Now It's Time For Halloween (ft. guests Edward Berger, Yorgos Lanthimos, Mary Elizabeth Winstead & Maika Monroe)

30:21Where did you start with Colin after he said yes? What were the first conversations that you had? Oh, we just talked about the performative nature of it and what this guy must be missing inside and what he's lacking. And then we talked a lot about practicalities like costume. Because that's so much, to me, that's much easier than the, I don't want to say the blah, blah of this character comes from, you know. But yes, you have a backstory. He's obviously Irish. He's not from a posh background. He had a lot of lumpy mashed potatoes when he was little. He says that literally in the film. So he has something that he thinks will bring him happiness, rich status, wealth, but he realizes he does not.

31:04So we start. That's all a given, and we talk about that for a little bit. But mostly it's like, what about a mustache? I saw a mustache, and we try on the mustache. We shave it off. we realize actually it's great to keep it, you know, just to play the transformation rather than shave off the transformation. The costume, you know, mannerisms, little things. To me, practical is easier to understand than theoretical sort of, you know, character traits. Those beautiful jackets, I mean, the sort of the red and the green, the gloves, The yellow gloves are just extraordinary. And it's such a beautiful, colorful movie.

31:51But as you say, it's a descent into hell as well. So can you talk about capturing that? And this is a place you hadn't been to before. At what point did you go to Macau? I went about two years before with my cameraman and my producer and sort of looked at it for the first time and was so overwhelmed by the offer, the things that I had to offer. So, I mean, the ballrooms are like 10 times the size than any ballroom that I've ever seen. And, of course, you go like, I want to shoot in here. You have all of that. You have the Eiffel Tower and you have, you know, fake Venice canals and all that stuff.

32:24And you think, oh, this is beautiful. I want to capture all of it. Until you realize at some point, let's focus it. Let's whittle everything away that is unnecessary weight. And you chip away the locations that you might not need. but it lives of the wealth that is there at hand that is there that is being offered to you it's also for me that's also the story it's like Colin Colin's character Doyle has everything that he thinks he needs to have a happy life lobster steak champagne and cake and he eats all of it he wants to devour all of it until he realizes none of it is going to make me happy you know and it's kind of like also the reason, I guess, why we made the movie that, you know, at this time, you know, there's just so much at offer, and none of this really makes us happy.

33:19We're going to have to find it in other things, in ourselves or in love and redemption. And so that's the reason why we made the movie there. And I want to talk about the redemption in a second, without spoiling too much, obviously. But the consumption is really interesting also, Because Colin, I mean, he goes to dark places in this performance and Lord Doyle, if we can call him that, hits rock bottom repeatedly. And just when you think he's hit rock bottom, he manages to find another rock bottom under the rock bottom. There's an extraordinary scene where, in fact, I think we were on set for it.

33:54One of my colleagues was on set for this, where he is just lost in consumption and bitterness and regret and misery. and he has 80 lobsters followed by desserts. And that's just an extraordinary place for Colin to go. Can you talk about working with him on that as a director and watching that as a director? I mean, it was a great scene to read and I knew it was going to be important. I didn't know it was going to be this important until I saw him do it because he went all in. And it was so ugly to see, so disgusting. It should be like a feast, and it's just disgusting. It was like Mr. Creosote from...

34:34Yeah, absolutely. And that's what we talked about during the filming of it. And also, there was a piece of music that kept playing that really annoyed me because, you know, Macau is not the quietest place. And I thought, why the hell can't people shut up for once and not play their stupid music? And I was looking around until I realized, it's Bloody Colin playing it. you know bloody colin to get himself in the mood it was this crazy bach cantata organ piece that went like oh you know completely nuts and uh but i realized it's the perfect soundtrack for the scene yeah and it makes it even more harrowing and so i went and he just listened to it in breaks he was very concentrated very focused only did one take per shot because i knew like he was gonna and I'm like, oh, devour everything, gorge himself to death, and I didn't want that to happen.

35:28And so I went up to him and said, like, what is this? And he told me, he showed me his, I don't think he even spoke, he showed me his iPhone, and I was like, oh, okay, and I put it in the film. It's just like, that's the soundtrack to the movie now, and it's great to see how aligned we were in terms of the type of movie we were making together. As a director, though, there are also moments where he is shaking and shuddering and sweating. He's an amazing, amazing actor, of course. But were you concerned at any point about him, about how far he was pushing himself in that regard? Yeah, I was mostly moved.

36:08I mean, I knew that Colin has it under control. I mean, he pushed himself to places that I think shook him, really, and he sometimes took it home. and probably lay in bed exhausted. By the way, this is all a great privilege to make. Colin knows this, and I know it. But of course he pushes himself and is exhausted because he had a hard day at work. And he's so generous. He gives, gives, gives. Let it be me. Let it be the camera. Let it be to his fellow actors, to the crew. He loves everyone. He gives to everyone. And that is, I think that leaves you, you know, he must have gone home quite often feeling just depleted, you know, just empty because you give, give, give, and at some point you have nothing left to give.

37:00Yeah, absolutely. Do you take it to home as a director? Do you go home at night? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I go home thinking, like, did we do it right? Should we have done it better? Should we have done another one? Should we have done this? You know, what are we going to do tomorrow? Yeah, I take it home. And, I mean, mostly thinking about the implementation rather. But this movie actually was different because you're locked in an air-conditioned hotel for six months, and it's a bit lonely, you know. And you watch this man giving everything. You think about it. Every movie changes you anyway. It's like life experience that you take home and hopefully grow on it rather than let it destroy you.

37:46You weren't in your suite eating lobster and cramming chocolate cake. No, I didn't destroy myself that way. I probably didn't eat anything for the rest of that day. Fair enough. Edward Berger, it's been an absolute pleasure talking to you, sir. Thank you so much. Thanks for your time. Okay, that was Edward Berger. And we will discuss the ballad of a small player later on in the refuse section. Shall we talk about what has happened in the world of movie news over the last eight days? Because we recorded last week's podcast on Wednesday. Said we'd come back in on Friday if anything monumental happened.

38:19And nothing did. And in fact, that seems to have been the running theme through the last week or so. Has anything happened? I don't know about that, man. Oh, hello. I don't know, unless you think that an animated Hello Kitty movie arriving at Warner Brothers is an astonishing world-breaking news. I mean... Arriving in 2028. That thing is going to make so much money. I'm going to say it now, that film is going to make$2 billion. Hello Kitty is going to make$2 billion. I think Hello Kitty is going to make so much money. This seems, I feel like that's on the high side, if I'm honest. But this seems like an interesting one because it may have to address the thing that caused a bit of a schism in the fan community, which is that they announced that officially, apparently, Hello Kitty is a girl who likes cats.

39:05Hello Kitty is not a cat. This absolutely broke my brain when you told me this. What? Apparently, Hello Kitty is a girl who likes cats. But we never see the girl. She looks like a cat. No, I guess those are ears she's wearing. So you're saying the Hello Kitty cat is not a real cat? It's not a cat. It's a girl in a cat costume. It's a human. Yes. So who the fuck is Bad Bats Maru? I'm not even kidding. Is that like a dude who hates penguins? the whole honestly the Hello Kitty cinematic universe has blown my mind and it hasn't even fucking started yet I am so confused what's happening I don't know what to say this is Hello Kitty that's a cat that's a cat apparently that's a human a human dressed as a cat this is this is unless I misunderstood completely this is substance level bullshit is Kitty a furry yes that's what we're saying we're saying Kitty is a furry Kitty is a girl who has some strange kink about cats.

40:05We don't kink shang on the Empire podcast. And Hello Kitty dresses up as cats. How did we find this out? Who outed Kitty for being a cat? Well, Helen came in here with her nonsense theories just spouting them off as fact. Apparently it's according to the creators of Sanrio which is the big company that owns Batsman and Hello Kitty. Batsman is 100 % what the film should be called. Oh, Time ran an article on it in 2014. Yeah. Wow. Where she's described as a little English girl called Kitty White. English? Yeah, Kitty White from outside London. What? Outside London? What's the postcode? But then, they went back on it.

40:44A home county's furry. Wait, I'm just reading that they went back on it and then they said, they never said she was a human. So they described her as a little English girl but didn't describe her as a human. No, I have questions. But basically, it's anthropomorphization was their explanation. Yeah. so she's not she isn't a human but she's not quite a cat either she's like a werecat is she like one of Dr. Moreau's terrible experiments terrible experiments wow I don't know man this is twisted shit is she begging for death is she like kill me please kill me oh Cain that'd be a good death imagine you're just having dinner we're just having a lovely lovely dinner that's not a good death man it's not a good death that's death by indigestion that's just horrible by any measure.

41:33A couple of gathers gone, he'd be right as rain. Yeah, that's how it works. That'd be a good one. All right, so she's going, kill me, kill me, kill me. Is that what the film's going to be? Yes. An hour and a half of this monstrous cat-human brundle-fly monstrosity begging for death. Brundle cat is the next step forward. It's just going to be very, it's going to be very confusing. I just, yeah, they're going to have to get the law in order before they bring this. Law in order. Yeah, I just, I don't know what's up. The power of Christ compels you. The power of Christ compels you. I passed thee out of that cat's body, you freak.

42:08As someone who narrowly avoided seeing Gabby's Dollhouse recently, another story about a girl who wears cat ears. But she's a human. She is a human. She is a human. Although she turns into a cat, I believe. She may be 47 years old now, but she's definitely a human. It's very confusing. Anyway, I'm sure this will be big. I'm sure you're right about that, Beth. I'm not sure you're right about like two billion big. I'll see it. we'll put some money on this right now I don't know Beth sees your 2 billion and raises you another 2 billion she's gone all in I reckon that's a month's salary at Empire ballad of a small player territory well I'm A.

42:45excited about that B. not that bothered or C. couldn't really give a shit which is it? it's really tough to say it's really tough to say if it is that she's a monstrous cat human begging for death then I'm in yeah obviously then you'd be all over it yeah can we talk about the mad duelling Roadhouse movie I was going to say this the Roadhouse Rumble I need an episode of the studio on this yesterday very much so but it's mad isn't it yeah because obviously Doug Liman who did the Roadhouse remake last year but was famously very unhappy very unhappy very unhappy very unhappy because he didn't get the theatrical release that he was promised no so the sequel is currently in development at the moment it's about to happen yeah that's it we're not until that I'm very confused.

43:30Yes. But the sequel to that is about to happen. Yes. Ilya Nashuller. Yeah, Nashuller. But Doug Liman, what he has done is he has snapped up the rights to Roadhouse Dillon. Yes. Which is kind of the sequel spin-off thing to Rowdy Harrington's 1989 film. The Masterpiece. Right, exactly. The Masterpiece. So he now has the rights to an alternate Roadhouse sequel, which theoretically can now compete. So he's working on it with the original screenwriter of Roadhouse. Yeah. There was an original screenwriter on Rottenham's? Apparently, yes. Well, it had to be. A line like, pain don't hurt, that don't write itself.

44:06That's true. That's true. Yeah. Someone had to write that and then lie down. This is absolutely fucking wild. It's fantastic. Clearly, a man you do not cross, Doug Liman. He refused to go to the premiere of this at South by Southwest for all intents and purposes, then flew himself over and sat in the audience and watched it. That is weapons-grade passive aggression, and I'm here for it. I don't think it's even that passive. Yeah, that's amazing. I love it. Did he then stand up and throw paint on the screen? Just slow claps at the end, stood up like... You've done it again, Doug. You've done it again.

44:46This is amazing. So we could have a sequel to the original Roadhouse directed by Doug Liman going up against the sequel to Roadhouse, which was directed by Doug Liman my mind is blown but okay sadly Patrick Swayze is no longer with us I think it's fine that he's not here to see this to be honest yeah well because he was a peace and love kind of guy yeah like Ringo so he tore a man's throat out he did I mean that one time but otherwise he was really a peace and love guy so I feel like he'd be encouraging everyone to just get along yeah yeah yeah okay this is Gyllenhaal's master Clara Do you think Gyllenhaal can be in both?

45:26Can we do this? That would be fantastic. Could you imagine? Can we release them at the same time, like the Beatles movies? Can we do that? Yeah. Yeah? Why not? Apparently anything's going with this franchise, so why not? This is extraordinary. This is one of the most petty things I've ever heard. Oh, it's amazing. He's a messy bitch who lives for drama, and I am here for it. Yes, please. Thank you. Yes. Oh, that's good. I hope there's no more news, because I think we've newsed ourselves out. There's very little. I mentioned earlier that The Adventures of Cliff Booth is apparently heading for summer 2026.

46:03Oh, wait, that's next summer. That's next summer. It's already been shooting, right? It has been shooting, yeah. David Fincher, of course, directing Brad Pitt in that. Oh, he used to go out with Jennifer Jolie. That's right. That still blows my mind. And in more Legends Working Together news is the shocking news that John Williams is going to score Steven Spielberg's next film. What's he going to give it? Five out of ten? Six out of ten? Like 14 out of ten. They're all good boys. They're all good films, Brandt. Except for us. All of them. It's a story. Is it?

46:38What Spielberg death would you like in a Spielberg movie? Yeah. I should clarify. Obviously, death by shock. We mean obviously death. He's just loved being bitten, you fucking kinky motherfucker, you. What the hell? Yeah, yeah. So are we talking quints? Are we talking... I mean, pick one, right? Like, you know, I feel death by great white shark is the Spielberg death of choice. You want to be bitten in twain? Well, no, I'm not saying I want to be. I'm just saying if you had to have a show, Spielberg death. Again, in keeping with my, you know, painless and quick... All painless. All painless. Blaine, predator, yes.

47:16That's pretty painless, actually, when he goes. She ain't got a time to bleed. Then there's the whole being skinned thing. It doesn't look fun. But you're dead by that point. I mean, yeah, it's still unpleasant. Yeah, but not so much for you. Well, yeah, but for everyone around you, I'm trying to be considerate here. Can I have dinosaur on a toilet? Oh. That's a strange order, I've got to be honest. You can go to Nando's and ask for that. Is that the sequel to Hello Kitty? Hello Kitty, goodbye dinosaur on the toilet. So you also want to be bitten in half by... It would be kind of a fun way to go.

47:47I'm thinking about Who would you tell? It would be bragging rights in the afterlife to be fair like what happened I was eaten by a T-Rex like that's that is pretty cool To be fair a lot of people probably would have the same thing I did well I suppose they wouldn't if we're going to be specifically paleolontologically how do you say the word again? Accurate Yeah that accurate then they wouldn't would they? Exactly that's what I'm saying it'd be cool you'd get points with the other undead or just dead I'm saying again painless don't see it coming so there's no dread it would be War of the Worlds.

48:19Death by dread? The early bit where they're being just poof rather than the later bit where they're being like farmed and shit. Okay. My Steven Spielberg movie Death of Choice. You want to die with the grail don't you? You want to be killed by the grail. You would 100 % choose Pauling. The grail or the ark? I don't know. I mean they're all such magical deaths. They're all so wonderful. So either you have the flesh burned off your face and you become some sort of ghoulish skeleton before, I cannot emphasize this enough, exploding, I think that's what happens with the Ark of Covenant does to you.

48:55Then the Holy Grail just makes you age beyond your years. I mean, I already host this podcast, so I know that's like, boom, boom, boom. I don't know. There's got to be a nice death in a Spielberg movie. I feel like there's somebody... Oh yeah, there'll be some pleasant ones, I think. Oh, oh, E.T. oh and then he comes back to life you're trying to cheat like James he comes back to life he comes back to life but he doesn't get bitten by a vampire that's true so he doesn't have a little E.T. Stiffy oh no E.T. no I don't want E.T. Stiffy please do not continue that may be the greatest thing anyone's ever said on the podcast I don't want E.T.

49:38Stiffy please E.T. phone bone E.T. bone home Oh, come on. Here's where I was going with that. Anyway, Helen, what was the news story again? John Williams at the age of, I think, 173 is going to be scoring... Combined age of 173, actually, actually, pretty much, is going to be scoring Seamus Bilberg's next UFO related show. Untitled UFO event movie. Yeah. Yes. It's a 30th collaboration. Aw. Which is really, really fucking sweet. That's a good innings. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Anything else you want to talk about? There were two trailers. Should we talk about those? There were, yeah. We gathered around a computer in the office and we watched two trailers before we came down to do the podcast.

50:24One is for Stranger Things, the brand new Empire cover television show. You can go pick it up. All good and evil news agents, Stranger Things. Season five. This is the first time I've seen any footage from a Stranger Thing. It looked perfectly good. I liked all the 48-year-old children running around. Hobbling around. That was nice. Fighting, I don't know, what seemed to be Iron Maiden's mascot, Eddie? The Vecna. The Vecna. Eddie, of course, died last season. Oh, isn't Eddie in Stranger Things, is there? Yeah. Okay. That was Joseph Quinn. Joseph Quinn died? Oh, my God. No, he's still with us, but Eddie isn't.

51:08All right, this is exciting stuff. so what did you guys who have seen Stranger Things make of this I don't think I'm best placed I haven't seen any of it since the last season which I feel like came out 25 years ago so I I'm it's been 84 years I think it was a good trailer yeah you know it was exciting it almost entirely cut out David Harbour I'd be fascinated to know if he was in it more prior to about a week ago yeah why what's happened did that I don't know nothing much it's fine that man is is not going on that press game. Oh, hey, Lily Allen's new album which has dropped my son. He's been on Spotify recently.

51:45Yes, so he doesn't play a big role. Possibly as a result, Winona Ryder is barely visible. Yeah. But we get a little bit of a glimpse of everybody being, you know, older and scarier and taking the fight to the monsters. Yeah. Oh, that's good. Really pumping up the spectacle. Because it's going to be in cinemas, isn't it? One or two of the episodes? It's the first two. Wow, really? Yeah, which is kind of a bit of an unprecedented thing to do. Yeah. just randomly to put the first two episodes in cinemas. They should do that with Dad's Army. Yes. Naturally cinematic experience. Please do more pilot TV episodes if that's the first TV show that you can think of.

52:23Spot on references. It was either that or Last of the Summer Wine. Yeah. I don't know why I went for that. Last of the Summer Wine is great. Combo Clegg and Foggy. Oh, great. But crap when Seymour turned up. Yeah, he wasn't as good, was he? Which Last of the Summer Wine death would you like? Wow. Death by Nora Batty is what I would say. Death by Runaway Bathtub. That's the way I want to go. Half of my nuts bit off by Laplander. Get in my... Anyway, doesn't matter. Getting caught in the gears of a combine. Ah, this is fun. Anyway, that looks good. Well done, everybody. Frank Darabont's directing a couple of episodes of that.

52:54I believe it's the first time he's directed something since The Mist. About time, then. I mean, you know... We've missed him. We have. He has been missed. The other trailer that came out, and Beth, of course, was so excited about this. given that she's wearing the Scream 3 t-shirt is Scream 7, which is Scream 3 plus Scream 4. 6-7. 6-7. Oh, my God. Yeah, I mean, talk about problematic screams. This one's had quite a turbulent production. But it looks good. Okay. Thanks, Beth. I do, yeah. It's very much like, okay, so we didn't have Niamh Campbell and now we have her back. So we're going to, by the looks of this trailer, center everything around her and her daughter.

53:39Yeah, big new Halloween vibes. Yeah, and going back to the original town. Woodsboro. Woodsboro, yes, I remembered. I'd forgotten temporarily. And it looks kind of, there are some good deaths in here. There's some good creepy, you know, oh no, ghost faces behind you kind of moments. What? So, yeah, he's right there. Oh no! So yeah, it's all good. yeah so this is directed by Kevin Williamson obviously Christopher Landon dropped out after all the hullabaloo over the departure from the film shall we say of Melissa Barrera Jenna Ortega already wasn't signing on for this and it's fair to say there's some skepticism towards this movie this looked like a solid trailer though I just wonder are they just playing the same notes to diminish an effect Maybe so, but, you know, every day is Christmas Eve.

54:35Except for today, which is Halloween. Oh, no.

54:41Now it's time for Halloween, Halloween, Halloween. Now it's time for Halloween Empire Podcast. Just once. All right, should we have another guest? Let's. It is, of course, the great Greek himself, Yorgos Lanthimos, who is the director of this week's Begonia, in which, you'll never guess, he teams up with Emma Stone. for a weird movie. Shut the door. I know. Shut the front up. I have not seen this movie yet. Hells Bells, you have? I have. Can you quickly explain for the listener at home? Yeah. Jesse Plemons believes that aliens live among us. Well, they do. One of them is, wow. He's right. Pharmaceutical company CEO, played by Emma Stone.

55:27Emma Stone. With this knowledge, he decides he's going to kidnap her and lock her up in a basement and shave off her hair because, of course, as we all know, that's how aliens communicate with their mothership and try and get some answers about all of this. All right? Yeah. So I think that's going to go super well and there won't be any complications whatsoever. All right. Sounds good. Okay. So this is a very, very straightforward and short movie, I'm guessing. And we sent along Harry Stainer at the height of the London Film Festival to have a chat with Jorgos Lanthimos about Begonia. Do please enjoy.

55:59We are delighted to be joined on the Empire podcast today by Yorgos Lanthimos, the director of Begonia, which just had its first screening in London last night as part of the London Film Festival. How was the screening last night? How long have you been in London for? Well, I have no idea. The introduction went well, but we went around London and did Q &As in other screenings. I heard it went well. I mean, it's always a pleasure to just, you know, show a film here. London used to be my home for over 10 years. And I work with a lot of people here and still do and do a lot of post-production here.

56:42So I've watched a lot of films, you know, at the festival and BFI in general. And, you know, it feels like, you know, coming home in a way or never having left in a way. So it's always pleasant. So I wanted to start at the very beginning of this project and how it came to you, because I watched Save the Green Planet when I was in uni. And so when I heard this was being remade, I was like, whoa, that's a film I've not thought about in a while. Is it a film that you had seen before it came to you? Or was it a film you were a fan of? Or when you heard about it, was it a completely new project? Yeah, no, I didn't know about the original film.

57:21I hadn't watched it or heard anything about it. So I just blindly received a script from Ari Aster and Lars Knudsen that Will Tracy wrote, and they developed it initially. So it just came to me as, you know, we think that this might be something that you'd be interested in and have a look. And, you know, I read the script and I thought it was amazing. It was entertaining and complex and felt very contemporary and relevant to the state of the world. And actually, as time went by until we made the film, it feels more relevant than ever. So, yeah, I got very excited. And it was actually the first time that I receive a script that I, that I haven't developed, you know, for many years before, you know, reaching a point that I feel confident about.

58:27It's the first time that I go like, I think I want to make this, like it's almost, you know, it's almost there. And I immediately send it to Emma, I actually, and, you know, she felt the same way. so yeah I got involved really quickly I did watch the original film afterwards just to make sure basically that it's not just remaking the same film only in English and I saw how different it was and I saw the reason of the core of the idea why Ari and Lars thought that it might be interesting to bring it to the contemporary world and transport it to America that, you know, says a lot about the world in general.

59:20So, yeah, I got involved really quickly. And then, you know, I worked with Will a little bit just to tweak the script so that it, you know it's it's more um fitting to my sensibility and the vision that i had for the film uh but it was a relatively quick process and uh yeah then just uh got excited to make it well i was actually gonna ask you about that because i think sometimes you've got such a specific style that we've all become so like used to and are fans of and i think when you get this is a writer you've not worked with before was there anything really specific that needed changing in that script when you came on board was there like a certain certain characters like you added or brought in or was it like pretty fully formed and you were like i could see my version of this like straight away you know it was it was pretty fully formed it was just like you know parts here and there that i you know felt that i would do differently and uh we just worked on those i can barely remember what those are anymore because, you know, it becomes, you know, the thing.

1:00:28And I don't remember in detail. I remember that it was important for me to, apart from Jesse and Emma, that I kind of immediately knew that would be great in this. So I sent them the script, like really early on. I knew that I wanted to cast Don to find a non-professional actor, someone who's not experienced or hasn't studied acting in any way. And I often do that in my films. Sometimes it's smaller roles, sometimes it's slightly bigger roles. But this was a very important role, and it's kind of what maintains some kind of balance in the whole film. So even from the way it was initially written, I knew that I wanted to find someone.

1:01:24And, you know, as I was, we worked with Jennifer Venditti, who's really, you know, experienced in doing street casting and finding people that are not professional actors. I started, you know, veering towards the direction of wanting to find someone who was neurodivergent. And specifically, you know, when we found Aiden, who, you know, prefers the term autistic, you know, I just felt immediately that we found, you know, our dawn. And then we just had to go and, you know, tweak the script so that it fits, you know, his language and his, you know, presence in a way. But, you know, the core of the character didn't change.

1:02:16It was just like those tweaks in order for him to be able to be authentic and himself and just enrich the character with his, you know, personality and presence and the way he sees the world and the way he sees the character and the interaction with the other characters. So, you know, it was things like that that, you know, changed some of the elements in the script and the film in the end. well I think especially Aidan and Jesse are phenomenal in the film I think it has like a pairing they just kind of like bounce off each other so well um and I was thinking about like I've been thinking about Teddy and Don like loads afterwards because I was like there is there is a version of this where these two are just kind of crazy nutters who've done this awful thing and what I found is especially as the film went on is how despite what they're doing is inherently very fucked up.

1:03:12I felt really empathetic towards them, and I felt kind of bad for them at points. And I... Was there, like, ever a temptation not to show that side of them, or was it always kind of your intent to be, like, make these, like, both very complicated characters? Yeah, no, I think that's, you know, a testament to a great script, first of all from Will, and then the actors themselves, how they were able to find their truth within the characters and the characters. So you see Don and Teddy and you have a certain kind of idea of what people they are. And it's the same for Michelle, for Emma's character.

1:04:07You see her, you go like, okay, I know what she is and, you know, how she behaves and how she thinks. And the film basically, you know, brings these two extremely different people together and throws them in a room, basically. And it challenges your ideas about, you know, how you think about people in the world. And, you know, and you discover, you know, you know, scene by scene and minute by minute, you know, that there are, you know, many things that you couldn't have imagined. And then many different truths, you know, about those people. And yeah, it challenges your understanding of the situation of the world.

1:04:56And so it was important to not, you know, portray either of the characters, neither of the characters one dimension in a one dimensional way. I mean, we started out like that in order to be able to achieve, you know, all these peeling of layers that you couldn't imagine about these people in the situation. We had a great bit of Eurythmics in Kind of Kindness. And then we have Chaperone and Green Day here in a scene where Green Day is used to fantastic effect. I always like how these song choices almost feel like totally opposite of how dark the films are. And like, what's your influence with that in terms of your song choices?

1:05:44Like what goes through your mind when you're like, this scene needs Green Day? Yeah, I mean, it's a balancing act, basically, because, you know, I think it was in the beginning, you know, when I made films, music was really hard for me to figure out. Like I always felt, and that's why, you know, the first time that I worked with a composer and, you know, for a soundtrack of my films was when I discovered Derskin and we worked together on poor things for this the first time. And I've been working with him ever since. I think music is really, is a really delicate thing in films. Like it can really limit a scene or add these other layers that, you know, open it up and enrich it in many ways.

1:06:35So I always try to like there's an instinctive aspect of it and, you know, what you feel would be right. And then there's, you know, trying it out. So I do that a lot, either on set when I have an idea and I can play on set and see how it feels, or afterwards during editing, I just try different things and see how they affect the scene. and for example Green Day I mean for a long time there was Will had written a different song into the script like very different but it had a function that it didn't serve anymore because we changed things in the script and in the editing things changed and how we shot things changed so at some point it was quite late in the process of editing I just felt like, you know, that song didn't serve its purpose anymore and didn't make any sense.

1:07:40So I just started, you know, listening to music and coming up with ideas that, you know, might create a certain kind of tone that, you know, makes the scene more complex. So that's how I usually do it. And, you know, it's the same with Chaparone. Like it's thinking about the character. again there was a very different song written in the script but when we started discussing with emily about these details i was telling you about before like how she's dressed what cars is driving what music would she listen to like again we'll listen to a lot of you know contemporary music um and you know we loved the song and thought it would be fun to to use it there.

1:08:23So, you know, it's a process in between, you know, logic and, you know, thinking about the characters and then, you know, instinctively, you know, listening to stuff and trying them on and see what fits. Was there ever been in any of these scenarios a song that you really wanted to use and not been able to? um in the old days for sure uh i don't really remember anymore but uh you know we had no money to even make the film so it was really difficult to get stuff that we liked the last few years i don't i don't think we've encountered that uh issue to be honest shows you again it's all about money yeah and i believe that is all we have time for today so thank you so much for joining me it's It's been lovely chatting to you.

1:09:13Thanks for joining us on the Empire Podcast. Thank you. Thank you very much. Take care. Okay, that was Jorgos Lathimos talking about Begonia. We will be reviewing it later on in the review section because right now it is time to talk about the movies that are out this week in the multiplex or indeed on your sofa plex. The first film is a film that was held over from last week because James and Helen hadn't seen it yet. It is Catherine Bigelow's latest film, A House of Dynamite. Jimbo, this is a fun film for all the family. It is. It was unusual. really for me to see Catherine Bigelow, who hasn't made a film in eight years since Detroit, to pivot to a knockabout sex comedy.

1:09:48And yet here we are with The House of Dynamite, which is written by Noah Oppenheimer. And it is a lot. So this is essentially a story charting 18 very tension-filled minutes. This is the flight of a missile after a nuclear launch is detected somewhere. They're not quite sure where it's come from. There's perhaps been a cyber attack. There's a reason why they don't know what the origin is. but it has an 18, roughly 18 and change minute flight to a US destination. And it's a film broadly of three parts with kind of distinct perspectives on this event. So first we start off in the White House Situation Room, which viewers of the West Wing will know very well, but Rebecca Ferguson is in there as Captain Olivia Walker.

1:10:29And they are the ones who first detect this missile and go through several stages of trying to, shall we say, remedy that situation. Then 45 minutes into the film, we switch to STRATCOM, which is Strategic Command. that's kind of the home of America's nuclear arsenal, essentially, or at least where it's controlled from. And they're trying to get a straight answer out of Gabriel Basso. Yes, the night agent himself, but he's the Deputy National Security Advisor. What's the night agent? It's a TV show. He is the night agent in the night agent. And he's very much out of his depth. And then the final sort of third of this, we switch to the president played by Idris Elba, who's kind of in the car and he's been in a basketball event.

1:11:05Now, on paper, this is a two-hour conference call. Like, that's what this film is. does not do it justice at all, especially because there are so many good people in this. So in addition to those major players, you've got Anthony Ramos, and he's like a major at a listening post. You've got Jared Harris. He's the Secretary of Defense. Caitlin Deaver's in this as well in a small role. Greta Lee turns up in one scene as an NSA operative at a Gettysburg reenactment, because obviously. Moses Ingram is a kind of FEMA official. Jason Clarke's in this as well. And Willa Fitzgerald is hanging around in the White House press room, presumably in the massive amount of time she had off while being criminally underused in Relay, but we'll get onto that a little bit later on.

1:11:41It's a double bill. It's a really double bill. I was going to say that. It is a really double bill. Love it, love it, Chad. So it is these three things, these sort of three different points of view of this event. This film is so unbearably tense, but it's not tense in that kind of uncut gems, boiling point kind of way where it's just fretting. There's lots of stuff going on. It's actually really laser focused. There's only really one thing happening, but what a fucking thing it is. This film, it's not stress. it is deep it's a bone deep existential dread and I think it speaks to this atavistic primal fear that I think many of us probably haven't felt in a while right because like it feels like the nuclear panic if not died at the end of the Cold War certainly took a backseat and I mean partly in fiction and partly in our actual lives it's something we just kind of thought oh no one's going to do that because you know the whole world will blow up and nobody wants that and I think what this film does very well is underscore how serious the threat was and is and how at this particular point in time it's maybe more terrifying than it had ever been.

1:12:39So it's like, what if War Games was just much more upsetting, right? So it is believable, it's terrifying. Everything about this kind of works. The only thing that, and I have one comment on this, and that's that the first segment of this plays those 18 minutes pretty much all the way through, all 18 minutes of it. And then you reset, and you get 18 minutes again. And then you reset and get 18 minutes again. So you go right up to the point of quote-unquote impact. This is cinematic edging. and that is obviously some people's kink and I'm not but we don't kink shame on the Empire Podcast we are not kink shaming on the Empire Podcast but there is a sense that oh my god like you're taking me to the brink of nuclear climax if you will multiple times during this film and there is a point where it becomes quite exhausting in addition to everything else it's really cleverly done but it's an interesting structure I would also say that where this film ultimately ends up which I actually very much like won't be for everyone but I I think it's thought provoking I think it's brilliantly acted.

1:13:35I think it is a masterclass in how to use tension as a cinematic tool. There is not a single wasted scene in this entire film. It is wonderfully put together. But I think there's so much to talk about. And weirdly, I'm not going to go into it here because we're going to do a special for this pretty much after this. But the insanity of the received wisdom response to a nuclear attack is maddening and terrifying and all of those things. Genuinely, I had a sense of kind of low-level nausea all the way through this film. And I felt, by the end of it, genuinely physically sick. So it's a really good time at the movies, is what I'm saying.

1:14:09It's a great piece of filmmaking. It's absolutely leaning into Bigelow's strengths of working with tension and working in these very male-led environments and these particular enclosed spaces, almost, where there's a particular set of codes, a particular rule book that everyone lives by and how that can kind of shape you and deform you to a degree. This is a film that, as you say, is basically not beginning, middle, and end. It's middle, middle, and middle. Those dangling areas where you can draw your own conclusions about what's happening are even more terrifying when you put it in our own context.

1:14:50So, yeah, it's really tough, but it's very, very good. I had a really interesting experience of watching this in central London and walking out to all the police and guards lining up because Trump was visiting. that day, that was the day he was visiting London. So to walk out of that screening with Idris Elba's iteration of a president, which let's be honest, in this day and age, is quite a romantic iteration of a president. I mean, it's Idris Elba, basically. He's been Idris Elba. He's been cool and sweet and like calling up his wife for advice and quoting things from podcasts, which I don't know if it makes me feel better or worse.

1:15:26I hope he doesn't listen to this one. I mean, it was a bangly bang at the end. He's in the very night.

1:15:36so yeah quite a romantic notion of what a president could be compared to what's going on really I mean this is big of his rally cry isn't it this is her putting this front and centre you know she's made incredibly relevant films about war before but this feels like it's going for the jugular I can see big awards nominations for this definitely the screenplay which is by Noah Oppenheim who's written things like Jackie he more recently wrote the Robert De Niro show Zero Day which kind of went on Netflix and went pretty quiet which was good without being great yeah but just in terms of like very thorough world building he's really accomplished that with this and with good reasons because he's a journalist and has dealt with a lot of this stuff before and I can't pick out a single performance from this what a feat in casting on that level that level of people to like blink and you'll miss them almost like extra roles it's extraordinary yeah just bracing and bruising and, yeah, really confrontational.

1:16:35Yeah. And I think it's a great film for people to watch, but I would say be mindful of when you... It's not like, oh, I really fancy... It's Saturday night, I really fancy... It's something... I think you need to brace yourselves for it a little bit. It's harrowing. It's not a wind-down film. The ideal way to watch this is actually to watch it with a bunch of your friends and then talk about it afterwards. 100%, yeah. Like, that's the dream. Don't watch this and then go to bed on your own. That's what we're saying. One of the most upsetting things for me was, there's a moment where you find out what the government is able to achieve for an amount of money and it's not a great, not great odds what they're able to achieve for what I believe is like billions and billions about like, we're talking how to kids eat box office money.

1:17:14Yeah, I mean, we really are, yeah. What he's able to, what they're actually able to achieve with that money is not what they, what they need. And that's, that's, that's so, so scary. Yeah, yeah. It's a funny film. It's a terrifying, terrifying film. I had just read the book Nuclear War, a scenario by Annie Jacobson going into this because nuclear war is something that fascinates and appalls me, obviously. which death would you want? nuclear war? no thank you I mean it's absolutely horrific and this is this is in some ways a bit of a far-fetched scenario that they you know they just happen to miss where exactly the missile comes from and they don't really know who it's coming from and that's possibly something that would not happen in real life were this to happen but there's enough in here to just make you think Jesus H.

1:18:11Christ why do we have these things? why do we have nuclear missiles why do we have so many of them and so a few of the things that could in theory stop them it's a sobering sobering movie the first 45 minutes of this were as tense as I've been watching anything on a screen since the penultimate episode of Day of the Jackal on Sky recently it's just absolutely extraordinary there is a school of thought that there is a slight diminishing returns situation that the movie enters into by not progressing the scenario basically showing you things but I was fascinated by each of the second and the third chapters as well because you get to see you get different information you get little blanks filled in from the previous two and she's asking questions not giving answers precisely it's deliberate but yeah we're going to talk about it in a spoiler chat we don't have a conversation with Catherine Bigelow to append to it.

1:19:14Not yet, anyway. But it's just such a fascinating movie. I just wanted to sit down and talk about nuclear existential panic because I am constantly in the grip of it and might as well share my fears with all of you as well. I think this is an absolutely tremendous movie. We gave it four stars. I would tip into five, maybe, but I can see that some people might have issues with how it concludes, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. But yeah, absolutely wonderful stuff. Everyone, firing on all cylinders. hopefully not literally four stars then for A House of Dynamite which is on Netflix right now next up Relay we might as well get the the Willa double bill the Willa double bill the Willa billa out of the way now Beth talk us through Relay which is the new film from David McKenzie correct?

1:20:05yes excellent good see I'm up to date with all the information I've got it all on my fingertips and there are people in this is this correct? There's a couple of things, isn't it? Aside from Willa Fitzgerald. All right. Not that they need it, because she's perfect. You're right, Beth. I just really love Willa Fitzgerald. Guys, if you've not seen Strange Darling yet, rectify that. Or indeed, reach your season one. Absolutely. Okay, take. All right, it's set in New York City. Riz Ahmed plays Ash, who is a fixer, in that he mediates between whistleblowers who kind of whistleblow. Whistleblow? Don't want to whistleblow anymore.

1:20:43Yeah. And want to kind of give the stuff back so the company will stop harassing them. Yeah. What's the opposite of a whistleblower? I don't think that's always the case. I don't think he always works those situations, but this is what he wants to do this time. Is that right? No, that's pretty much what we're told he's always doing. Right, okay. It's like whistleblowers who have basically been harassed and abused and bullied into giving up their whistleblowing and he finds them an exit strategy and gets them a payout and keeps all the parties happy. Right, yeah. Yeah, that's making sense to me.

1:21:15And I'm glad you guys are here. Thank you. We are your relay. So yes, he does exactly what my much more clever colleagues have just said. And is put in touch with Sarah Grant, who is played by Lily James, who has done exactly that. She's whistleblowering. She worked for a company that puts out pesticide that's had very harmful, or could potentially have very harmful effects and probably will. And she's obtained these documents and wants to give them back. And it's, to put it bluntly, it's just those two shatting for a really long time via a relay service. Did you know this was a thing? No. Is this an actual real thing?

1:21:56Because it's amazing. Yes, it is fascinating. And I think the intricacies of it are really gripping. So yeah, essentially, it's like a service that already exists where people with hearing impairments call up and um it's like a translation service um primarily for that but importantly it's completely confidential and all records of the conversations are destroyed and so ash has found this loophole where he can communicate with these people without being traced by the big baddies and there are big baddies led by sam worthington with whether fitzgerald is kind of his all but silent uh henchman and they're trying to get their mitts on these documents and protect their client through any means necessary.

1:22:41So yeah, so they're hot on the tails. And then it's essentially this kind of race to try and get these documents back to the company without being killed, I guess. All right, sounds good. So that's the premise. I got on with this for the majority. I think there is something so mesmeric about Riz Ahmed's eyes. and the acting he does with his eyes. So there's not a lot of chat in this, obviously, because of the means by which a lot of these conversations are happening. I mean, in the wrong hands, that could be so boring. But it's really tense and interesting. And yeah, just what he's able to convey with just kind of a little twitch of the old eyes there, he does really beautifully.

1:23:29And then you've got Lily James, who's making some interesting choices, I think, with her career. I kind of like all the genre stuff she's doing. And yeah, she's kind of this woman who's just trying to do the right thing, I guess. Or stop doing the right thing, but at least get to a place of safety. Yeah, it's complicated and murky morally, but yes, just wants to kind of get out of the situation. So she's really great as well. It's really tense, kind of harks back, I think, to kind of thrillers of yore. Yeah, it's got a real 70s paranoid thriller vibe. I was going to say 90s also. Just competently done, mid-level thriller.

1:24:10And not just because that's where the tech comes from for half of it. And that stuff, that is the glue of it, I think, is just like introducing people to this format. And it is so interesting how they pull that off and we kind of see it through Sarah's eyes, you know, coming to terms with it. It feels almost like a heist, you know, and he's got all these clever workarounds so things can't be traced or can't be followed or whatever else. and he's just always trying to be one step ahead. That's the delight. It's a process film. It's all about the clever little things he does because he's so much cleverer than everyone else until he isn't.

1:24:44But all the different things that he does, oh, that's clever. Oh, that's really good. Oh, I see what you did. That's really good. I bet you love The Martian. I did. You know what they did. I love it. Just solving problems. People being competent is basically porn for me. I fucking love it and there is tons of it in here. And I really enjoy all of the intricacy of it. I think, and I really enjoyed this film up to a point, I think there is a point where things take a slight turn. It decides to be more of a thriller. Right, and it sort of, he becomes kind of like, he gets into some sub-Jason Bourne antics and I was just like, you know, I like him because he plays flighty and a little bit like scared and kind of mousy very well.

1:25:19Yeah. And I didn't really buy him when he starts, you know, doing more physical things. I guess it kind of had to go that way. They couldn't just be like, bye, kiss, and then that's the end of the film. See, you say that, but weirdly, and it's not the same sort of film but this kind of in my head from a sort of genre point of view this echoed Michael Clayton to me and like that is not something where I mean yes it has some action-y stuff in it but I like that he outwits people and that's how that film plays out it is just that he's better at this than they are and I think this maybe could have found a solution along those lines without having to get a little bit traditional thriller so I was a little bit let down at the end like I was really enjoying it at that point and it's still good I still liked it but maybe a little disappointed by that I really enjoyed it I think you're right about the ending, but at the same time, I just had fun with it by that point.

1:26:03And my only other quibble is that she's meant to be sort of on the run and hiding out and everything else. And she hires a sort of apartment, a hotel, whatever it is, but with the largest windows in the world. And then she never, ever, ever pulls her curtains. And just stands in the window. And I get that there's a kind of like slightly Hitchcockian, vertigo-y, rear window-y, you know, obsession thing going on because he's a bit, obviously she's Lily James, she's very pretty, And he's a bit like keeping an eye on her maybe more than he has to. Keeping an eye on her. But at the same time, like, come on, girl.

1:26:36Have a little bit of process yourself. Like, seriously. It would kill you to get a Venetian blind. Come on. They're literally there. You can see them in the window. She does not lower them. So this movie is good or relay good? Oh, my God. It's good. It's good. It's good. Three stars, which is a recommendation. Yeah. Or relay. I'm a high three on this. I had a lovely time. you had a lovely time I did you had a wonderful time yay there we go three stars then for relay next up Hells Bells hey you're up begonia us into a frenzy yes so as I said Michelle Fuller is a tech CEO a kind of a pharmaceutical CEO played by Emma Stone she is kidnapped by a conspiracy theorist beekeeper not Jason Staten I'm so sorry you had me so excited Teddy played by Jesse Plemons and his brother Dawn, who's played by Aidan Delbiss, who's great.

1:27:32And they, yeah, they take her to their remote farmhouse and shave her head so she can't, they think, communicate with the mothership. That's how I communicate with the mothership. Or how I used to before I lost my hair. Oh, no, that's why you've been stranded. This explains a lot. It does, actually. It really does. But yeah, they hold her prisoner in the basement and they try to get some information out of her about you know the the coming alien invasion or whatever and she is trying to use her kind of leadership skills i guess to get them to catch themselves on i suppose okay yeah and negotiate away out of this rather unhelpful fix that she's in um this is the 57th movie that yorgos and emma stone have made together yeah yeah fourth maybe roughly i love that what's that onion headline where it's like Jorgos Latham was three films away from Emma Stone just hanging out with him as a friend.

1:28:30It's really, really good. So he's so close. He's so close. He's so close. So it's the favourite and then the other two. The favourite kinds of kindness and poor things. That's it. Yes. The one that she won the Oscar for that I completely forgot. Still Cruella. Come on. But yes, and now this is the fourth. And now this is the fourth. But it's really kind of Jesse Plemons' movie. Jesse Plemons is off the charts in this. I feel like he has been, you know, racking up credibility points and, you know, reviewers love him points for a long time now. I feel like this is maybe hopefully going to get him to like the next level of that.

1:29:08Because, again, reviewers love him and he's got huge credibility, but he's so good in this and he is so convincing as a guy who has just like cuckoo away with the fairies. But how can that be profitable for Frito-Lay? see i mean he was so good in that and and there's a little bit of that kind of you know swivel-eyed lunacy i guess here um but also just i just i just thought it played really well i felt like i knew where it was going and i'll be honest i was right i'm not going to say what i thought uh but at the same time i just had a blast with this and it did surprise me in a couple of respects along the way so um yeah this is not i think going to trouble the oscars in the way that poor things did or the favorites but it's much more fun than kinds of kindness if you're just sort of keeping track of yorgos um stuff recently but yeah i i just thought it was great really really fun four stars in for begonia and last but not least this week hell's bells Edward Berger's Ballad of a Small Player.

1:30:13Tell us about this, please. Yeah, so this is based on the novel of the same name by Lawrence Osborne, adapted by Rowan Joffe. And this has Colin Farrell playing a gambler called Lord Doyle. And he's living in Macau, and he is on his last bottle of cristal. I mean, he is really down to the dregs here. He has his lucky gambling gloves he's putting on. He's going out in his fabulous colored suits every night and looking for a win that will kind of enable him to keep going. But as he does this, a private investigator, played by Tilda Swinton, turns up in town looking for him for something shady in his past.

1:30:54And he meets a woman called Dao Ming, who's played by Fala Chen, who may be able to give him a lifetime. She gives out loans and one of those might just keep him going until his big payday that he is convinced is just around the corner because he's been on such a losing streak for such a long time. Or will she? Or will it? Etc. So first of all, I spent the first 20 minutes thinking that Colin Farrell was horrendously miscast. And then I decided no, he wasn't for reasons that would become apparent once you watched the film. The second thing is, I kind of, I saw some things coming before they did, but not everything in this film.

1:31:32I saw a couple of things coming. And I thought, okay, kind of, this is pretty good. This is not, you know, amazing, but it's pretty good. But it's really weirdly stayed with me. And I think part of that is the way that it's shot. So they shot in real casinos in Macau, which did not shut down for filming. So there's real sort of gambling going on all around them. because it's too profitable to shut down even for a day for filming. Like no film could afford it basically. And it just, so it has this neon soaked, slightly seedy kind of air about it. It's beautifully coloured. I mean, just the look of this film is really just saturated and dense, mostly at night, but not all.

1:32:16And then it's contrasted with these kind of rainy day scenes. It's really, really beautiful looking. and it's weirdly stuck with me in a way that I didn't think it was going to for the first half of this film and I think a lot of that is Colin Farrell because he is great at playing a guy who's down on his luck and his eyebrows are sad and he doesn't know what to do next and I think it's a really, really, really good performance from him so I enjoyed that I enjoyed Valachan as this slightly almost ethereal person who may or may not be able to kind of reach him and bring him back to some kind of sensible relationship with the world.

1:32:55And then Tilda Swinton is this obviously eccentric, wildly OTT character. Yeah, I've seen people criticize Tilda Swinton like she's in a different movie. I get that, but I liked her. I just enjoyed the character. So I had a better time with it the more I thought about it. And I'll be honest, our reviewer did not. Yeah. We've given this two stars. I cannot give you that review because I don't agree with it. but yeah that's I get it I guess because it did take a while to grow on me but I personally am not in that camp yeah it's a movie that has haunted me in some ways as well and I thought going into it that it was going to be almost like a leaving Las Vegas retread of this guy just hitting rock bottom and finding it not to his satisfaction that he had to hit rock bottom beneath the rock bottom and he would just keep digging and digging and digging and digging and digging and it would be misery porn.

1:33:49It does feel like that for the first half. For the first half, definitely. But there is, I mean, it's beautifully shot. There are images in this that just have stayed in my brain since I don't think it's as good a conclave while getting it out of the way right now. Or All Quiet on the Western Front. No, no, no, absolutely not. But I love the burger. As you will have heard in the interview I did with him, you know, I love that he's been so prolific. He's striking when the iron is hot and obviously that's just the impression that we get from the fact that these have come out so quickly. You know, hot in the heels of conclave he shot this before conclave came out uh and you know conclave came hot in the heels of all quiet in the western front but these are movies he's been developing for years but for me i thought it was like oh all quiet in the western front has made my name as a director okay what can i do next and that's that's the impression i got anyway and they're all wildly different and visually this is wildly different from from conclave which was very austere and locked down and here the camera is moving wildly and it reflects Colin Farrell's kind of frenetic qualities as well as desperate qualities he's a man who's constantly on the move constantly trying to outwit his fate and outrun his fate and there's a lot here to chew on that we probably can't talk about, there's some twists and turns one we talked about in the interview with Edward Berger another one we did not but this has stayed with me more than I thought it was going to you know because the second half there is a lot more going on than just misery porn and Farrell I have to say I don't think this is going to dent the Oscar race particularly I might be completely wrong about that but he's amazing he's great and if you have some issues with the choice of accent that he has in this movie because he's playing an English lord Lord Doyle.

1:35:43Stick with it. Yeah, absolutely. We should say, by the way, the cinematographer was James Friend, just because we have raved about cinematography. But didn't mention him. Camera Friend. There is, I mean, what you're saying about him putting out these films so quickly, there has been a real rash of filmmakers doing that. I mean, with Lanthomas, he's just been chugging them out, like putting them in T-shirt guns and just like... Yeah. Guy Ritchie's made four films this week. We're joking. Soda Book has put out three films this year yeah I love it if you can you gotta move you know strike while they are and so on I guess but not everyone finds it so easy the anti-Kubrick but our reviewer did not enjoy this movie and gave it two stars that is the official Empire review so there you go if you want to see it it's on Netflix right now Ballad of a Small Player go and check it out and see whether you agree with Helen and myself or indeed our reviewer okay so shall we have our third and final guests hurrah yeah Plural because it's two of them.

1:36:40Yes. The Hand That Rocks the Cradle, the remake of the 1992 Curtis Hansen classic starring Rebecca De Mornay as a terrifying nanny is on Disney Plus right now or Hulu if you are in the States and it stars Micah Monroe as the new iteration of that terrifying nanny and Mary Elizabeth Winstead as the lady who she has been a terrifying nanny to. Well, she's been a terrifying nanny to children but she's terrifying to the adults. The children love her in this. They thought, oh, yeah, great, terrifying nanny. Whereas Mary Elizabeth Winstead is like, whoa, maybe the nanny shouldn't be so terrifying. Whoa.

1:37:20I feel like I don't need to see it now because you've painted such a vivid picture. And a fucking picture of this movie. And so there's lots of, you know, there's lots of stuff for them to get their teeth into in this. You know, Michael Munro, you know, we've seen her in loads of horror movies over the last few years, It Follows and Long Legs, but this time she's been the baton and Mary Elizabeth Winstead is terrific in this as well so it's on Disney Plus and I sat down with them on Zoom a couple weeks ago slight sound issues in this every time we spoke at the same time that's Zoom, that classic Zoom thing of it would just cut out so hopefully I'll be able to cut around that and you will get a sense of the conversation that we had because I had a lot of fun talking to these two Michael Monroe, Mary Elizabeth Winstead do please enjoy We are delighted to be joined on the Emperor Podcast By the stars of the hand that rocks the cradle Mary Elizabeth Winstead and Micah Monroe How the devil are you both?

1:38:14Pretty good, pretty good Yeah, I have no complaints So far so good So far today Now we're good When was the last time you guys saw each other? Was it the day you wrapped? Other than last night Yeah, we saw each other Last night Last night But before that When we did When we shot some additional things Which was a couple of months ago I don't even know when that was I don't think it was a couple of months ago We've both been gone A couple of busy gals over here World win It is what it is But the time that you spent on set The last day you spent on set Was that because my god Some of the scenes that you guys have together Are very very intense But was it a very intense last day full of physical action, screaming, sobbing, or was it staring at each other malevolently?

1:39:15It was, we ended on. We ended with a bang. With the ending. Let me tell you. Yeah. We ended with a bang. Yeah. So, yes, it was good stuff. So, I think we saw the, yes. You're right. You know. You know. You know what we're talking about. I know what you're talking about. I just can't say. I can't say. No. No. No. No. want to spoil but yes if people want to find out they can they can watch it on on hulu or disney plus that's you know that's that's the way to go so is this a complete then 180 for you guys just sitting next to each other cozy in a junket yeah no it's lovely we're having a great time actually i remember saying that like when we were shooting it's just like like when we get to do the press for this we'll actually get to like i know like and do you know have normal conversations yeah it's great it's been lovely i know because was it not like that on set were you very much because you're you're very much of the loggerheads throughout we were totally friendly but i think there was slight like just for our characters yeah there was like a yeah a slight distance or just trying to like you know keep a certain mystery if you will yeah probably more for me just trying to keep a little, you know, certain parts hidden.

1:40:29But no, I mean, we had a blast. In between, yeah, in between moments, you know, we were always chatting and stuff. But when we were shooting and we would be like, okay, we're still doing the scene, but we're on the train. Also, there was like a lot of like, you know, especially for you, like crying, emotional, and, you know, you kind of, you know, you need to give the person their space on that. And that, you know, takes a lot to... get that out and poor Mary had a lot of that. It was a lot. It was a lot of that. Yeah, so you're trying to get in the headspace and you don't want someone in your ear going, hey, did you see that film last week?

1:41:06It can be tricky. I know it's so funny. I remember like shooting some of those scenes and sometimes we didn't have places to go. Yeah. And I'd be like, you know, we'd be outside, I'd be like trying to find a corner, trying to find a tree to go by. Yeah, just like, please, no one. just like standing, looking at a tree. And like, people will just come up to me and start talking. I'm like, yeah, cool. I'm just going to be here by this tree. I'll see you later. Oh, yeah. It's the worst when someone comes in is like, they're not reading the room right now. Okay. Like, is everything. I'm like, what do you think?

1:41:37Of course, I'm not okay. I'm trying to be okay. Look at what I'm doing right now. Yeah, I can imagine that. You know, where's Mary today? Oh, there's a sopping sound coming from over there by the tree. Just leave her be. Yes. She's fine. That's her. That's her. Because I was just curious because, Micah, we spoke for Long Legs and I know that on Long Legs, because, you know, Oz Perkins is a twisted genius. He kept you and Nick Cage apart until the scene where you meet for the first time. Literally, you meet him for the first time as you walk through the door. Jarring. Yes. The first time to meet Nick Cage and the first time to see him in the hall.

1:42:18Oh, my God. Yeah. No, it was a lot. anxiety was high that day let me tell you no it was it was like it was an incredible experience anyways but for all these reasons because you got way more scenes together in this you had to you know be a be a partnership a double act in many ways definitely no it was much more partnership yes and when we were apart it was like we were aware of why we were you know we were even that was a collaboration when we were being distanced yes like okay you're gonna go there i want to go over here because it's because we're getting ready to do our thing yeah do the thing yeah yes was but michael in a way was long legs an inspiration for you taking this role because we're not used to seeing you i mean you're if i can say this you're you're fucking terrifying in this film so you know which is a good thing Worked Yeah, mission accomplished So did you see Nick having all that fun on long legs And think, I want a piece of life for myself Yes, 100 % It probably was a small influence I feel like I've always Though, I've always wanted to be The bad guy I feel like when people ask I feel like people have asked Oh, would you want to be a Bond girl?

1:43:37I'm like, no, I want to be the villain In a Bond movie I've always wanted to I've never done it I knew it would be a challenge But a really fun Challenge so yeah Yes villain era now Because the next thing I'm doing also I'm a villain well not the next thing but the thing After I'm also I love it So anyways Villain era Mary have you opened your Have you unlocked your villain era yet I'm trying to think Have I done Not as of late. I don't think I've done anything villainous in a good minute. So maybe I'm ready for it. You might be. Maybe. I highly recommend. Yeah, I'm up for it. Yeah, I think you'd cry.

1:44:23Anybody wants to do that? Yeah. Yeah, because it's a hell of a thing. I mean, the two of you go through the ringer in this movie. And the thing I love about, you know, I don't know whether you consider this movie to be an out-and-out horror, but certainly psychological thriller is that it really asks so much of you as performers and and mary you were really pushing yourself in this you know standing behind that tree sobbing these these are you know that's you go to dark places it is i mean and that's you know obviously as actors that's kind of tends to be what gets you going and gets you excited to do something and then you're doing it and you're going oh my god okay yeah i've got to follow through with this now.

1:45:06But it was amazing how, you know, other than the amping myself up, standing by a tree and all that stuff, it was kind of effortless in a way because of, you know, what we were talking about, just like having everybody involved be so talented and the script be so good. Michelle, just collaborating in the most beautiful way. It just made it all so kind of easy. So I don't know that I've ever done something that was so intense and so easy at the same time. It was really an amazing experience. Totally. What was the hardest day for you guys that you could talk about? I mean, that last scene. That last scene.

1:45:47It was incredibly hard. It was just exhausting and draining. Doing it wasn't necessarily hard in the sense of it wasn't hard to go there because you were so present and so great and and and we had mostly shot chronologically so it was like everything was kind of leading up to that which made it easy but it was it was really exhausting and and and the lead up to it is always hard when you're you know you have a scene like that to do yeah it's almost harder totally beforehand like having it loom over over and like no what if we get there and i just like can't do it i just i can't connect to it at all like like what do i do you know um so that that's Almost more like the anxiety of that.

1:46:31And then when you're there doing it, you're just doing it. You do it. And it's kind of living through you and then it's over and it's kind of a crazy thing. And same for you, Micah, as well, that scene, the challenges of that scene? I mean, that, it's just, you know, emotionally, you know, you got to go there, which is, you know, a lot. but and then you know you have to do it over and over and over that is true over and this angle and closer up and and now i have to get the two shot and then you know so it's it's it's um yeah it's just it can be hard to live in that sort of uh mental space and uh for that long and just because it was such a you know a pivotal scene in the movie you know we we made sure to take our time on it but you know that it was um i do remember that it's funny the things you block out and now i'm like oh yeah i do now i remember that like us being like oh we're doing it again again yes oh they're got another oh yeah oh yeah it's just like here we go again okay yeah that that is that can be yeah you want to you almost want to just be able to do it once and be like just get it out that yeah that's not it was hard it's really hard but is that is that better in a way Does that help because you're both emotionally fraught in that scene?

1:47:52And then if you're doing it for, I don't know, the 15th time or something like that, my guess is the Kubrick school of direction. I don't know. It depends, but it's like, for me, when I get emotional or I get myself to a place of crying, I can't cry on demand. I can't snap a finger and start crying. like i have to like mentally go to a place that makes me emotional makes me cry and it's not normal for me at least there's been very few times in my life that i've cried or been emotional longer than you know 15 20 minutes like you're not crying for four hours and and to you know on top of you know having to to to go to that place in my brain to to tap into that to do it and then they're like okay cut we're gonna now move the camera if you guys wouldn't mind stepping you know off into the holding rooms and then it's just it's it's it's yeah i'm totally with you on that i definitely i would not i wouldn't i would not choose to be doing multiple takes of no of something like that you know i definitely get there's been directors you know historically we hear about it all the time that you know there's some great directors who's 75 actors that way but um it's just you know and i can see i can see maybe for a certain feeling if you're trying to if you're if it's a scene where you're meant to be so emotionally drained you have nothing left to give then maybe that makes sense but other than that it's not like it's not for me i mean i'll give it i'll give it a go sometime i know i'll see what happens yeah we're not gonna when Micah was turning it on in terms of, you know, Polly's, shall we say, more intense side.

1:49:44You know, yeah, she's sitting beside you right now, but chilling, goosebumps. Briefly stare. Oh my God. I remember kind of the first time you like turned it on because we would sort of like rehearse and stuff and you would keep it, you wouldn't really do it. So much. So like the first day we're just kind of like rehearsing the scenes and stuff and it was all great like i was just like oh this is great great and then we're actually doing it and i was like

1:50:12okay and it would be you know especially like when i might when i would look down or something you'd be like i know a lot was happening the thing i'll just like look away a lot was happening behind her back it's like watch the movie for the first time you're like i know why she was looking at me like that. I had no idea. It's so good. Michael Caine, famously said, he was on screen. He didn't blink. He gave an acting workshop years ago. You should check it out. It's absolutely amazing. He goes, I don't blink on camera. Are you the same in this? Were your eyes going dry? Were you staring at Mary Elizabeth for four or five minutes straight?

1:50:53just straight just zero blinking um i honestly don't really remember what i did there but um it might have just happened naturally i don't i don't know it's it's really funny on this this last thing that i just shot there was a big thing was like not blinking and it's so hard your eyes do dry out you really it's like you have to kind of lock into place of anyways yeah rabbit hole but uh yes blinking no blinking non-blink that's a blink that's what it is is uh stanislavski wrote about it he basically he boiled acting down to blinking or not blinking kind of sad you know but but in a way i i get it it's it's sort of like you know you're it's just like the simplicity of it like you're just seeing into this yeah you know but i i mean i i did try i went through a phase of trying not to blink after hearing that you know that the that michael Kane thing, but I gave it up.

1:51:52A valiant try? Yeah, no, I don't do it anymore, but I did try. Is there a movie I can watch that you didn't blink? Well, Scott Pilgrim vs. the World, we weren't supposed to blink. No. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was definitely... Get a rewatch and look for any blinkings. Definitely tried not to blink, but, you know, you can only do something. I know. Well, see, that sounds like Edgar, I know, would have seen that Michael Kane Masterclass, so that would have been his... That would have been. I've learned about it through Edgar Wright. Oh, of course. Oh, my God. That's amazing. Yeah, I've got to rewatch that movie now and count the blinks.

1:52:29Yeah. And without blinking, I'm going to say thank you so much, Steve, for your time. I just blinked. Christ. There you go. It's easy. I came so close. I came so close. Thanks for your time. It's been a pleasure. Cheers. All right. Thank you. All right. That was Mary Elizabeth Winstead and Micah Munro talking about The Hand That Rocks the Cradle available right now on Disney Plus. And on that note, that is it for this week's Emperor Podcast. Join us next week for more film-related fun, when we'll be joined by Elle Fanning and Demetrius Schuster Koloa Motangi, who are the stars of Predator Badlands.

1:53:08Predator! Predator! Badlands! We'll also be joined by Jennifer Lawrence and Lynn Ramsey star and director respectively of Die My Love and as if that weren't enough Sean Bean star of the brand new movie Anemone oh and his new chum Daniel Day Lewis what? that is astonishing how many Oscar winners in one pod? yes you want to calm down two okay but like with five You've got like four Oscars between them. Jeez. It wasn't that difficult to count. But they do have, I mean, how many has Daniel Day-Lewis won? Three? He's got three Oscars. How many has Jennifer Lawrence won? Is it still only one? Still only one.

1:54:01But she's been nominated a bunch. She's been nominated. I think she's won two. Has she won two? No, she's won one. Sean Bean, Sean Bean, the greatest actor to have never been nominated for an Oscar. I think we can all agree on that. All right. So that is very, very exciting indeed. What an amazing show. By the way, if you're wondering where the Kenny Dalglish interview that I promised you on last week's show is going to be, it's up as his own special right now. Kenny Dalglish and Asif Kapadia talking about their new documentary, Kenny Dalglish, which is about You'll Never Guess. And that is going to be on Prime Video next week and is well worth your time.

1:54:36I'm outrageously biased because, you know, Liverpool Football Club and all that. But we gave it four stars and I completely agree with the Arsenal fan who wrote that. So there you go. Okay, I think we're good. I think we're done here, right? Yes, yes. Oh, my word. Release me. Until we meet again, until then, until that auspicious occasion, it is goodbye from my three colleagues of such lethal cunning. Beth Webb. Death Webb. Death, sorry. Death Webb of gore. Death Webb. Death Webb of violence. Death. Bye. Bye, Beth. Bye. Beth becomes... terrifying it's goodbye from the Camino kid himself listen to the pilot T-Ville podcast a podcast of purest T-Ville true yeah that makes sense James Dyer warning James Dyer warning no that's that's not good enough we'll workshop it it's goodbye from Helen O 'Hara toodle boo

1:55:47Oh, that's amazing. That is amazing. And it's goodbye from me. I'm off to...

1:55:57Oh, God. Oh, no. Your stomach. Your stomach. It's coming out of my chest. Oh, my God. Thanks for listening. See you next week. Bye.

1:56:11you