The Interviews: Park Chan-wook and Lee Byung-hun on No Other Choice; Steve Coogan and Éanna Hardwicke on Saipan

0:14Hello Pod, I'm Chris Hewitt and welcome to an Empire Podcast interview special. Now, this might become a regular thing through the year, folks, and we have an absolutely belting lineup for this one. First up, this week sees the release of No Other Choice, the latest film from the incredible South Korean director Park Chan-wook, director of Old Boy, Stoker, The Handmaiden, and many, many more. Based on a novel by Donald Westlake, it's a dark tale starring Lee Byung-hun as a man whose job and way of life is threatened, and he responds with an unusual plan. He decides to bump off all his rivals for a job.

0:53Pitch Black and Pitch Perfect, we gave it five stars. That's right, five stars. and in this interview Amon Warman sits down with Director Park and Lee Byung-hun seen in the likes of course of I Saw the Devil The Magnificent Seven Squid Game and who last worked with Director Park on his 2000 movie Joint Security Area for a lovely translator-assisted chat about the movie I usually say enjoy at this point but frankly you have no other choice Would like to be joined on the Empire Podcast by the director and co-writer of No Other Choice Park Chan-wook and its star Lee Ba-young-hun. Welcome to you both.

1:33How are you? Thank you. Good. Park, I'm going to start with you. This is a passion project that's been 20 years in the making. How close is the final movie to what you had originally envisioned? Yeah, it's been 20 years since I first read the book and only 16 years since I started working on the adaptation. and the version I already initially thought of is very different from the version we have today, primarily because I had envisioned it originally as an American film. And only recently did I come up with the idea to turn this into a Korean film, which seems like an easy idea, but it took so long for me to come up with it.

2:12And of course, the biggest difference for me for it to be a Korean film is to be able to cast amazing Korean actors like Byung-hun who's sitting next to me. I just wanted to ask you as well, You were a film critic before you became a filmmaker. What impact has that background had on the art that you produce, if any? Yes, in fact, the director was first. I was the director at first, but because my films were failed tremendously, that's why I was forced to work as a film critic. So I was forced to do it. So I was forced into it. So I tried to view it in a positive light by telling myself that analyzing and viewing other people's films in great detail will be helpful for later when I'm creating my own films.

3:00But I was completely wrong. It wasn't helpful at all. Oh.

3:07Lee, this movie is adapted from Donald Westnick's novel The Axe. And I know that there was also a previous movie adaptation of the story. Did you feel the need to seek out and revisit either of those to the takes on the story? Or were you happy to rely on the script that Park and others co-wrote? No Other Choice is also true, but in the case of the original... It's the same with No Other Choice as how I approach the other works that I do. When there's an original source or it's a remake of another film, I typically ask the director, should I look at the original as a way of reference? would that be helpful?

3:47So with this film I of course asked Director Park would it be helpful if I read the original novel or watched the prior film and I said well actually it's going to be quite a different film it's going to be set in Korea be culturally very different so probably better not that you don't consume those works so I solely focused on the script that Director Park gave me which I analyzed and studied. I read that after you initially read the script you were wondering if it was meant to be as funny as it read to you. Is that true? As I was reading the script, I really laughed a lot. And is it really Director Park's intention to be so funny?

4:31So I did ask him in order to double check. For you, Park, when you're directing these actors in these funny scenes, is it funnier to you and indeed to us as an audience if the actors play funny scenes dramatically straight? Yes, the Korean drama's魅力. When people mention the reason behind the success of Korean media, I think the response is usually that there are different emotions and different genres that are mixed within them. And Korean media freely moves in between these different emotions and genres. So there was no hesitation in an approach where comedy or tragedy is mixed in in the moments across the film.

5:18But in regards to performance or when I'm directing them as a director, I think an attitude that I wanted to avoid is to explicitly tell the audience that, oh, this is supposed to be funny. Because I think true humor really comes through when you are faithful and truthful to the character. And especially in regards to the movie, the comedy is always paired with sympathy here. I want to talk to you a little bit more about the funny aspect of this, because this did have me laughing quite a bit. Is there anyone either of you go to as an indicator that the laughter, that the humor is working? Like if this person, if I can get this person to laugh either on set or in the script level, I know that I'm doing something right here.

6:02or are you more reliant on you as just a writer, director, you know what's funny to you and that's all that matters?

6:13It would have been nice to have someone like that. I used to actually have an assistant director in the past who rarely ever laughed at anything. So if he laughed, I would know that this is actually supposed to be funny. But since I don't have him anymore, I just ask anyone that I can grab, my DP, my production designer, my actors, my producers, and ask them if this is actually funny to them. Lee, is there anyone that you were proud of getting to maybe laugh on set? And do you sort of have to hold yourself back from laughing at that ridiculous nature of some of what your character gets up to?

6:49There were many. There were so many moments that were funny and comical. However, I was very cautious when making the film that the intention to be funny wasn't too excessive. when it came to making my movements or the emotions that I was portraying so that it wouldn't interfere with the audience's emotions. When I was acting, I was only faithful to the emotions that Manzu was going through. For Manzu, this is an incredibly desperate situation. It's a very sorrowful fight that he's fighting. For the audience, objectively looking from far away, it can look very comical and ridiculous for them. However, for him, it was a very tough war that he was battling.

7:33Personally, after I finished acting, when I'm looking at the monitor, there was one scene that had me laughing for days, every time that I would review it. And it's a scene where he's screaming with Adder, and he's in the car, and in fright, and looking at the side mirror, and making all these ridiculous noises, imagining, wow, what do you really feel like that if you're trying to run away from someone holding a gun? Yeah, that scene is hilarious. There are so many scenes which are hilarious. Park wanted to ask you about collaborating with this gentleman. It's your first collaboration in 20 years, but I know that you guys have remained very good friends and see each other often.

8:08Has he still managed to surprise you? You know, you've known him very well, but when he's acting out this character, this film on set, does he still manage to surprise you? And what about this performance really impressed you in that regard? It's so deportees также before celebrating play of my first season as well with the other nutrition. But something that did surprise me during the shoot is that he is a man of so many expressions. I wondered to myself, how can one person have that many expressions? So I was very much surprised by that. And that also means that this is an actor who is good at coming up with reactions to all sorts of different situations.

8:53He has no hesitation like, oh, can I react this way in that situation or that way in this situation? He freely just performs with whatever ideas he comes up with. And I think this is only possible because he's worked across so many different genres with so many different directors. Lee, how has Park changed in how he directs you over the years, I guess, since the last collaboration? Does there even need to be much that he needs to say? Or do you just understand because you've got that shorthand with him now, having worked with him before, but also having been close friends over the years?

9:29It was the same with JSA in the past. is now always on set he has this very serene smile he's very respected by many people so in that sense he hasn't changed at all however with the other actors now or all the other department staff he makes this incredibly sharp precise requests that are very detailed and increasingly becomes details as these continues so wondering wow the burden of being a master on his shoulders is that making him even more of a perfectionist he really was before but even more so now so he's become increasingly more detailed and meticulous in how he's directing at times when he wears his very serene smile but continues to make these increasingly sharp requests and think wow that's probably more evil amazing um more than just being the title of the film no other choice is a mantra that your character and other characters repeat to themselves over and over and over again do you as a filmmaker and as an actor have any mantras that you like to repeat to yourself either on set or in life?

10:42For me, it's something that I say to myself on set, on every set, but I think I said it way more on this set. So compared to other directors, as mentioned, director part really has more requests than anyone else. So on the inside, I'll be thinking, I think I did a pretty good job, but you're making this other request. Okay, fine, then I'll give it a try. I'll try it once. I don't know if it's going to work or not, but yeah, I'll give it a go.

11:14I think the reason I titled the film No Other Choice is because I realized myself that I use that statement a lot. in moments of self-justification or at moments of resignation. So after I've become conscious of just how often I use that statement, I've realized that I need to title the film this way. I just quickly wanted to ask about one of the best needle drops of the year for me, which is Red Dragonfly by Chiu-Yung Pearl. Why was that the track that you went with? Loved the track. And for you, Lee, what was it like for you filming that scene? Can you even hear the other actor that you're sharing the scene with saying those lines as you're shouting them?

11:53Just an incredible scene. I didn't play that song in the show. We didn't actually play the song when we were acting at the time. We just were told that this song would be playing very loudly in the background, so it's something that we imagined.

12:11I think the first reason is because I wanted to make the song more well-known to foreign and younger audiences because I really love the song. And another reason is that red dragonflies represent fall in Korea. So along with the gecko trees, I wanted a symbolism for fall. And on top of that, the song is just so absurdly not fitting with the situation that's playing on the screen, which was why I chose the song on purpose. It's an awesome scene. It's an awesome film. Thank you. Loved it so much. Congratulations. Park, Lee, thank you so much for your time. It's been a pleasure. Okay, that was Park Chan-wook and Lee Byung-hun talking to Amon Warman about No Other Choice, which is in cinemas as of today.

12:51Also debut in cinemas today, that's Friday, January 23rd, is Saipan, a movie from Northern Irish directing duo Glenn Laburn and Lisa Barros-Dassar, which tells the true-life story behind the Republic of Ireland's tumultuous World Cup campaign in 2002, when their captain, Roy Keane, fell out with their manager, Mick McCarthy, just before the tournament began and walked out, famously telling McCarthy to stick it up your bollocks, which sounds painful and is also logistically difficult. Ireland were eliminated in the round of 16 on penalties, a heroic effort without the talismanic captain, and we'll never know how well they might have done with him.

13:31It was a story that made worldwide headlines at the time, and was a particularly big deal in Ireland, of course. And Saipan makes for interesting viewing as it tries to paint both men's sides of the story. Starring as Keane and McCarthy are Aina Hardwick, an Irish actor who hails from Keane's own home city of Cork, and Steve Coogan, who may be from Manchester, where of course Keane was playing at the time for United, but has deep Irish roots. And this conversation that I had with the pair of them gets pretty deep about Ireland and Ireland's place in the world at times. Oh, and it was taking place last year at around the time of another fairly high profile falling out in football between Liverpool's Mo Salah and their manager Arna Schlott.

14:14So that's where I began. Had a lot of fun with this one. Very educational and informative. And I hope you enjoy it as well. Enjoy. You have no other choice again. Steve, Eina, welcome to the Arpa Podcast. How are you both? Very well, thank you. Fantastic. Excellent. This is a hell of a time to be talking about this movie, which is obviously about Roy Keane and Mick McCarthy's legendary falling out in 2002, because it's kind of happening right now. I don't know how closely you guys follow football. This will be out in January, so it might have resolved this up by then. But Mo Salah, my idol, has currently fallen out with the Liverpool manager.

14:49Very publicly. And that's kind of wild. Is it a nice bit of timing? Have you been following that at all? I haven't. Yeah. I've been keeping an eye. It's more sort of, I've been keeping an eye in it because I'm a Villa fan, But I really think Mo Salah is incredible. And I really like him. And I don't understand the inner workings of football dressing rooms. But I've just been reading a little bit about it. Okay. And yeah, it does have a bit of the 2002. It has remnants of that. It has. I don't think Mo's told Arna Slott to stick it up as bollocks just yet. But it feels like we're on the precipice.

15:27I hope he has a close hand. Because it's a good one to have. Precisely. So Steve, you have him a follow. You're a football fan to an extent, Steve. Oh, that's right. You follow my letters. I teed that up perfectly. I was annoyed about that, actually. Well, I do what I can. I do what I can. But this is a fascinating film because I'm from the north, but I remember exactly where I was when the news broke that Roy had walked out on the World Cup preparations. I was in my sister's kitchen. I don't know if this is something do you remember where you were when this happened was this a big thing for you I mean I remember it all happening the bus stop and seeing it on the news and everything but it wasn't big enough for me to remember where I was no I was probably in the kitchen watching the TV going oh right so he walks out oh that's a bit serious isn't it but I know I do remember I probably remember the mythology of it more like I remember the sticker books of that World Cup I remember all the kind of like the imagery of that World Cup and then I remember watching Brazil win it and I remember not really knowing because there was so much excitement with Ireland and then not really knowing why it petered out I didn't I knew something had happened but didn't know what it was and then probably more formative memories of all of the like the apres matches and the gift grubs and the all the kind of satire actually that it gave rise to for years.

17:01There was a good four years where it felt like every sort of comedy skit and impressionist in Ireland was all about the Mick and Roy dynamic. And I was, I loved, you know, Gift Grub, Apermatch, all that growing up. And that was my Christmas present. I was, you know, I'd get the DVDs and CDs. Really? Yeah. And I remember it was so much of it was about the Irish football team. Yeah. It was rich, fertile ground. It was. It really milked it for years, you know. They absolutely did. but at the same time to make a movie about it is really really fascinating to really get a dig into the minutiae of exactly what happened and paint both sides I think fairly equally as well I know that was important to you Steve that maybe when the script first came your way it was more Roy centric yeah yes I thought it was I thought it was fairly balanced but I just thought it just you know if you if you'd appraise that I thought it was a bit sort of 60-40 Roy and I thought it should be more even than that But, yeah, but I mean, to me, it was just a very interesting discussion about how about Ireland and Irish identity.

18:15And that's what, I mean, if it had just been about an argument in the world of football, I wouldn't have been interested in doing the movie. Was there something, the appeal as well of the fact that Mick McCarthy, yes, he played for Ireland, but he's very much a dour Yorkshireman. And was there a sense of, even though Jack Charlton is, I guess, the greatest Irish manager of all time, that it was maybe a little bit of resistance to Mick? Was that something that you... Well, yeah, I mean, it was more just to do with the idea of, there's still the idea that, although Mick was second generation, that, and you could also argue about Jack Charlton as like bringing in a British guy to sort out the Irish fellas.

19:07Yeah. Even though there's still an element of that, which can, unless you're fully Irish, can be prickly, depending on how you treat it. But all that very complex idea of how you treat the world and how you see the world and what your identity is as a human being and as a person that has a national identity. well a cultural nationality all that stuff to me was what was interesting about it because it made it it made it transcend just the just the idea of a discussion about a thing that happened in the war just a just a scuffle in a way but Aina was it the same for you I mean you're you're not just playing this this Irish national hero but you're playing a local hero for you yeah you're from Cork yeah it was um that all the same reasons as Steve said there like I I was interested in it the prospect of that film I thought like what will that be I found it a hard thing to picture in a way and then I read the script and I met Glenn and Lisa and I was really like taken with their with both the script itself and their vision for it because I think it got under got underneath things in different levels and the kind of national identity level and the kind of the psyche of these two men and also some kind of nuanced stuff that doesn't quite that isn't usually like fertile ground for storytelling on film, things like, as you said, the complexity of national identity and where that sits in Ireland, I think, has always fascinated me because I was really interested in the idea of how we see ourselves as a country, as a sort of post-colonial island of four million people.

21:04Like, where do we pitch ourselves? Do we see ourselves as being able to compete on the world stage and do we see ourselves as, I think at one point it's called The Cabaret Act by Jeremy Paxman in an interview that's featured in the film. And I found that touched a nerve. Like I really understood that. And that's the sort of, that's a broad level. But on a micro level, I understood that in my own life because I always think, I've always felt that push-pull between wanting to sort of please people and wanting to sort of be a kind of the likeable Irish. and then maybe being a bit more forthright or fun-footed in what you kind of believe in and in your own sort of convictions.

21:46And I think the fact that we're making this film now in 2024, 2025 feels really right because I look at the kind of Irish cultural output now or whether it's our sporting teams, but especially like musicians and writers. And there does seem to be this kind of conviction and forthrightness and this sense of ownership over one's kind of views and whether that's political or whether that's in your art. And that I find really exciting. And I think this film, in a way, kind of looks at that. It looks at that in a very oblique way. It's really interesting, actually, because once upon a time, like 50 years ago, the church really was the people, of the sort of governed the idea of what Ireland was, the Republic.

22:41Absolutely. Church and to some extent, you know, the nationalist politicians, it was, but it was quite, and but the cultural output in the last 40 years and where we are now, where it's, you know, that it's gone beyond Irishness. There are lots of brilliant Irish creative people who happen to be from Ireland, who made this big contribution globally to popular culture all around the world that transcends its Irishness in a way, although that's part of it, whether it's actors, writers, musicians. it's now sort of in some ways culturally you know it punches well above its weight as a country globally but that wasn't always the case and it's interesting because this is 25 years ago now, the Saipan and it's interesting because it almost feels like it's a bit of a crossroads where Ireland started to become, if you like, owned by younger people or the young people of Ireland had a much bigger voice.

24:01Certainly, you know, it felt like once upon a time, Ireland was run by old people. It feels like that to me, like 50 years ago, it was run by, and now it feels like... It's already set in their ways, people. It's much more modern and outward-looking. And so much of our great storytelling in that period that you're talking about, I think, was about people being under the yoke of a Catholic doctrine or quite a conservative country. I'm talking in very broad strokes, obviously. But whereas there's something different now, I think there's something quite, I think there's something very liberate. Predates, also the celebration of the Irish culture, I feel like predates religion.

24:45It's like going back to something before that. Exactly, yeah, yeah. Oh my God, yeah. something more elemental and primeval that predates the arrival of Christianity. Well, the Catholic doctrinaire kind of stuff only really came in in the 20s with the foundation of the state. I'm going off, I'm probably going on a tangent here, but I just... No, no, no, I love tangents. ...I'm doing play by the Western world at the moment of the national, and that is the heart of what we've been talking about in the play, is that trying to imagine, trying to almost unlearn a version of Ireland in the turn of the 20th century, in the early 1900s, trying to unlearn a version that we think we know and relearn a version that was before the Catholic Church kind of took hold of the bureaucracy of the country and the administration of it and trying to imagine this time before that where actually there was this really surprising, eclectic kind of unusual folk traditions and practices and way of life especially in the west of Ireland I mean you talk about Mayo which is Steve's neck of the woods and it's been really exciting to rediscover all that and I think I think there's something about cultural output now that is rediscovering that.

25:51Yes, I'd say so, yeah, yeah. It's quite exciting because certainly that I think the church became, because of historically, it was the church was by nature being anti, well, the anti-establishment church that was in England, and therefore the colonial, being Catholic, it was almost like a position of colonial opposition. Yes, exactly. And that's why it sort of was adopted wholesale as just an act of defiance almost. But then you sort of lumbered with all the rubbish that goes with it. Yeah. So it's a bit like when you say, well, hang on. Bitter pill. It's a good idea at a time. Right? Well, these conversations you guys had on set, after the first week, because I know that you were a little bit, not standoffish, about Steve over the first week.

26:46I was sort of, I won't embarrass Steve, I will a little bit. I will a little bit. I'm a huge, huge fan, have been for a long time since I wanted to be an actor really and I think I probably did that thing where I didn't want to come across that way so I said it's better to come across, you know, we're going to be equals and we're going to meet each other head on and I'm not going to be sort of kind of fanboying or whatever. so I probably went the other side of that extreme which is to kind of full drama I didn't want to I was a bit anxious at the start because I thought well Ayn is obviously going to be doing his thing whatever it is to get to Roy Keane and knowing what I know about Roy Keane that might involve him not wanting to be busy mates with the guys playing Mick McCarthy that makes sense to a certain extent.

27:41So I sort of gave him a bit of room, you know. I didn't come up and pop my arm around and go, all right, mate, we're going to have a right old laugh doing this, aren't we? Didn't do any of that. But then I sort of wanted to, I think we sort of started chatting and saying, are you all right? Is everything okay? You know, because I sort of wanted to, sometimes if you do do the old pals act, it can be, it cannot be helpful to what you're doing on screen. So... It's funny, isn't it? But I did obviously, you know, I mean, we did have nice chats, but I didn't, I suppose we didn't get, I mean, we were always really nice to each other.

28:19But I did, I was aware of don't, also because I've been around longer, don't, sometimes people give you deference because of that. And I don't want that to cramp his style in whatever he was doing to get to Roy. you know what I mean so you're going to be not make any assumptions it's a funny thing because it's so you're so enthusing it on the day because you just arrive five days before filming or you know if you're lucky and then start doing the thing and it's such a kind of weird thing to do but it was never in a method way never in a conceived way where you're like oh no I'm not going to talk we had a great time I think it's more more comes out of kind of nerves and wanting to make the film the best film you can with the tiny time you only get five weeks or whatever to make these films and it was that thing of kind of controlling your nerves by going I'm just going to really stay in my lane and focus on my thing and then after a week or two you loosen up and you realise you can do both it's not a literal thing you don't need to preserve some kind of but it was just yeah just a way of dealing with the nerves amazing now you have a long chat about Ireland as well but guys I'm going to let you go get to sit here and look at Ireland yeah it's been amazing it's been a history lesson and everything It's been fantastic.

29:37Thanks, guys. Thank you. Cheers.

29:42Well, that was Steve Coogan and Anna Hardwick talking about Saipan, which is out in UK cinemas from today, Friday, January 23rd. It's been out in Ireland for a couple of weeks already. Really, really fascinating interview. I was very, very happy to sit back and listen to them as well. Oh, and listeners may be delighted to know that Mo Salah and Arnish Lott seem to have patched up their differences, at least for the time being. and on that note that is it for this interview special the regular podcast the regular Empire podcast also featuring interviews this week with Chris Pratt and Claire Foy is out now as well so please do listen to that and keep them peeled for more specials coming your way thank you so much for listening do not stick it up your bollocks bye bye