Jessie Buckley & Paul Mescal On Hamnet; James Vanderbilt on Nuremberg — An Empire Podcast Interview Special

0:14Hello Pod, I'm Chris Hewitt and welcome to an Empire Podcast interview special with a difference. It's Friday, January 9th, folks, and usually Friday is New Empire Podcast Day. Hooray! But this particular Friday is the day when we record the New Empire Podcast live at King's Place London to mark 700 episodes of the show. Blimey. and with that being recorded tonight that means it won't be up until Saturday at the earliest and so to tide you over until then here are two interviews we did earlier today, Jan 9th, as well as marking our 14th anniversary as an award winning podcast sees the release of Chloe Zhao's Hamnet a stunning drama that is set to be one of the Oscar frontrunners this year, adapted from the book by Maggie O 'Farrell it tells the tale of the marriage between William Shakespeare, yes, that William Shakespeare, played by Paul Meskell, and his wife, Agnes, played by Jesse Buckley.

1:16And what happens to them emotionally, spiritually, artistically, when they are met with unimaginable tragedy? Buckley and Meskell, two of Ireland's finest exports, are extraordinary in this movie. And so we jumped at the chance to pair them with another of Ireland's finest exports, our very own, Helen O 'Hara, just before Christmas. Paul and Jessie were on Zoom for this. They were in Ireland, I believe, actually. And this is a multifaceted chat in which our intrepid trio dig into art, emotion, Shakespeare, and of course, Santa Claus. Huh. All will become clear. Enjoy. Jessie Buckley and Paul Meskell, welcome to the Empire podcast.

2:03How are you doing? We're doing good. as I came online you were talking about method Santa Clauses can you explain further we did an interview we're very excited we just lost the run of ourselves and we said that maybe the great Christmas movie that we would make would make like a kitchen sink drama between Santa Claus and Mrs. Claus it's a hybrid of who's afraid of Virginia Woolf Yeah. But as Santa Claus and Mrs. Santa Claus. And she's an alcoholic and he's a narcissist. Yeah. And he's on his last trip and he promised it to be the last one. But he's decided to go hardcore. But he'll never stop.

2:48Be method Santa this year. Yeah. And so he's put on loads of weight. Yeah. Even more weight. He's got even bigger. Even bigger. Right. She's secretly drinking and smoking. Having an affair with the head elf. Yeah. No. Hot, small elf. A hot, small elf. and she actually doesn't like children oh my god this sounds incredible so you've basically taken Raymond Briggs Father Christmas and thought you know what we can go grittier than that and it's right on the edge between serious drama and then total comedy I'm in I do a Christmas movies podcast as well this can feature next year we'll lock that in right now for the publicity round but apparently you can't We've just also found out this is no legs because Coca-Cola owns Santa Claus and you're not able to tarnish the look.

3:41I don't think that's true. There goes that dream. But we wouldn't tarnish them. We're making them human. We would be making them like this is, of course, Santa Claus and Mrs. Claus must go through the ringer. Imagine the stress in that house two weeks before Christmas. They must be up the walls and he's like gone bananas. He's gone mad with power. mad with it. Yeah. And she's left all on her own while every other family in the whole world gets Santa Claus. And she doesn't get anything. Does she experience time the same way he does? So it's like a subjective infinity while he's delivering all these toys in one night.

4:21That's even worse. That's what I'm wondering. It's like being in outer space, isn't it? It's like time is never ending. And then when he comes home, he always promises that he's going to be there but he's so exhausted from spending so much energy that he actually takes a week away to like decompress and then comes back and realises that Mrs. Claus is over. She's left a note saying I've gone with Bernard the elf. Bernard the elf is in. The Santa Claus. Santa Claus. David Krumholtz, would he play himself? Yeah, he could play himself. Who would you want to play the head elf? I did say Will Ferrell, but he just because he is like synonymous with Christmas films.

5:04Do you know who would be great? Josh. Josh would be a great head up. It's not small, though. But I think we would just, I don't think. You can shrink him. Oh, he'd be so cute. Such a cute chunk. Yeah. I'd watch this. I think this is genuinely going to be the next Christmas classic. I think you're onto something. um speaking of demystifying like well-known figures brings us to hamlet and hamlet very good very jamespeare see what i did there yeah um first of all congratulations on this film even though you made me cry more than any other film this year tell me about tell me about this tell me about working with each other on this it was the most gorgeous experience i think we met each other at the perfect because we obviously knew each other a little bit beforehand but we went into it with or speaking for myself with this immense respect for Jessie's work and this real curiosity to see how she works but then on top of that I think we just built this incredibly robust relationship and collaboration that just feels like it supersedes the film for me anyway Yeah, it was like a kind of once in a lifetime thing.

6:26Like sometimes just all the parts like Paul, Chloe, the kids, Lucas, the story, Max Richter, Maggie O 'Farrell, the collision of all these people coming together. And I think everybody who came into this needed to tell this story at this moment in their life. And those things just don't happen, you know. And with Paul, I feel like I've met somebody that I will meet many times in my life and have very important, significant experiences as an actor with and as a friend. And I'm really, really proud of the work we did in this. I'm so grateful for the relationships and friendships I've found in it.

7:12And it's reminded me of what storytelling can be and what cinema can be. you know that it doesn't that it's um it can really be something that has such an effect yeah on i feel like everyone who's seen it um it's been something that's it's weirdly a sort of theme of this year is has been there have been several really great films that talk about the importance of art to say things that words can't and it feels like it's something that maybe we we all need to be reminded of right now and sort of talking about with you know all the chat by AI and all this nonsense it feels like it's it's a good time to be reminded that there is there is a point to all of this it's not just pretty stories well at times it's hard to find the words to describe the landscape that we find ourselves in you know and like um there's not sometimes there's not even the language for it yet and I think art is always a place for us to in an abstract way just like feel the things that we need to feel and share and like recognize outside of ourselves because it's too much to hold on our own there that's the whole vessel of storytelling in whatever form whether that's in painting books cinema you know um and I definitely feel like that's true for this moment so tell me about Chloe as well um She sounds like she brings a lot of, and I say this in a very complimentary fashion, witchy energy to a set.

8:46Very guided by instinct. A bit like maybe Agnes herself. Yeah, like I think she just carries. She doesn't work like from a heady place at all. It's like intuition, instinct, she works physically. We did a lot of work on that before we started. she's like a deeply connected and curious person you know in between making these incredible films that she's made she's always going to try and discover like she's doing like a death workshop or how to are studying dreams or you know like she's constantly excavating the her soul to try and connect a little bit further and it's a very brave thing to do you know it's really easy to live in your head and project an idea of what you think you can control in your life but I think Chloe is constantly she calls a spiral and she works in a very kind of feminine place in that way to kind of spiral herself into a place of unknowability so that she can discover something within herself.

9:54And yet she said she was kind of almost scared of a particularly Agnes before doing this like she turned down the film initially I think Paul you essentially talked her back into it what made her hesitate and maybe it's just because she didn't know what it was at that point yeah i think chloe has said this before but it's like it's a film that like act like it is really curious about the concept of motherhood it's also like there's this there's it's also about letting go the rendering you know and i think agnes is very much somebody who goes through a journey of learning to constantly let go. And so does Will.

10:39This is about letting go so that you can see something again.

10:47Reincarnation of a feeling. Yeah. As an artist, like Chloe's artistry, it's a big question. It's a scary question. for and I think had Chloe not been afraid of it or myself or yourself it's like then I think you would have we would have been the wrong people to do it if there wasn't a latent fear that goes with that because it's because it's also there's this thing of like Shakespeare is very precious to a lot of people and I think the film does benefit from from people who aren't um English or British playing those parts in it like obviously I feel biased to that because we got to do it but But I do think that it does remove a kind of like preciousness.

11:27Like, I don't think we're precious or Chloe is precious. It's it's it's actually. Or Maggie at all. And this version of this film benefits from that. It's not to say to say that there's other versions of this film that could be brilliant in other people's hands. But I think that this was the film that the three of us and everybody else made together. Yeah. Paul in particular are you beginning a process of sort of anti-colonisation by taking these British heroes like Shakespeare and Paul McCartney and making them Irish is that what you're doing? I'm doing Paul McCartney with an Irish accent that's the big taste no there's none of that no he's doing those roles because he's a giant of a human you know it's no coincidence that he goes from gladiator to Shakespeare to Paul McCartney.

12:23Not many people can fill those spaces and they're, I mean Shakespeare and Paul McCartney are absolute humanists and Santa Claus next. And Santa Claus next. Not your one, your one's going to be a narcissist. Mine's going to be a narcissist, yeah. We're going to... We're starting now. I know there were definitely scenes in this film that were, I'm sure, very difficult to film were there scenes that that you know were were joyful and that you particularly loved i mean even the difficult ones were like they weren't joyful they were intent but there was a lot of it was a privilege to get to go to those places but you know those first scenes where they meet and fall in love and they just the energy yeah between them was so epic and electrical and we were just tearing around fields and through forests.

13:22And that first scene when they meet in the barn for the first time, like there was just this wild electricity. And sometimes Chloe would do a kind of silent take where we would blast music, take away all the dialogue, but everything that was being said was being said just with our bodies. And like some of those scenes were just so alive and joyous. I remember Mark, our first AD, calling action from a distance. And we were running around in a field that was like 100 feet away. And we were coming into the scene where they sleep together for the first time. And I just remember totally forgetting that we were on a film set.

14:03And it was just like the only thing I could see was the apex of the house. I couldn't see any crew. I could just see Jesse sprinting ahead of me. and we were like I didn't feel any kind of pressure of like oh they've called action we need to get in front of the camera yeah we were just running around for like a couple of minutes and we entered the scene and there was no sense of like panic from the crew or Chloe and I like want to carry that feeling of freedom and kind of in everything I do now and it was just like as you said it's like I don't think the film's grief or the kind of weight of the film would work unless we as a as me and jesse and chloe are a collective of crew invested equally in the kind of moments of joy and levity and i think i feel equally as proud of like the early moments in the film as i do the later parts yeah yeah i've been reading a lot of obviously interviews with with chloe and with all of you and there's a lot of talk about just that openness and that sense of having to be open to this experience and let yourself feel the feelings and and just bring it all in i guess yeah yeah it what about the i was talking to your costume designer the other day who told me and i don't know if this is right that jesse you weren't told about the kids performing a play in advance that that was that was kind of sprung on you as a surprise no and i love that moment so much and they're all giddy like i knew they're all planning something and Paul I got to go off and rehearse with him he was the giddiest of them all he was like couldn't sit in his seat he was so giddy but trying to trying to wrangle performances like it was the it was the best feeling because you could see the children's like like the the characters of the children like like Hamnet really wanting to be in the play and Susanna not really wanting to be in the play and like trying to rehearse it with them and then just their faces absolutely loved it loved doing that and his little cackle I love your face when you see it I mean I adored I found it the funniest most gorgeous thing in the world it was lovely they were extraordinary Jacoby in particular obviously has some heavy lifting to do but what an incredible actor brilliant what about the kind of the Tudor-ness the Shakespearean-ness of it all Like, you know, it seems like it's, you know, you didn't get the roughs.

16:30I don't know if you missed them or not, but, you know, it was very lived in. It was very lived in period drama, I guess. Was that was that more comfortable, more fun? Yeah, I think I think Chloe had no interest in it kind of feeling stuffy or like removed from a kind of. I mean, there's a part aspect of that, like Justine's character that she plays. Yes. You know, it's actually on a, it's a precipice of kind of paganism being like not being the kind of religion in England anymore and Puritanism starting to come in and capitalism kind of starting to creep in and what that does. I think for us and for Chloe, they're almost like animals, you know, they're so deeply connected to their elemental nature and to nature that the Tudor aspect is about, it's about life, you know, for them.

17:25You know, my costume was my red corset, the dress that I wear at the beginning is made out of the bark of a tree. The cloth is a very, like, organic, like, life. It's alive, this costume. And I think you had a sense, like, we needed to be able to live in them. And it just would have felt like, like, not that it would have been. It just would have felt so wrong to me to feel like tied into this costume feeling. And that's a testament to Malgoge's work is that it feels to me totally period correct, but it wasn't in an attempt to like capture the period. It was about capturing a feeling. And I think the heads of department across everything were so wonderfully disobedient where they wanted to be.

18:14in the best because it's like we can just read a book and like watch a documentary about Tudor times and that's not what this group of creatives that wasn't the task that we were set out or that we set out for ourselves to like accomplish it was one of trying to capture these like planets colliding and like what happens as a result of it and thank god we lost the roughs to be honest. Absolutely. So would you be working with Chloe again? Will she direct the Sanda film or will you get parts in Buffy? I mean, have you got any plans? Both would be fantastic. I'd do anything. Yeah, I would do anything with her in a heartbeat.

18:56Amazing, amazing. Well, listen, I have to let you go, but thank you so much for joining us, Jessie Buckley and Paul Meskell. Thank you. Thanks a lot. See ya. Okay, that was Paul Meskell and Jessie Buckley talking to Helen about Hamnet, which is in cinemas right now, folks. and Helen has also spoken to Chloe Zhao about that movie and we will be running that interview along with a Team Empire discussion in our spoiler special feed in a week or so. So keep them peeled for that. Up next is James Vanderbilt, writer and director of Nuremberg, a star-studded drama about the aftermath of World War II and the Nuremberg trials.

19:30In particular, the trial of one of the highest-ranking Nazi officers, Hermann Göring, played here by Russell Crowe. But Chris, I hear you cry. Didn't that come out in cinemas last November? Why, yes it did. But as a Sky original movie, it now lives on Sky Cinema, as of today, in fact. And I've been holding on to this fascinating chat with Fandabilt for this occasion. Fandabilt is a really interesting guy, and I wish we had more time to dig into his career, because Eclectic doesn't even begin to cover it. As a screenwriter, he made his name with Zodiac, but he's also written both murder mystery movies for Adam Sandler.

20:08Points for that. A couple of amazing Spider-Mans. Screams. Five and six. And much, much more. You just cannot pin this guy down. And this, his second movie as director a few years after his first, Truth, which starred Robert Redford and Cate Blanchett, has some really great standout sequences in which Michael Shannon and Russell Crowe go toe-to-toe in a courtroom. I asked him about those sequences, about showing real footage of the Holocaust during the courtroom scenes, about assembling an all-star cast, about holding on to this film and developing it for over a decade until he could get it made, and much, much more.

20:49Do please enjoy. We are delighted to be joined on The Emperor Podcast by the writer and director of Nuremberg, James Vanderbilt. How are you, sir? I'm doing great. How are you, sir? I'm not too bad. Not too bad at all. I mean, this movie is fascinating to me. So this is a film that you've been developing, if I'm right in thinking, for well over a decade now. Was there a possibility that this might have been, did you ever intend for this to be your directorial debut? You know, it's interesting. I think it was certainly in the running if it had come together. I think I was 13 years ago when I started working on it.

21:25I wanted to direct it. I was nervous about the level of the stakes to the story and for it being my first movie. But I also didn't necessarily want to let anyone else direct it. So it was a little bit of a, you know, if some brilliant director came along who I loved, I would have probably given it to them because I didn't necessarily have as much confidence then. But luckily, it took a long time and I was able to direct my first film, which was a smaller film. and, you know, sort of get my sea legs a little bit and the confidence needed to tackle this one. Most people's sea legs don't come with Robert Redford.

22:06So I love what you call Truth a smaller film. It was a smaller film, but it was helpful for it to be Robert Redford. It was the deep end of the pool I was thrown into. Let me put it to you that way. But it was also, listen, with actors, like it was him and Cate Blanchett, and, I mean, such terrific actors. you know, you sort of can't help but, you know, go, okay, we're really doing this. You know, I can't be intimidated because I've got Bob and Kate on set. And it's the same with this as well. I mean, almost every scene in the first 20, 25 minutes of this movie, as you were setting up your characters and you're just introducing the audience to an amazing new character actor with pretty much every single scene.

22:46So it starts off, you go, oh, okay, Michael Shannon's in this, brilliant. Oh, now Remy Malek's in this. Oh, oh God, here's Leo Woodall. Oh, now John Slattery's in the film. Well, that's surely it. And then Richard E. Grant turns up, for God's sake. So it's a hell of a cast. I mean, as a huge fan of ensemble World War II-centric movies, things like Bridge Too Far and obviously Tora, Tora, Tora, things like that, The Longest Day, Judgment of Nuremberg, did you feel a pressure in a way to deliver with a great ensemble cast? I definitely did, and I really wanted to. And I love that experience when I go see a film of, you know, when you go, oh, it's that guy.

23:27You know, it's just sort of there's something lovely about it. You know, the other thing with ensemble films is you only have so much time with each character. And so I find that having, you know, a familiar face who the audience has some experience with really helps you sort of identify that person. So that when Richard E. Grant walks in as Sir David Maxwell Fyfe, you're not sort of necessarily trying to figure out the character so much as you're going, oh, I know who this character is. It's Richard E. Grant. Okay. Okay. So I think that there's a pleasure in that in an ensemble film. But then also it's a murderer's row of actors.

24:03I mean, Russell described it as walking into a saloon and everyone's a gunfighter. And he's bringing it. He's got his six shooters strapped to his side in this. There are phenomenal scenes between him and Rami. There's a great courtroom showdown between him and Michael Shannon as well. What was it like directing those scenes, those kind of one-on-one scenes between great actors? I mean, it's just such a privilege as a director to do it. The courtroom was fascinating because it was a 22-page cross-examination scene. And so the first AD said, okay, obviously we're going to break this up over three or four days.

24:45And, you know, we'll start here and then we'll stop here at the end of the first day. And I said, Michael and Russell aren't going to want to do that. They're going to want to do the whole thing. And she was like, there's no way. And I said, no, I will. And I went to Russell and Michael and they both said, oh, yeah, we're going to do the whole thing. Like we're not we don't want to stop mid emotional beat and then go back to the hotel and then 12 hours later trying to find that moment again. So I think I nearly gave her a heart attack when I told her that. But we set up four cameras, two on Michael, two on Russell.

25:16And they did all 22 pages and 25-minute takes. And it was incredible just to watch them. Word perfect, not missing a beat. And they're tearing each other apart. So it was just as a director, you kind of want to pinch yourself. At the end of the first take, I had to remember to call cut. because I was just like, I was just watching it and I was like, oh, I'm in charge. Cut. Okay, great, great. So it was amazing. And 300 extras and they all applauded at the end of each take. I mean, it was truly one of the most amazing days I've ever had on a film set. My God, how long did each take roughly? Each one was about 25 minutes.

25:55Okay. And that's, by the way, digital film, you can do that now. You can run 25-minute takes. But they were tireless. And it just, I think we did seven takes because you have to cover, obviously, and they have to cover all the other different people in the courtroom. But it was a master class in acting. The majority of which take did you use? I think we live in take one and then a lot of take three and then a little bit of take seven because at that point we're very wide. And I started pretty medium to tight on them because they both, and Rami's this way too, all three of them are take one actors.

26:41They all come off the blocks really quickly. Some actors have to warm into it and three or four is their sweet spot. But Michael and Russell and Rami, from take one, you're off to the races. So I didn't want to waste that on a wide. I wanted to be right there. And so I saved the very big, big wides to the end when we knew we had it. Speaking of the courtroom sequence, leads me to another incredibly harrowing and moving sequence in the trials where we see footage from various concentration camps. And it's actual footage that you use in the film. What did you show in the courtroom when you were filming?

27:26Because some of the reaction shots from the actors seem so real. Did you actually show footage in the room? Yes, we showed the actual footage that you see in the film. You know, we brought in a projector. We didn't want a green screen or comp it in or fake it, you know. And in reality, the film they showed was almost an hour long, and we only show about five to six minutes of it. But it was all footage that was shown in court that day. And, you know, with our wonderful actors, as I sort of cast it, I said, look, I know you all love doing research, which is great. do me a favor, don't watch the film as part of your research, because I want it to be fresh on the day for you.

28:07And they all agreed to it. And on the day, we brought everybody in. I had four cameras again that day. So I lined each camera up with one of our leads. And I went out 300 extras. And I sort of said, OK, this is for our background actors, this is what we're going to be doing today and it's going to be a tough day, but I think it's very important. Um, and, uh, you know, we had a moment of silence, um, and then we showed the film and, uh, you know, we've great actors in our movies, so I don't want to say no acting was required because they are playing characters, but, but the images you see of them are them seeing that footage for the first time.

28:47Um, and I think those images are as powerful today as they were 80 years ago. And I was always very important to me to show the real film, to not shoot anything for it, to not, you know, we don't have music under it, pushing it. You know, it's just, it's, I think we do it as dryly as possible because I want you, the viewer, to be in the same seats that they in the courtroom were 80 years ago. In terms of that, so Rami and Richard and Michael and, you know, they are all prepared for the footage that they're about to see if you're an extra if you're supporting artist um or even a day player coming in for that to prepare yourself for that psychologically must have been really interesting how did you take care of of extras and supporting artists who might have reacted adversely to that footage they were incredible we we let them know what was going to happen ahead of time they knew they knew before they walked in on the day too it was on the call sheet that this is what we were going to be doing.

29:48We told them if they needed to step out or needed to not participate, it was by their choice. Nobody left. Everybody stayed. And it was also, we shot in Hungary. So it's a lot of people who their parents and their grandparents went through World War II. And then the communists came in. So they have dealt in that country with a lot of oppression and you know all of the stuff we did in the courtroom a lot of michael's opening speech as well sort of about tyranny and and and um you know the evil that men do really resonated there with them apart from our film um just in terms of the history of the country and and they were they were amazing and incredible there's a there's a moment in that sequence where Goering puts on sunglasses, which I believe he did in the actual trial as well.

30:46For you, because that could be interpreted in a number of ways, for you, what's going through his mind at that moment? Is he shutting out the guilt of what he's done, or is he being very blasé and glib about the whole thing, or is there something else going on there? I think he's trying to, and Russell and I talked about this too, because that was definitely a choice. And just to tell it for your viewers and your listeners, there were sunglasses in the courtroom because the lights were so bright in order to be able for the film cameras to film the trial. So it was so hot under those lights that they gave everybody in the courtroom sunglasses if they wanted to wear them.

31:18So it looks a little silly initially because you sort of go, sunglasses in the courtroom. But with that moment with Russell, we talked about that he's trying to shut it out. He's trying to not pay attention to it, possibly conceal any kind of emotional response he's having to the film that he doesn't want anyone else to see. But I think he's going into his hole a little bit, as much as he can. Was Gurin in a way one of the reasons why he wanted to do this, to examine the mentality of a monster, essentially? A very charming and seductive and intelligent monster, but a monster nonetheless? Yeah, absolutely.

31:57I mean, I think that, you know, in, in, and, and my, you know, somebody wants to describe my IMDB page as somewhat schizophrenic. You know, I've, I've, I've worked on a lot of different films and a lot of different times. I don't know what you mean. But it's, but it won, but it is something I do seem to keep coming back to, not of my own volition, but is, is trying to dissect the nature of evil and the evil that men do. Zodiac was sort of about that. Truth is about that in certain ways. And, and this is about that. And, you know, the thing I found amazingly interesting about Goering as a character was that he was known to be so charming and funny.