The Interviews (ft. Jarvis Cocker, Susanne Bier)

0:14Chris Hewitt:Hello Pod, I'm Chris Hewitt and welcome to another episode of The Interviews. Slightly shorter than usual this week, but still packed with interviewee goodness. One of the things I love about this job, apart from, obviously, the enormous salary, oh God, is that you never know who you might interview next. Sure, it's mostly a possession of wonderful and interesting film people. This is a film podcast, after all. But every now and again, you get to venture out of your comfort zone to interview someone like, oh, say, Kenny Dalgleish. Or, oh, I don't know, completely off the top of my head, Jarvis Cocker.

0:53Chris Hewitt:Which is exactly what happened this week. Jarvis Bloody Cocker on the Empire podcast. Jarvis is, of course, the frontman of the beloved Sheffield band Pulp, who reformed recently. And a new film directed by Garth Jennings called Pulp, What Do You Do for an Encore, is going to be in cinemas tomorrow, Friday, September 18th, for one day only. Only before going to live on MUBI from September 25th. But if you are a Pulp fan or a fan of concert films and music documentaries in general, then you owe it to yourself to see this on the big screen because it is a mix of both formats. Chronicling a triumphant Pulp reunion show, actually two shows blended into one at the O2, along with a deep dive into the band's and Cocker's history.

1:48Chris Hewitt:And it's all narrated by Jarvis in that unmistakable voice Which I heard with my very own ears just the other day When I leapt onto a Zoom with him to talk about the film His own interest in movies and more Enjoy We are delighted to be joined on The Emperor Podcast by What do I call you for this Jarvis? Because you're the star, subject, narrator of Pulp What do we do for an encore? How would you describe yourself in this movie sir? A person from Sheffield in his late middle age Alright, good, I'll do that as an intro We're delighted to be joined in the Empire Podcast by a person from Sheffield in his late middle age, Jarvis Cocker, how are you?

2:32Chris Hewitt:I'm fine, thanks Good, good, good Well, you were all three of those things as well in this movie, which is fascinating I loved it, I mean, I thought it was a really interesting approach to both a concert film and a music documentary. Is that what you wanted to do? Is that one of the reasons why you engaged with Garth Jennings? Because you didn't want to do the usual thing with a movie like this? I suppose so. I mean, the thing is that Garth got involved and I've since realised maybe I got hold of the wrong end of the stick. But when we announced back in, I think it was in 2023 that we were going to play again, yeah he got in touch and said oh i saw i saw the announcement and you know if i could help you in any way uh just let me know and i for some reason i just thought oh yeah he's offering to to uh help us devise a stage show i don't know why that came to mind but anyway i went over and saw him and i'd just seen uh the abba you know um is it voyage the thing you know i'd seen that and he'd seen it so we we spent most of the meeting talking about how much we'd enjoyed that and um and then he came up with the the stage show that you see uh in the film is is garth's vision really you know the thing of the stairs and the band kind of split into two bits and all that so he'd done that and then you know as soon as we started playing we thought okay you know it'd be great to capture it on film.

4:10And because that is his actual job, he is a filmmaker, not a stage designer, you know, it seemed obvious that he would do that. And we had a kind of false dawn where we thought we were going to do it at the Evan Tim Apollo, which is really the Hammersmith Odeon to anybody who knows. Yes. But then the money fell through at the last minute and then we managed to sort it out for... for the O2 last year, which in the end, the thing that I like about the film is that it captures a weird moment because it was the week that we had released the Moore album, the first album that we'd done for 24 years, and that went to number one.

4:54So I think I kind of very unprofessionally maybe brandish the award that you get if you're number one on stage because I was just so happy. you know, and so it captures the moment when Pulp kind of came back to life I suppose.

5:11Chris Hewitt:It does, but it also does something really interesting which is that you interrupt the concert constantly in the film to tell the story of Pulp and I haven't seen that before, now Jarvis I haven't seen every music documentary but that feels to me like that's a new approach to take with this I can't take any credit for that really, that was that was Garth's idea and I don't know whether that was something that came from discussions between him and movie or whatever but he said we're going to use a lot of archive footage and I thought that was a better way of doing it because I just didn't I don't really like those documentaries where you get talking heads especially when it's talking heads now so everybody looks really old so I just thought okay and then it was quite strange you know when when he said oh come and have a look at the first cut that i've done of this film and um it was a bit like dying i suppose you know like when you die you're supposed to see life flash before you and so you see all these weird bits of clips from tv you know that you've forgotten about or maybe you never even saw them at the time because you just did it and then you had to go and play a show or something so it was it was yeah it was quite a strange feeling to to be plunged into that it's like having your life flash before your eyes but then someone asks you to narrate it as well which is exactly so yeah very strange feeling uh and you know there's stuff like like there's a there's a clip of my mother she died like three years ago and my grandmother who's been dead for like, you know, over 10 years.

6:53So stuff like that was just strange, you know. Maybe you should never see that before you're actually dying. I don't know.

7:03Chris Hewitt:Just imagine what it was like just for you watching things like that and watching moments of levity as well. There's a little preamble to the film that I think people will see when they see the film, which is you and Garth in a cab driving to a gig. And you talk about some of this stuff and you talk about going on a kids TV show and doing a kids TV show with Frank Bruno, of all people. And that's in there as well. Had you forgotten that? I mean, or did the documentary just bring that flooding back to you when you saw it? Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I think it's like I walk onto, it's not a spoiler, this, but I walk onto a pretend pirate ship and two hosts go, ahoy there, Joe.

7:52I go, ahoy. And then next to me is Frank Bruno, I think. Yeah. As a pirate. Yes.

7:58Chris Hewitt:Is that the sort of thing you tend to forget? Because so much mild stuff is happening to you and to Pulp around that time that maybe that did slip through the old memory banks? I don't know. Yeah. I think as I say in the narration to the film it was like my one of the things that made me want to be in a band when I was really young was I thought that that was how you got to live in TV land and TV land to me as a child seemed to be like a magical place, it was like heaven and I thought it was much more interesting than reality. So I think that's why, subconsciously, I think that's why I agreed to be on every TV program that asked me to be on it, because I thought eventually they're going to say, hey, you've been here so much, why not live here?

8:53Chris Hewitt:It's fascinating to me that you grew up loving TV, you grew up loving the likes of Doctor Who and Star Trek, but you studied film as well. So how much of a part did film play in your life as if you were growing up? Or was it all TV at that time? Well, I mean, I would see films on TV. You know, it was like, for instance, I saw Kez on a big screen for the very first time. You know, Kez is a very kind of pivotal film in my life because, you know, it was filmed not far away from where I was brought up. And it was the first time that I seen it as a kid. It just seemed like, wow, It could have been filmed in our school assembly and stuff like that.

9:38And so that made me realize that actually, it was one of the things that made me realize that writing about your own life was a valid thing, that you could do that. And it could be, that was allowed in TV land as well. I'd never seen Kez on a big screen until two months ago, where it was a rough trade. The label were having their 50th birthday celebration. And it was, it was, it was on, on a Sunday afternoon as part of that. And it was amazing to see it on the big screen, you know? But yeah, so TV, I was looking, I suppose to be, you know, of an age when they did actually put decent things on telly, you would see good films and you've got a bit of an education in the, into cinema from watching TV.

10:29Chris Hewitt:Yeah, very much so. It's interesting to me that you were so single-minded, though, about music. That's certainly the impression the documentary gives. You were really focused on music from a very young age. As much as you loved TV land and you wanted to be in TV land, but was there ever a chance that you might have gone into film, that you might have been robbed of a great film director, Jarvis, as well? I'd like to say yeah especially if any producers are going to listen to this podcast and want me to come and make a film but um my you know when I came down to study film it was really uh because I'd been in the band you know the band was formed when I was at school and then I kept it going all my friends went off to university but I decided to stay and carry on and it didn't work out and And then I was really left high and dry thinking, well, what can I do?

11:25And I'd bought a second-hand Super 8 camera at a jumble sale and I'd made a couple of very, very short films. There was no narrative to them, but they were just things like The Market in Sheffield or something like that. And I just took those down to St. Martins and showed them and very luckily got offered a place on St. Martins. But I think I really just wanted to escape Sheffield at that time. And I'd identified St. Martin's as being a college. I looked at where the college was, and it was in Covent Garden. So it was right in the centre of London. I just thought, if I move to the centre of London, something will happen to me.

12:09And I was right.

12:10Chris Hewitt:Yeah, you were. And one of the things that happened to you is that you met Garth Jennings, although you don't remember it. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, he's told me that he remembered me in the coffee bar. So Garth's a little bit younger than me. But yeah, so I don't remember as a crossing paths. The first time I remember meeting Garth is that he sent in this amazing video treatment for the song Help the Aged. Yeah. And they had this end bit where it was like the stairway to heaven bit from Powell and Pressburg as a matter of life and death. Yeah. And I thought, oh, this is great. I mean, I don't know how much it's going to cost to do it, but this sounds good.

12:51And yeah, you know, he made that video and we really got on with him. And he made another video for the This Is Hardcore album as well. So that's when I remember meeting him because videos often could be quite not the best time of your life, like just having to kind of hang around while we got the lighting right and stuff. But Garth, the videos we made with him were a pleasure to do.

13:19Chris Hewitt:Yeah, they're terrific videos. And it's interesting to me that he remembers you. You don't necessarily remember him. But that says to me, Jarvis, that you were cutting quite the figure. What was Jarvis Cocker like back then? What would people have seen when you were serving coffees and whatnot? College. Well, when I went to St. Martin's, it was 1988. So the acid house thing was on. So, you know, the song sort of freeze and whiz comes from going to a rave. I think it was in the summer of 1989. And so I really got into that and thought it was going to cause a complete change in society. so I started to dress the part so I do know that I went to college at one point with quite big flares and a poncho that I'd bought from Camden Market so he probably just thought who is this and I'd stopped wearing glasses I made a kind of decision that when I moved to London I was not going to wear glasses anymore so I had contact lenses and I had a kind of almost like a bob haircut I suppose so what the hell is this you lodged in his memory I've got to go in a second but in the film you document as you say your 566th show as Pulp do you have memories of that show in particular because it was filmed or well we played two nights I remember that the first night I wasn't completely satisfied with our wide-performed i can't remember why now but you sound in great voice man thanks thanks and then the second night was really good and i think most of the live footage in the film is taken from that second night okay but after what i i don't really remember anything about shows unless something goes really wrong but i do remember i've been quite concerned about playing at the o2 because i've been to shows there and felt like it's too big and you can't really get any kind of intimacy there yeah but i i remembered that i felt good on stage and i felt like the audience was really involved in it like i could really hear them singing along and and and they were very present so that was a good thing about it but then the best thing for me was it also happened to be my first uh wedding anniversary that night so my wife was there and after the second concert we got in a boat and we went home along the thames and that was a really magical thing to do it was like you know just going along the river uh leaving the o2 in the in the background and just traveling back and it was like i thought um yeah it was just like a a magical thing so i'll always remember it for that reason oh that is beautiful was it an uber boat or did you have a pulp boat, a special pulp boat to take a year.

16:21It was a special boat just for me and her and actually my manager. It was just a really nice thing to do.

16:30Chris Hewitt:That is beautiful. On that note, I'm going to let you go, but Jarvis Cocker, it's been an absolute pleasure. Thanks so much for joining us. Thank you. Okay, that was Jarvis Cocker and Pulp, What Do You Do for an Encore is, as I said, going to be in cinemas this Friday, September 18th, for one day only. So catch it if you can. This is hardcore. Next up we have Susan Beer, director of the long awaited sequel Practical Magic 2, which is in cinemas right now. The Danish filmmaker has worked with both of Practical Magic's witches in chief, Sandra Bullock and Nicole Kidman in the past, and teams up with them again on the Supernatural sequel.

17:09Chris Hewitt:We sent along Helen O 'Hara to have a natter with beer in a London hotel room just the other week, and here are the results. Enjoy. Tell me about how all this happened. Are you a fan of the original or is it because you've worked with these leading ladies before? I think it's because I've worked with the leading ladies before. And I actually had not seen the first one when they approached me. And so they approached me and I was like, okay, let me look at it. And then I had a lot of fun with the first one. And I was like, okay, how do we actually build on that? And there was a script, but there was also a lot of things from the first movie that needed to kind of like Easter eggs and needed to be integrated into the movie.

18:01So it was like standing on the top of the first one and then trying to figure out, like, how do you do it contemporary? Because the one is really of its time. And I think that's also part of the deliciousness about it, is that it has a kind of almost like innocence that was quite characteristic for that period. And so how do you maintain something inaccurate without seeing overtly earnest or without seeing overtly naive? And that was a kind of a proper challenge. Right, yeah, I imagine. Because, I mean, you have obviously stuff to draw on, like you say, from the first movie. You've got the sequel book, the Book of Magic as well, which I guess was, it's not a model for this film, but it's something else to draw.

18:56It is. It is. I mean, it is kind of built on that book loosely to a point. Loosely, yeah. But it's bringing in, I guess, all those elements and trying to find the right, well, alchemy, I guess, magic. Well, any movie is alchemy. But this one needed particularly magic. But I think what kind of, I think was the solution in a way is a new generation because the new generation, there was like an organic, automatic story that kind of seemed natural to go along with. And then, like, how do you have that storyline and still maintain the original generations? Because, you know, Kylie's story, like, the next generation take us to London, and how do you do that?

19:54And can you take only one sister to London, have one sister stay in America without completely losing track of everybody? So it was a bit of a puzzle to make it work, yeah. Both sisters, definitely, in terms of Sally and Gillian, both go to London. And it's that chemistry, I think, between Sandra Bullock and Nicole Kidman that is so beloved, I think, in these films. Yes. I think there's something, I think especially in the 90s, but even now, we rarely see two A-list female stars together in one film, because there tends to be room for one female star in any film, and then everybody else is a man.

20:30But there's something so freeing and so inspirational, I think, about the two of them together. I agree with you. And also they have, I mean, they're very, very different, but they do have a very distinct chemistry together. They, I actually think that they meet in a space where they're very young, the two of them. Like, where they are kind of, where they have a lot in common is some kind of childlike sort of teenage-like space. And it was, I mean, it was literally having to deal with two teenagers with them on set. No, but it was also interesting because I think it's visible in the scenes. I think, you know, you could, like my favorite scene is the scene in the bedroom in London, actually.

21:18I love that scene. And I think in that scene, you, yes, they're grown up, but you also feel that it's exactly the same thing that they've done for years. And the same, the actual words would have been different, but the scene could have played out 20 years earlier. Absolutely. I mean, you know, they look the same, but also just that energy is the same. And it's nice to see Nicole playing something so funny because she's a very, very gifted comedic actress, but she does so much incredible drama. And Sandra, I think, has a very different comedy style, but like slightly drier and slightly more reserved, certainly in this film.

21:59but is also just they're great together. I just love that. Yeah, they're amazing together. Yeah. And it is amazing that Nicole is this funny. Like, I mean, she has always, you know, she's always had those chops. But I think because, you know, I think also there is a kind of convention because you're very beautiful, you then don't necessarily often get to be funny because conventional thinking doesn't allow for such qualities to merge into one. So I think she, you know, she has traditionally been in much more dramatic roles, but she is very funny. And Sandy has this, I mean, I don't think, I want to say there are very few people in the world, there are very few actors in the world who have the comedic timing that Sandy has.

22:50It is so precise. It's like razor blade accurate, which is like... I mean, excruciatingly funny. I mean, I don't think anybody can make me quite laugh that much as she can. What about then shooting in the UK? Because you're kind of recreating New England, I guess, here, which may have been a bit more challenging than doing it there, I suppose. But I think it probably was. But, I mean, I was very happy. I love shooting in England. So, but, I mean, we built the entire house on the back block at Leaveston. So, I mean, that was kind of fascinating. I mean, even for some, I've done quite a lot of different things.

23:42But even for me, it was kind of amazing coming in and, you know, at first they built the foundation and everything. and it was essentially like an airfield. Wow. And you kind of came in, and the house, you had the foundation, kind of go, oh, this is going to be great. And then you came in, and all the elements were there, and it was just, like, beautiful. It's amazing. And my assistant kind of cheered up. She loved the first one. She was like, oh, my God, I'm in the real house. I have to say, I would be starstruck by the house. Yeah. Just the house. I was starstruck by the house. That's pretty awesome.

24:22Yeah. So, I mean, did you have, were there kind of like requests from the cast, you know, about things they wanted or didn't want for their characters, or was it a very kind of easy process that way? Everybody just signed on to the script? Oh, a ton of requests from everybody. No, I mean, if you think, I mean, if you're asking me whether it was a kind of, no, this is like, no, definitely not. I mean, it was, there were a ton of requests, but I kind of, I sort of really enjoy that. I do feel in that creative space and that creative discussion is sort of where you find the most exciting solutions.

25:03So I don't really, I think I would be terrified if it was just smooth write, no edges. I think I'd be terrified that the end project would be really dull and boring. I think that in that I mean creative people are tricky, they just are and so I think it is in that space that the surprises come and maybe even the actual truth because they've got a little bit of ownership of these characters big time ownership they've lived with them for 28 years at this point are you sure you want to wear sunglasses? yes She won them, you know, okay. The costumes were amazing, actually. The ants, especially, with just so much color.

25:54Oh, fabulous. Yeah, Alexander Byrne. I mean, and they're beautiful. And they are, I mean, costumes is probably the thing that I'm, in a way, is I always spend a lot of time with costumes. And here it was like, how do we sort of harness the sense of history while still putting it in a contemporary space? And she did a brilliant job there. It does feel like it. Weirdly, so I was re-watching the first one, obviously, earlier this week before watching this one. And it felt like their fashion was very 90s feeling, but on the witchier side of the 90s. you know, there were all those shops. I was a grunge kid in the 90s.

26:41And next to the flannel shirts, there would be the sort of slightly witchy looking stuff. It wasn't quite goth. It was a bit too colorful, but it was, it had a witchy edge to it. And there'd always be like incense in those shops and all this kind of stuff. Yeah. It feels like we're coming back to that a little bit. 90s fashion has been back in. So they do kind of look like, it feels like you've waited until the right moment to make this one because it feels like we're back at that place where these witches feel like a natural part of where we're at. I agree with you. I mean, but we did avoid black except in specific situations.

27:19So they are wearing black and the black dresses are gorgeous, but they are very specific. And the rest of the time they are quite colorful, which is very conscious. Yeah, I mean, that's something, again, reflected in the house. It's a beautiful house. It's not a scary witchy house. I guess you get the witchiness through the herbs and through the accessories and so on, but it's light-filled and airy and just not what you might think of as a witch's house at all. Well, these are good-hearted witches. These are witches that are using their magic for the good. and that doesn't warrant like weird kind of scary elements.

28:07Too many stone cottages and things like that. Yeah, fair enough. Can I ask a quite technical question about lens choices? There were times where there was almost, and it may have been just the cinema I was in, I was watching it at Warner's, but there were almost like a little bit of distortion around the edge, like you were using a sort of almost a fisheye lens at times. Is that right? Yes, yeah. Why was that? Was it just to give it that edge of slight witchiness? You know, we were aiming to have a kind of contemporary and yet maybe nostalgic look. And so we were doing a lot of things in order to achieve that.

28:49And having lenses that do that gave us that. That really makes sense. I kind of figured, but I just wasn't sure if I just picked up on it right. I mean, it's very, very little. Yeah. It's very gradual. Yeah, just a little bit around the edges. I wondered how this kind of fitted into the rest of your filmography in terms of things that you've done. Because obviously, one of your most famous English-language films, at least, is Brothers. This could almost be titled Sisters. Three different sets of sisters going on. But is it something that you feel very much part of your own work and not just a big studio job.

29:29All my work, without exception, have dealt with families, whether they are families where they're born or whether they are established families. And it is sort of my, somehow, it's sort of my preoccupation. I don't know why I'm just, it's not like a conscious thing. It just happened to be the case. And I think, and in that space, that one falls very natural. I've never done magic before. And I'm not, you know, it's not necessarily my thing, but I really enjoy doing it. But I would not have done it. I mean, all the magic is a result of the relationships. It's all about the human beings. And even the level of VFX was completely tuned to be a result of everything psychological going on.

30:23It's not like a huge big VFX piece. although they're asked of, which were fun to do. So I think it did feel quite natural. And it's about outsiders as well in this sense of people feeling out of place and not belonging, not being accepted and that kind of thing, which is also something you've explored before. Yes, a lot of it. Yes. Did you come away believing in magic or, you know, throwing salt over your shoulder or picking up any of these sort of things? I think I probably always have a little bit. I have this kind of thing. I'm not going to say I don't because then somebody's going to come after me kind of thing.

31:02Obviously, I throw salt over my shoulder. I literally don't know where it comes from. I don't even think my mom did it. Maybe my granny. I don't necessarily do those things, but I kind of, you know, don't like going under a stair. What do you call it? Like not a stair. Like a hard line. A ladder. Oh, right. Oh, yes. Under a ladder. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it just makes sense. Go around the ladder. I'm with you on that one. I wanted to ask you about what's next because, you know, film, TV, you've been kind of moving very comfortably back and forth. I am doing, we actually start filming quite soon.