Movie News Mews (ft. guests, Matt Shakman and Sam Rockwell)

18:23All right. Okay.

18:23Chris Hewitt:Very, very quickly. Okay. I'm just going to go through some MCU people, not because it's the MCU, but because everyone's been in the MCU. So therefore, they might throw up some interesting names. Anthony Hopkins. Anthony Hopkins. Odin. Hannibal Lecter. But he's never played a bad guy. What a shame. Because as we all know, Hannibal Lecter was very troubled. He had a very troubled childhood, which absolves him of all his sins. The true hero of the Silence of the Lambs. Oh, boy. Run far away, all the way, to the MCU. Yeah, yeah, Anthony Hopkins. I love that that's the first person you went to when I said the MCU.

19:02Chris Hewitt:And oh, of course, Anthony Hopkins. Anthony Hopkins, naturally. Because I was like, I want people who are in the MCU, you idiot. And I went, oh, no, he was in the MCU. Well, RDJ was the villain in Weird Science, but I'm not sure what to call that iconic. He was a henchman. He was a dreadful man. When I think of Robert Downey Jr., I think iconic heroes, of course. I think Harry Lockhart in Kiss Kiss Bang Bang. I think of Tony Stark in the Marvel Cinematic Universe. When I think of iconic bad guys, I think Charlie Chaplin in Chaplin. This is a man who launched an unprovoked assault on comedy. Jeez.

19:37Chris Hewitt:And maybe the guy who played an Oppenheimer, was that a baddie? That was a baddie, right? It was certainly an antagonist. yeah he wasn't what you call a goodie no whereas in the MCU of course he's an Ant-Man protagonist technically he's a villain and a hero in the MCU now is he? that was the premise of the question you remember back in the beginning of the discussion I don't remember that no when you read the question I remember that dim distant part was there a question? have we always been answering this question? how is Tony the hero in the film? oh because he's Doctor Doom there we go there we go I get there in the end all right chris evans chris evans oh he's played nothing but shitheads since he left yeah the mcu are you kidding me like they've all been absolute dickheads yes this is the gray man's mustache i think alone qualifies him for crimes against facial hair which is and actually do you know what you could have this because you could have the gray man mustache as the villain and then the cat beard as the hero and he could be like both sides cancel each other out yeah exactly I came to this thinking there wouldn't be many answers to this question and in actual fact there's a million there are millions and millions you've blown my thesis apart lots of people want to play heroes because they're the hero but lots of people want to play villains because they're the most fun so of course you want to play both I do think it's probably difficult for people though who are traditional leading men and women because you don't want to get pigeonholed in that or sort of ushered down the sort of villainous route by being, you know, English Peter Cushing!

21:08Peter Cushing! Grand Muff talking and you know the vampire killer well that's a vampire dear lord are you sure about that I mean

21:18Chris Hewitt:yes but even in Hammer Peter Cushing would routinely he would pivot from pivot pivot and he would be he would be Baron Frankenstein in one movie usually he had a Frankenstein in the name so he would help him remember he was meant to be playing and then Van Helsing in some of the Drac Lears the vampire killer yes the vampire killer James yes the quite famous one as it happens. Christopher Lee. Christopher Lee. Yes. Who of course famously was Dragulier in all of his Dragulier films. Yeah. And Saruman. Saruman. But perhaps arguably the hero. Well not arguably the hero. He is the hero in Hammer's greatest movie The Devil Rides Out.

22:00Chris Hewitt:So they're all at it. What a waste of time this has been. So the answer is everyone. Pretty much everyone Gary Oldman Gary Oldman yep Leon and Commissioner Gordon let's say oh I'm going to go with Jackson Lamb no TV no TV I refuse to acknowledge these boundaries just that you refuse to acknowledge the clock that's true all of these things alright okay so I was going to say if you want to have your question made out on the Empire Podcast you can get in touch with us via a number of methods but really just watch me on social media and see where I rock up every single week but I also think we have next week's question in the bag what is it?

22:43Chris Hewitt:I can't remember excellent but it was a good one fantastic but it was one of those ones that needs a bit of research so I need to let you guys know yeah maybe let me know now so there's a chance I might see it before next week although you might not be here next week that's a good point although I also might be it's very hard to say at this point we shall see alright should we have a question a guest should we have a question a guest a guest should we have a guest asking a question Ask a question of a guest. Ask a guest of a question. Oh God, what's happened to my head? That's ask a question of a guest.

23:14Chris Hewitt:Shall we have a question guest? Yes. All right, good stuff. Who do you want? We have Matt Shackman. Great. Matt Shackman is the director of the Fantastic Four First Steps, which is, do you know what number it is in the Marvel Cinematic Universe? 37. Correct. It is the 37th film in the MCU in a row. And it's out this week in cinemas all across the globe, all across the multiverse. And it is the big debut in the MCU, of course, of the Fantastic Four. Fantastic Bob! And it stars Pedro Pascal and Vanessa Kirby and Joseph Quinn and Ebba Moss Bacharach and Galactus as himself. and Shackman of course directed also WandaVision which is probably still the best MCU TV show that's one of the things I spoke to him about whenever I sat down with him in a London hotel room about a week and a half ago now and we hadn't seen the whole film at this point Disney and Marvel decided to show just 20 minutes of the movie and we talked about that as well and a great many things besides here is Matt Shackman talking about Fantastic Four enjoy Enjoy Excelsior!

24:33Chris Hewitt:We're delighted to be joined to the Emperor Podcast by the director of The Fantastic Four, First Steps, Matt Schachman. How are you, sir? I'm well, thank you. Thank you for having me. Oh, no, thank you for being here. So, Matt, I've already seen about 20 minutes of the movie so far. It is finished, right? Yes, it is finished, yes. Okay, or is that it? You've already done 20 minutes and you forgot to do the rest of the movie. I'm exhausted, yeah. You were like, I knew there was something. There's something we were missing. Oh, God, another 90 minutes, roughly. But, yeah, it's done and dusted. It is now, yeah.

25:01Chris Hewitt:Yeah, okay. And you're exhausted? No, I'm doing all right. I'm actually okay. Yeah, you know, surprisingly. I'm a little jet-lagged. I'm a little tired. But it's been three years, but it's been really exciting. And it's been a dream project of mine. So I'm very excited to bring it out into the world and show it to people. I'm interested in that journey. That's what your journey of yours. So did it begin immediately after WandaVision or during WandaVision? How did it start for you? It didn't. It began after WandaVision because I went off to do a Star Trek movie that didn't end up happening. So John Watts was going to direct Fantastic Four and he ended up deciding to step away because he was a little tired after making three Spider-Man movies and I think needed a break, which was my great fortune because I love the Fantastic Four and have since I was a kid.

25:49And so when I got that call to come in to chat about doing Fantastic Four, I was really excited. And I left Star Trek, which was a movie that was still sort of in development. but in some ways they're very similar. They were both created in the early 60s. They both are inspired by the space race and they have that similar sense of optimism. One's a found family, the other one's an actual family. And I was thrilled to join and thrilled to take over the reins on this one.

26:14Chris Hewitt:So you get the call, you come in for your first meeting. How set in stone is this concept at that point? How much of this movie is you? Yeah, no, I mean, you know, not set in stone at all. You know, we, you know, we spent a lot of time figuring out, you know, what this story would be about, how we wanted to get into this family, where we wanted to find them. Literally, you know, what is this world that they're living in? one of the things we knew we wanted to do from the beginning is not put it in the Marvel's 616 universe, the MCU universe, just because there are so many questions, you know, where have they been?

26:53Why did they not help defeat Thanos? You know, all of those things. So we decided it would be better just to put them in their own corner of the universe, which was lovely because as much as I love interconnected storytelling and I do and I'm a big Marvel fan, there was something refreshing about starting a world that, anew, where they're the only superheroes. And I didn't need to, you know, lay any sort of, you know, sort of trail for other stories to come. It was just about these characters, this family. And to build a whole universe is really exciting as a filmmaker.

27:24Chris Hewitt:From the footage I've seen, you're not bound by things like the origin story. We get it, and we get it presented in an interesting way, but you don't have to spend 20, 25 minutes on setup. So we start at media res, you're going straight in right away. Yes, there have been other great Fantastic Four films, and they've all sort of done that story. So that was one of the things we decided early on, which is, hey, let's not do that origin story so that you don't know what that first act is going to be. If you do the origin story, then you've got to kind of hit all of those common, well-known plot points.

28:00Spider-Man, when they brought Spider-Man to the MCU, they did the same thing. They kind of just skipped the field trip to the museum and the spider bite and all that. And I think that was great. It opened up new avenues of storytelling.

28:12Chris Hewitt:Yeah, because if I see Uncle Ben being killed once more, so help me. Exactly. But with the FF, I mean, there's been a lot more Spider-Man movies. And so we've seen that origin, I guess, a little bit more. Obviously, there was a Josh Trank FF, the Tim Story movies as well. And the Roger Corman one that no one has really ever seen or talks about. It's on YouTube. It's wonderful. Give it a view. Give it a watch. You know, I've never seen it. Yeah. So it's on YouTube? Yeah. Oh, wow. Okay. Interesting. We have those fantastic four actors in our movie. Oh, my God. Yeah. Alex Howard, Dwight, and all those.

28:45Chris Hewitt:Oh, my God. That's amazing. It's incredible. Yes. Fantastic. Little cameos, yeah. Oh, great. So is that something you wanted to do? Yeah. Yeah. Wanted to honor them. They did a great job. And the story of that movie, you know, and the fact that it never came out, you know, it's heartbreaking. But they all, you know, did their best job to bring that story to life. And they're all great. Yeah. But of course you have those movies to think about when you're forging this. So again, can you talk about differentiating this? Setting in the 60s is where you start right away. Yeah. But with something like this where you have Galactus, you have The Silver Surfer.

29:22Yeah.

29:23Chris Hewitt:How do you go about making it markedly different from, say, Rise of The Silver Surfer? Yeah. I wasn't really thinking about those other movies so much. You know, I've seen them. I respect them. I think they're great. Yeah. But I was focused more on the comic books. I was focused also more on me as a person and who these characters were to me and what the emotional story was. And, you know, I think if I'd made this movie when I was 25, it would be a very, very different movie for many reasons. But now, you know, I'm a husband. I'm a father. Yeah. And I find that draws me in in a different way. You know, this is a story about parenting.

29:57You know, it's a story about a real family. It's a story about how a child changes everything, you know. And that to me was deeply personal because I've been through that. So many other people have as well. And I think we all know what it's like to be in a family, you know, the messiness, the good parts, the bad parts, the humor, the heart. And I think that's really what makes them unique in comic book history is just that they are a true, true family. There are a lot of found families, you know, Star Trek's one of them. And obviously the X-Men, the Avengers, you know, Justice League, all that.

30:27But a true family with all of the complexity, that's what makes them special. And that's what I was focusing on. And so bringing in that interesting wrinkle of Sue being pregnant, Franklin, I presume it's Franklin, in this movie, being born, being part of the story of the movie.

30:48Chris Hewitt:Yes. When did you hit upon that? Was that because of your experiences in life that you thought, okay, I need to bring this into the movie? Very early on, yeah. I think so. So I think that's what makes them so unique. I mean, Wanda has children and WandaVision, another project that I had. But other than that, there aren't a lot of, you know, parents and kids, you know, in the Marvel universe. And that is what makes them special, you know. And so, yeah, we skipped the origin story. We put it in a different universe. We put it in the 60s. And we brought children into the story. So all of those things certainly differentiate it from other movies that have come before.

31:19But for me, it just became an opportunity to tell a story about, you know, all the things that we feel as parents. And then you get to multiply it by a thousand because they're superheroes and they're celebrities and all the things that make them who they are. And they've been through an incident of cosmic radiation. You know, I think, you know, I think, you know, when you have a kid, you go, you go and, you know, worry about, oh, gosh, I hope they don't inherit this part or this thing. And all the nerves you have as parents, you know, about having kids. Imagine if you also had cosmic radiation.

31:46You know, you'd also wonder if your child's going to be healthy, you know, or that what's it going to be like. I could, you know, those are factors, parental anxiety, hoping for the best. And also, you know, it's rare that a president or a prime minister has a child well-being president and prime minister. But these guys are the most famous people in the world. And they live in a glass tower in the Baxter building. And bringing a child into all of that has a lot, has big stakes, you know, and big questions to be asked.

32:14Chris Hewitt:Did that change how you looked at the casting of the FF as well? Not just in terms of who you were looking for, but in terms of things like what the actors were asked to test with, what sides they were given, that sort of thing. Were you focusing with Reed and with Sue? Were you focusing on that side of things? Definitely. I'm definitely thinking about putting together people who are believable as a family, people who are believable as, you know, husband and wife, as brother and sister, as best friend. That felt good as a couple, but also of the right age, you know, with having children. that, you know, that was a big part of it.

32:49So that was a, you know, big part of who we focused on and how we put those folks together.

32:55Chris Hewitt:How did you go about it? I mean, because Sarah Halley Finn has been a huge part of these movies right back in the beginning. Sure. I imagine Kevin is heavily involved in this as well. Yes. So can you talk me through how you do that? How you find your FF as a collective? Yes. I mean, you can do it in a lot of different ways. Way we did it was to go after them individually, you know, sort of to focus on each part separately. I didn't ever have, you know, all four of them together, you know, auditioning or doing anything like that. But I slowly started to assemble components, you know. And I'm also a person who runs by instinct.

33:31You know, I've never, when I do a lot of theater and I cast plays, it's rare that I find two or three actors that are perfect for the part and I'm debating amongst them. there's one person who just says to me that it's their part, right? And I know it's their, it's - Is it that simple, man?

33:49Chris Hewitt:You just go in and say, this is my part. Well, they don't say it. I feel it. Because there's some actors who might go, listen, this is the, I can't believe this is so easy. I should have been doing this all along. Yeah. Well, in some ways it is, you know, the anxiety that actors feel, you know, they come in, they audition or whatever. And it's, it really is so much as, is outside of their control. Like you fit something or you don't, right? And directors often talk about how 95 % of the job is casting. And I think it's really true. But when I met each one of these guys to talk about this, and some of them I've known already from before.

34:18You know, Pedro and I have known each other since we were very young. And Joe and I worked together on Game of Thrones. But I didn't know Vanessa or Eben before this. But each of them, I just knew that they were the right person for it. You know, I just knew that they were the right – that they were Johnny Storm, that they were Ben Grimm, that they were Sue Storm, or they were Reed Richards. I just knew it based on their other work, based on conversations, based on the vibe that you get. And you kind of have to go by instinct.

34:48Chris Hewitt:Yeah. When was the first time you had all four of them in the same room? Rehearsal. All four of them in a room was for rehearsal. They kind of, you know, once I'd cast folks, Vanessa and Pedro and I got together and did some Zooms and things. And they met up in person, I believe. Joe and Evan met up at some stuff here in London where they were doing press for separate things. and got to meet each other. And Pedro and Joe know each other because they had done Gladiator together already. So, you know, they all, but together as a group was rehearsal. And we had three weeks of rehearsal before we started production.

35:22Chris Hewitt:Was that a nerve wracking day when you get all four of them together? No, it's super fun. You know, it's great to bring them all together. You spend all this time, you know, meeting individually and figuring out who is the right person for that part. And then you bring them all together and it's just a lot of fun. I just spoke to Ralph. Yes. And he was saying that when he first met you for this role, that you've effectively offered him the role right there and in. And he was a little bit taken aback by that because he was going to go through all kinds of processes and screen tests and all sorts of stuff.

35:53Chris Hewitt:So you presumably knew with him the same way you knew with the other guys as well. Yes, 100%. So what was it about Ralph Inneson that made you think, this is the devourer of worlds? You spoke to him. I think you know. My ears are still recovering. He has, I mean, he's a wonderful actor. And, you know, he has the greatest voice of anyone in the world. And if you're imagining someone who can be a 14 billion year old space vampire who eats planets, you know, that voice is 14 billion years old, right? No, he's just, and he just is so much power. He's the sweetest person, the nicest person. Yeah. Wouldn't harm a fly or eat a planet.

36:35it. But as an actor, you know, I just knew it was the right fit.

36:39Chris Hewitt:Okay. Can you talk about the voice? Because we haven't heard the voice yet. So obviously, I'm not going to ask for an approximation of it. Who can? There's only one. Yeah, precisely. But finding Galactus' voice, I mean, that must have been a hell of a journey. Or did you and Ralph know exactly what you were going to zero in on? I mean, you know, we talked about it. We wanted it to feel timeless. We wanted it to feel unique in a way. It's less about an accent or anything like that and more just about taking his time really was a big part of it. This is a guy who's 14 billion years old and moves at his own pace.

37:20And what is it like to be that big and that old? And sort of to sense that scale was a big part of it as well. So listen, I mean, again, 95 % of my job is casting, I guess. And that voice that he comes with is a big part of it. Yeah.

37:38Chris Hewitt:Ralph was telling me that he was actually in the costume for quite a bit of it. Yes. So what's it like when you have him in costume as Galactus towering over what? Is he towering over miniatures or is he against green screen? What's going on there? We wanted to do things practically in the film as much as we could, right? So we built miniatures. We built amazing sets. We built Herbie robots and Fantasticars. Everything that we could build, we built. We had a full Ben Grimm, you know, in all of his costumes with the prosthetic and all that sort of stuff. There as reference, you know, Eben's performance was all mocap.

38:11Ralph was a combination of mocap and a practical suit. Alex Byrne and her team, costume designer, built this incredible Galactus outfit. and we filmed him up on a you know a giant lift looming above the fantastic four so they could interact with each other um and when we photographed ralph we photographed him like a miniature we flooded him with light so that you know when you film mount rushmore everything is everything is in focus right when you film a human face things fall off yeah and so the trick you know in the same way when you shoot a small miniature but you want to make it feel like it's enormous is to flood it with light.

38:47And so we used, uh, we were very careful in our lensing and our lighting to be able to film him. So he felt enormous. And then you add on top of that, um, a lot of CG to kind of help with the scale, whether it's, you know, dust and little bits of steam and all of the things that are our clues for scale, you know, and then trying to shoot him obviously relative to a surfer or to the fantastic four to kind of understand that scale.

39:12Chris Hewitt:And in terms of the scale, in terms of deciding how big he is in the movie, because Galactus, his size has changed over the years. Sure. He wasn't as big as he is in the movie when when Lee and Kirby first introduced him. But he's a he's a he's a big boy in this film. Is that in a way a reaction to things like Godzilla and Kong that you need to have something that makes real impact when he when he arrives? Yes, yes, for sure. I love Godzilla, you know, and Galactus is a kaiju in a way. And he has changed scale. You know, sometimes he even changes scale within something intentionally. But for us, it was about, you know, making sure that he felt incredibly formidable.

39:52And again, once he comes to Earth, you know, ooh, spoiler. You know, you have relative scale references there that are helpful. You know, what's harder is to make him feel huge when he's in his own ship, which is as big as he is.

40:04Chris Hewitt:Well, Shackman's been a pleasure. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you. Pleasure. Okay, that was Matt Shackman talking about the Fantastic Four First Steps, and we will be reviewing that film later on in the show. That was a good question, guest. Shall we have some movie news questions now? Oh, please. Yeah, let's. What has been happening, here's one, in the world of movie news this week? Oh, where do we even begin? Shall we start with the trailer? Yeah, I mean, the trailers, there have been quite a few, but one in particular. Yes. You should be the one to introduce this one, James. Since I introduced it to you.

40:34Yes, indeed. On stage. On stage, yes. The first trailer for James Cameron's Avatar Fire and Ash, which lands on December the 19th, but of course debuts in front of Fantastic Four First Steps this Friday, the 25th, and then arrives online on Monday the 28th of July. Wow, you said that really fluidly. Almost like you had previously introduced screenings of this trailer in the London cinema this week. It's funny that, though. But of course, you wanted to see it on the biggest and best screen available, Helen, in 3D, the only way to watch an Avatar film. It does look good. There's a lot of action.

41:02I mean, it's the way Cameron does these things, doesn't he? like the first teaser for an Avatar film is always a vibes trailer like there's not a lot of dialogue in it it's largely just sequences and motion and the ash tribe that we see great big floating jellyfish balloons lots of there are some really interesting moments in there like if you actually look at the trailer which may be I'm not going to spoil them here but there are some if you're eagle eyed there are some moments in there that will indicate I think some quite major plot turns in the film which is very exciting but more than anything else it made me realize how desperately i want to go back to pandora just the music like the just the theme to avatar really kind of like didn't quite bring tears to my eyes but it got me very very excited for this what is the theme to avatar i can't hum it but when i hear it it's wonderful

41:48Chris Hewitt:interesting does it go like fantastic pandora yeah it's basically that yeah but i mean what i mean what did you think the visuals i thought were incredible i mean they're always incredible aren't they but i thought the ash tribe have a very distinct aesthetic we saw varang which is Tuna Chapman's character. She's the leader of the Astral. We saw her with Quaritch in his blue form as well. But also I noticed that the ultra-high frame rate was quite obvious in the trailer. And I think it makes everything look so much crisper and clearer and kind of really immerses you in it. And normally I'm a bit weird on ultra-high frame rate because I think it makes things not feel cinematic.

42:24But I don't think that's ever been true of Avatar. And he definitely did it in Way of Water. I don't know if he did it in the original Avatar. but like he mixes up the frame rate so for action sequences it will ramp up to I guess like 120 and then it goes right the way back down in dialogue scenes so it's not always ultra high frame rate but he uses it judiciously very well. He does yeah it looks really cool. I had the same feeling somebody said to me that day it was like oh who's an Avatar fan and I said everyone is when they're watching it and then you maybe forget but then you watch it again you're like holy shit this is good.

42:57So I feel like people who are sniping about it online have maybe forgotten. First and third biggest movie's ever made. Yeah, exactly. Not everyone going to the cinema can be wrong. Let's hope not. And let's hope they all turn out again this year. It would be nice to see people get back in the habit of going to the cinema, which I think is one of the big problems we have right now. Yeah, but this... Yeah, it looks good. It looks like a progression of the story. It looks like things are developing. Can I tell all the kids apart? Still not 100%. Do you remember their names? No, no, I don't. But I could pick out...

43:30Neytiri and Jake Suley and the one who is the one who is actually Sigourney Weaver Kiri that's Kiri Kiri yes so like you know I've got some of them down and Spider I've got some of them down I just need to pick up the others but it's just it's just like it's a really transportational film that is all of them well there's a lot of transportation involved a lot of transportation involved giant jellyfish skim wings ikrams all of them

43:55Chris Hewitt:that's it in this trailer do we see Payakan we do we do he is there it is a pie can not a pie can't it's too painful it is too painful he's here so if you're part of the pie can hive you will be well served by this trailer who isn't part of the pie can hive would you call it a hive more of a pod surely more of a pod yeah school surely right no or is it more of a dolphin it's more of a pod I think he's a cephalopod isn't he I think so yeah I think so but yeah this will be online on Monday so you will be able to see it but you should try and get to a cinema yeah if you're listening to this right now because lots of people will be going to see DFF well then you'll see it in front of Fantastic Four.

44:28Chris Hewitt:And then you can hear what Jimbo and Helen are talking about. I'm curious to see because how are they going to show because Fantastic Four no one's going to be watching in 3D. So are they going to have the presentations of the trailer in 3D before the 2D film? How can they? No, I think they're just going to do it in 2D. It's a shame though because I'm like... Is it? No, genuinely. And I will stand for this. I fucking hate 3D in films except for Avatar. So I think these films are conceived and executed with that in mind. That is his whole vision for it. And I think if you're not watching it in 3D you are not watching...

44:56Yeah, you're not watching James Cameron James Francis Cameron you may have heard of him but you're not watching the film that he's making unless you're watching it in 3D so I do think it's important to witness it that way I also feel like there's a difference between the people who know what they're doing with 3D and the people who don't right and he very much does

45:12Chris Hewitt:he very much does but like in the same way that like Martin Scorsese dabbled with Hugo Steven Spielberg dabbled with Tintin both of those were in 3D and were excellent in 3D it's the same with James Cameron if it's a director who knows their onions, then you're probably okay. If it's a post, you know, conversion and nobody was really paying attention, then maybe you don't. Thankfully, they've kind of fallen by the wayside right now. They've fallen by the wayside, yeah. It's not really a thing anymore. The way that Parker Selfridge has fallen by the wayside, was he in this trailer? I'm sure he's going to be back.

45:42Chris Hewitt:He was not. I didn't see Mick Scoresby either, but if you can't get into it, get out of it. Get out of it. As the quote does not go, you can't get into it, get out of it. And speaking of getting out of it, you've got to get out of it. I do. I need to make a phone call. Having given 20 minutes of your life to this week's episode, you now must leave. Please continue talking about news. If you could refrain from talking about anything I might be interested in, that would be great. I'll be back in a minute. Yeah, there's a lot of leeway there. Yeah, you'll be fine. Bye. All right, Hell's Bells. Yes.

46:13Chris Hewitt:I think we're alone now. What else? What else has been happening? Have you seen that Luca Guadagnino is doing this film, Artificial, which is apparently about AI in some way. No, yes, maybe. Ike Barinholtz apparently is in talks to play Elon Musk. And it's being described as a comedic drama set in the world of artificial intelligence. I don't see how you can do a film set in the world of artificial intelligence right now and not have it have comedic elements. But yeah, it's apparently based around the period when OpenAI CEO Sam Altman was fired and rehired in a couple of days. And I guess that might be Andrew Garfield, who's apparently also cast.

47:01Chris Hewitt:Interesting. But there's also Yura Borisov from Enora and Cooper Koch involved. Helen's wading through the story in real time. Yeah. Well, you know. It's a discovery for her as much as it is for you, the people listening at home. That's interesting. Don't you think? Potentially? Yeah, that's why I read it out. Okay, good. yes well that's all I have to say on that it's interesting and until we know what Ike Barinholtz Ike Barinholtz yeah god yeah I feel like that's not the worst decision in the world it's a considerable upgrade in handsomeness from Musk but what can you do and charisma and intelligence yes but he's very good at playing idiots that is true so he should be fine yeah that should be good should be good alright the sixth Evil Dead movie has started filming.

47:52Oh, are you okay? Are you excited?

47:54Chris Hewitt:I am, as always with these things, cautiously optimistic because this one's not a direct sequel to Evil Dead Rise, Lee Cronin's Evil Dead Rise. He's gone off to make a modern version of The Mummy, which is interesting. And he had, if people listen to the spoiler special I did with him, he had talked about, he had ideas for two more Evil Dead films that would have been sequels to Evil Dead Rise called Evil Dead, I think this is right, Evil Dead Roar and Evil Dead Rome. But they haven't gone in that direction. Rome like Italian or Rome like wandering about? Wandering around. Okay. And this is going to be called Evil Dead Burn and it's directed by Sebastian Fanacek and started filming this week.

48:39Ah.

48:40Chris Hewitt:With a cast, none of whom I think were in the previous movies. That's correct. Hunter Duin, Lucian Buchanan, Suheila Yacoub and Tandy Wright so that's potentially exciting Evil Dead 2 of course the greatest of all movies I loved Evil Dead Rise I thought it was absolutely terrific yeah me too so nasty and gnarly perhaps the one thing it was lacking was the chuckles but it had made a very very corona it had made a very very clear decision to go for that sort of darker, nastier tone of the first movie. Yeah, it takes a very strong stomach to laugh at that one. It does. I'm a little bit bummed that we're not getting any of the, you know, potential sequel angles to that as yet, at least.

49:29And it's been a good couple of years now and I feel like we could have had three already. So I'm a little bit... Just crap them out. Yeah, well, not crap them out, but like, you know, give them to some hungry, inventive young horror makers and just let them go nuts. I just feel like we could have done that. and I'm a bit disappointed that we haven't but I'm sure this will be fun too burn huh? does burning traditionally get rid of the evil in these films? fire doesn't really play a prominent part in any of them

49:58Chris Hewitt:but I imagine I mean you have to dismember them generally speaking the deadites yeah but I don't know who knows who the futtick knows what will happen with this but it is exciting another Evil Dead movie is on the way Hell's Bells! Yes. I've hopefully bought you time. You have. I find that Naomi Aki, who has been fantastic recently in Mickey 17. Fantastic Naomi Aki. Correct. Mickey 17 and also the upcoming Sorry Baby. She is apparently the top choice for the female lead of Clayface, which is the third DC Studios movie after Supergirl. I think we'll be out next and then I think Clayface. So this is the one.

50:39They've cast Tom Reese Harrys already as Clayface and James Watkins is directing, but apparently she is top choice for whatever the lead female role is, which is definitely a thing that I know.

50:51Chris Hewitt:Have they said what character that's going to be? No, I just said female lead. Female lead, that's a strange name for a character, but we shall see what happens with that in Mike Flanagan and James Watkins we trust. Indeed. Oh, hang on. I'm back. You're back. I've returned. I've teleported back in. We should talk about portals. We should shut those portals down. We should talk about portals. I have a question for you. Obviously, I wasn't on the podcast last week because I was in witness protection after saying bad things about Superman. But I wondered whether you guys talked about it. It's absolutely true.

51:21I've been on the run from the DC mob. It's been terrifying. But did you talk about the Superman box office having made all the money in the world last week?

51:27Chris Hewitt:No. It's done extraordinarily well, showing that I think the vast majority of people consistently disagree with me on this particular film. So, you know, that's good. That's a good start for the new DC universe, right? It's done very well, yes. So what's it at? I wouldn't say extraordinarily well. It's done very well domestically, hasn't it? It's less so, I think, international. I think it's been a very strange summer at the box office. I don't think that there's a, apart from Lilo and Stitch, which has made a billion dollars. Stitch on. Yeah. Stuff that they might have been expecting to get close to a billion, like Jurassic World, Rebirth.

52:00Chris Hewitt:It may end up close to there, but I don't know if it's going to, and Superman's not going to, and I don't think Fantastic Four is going to. And then you have other movies like Mission Impossible, The Final Reckoning which is made more money than the last movie but some people will still consider that to be a disappointment because we're in a world now where apparently you make$600 million and that's a disappointment Jesus Christ was happening F1 466 yeah so it's really weird it's just a weird weird time at the box office this year and Superman is doing very very well but you know again I've heard figures bandied around like$700 million is what they need to break even, there's no guarantee they're going to get there.

52:43Chris Hewitt:So it's really interesting. It's likely, I think, at this point, but not certain. Yeah. Yeah, I saw one story saying that James Gunn said there might be a bit of anti-American sentiment involved that he's seen as such an American symbol that there might be a little bit of that. I'm not sure it's that, but I do think there's an anti-superhero and anti-franchise and just anti-new versions of old things feeling around at the moment. So that might be part of it. I was thinking about this we've got what is it a year and a half until Avengers Doomsday we've got a while and what we might get the Spider-Man before them we are getting the Spider-Man before them and how long away is that next July okay so we've got a year we've got a year without any sort of Marvel cinematic installments and they've stopped muddy in the waters or pissing in the pool pissing in the pool yes with spunk they've stopped in the pool with spunk no spunking in the pool it's not a bad thing it's not a bad thing at all and obviously we'll get on to whether or not there will be a palette that is cleansed or has a bad taste in it a little bit later on.

53:43But I do think the superhero fatigue thing is real. And I quite like the idea of just having a bit of a pause. I don't think it's a bad thing at all.

53:52Chris Hewitt:Well, we've got Supergirl coming out next year. That's next year as well. This was the other thing I was thinking. Part of me almost, it's almost a shame that this is when DC is spinning up again. Because it does feel like it's just another wave. And I just think for the sake of the genre, and we all love the superhero genre, I think for the sake of that genre's survival. We do. Not everyone last listens to this does, yeah. But we do. But easing off it, I think, would be to its collective benefit. It's just never going to happen. Feige said this before, hasn't he? It is the kind of rising tide lifts all boats things.

54:22And people didn't necessarily differentiate between the core MCU and the Spunk movies. If there are bad films or everyone's making these films, then the saturation affects everyone. Like, it's not... But ultimately, you take the plug out of a sink

54:34Chris Hewitt:and everything will sink to the bottom. Right. And that's a little bit what's happening as well. It's been interesting watching the way the Thunderbolts, which is, you know, a very, very, very good MCU movie. It is a good film. Has made less money than Captain America Brave New World, which most people consider to be a weaker entry in the MCU. With good reason. It's going to be fascinating to see what Fantastic Four First Steps does. Feige this week has been talking about stuff, and he has said, look, we've made 100 hours of content across movies in Disney Plus since Avengers Endgame, and it should have been 50.

55:07Chris Hewitt:so I think now they are recognizing that Timmy failure mistakes were made and and they're hoping to reset and and plow forward in a new direction yeah but you know I do think that a little bit of in fact maybe even a lot of audience goodwill has been burned a little bit over the last couple of years can they get it back I don't know we shall see we shall see and I I just don't think this is as simple as superhero fatigue and I think all the people who are calling it that or kind of kidding themselves. I think that superhero movies... They've wanted superhero, but they've manifested it for a while.

55:45Yeah, there's been the people who have been manifesting superhero fatigue for sure and who just don't like the genre and don't like how well it's doing and just are tired of it themselves. They've massively overestimated how many of these films there are. Now, that is partly because they get all of the advertising bucks, don't get me wrong, that they are the ones we see on the buses for months and that's why they feel much more omnipresent than they necessarily have been in terms of sheer numbers. Again, if you compare them to like Westerns in the 50s, there are basically no superhero movies. But they feel omnipresent.

56:14And the reason that they feel omnipresent is partly the advertising, but it's also because the problem is more general. The problem is franchise fatigue. And we are getting starved of well-supported, studio-supported original movies. And I think there has been a fear of those because, yes, some have failed. Some are going to fail, guys. That's going to happen. But because studios have this current belief that everything has to, and it's because they're so expensive, but they think everything has to and must make massive, massive amounts of money. And if it doesn't, it's a massive failure. It is killing cinema.

56:52Chris Hewitt:They figured out, or they decided, that spending$200 million on a movie that can make a billion dollars was a better bet than spending$200 million on four movies that cost$50 million that might in the end just make 300, 400 million dollars in total. You can kind of see why they did that. There is an economic theory behind that. Of course. Yeah, I did some reading on this for the book and there has been, that was the kind of Alan Horn model. Which book? You've got so many. Sorry, this was back when I did Women vs. Hollywood. Something I got into, but Alan Horn, when he was at Warner Brothers and then at Disney, basically brought this model with him, which was this tentpole model.

57:29And it's happening in music as well, where it is, you know, a tiny percentage of the movies and the music releases, in that case, make the vast majority of the money. So you double down on spending for those and make them make even more of the money and you make more doing that than you do by making like 10 reasonably budgeted films is the theory. It has held true for a couple of decades, but I do think it's now killing the golden goose. So anyway, I've talked about this.

57:58Chris Hewitt:The budgets are getting out of hand as well. The budgets are getting crazy. The budgets are crazy. So a tight end of the belt and a bit of re-evaluation seems to be happening. And one of the things that Feige confirmed this week was that Jake Schreier is going to direct the X-Men movie. Now that's interesting because Jake Schreier did a very good job on Thunderbolts. But equally, Thunderbolts did not do that well at the box office in terms of its comparison to previous Marvel movies. and you could even make an argument that it will lose money. Ordinarily, you'd expect then that director to be shunted off to movie jail and never be handed the keys to the kingdom again, but he hasn't.

58:39Chris Hewitt:Good. Yeah, it's quite nice. No, I think it's good. A recognition of the quality of the film over his performance at the box office, which I think Kevin Feige has referenced, the fact that there are factors there that are beyond the creative control, like that these characters largely came from TV, that people weren't invested in these characters enough. I think all of that is fair comment. It is a good film. It does exactly what it needs to do. I think he did a really good job. So I have no... And I love the X-Men, but I have absolutely no problem with it. And he handled dysfunctional ensemble really well.

59:06What else do you want an X-Men director to have to prove? That seems like a good thing. I am surprised that we... I did think if they did do a launch at Comic-Con, we'd get an X-Men lineup reveal, maybe, potentially. So that's a bit of a shame. Maybe we'll get that in the future anyway. They might be wary of overpromising. Although he did, I mean, Kevin Feige did also say that there is still a Blade movie with Mahershala Ali on the cards. Wow. I've only ever been one Blade. I've only ever going to be one Blade.

59:40Chris Hewitt:Yeah, we shall see. This part of me would just love if Marvel did a Comic-Con presentation every year and just kept bringing out Mahershala Ali and saying, we're going to be making Blade any second now. and it's like 30 years time. And this aged, wizened old man is wheeled. I end the day, Walker.

1:00:04Chris Hewitt:There's worse things out tonight than vampires. All my teeth have fallen out. Some motherfuckers are always trying to ice skate uphill very slowly. Why the English? I don't know. Also, why did he become Ian McKellen there? It's really hard to say. Some motherfuckers are always trying to ice skate uphill. You want to admit All right. Here's the view to Charles, not them. They no longer matter. They wish to kill us. You've all discussed Predator Badlands. No, we haven't. No, we were waiting for you. Oh, bless you, Yorley. What did you think of it? Because it's, I don't know what I was expecting, but it wasn't that.

1:00:39It's more Wayland Yutani-y than I expected. So this is a new trailer. New trailer, yes. For Dan, Mark and Bogues. Yes. Predator Badlands, which front and centers as an adolescent, I want to say, predator on his first hunt, and has L. Fanning as a synthetic, a Weyland-Yutani synthetic, essentially helping him on this hunt. But he does appear to be the central protagonist of this film. Which I, I mean, obviously we'd heard rumors of, but I was maybe unprepared for quite how it would be executed. I'm fascinated by it because... is And Prey works really well because it was a reset for Predator. It didn't do anything, I would say, that new.

1:01:22What it did was take it right back to where it began. Different time frame, obviously, but it rekindled that feeling the original Predator had. You can't play that card twice. You can't do that again. So the question was, what is he going to do with this now? Now, I thought the, you know, the Predator animated one, Killer of Killers, I thought that was really fun and again felt very, very different. But this, this is something else entirely and genuinely I think this could either be absolute genius or a very, very noble failure. It could be disastrous, but I'm choosing, hoping, praying that it's the former, that it's going to be fantastic and it'll just be something, again, very fresh, very new that does this franchise, well, kind of both franchises, proud.

1:02:02Chris Hewitt:Yeah, it looks terrific. it looks absolutely blinding I'm hoping it's as good as Predator 2 I mean Prey was great Prey was great Prey was terrific and this looks like a much much bigger canvas and Elle Fanning looks like she's having the time of her life in this thing well half of her is she seems to spend half the movie in a state of disembowl but that's kind of interesting I'm intrigued to see how this all links up and how they're going to fit this into the mythology of both. That's the only thing that worries me slightly, is the need to kind of jigsaw piece it into this larger picture, which I almost think could be to its detriment.

1:02:45I think keep it like a very tense, edge of your seat thriller. Don't worry too much about how it fits into the larger mythology. I don't think that's as important. There's some very cool beasties in it, which I'm excited to see on the big screen.

1:02:59Chris Hewitt:Badlands looks like Goodlands. very very good indeed you know what we're over a century now into the existence of cinema and to my knowledge there's never been a good movie called Badlands so finally finally a good movie called Badlands true story yeah okay well that was an exciting trip down movie news lane lane boulevard boulevard is that work it's like muse movie news muse that's where I live six miles away from movie news he muses on the movie news in his muse that's right yeah with his muse with my muse yes with my muse I muse upon movie news do you like to take a snooze with your movie news muse while you're in your muse on movie news muse I can't even begin to pause that sentence okay are you faintly amused by your muse on movie news muse while you're musing with your muse on movie news muse okay that's quite impressive gibberish but I'm quite impressed genuinely quite impressed by that I can barely form an actual sentence involving my own name so that's pretty good can you believe you weren't named in time's 100 greatest podcasts no I can't it makes no sense they've made a powerful enemy of us on this day hey come and see us live tickets are still available for people to come and see us live Saturday September 13th King's Place is the venue as part of the London Podcast Festival it's going to be an absolute blast.

1:04:29Chris Hewitt:We're going to have a whale of a time. It's not going to be just this. It's going to be other stuff. It's going to be like kind of an evening with the Empire podcast type thing. It's going to be tongue twisters. There may be a trip to a certain mountain. I don't know. Oh, good lord. I'm just thinking out loud. I see what's happening. Who knows? Kingsplace.co.uk to buy your tickets for that. And Jimbo, two weeks to go to Pilot? Two weeks to go to Pilot 350. Two weeks. Two weeks. Which is on the 8th, Friday the 8th of August. There's a really two weeks. The arson seats left and we have announced our guest because we're actually going to be joined on the show as a member of the team by Russell T.

1:05:07Davis. I can't make it. Oh. Russell T. Davis. The Time Lord himself is going to be joining us.

1:05:11Chris Hewitt:So Boyd's gone to his... That's it. Boyd's opened up the Rolodex. But it's very exciting. It's very exciting. I couldn't be more excited to have Russell on because he's fantastic. So really looking forward to that. It's going to be fun. RTD. The Notorious RTD. The Notorious RTD exciting stuff kingsplace.co.uk to buy tickets to both Pilot 350 and our live show on September 13th which will not be available as a podcast so if you want to experience it you've got to either be in the room or see it in streaming and for it to be available as a streaming thing well we've got to sell a few more tickets you've got to be in the room where it happens precisely but anyway shall we have a movie question guest man?

1:05:51please

1:05:55Chris Hewitt:Sam Rockwell? brilliant Sam Rockwell returns this week dances dances back onto the podcast does he dance in this film? probably I don't know I don't remember but he a couple of years ago he foist Mr. Wolf who is the head of a pack of animal criminals in an animated comedy called The Bad Guys which was a lot of fun and did very well despite being released in the middle of a pandemic and well enough for there to be a big old sequel slap bang in the middle of the summer season and he is back with his voice cast buddies, Craig Robinson and Aquafina and Mark Maron and Anthony Ramos. They're all in it.

1:06:33Chris Hewitt:Sazie Beetz. She's in it as well. Very exciting. Buttressed, shall I say, by the likes of Natasha Lyonne. Daniel Brooks. Daniel Brooks and Maria Bakalava. And it's a caper and a comedy and a hoot and a holler and a hootenanny and all sorts of stuff. And I had a lot of fun talking to Sam Rockwell last night. He was in LA. I was in London. He was wearing sunglasses. Did it throw me? You're about to find out. Here's Sam Rockwell. Enjoy. Hey, man. How's it going? I'm good. How are you? Nice to see you again. What's happening? Oh, not a lot. What about yourself? Just the usual. Plug in away. Just the usual.

1:07:12Yeah. If I put these on, it's only because the lights are very bright here. I hope that's...

1:07:16Chris Hewitt:No, it's cool. I think you might be the first person I've ever interviewed wearing sunglasses. Genuinely, like, indoors. I don't want you to see the windows to my soul Because that's what this interview is It's going to be a hard hitting investigative Yes exactly We're both going to learn a little bit about each other at the end of this

1:07:42Chris Hewitt:But yes I know you've just done some interviews with Craig So is this a day like this because I imagine you don't get a chance to really hang out or even meet your co-stars? Well, I'm a big fan of Craig's, and I didn't really get to work with him on the two movies, so it's nice to spend some time with him. Yeah. Yeah. Is that a weird situation, though, when you've effectively done a movie with someone, and then you don't actually meet them until the junket? It is. It's strange, you know? I've met Craig a couple times here and there. We have mutual friends, but yeah, it's fun. You know, it's just fun to be with somebody who's like that, who's very funny.

1:08:25It breaks it up.

1:08:27Chris Hewitt:So how does it work when you're recording lines or something like this? Do you record your lines first, and then are your lines piped into other people? It's a little bit of both. Yeah. It's a little bit of both. You record the lines. There's another temp cartoon, sort of like stick figure, moving stick figures. and then it gets more sophisticated and then you go back and at a certain point it's sort of set and then you can't really improvise and you have to be you have to sort of keep it as is but for a while you can sort of mess around with it. Because you're no stranger Sam to animation, to lending your voice to animation so is there a Sam Rockwell technique have you got it down pat by now?

1:09:09Well I think that the technique is really just kind of keep it loose and try to be truthful in the midst of trying to be give everybody what they need in a kind of result-oriented fashion. You're trying to come up with a lot of energy. You're isolated in a booth. Sometimes you don't have the other actor and so you're trying to create something that's honest and it can be challenging.

1:09:41Chris Hewitt:When you're going into that booth, when you take on something Are you thinking about great animated vocal performances that you're not trying to emulate necessarily, but trying to get into the same kind of sphere as? I do have, you know, some favorites. The Disney Robin Hood has some of my favorite voices. Really? Some of the Ralph Bocce stuff, American Pop, Heavy Metal was a cartoon that I loved. yeah you know Looney Tunes oh man you know Popeye yeah so yeah I definitely grew up on that stuff and you know as a lot of us did and so there's a lot of Canadian animators like the animated Saturday morning cartoon called Cops that's really fun Thunder Cats you know so something like this is like a big blend Mr.

1:10:41Chris Hewitt:Wolf is a big blend of all of those guys Space Ghost is one of the greats. You are dropping some absolute gems here sir But yeah the Disney Robin Hood is one of my favourites I think. Well the Disney Robin Hood is very interesting because I don't know if you're aware of this Sam but a lot of people find the Disney Robin Hood quite sexy and it's my understanding It is quite sexy yeah. Absolutely It's my understanding. I don't personally find Mr. Wolf sexy but it's my understanding that some people do this film is packed full of sexy animated animals, if that's your bag. Hey, nothing wrong with that bag.

1:11:20Chris Hewitt:That's a solid bag. Yeah, yeah. You are a stranger, weirdly enough, to sequels. Now, you've been in sequels, but not necessarily the originals. That's right. This is technically your first proper sequel. That's right. Yeah. That's a good point. So going into this, Was that a challenge or is it something you just pick up right away? It was a challenge. It's always a challenge to do voice work in an animated thing. This has been one of my favorites. F is for Family probably being the other one. It was really fun to do, you know. Netflix with Bill Burr and everybody and Justin Long. That was really fun.

1:12:02Chris Hewitt:Yeah, and that's a series as well. That's a series, kind of rated R. Yes. Really fun, really fun character. really fun character but I'm guessing you weren't obviously this isn't rated R you weren't able to cut loose on this one I would do my version my rated R version then we'd have to tone it down that was sort of a way of finding stuff yeah but he has an interesting dilemma in this one Mr. Wolf because after the offense of the last movie he's effectively asking people to give them a chance and to give them a job and is that something that you could relate to i guess going back to the early days of your career sure sure i worked in restaurants and delivered burritos on a bicycle and you know did things like that um i worked for a private investigator for a while uh who didn't pay me and then i i yeah i did a lot of odds and ends TV commercials and extra work and stuff like that.

1:13:06Studied acting, yeah.

1:13:08Chris Hewitt:And were you thinking, this isn't going to happen? I'm not going to get my break. I'm not going to make it. Or were you just relentless in your pursuit? I didn't really have a plan B. So it would have been rough. What about the private investigating? That sounds pretty interesting. No, I wouldn't have been too good at that, I don't think. What were you doing? It was kind of boring. Yeah? Was it just like just listening to transcripts of conversations, things like that? Not even that exciting. What were you doing? Was it just light admin? Well, we did follow someone who was having an affair. But then also there was things like going to the library and researching real estate or going to a house and taking a picture of a thing on a house.

1:13:53You know, like just random weird stuff. Okay. More like an intern, an assistant to a private investigator. I wasn't the actual you know I wasn't the what do they call it yeah

1:14:06Chris Hewitt:the actual private eye yeah I wasn't the main guy you weren't the main guy but maybe after what six months or a year you might have become the main guy which is I don't think so I think it would have taken longer I was a kid yeah there was a guy in my acting class who was doing it he got me into it yeah but then you got you were getting gigs you were getting jobs at the time so people were giving you where people were giving you chances What was the first thing for you that really clicked? The first thing for me was probably, well, Box of Moonlight was the first one where I got some attention at Sundance and stuff.

1:14:39And then Jerry and Tom, Lawn Dog, Safe Men. And then eventually Green Mile and Galaxy Quest were the first studio movies I did. And those were the first bigger studio films that I did, yeah.

1:14:52Chris Hewitt:But despite all that, despite the career you've had over the years, no sequels apart from Iron Man 2 and Trolls World Tour. Is this something that just never quite happened, Sam? Or are you, in some ways, are sequels anathema to you? Have you taken a stance against them until now, of course? No, I have nothing against sequels. I love sequels. Godfather 2, you know, Aliens. I love a good sequel. I just haven't been fortunate enough to catch on with one. What stands out for you in a sequel? What are you looking for in a sequel? Well, you have to change it up a little bit, right? You have to make it like a different, you know, Aliens is almost, it's a different genre to the original Alien.

1:15:41Yeah. You know, you could say the same about Godfather 2. You know, there's like flashbacks in it with De Niro. It's a different kind of narrative. Yeah. So I think they shake it up a little.

1:15:52Chris Hewitt:And with this one, I mean, this one's very, it's unashamed in that first, what the opening credits say exactly what the movie is. And it's a blast. They says, this is a caper. That's right. Were you looking for, you know, just that sense of freeform fun? Yeah, I was. I mean, you're always looking for fun. You know, it's a good time, you know. I mean, it's a great group of people. The cast is really hilarious. It's really fun people. I've known some of these, like Natasha I've known forever. Yeah. It's really fun. And I worked with Zazie recently on another film, a Gore Verbinski film in South Africa.

1:16:33Chris Hewitt:Yeah. And that was really fun. So, yeah, it's good, you know. Really good actors. And then you get to see the film. And of course, this is the interesting thing about doing it this way is that you don't have, I guess, you don't really know what decisions or choices they've made. And they have no idea of the choices you've made as well. Yeah, they bring you in on it later on. I got to work with Danielle. She was lovely. I really liked working with her. Colin Jost did a little thing in it. It was fun, you know. Okay, so he came in and he was in the booth with you for a little bit. Yeah. Yeah, he actually did a punch-up on a scene I did with Danielle, and it was really helpful.

1:17:12Very funny.

1:17:14Chris Hewitt:Amazing. Very funny guy. I was blown away, actually, when I saw the final screening, the final cut. The stuff in space, in particular, is very impressive, yeah. Sam, you're no stranger to space, either. That's right. Indeed. Galaxy Quest, Moon. Yeah. There's the pattern here, the Sam Rockwell pattern. Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy. I'm going to let you go in a second. But what is a Sam Rockwell film that hasn't had a sequel that you would like to see a sequel to and it doesn't have to star you? Probably one where my character dies and then he gets brought back to life.

1:18:01Like snow angels.

1:18:05no I'm kidding of course that movie you don't want a sequel to that I don't know what about what do you think I don't know that would be interesting

1:18:15Chris Hewitt:well I mean people have been agitating for a moon sequel for years right oh yeah that would be fun I would do that I mean you know Lawn Dogs would be a good sequel I think Box of Moonlight would have a good sequel maybe yeah that would be cracking That'd be good. That would be cool, yeah. Could I interest you in a Galaxy Quest 2? Listen, I'm in. I'm waiting for the call, man. We almost did that. And then the late, great Alan Rickman passed away. That would be tough to replace. You'd have to figure that out. Absolutely. That's a tough act. Helen Mirum or somebody. You'd have to go Helen Mirum or Chris Walken or something.

1:18:56You'd have to go a very different way.

1:18:57Chris Hewitt:Can I interest you, sir, in four billboards outside Ebbing, Missouri? Whoa, whoa. What happens there? I don't know. Wow. Me and Fran get married or something. It's completely different show. Have kids. Yeah. It's a war movie. Okay. Let's think on that. All right. We'll think on it. All right. I asked Martin about it. Yeah. All right. Next time we speak, you'll have an answer for me on that one. Okay. All right. Sam, it's always a pleasure, sir. Thanks very much indeed. Thanks a lot. Nice to see you. Okay, that was Sam Rockwell talking about The Bad Guys 2. And talking about The Bad Guys 2 leads us to the movie reviews section.

1:19:38Chris Hewitt:We'll just get into our car and drive to movie reviews muse, which is just next to movie news muse. Oh my God.

1:19:50Chris Hewitt:And there's a lot of stuff to talk about this week. One of which is not Happy Gilmore 2. No, Netflix have elected not to show that to critics because they are worried that plot points and spoilers may get out for, again, and I cannot stress this enough, Happy Gilmore 2. Have some respect. He plays some golf. Yes. You of all people, Chris, should understand. I think when it comes to a comedy, the plot is not important. And, I mean, also, if you're worried about spoilers, just say, hey guys, please don't spoil the film for other people. Yeah, but then they show it to dreadful influencers and things like that.

1:20:29I mean, a choice would be not to do that. I'm just saying, choices exist. Anyway, so maybe if we're really organised, we'll get online tomorrow morning and watch it together.

1:20:38Chris Hewitt:I don't think that's going to happen. No, I don't either. But if we don't do that, then we will review Happy Gilmore 2 on next week's show. But this is something that I want to talk about. Very, very quickly, before we get into the films we can talk about. comedy on the big screen has been very, very neglected over the last few years. Next week, we have The Naked Gun and there's a lot riding in that movie. And I think there's a huge appetite. I sense anyway, a huge appetite for people to sit in a room again and have a great big old laugh at something uproariously silly that doesn't have any high pretensions whatsoever and is there just as a gag vehicle.

1:21:19Chris Hewitt:With that in mind, I know Netflix are Netflix and they do what they do and why I know why they do what they do. I genuinely think had they released Happy Gilmore 2 in cinemas next week, we could be looking at at least a 70 million dollar opening weekend because the first Happy Gilmore is Beloved. Beloved. Might be completely wrong about that, but I sense out there there's a huge, huge appetite from comedy fans for this movie and also just to see a fucking comedy on the big screen again. And hopefully that means Naked Gum will do well and then I will lead to loads more comedies being made for the big screen.

1:22:00Chris Hewitt:But it just frustrates me that Happy Gilmore 2 is not going to be seen on the big screen. I am genuinely hopeful and optimistic for this movie. I mean, it's a sequel to one of the early funny ones, so I'm hopeful. Yeah, absolutely. So, fingers crossed. We'll be back next week or maybe tomorrow, but I've looked at my schedule. So next week with our review of Happy Gilmore 2. So where should we start? Shall we do Bad Guys 2 and get that out of the way and then James will remain engaged? We have to give proper care and attention to the Bad Guys 2. No, but not to get it out of the way. It's a film I really enjoyed.

1:22:37We had fun. We saw it together. We did, yes. But I'm just thinking in terms of James' attention span. He may doze off. Hey, I resemble that remark.

1:22:46Chris Hewitt:That salad is working his magic on him right now. I was musing about movie news. Dear Lord. All right, Hells Bells, Bad Guys 2. Bad Guys 2, yes. So this is directed by Pierre Perifel with a co-direction by J.P. Sands. Easy for you to say. Not really. Mr. Wolf is Sam Rockwell, Mr. Snake, Mark Maron, Mr. Shark, Craig Robinson, Mr. Piranha, Anthony Ramos, and good luck to you if you've spotted his voice it took me the entire film. Awkwafina is Ms. Tarantula and they are the bad guys and they went straight at the end of the last film but they are haunted by their criminal pasts and struggling to land jobs because obviously nobody trusts them because they were bad guys for so long.

1:23:30So after a little bit of a flashback to remind us that they used to be bad guys and they used to do cons and heists and, you know, cat burglary and stuff, then we find them struggling in the present day. And what's worse, some bad people are mimicking their old MOs to cover up a new series of crimes. They have to work with the police to try and solve these crimes and clear their names and hopefully become at least enough of a hero that someone will give them a day job. That's kind of the aim in the film. And of course, it doesn't become quite as easy as that because these new bad guys are quite, quite bad.

1:24:04And they're led by Kitty Cat, voiced by Danielle Brooks. So yeah, they've got to figure stuff out, solve some very, very obvious, if I'm honest, twists and turns. Hey. No, I mean, like, there's one character and you're like, that person's definitely going to be bad. And then they are, you know? But at the same time, I had so much fun with this. The funny bits are genuinely funny. The animation style is colourful and poppy. It has a little bit of a Spider-verse-iness to it, but it's not just aping Spider-verse. It's just got its own kind of little thing. The character design is cool. I really enjoy them all.

1:24:42They're just nice to look at. If you're looking for a sort of, you know, replacement for Disney's Robin Hood and kind of the sexy wolf kind of stakes, you know, this guy will do it for you. I just feel like they're a good bunch of people to hang out with. And they're a lot of fun. And the only people I wouldn't recommend this film to, and I say this with all sincerity, are physicists. There is a scene in this film that involves a chase and involves a rocket. And I would implore you, if you are serious about the study of physics, not to watch that scene. It will really upset you. Even for an animation, I think it's a lot.

1:25:21Chris Hewitt:What if this inspires a generation of new scientists? What if it does? Yeah, I'm more worried it'll traumatize the existing generation, if I'm honest. But look, I had an absolute blast. I thought it was really funny. you know there are jokes for the growing ups and they're not just pop culture references but there are pop culture references as well but there's just a kind of zippiness and an edge and a wit to it that I really appreciated but I did also laugh uproariously at the fart jokes so there's a great fart joke it reminded me a little bit not quite as great and not quite as gag heavy or relentless in this pacing as Madagascar 3 which which I kind of love but yeah I had a very very good time with it I enjoyed the first one as well Disco Afro yes I enjoyed the first one as well I had a good time with the first one yeah the first one was fun I think this one from memory is more fun oh interesting I liked the first one I thought it was good I mean it was pitched as animated child friendly Tarantino I was like do you know what that's not that that far from the mark yeah it's not it's not not yeah it's not not Tarantino yeah it's fiction yeah all good I like that literally reservoir dogs let me see what else no okay we're done the hatefully the not very hateful six kill bull kill kill kill kill gerbil kill gerbil he's a hamster actually but you know can we talk about the fact that every animal in this movie is deeply sexy I mean I feel like I already touched on that with the whole Robin Hood comparison.

1:27:03Yeah. It's quite disturbing, actually, isn't it?

1:27:05Chris Hewitt:It is really disturbing. Yeah. I mean, yeah, Mr. Wolf and the lady Foxy. Which is the Zazie Beetz character we should mention. Yes. I mean, they're both like smoking hot. Smoking hot. Kitty Kat has been hitting the gym like you wouldn't believe. Oh my God. And Mark Maron's snake and Natasha Lyonne's character have a very steamy relationship which makes 50 Shades of Grey look like you know Play School wow yeah and also like Mr. Snake keeps stripping to show off his it's not a six pack I don't know 64 pack or something because he's a snake because they just keep going I mean he's kind of already indecent so well you know he's hench thick and swole a hench man but a snake but a snake a hench snake hench snake and so I honestly I had passed out halfway through this movie I had to revive him Not from exertions, but just out of shock of what I was saying.

1:28:06Chris Hewitt:I couldn't believe how sexy these animals were. Very sexy animals. So our official Empire reviewer was perhaps not as taken by the film's sheer unrelenting sexiness as I was. And they gave it just three stars. Three stars in for the bad guys too. Out in cinemas this weekend, or you can just look for it next week on Pornhub. Oh, no. Next up, Fantastic Four First Steps. Jimbo, tell us about this. This is the latest, and let's be honest, last for a while installment in the MCU, but this is Matt Shackman's Fantastic Four First Steps. And this takes place on Earth 828. An Earth that, as I understand it, is kind of in its present day, but its present day looks like our 1960s, broadly speaking.

1:28:59But cooler. But cooler. It's a sort of retro-futurist, 1960s, feels like a theme park, it's beautiful. And in this world, there's not an abundance of superheroes as they are on our Earth. There is one group of superheroes, the first family, the Fantastic Four, who are, lest we forget, Sue Storm, a.k.a. See-Through Girl, played by Vanessa Kirby. Oh, boy. Mr. Fantastic, a.k.a. Bendy Stretcheroonie, played by Pedro Pascal.

1:29:27Chris Hewitt:Yeah. Rock Body, The Thing, played by Eben Moss Bagrag. Yes. And Johnny Storm, The Human Torch, a.k.a. Flame Boy. And they, we don't get to see their origin story in this. Played by Joseph Quinn, that's right. We don't get to see their origin story, but we do, because it's a series of flashbacks which take place in a news report, so it actually deals with it quite well. So we're not sort of laden down with the whole, they go into space, they get bombarded with cosmic rays, we kind of get it all in praise. And very smartly, we see them fighting a variety of supervillains also in these kind of news reports.

1:29:57which sets the scene for who they are and what they do before sort of laying the canvas for the big bad, which in this case is Finchie from The Office, a.k.a. Ralph Ineson, who plays Galactus. He hungers. And of course his Herald, The Silver Surfer, played here by Julia Garner. It's a big galactic threat. This is not what I would describe as a big galactic film, although it is galactic. It's, I would argue, the most accessible MCU movie they have ever made. I think that's true. You don't have to have seen anything else. And you don't have to give a shit about where it's going. It's completely standalone.

1:30:33It's also quite simple. It's quite easy to follow. It's quite light. You could argue it's slightly slight, honestly, but I actually think it works really well. I'm not saying that it skews Young. I think it's very broad in its appeal. Like, it's all age groups. I think there's something in there for you here. I also really like what they did with The Fantastic Four. I mean, what Josh Trank did with them was less good. I mean, that was quite dark. But what Tim's story did with them was, I guess, the closest in tone, in that it was a kind of fizz-pop bubblegum version of this family. But they sort of lapsed into those archetypal tropes where Johnny Storm is this sort of like cocksure ladies' man, and the thing is full of self-loathing and misery and depression.

1:31:12And I like that that's not what these characters are. They're all just lovely. They're all lovely people. The familial bonds are delightful. The whole thing feels incredibly optimistic, and just fun and playful and just delightful. There's a wholesomeness to this movie that I think plays to its strengths, but also feels a little bit like what we really need in 2025. Now, honestly, this film is not what I wanted. It genuinely isn't. This is not what I wanted from this. I wanted something tied into the larger mythology. I wanted this to have all its tendrils going into Avengers Doomsday. I wanted it to set the stage for a big MCU canvas.

1:31:47But I actually think what it delivered is something smarter, which is something that feels of a piece with the MCU, but also distinct. It feels like its own thing. There's nothing else in the MCU that feels anything like it. And part of that is this 60s setting. And I think I've mentioned on the podcast before, I don't love the Fantastic Four as a group in the comics. I find them quite twee and a bit stupid. But... They speak very highly of you. I'm sure they do. But genuinely, and I don't think they would have lent themselves to... Certainly the way we understand, certainly the way they appear in this film, to the broader MCU timeline as we understand it.

1:32:21I think putting it in this alternate Earth, putting it in this very cutesy sweet 60s setting where everyone behaves in a really heightened sort of like it's a wonderful lifey kind of way works brilliantly and you buy it 100 % and I think by the end of this film you know them so well and you like them so much that then if you transplant them as obviously will happen at some point at some point then they'll fit in fine so actually I think there's a lot of genius going on here even if it's not what I would have chosen yeah I would agree with that I think it's not that there's no conflict between them.

1:32:55It's not that they're twee. Like you say, they do kind of butt up against each other and tease each other and get frustrated and cross and have mild arguments. But it's done from a place of love. It's a family who are having these mild disagreements. It's not serious stuff. And what I think is really interesting about this film is that it leans less into their superpowers, their primary superpowers, and much more into their secondary characteristics. So it's not so much about the fact that Reed can stretch really far. It's about Reed is very, very, very smart. And socially awkward. I mean, he's very kind of like autism may be coded in this movie, I think.

1:33:34And it's a brilliant characterization, which I loved. But also like, and he's basically, he's falling apart at the seams when we meet him. Because as you've seen, if you've seen the trailers, if you've seen any of the footage that's out there, they are about to have their first child, he and Sue Storm. and, you know, he's kind of spiraling. He's like, I have to keep this child safe. How do we do that? Is this child going to be okay? Given that we got superpowers, what's going to happen? And I think that's a really, really interesting place to have your big hero of your movie from the start. I also love like Sue Storm, who can be and has been totally forgotten in some of these movies, looking particularly at the Josh Trank, in this case really is the heart of the team and really is, and again, secondary characteristics, not just about the shields and the invisibility and all of that.

1:34:17It's about the fact that she is the diplomat. She is the one who can bring everybody together. She is the one who can literally go to a civilization of mole men and sign a treaty with them. And I think that's so interesting as well. You know, the same with Johnny, the same with Ben. It's not leaning into their superpowers. It's leaning into them as people. And I think that's why you end up with this incredible warm glow towards all of them that certainly the Josh Trank film didn't do. And to be honest, the Tim Story one came closer, but didn't do to this extent. So I really enjoyed them just as a team, as a family, as a group of people to hang out with.

1:34:55As you said, the aesthetic, the sort of 60s futurism is just cool and fun and different. This is, at this point, unconnected to any other Marvel history. You don't have to do any research. You don't have to know anything going in. This is a really good intro for little kids or your parents who are sick of the whole thing. you know they could enjoy this as well and it's a good time at the movies it's not all action I think some people have dinged it for not having enough action I think it's got just enough and I think we get not spoiled is not even the word but we just want people complain if there's not enough action they complain there's too much and there isn't there are two major action sequences yeah and that's fine a different type of action I think that we see in a lot of the MCU movies and I think it works really well and it feels quite fresh I also, having come from a place where I couldn't see how Galactus could work on the big screen, I think they did an extraordinary job of being true to that character and making it not seem daft.

1:35:57I really like the Galactus stuff. I thought, you know, this sort of Kaiju-sized energy, this Kaiju-sized enemy works really well. And energy. And energy, indeed.

1:36:08Chris Hewitt:Yeah, I'm a big Galactus boy. I love my Galactus. and I was nervous about how he was going to be depicted on the big screen and I think they absolutely nailed it. I think Galactus' introduction in this movie is one of the best sequences in the MCU. It is genuinely awe-inspiring slash terrifying. You see someone like Reed Richards who maybe has the biggest brain in all the MCU. It just reduced a babbling mess in front of this incredible cosmic entity. I also enjoyed Julia Garner as the Silver Surfer. It's more emotional and earnest, I would say, than I was expecting. I was expecting a great big dollop of glib and some quips.

1:36:53Chris Hewitt:And you get some quips and you get a little bit of glib, but it plays in the last half hour for high emotional stakes. And that's kind of refreshing. For me, Thunderbolts is the best MCU movie of the year, but this is very, very solid. I did think, for me, none of the jokes landed. And I mean none of them. As in a gentle smile, but I didn't think the jokes were... I mean, I don't think they were trying for quippiness, as you said, but they were quite sort of, let's say, let's be charitable and say they were gentle. I think, yeah, gentle is probably right. There's a very good scene between Ben and Reid that I very much enjoyed, the jokes in that.

1:37:32But there's a running gag about clobbering time that I didn't think was funny. No. But I just liked them all. and it's a great it's such a charming Pedro Pascal performance I know that's probably you know tautology of course it's charming they're all charming but this one is a particularly charming Pedro Pascal performance and Vanessa Kirby who is an actress who can be quite icy on the screen I think is so warm and so lovely here it was a real revelation I have issues with like Johnny Storm's hair colour and eye colour but apart from that Joseph Quinn lovely warm period appropriate it was all hitting in the right places.

1:38:10I just think these are good characters to hang out with. And especially coming after Superman, which, okay, not for everybody, but for me was also a very warm-hearted, sincere, cheering film. You know, this is a good summer for sincerity and earnestness, I think, at the movies.

1:38:27Chris Hewitt:I am intrigued and excited to see these characters again. And we have already recorded a spoiler special with a Team Empire discussion about the movie that is available right now in your Sporter Special feed. It's been a pretty fucking good month to be a subscriber to Sporter Specials. It has, and it shall continue, but it's been a very, very good month just in terms of stuff. But what we're doing with Sporter Specials is we've slightly changed the way we're approaching them. So we're trying to be there ready on opening day with the Team Empire take, and then in a week, two weeks, maybe sometimes three weeks, you'll get the filmmaker interview and maybe even a second Team Empire take as well.

1:39:03Chris Hewitt:So it is a good time to be subscribing because you had a lot of stuff in July and you're going to have a lot of stuff in August as well. And then I might die. Oh, well, you did it doing what you loved. Editing podcasts. We're looking into it. So there we go. Anyway, we gave this one four stars. Four stars then for the Fantastic Four First Steps. Join us next week for more film-related fun as we barrel into August and we'll be joined by the director of The Naked Gun the first Naked Gun movie in Donkey's Years Akiva Schaffer one third of The Lonely Island will be on this podcast talking about that and there may be someone else as well because I can never rule that out but anyway until then until we meet again until that auspicious occasion it is goodbye from my two colleagues of such lethal cunning you're still here James right?

1:39:57Chris Hewitt:Yes I am okay good James Dyer bye bye bye Chris Bye, bye, James. I'm snoozing now, not musing. Snooze in your movie news muse. That's right. With your muse. You snooze, you muse. Yeah, are you eating musely in your movie news muse? Oh, stop it. Who eats musely, honestly? It's next to a farm. So you wake up and you're movie news muse, so you're movie news muse, and then you have some movie news muesely. Does he drink booze? I'm going to go and have some movie news booze, yeah. No, relentlessly tickled by lad. It's goodbye from Helen O 'Hara. Toodley. And it's goodbye from me. Thanks for listening.

1:40:30Chris Hewitt:See you next time. Bye bye.