has other plans and it all goes downhill from there. So you have him and then you have America Ferreira who plays Mary Ludwig and she's a school teacher looking after the kids. It's basically those two and a bus full of kids and a lot of flames. And that's this film. Now, Paul Greengrass is exceptionally good at that high-stress, in-your-face, shaky camera filmmaking that makes you feel like you are in the midst of it and having a nervous breakdown. And this film is about two hours and ten minutes of crying children and smoke and stress. It's really, really effective in the way the best disaster movies are where you are never able to relax.

1:29:34You are always tense and it is so gripping and you are so, you become incredibly invested in what, he's like, he's pouring over this map. Well, if you go this way, when all this bus isn't really designed to get around, oh, we're going to have to take this road. No, no, take the other road. Take the other road. Like you get really, really into it. And, you know, obviously we don't want to spoil what happens, but suffice it to say, the fire makes everything a lot more difficult. And the sheer kind of primal, atavistic terror of what that must be like when the whole world around you is burning, there's smoke everywhere, like day becomes night and there is nowhere safe to go.

1:30:06it's incredibly stressful and I think Greengrass does an incredible job of doing it so I think it's really well executed I think we gave this three which I thought was harsh well here's why and I think now that I've said it Helen O 'Hara might have given it three so this should be fun I gave it three for two reasons principally two reasons first of all I don't know that we needed to spend that long on all of McConaughey's character's life before the fire. I understand we need a bit of context, but I felt like I was being beaten over the head with this guy is a fuck up and he's bad at his job. I mean, literally, it's 45 minutes of the film just telling us that this guy is a fuck up and he's bad at his job.

1:30:51He's anti-Steve. He's the anti-Steve, he is. And look at us both saying Steve like normal things. Steve! But he really is. And I think I was just like, I get it. Okay, move on. And I understand that you don't necessarily want to soft soap it and brush over that because that would be the kind of Hollywood way of doing it. And, you know, Paul Greengrass is much more invested in reality and nuance than that. I do get what he's, I think, going for there and what he and Brad Inglesby are going for there. But I also just felt beaten over the head with it. And like, this is all a distraction. Get on with it.

1:31:26So that was a problem. And then I also thought that the, you know, we cut back to the fire chiefs and the effort to contain the fire, or at least figure out a way to evacuate the town and get people to safety and everything else. We keep cutting back there, and I just wanted more from that than I got. I felt like that was very exposition central. It's quite palate-cleansing. We've got tension, oh, we're going to break away here, and then a couple of minutes, and then we'll break back. But it's always like palate-cleansing in the sense that then they say, but I hope nobody goes left off this road.

1:31:59Cut back to Matthew McConaughey going, yeah, we're going to go left down this road. It's that kind of thing, you know. And look, again, you've got a disastrous story to tell. You have to do a certain amount of exposition. You have to get that in somehow. We have to know that as an audience, even if they don't know it on the bus. But I feel like every time they did, it just felt like we lost momentum and we just were kind of bogged down in not very good dialogue, if I'm honest. I'm sorry. Yeah, I will definitely give you that. I thought it was really on the nose. And I think there is a way, and we've seen it in other Paul Greengrass films apart from anything else, there is a way to make those characters pop and sing and be just as interesting and fascinating as the people on the bus.

1:32:39And I didn't think this film did that. I think this film just had them be cardboard cutouts, you know, hero types doing their best. And I felt like I wanted to see more of the panic and the stress and the tension of the moment from them, even in just little tiny moments. I'm not saying I needed anyone who didn't have a nervous breakdown to have a nervous breakdown. I just needed to see them like take a breath and then go, right, let's do this. You know, and I just didn't feel like I was getting character work from them. I felt like I was only getting exposition. Other than the 45 minutes of exposition.

1:33:10Well, the 45 minutes, yeah, exactly. So I just felt the character work could have been more evenly spread across the cast is maybe what I'm saying. I quite liked the character work at the front. I think partly because you understand that he's had this big fight with his son. He's struggling with it. And he has to make this difficult decision when he picks up the kids, which is, do I go home, because his son is at home, to check on his own son, who's like a teenager who's like 15, although he's not quite sure how old his son is, or do I go and pick up these kids? And he makes the decision to pick up these kids.

1:33:37But all the way through, the drama is not just, how do I keep these kids alive? He is so terrified, because he has no idea what's happening to his actual son. And he just wants to get back to his son. So he's like, I need to get these kids somewhere so I can literally go home. And that really added to the stress for me. And America Ferrera has a similar situation. Similar situation, yeah. You don't really understand a lot about that because her characterization is pared back. But I thought it added an extra layer of anxiety to an already quite anxious film. Yeah, but maybe it was deliberate, but it threw me off because they spent so much time establishing that he wants to get home to his son.

1:34:10I was like, is he going to drive this bus up to his house? I thought he would. I thought that's how it feels because why else am I hearing this much this early on about the son non-stop? We get the blow-by-blow of exactly what his son's fever is looking like at any given moment. Yeah, anyway, so look, I don't think it's bad and I think all the fire scenes, as you said, are incredibly tense and incredibly gripping and scary and worrying. And I think, to be honest, I think the way that they talk about the wider implications of this, I think that's taken from reality. I think that's why it happens the way that it does, I suspect.

1:34:46but yeah I just felt like it was a very uneven film for me so that's why I went three stars which is a recommendation just not quite harsh Helen O 'Hara that's what we call her Helen O 'Harsha wow wow anyway yes I must admit I did prefer this one to Steve I would be for Steve over this any day of the week I've got to say but anyway that's a pretty much running the gamut this week for the films of the week that's exciting and of course many of the films we talked about last week are still in cinemas if you haven't had a chance to go yet to things like The Long Walk. They're still there. Go see them to go check them out because that is it for this week's Empire podcast.

1:35:23Join us next week for more film-related fun when we will be joined by, first of all, Chris Hewitt, who will be back, Emma Thompson, who will be joining us from the dead of winter. Also, we fight one more battle after one more battle after another because Paul Thomas Anderson is also going to be joining us next week. Excellent. Until then. I don't approve of public displays of PTA. Wow. Yeah. I do. Sorry. I think they're great. I think we should have more of them, if anything. Until then, until that auspicious occasion, it's goodbye from Beth. Goodbye. Goodbye from James. Goodbye on Pilot TV on Monday.

1:35:58We're having essentially a Slow Horses special. The reason I say that is because not only do we interview Christopher Chung, a.k.a. Roddy Ho, for the fifth series of Slow Horses on Apple TV +, but Ruth Bradley crashed the studio just as we were recording an hour ago, which is why we were late starting this podcast, to talk about Emma Flight, her character in it as well. and it's great and Slow Horses is wonderful and yes Nick gave it three stars but he doesn't know what he's talking about. Well he seemed pretty sure. Sure that he's wrong. Goodbye then James. Goodbye Helen. And it's a toodaloo from me.

1:36:28I'm off to watch Clyde with a chance of meatballs to try and get this problem out of my head. Steve! Steve!