The Interviews (ft. David Jonsson & Tom Blyth; Asim Chaudhry; Leonard Maltin)

0:14Hello Pod, I'm Chris Hewitt and welcome to another edition of our new semi-regular show, The Interviews, which collects the most interesting cinema-related chats we've been having recently in one handy. place. We're starting off this week with the two stars of the excellent hard-hitting British prison drama Wasteman. They are, of course, the wonderful David Johnson, who plays a young man called Taylor, who is on the verge of parole, and Tom Blythe as Dee, a new cellmate whose volatility may jeopardise Taylor's impending freedom. Cal McMahon's debut film is an eye-opening look at the British penal system and also an incredibly tense thriller, Shawshank It Ain't.

0:56I caught up with Johnson and Blythe on Zoom yesterday, Thursday, for a really interesting conversation about prisons, reform, no-holds-barred auditions, acting in a tiny cell, and more. Really enjoyed this one. Hope you do too. Enjoy. Jesus Christ, this film. I mean, it is extraordinary. It is a tough sit, a tough watch, but I think it's a very, very important movie at this point in time. Is that kind of how it lodged it in your minds as well? When you read a script at first, you kind of don't, I don't, I can speak for myself, you don't think about the wider implications of what it might mean societally or politically or just in community.

1:44You kind of go like, is this something that excites me? Is it a part I haven't played before? Is it something that's going to stretch me and then when you're making it and especially once you see it you realize the impact it can have um and that's been the case for me i think i just fell in love with the script as a script and the character as a character and then having seen it now i'm like wow this is really this is a meaningful film um it can and will hopefully change some lives um so that's just like the cherry on top you know yeah yeah absolutely and david what about yourself no you listen you know you you you um you only hope don't you you only hope that this film can do something bigger than entertain i mean i believe this film has always been a freedom ride from the scripts you know i came in contact with the script quite a long time ago actually and had a read of it and and thought it was brilliant but i think that what yeah what you hope is that there's something bigger here and i think when we were filming it we can feel it and i think when we just you know as we started to do the prep process as we can feed it.

2:43And now we've kind of got something that I think I'll speak for everyone when I say we're quite proud of this film. We're proud that we made a film about people. We made a film about society. And beyond that, everything else you get for free. So I think we're very proud of this movie. It is a movie that, from my point of view, just made me really despondent about the prison system in this country. People don't have a chance in this system. has it made you feel similarly or what were your feelings on the penal system in this country before you started and did those change over time I mean my most of my my exposure to it comes from documentaries films TV I'm not a few people who have done it at the time I but even that you don't really ask questions because you don't want to pry you know it's just generally the culture of that that thing that you don't ask someone unless they unless they offer it up right um but to to then delve into it in such a deep way we kind of did have to do some like documentary kind of investigation of our own um and it is probably the most i've ever delved into anything really because it is such a specific subculture in itself um i think i've come away with a a two-part feeling about the process which was everyone we've spoken to who is involved in in either like switchback in the charity and prison leavers or people who have been inside themselves every person who's seen it has said how real it feels which is this double-edged sword because you go oh i'm glad we did it justice i'm glad we told your story truthfully but then you look at the story of dean taylor and how tragic and violent and and problematic it is and you go i wish it wasn't like i wish what we'd done wasn't real in a way because in because the reality of that is that real people are being affected and like having their lives worsened instead of actual rehabilitation happening yeah it's so it's so hard isn't it because yeah i think i think our film i don't think it i really don't think it poses any answers i don't think it and actually i don't think it even i don't think it gives any accusations i think it only there's no judgments necessarily honestly there isn't and that's that's okay some films can do that and sometimes that's entertaining that's awesome but that's not what our film does i think it's just questions like I think about my mum my mum was a police officer for 10 years and yeah she'd come home and tell me stories about you know this person that person that young person who had it all ahead of them they're throwing it away and then kind of doing this movie you kind of see like oh god like it's really hard on both sides like I even think about some of the officers that play you know our custodian shall we say in the movie and I'm like bloody hell they're overworked do you know what i mean it's it's it's a really um yeah i think it's just nice that we were able to shine a light hopefully with zero judgment let's let i like those films that make you think and make you just go what can life be what is life what are we putting our taxes towards because that's what that's what it is we're all contributing to it so i just think it's worth the conversation i think i'm so on that i think i'm so much more interested in films that pose questions instead of posing answers because i actually don't think it's the job of like i always think storyteller is such a wanky wanky uh title but like it's you know for this purposes of this conversation storytellers and artists and people who make film and tv i don't necessarily think it's our job to try and get on a pedestal and tell people how to fix things like that's what we pay taxes to to elected officials for but i do think it is our job to hold a mirror up and ask questions and go i think we have a problem here's what it is we're going to shine a light on it and then and then you open a discussion and then we all get to decide as a society how you fix it, I think, right?

6:25Totally, totally. But that's not why you got into it. You got into it because this is an extraordinarily compelling story and these are incredible characters. And David, you mentioned there that your first encounter with this movie was a few years ago now because you auditioned years ago for this movie. And you auditioned for Dee, right? Yeah, back in the day. And by the way... I won't have a school. Jesus Christ no no you know what yeah no he's back he's back to B &D again by the way oh yeah I did you know I mean I got my girlfriend at the time to draw like a tattoo on my neck and I went off into this room and I with the casting director and I thought you know we kind of came to blows and I thought I nailed it I did a really good job and then I heard nothing I've got to interrogate that first of all before you go on sorry you came to blows with the casting director yeah do you know what sometimes you've got to haven't you am i the only one it was just it was you know i'm not gonna lie it was a very heated audition and and by the way you know it actually holds part part true to what this film what we the film that we end up making it's a you know it was it was very just we had to remain true in whatever it was so it's all about being the real person so anyway i tried my best to do that and then i heard anything nothing so i don't know if i even did a good job but what happened was the film just fell apart um you know i always say making movies is like really hard um and on even talking to you now on this this film podcast it is you guys know more than anything every movie that gets made like deserves a medal because it's heroic act of like community and you know and and perseverance anyway the film kind of came back around and obviously the second i started to gain maybe a little bit of urgency you chase the projects that feel like they meant something to you and then when cow and i met up again it we we looked at it from an entirely different perspective and i thought and he actually he said actually i think you should play taylor i think it would be a different you know he wanted the characters actually meant to be much more older than me but i thought in the same way like you know films like after some the reason why it was so much more urgent is because it was a younger man like trying to take care of his daughter and and i thought that couldn't be applicable here so we did that and then we found the missing piece which is the Tom because no one can do D like Tom did D do you know what I mean and my one would have been alright but yeah how were you doing D by the way was it different from Tom hey do you know what that'll be my next movie just tune in you'll see that it looks like it comes to D exactly exactly if you can't beat him join him Tom how did you get involved in and did you throw a chair at the casting director or come to fisticuffs with anyone I do have a story about that particular casting director but that's for a different day there we go Okay Reminded me on that Who's this casting director?

9:14Reggie Cray What's going on? Yeah, yeah, yeah One of the creators He shall not be named He shall not be named I can look it up No, a lovely casting director But have a colourful A colourful History That's cool They're known for being like For getting a good performance Out of you By throwing out Okay But No, I I just had a meeting I had a meeting with With Cal and Sophia Quite a while ago when it was first or maybe not first but kind of started to try and get off the ground and then it i didn't hear anything um for a while and then out of nowhere i was in the middle of filming this other film playing clothes and and cal came back like a year and a half later and said we never ended up making that film we'd still love to to kind of have a chat with you about it and we had a meeting and and it kind of transpired that he had some doubts about whether or not i had had d in me um and i later learned that that david had been like look i know him i know him i know i know who he is inside and what he can bring and kind of tried to convince cal and cal luckily took the meeting and i and i was able to tell him about kind of my interpretation of d and that i know this person personally and i grew up with with these and and um i think he just hadn't seen it in my body of work yet because i was playing people who were probably further from me than this.

10:36And yeah, I had a bit of convincing to do, I think, which I now, in hindsight, realise. And then, yeah, we got greenlit really last minute and really quickly all came together at the final hurdle. We had like three weeks to prepare, really, to get into it. And so we kind of hustled. Wow. I mean, I think that sense of urgency comes across in the film. But David, by the way, I believe when Cal was talking to you about about tom you said he's an actor let him act exactly what i said you know it's yeah it's it's the hardest thing because i mean first of all tom is first and foremost my mate so i'm going to campaign for him no matter where i am but but he doesn't really need it because he's an actor it's the hardest thing about being an actor and i use that with like an actor with a capital a it's like you spend your life trying to like i don't know we're young actors i think we're trying we're trying to make a body of work for ourselves but sometimes what happens is because you go so far away to different places people go oh i don't know if they can do that you're like well hang on i spent my i spent all my time showing you that i can go to that place in that place what makes you think i can't get to to that yeah um it's it's it's a very it's my it's a bit of my pet peeve about about this industry sometimes it's almost like they want you to be the person as the person i'm like well that's not really acting and it seems to be more that way like getting more and more and I think because of so much bloody reality TV and stuff it feels like and then everyone's got access to everyone online I think people are almost just they forget that they're like what we do for a living is actually when it's done right and what we're hopefully trying to do is like athletic it's like and it's a stretch you're supposed to be trying to like see how big your empathy muscle is to try and stretch and become other people we talk about this all the time all the time by the way this is all to say we do love some reality TV someone I have been talking a lot about this particular show which we'll leave right now if you don't want to do too much product placement but but yeah anyway okay alright I could throw us some names but I won't but yeah it's fascinating because when you get to it when you're both when you're on set making the movie a lot of your scenes are in that really cramped cell and And how do you start navigating that space together?

12:58And does that inform your performances, that idea of being shut in by this really, really claustrophobic cell? I think it's the perks of, you know, I'm careful when I say this because, you know, obviously we want to do big movies sometimes, sometimes we want to do this, but this particular scenario is the perks of not really having too much. Like, we never had, we have no time really to prep. You know, we had a very small budget, a modest budget, shall we say, but we had everyone around us who wanted to make the best movie possible. So a restriction like a tiny cell became like our biggest assets.

13:35We were like Lorenzo, our DP, who's just bloody amazing. You know, he would be like thinking about this shot and squeezing as tight as he could in this corner so we can get Tom, you know, doing something mad or whatever it was. And it was like, because that's the reality, right? These guys actually do live in these tiny cells. So we're not going to try and make it, you know, something else. Um, so yeah, I think, I think our, our restriction actually became like our playground, we were like, all right, let's see what exactly what we can do in this tight space and for the days and the time that we had, you know, sometimes we shot like seven scenes in a day.

14:09Do you know what I mean? It was like, there was just no time. Mitch meant that me, Tom and I were always on, always prepared. I think we just, we stayed in it the whole time. and then once the cameras were yelled cut and and that's the wrap on the day tom and i would be like i just gotta have a pint i mean because we've done our days work so yeah man we actually quite liked it yeah i'm i'm generally like i think the same for you i'm generally not uh like a method actor um in quotes whatever that even means it's been bastardized a little bit but um i generally don't feel the need to stay in character all day every day i can't make and choose when but this i think because of the nature of the limitations and how quick we had to move and the fact that we were like hopping in and out real quick and sometimes we had like 20 minutes to get a scene and we just went handheld and running around it i i stayed in a lot you stayed in a lot and actually for the majority of the the four weeks we were shooting both of us stayed in character um and it was it was a fascinating experiment because i actually think the boundaries and the limitations and how little we had to work with spatially and time-wise actually made us work in a different way that was really exciting.

15:21Because we had to. It wasn't a creative woo-woo choice. It was like we actually have to just so that we're not wasting time. We have to stay in character so that we're always ready. Which for me, I was like, oh, that's opening up a new way of working, which I like. It's interesting as well, because again, I think you're obviously right. Method acting has been the concept of it's been a bit bastardized and people's understanding of it is, I think, fairly basic these days. So I'm not suggesting for a second that when you were in character as Dee, you were violent and combustible. But did that make you different to be around a little bit?

15:56Because you guys are mates. But were you able to be matey with each other in that moment, given the antagonism between the characters? It's funny. I feel like at the start of the day, we'd come in and we'd be all pally for five minutes. And then we'd go into our little tiny trailers, get ready, come out in costume, and then almost wouldn't be David and Tom for the rest of the day. But then on the final wrap of the day, we go in, take our makeup off, well, the tattoos stayed on for the whole time, but take our bruises and our costumes off, and then we'd be David and Tom again. And it was this really weird but really quite fun experiment in kind of doing like partial, I hate the word method because it just means so many different things, but like partial method acting in the sense that we were staying in it for a lot of the day and then we got to debrief at the end of the day um you know what i think as well i think i think a lot of the time as actors you always you know you spent you get you get asked to do something and you get you know you find you talk to the director you meet the team and then you find yourself on set and sometimes you're meeting your co-star for the first time on the day or in rehearsals you're like sussing them out and they're kind of sussing you right you're like how far can i actually push this and sometimes i don't ask that question and sometimes I do because I want to be I don't want to be you know what I mean I want to make sure we're both getting the scene and I look good if you look good right but the wonderful thing about our film is that Tom and I had that trust so it meant that when he needed to go and do whatever he needs to do I don't think he needed to ask me permission he wasn't trying to suss me out so it meant that he can like quite literally swing from the bars and I'll be fine with it in fact in fact I embrace it do you know what I mean so I think that that that really helps making our movie like yeah so just basically I just want to work with my mates

17:42Cal encouraged it I don't know what he said to you but to me it was like he was like go for it he said I want you to come in I don't want you to torment the crew but I want you to I want the air in the room when you come in to feel like nobody quite knows what's going to happen he was like i wanted to feel like slightly on the on the edge like on a knife's edge um which the last few days was hard because you are getting to know the crew you're getting to me and david like knew each other but we're getting to know each other more and and very quickly you suss out that oh they've like me and david work the same way have the same mo the crew is like here for the right reasons so they want to see like exciting shit happen um and so yeah permission was given and I think we both took it and ran with it and it created a really like lot of friction on set in a good way in a healthy yeah exciting way On that note, David, Tom, thanks very much indeed Chris, thank you so much, a pleasure as always Okay, that was Tom Blythe and David Johnson talking about Wasteman which is in cinemas right now, we gave it four stars well deserved, go along and check it out Also in cinemas right now is Gore Verbinski's first film in a while, good luck, have fun Don't Die!

18:51It's a genre-bending flick that sees Sam Rockwell, claimed to be a time-traveller from the future, who must recruit a motley crew from a diner with one simple goal, to save the world from an impending AI apocalypse. One of the crew that Rockwell recruits is Scott, played by the excellent Asim Chowdhury, best known for his role as Jabadi G in People Just Do Nothing. I caught up with Asim on Zoom yesterday. It was a busy day yesterday. And we talked about AI, working with Rockwell, Asim's time on Taskmaster, group chats, and more. Ton of fun this one. Enjoy. Asim Chowdhury, welcome to the Emperor Podcast.

19:30How are you, sir? I'm good. How are you? Yeah, not too bad, not too bad. You drinking water at the moment? That's why you're lifting the water to your lips? A little espresso. Oh, espresso. Because it's 3.30 in the afternoon and you need that sort of punch to get you through the rest of the day. exactly i think i'm on my third one but it's all good it's all good you know it's all it's all fuel or fuel for the machine it's all grist for the mill uh so good luck have fun don't die is uh out this week uh it's an absolute mindfuck of a movie just saying actually that's a great word to start on mindfuck because when we were watching the film in germany obviously at that for the film festival um they had german subtitles on and that's how i learned that mindfuck in english it means the same in german it just it translates to mindfuck um and zazie beats who's american german i confirmed it with her as well so that's you learn something new every day so mindfuck which you know it sounds german anyway but i mean you know yeah mind fuck yeah mind fuck maybe it is the original german who knows but yeah i think mind fuck is a great word for it um yeah it is a bit of a mind fuck it's uh it's out there it's definitely out there it is it is out there uh and was the script when you read it for the first time you know was that a mind fuck uh for you you know figuring out what the hell's going on and all that sort of stuff yeah definitely i mean i think you know matthew robinson the writer who i have to say is a brilliant writer and even even more brilliant person he is a real british comedy connoisseur so most of our when we were out in cape town filming it most of our chats were around british comedy around the office and you know spinal tap i mean i know spinal tap's a british comedy but you know what i mean that mockumentary he showed you know but obviously you know he he started watching people just doing nothing when we were out there and he was like oh my god dude um but he's a real really good writer when i i mean i always do a kind of 10 page test on a script when i get a script you know give it 10 pages if it hasn't hooked you in then or you know it doesn't even have to be hooky just like what's the writing like what are the characters like i knew sam rockwell was playing the man from the future so for the first 10 minutes of that film that brilliant monologue i just picture sam rockwell you know one of the greats doing that and then i thought fucking hell this is gorg babinski you know the set piece design the direction is going to be bonkers and then with the sharp writing i thought i have to be in you know like this is an honor so um yeah really good script um very ambitious uh but i think they i think they pulled it off you know i'm quite proud of the film.

22:20I'm guessing in the first 10 pages of Matthew's script nobody else speaks really apart from Sam because it's just he's going at it hell for leather from the minute he gets on screen and your character Scott is a passive observer in this diner at this point going what the hell is this guy on so were you thinking alright I'm in just because this monologue's too good or were you waiting did you then read another 10 pages to see how Scott turned out before he went yes yeah i think so i mean for the first 10 pages i was kind of in already because i thought it's got some you know brilliant commentary on ai and what's happening to our world within the first 10 minutes but it's done in a way that's not preachy it's done in a way that you know a little bit of sugar helps the medicine go down so i think it's you know and then obviously you close your eyes you think of sam rockwell doing that and you think bloody hell it's going to be you know it kind of gives me the energy of like beetlejuice kind of mixed with um you know rick and morty he's got that it was that energy it just i mean just watching him do it in person um absolutely unbelievable and i tell you what you know they say don't meet your heroes meet sam rockwell if you get a chance an absolutely wonderful man so talented so humble you know he's always known for playing kind of supporting actors right and being you know and stealing every scene but it was an honor to watch him lead us because he really was our leader him and gore you know they really uh they really led us so yeah i mean those first 10 pages unbelievable and it was just an honor to watch a master at work really because you know sometimes i moan if i've got a two or three page scene you know i'm like oh for fuck's sake um this guy's doing you know 10 11 pages flawlessly and not just that you know gorg vivinsky i truly believe is one of the greatest set piece directors of our time i mean i mean obviously this man did pirates of the caribbean and the best ones as well every single thing is timed every single detail is is intentional and you know it is it was a joy just watching gore as well and he already saw the movie in his head you know he was one of those kind of directors um so yeah really impressive i learned a lot you know i mean like i said my character i'm there for i'm there along for the ride you know i'm he's not he's not one of the you know leads or anything even though i think i've got some good stuff and then i'm proud of it but i was there to learn you know as a young youngish actor filmmaker myself who's you know there's some real Hollywood heavyweights there and I learned and I soaked it all in and now I'm friends with these people and I can call on them for things and ask them for advice.

24:54It was an honour just watching these fucking brilliant people work When was the last time you called one of them for advice? You know what, so we've got a group chat and so when we were out there in Cape Town we actually, we all got food poisoning around the same time so you know so we kind of trauma bonded on that and for a long time we we called this movie good luck have fun don't diarrhea so um that is the name of our group chat and um we're i mean the group you know what it's like you know when you work with people and then you know you have a good time and you make a group chat the group chat's dead within a few months right you know this one i mean you know we filmed we did it around two years ago the group chat's popping i mean sam rock was sending gifts you know we're sending silly pictures i mean throughout two years it's been pretty consistent so um yeah i can call upon them anytime now i think we really bonded i think it was just uh you know and the girls as well fantastic you know zazi hayley and juno they really got along like sisters you know then it was me michael sam the kind of boys and it was just a great mixture and i think you can tell that you know even when if you look at press pictures from us at berlin we're being so stupid and we're having the time of our lives and you know i think you can always tell that on screen when people do really get on this is that you know people are happy to work with each other and they're yeah you know so so yeah a real really really great bunch of people and hopefully people that we stay in touch with and work with in the future yeah good vibes so so when you knew you were coming on the show did you did you text the group chat going should i do the empire podcast guys and they were like fuck no they were like mind fuck no no i'm the only uk representative so i spoke to gore last week and we were you know we were every obviously we would you know obviously you know what it's like at this film festival it's a lot of drinking a lot of eating a lot of indulgence so every night we'd go back to the hotel and we'll be in the cigar lounge me sam gore zazie everyone and gore will be kind of talking about because gore's really into like british comedy and people just nothing and he was quite intrigued about how we did marketing for people's just i mean i told him you know we'd stayed in character for years and we did all these different things and we had in character social medias that everyone thought was real you know very different but he was like man he goes you're gonna sell this movie for me in the uk because i'm the only one here because juno's in la so i was like go for you i'll do it mate so um also empire podcast that's you know you can't say no to you guys i mean come on you can you can and and many have asim and should, to be honest, go forward as well.

27:31How many group chats do you have? Is there a Taskmaster group chat? No, there isn't because I think Taskmaster, when I did it, it was a long time ago, first of all. It was when it was on Dave.

27:48My Taskmaster group, I wouldn't say we were best mates. I felt like we were so different, all of us. You would never ever catch us in the same me and russell because we're both comedians like you know traditional comedians you know i mean tim vine amazing guy very weird in the in the most wonderful way lisa is always bonkers and it's very quirky so no we didn't have a group chat but we got on but i wouldn't say also it's weird with taskmaster because you do all your tasks on your own right and then you do some together and then you do the studio stuff which is like really rushes two shows a day for five days three hour three-hour records as well, right?

28:26Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So you're probably sick of each other by the time you do that. No, you know what? I think it happens so quick, you don't even have time to process stuff. You know, they kind of bang it out. But no, I loved doing Tops Month. It was great. I think our season was very underrated. I think it goes under the radar our season. Yeah, go re-watch season six, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Go re-watch it. It's an underrated one, yeah. What other group chats do you have then? i i i mean i do hate group chats i'm not a big fan of you just said you had loads yeah i do but it's i i mean i have one i'm just having a look now i have one um let's have a look i mean obviously you have group chats for different friendship groups but i'm trying to think like in particular work ones i have had some i mean i've got a corrupt fm one obviously with people the people just do nothing boys and their names are all saved in character because i I remember during lockdown, I had to record this WhatsApp phone conversation for comic relief.

29:25And so they are still just on my phone as decoy beats grinder. I just never changed it. Steve's. Yeah. You know, I don't like them. I don't like group. I don't like texting in general. You know, going on this whole technology thing, like I'm very much a, I will tell you when I see you in person. You know, I don't, I don't like texting too much. I don't really, I'm not a big phone call guy. like i'm a very irl in real life you know real life person where do you stand on ai do you use do you use it at all to make your life easier you know what i do um i do use it but i don't use it for anything that kind of any kind of thing that it requires the human soul so anything like creative or anything medical like i've been telling my wife to get the fuck off chat gpt when it comes to medical stuff because it's so bad because it's not real medical advice it's just a collection of google data you know that yeah and then the way that the way that the ai tells you it is so sophisticated like it's fact and it's not you know it's not your ai can gaslight you um and yeah i don't i don't really trust it and i think it's getting dumber you know people say i was getting better i actually think it's getting dumber i think there's so many mistakes it makes I think it's overloaded.

30:45I think it's terrible for the environment, which we know it is But there are some pros for it Like I think you know the fact that it can go through a you know 20 ,000 page document and you know the highest find certain things that might take you hours It can also be great for medical research. I'm all for that kind of stuff, right? Making the kind of mundane stuff that will take us ages, you know things that it can do very quickly I'm all for that But yeah when it comes to anything to do with the soul, I just think it's I think it's I think it's really bad Um, I think it's rubbish because they can't create anything new.

31:16It's just deals with existing data So there's no original original thought from ai, you know, so yeah, I am I think as i'm getting older and older I i'm more against it because sometimes I see treatments sent to me and they're all ai and i'm like Fuck this i'm not doing this like you couldn't even you know, it's just lazy. It's so lazy. Um And technology in general like I mean, I love my tech don't get me wrong. I'm a real tech head but I also think man as I get older I want to just connect with real things and real people you know and it's getting harder and harder so I think this film is a really good anti-ai film it's got good messaging about it I mean in a dark way like I said about you know done in an entertaining way so but it is pretty dark as well do you worry about ai in terms of existential way not just the idea that one day we might all die at the hands of some sort of Skynet thing or are you worried as well like in a career way because I think a lot of people have been talking about this advance of AI recently and how quickly scripts can be generated and how one day maybe not too far from now we might be able to be at the point where someone can come home, turn on their TV go I want a new brand new episode of People Just Do Nothing and it makes it and you have no input whatsoever and it's there does that does that terrify you because it scares the shit out of me yes that's very that's a very scary thought i mean um i would say it's i think it's so i think like i said i think the creative prompts are so bad right now even though like technically they look good like technically the visuals look incredible and all and you know you could i mean you know even i mean you know even my voiceover agent like i think a couple of years ago they said we just want to let you know that you know we we found some chibali g clone voices online um you know like you because you know you can clone a voice you can train an ai to clone your voice and they were saying that you know we are we are keeping an eye out for it and if we need to we'll press legal action i think it needs to come down into regulations and law i think that's what's going to have going to have to happen but i still don't think it's ever going to be like you just said make me a new episode of people just nothing make me a new episode of sopranos gonna be shit like i'm telling you it will be shit even when you look at like the best ai right now like the stuff that's not even commercially available and you look at it yes it will look great technically the lighting but actually it will be shit like the content the story will be shit the acting will be shit everything will be shit so and it's just it's no soul there's no soul so i really hope that never happens but you never know man i think we'd have to protect ourselves with laws and safeguarding in some way because you know it can happen i mean the rate is what if you look to ai what is it the famous will smith spaghetti thing right yeah if you if you look at that where that was like five years ago it looked terrible and now it looks insane so um it's just about doing your own research as well you know it's about you know checking sources and everything and people don't want to do that people just want to be presented with something and then take that as fact yeah and we won't know what's real and what's not and it's it's it's crazy i don't know that you are you right now to be honest so you could be ai exactly i could be omid julili for all you know well hey you can't spell asin without ai i'm just gonna throw it out there oh god here we go here we bloody go yeah i've also got ass in my name so i don't know what that is i mean take that when you will that's not going there uh I've got to go in a second, but that opening 10 minutes, when you guys are in the diner, how long did that take?

35:05Because Gore's got to cover all sorts of angles as well, right? Yeah, it took a long time. I think around probably four or five days, I think we were on that scene. It took a long time, and yeah, Sam was, like I said, Sam was unbelievable, and we did that first up as well to get that out of the way, and Sam's suit was a really, really tricky thing for him as well. He was boiling in it he actually had a cooling system installed into his suit he was like a fucking high-end pc it was ridiculous um but yeah what a trooper man you know what i mean he probably had to get naked to take a shit you know i mean it was one of those kind of costumes don't we all oh sorry you know actually that's the thing though people do that because they're like oh i don't want to get anything any kind of poo smell on my clothes and i'm like what so you get fully naked one of my mates did that I was like that's fucking weird mate yeah but yeah all kudos to Sam Rockwell the legend himself an absolute lovely man yeah like I said meet your heroes if it's Sam Rockwell okay that was Asim Chowdhury talking about good luck have fun don't die which is in cinemas now our third and final guest this week doesn't have a film to plug although he's plugged a few in his time if you know what I mean I mean plug as in kill as in he's killed a few in his time with his words.

36:21He's killed a few in his time with his words because he is the legendary American film critic Leonard Moulton and he has a new book out called Every Movie is a Miracle which is essentially a long conversation between Moulton and his friend Nat Segalov and it's well worth your time folks. I jumped onto Zoom with Moulton who is the author also of the legendary Leonard Moulton's movie guide and is a man who probably rivals our own Kim Newman for films seen in his lifetime. Oh, and he also pops up as himself in Joe Dante's Gremlins 2, which we talked about a lot when we had that conversation on Zoom.

37:00This was an absolute honour. Hope you enjoy. We are delighted to be joined on the Emperor Podcast by one of the most, I don't know how you're going to feel about this, Leonard, but I'm going to say one of the most legendary film critics of all time, the wonderful Leonard Moulton. How are you, sir? Well, I'm flattered beyond description by that introduction. Thank you. Do you think of yourself in such terms? No. No, I'm just, I'm a very lucky, I'm no false modesty here. I've done a lot of things, and I've been very fortunate to be able to make a living doing something that I love. writing and talking about movies and movie history.

37:50And I've had some success, certainly, in broadcasting as well as do you call podcasting, broadcasting? I don't know if we even use that term anymore. And publishing, and I'm very proud of what I've done. But legendary starts to feel a little a little dicey. Okay, okay. Well, I'll take it. Absolutely. Well, from the outside looking in, certainly as a much lesser film critic, you know, it's people like yourself, it's Roger Ebert, Pauline Cale, of course, who I think when you're growing up, trying to break into this business, that, you know, you're kind of almost the North Stars in a way. It's fascinating, because your career is is extraordinary.

38:42I nearly introduced you as the star of Gremlins 2, but I decided to focus on the work instead. Do you know that I still receive residual checks from Screen Actors Guild for that film, which continues to play around the globe? The checks now are down to something like$11.22. cents. And of course, I never did it for the money in the first place, but it is a constant reminder. I'm also on two top TOPPS collector cards that tell the story of Gremlins 2. And I told the director, Joe Dante, that is my ticket to immortality. Well, there you go, Leonard. Legendary. Not many film critics are on two tops trading cards.

39:39That's true. That's true.

39:44Also, perhaps, I'm not certain of this, but perhaps the first film critic, first working film critic to work and do my reviews at a major movie studio. I was headquartered at Paramount Pictures for 24 years, working for the TV show Entertainment Tonight. Yes. So I was in the cauldron. That's amazing. That is amazing. There's a lot to talk about with your life and career. Apologies if I feel fixated on Gremlins 2, but I adore that movie. And in some ways, it may have been my introduction to you, seeing you pop up in that film whenever it first came out. How did it come about for you? well Joe Dante the director of that film uh and the original gremlins of course was somebody that I knew that I first met we were both teenagers uh I was growing up in a suburb of New York City I was born in Manhattan grew up mostly in the suburbs in New Jersey and he grew up in South Jersey I think outside of Philadelphia and we ran into each other in New York City where we were both casting about finding our way watching revival screenings of old films and such and he was writing wonderfully pithy reviews for Castle of Frankenstein magazine.

41:29A great journal edited by almost a Dickensian character named Calvin Beck. Right. About whom many stories could be told, but no one would want to hear them. Anyway, so Joe and I, we were never close friends, but we were acquaintances as far back as that. And when he came west, there was an exodus of people coming out to Los Angeles to work for Roger Corman in the 70s. And a mutual friend, John Davison, came first. And then John recommended that his friend, Jonathan Kaplan, be hired by Corman. to take the place of Martin Scorsese, who didn't want to do a second movie for Roger Corman. He did direct Boxcar Bertha with Barbara Hershey.

42:35And he didn't disdain the experience, but he wanted to move on and do his own thing. So Scorsese said, call Jonathan Kaplan. He's very talented. Apparently, Jonathan got a phone call from Corman, the legendary B-movie maestro, who said, Marty Scorsese speaks very highly of you, so I've booked you on a plane from JFK tomorrow, and we start shooting Monday on a film that he had prepared, scripted, cast. And then John and Jonathan Kaplan recommended their friend, Joe Dante, to come out and follow him, and Joe became the editor of all the trailers for New World Pictures. And those included the films that Corman acquired for U.S.

43:29distribution like Bellini's Amarcord and other prestigious foreign films. And then they called for their friend Alan Arkish. And Alan and Joe Dante co-directed Rock and Roll High School, then fade out and fade in into the 1980s. And I get hired, a fluke of a situation, I get hired by a new TV show called Entertainment Tonight, which is a half hour every night of entertainment news, which many people said, how can you fill a half hour with that? There's nothing like it on the air. And it took a little while to find its footing. And toward the end of the first season, they hired me. After seeing me on the Today Show, which is then and now a very popular network coast-to-coast morning chat show, where I was plugging a book that I'd written.

44:29And they hired me as their film critic. And to make a very long story, very short, I saved it 30 years. But toward the beginning of its run, it was white-hot. It was a really popular show. and I had the the spricky dicey assignment of reviewing a film called Gremlins made by my old pal Joe Dante and I didn't like the film he filled it with in jokes for all his film buff friends and I just which I liked which I enjoyed but I I thought the film was kind of mean-spirited. And if I'd been on a newspaper staff, I would have recused myself from reviewing that movie. But I was the only film critic at Entertainment Tonight.

45:29And I debated, should I soft-pedal my feelings? Should I try to hide my reaction to the film? And I figured, no, I can't do that. Then I lose my credibility. so i said what i've thought about moving that caused a kind of a rift between us which i fully understand who likes to be criticized right i don't like to be criticized yeah uh but it caused a little rift and uh a couple years went by and then his producing partner mike finnell called me so we're doing a sequel gremlins 2 where the gremlins invade a tv network and one of the shows they come in and disrupt is a movie review show. We'd like you to be the movie reviewer.

46:15I said, well, I think I owe you that much. So I found myself on a soundstage at Warner Brothers holding a cassette of gremlins in my hand. And Joe said, just use your own words. So he directed me to give a bad review to his first movie in the sequel. it's a unique situation were you worried at all that it might be an elaborate trap no no but I was amusingly dispatched by the gremlins you certainly were the producer of the film none other than Steven Spielberg said he wanted to use it as the trailer for the movie and I said I said no because I felt if we're going to do it it should be a surprise it should come as a surprise in the film rightly so so two questions about that Leonard have your views on Gremlins the first one softened over the years no they haven't have you revisited it the first movie no I haven't Okay.

47:33So are you very much a... In other words, I've left it alone. You've left it alone. And Joe and I are friends again. Okay, that's good. I'm glad to hear there's a happy ending. But does that mean, obviously, you have movies you love? Do you revisit movies often? Because there are so many movies. Or do you find you're very much a one-and-done person, for the most part, with films? I would say I'm pretty much a one-and-done person until recently, when I started doing a host of podcasts with my daughter, a weekly interview podcast called Malton on Movies. For the past some months now, I've been doing another one called Movie Guide, the Movie Guide, with an Aussie named Guy Davis.

48:21and we have fun every week revisiting films of the past few decades. And this has impelled me to go back and see films that I wouldn't otherwise do. Films I remember, but I have to refresh my memory, talk about them intelligently, and it's fun. So now I am doing that. And it's been a very positive experience. But Gremlins, you would not go back and revisit? Well, it's not one that I would race to do, no. Okay, okay, fair enough. And what's the movie that has surprised you most in terms of your memories of it, positive or negative, and then revisiting it and whether it had changed a lot? Everything that I've seen so far has lived up to my memory.

49:19the original Jurassic Park the original well Jaws what else have we done The Terminator I should have a list in front of me but I don't but films of the 70s, 80s, 90s and aughts

49:44they've all held up quite well let's take you back to the beginning How did this start for you? Well, I never had any ambitions to be a critic. My great interest was and remains film history. So as a kid, I fell in love with Charlie Chaplin and then, you know, Buster Keaton and then Laurel and Hardy. And all silent films really got me into this. and um so i was i was primarily interested in in uh learning everything i could gobbling up everything i could about uh the uh not just the past but the uh um the personalities and the uh why-fors and where-fors of how films came to be uh when i was in college i started i wrote my first I went to New York University and worked on a daily newspaper there.