John Woo: An Empire Podcast Interview Special

27:54Chris Hewitt:You succeeded. Yeah. He's extraordinarily cool, is Chow Yun-fat. When did you first meet him and when did you know that he would be your leading man? Well, you know, it was a long story. In 1985, when I got a supporter from Choi Ha, my very good friend, he supported me to make a birth model. and then that was my first gangster movie you know and then uh uh and then we had uh the same thing and we we we want to make uh this uh gangster movie for the family not for not for the action audience. Yes, okay. So, it means that we want to make it a very high class with a true spirit, a very spiritual gangster movie.

29:03So, this is why I was suggesting to use the real actor. Okay. The real actor to do the action film.

29:11Chris Hewitt:Yeah. Like, and then I he was a very popular on TV series, but not in the movie.

29:29Even though he had work on some movie, but it all flabbed, and he had got a nickname called Box Office of Hoisin. But in my mind, he's a great actor. I think I just like Alan DeLong and Ken Takakula. They look so elegant, so charming, so beautiful, so handsome. but they can, so when they did some action, you know, and it looked so classy, you know. So I think of what I see when I saw Joe N. Fan, and he also have a similar quality. And he's a great actor, and he's not a fighter. He had never learned any Kung Fu. He had never learned. and he said to me he even had never punched a guy so he's a gentleman so I think that's great because I always wanted my hero more look like he had a style pretty much like Gary Gray Yes.

30:55Yeah, so that's why I used him for A Brother More as one of the main characters, as a killer. But he, you know, I also make him, you know, dressed nice, you know, pretty much like Alan Ellen DeLong. So,

31:23and then that might be very interesting, using a real actor to do the action scene. Maybe, you know, we'll make the action sequence look more of a classic. Yeah. You know, so, and then, and you know, more of a, upper level. So, and then he did very good. And then I said, and then I found, you know, and then when we worked together, I showed him how to hold a gun. I said, I said, you just watch the Queen Yiswes movie, you know, he's holding a gun in 30th heavy, he's holding a gun like this. And then, And so, hold a gun or fire, you know. Sometimes it'll look like, you know, a king of war, sometimes it'll look like a male Gibson.

32:27So, anyway, but the good thing about using Joe, in fact, he got both a great quality of acting and action.

32:37Chris Hewitt:Yeah. So you taught him how to use, to hold a gun. Yeah. In both hands as well? Because that's a trademark? That's a John Woo, Chow Yun-Fat trademark? Yeah, but the first beginning was using one gun. When I talked to the props guy, in my movie, a real hero never used a machine gun because the machine gun is so easy. Even though there were over 10 people, 10 enemies, in the room, you just practice trigger to them all. I think there's no hero. And then I was suggesting our hero only use one handgun, just like an ancient knight using a sword. Yes, yes.

34:06how to make the audience believe he could do it with one kind. And by the meantime, I'm so care about the rhythm, especially the music rhythm. So when I'm thinking or deciding an action sequence, I would listen, I like to listen in some kind of music in my mind. So I said, is there any gun can fire nonstop continuing firing, you know? And then they showed me the gun of birth, you know, it's from Switzerland. Because, you know, those guys had ran all the props guns from England. And we were the first time. So they showed me a different kind of gun, and then when they showed me the brother, the brother can load either 9 bullets or 14 bullets.

35:08So he can fire, continue to fire, bum bum bum bum bum bum bum, like that. But I said, even though I don't want him to use a machine gun, but I want him to fire to cut the rhythm like a drum beat. I get that. It's nonstop. I said, one gun is not enough. How about try two? And then the guy showed me, oh, that's interesting. And then they showed me to fire two guns. But you got to shoot one by one. You cannot fire at the same time because the frame is so strong. and it would hurt a finger.

35:57Chris Hewitt:Yes. And then when they fire, I go faster and faster, and then I take my lap.

36:10When they fire, I say, okay, that's it. That's a good rhythm. And they're very smart, so I let the children fire using two guns. Wow. Using two guns, and then by the meantime, since he's a clever man, he is so clever enough to use four guns here, you know, to set the two guns outside of the door in case he needed. Yes. And then he used the first two guns first, and then after the red number of bullets, and then by the step out, he can grab another gun. So that was the idea. I've been working, thinking of the scene, to design the scene for three weeks. Wow I was so glad you know it worked out very well you know when the first time I seen it they were shocked

37:29Chris Hewitt:You obviously you got on so well with Chow Yun Fat, you guys worked together a lot of times of course you killed him off a whole bunch John I mean you killed him in a lot of movies as well was that part of the heroic bloodshed tradition that the hero had to die in a lot of your movies, not all of them obviously but in a lot well there are two things one is from the Chinese philosophy you know

38:01Chris Hewitt:as a

38:06you know as a man got a spirit of suffering. He can be willing to die for a friend or for a country or for the one he loves, for the justice, whatever. So that is qualified. And he feels that that's the real knight whoever got the true spirit should do it.

38:48But in the meantime, I also have a great influence from Alan DeLong's movie. Yes. Yeah, almost in every other movie, he died at the end. He died too, yeah. So that's why. Yes. Because of my work with Joe and Farr, shooting with Joe and Farr. I didn't see Joe and Father's I saw Alan DeLong in front of me actually he's Joe and Father but I saw him Alan DeLong or Ken Takakura you know the Japanese actor I really also have greatly admired him you know so that's how I worked out that's how I got the influence So when I try to explain about the true spirit of slavery in America, it's hard to, I had a hard time to explain to them, you know, that kind of spirit I really like, and that kind of movie I really like to make.

40:02So that's why I couldn't get any same kind of script from in here.

40:11Chris Hewitt:When you started off making action movies, Troy Hawk was a big mentor for you at the time. You came up around the same time as directors like Ringo Lam as well. The heroic bloodshed genre was huge at the time. How aware were you of it? did you discuss it with other directors that was the tradition in Hong Kong action cinema at the time as well as obviously the philosophy you were talking about no they were not because there were non-fiction people later talked to me okay because you know at the time the Hong Kong movie was the comedy was so popular you know and then and then I always said to them you know this kind of movie it doesn't work to make it.

41:02I mean, they're kind of crazy and

41:11accessory you know an over-act of a drama. I think this kind of movie is not for long. And then people just even though you make a lot of money, but you know, but another year the audience totally forgot the movie. So why did we make it? But the people didn't like to listen to me. I said, a movie should be like Lawrence or... or the third man, and the 400 bro, or eight and a half. So they thought I was a butcher, so they didn't listen to me. So I didn't have a chance to talk to them. But in the meantime, I think differently from the others. Yes. So, how do you got a friend? My only friend is Cho Hock.

42:35Oh, really? Cho Hock. Cho Hock is there. With Cho Hock, we can talk a lot of things. He also had given me a lot of help to solve any problem. And actually he's also very good at dialogue as well.

42:53Chris Hewitt:Oh good. So then he, we both like a human story, but also, but we also like to make a movie for, for you know, the bigger audience, you know, we're happy to accept it and feel it, you know. So, and then, but in the meantime, we like to use art form to make an action movie, you know. Yeah. I think some people might be surprised to learn that you essentially improvised a lot of your action sequences, so you would wait to get on set and then you would design the action sequence based on the set that you had or based on the location you had, which given how intricate a lot of your action sequences are, is mind-blowing.

43:55Chris Hewitt:So how did you do that? How did you... I don't know. Maybe I trust my instinct. You know, I said the first thing, you know, first of all, I was pretty involved in a movie you know and then especially for the main character when i'm working with uh shooting a joker fan you know as a killer you know and i feel myself as a killer uh and i walk like a killer and i live like a killer so when i went home you know and my wife and my kid didn't know how to handle me and i didn't know how to know how to talk to me you were a method director yeah Yeah, you can see that. And then, so when I come into the set, and usually in a script, there's two or three movies, I even saw the script, because the whole movie was all in my hand.

45:00And then, we only got a simple outline or something like that, for the crew. and then financier, of course.

45:18So I usually think very fast and make a decision very fast. I know there's something in my mind, there's some kind of action in my mind. So when I got in a location, If I see a long table, and I know how to use the table, okay maybe our hero lives up from the other end, lives up in the air and is shooting two guys over there, and then he lands on the table and flips to the other side, and then continue shooting another guy. Then I would do it by myself. I did it by myself first. You know, I, using a small chain, I step on it and leave it, holding it to a dummy gun, you know, and rolling on the ground.

46:28And then I asked the starting coordinator, okay, put the three guys there and put another two guys behind me after I shoot the two guys in front of me and then I turn to kill another guy. If I feel good, it will thank you. They all feel good and I think our actor will feel good. Wow. That's how I work. And by the meantime, I love dancing.

46:59Chris Hewitt:Yes. I was a pretty good dancer. Twinkle toes. And especially cha-cha. I like cha-cha. I love cha-cha. So I know, you know, so that's why I showed the action sequence more like a dance. Yes. So when I'm on the set, you know, I just feel like I'm making a dancing sequence instead of a fighting scene. So anyway, but in the meantime, I'm a good editor. Yes. So I edit and shooting at the same time. So every action piece and the camera speed, you know, which camera is a normal speed or 50 frames or 96 frames, you know, different angles. And all the camera angles were connected, not just suited for a reference or something like that.

48:05You know, it's suited for real. When he jumps over this camera and the other camera can capture his close-up and then bring him into shooting the gun and then land on the ground and then we got another camera on the ground. So that's how I worked and by the meantime, since I liked the European film so much, so what I remember when I was shooting The Killer, in the beginning we got no script, new story. I just want to make a movie as a homage to John F. Mel, The Last Samurai. So all of a sudden I got the idea if the cops also become the killer. So I think the cop wanted to catch the killer and he had to become him.

49:14And he had to understand him. So all of a sudden I got one shot in my mind. One shot in my mind is the camera outside the window. and the window with a lot of tall glass with so many frames. And then the camera put outside, and then started from left to right. And then each frame, the first frame, we saw the killer sitting there and smoking and thinking. and then when the camera crossing to the second frame and then we change the cop sitting in the same position and doing the same thing and smoking and thinking.

50:08Chris Hewitt:Yeah. Like they are thinking each other. And then to the third frame we come back to the killer again. Yes. And then the cop. So just this It's one idea, one shot. We started with this kind of one shot. And nobody knows what's going on. Why are you going to shoot it? I just asked the producer, okay, find me in a French house in Hong Kong. Find me in a French house with a tall window. Yes. And then there was a lot of, you know, and then I saw they were fighting for months, you know, and they couldn't find one. So I said, I need to, because I got one shot, this is the only shot for the whole movie, it's a key shot for the movie.

51:12So, and then I started writing a story, Start from this shot.

51:18Chris Hewitt:From that one shot. Yeah. From that one shot. And then after a month, the police came up to me, John, we couldn't find a house. This is Hong Kong, not French.

51:34So, not French.

51:39So disappointed. It's an English colony. The English houses look pretty much like French houses. Anyway, at last we found a very old building to get that kind of sauce. So we got that sauce. So that's how I worked. Sometimes I saw what I feel. I saw what I said, and there's something come up in my mind that they never saw. So I really miss when we were working in Hong Kong. We really got so much creative freedom.

52:29Chris Hewitt:Yes. No one will come up to you and send you any notes to give you any advice, even though the financier never got a chance to come to the set. Wow, okay. For the financial good and for instance, they got so much money and they own the Kowloon bus. And then for the film business, they also have so much confidence on us. So, this time when we are trying to start a movie, to shoot a movie, we just give him, sometimes give him a script, but sometimes it's just a very simple outline. and then they usually ask how much I said okay about 20 million dollars okay what kind of stuff oh okay that's great and then when are you going to maybe in a couple months or okay go ahead do it give her the money so they are very simple you know it's so simple and then we because we trust each other they know how we work and I know how to make a move we can get the money back yes because our market is so small we only got Hong Kong, Taiwan or Singapore or some Chinatown and foreign country and then so we could easily could make the money back.

54:48So we got used to deciding some action sequence, audience love, and then anyway, that's how we make the movie. And then we are really like a tool

55:05Chris Hewitt:on the set. Yes. We just start with the feeling. Wow. So that's a good thing about Hunger. and by the meantime in the 1980s the Hong Kong movie had a big change. They were changing, you know, like a revolution. So there are a lot of great filmmakers, you know, they have been called the Hong Kong New Wave. Most of them have been studying from England or America or Australia. Anyway, so they are very knowledgeable filmmakers. So everyone will bring out some great new films. So that's why I was lucky to have a chance to work with So, Trey Hawk and then we, one of them, you know. Yeah. So, that's, we were, you know, lucky timing.

56:31But,

56:32Chris Hewitt:but you said that you used to say to the producers, you know, I'd like to do this and they would go, how much? 30 million. And then, when will they shoot next year, maybe? With Hard Boiled, Hard Boiled was a big step up. was it harder to raise the money for Hard Boiled? I mean, it was such a bigger movie than anything you'd done before. No, it wasn't hard to do that, you know. But the best thing was, you know, when I shot this film, I nearly got crazy. I had no breakdown, you know, because I was, like you said, I'm kind of like the method director. When I watch the news every day, and then the reason I shot the film, because at that time, the Hong Kong gang was almost out of control.

57:43They got the firepower much bigger than the police force. Yes. You know, so I feel... And then shooting people on the street, you know, and it was so crazy, you know, I got so mad. Every day, whenever I watch a film, there were some good people being beat up by the gang or shot by the gang, you know, I got so much... I got fury. Yeah. I put the anger into the film. So I just keep shooting. When I'm shooting on the set, the same guy playing the big guy, and I saw him, he's just the guy who did that thing to the innocent people. And then I will ask the guy, I give him much bigger blood, you know, and blow him off, you know.

58:46And our hero, you give him more blood. So, because I, how to say it, I was drawing in the news, you know, what was happening in the real world. and I bring it into the set. Yes. You know, so we have to, you know, just like to give them a listen and also give them heart. Yes. So when I'm shooting this and that, I suppose in a scene, you know, killing a couple of guys, that's enough, you know, we have to move on. until certain, but when I was certain, no one could stop me. I keep thinking, you know, that besides the criminal and then also there are some other country, like a small country, by the other, you know, much a smaller country, you know.

1:00:01So the wars going on, so I also could make me mad. And also, it made me make a scene, the action sequence, like in a hospital. Yes. Actually, it was symbolic of a small country when they were being attacked. Everyone had been hiding in the war zone. So then they have to fight back, and they need a hero to save them, something like that. So that's why I shot the script. They are not in the script. There's all... everything all depends on my mood and my thinking. And then what I have emotionally, in fact, by something bad happened. you know so that's how I don't say why we keep just shooting shooting and and then she said there are no script and nobody know when the movie when the story going to end going to be end you know so that's why we are way over we have double and triple and got a shooting schedule getting extended longer and longer and longer.

1:01:57Suppose we got to deliver the prints before Christmas because all the buyers from Korea, from other countries, they already paid the money and they already set up their releasing day in their own country. They were supposed to invite you to leave before the Christmas and they will release in the Christmas day. So they broke the theater everywhere. But when I started in the Christmas the movie still had one third interference. finished so and then they all came over and fly over and then they're backing me john uh you got to finish the movie i said yeah i will i will try i'll try to do it quick you know that's how it yeah so uh uh that's uh how it works oh my god which is amazing because that the the hospital

1:03:08Chris Hewitt:sequence is just extraordinary. The corridor shootout, the famous single shot take where you had to change the set whilst Tony and Zhao Yunfat were in the elevator. I love that. But just finally, just going back to what you were saying earlier on about figuring out the action sequences, putting yourself in the hero's shoes, seeing how it would look seeing how it would feel did you do that in the hospital sequence? did you show Chow Yun-fat and Tony Leung what to do? that shootout sequence were you doing that for them? every scene every single scene no wonder you were exhausted yeah because you know I I I love to do that I love to you know and holding a gun you know and running with the actors oh you do that The cameraman said, okay, you can follow from here, and then after I fire, you turn to our close-up, and then we keep leading us running, and then all of a sudden we change direction, and then you change the camera over my shoulder, and then you shoot the scene.

1:04:32So that's how I work with the actor. And by the meantime, our actor is very brave. The reason we like to make a long shot because we all have been stuck at a location for over a month. Since it was a nice scene, we got to shoot in the daytime. So we have to darken all the windows. So we got to shoot 24 hours a day and no one can leave the room. We only got a simple bed and in a room for the actor to get some rest. Somebody gets tired and go get some rest. and then after we were all ready, and then we continued shooting. And by the meantime,

1:05:36we exchanged the crew every nine hours. Wow. And then we never know if it's daytime or nighttime because the window's all dark. And then while we were looking, all of a sudden the maid came in. He said, Mr. Wu, the breakfast is ready. Oh, and then we know, oh, it's morning.

1:06:10Then we ate and sure, you know. So the whole thing was when we saw a good guy firing and that guy got shot every day doing the same thing. I get, we feel so boring. But I mean, we all feel, we're all stuck in hell. And nobody knows when we came out from hell, you know, when we get through. So all of a sudden I got the idea. I said, how about this? I like to do a four or five minute long shot and then Joe and Tony Leung start shooting from one quarter and then from first floor going to the second floor and do it all in one shot and it had never happened, it had never seen in any of the Hong Kong film before, even the Western film, you know.

1:07:25So everybody was so excited about it, and especially because we say it, but the thing was, we only got one floor. And then I said, okay, I came up with the idea. How about, after the shooting in the first floor, we built an elevator. Yes. And the two heroes get into the, elevator, when the door closed, we made up 20 seconds dialogue. No. So, let us say anything. And then in 20 seconds, the whole crew got to change the set outside the elevator. They have to write out the blood and pull out that body and replace the table and the window, and then make the to build the second floor set in 22nd. Wow.

1:08:30So after 22nd, when the dial is finished, the door open is on the second floor and continue shooting, and the camera follows. So the first day we fell, and then we have no monitor but at that time we have hired, we have used about nine cameras from different angles. So the guy can hiding in one room can see the actor, where they go, when do they fire, so they can press the button. it was very tough the first day was fail but we already ran out of money I said okay I gotta change the idea but the whole crew even the actor said no John and especially the stunt guy John this is your your idea, this great idea, you're going to make the Hong Kong film history.

1:09:50Let's do it again. But they won't give us more money. Money is nothing. Let's do it again. So the whole thing we crashed to do. One more time, the second day, fail. Because the elevator what we built or we got stuck. Oh my God. So, and then the third day failed. I said, okay, that's it. We have no more time and then I got so much pressure from the producer. You know, and then,

1:10:30okay, let's try the last one. Last one, one more time. So, and then we do it again in the four days. So we did. And then we did. Even though there was some little problem in there, but it's still okay. So at least we got a whole shot. Oh, and then everybody so relaxed and cheers. So I I'm so glad to make a shot happen. So I must say besides we have a good actor I also have a good team very good team especially the camera crew and they stun people when the camera crew when I for the last scene when I blow up the whole building so we have set 50 bombs in every three story it was a three-story abandoned Coca-Cola factory.

1:11:44So we had shot 50 bombs by the window. And a lot of people running out and they blow up. When the camera followed our hero, with a story and a tracking holding a baby running in the middle of an explosion. And then, but I saw the, off the camera the explosion is still continuing. And there's so much good fire. And then I kicked the camera operator. I said, grab the grabbed the camera to get into the fire, give me a shot. So the camera assistant got to unscrew the camera from the tripod in three seconds. And then grabbed the camera or put on the shoulder and grab a wet towel, you know, or put on the hand.

1:12:53And then he ran into of a fire and Cornelius shot the explosion in fire. Oh my God. That's how we work.

1:13:00Chris Hewitt:Oh my God. That's how we work. And then for this thing, guy, okay, there were two stories, okay, you go out to the first floor and you got shot. Got shot, and you fall, face down, fall on the ground with no cushion, with no protection. I said, there's a, I said, okay, we will do it. And then he goes, and fall on the ground. That's how we, so they're so brave, and so cooperative, and the highest beauty, you know. So I love my stunt guy. So that's why, one of the bigger visions, I'd like to continue making an action movie. Because I have highly respect to stun people from all over the world. You know, in Hong Kong and America and England, you know, France, you know, wherever I walk, you know, you know, I just want to keep the stun people alive.

1:14:11Yes. Keep working as well, yeah. Keep working and keep trying something new. And they love challenges. Good. they love challenges so I feel like you know I'm working with a friend honestly

1:14:26Chris Hewitt:on that note John Woo this has been an absolute pleasure thank you so much for so much of your time but now I have to go to the airport I have to fly home thank you so much thank you for your support and I hope England I mean the British soccer team will win we shall see we shall see John Woo thank you so much thank you so much thank you Well, that was John Woo, folks. And while his World Cup prediction skills may not be on point, this is obviously going out the morning after England lost to Argentina in the World Cup semifinals. That interview very much was on point. What a pleasure it was to talk to the great John Woo and Bullets and Brotherhood.

1:15:08Chris Hewitt:The BFI season dedicated to John Woo is still running at the BFI South Bank in London until the end of July. so you'll be able to see both parts of A Better Tomorrow you'll be able to see The Killer Bullet in the Head Once a Thief which is a film that is often overlooked in his canon you'll be able to see Hard Target which is a film in which Jean-Claude Van Damme bites the rattle of a rattlesnake you'll be able to see Face Off both parts of Red Cliff and of course Hard Boiled which looks way better on the big screen at the BFI than it did on my mate Ross's portable TV but you're going to enjoy it every bit as much as I did.

1:15:48Chris Hewitt:And hey, maybe even a little more. And I hope you enjoyed that interview. I know we didn't cover everything in Wu's career, but I did genuinely have to run to the airport. But it was an absolute pleasure talking to John Wu. I know I say that at the end of every interview. This has been a pleasure. What an absolute pleasure this has been. Sometimes, spoiler alert, I don't always mean it. But on this occasion, I very much did. John Wu, dream come true. And on that note, that is it for this John Woo interview special. There will be more interview specials coming your way very, very soon, including Matt Damon, Tom Holland, John Leguizamo and Himesh Patel on The Odyssey.

1:16:27Chris Hewitt:And Scott Aukerman, host of my favourite podcast in the entire universe, Comedy Bang Bang, talking ahead of his forthcoming UK and Ireland tour. That's going to be up there as well. And other stuff. Other stuff's coming your way very, very soon. So keep your eyes peeled. and thank you as ever for listening and supporting the podcast. It means a great deal. All right, that's enough from me. Thank you so much for listening. See you next time. Bye-bye.