Paul Thomas Anderson & Boogie Nights: An Empire Podcast Special, In Association With Warner Bros.

0:14Hello pod, I'm Chris Hewitt and welcome to a very special edition of the Empire Podcast in association with our friends at Warner Brothers. You know, over the last 25 years or so, there has been one directing Paul Anderson who has bestrode cinema like a colossus. No, not that guy. Not the guy directed at Event Horizon. Not Paul W.S. Anderson. I'm talking, of course, about Paul Thomas Anderson. P.T.A. himself. The director of Magnolia and Punch Drunk Love. And it will be Blood and Hard Eight and The Master and Licorice Pizza and inherent feiss and one battle after another. And of course, Boogie Nights, which has now been finally remastered in 4K UHD and is available for you to buy right now.

1:00And that momentous event has meant that I have now corralled three colleagues of such lethal cunning together in this pod booth to chat all things Boogie Nights and PTA for the next 45 minutes or so. We're going to have a simply capital time. The big bright shining stars I have assembled are, of course, James Thomas Dyer. Hello, Chris. Alex Thomas Godfrey. Good evening. Helen Thomas O 'Hara. I guess. Hello. Wow, that's a weird middle name. You know, I like to mix it up. But there you go. And of course, it's me, Chris Thomas. Actually, that is my middle name. That literally is. Genuinely, it's my middle name.

1:43You just stumbled into that. Chris Thomas. I am a CTA because I'm Ambrose. And my mother's maiden name was ******, and our dog growing up was ******. So if any fraudsters out there would like to guess my password, that'll help you along the way. So there you go. So Boogie Nights. Let's start with Boogie Nights and get a kind of overview of PTA and this wonderful, wonderful career. we have something in Empire Magazine called Classic Scene it's at the back of the magazine and it is where we ask filmmakers and actors to choose one of their favourite movie scenes of all time and tell us why they love it and no word of a lie only one scene has been chosen by multiple people and that scene is the firecracker scene featuring Alfred Molina from Boogie Nights and one of the people who chose it as well was Mark Wahlberg who's in the scene and I said Mark You can't choose the scene that you're in.

2:43But I can understand why you would, because it's an amazing scene. But I think that shows just what an impact and what a legacy Boogie Nights has had since it dropped in, what, 1997? Alex, I know you love Boogie Nights. I do. And by the way, that scene, I mean, even out of context, it's got everything you could want from cinema in that scene. It's so funny. It's so wild. It's so unhinged. The energy of it. It's so intense. It's stressful and scary and funny at the same time. Alfred Molina is just, I mean, the guy, the character is supposed to be up for like three days and he's just an absolute maniac.

3:23Mark Wahlberg, there's that amazing shot of him where he's clearly just having this massive existential meltdown on a camera. Mark Wahlberg is so, we'll get into it, but he's so brilliant in this film. And there are many levels to the performance. I mean, he basically plays at least two characters in this film. You know, he starts off as this innocent, wide-eyed, suburban kid who's obviously got, you know, he's in demand for his extensive talents. His extensive talents. And he knows that. And, you know, he's getting paid to do things with it. But also, he's just… Not unlike podcasters. A little unlike podcasters.

4:02Do you think? Yeah. All right. But he's still a kid living at home with his parents. And just wants, you know, he's got dreams of getting out of there. He doesn't know what he wants to be. He says he's going to be a big, bright, shining star. He doesn't quite know where that's going to take him. But, you know, after like an hour, hour and a half into the film, once the cocaine comes into it, and he plays this complete obnoxious, arrogant, like wannabe rock star, actual cornerstone star. He's very convincing at both these types of people. And it's a pretty smooth transition from one into the other.

4:35But anyway, I digress. That scene is amazing. I mean, it's so funny. It's so stressful. It's so scary. There's genuine emotion in it. There's real heart in it. It's because Tom Jane in it. I mean, anything that has Tom Jane in it, I'm just on board. Probably the first time I was aware of Thomas Jane as well. Really? Yeah, had you seen him before this? When was Deep Blue Sea? Yeah, I was going to say. No, Deep Blue Sea was after Boogie Nuts. Oh, okay. Yeah. And Punisher was after. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Many, many. Yeah. So, yeah, probably was the first time. You know, the firecrackers were not scripted.

5:02That was the whole, because Joe Chan is Anderson's friend and he'd been doing it at a party. And so they just did it on the day. and it kind of it makes that scene it really does it's fantastic because it keeps you on edge as it does the characters all the way through so much yeah I think Mark Warburg's reactions to those firecrackers were real yeah I don't doubt it I'm sure lots of trivia will come up but talking of which Paul Thomas Anderson wanted Sean Penn to play the Avril Molina role offered it to him he said no obviously he would work with him a couple of times later more recently and then John Totoro was also up for that role You can see what Sean Penn and John Turturro would have done with that role.

5:41But it would have been very different. It would have been amazing. But I think there's a surprise in that Alfred Molina did it. And obviously he's having so much fun with it. But I think, I mean, if this is how we're going to start talking about the film, I think the interesting thing is the whole film is a string of amazing films. Boogie Nights, like Goodfellas, and it's very obviously heavily influenced by Goodfellas, but it makes the grade. It's just as effective in being, you know Goodfellas was sort of designed to fill almost like a two and a half hour trailer you know it's like it's got this montage feel where every scene bleeds into the next and Brigham United is kind of the same there's not one scene in there that just feels like it's in there just to get things moving or just to get onto the next scene every single scene feels characters ribbon and it's so entertaining rich and vital as well and the filmmaking is so energetic and this was the film that really put PTA on the map because Heartache is, of course, his debut.

6:37But I don't think you could look really at Heartache. And, you know, if you said to me when I saw Heartache for the first time that the director of this is going to be one of the great American directors and maybe the greatest American director of the next 25 years, I'd have gone, no. I'm not so sure. But Boogie Nights, you can absolutely see it. And Hells Bells, do you have the touch? Do you have the power when it comes to this movie? I love this movie. I don't know if that means I have the touch or the power. recording it. There you do. But no, I think it's brilliantly, brilliantly put together.

7:10Like you say, it's the character arc, particularly for Eddie slash Dirk. But really, the way everyone is given these moments of grace and humanity and humor and heart, I think is kind of wonderful. I feel like he fell in love with his characters during the film because, you know, there are moments of, it's almost a super happy ending for many of them in a way that you might not have expected two-thirds of the way through. You know, there is a sort of, I don't want to call it pulling its punches because that's not how it feels. It feels more like he just loved them and wanted them to find a way through the sort of the dark years and the cocaine addiction in some cases and give you a sense of hope at the end of the movie that kind of they're all going to get through.

7:55Okay, I'm not saying everybody's going to get through unscathed, but it feels like there's at least hope. And I think that's not necessarily something that every film in 1997 would have done in a subject like this. It could have been very, very bleak at the end. And actually, it feels like it's going to be at one point. There's that point, you know, sort of really 20 minutes, 25 minutes before the end where you're like, ooh, this is terrible. Well, the New Year's Eve party that signals the move from Bill Macy. That sequence is so astonishing. It's one of those scenes I rewatch every now and again because I think that is just, it's extraordinary.

8:33But also, it wrong-foots you, doesn't it? Because until that point, the kind of recurring motif of his wife sleeping with other people has been humorous. Yeah. And it's funny until it's not. And that's a really bleak kind of full stop at the end of that sequence. It's hard. And also, I mean, after he, let's not pull punches here, murders his wife and her lover, he comes out and before he shoots himself, there's that little weird smile that he gives the room. it's I mean that's just like a whoa moment it's incredible it's almost like a revenge suicide is that what I'm saying oh it is I'm through with this I'm through with all of you this is what you get it's the smile of a broken man I mean I'm not saying otherwise but it is you know a man who's also broken other people he said the party's over folks the party's over we're having a great time in the 70s but the 80s is just around the corner and it ain't going to be as much fun let me tell you well everything happens in that scene I mean you call it a scene but it's like I say it's a sequence and so much so on that night it's about 8 minutes or something Yeah, Todd, is it Todd Parker?

9:30Thomas Jane's character. Yeah. He shows up and then he introduces, and so he's, if there is an antagonist to this film, I think it's probably Todd because he's the one who sends Dirk down the wrong path. Dirk, formerly Eddie. Yeah, that's fair. Amber introduces Dirk, I think, that night to cocaine and then everything later goes wrong and he becomes a complete cocaine fiend. But also at that party, yeah, little Bill kills his wife and, well, let's not say lover, but sexual friend. And then himself. And then also at the same party is when Floyd Gondoli, I think, shows up and tells Jack Horner that the future of filmmaking is video.

10:14It's funny, the casting for this film almost kind of blows my mind. Can you imagine this film with Leo as the lead? It's just not, I don't see this film working in that way. Tolstoy. Yes, indeed. if Tolstoy had played Dirk Diggler it would have been a very different film because I can't imagine DiCaprio in the role it's a very different film if DiCaprio is Dirk Diggler because Anderson has seen him in What's Eating Gilbert Great and he asked him to do the role he was committed to Titanic couldn't do it and he recommended Wahlberg for the role and has since said and it's wild to think about it he wishes he'd been able to do both he doesn't obviously regret doing Titanic but he said one of the biggest regrets of his career was passing on Boogie Nights but I just, I can't see this film with Leo in that role.

10:58He doesn't have the right look for it. I don't think he has the right vibe because Wahlberg, there's a real edge to him. And don't get me wrong, like Leo has, certainly as he's become an older actress, he'd matured as a player. I think he has an edge to him. But certainly at that age he was then, he's far too cherubic and baby-faced. Whereas I think, exactly what Alex talked about, that transition from Eddie to Dirk, which happens in this, like Wahlberg completely inhabits that. And he is unsettling and he is obnoxious and on the edge and coax off his face. And an idiot as well. And a complete idiot.

11:27But he arrives fully formed in that role. It's not hard to see why this film made him a massive star. It isn't at all. He's a very underrated actor is Mark Wahlberg and he's absolutely terrific in this film. But, you know, he's surrounded by the most extraordinary cast. You know, we've mentioned a lot of them already but William H. Macy, Heather Graham, this is the film I think that brought her to a lot of people's attention. I mean, she'd been in stuff beforehand, of course. Julianne Moore Philip C. Moore-Hoffman a real step up for Julianne Moore as well John C. Reilly Don Cheadle and of course Burt Reynolds who in my opinion should have won the Oscar that year and did not well maybe because he kept slagging it off I mean yes that was not the greatest strategy he's denied that since hasn't he he's like because he and PGA famously didn't get on while making the film it's an incredible performance he's incredible he's brilliant Warren Beatty was in talks before that went in a different direction.

12:26But no, Burt Reynolds is absolutely fantastic in this film. He's got so much heart. On paper, what he does is and how he does it, he's watching the scene where he has Eddie have sex with Roller Girl for the first time and he's just sitting there on the couch absorbing it. There's so much in this film that I think in the hands of a different director and different cast, especially Burt Reynolds, could come across as sleazy. And it never really does at all. I mean, it is sleazy. It is in subject matter. But you don't feel like, oh, Jack Horner, what a sleaze, well, because... No, he's serious about his work.

13:06Yeah, you never feel like he's getting them to do it because he's getting off on it. There's an element of detachment to it. But then this whole film to me, it's about porn, but it doesn't feel particularly salacious. And there's actually not that much nudity in it, given the type of film that it is. and it never feels exploitative and it never feels prurient. It feels almost, and I think this is, I guess, what porn is for people who work in the industry. It feels humdrum. It feels like a job. It feels like, you know, although with Jack Horner, it's art. Indeed, yeah. It's art for him. But I think that's very much to the film's credit because it could have gone in a very different direction.

13:37Because this film really put PTA on the map. Yes, Hard Eight had marked him out as someone to watch. But this, for me, I still remember where I was when I saw Boogie Nights for the first time. Not down to the postcode, but I remember it being in Northern Ireland watching it for the first time and kind of being blown away by it. Because, yes, it is very Scorsese-influenced and there's maybe a little bit of Tarantino in there as well. But I was so stunned by how bold and confident he was with his sense of time and place, establishing that, the sense of establishing an era, but also just some of the camera moves.

14:13It's a brifura performance behind the camera for PTA. and it's interesting that you know the way he's evolved over the years there's still a lot of really really wonderful very cinematic sequences but maybe Magnolia aside I don't think I think he evolved away from that after Boogie Nights I think there's you know there's an element of the same kind of showiness or show off-iness of a young director trying to make his name I mean you see the same thing with Spielberg in Jaws right some of the slightly more complicated shots in Jaws you know when you think about that first real party scene where there's the cameras going into the water and following them as they swim underwater and then coming back up and seeing somebody jump off the diving board and then going back down.

14:56That kind of thing is a bit showy. And it works. That was also a rip-off. That shot was a homage to a shot and I mean I know this but I haven't seen the film but I am Cuba. Oh, so Cuba, yeah. That is the same shot he was homage and there's a lot of homage in this film but he does it so well that he owns it. Well, this is what I'm saying. Yeah, it works really, really well in this film but I think, you know, he wanted to show he wasn't just show-offy as he went along and he could do classical and still get the same effect and i think that's again it's the same path that you know scorsese's and spielberg's and all the rest have also taken they have the toolbox they can use the fancy schmancy shots when they want to but they don't they don't need that to get the impact but i think it's used brilliantly here and i think it's particularly in those party scenes throughout the film where you go from you know him as the kind of alice in wonderland being introduced to this world and you getting a sense of these characters for the first time in that first party.

15:48And then he's on top of the world. And then there's the sort of point where it all starts to go wrong. And then there's an echo actually at the end of the film where it's not quite a party, but they're getting back to it. Dirk's back in business. Amber's back performing. Jack is directing once again. They're setting up the cameras. And the camera's following Jack through the house in that final scene in much the same way it followed people through the parties before. So there's kind of an echo. So there's kind of a sense of it continuing. I felt that the end of it is a little bit more tawdry than that.

16:19And it's a darker time. AIDS is on the cusp of decimating the porn industry. It's going to be a specter in all these people's lives. Obviously, this was partly inspired by the story of John Holmes, who was HIV positive by the end of his career. And that end with the iconic ending with Dirk revealing his full dignity. the Rossity, that's a tremendously sad ending for me. It's iconic, but it's tremendously sad. Yeah, look, I'm not saying everything is super-duper happy in that final shot. What I'm saying is it's an echo of the way that the earlier ones have been shot. And you feel the redemption as well there, because it feels like he's come full circle, like he's hit rock bottom, but he's managed to get back on top again.

17:01And he's at least in the position to try again. I agree with you, I don't think everything's going to be hunky-dory for him from now on, and I don't think he's ever going to hit those heights again. but I do think that there's a sense of continuation and some kind of hope that these crazy kids can work something out. Well, that's the thing. It's about all of them, isn't it? Because I'm sure we'll go on to talk about this film, it's about family, as are some of PTA's other films. And this is about a found family and people from broken families or people whose families have broken away from them.

17:33It's this big gang of people who only find love and respect, even, and admiration. In each other. In each other, in this very specific environment. And then it fractures, and everyone has their problems, and those who are left all come together in the end. And it's almost like, and that's nice and hopeful, positive, but it's also almost because it's like they've got nowhere else to go, which is quite sad. So Daddy Jack and Mama Amber have to really take them back in. Yeah. I don't know how the Freudians feel about this film, but they must feel some strong feelings. I mean, talking about Mummy Amber, who's a mummy to a child who is kind of estranged from her and is trying to reach out to her, but she's just doing cocaine.

18:16And then she's phoning him when she's on cocaine. And there's a line at some point where Jack says to Dirk or Eddie at that point, you know, she's the best mother. She's a mother to everyone who needs love. Well, in some ways, yes. In some ways, no. And obviously Jack's an incredible father figure in this film. It's absolutely heartbreaking when somebody calls the house during a party looking for Maggie. No one can find Maggie No one knows that's Amber. And she's sitting upstairs heartbroken that she doesn't have access to her son. You know, it's just awful. The amount of tragedy in this film is so heavy.

18:49But you don't leave thinking, well, that was depressing. No, you don't. Because it's so joyful and inspiring at the same time. It's also quite propulsive for a two-and-a-half-hour film as well. Like, it never sags at any point. No. And obviously, with the exception of, I want to say, Punch Drunk Love, PTA obviously likes his lengthy run times. He doesn't normally do punchy stories. but it does have momentum to it. Yeah. Yeah, it does. It never stops. Do you remember when you were in for a sword? Yes. I mean, I was in a cinema but I remember being hyped for it. I think by this point I was reading Empire religiously.

19:22I wasn't working at Empire. Good magazine. I recommend. So I've heard. But, you know, there were articles about it and I hadn't seen Hard Eight. I didn't for many years afterwards but I was excited for this. I heard this was going to be a big thing to look out for. So, yeah, I was kind of hyped going into the cinema. It was also, you know, a bit more grown up than many of the films I saw or still see. And I was like, porn! So that was a bit of an eye-opener at times. I remember actually being more explicit than it is when I watched it again. Same here. And I wonder whether that's our taste or cinema as it's moved on.

19:54Because the full frontal revelation, the unfurling, as it were, in the final scene, I remember being gobsmacked by that in the cinema. Whereas now, perhaps it's because the other films I've watched this week perhaps have more explicit stuff in it. But yeah, it didn't shock me in the same way. And you're right, I had that feeling, oh, this is a very explicit film. And it isn't at all. It's actually very, very restrained. It's not explicit, but there is forefront nudity in there. There are porn scenes being filmed. A lot of it is more suggestive than... Yeah, it's people reacting to his great big shiny talent rather than showing that for the most part.

20:30In his first scene with Amber, where you just see everyone, and it's so subtle, it's just a raised eyebrow a little widening of the eyes and they were like oh my widening of the lens and a couple of them like turn their heads sideways and it's just it doesn't make a meal out of it no pun intended it's beautiful right but it's done very well the way Philip Seymour Hoffman reacts to it is just sort of quivering just standing there quivering to himself sweating yeah it's extraordinary again much like podcasting just a note I keep mentioning Philip Seymour Hoffman and all the cast but this film I think is the perfect example of, you know, they say there's no such thing as a small role.

21:08Philip Seymour Hoffman is not in this film a lot. And when he is in it, he doesn't do much. It's just everyone from him to the smallest roles, Melora Walters, even William Macy, Don Cheadle, they don't have massive roles in Louis Guzman. But everyone is so fully fleshed out as a character and so fully fleshed out as a performance. You get the sense that every single person you're watching has a full life and you could watch a film about them. And you can't say that about most films. No, that is one of the things that I think makes this as special as it is. I personally prefer, you know, tragic, heartbroken Philip Seymour Hoffman.

21:40I prefer him in, say, Magnolia. But there's no arguing with his performance. You know, he's incredible in this. It's very sad. Yeah. Very, very sad indeed. Did you detect in PTA back then the director he would go on to become? I mean, Magnolia was just, what, two years later? This is extraordinary epic. It's interesting, because for me, Boogie Nights and Magnolia go, had in hand they're clearly the work of the same guy it's a lot of the same cast and some of the same vibe but also it's a massive leap in terms of emotion you know and there's something a lot more operatic about Magnolia and it cuts really really deeply Boogie Nights it's one of my favourite films I absolutely love it but it's not actually the most it's not like an emotional workout even though you do feel a lot of things while watching it in the same way you watch Magnolia and you can cry your eyes out more than once oh yeah but yeah it's interesting because I think as accomplished as this film is and perfect as it is I feel like it's someone who is still clearly indebted to his influences and is still finding his feet as a filmmaker I don't think you could watch that and know that there will be blood would be coming you know 10 years later he completely reinvents himself it's absolutely wild yeah I probably loved Magnolia I don't know about more than Boogie Nights but it really I remember really really falling for it I have the I bought the soundtrack immediately, which weirdly I didn't with Boogie Nights, which is bizarre because it's a banger.

23:09But I just found, I think it was the emotional aspect of that that really kind of sunk its teeth into me. And yeah, there's continuity between the two films. There's obviously a few key cast members shared between them. Quiz Kid Donnie Smith. Quiz Kid Donnie Smith. But I think it is the emotion, it is the kind of heartbreak of Magnolia that really sticks with me. And also, just thinking about it and watching it again this week, the Tom Cruise character was so ahead of his time. I mean, he'd be absolutely raking it in. You talk about podcasters. He'd be raking it in right now. He'd be Joe Rogan huge.

23:49Respect the pod. Yeah. But how interesting that he identified that kind of archetype at that point before it was really taking over the world. And it makes you feel for him. Yeah. And it makes you feel for him. Oh, which I hate. Cruise is magnificent in that moment. Yeah, he really is. He really is. Such a great film. I love Magnolia so much. But you're absolutely right. The PTA we have now is a very different filmmaker than the PTA who made Boogie Nights. And that transformation, that reinvention, started pretty quickly. Punch Drunk Love, for example, doesn't really have any of the slickness of Boogie Nights.

24:28And I think Punch Drunk Love was weirdly, one of the movies in his filmography that kind of gets forgotten. I think people go from Magnolia to There Will Be Blood. And they tend to skip the weird, twisted rom-com in the middle. Alex is looking at me as if he doesn't agree. But I think generally most people will do that. I'm sure you're right. In my head, it's almost a trilogy. Boogie Nights and Magnolia and Punch, Shot in Love, because it's like the San Fernando trilogy. They all have that same environment. That's where he comes from. That's where he still lives, I believe, or thereabouts. And that sort of landscape and the texture, you can feel that, no pun intended, it's in his blood, those environments.

25:10And they're three very different films with very different tones, very different journeys. But they were made one after each other, one after another, and they feel like they come from the same. For me, it was after Punch-Strong Love that he started to become a very different filmmaker. I think that begins in Punch-Strong Love already. Well, it's a constant evolution, isn't it? And obviously it's a step away from the ensemble too. This is very much protagonist-based filmmaking, which is where he went for, I would say up until, and again, correct me if I'm wrong here, but I think up until Licorice Pizza, and even then Licorice Pizza has clear leads in it.

25:45But he stepped away from that ensemble, that huge cast, to focus on Adam Sandler. It's almost a Scotty Jay film, isn't it? I mean, in that it's another sad sack who hasn't quite figured things out and makes a pass at the wrong people or gets involved with the wrong people and has to kind of try and figure out a way to extract himself. It doesn't not feel. It's amazing. Was it PTA? And correct me if I'm wrong, Chris, you would know. Yeah. He was the first director to harness Sarno's talent in a way that wins. And it was because he was an unashamed fan of his films. And there was no irony. He loved his films in the way that you do, Chris.

26:25Yes. He absolutely loved Adam Sandler films, but he also knew that there was more to him than had been presented to the world. And he launched what I would say is the second phase of Adam Sandler's career. I agree entirely. And I think it's this incredible eye for talent that he has. Because going back to Mark Wahlberg, yes, it's a recommendation from Leo DiCaprio, but he sees in Mark Wahlberg Dirk Diggler. He sees that he has the ability to do that, where I think a lot of directors would have overlooked that. this kind of good-looking lunk of a man. And he has this ability to spy talent in people.

27:02And even talent that has kind of faded a little bit. Like no one was casting Burt Reynolds by the time of Boogie Nights. Punch-Nagglove's really interesting because it's almost like a dark riff on the Sandler movies of the time. He was playing people who had rage issues constantly and Barry in that movie is just a rage monster. and yet again going back to Frank T.J. Mackey he makes you feel something for him and that love story between Sandler and Emily Watson in that film is really really beautiful at times. It feels very contained that film does. I always think it's almost like an answer to Magnolia because I think the idea when he did Magnolia is he said oh I'm going to make a more intimate more personal smaller film and then obviously spiraled into something which is anything bar and he was like no right this time I'm absolutely going to do it and I'm going to keep it to 90 minutes and it's going to be really smart and he actually managed to do it and then of course went and did There Will Be Blood.