There Can Be Only Dozens (ft. guests Simu Liu; Ke Huy Quan; Richard Linklater & Ethan Hawke)

34:29and then you show up and you have to do it kind of in that moment and it's kind of this piecemeal like you know you're you're putting you're putting these like lines in your brain just as you need them and then they're kind of just evaporating just as quickly um theater i feel like is a much more exhaustive process where you you actually like get to sit with the words and you get to do them over and over again but that being said i'm sure i'm sure you'll see me on broadway at some point and I'll be like, I got nothing. If you're ever reading off the script. Why I stare of panic on my head? Yeah, if you have the book in your hands, then we know something's gone horribly wrong.

35:07Although you could always just say, hey, we're improvising, we're riffing, this is experimental theatre, you know, this is what we're doing. Yes, this was one of the first things that I ever was taught, like theatre, you know, not theatre camp, but like summer camp theatre when I was like eight years old was just like, Like always play, like find a way to play off the mistakes. I feel like whoever, whoever my first theater teacher was in that summer camp did a, did a lot for me. Yeah. I'm glad to go in a couple of seconds, but you mentioned at the beginning, you were in London recently shooting a small experimental film and don't worry, I'm not going to pry for any plot details.

35:44I know you won't be able to say anything, but it has been, it's been a while since we've seen Shang-Chi on the big screen and regular listeners to the podcast we know we've been long agitating for your return to the mcu uh in the interim after the the first shang chi movie were you ever worried that this wasn't going to happen were you being was kevin keeping in touch you going don't worry we've got you man i i don't yeah i mean i worry i worry about i worry about everything um i think it's part of the anxiety of what we do and and i think i've been i've been a part of like you know things that have almost come to fruition and i've had my heart broken enough times to know that it's not it's not a sure thing until you're so you're sitting at the premiere and you're watching the final cut because i was gonna say until you're on set but even that it's like nothing's nothing's kind of guaranteed in this world of additional photography and um i'm very aware of how long it's been since since the last John Chee and it's because the world, some part of the world like reminds me every single day.

36:49And I think it, you know, I'm choosing to kind of take a more positive and optimistic route. It's like really indicative of just how incredible of a moment that movie was and how many fans that movie has. And those fans have allowed me to kind of continue to have a career and to get to do what I love every day, including, you know, be a part of, be a part of this movie, which which i adore just so so dearly um but um but yeah it hasn't been a long time yeah for sure um but i'm really yeah i'm really excited for this for this next chapter because it you know he is back and um and the movie is without giving anything away gonna be gonna be really huge and really, really awesome.

37:38I think you couldn't make an argument that it's just not worth the price of admission. I mean, for the price that you're getting, you're getting a lot. You're getting Ian McKellen, you're getting Patrick Stewart, you're getting all of these OGs suiting up again, you're getting all these young bloods coming in and you're mixing them all together. Everyone's fighting everyone and uh oh i mean i shouldn't even have said that but there you go um but uh but yeah it's it was just an incredible thing to witness on set i think when it's all said and done it'll be it'll be a pretty amazing movie i am i am super super stoked that you're back and that shang chi is back and we'll be talking again in the future about that i am sure uh but for sure uh in the meantime it's been a pleasure thanks so much indeed take care okay that was simu liu and In Your Dreams is out on Netflix right now, folks.

38:37But now it's time to dig deep into what passes for movie news this week. It is Thanksgiving as we record this right now. Typically, Hollywood knocks off for the week to celebrate Thanksgiving, the lazy so-and-sos, and this week is pretty much the same. They have knocked off. There's not a lot of news out there, but what there is is scintillating. And Scarlett Johansson has agreed to star in the new Exorcist movie from Mike Flanagan. Yeah, I mean, that's a good combination of people. You know, do we need another Exorcist movie, I think is a valid question to ask. But this is a good combination of people if we're having another Exorcist movie, if we're not asking that question.

39:25Do we need another Exorcist movie? The power of Christ compelled it. It does. Apparently. Well, okay, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll buy to your knowledge on that. I didn't have a personal line to Christ. But yeah, I mean, look, Flanagan is a fantastic, fantastic horror director. And Scarlett Hansen hasn't done, I feel like that much horror. So that's kind of an interesting. None, in fact. Oh, really? Not at all. So this is an interesting development for her. So, you know, if you're going to do it, I guess these are the people to do it. I'd be interested in seeing, in seeing Scarlett possessed. I mean, if she's the one who gets possessed, I'd like to see what she could do with that.

40:01Her voice is kind of there already, right? Yeah, that's an interesting take. That could be ScarJo as the possessed... Possessie? Possessie? Well, I say that because I said... We don't need to see another film that just retreads the old, you know, the possessed child and the parents and blah, blah, blah. I mean, there was a trilogy recently. Was it David Gordon Green? No, there was meant to be a trilogy. He directed The Exorcist Believer. Right, well, he did two. Was it one or two? No, he did one. And then it tanked. And then... You might be mixing it up with the unrelated, but very similar... No, well, yes, Halloween, but also the Russell Crowe exorcist movie that followed hot on those heels, which was kind of an interesting...

40:40Was that the exorcism? That was the exorcism, yes. No, there was two Russell Crowe exorcist movies. Yes, the Pope's exorcism. And the exorcism. The exorcism. I like the Pope. The Pope smokes dope. Thanks, Alex. Well, the Pope actually came out this week against AI, against Gen AI. which was Was it the Pope though? Yeah Was he wearing a Balenciaga coat at the time? Crucially He was this was after he met with filmmakers including delightfully Dario Argento and so on the other way So Gaspar Noé turned up Dario Argento was his plus one and Gaspar gave him a Blu-ray of Vortex But also fascinating that Gaspar Noé was invited in the first place I feel like I don't know where that list came from Did you see any of this Chris?

41:25No There was the Pope met Hollywood, apparently. Although I think there were Italian filmmakers there. Other a bunch of people, yeah. But you can watch the feed. I've watched the whole thing on YouTube. There's an hour of the stars of stage and screen and filmmakers meeting the Pope for a few seconds of time and many of them gifting him something. And Gaspar Noe did give him a copy of Vortex on Blu-ray. And Spike Lee did give him a football jersey, as the Americans say. Chris Pine showed up and gave him a coin, which he blessed and gave back to him. A coin. Yeah, he blessed a coin. You couldn't really hear what was going on.

42:01But yeah, there were all sorts of people. Yeah, Cate Blanchett was there. Fascinatingly to me, Darren Aronofsky was in the front row and he made mother. So he must have had some kind of papal forgiveness for that, which is fascinating. Yeah, it was quite something. It really was. But anyway, that's unrelated. But it was just an interesting thing that happened recently. All right. And was Mike Flanagan there with his head spinning around 360 degrees? He'd be okay there. He'd be right at home there. But listen, if Mike Flanagan, who's one of the best horror directors around, thinks that there's room for another exorcist and he couldn't do a worse job than David Gordon Green did on that last one, then I'm all for it.

42:39And if Scarlett Johansson is in this as well... Super good, yeah. It's interesting how Scarlett is heading or has started her blockbuster era, right? I know she's been in lots of Marvel films, but going into Jurassic and now going to a new exorcist film. Do we think this is her starting her blockbuster? I don't think this is a blockbuster for one thing. I don't think so. This would be a smaller, more... Do you think? Yeah. This was not going to be like a$100 million movie cut to. It'd be a$100 million epic. Could it be? I don't know. I guess horror films generally aren't as expensive. Maybe it's just Exorcists.

43:13Whoa. And the S does. He went up to the board. He did a James Cameron. The Exorcist, yeah. Speaking of which, oh my God, we should get awards for segues. there is a new James Cameron movie obviously Avatar Fire and Ash is coming to cinemas in just a few weeks but there's another new James Cameron movie that he has been directing in secret oh my god Jimbo as a renowned James Cameron expert probably the first person that you would go to I would say if you were thinking I need a James Cameron expert I've got a panel of people talking about James Cameron and I need someone who knows James Cameron inside and out who has interviewed him many, many times who has crucially seen all of his films.

44:07You would probably go to James first. I think, what did you make of this news and what is this news, Jibo? I don't know how he finds the time is what I made of it. What is this news is he has I cannot emphasize this enough co-directed this musical extravaganza with Billie Eilish, who is now co-billed as co-director with James Cameron, which is an extraordinary achievement. Co-billied, surely. Co-billied, very good. Yeah. I don't know how he's found the time. He's come back from Pandora briefly to direct this, and it's a music... It's like... What actually is it? It's a concert movie. Yeah, it's a concert movie.

44:41No, it's not a video. It's like it's a big old long concert movie. He was at... I mean, she announced this, I think, in Manchester a couple months ago during the gig, and she said, James Cameron's here, he's among us. He was in the crowd. it's basically going to be a concert movie of you know the tour she's just done which was very very very good it's in 3D oh so whether it's going to do anything above and beyond just a 3D version of the concert movie I don't know I quite like this because obviously Disney have to a certain extent understandably been making a meal out of the documentaries that are coming in December for the Taylor Swift era's tour which is the biggest tour of all time and then Billy I was just like a billion dollars wasn't it James he's going to make a billion dollars on the screen shut up Helen but I love the fact that Billy Archer said yeah I'm going to do one and James Cameron's going to co-direct it with me that is the most baller move of all baller moves I will say she has directed a fair few of her own music videos and she's really good she's not just like oh can I co-direct it please she actually knows what she's doing but you know James Cameron well I mean if you're going to learn learn from the best this is cinema that's what he said yeah so this is a film called Hit Me Hard and Soft.

45:52That's the album title. Yes. And that's going to be out in March. And it's going to be in 3D. That's exciting. I must confess, I do not know Billie Eilish's work very well. As a James Cameron completionist, you will need to watch this. Yes, I am going to delve deep into this. Have you seen all of his documentaries and deep-sea dives? I've seen the documentaries. I haven't seen Piranha 2 this morning, though I maintain, as he does, that that's not his film. No. I mean, does he maintain that? that it's not his film. He does say it. I interviewed him on stage two years ago and he kind of said it was, otherwise he wouldn't have broken into the edit suite to kind of finish it.

46:28When he talks, he has on the record said he doesn't consider that as a film that he directed. Yeah, that's not the same thing. And that means I don't have to watch it. So that's good. Hey, can we talk about how to make a killing? Sure. Okay. Not making a fucking podcast. That's for sure. That is sadly true. But this is the new Glenn Powell film where a trailer just dropped this week. It's written, directed, I believe, by John Patton Ford, and it is essentially a loose remake or at least inspired by Kind Hearts and Coronets, my beloved Kind Hearts and Coronets, the Ealing comedy, where basically a disinherited offshoot of a wealthy family decides, you know what, I'm just going to kill them all, and that way I'll inherit the lot.

47:14Like King Ralph. I mean, he didn't kill them, though, crucially. But you know, he He benefited. He benefited, yes. In many ways, it's the same film. But Kind Hearts and Coronets is one of the great black comedies. Black and white comedies. Black and white comedies. I hope this will be good. My only big note, I guess. Thank you. Not really Cynthia Erivo levels of big note, or was it? I nearly did myself a herd. So famously in the original, you had Alec Guinness playing eight members of the family yes and it was a very fun aspect of the film that he was playing yes all of them including Antagatha like the clumps except better and and this one they just haven't gone with that as well they've just got a bunch of people playing a bunch of people which is fine but then but who would you get like who would the actor be who could play Eddie Murphy wouldn't it yeah he's just said without a doubt yeah this looks good this looks like fun yeah it does yeah Glenn Powell killing people Alex you must be delighted with that why do you say that no reason it looks cheeky yeah it looks like a fun deliciously dark comedy romp we should mention it also stars Margaret Qualley Jessica Hennig Tofer Grace Ed Harris so like Bill Camp good people around good people character actors character actors yeah absolutely Topher Grace which I only realized a couple years ago was short for Christopher yep we could have been calling you Topher Hugh at this whole time he's Christopher Grace yeah and he goes by Topher I imagine there might have been another Chris Grace or a Christopher Grace in the Screen Actors Guild and so he went okay Topher Topher it is didn't say it was an exciting anecdote there you go it's like Michael T.

49:10Washington who is Michael T. Michael T. Washington yeah And he's billed in earlier films as Michael T. Washington. And in fact, in the... What year did they come? 1980... I don't think it was 1984, but the class of 1984, Michael J. Fox is billed as Michael Fox before he took the J. Because his name is Michael A. Fox. Michael A. Fox. His millennial is A. Yeah. All right. Well, that was fun and exciting. Did anyone see the teaser trailer for Sunrise on a Reaping? The new Hunger Games film. Was it a musical? Oh, I did, yes. You did? Yes. All right, tell us about it. It looks a bit sound of music, doesn't it?

49:48The hills were alive with the sound of slaughter. The hills were alive with the sound of people killing each other because, yeah, it seems to be like a sort of alpine environment for the games. Yeah. See, I was kind of right with the musical things. It's like Heidi with swords. Yeah. So this is Hamich's games. Yeah. So spoiler, he's going to win. He is. But he's going to be left a shell of a man. He will. who spends the next 25 years in the bottle. That's the Woody Harrelson character in the original Hunger Games. Right, okay. For this is a prequel. For this is a prequel. For this is a prequel.

50:21But also a sequel to the previous prequel, which was more of a prequel than this sequel. This is the second prequel, but it's actually a sequel to the first prequel, but a prequel to the other films. Correct. And this is also directed by Frances Lawrence, and it stars many, many wonderful people. Joseph Sada? Sada? Sada? Elle Fanning McKenna Grace Jesse Plemons because if life gives you Plemons you make Plemonade Maya Hawke Ralph Fiennes some people call me Ralph Glenn Close Whitney Peake Kieran Culkin he's President Snow this time he is so President Snow has gone from Tom Blythe to Ralph Fiennes and then Donald Sutherland I'm not seeing that progression well you just need to squint ideally completely just close your eyes and squint really hard and we're excited about this?

51:16I'm optimistic I have to confess I haven't read this book yet don't worry give her five minutes but I've actually heard good things about this one and I'm interested yeah people like the book and Songbirds and Snakes could have been a lot worse also a lot shorter but you know sure you know more input very good alright The Hunger Games Sunrise and the Reaping The legendary Udo Kier passed away this week. Alex, I know you in particular were a big fan of his. I loved him. I had an hour with him a few years ago. Did you? Yeah, I interviewed him for an hour for another publication. And what? He was an incredible, incredible actor.

52:00I mean, I guess he was a character actor. But you could always rely on him to bring the weirdness and the oddness and the other world. And he could be very, very sinister. He had the most incredible piercing eyes. He was once called by the media the world's most beautiful man. He was discovered when he was a teenager. He was full of these amazing stories. According to him, I guess it's true, he was born in Cologne in 1944. And apparently, minutes after his birth, the hospital was bombed. And he and his mother had to be dug out of the rubble. And that sort of set the tone for his whole career. he was like an art house darling he worked a lot in his formative years with Rainer Werner Fassbinder he was involved in the Andy Warhol scene the Paul Morrissey films Flesh for Frankenstein and Blood for Dracula in which I believe he did play Frankenstein and Dracula later on he'd go to work with Lars von Trier Breaking the Waves, Dancer in the Dark, Melancholia he was a nymphomaniac he got one of those his own sort of infamous orgasm posters for nymphomaniac If you remember those posters.

53:10The Cupface posters. Thank you, James. For the listeners who need explaining. But yeah, he was great. When I spoke to him, he lived out in the Yucca Valley in the desert. And he's like, I am just here with my dog, Liza Minnelli. I was like, why? Are you a big fan of Liza Minnelli? He's like, I listened to a lot of her music the night before we got the dog. So I named her Liza Minnelli. The first time I saw him when I was younger was in Gus Van Sant's My Own Private Idaho. hope he's got a couple of brilliant scenes you know um river phoenix and keanu reeves play gigolos for want of a better word and and he picks them up and they end up going to his house um i think if i remember rightly he he he wants he gets off by watching them clean his house with hoovers or something but he puts he puts on a show he gets this lampshade and sort of cavorts around the room and sings and dances and it's and the song that's playing is an actual single that Udo Kier actually put out in the mid-80s.

54:06I mean, he was brilliantly weird and eccentric. He played Hitler at least four times, including one of the Iron Sky films, On the Moon. I think Hitler was riding a dinosaur. In Hunters, the recent TV show with Pacino, he was Hitler in that. He obviously collaborated with Stephen Norrington on the 1998 classic Blade. He was in Blade. I can't know who was. Dragonetti. He has his fangs ripped out. Yeah, he was good in that. And he also just, he would turn up, I feel like around that time or shortly after that time, he would turn up in a lot of slightly schlocky films. And he was always really good in them.

54:47Like, even if the film was quite bad, he was good. And he was always worth watching. Whether he was a, you know, a vampire or a monster or a just, you know, just a living. It was like an alien had just sort of walked onto the film set. And then you've got something like Swan Song just one of his last films just a few years ago which was really moving and heartwarming and beautiful yeah indeed I haven't seen it yet but he's in the upcoming film which has been getting a lot of acclaim The Secret Agent I haven't seen it but apparently he was in I think that might be his last film but when I spoke to him he gave me a quote which I think sums it up he says when I have a part that isn't the leading part I want to act in a way that people remember otherwise what is the point and I think he did always do that he stood out a mile what is the point I had the pleasure of doing a podcast special interview with him a couple years ago for Swan Song actually and that is available in your podcast feeds should you want to listen to it as I recall I said hello Udo and then 45 minutes later I went thanks Udo and that was pretty much it, that was the experience but he was a delight and very very sad indeed to hear of his passing the great Udo Kier who passed away this week at the age of 81 Alright, time for more guests.

56:03Kihiwi Kwan, who of course is an Oscar winner for Everything Everywhere All at Once. He was Short Round and Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom and Data in the Goonies. And he's just a lovely, lovely guy. He joins the Sutropolis franchise this week. If you remember, the first movie came out a few years ago. It was a huge, huge hit. It stars Jason Bateman as a sexy fox called Nick Wilde, who teams up with a hot bunny, Judy Hopps, voiced by Jennifer Goodwin to solve. I don't remember exactly what they did, but I remember it was funny and their world is just like ours, only with animals. And no, it doesn't work if you think about it, but shut up.

56:41Anyway, into this world now comes Gary the Snake, who is voiced by Ki Hui Kwan. And everyone thinks he's a bad guy, but is he? I'll leave it to you to find out. But Ki came into London this week and I went to a London hotel room and we sat down and we had a good old natter about snakes and animation and all that jazz. Again, different movie. Enjoy. Anyway, how are you? I'm doing great. Every time I'm here in London, I'm in a great mood because I love the city so much. Sorry about the weather. No, I love it. Don't apologize. I actually love it. I'm not kidding. Going from LA to Liske, really? Yes.

57:22We have a lot of sunshine in LA. So, you know, a change is always welcome. I love the rain. I love the cold weather. All right. What are your London tips? Where do you go? What's your... What sights do you see? I love food. I love walking on Regent Street, especially during this time of the year when they have all the Christmas lights, the Christmas songs, and just seeing the people all, you know, dress warmly with their, you know, trench coat. It's so wonderful. It's so pretty to me. I love it. It's not the weather for a snake, right? Yeah, Gary would not be happy. He would say, too cold. Yeah, Gary wouldn't get up Regent Street.

58:02He would pass out halfway up Regent Street. It wouldn't be good for him. He would be standing inside with his warm cup of tea. Have you been to the London Zoo yet? Because they have a very good reptile area. No, I have not. In case you wanted to see any Gary's cousins. I haven't been to the zoo in a long time. Oh, really? But I guess this is a good time to go. It's a good time to go. And you could say, I am, you know, I'm a snake. So let me in. But I'll tell you something, though. Prior to playing Gary the Snake, I'm actually very afraid of snakes. So am I. Yeah. And I think, you know, after playing him and knowing how misunderstood snakes are, I'm a little less afraid.

58:42In fact, I held snakes during this press tour, and I even had one that slithered onto my arm, and where its tongue was going in and out. Okay. And you know what that means? That's how they smell. Yeah. They smell with the tongue. They smell your fear. Yeah. That's what it is. But these snakes, Kate, that are crawling up your arm, these are non-venimous snakes, I'm guessing. Yes. Gary is a pit viper. Yes, a venomous pit viper, exactly. You do not want to get bitten by one of those. No, but according to Gary, he has his antivenom pen with him all the time. All the time, yeah. In a fanny pack. Yeah, absolutely.

59:22Most snakes don't do that, though. But you didn't study the pit fiber closely as research to play Gary the snake. No, no, I didn't. I think, you know, a lot of us got cast because of how we sound and our own personality. and that's what Jared Bush and Byron Howard, our directors, wanted us to bring to the character. And it's just a fun character to play. I want to dig more into the fear of snakes. All right. So is that something, because I have a fear of snakes as well. If I see a picture of a snake in a book, I have to turn the page very, very quickly. I don't know why. Oh, you're one of those people.

1:00:05I'm one of those people. Definitely afraid. Just in case it comes to life and bites me. You're like Indy Yes, precisely Why did it have to be snakes? You know, looking back When I got to play this character Looking back in my career Isn't it interesting how I'm playing an animal That Indiana Jones Is deathly afraid And also, you know, when I play Oral Boas in Loki Season 2 Oral Boas means a snake eating its own tail And this is the year of the snake Is it? Yes. 2025 is eager to snake. So I feel like it was all meant to be. It's all been leading you towards this moment. Yeah, exactly. But Indy is deathly afraid of snakes.

1:00:50But was Short Round afraid of snakes, do you think? I would like to think he's not as afraid. Yeah. Having, you know, gone on that adventure with Indy, being in that jungle. and, you know, walking in that tunnel with insects and roaches and all of that. I don't know. Either that really gave him this incredible phobia of animals or, you know. Or he's hardcore now. He's hardcore now, exactly. He's a fet. He works in a zoo. He could go either way. He could go either way. We don't know. So working on that film, working on Templar of Doom, were there snakes around? Oh yeah, when we did the jungle scene, when I was playing cards with Indy, that snake, that cape capture, it grabs and throws across the forest, that was a real snake.

1:01:51Wow. Yeah. Wow. And of course, at that time, I make sure to stay as far away from that snake as possible. That was Harrison. Was Harrison okay with snakes? I think he's okay. I think he's okay. Nothing scares Harrison. His character is afraid. I don't think he's afraid. Not when you've been through as many adventures as Harrison Ford. Yeah, absolutely. And then, so, throughout your life then, Keith, did you, have you encountered many snakes? You live in California. I'm very aware of the snakes are in California. One time I move into this new house and I walked in, I opened the door to the powder room and there was a snake crawling on the floor.

1:02:37I literally closed the door, walked out the house and called animal control. But I wouldn't do it anymore. I mean, yeah, you know, like you said, I think a lot of people are afraid of snakes. Yeah. And I think that's what I love about this character, Gary the Snake. Yeah. It kind of paints snakes in a different light. Yes. You know, hopefully people who watch this, they won't be as scary as they used to. True. What I'm hoping to accomplish is, you know how Jaws makes you afraid to go to the water? This movie makes you less afraid of snakes. Okay, I can see how that might happen. So we're going to go to the zoo together, Chris.

1:03:29You and me. We're going to go visit some venomous pit vipers. How's that? You first. Along with battle snakes and king cobras. Well, this is the thing. We keep being told that snakes are as scared of us as we are of them. I'm not so sure how true that is, but let's just say we went to the zoo and we went to see a pit viper. And we said, well, this is key, and he plays a pit viper in Soutropolis 2, and he's a friend, and I'm a friend as well. This snake won't care. It'll just bite us. I don't think you've thought this through, if I'm completely honest. I mean, he won't care if Judy Hopps is there, if there's a rabbit, then...

1:04:19I like your thinking, but then you're... I think we'd be safe. You're endangering the star of the franchise. There won't be a Sertropolis 3 if Judy Hopps is in the jaws of a snake. No, I'm not. I think Judy Hopps will be totally fine. She's way too smart. Yeah, she hops quite fast. Yeah, she does. But, yeah, any children listen to this interview? and I would recommend that no children listen to this interview. They'll be traumatized. What, Judy Hopps? What? No! No, Judy Hopps is fine. No Judy Hopps were harmed in the making of this interview. Let's talk about the voiceover process. Because I've talked to a lot of people, some very, very recently, who've been in animated movies, and is it the usual thing for you?

1:05:04Booth, director, and that's it? Or were you working with co-stars in this? It's a new experience for me. You know, I've done live action most of my life. Yeah. And with live action, as you know, you know, you interact with your fellow actors and that's where you really get your inspiration from. You know, you feed off of each other with live action and you're in a physical set. And that helps a lot. Yeah. But with voice acting, it's the opposite of that. You know, you're in a recording booth with a mic and your director and that's it. There's no visuals to look at. There's no set. The only thing that's there to help you is a poster, a character poster up on the wall.

1:05:49And that's it. With this one, I didn't even get to read the script. So I don't even know what the full story is. What? It was just, I only got to read the pages that my character was in. So it was quite challenging. It was really interesting too. And and I really, you know, kind of look toward my directors for validation. If they laugh, then I know I'm doing a good job. And if they nod, then I go, yes, yes, I should be doing more in that direction. Okay. And aside from that, that's it. What if they look concerned? What if they're like, ooh. You would never get that expression, of course, Kate, but.

1:06:30Yeah, that's been on my mind when there's just silence. when I'm recording. But it's, you know, it's fun, but also interesting at the same time. In fact, I'll let you know in the recording booth, there's an actual bar, a steel bar that is bolted down into the concrete for you to grab onto and move around and jump. You do all of that. You try to emulate your character. You try to visualize whatever he's doing on screen. You try to do that so that you know you get your voice in a certain way to sound like you're either you know there instead of just Standing them and saying these lines at least for me Yeah, but at the end of the at the end of the recording session like I'm covered in sweat.

1:07:18I'm it's physically demanding You have no idea how physical it can get Gary gets around Yeah, he's a very physical. It's a lot of fun But also, it can be silly at times, too, because if you're required to do all these effects sounds, like in the movie, you know, there's a fight sequence to, you know, to do those noises. You're basically shadowboxing. You're fighting yourself, you know. All right. And but at the end, I mean, honestly, I had so much fun. I didn't want it to end. In terms of the physicality of of playing a snake and you're moving around. And as you say, you're getting sweaty. so are you slithering are you crawling is there footage of you on the floor slithering around oh i did that before i went into the recording booth i pre-slithered that's how i got into character how do you think i play them i did notice when you came into the room you slithered yeah no no i'm just kidding no i didn't have to do that uh but it's you know here's the thing I was a big fan of the first one.

1:08:26Yeah. You know, and I think just like a lot of us, we all grew up watching incredible and classic, you know, Disney animated films. And it had an impact, you know, on my childhood. So when I got to call and offer to play Gary the Snake, knowing that I'm going to be, you know, a part of this incredible family, this incredible world where, you know, it's going to be enjoyed by millions of kids around the world. world and and having you know to play a little part in and and having a positive uh impact in their lives uh that to me as an actor is is definitely a dream come true amazing yeah what was your first big disney film uh i don't remember i mean you know i didn't go to the movies until i was very late in age uh my family and i immigrated to the united states you know we didn't have much We didn't have a car, so I didn't get to go to the local movie theater.

1:09:25The first time I watched a movie in a movie theater with an audience, I was in it. And it was a movie called Indiana Jones and the Tableau Doom. And once when I fell in love with movies and acting, but when I was a kid, I would watch with my brother watch you know those you know those cartoons that came out on the weekends yeah yeah yeah saturdays uh i remember my my i have fond memories of me and my brother without breakfast we're sitting on the floor uh eating and you know on the coffee table and just watching cartoons disney cartoons on this you know 13 inch you know um on television uh and it was just it It was just, every time I think about it, it was wonderful memories.

1:10:16And what I also love about these movies is there's so much positive messages that you can walk away from. And, yeah, so now I get to be on this side where I get to be a Disney animated character. It's incredible. And the best part is the merchandise. You know, going to Disneyland Park and walking into one of the stores and see Gary the Snake there. it's just brilliant always a pleasure to talk to you my friend and I'm going to slither my way out of here now I will go right with you thank you love empire thank you very much okay so that was Ki Hiwi Kwan and Sutropolis 2 is in cinemas right now Sutopia 2 in the States of course and let's start with that shall we as we dig into the reviews section of the show Hell's Bells hello what did your young niece and nephew you think of this they were all in they thought it was funny and good funny and good i mean that's the that's the the muzzleload that's what you want that's what you want right that you're aiming for tell us about it yeah so this is directed by jared bush and byron howard uh jared bush i think wrote on the first one but wasn't accredited director as steps up this time um and yes as you said uh jennifer goodwin's uh judy hopps and jason bateman's nick wild return they're now so sexy Cops.

1:11:41Yes, very sexy. They're both cops. They're both working in Zootropolis Police Department, but they remain small mammals in a department that prizes big units. You know, it is one led by Idris Elba's buffalo or whatever. So they're still kind of looking for that second case to prove that they weren't a kind of one-hit wonder. And as we meet them about a year on in Zootropolis time, they have not yet found that and they're feeling the pressure. No. Yes, and they're making mistakes. because they're under pressure because Judy's pushing them to do crazy things in order to make their mark and Nick is being cynical and holding back.

1:12:20And then they get involved with another case that actually comes their way? Exactly. And they realize that this snake who turns out to be Gary Dasnake, that is a family name, voiced by Kihui Kwan, has come to town and may have nefarious designs. Or may not. We shall see. There's also a role for a family of lynxes, who are the descendants of the people who built the city walls and enable all these different environments to coexist, one of whom is voiced by Andy Samberg, another by Dravis Strathairn, for example. So there are really, really good people joining the cast this time. As ever, one of the big pleasures of this movie, like the first one, is just seeing all the ridiculous world building of having all of these different animals on different scales together in one place.

1:13:07You know, just like how do elephants interact with mice and so on? Like, how does this all work? They've put a lot of thought and a lot of visual fun into just explaining some of these ridiculous things. How do hippos get around town? You know, this kind of stuff. It's a bit far-fetched. It's wildly far-fetched, but it's very fun. The puns on all the movie posters and products and just the business of the town is really fun. There's apparently a place here called New Jersey, you know, that kind of stuff. It's very silly, but it is funny. It's really, really entertaining. And the characters remain good.

1:13:41My problem, though, is I think the plot in this one, there's so much plot, and it kind of, you're just moving around all the time when you actually just want to see these guys kind of hang out and maybe ask somebody a question every now and again. And it felt like there was a lot of moving around and solving puzzles and chases that maybe we didn't kind of need. and I felt like Judy and Nick's dynamic they've put in an entire subplot about how they need couples therapy as partners just to kind of work together but they haven't really delivered they don't really sink their teeth into the sense of how exactly they're dysfunctional so I just find that a little bit frustrating but I really loved Gary Gary is a fantastic new character Paul Burt who's the Andy Samberg character is really fun as well I was having a lovely time just hanging out with these people I didn't need there to be so much going on around them yeah it's a little bit busy it's a little bit frenetic but yeah I enjoyed it as you say there's a joke every 30 seconds and if it doesn't land don't worry there'll be another one along in another 30 seconds or sooner and it's obviously very well made but yeah for me it lacked the freshness of the first one but I did enjoy Gary the Snake and I enjoyed the interplay between Judy and Nick and it's like guys just do it already but then it'd be like moonlighting if they did would the sexual tension go out of the movie that's maybe that's probably why they're not you know bumping tails anyway like bunnies in fact indeed oh hey I forgot to tell you at the junket the other day when I went to interview Key they had a bunny room which was a room filled with bunnies and you got to sit down and they put a tea towel on your lap because rabbits tend to poo a lot and they put a bunny in your lap and you just sat stroking the bunny for as long as you wanted but I had to go to another interview so I could only do like four or five.

1:15:40When you said a bunny room I suddenly had an image in my head of that guy at the end of The Shining on the bed with the person in the bedroom. No, nor was it the room in the Playboy Mansion. No. Thank you for clarifying. Yeah. That would be inappropriate. Loads of lovely bunnies. Oh, really? Did it smell in there? No, they smelled terrific and they tasted great. Were they hot bunnies? They were hot bunnies. Oh, no. Anyway, that's three stars. Three stars. A very positive three stars, it has to be said, for Zootropolis 2. Three stars for Zootropolis 2 or if you're in America, three stars for Zootopia 2.

1:16:13But a film that has the same name on both sides of the pond is Wake Up Dead Man, a Knives Out Mystery. It should be called Wake Up Dead Man, a Benoit Blanc Mystery. But who am I? what do I know anyway this is the third movie in the Ryan Johnson Daniel Craig Benoit Blanc franchise it is out in cinemas some cinemas around the country from the 26th so when was that two days ago so it's already out it's already out so it's already out in limited cinemas you know quite a few but not loads around the country and in the states and it will be on Netflix on December 12th but if people want to go see it this week on the big screen Jimbo which I recommend they do, will it be worth it?

1:16:59Well, that is the question. The answer is yes. End of review. No, look, this stars Joshua Conner as the Reverend Judd Duplentesi, which is an excellent name for a priest, also for a former boxer, for that is what he is, and he turns to Christ, but is then sent away for punching a deacon in the face. We've all done it at one point or another. He is assigned to Our Lady of Perpetual Fortitude, and this is a church led by, well, kind of an antagonistic monsignor played by Josh Brolin. He's controversial, he's extremely nasty, he's possibly psychotic, but this all sets the stage for a murder, which happens in an antechamber of the church where no one could possibly have got in.

1:17:35Hence a kind of locked door mystery in the kind of classic form. It's kind of a darker, more gothic puzzle, all to be solved by the world's greatest detective, not Batman, but rather Benoit Blanc. That would be a very different film. There's tons of stuff. There's a missing inheritance, there are potentially other bodies dropping along the way, there's a ton of red herrings and of course a showboating big reveal everything you really want from a knives out mystery except i would personally argue for benoit blanc for while he is in this and while he is as fabulous as ever he has a much reduced presence from either knives out or a glass onion and that's in some ways disappointing like he doesn't turn up for a goodly runtime into this film and if you are here for the Benny B action I think you'll feel a little short-changed however it's more than made up for because this is actually not a Benoit Blanc mystery but more a Josh O 'Connor mystery because he's definitely the lead role in this and he's fucking fantastic so I was I was a little bit torn on this because on the one hand I was a little disappointed that there wasn't more Blanc in it because frankly that's why I came that's why I'm here that's what I want for a Knives Out but O 'Connor is so good in this and he's so funny and he's heartfelt and It's a really interesting character.

1:18:49And the mystery is really good as well. I kind of came up and went, it's not what I wanted, but I quite liked it anyway. It's like being forced to eat your vegetables. It's good for you, even if it's not really why you turned up. But yeah, it's got everything you want. It's maybe less funny, definitely than the second one, probably than the first one as well. But it's a really good mystery. It's got a different tone to it, a different palette. It's much more sort of night-timey and dark and gothic. But I had a very good time with it, despite the reduced Blanc presence. It's interesting you say that, because I've seen a lot of people say that about this movie, that it's a darker, more serious knives.

1:19:22I'm not going to say it. A darker, more serious Benoit Blanc movie. And that's true to an extent. I thought it was also hilarious. Did you? There are some amazing jokes in this. It's more deadpan, the humor in this, than it is. Because Glass Onion in particular is almost caricatured at times. It's quite full-on spoofy. I think this has a much more subtle sense of humor. This is a different energy for sure. Yeah, very much so. I mean, look, you can take the girl out of convent school, but you can't entirely stop her from really enjoying this, I have to say. And I find some of the just priest stuff and religion stuff just very fun and very well-drawn.

1:20:02And yeah, I just enjoyed this bunch of weirdos and sickos. Brolin's having the best time. Oh my God, he's absolutely rolling high. Other people are having a good time as well. We haven't even mentioned the rest of the cast. I mean where did you start? Glenn Close I don't know Andrew Scott Kerry Washington yeah Jeremy Renner Jeremy Renner having a fantastic time and also blowing all of our minds because Jeremy Renner obviously is already canon in this universe a purveyor of hot sauce but is now in it as someone else yes very confusing it's very very confusing and isn't addressed in any way shape or form is that everyone?

1:20:41Andrew Scott we said Thomas Hayden Church Thomas Hayden Church yeah Yeah, it's a good cast. Oh, Daryl McCormack. Yes. Yeah. Very good. Very, very good cast. An embarrassment of riches. Hells Bells, where does this stand for you in the Benoit Blanc trilogy so far? Honestly, I haven't gone back and re-watched Glass Onion, but I just, I had a really good time. It just kept taking me by surprise. I didn't expect the way it was going to unfold. And I get where you're coming from. I really do, because I felt the same way while I was watching it, but I had such a sense of satisfaction at the end because it didn't do exactly what I wanted.

1:21:16And it did just do what Rian Johnson was interested in doing, which I would rather he do, ultimately. You want to be surprised. If you're not being surprised, these things aren't doing their job. It's my third favourite. And I won't say least favourite because I loved it. It's my third favourite, Knives Out. I think partly because of the Blanc factor, but also partly because I think the actual, the dominoes falling mystery aspect of it, while great, was not, I thought, as strong as the previous two. Fair enough. But I did, I thought it was great. And also, I like that it has a different energy.

1:21:45I think it's nice that he's mixing things up. I like that Glass Onion was completely different to the first one. This feels completely again. Long may he continue to make these films. Absolutely. Hey, everybody. It's Benoit Blanc here, just dropping in real quick to say that, yes, Chris forgot to add a bit where he gave my new film, Wake Up Dead Man, an official Empire-style rating. I suspect incompetence. It makes no damn sense. compels me though. Anyway, Empire gave it all stars, so get yourself to your local motion picture theater forthwith to watch Wake Up Dead Man. And now, back to the show.

1:22:29Enjoy now. Y 'all come back now, you hear? Where the hell am I from? Alex! Hello. It's time to ride pillion. Should we carry on with the pod? I say. Have you got a water bike, a sidecar? Yeah. Let's go. Let's do the reviews first, then. Okay. Pillion, I love this film. It's like a gift. I've not seen anything like it before. James, you and I were talking about it yesterday. We were. Totally. It's like some people saying it's a rom-com, and others were saying, well, it kind of is, but it's not Richard Curtis. It's very much not Richard Curtis. No, but it does a lot of things. I felt like this film is just sort of beamed into cinemas by British director Harry Lighton, who has not made a feature film before.

1:23:13He's made a load of acclaimed shorts, which I haven't seen. But this is a very clearly English film about BDSM starring Harry Melling, who was Dudley Dursley in the Harry Potter films. Melling plays Colin, who is this meek, physically very slight, very boyish young man, who we first see, I think it's the first time we've seen him in the film, singing in his dad's bar shop. Well, the very first thing we see is him driving in the back of his parents' car. Oh, yeah, that's true. And then we go to him singing in the pub. Right, but he's very much living at home with his parents, I think. And so you see him, he's part of his dad's barbershop quartet.

1:23:45You know, he's quite sheltered, but he's got an appetite for something else. And boy, does he get it. In the pub that night when we see him singing, he meets Ray Alexander Skarsgård, this golden god, this Swedish giant, towering, handsome, intimidatingly confident man of very few words, leaves a note for him. And before you know it, Colin is sucking off Ray in an alleyway behind Bromley Primark. on Christmas Day. Oh, yeah. Merry Christmas, one and all. Needless to say, this opens up a whole new world for Colin, who gets into a BDSM relationship with Ray. He's never done anything like this before, and Ray lays down the rules, which basically amount to treating Colin like a dog, getting him to do everything for him, do the shopping, do all the cooking, don't settle my sofa, that's for the dog, you're lower than a dog, you sleep on the floor, do everything I say, and don't expect anything, don't expect affection from me, don't expect anything traditionally from me, but if you're up for it this is how it's going to be um and then he sort of gets drawn into Ray's whole world which is a gay biker BDSM culture and he becomes like I guess he kind of becomes friends with him becomes part of this culture but the rules are the rules and that relationship is what it is and the film is about Colin getting used to that and emotionally and psychologically navigating that and working out does he want this is he happy with it even if he's not happy with it, it sort of excites him.

1:25:09So he's going to go along with it. And he's certainly getting more acceptance and more excitement than he's getting from anyone or anything at home. Skarsgård's character is a sort of fish out of water, but he doesn't really care because he doesn't care what anyone thinks. He doesn't give anything away about himself. We learn nothing about his background, his life, family or anything. And there's a great line where someone asks him, you know, he's obviously got Swedish, American team to his accent. And someone says, oh, you know, where are you from? and he says, Chislehurst. There are a load of amazing lines.

1:25:39It's a really funny film and it doesn't hold back, but it illuminates you if you don't know about the BDSM scene without compromise, but also it humanizes it. It gives it heart. It's fun. It's oddly warm-hearted. It's quite sad because this little boy just doesn't know what he's getting into. I shouldn't say little boy. I mean, he's a young man, but he's so boyish in it. And he is confused by it. He's frustrated. He's sad, but also it makes him happy in an odd way and it gives him acceptance and he is excited by it. And I think the film explores that in a really complex way without judging anyone, without sanitising, without patronising.

1:26:19James, we had some interesting... Yeah, it's interesting because you and I think you and Beth had a very similar reaction to it. I thought it was fantastic. I think Harry Melling in particular, his performance is so pure. There is no guile whatsoever to Colin and you just want to wrap him up in cotton wool. He's so sweet. and Skarsgård, who is great and is channeling big Eric Northman vibes in this. But I love the Foley artistry when you watch the thump of his boots as he walks. He has real presence and he's huge. And look, there's no Oscar category currently for prosthetic cop, but if there were, this would fucking win it because there's some extraordinary work on display here.

1:26:53Also true, yes. Yeah, but I think for me, the pathos was visceral for me because I felt Colin is definitely having his eyes open to this culture and this world. and I'm not saying that he's even rejecting that, but there's a real sadness to it that he, I think, as we begin the film, he's shy, he's disenfranchised, he's craving affection and recognition and reciprocity. And these are the things he does not get from Ray, but it's what he wants from Ray. And I definitely think he finds a niche for himself, but all the way through you feel like he's almost not being forced into it, but he wants more and he's not getting it.

1:27:27So the struggle that he goes through, I found just crushingly sad at times in this film. But I think that's the point. It's supposed to be provocative. It's supposed to be drawing out emotional reactions. I very much had one, but it really, it did make me sad a lot, this film, didn't it? Yeah, I think he's looking for something and find elements of it. I think it is a kind of coming-of-age story. I think he's figuring out exactly what he does and doesn't want. What bits of this relationship does he like and which bits does he not like? What is he willing to put up with and what does he not? And I think, from that point of view, it's quite empowering.

1:27:57I do think that some of the criticisms that were made against Fifty Shades of Grey, which is, that this is somebody who's going from essentially zero to quite hardcore BDSM, that that was inappropriate and not really representative of the community, I think that could probably apply here too. I think there are those criticisms. But I think, generally speaking, Colin is so gung-ho for it that you don't necessarily feel quite that way about it. And I think Skarsgård's performance is actually great. I think the last act for Ray is really, really strong. Yeah, I agree. It's a great first film. Harry Melling sells it so much.

1:28:37He's got these incredibly expressive eyes and you feel like you're inside his head as he tries to work this out. His sense of wonder and fear and confusion and excitement all at the same time. And you are taken on a journey with his interior journey with him. I think it's amazing. But as you said, the point is that Ray is such an unattainable, kind of godly, Adonis, Viking made flesh. The way that the camera objectifies him, I mean, I was all for it, but it was marked. And the way that, you know, Conning just gazes at this person who is clearly demonstrably out of his league, but somehow finds himself being chosen by him.

1:29:16Obviously, but straight away he's into him. Right. In his own way. I mean, I have not seen a relationship in such an accessible film like this before. Yeah, it's amazing. Five stars, literally. We did give it five stars. Five stars? Yep. Five stars then. Five stars for Pillion. Excellent stuff. We don't have a lot of time left, but we do have Christy and Blue Moon to talk about. Housebells, tell me about Blue Moon. Yes, this is the new film from Richard Linklater, or one of them, because he made two back-to-back. Nouvelle Vague will be out soon as well. And both are about creative people being creative.

1:29:53So this one is Ethan Hawke playing Lorenz Hart. Now, Hart was the original lyricist partner of Richard Rogers, who was played here by Andrew Scott, who was one of the great composers in Broadway history. and they worked together for like 20 plus years. And then they went their separate ways and Roger started working with Hammerstein and then they did like Oklahoma and on from that. And this story is set on the night that Oklahoma premieres. And Laurence Hart goes along and he's like, wow, this is going to be a monster hit, but also I hate it. And then goes to the bar where the after party is going to be.

1:30:31And he's basically sitting there waiting for his old partner to turn up with that guy's new partner and a whole bunch of people who are going to be spending the entire night telling him he's brilliant and that this is the best work he's ever done. And he knows that's coming. And he's kind of mentally and physically preparing himself for that. Chatting to the barman who's played by Bobby Cannavale. He's also obsessed with this young woman he's been writing to, Elizabeth Whelan, who's played by Margaret Qualley. He's absolutely on tender hooks waiting for her to turn up as well. He may be gay, but he's also obsessed with her.

1:31:03It's a little bit fluid. It's all very, you know, theater-y. And basically this film is, I would say, about 75 % Lawrence Hart's monologue. This is a guy who cannot shut up to save his life. This is a guy who you kind of wish would shut up at times, and he would probably be happier if he did shut up at times, but literally cannot stop talking. You get the idea that he is really talented, incredibly bright, very good at what he does, has an incredible creative sense, but also that he would be a fucking nightmare to work with and you understand where Richard Rogers is coming from. And I genuinely think that the scenes with Andrew Scott in this film, his second film of the week, are absolutely standout because you see the frustration of dealing with this weirdo for 20 years and also the deep, deep love between them and the deep, deep affection and respect for Hart's talent.

1:32:00And I think it is absolutely heartbreaking. And that's kind of the film. It's a heartbreaking film. Hart was a tiny guy they have literally you know put Ethan Hawke in an oversized suit they have I think at times dug trenches in the floor of the set so he can walk next to people and look tiny they have done all this stuff very old school stuff just to make him you know Hart's size but it is really short man syndrome it is this guy who is very very horribly conscious that he is getting older and he is balding and he wasn't that you know super hot He wasn't Alexander Skarsgård in Pillian to begin with, and yet he's in love with this gorgeous young woman with her platinum blonde hair and everything else.

1:32:43So yeah, it's just very elegaic. It's very melancholy, but it's also very, very funny and sharp and clever and non-stop, you know, great, great dialogue, but really non-stop. I cannot stress enough how talky this film is. All right, sounds good to me. Four stars we've given this, I believe. Four stars then for Blue Moon. That's spot on. Next up is Christie starring Sidney Sweeney, which did not do well when it opened in the States and has been dismissed by people, but unfairly? I think unfairly. I mean, I get it and we'll get into it, but this is directed and co-written by Australian director David Mickalt, who did Animal Kingdom and the Rover War Machine.

1:33:26Interesting director, has done some good stuff. Animal Kingdom was very good. This is very much a biopic about the life of Christie Martin, a female boxer who came to prominence in the 90s and beyond and overcame a lot of obstacles. She was very pioneering. She was really, really great. And this film just lays it all out. She faces a lot of challenges, a lot of obstacles, but she is tenacious in every way. Sidney Sweeney plays her. Did I mention that? Sidney Sweeney plays her. She is absolutely incredible in this film. This is a real journey she goes on over years and years and years. And so basically, at the beginning, she is encouraged to become a professional boxer.

1:34:09She's taken on by this coach played by Ben Foster, who reluctantly takes her on because misogyny. But then he is impressed by her, does take her on. But the misogyny is relevant because they then end up embarking on a relationship involving all sorts of abuse. Mental, emotional, and then I don't think it's too much of a spoiler to say physical. and it becomes a film about that struggle and about that abuse, but also about her determination and her staying power in the ring, outside of the ring. It becomes about power, becomes sexuality, the way she is exploited by the industry. She is such a fighter, like I say, inside and outside the ring.

1:34:51And I get why it has been sort of dismissed by some people because it's quite rote. It's quite generic. It ticks all the biopic boxes. It's not bringing you anything you haven't seen before in that degree. But it's such a good story. Her life story is incredible. And she's not sort of canonized here. She herself makes some horrible choices. Very big warts. And so as a biopic, it's not doing anything new. But it's a meaty story. And I was shocked by some of the things that happened. And there is power to it. There is proper violence and brutality to it. and you i got really swept even though i was watching it was like this is quite generic i was still swept along with it and that i think is because sydney sweeney is extraordinary in this role she is genuinely unrecognizable in a lot of the film and a lot of people say that a lot when people take on paths like this you i would some of the shots in the film you wouldn't know it was her she is so good she doesn't feel or look physically like anything you've seen her doing before i think Sydney Sweeney is a brilliant, brilliant actor.

1:35:54And she sells every second of this. And she elevates the film and she makes it break out of its constraints, I think. And by the end of it, I was really quite emotionally taken with it. I think the film is quite good with its flaws, but I think she is absolutely brilliant in it. Alright, well, our reviewer kind of agrees with you. They gave it three stars. So we've given this three stars. So it's three stars for Christy, but Alex sounds like he is in the four-star camp and but there we go that is reviews section and dealt with folks it's time for a link a later link a later link about link later because our final guests this week are Richard Linklater and Ethan Hawke who've made one or two movies together over the years Blue Moon is just the latest and we send our resident Linklater lover Ben Travis who adores Richard Linklater's movies to have a chat with them when they were in London recently for the LFF.

1:36:52Do please enjoy. Welcome to the Empire podcast. Richard Linklater and Ethan Hawke talking about Blue Moon. How are you guys doing? Really well. Happy to be in London. Doing good. Ethan, I've got a little bit of a bone to pick with you. All right, pick it. Let's go at it. So you were on a great little internet show recently called Subway Takes. Oh, is this my Liverpool comment? Oh, please forgive me. You had a lovely take on that show. You're invited on and you're asked to give a take. And your take was wonderful. It was about how insane, impossible it is to pick your favorite Beatle because, as you say, it's like picking the favorite ventricle of your heart.

1:37:31However, in the course of this take, you did say that Liverpool was a shithole. That's my home city now. I just wondered if you wanted to set the record straight. I was trying to impress upon the morons that live in the cesspool that is New York City that I live in. No, I was trying to impress. A lot of people don't understand that they didn't come from wealth. And I was making a joke point. And please give me an opportunity to say I'm sorry. I believe I said it. The Scousers are upset. You can't make a joke anymore. What's lovely about that is that it takes you right back to that scene in Boyhood.

1:38:10Yeah. With the Black Album, with the compilation of like, here's all the post Beatles stuff. You put it all together. You get all the individual parts of the Beatles. Was that just a conversation that you guys had already had together? There's so much Beatle love there. That was actually a compilation Ethan was putting together in his real life for your kids. I was doing it for, I guess it was like Maya's 13th birthday or 15th birthday, something like that. And I was telling Rick, I'm making this CD for Maya. And Rick was like, we should put that in the movie. Because he's as big a nerd about it as I am.

1:38:44Yeah, I've fluctuated on this over the years, too. My Paul, John, you know. Yeah. But, yeah, that's a good example of how we work together. Yeah. You know, I'll tell Ethan, like, I had this weird dream last night. And he's like, hey, we're going to put that in the movie. Like, really? Yeah, no, that's funny because that's brilliant. And we help each other see what's interesting about it. Yeah. Yeah. And obviously you guys are both huge music fans. That comes across in all of your work. When does Lorenz Hart come up? He's obviously the heart of Blue Moon. I'll take that. I might surprise you when Lorenz Hart came up in our collaboration, which was that during the process of writing before sunset, Rick was playing, it was the Ella Fitzgerald songbook, right?

1:39:29I don't know why. Yeah, that was just kind of wistfully in the background. And that was the first time that I heard Rick kind of start talking about, oh, Rogers and Hardy. Because I didn't know that Rogers and Hart and Rogers and Hammerstein was the same Rogers. Right. And I was like, whoa, wow. And then it was years after that that your friend Robert Kaplow kind of was developing this piece he was writing that has evolved into Blue Moon. Yeah. And myself, I came aboard in the, I think it was, I was listening to the radio in the early mid 80s. And, you know, I'm going to Dead Kennedy shows and I'm listening to Stiff Little Fingers, you know.

1:40:13But I heard it was Ella Fitzgerald's birthday or something. And I said, and, you know, we're sending out, she was still alive. You know, it's Ella Fitzgerald's 75th birthday or something. And I'm like, something hit me with the lyrics and it was a, it was a Rogers and Hart song. And so I got the double album, Ella Fitzgerald's songbooks, Rogers and Hart. And I was just a weirdo listening to that all the time. It really led me in to that. And I loved show tunes, and I love that music. And it got me going on big band music. I explored it in another movie of mine. So it just was down on track. But it was always Rogers and Hart were always the guys.

1:40:51So for me, it's a 40-plus year appreciation and love of that music, that period. and Hart in particular, such a unique character. And I got to play Chet Baker in a movie once. And so I got to, when you do the deep dive on Chet, there's a ton of Rodgers and Hart songs in his work. So all that stuff comes alive. And then you start to see where that fits into the context and how beautifully that music holds up over time. It's everywhere. It's still very pervasive. You're listening to a jazz station or something. I'll be sitting there with my kids and I'll go, just Rodgers and Hart? And they're like, oh, of course, you know, it's just it's everywhere.

1:41:27I'll just be pointing out when someone's playing something. It's interesting because the songs themselves are huge. You look at the list of Rodgers and Hart songs, you know, oh, my God, these are all staples. They're all classics. To me, I hadn't heard the combination of names, Rodgers and Hart. I knew Rodgers and Hammerstein. Oh, you knew the songs, right. But then you look at the songs and that feels like it's a big part of the film in a way, that this is the guy who is, this is the night that he realizes, maybe fears that he is about to be left behind, and he's trying to deal with that. When does that become the sort of focus of the story for you?

1:42:03Well, it's twofold, you know, to me. It was always so moving that it's an artistic breakup movie, you know, but it's also a portrait of an artist being left behind by the times. when you talk about all the Rodgers and Hart songs, you know them for the songs. But you can't say what show that originated from, where you can every Rodgers and Hammerstein, you can go, oh, that's from South Pacific. That's from Sound of Music. That's from Oklahoma. That's from Carousel. Because the shows back then, they don't get put up anymore. They were really just kind of compilation. It was a different Broadway.

1:42:42There was a ton of musicals, different time. and what really survives are the songs. But that era is ending because of Oklahoma. That's the changing of the guard. It's kind of like imagine being a certain age and really becoming the best mandolin player in the United States of America the day before Elvis breaks, when all of a sudden the mandolin is irrelevant as an instrument. It's like, it doesn't matter how good the best mandolin player was after Elvis. Nobody cared. Yeah. No one wants to hear it. Because it's on the night that Oklahoma premieres. And so because we're sort of in Lorenz Hart's viewpoint, we're following him.

1:43:26There is a bit of an element of like, fuck Oklahoma. Are you guys yay Oklahoma or fuck Oklahoma? Oh, I love. I mean, it's so the backdrop of your own life. You know, you've seen so many productions of it. You've heard it. I have a soft spot. I love all the music. I've never disliked something more that I've listened to. I know all the words to all of Oklahoma. But I also love to make fun of it. Well, it can take it. It's been on the top of the mountain for so long in a general sense. But when we say, oh, he's putting it down, it's like, well, they were at the time. It was corny then. It was just so populous.

1:44:07It was such a big hit. so I say he's coming from a place of hurt but you know Rogers and Hammerstein can absorb it and keep going it's not going to knock them off any pedestal you talked about this as a film about an artistic breakup it's an artistic reunion for you guys obviously you've worked together for decades now but this is the first one in quite a while so when does it come up Richard that you're finally going to make this film it's been percolating with you for decades when does it also become an Ethan Hawke project? Oh, early. That's what's confusing about it. We weren't aware that so much time had gone by because I think I read the first draft of Blue Moon before we were done with Boyhood.

1:44:50Right. Yeah. Yeah, so there was... There's a continuity. It wasn't like we were like, hey, we're not working together for 10 years, and then finally Rick calls out. We were kind of working on this, you know. We were talking about this, and yeah, we just didn't even realize it had been 10 years since we rolled camera together because it doesn't feel that way. But it was wonderful that it was this project because it was so different than anything we'd done. Ethan physically had to transform so much. It was such a challenge to kind of pull off. So it was good to get back in the ring, and it wasn't some vacation.

1:45:27It was like, ooh, we're both pushing ourselves to the extent of what we can do. What I loved about it is that it is taking you guys into a different milieu, Ethan. It feels like often your characters with Richard, whether that's Mason Senior, whether that's Jesse, it feels like there's often a lot of you in it. And we spoke for the magazine about how with this, Richard didn't want any of you in this. He didn't want to see you. He wanted to see Lorenz's heart. Yeah, nobody knows me better. And so I'm more recognizable, Tim. It's like pushing it away. It was a reductive process. That's just stripping me of everything that made me comfortable and feel good about myself.

1:46:07At the end of the day, all he is, Larry Hart's very vulnerable. All he is is his wit, his mouth, his words. That's all he's offering the world. But he himself is kind of, there's not much there. He has no pride in that. Yeah, yeah. And that's what makes the heartbreak of losing his art all. He doesn't have another identity. Well, like you say, it's all I have. Don't make, you know. Yeah. Because at the same time then, it makes sense as a Richard Linklater project because it's set over the course of one night, it's very heavily dialogue driven, that fits in some of the mode that you guys have worked in for a long time.

1:46:45How much of this was new? How much of it was a comfortable rhythm for you? It's kind of our third real-time movie. Most of this is in real time, more or less. So we've worked our way out of that corner. we painted ourselves in a few times. So we know how to, the challenges of that. We're dealing with a genius. I mean, Lorenz Hart is a genius. It's a portrait of a genius. So that's tough. And that was new. And the period, I mean, 43 is, you know, we're right in the heart of the war in New York. So there was a lot of things that were new. And then there was terrain we've navigated before. But it's always extremely difficult.

1:47:28and it was just enough new to feel thrilling and like a dare off a high dive and enough of what we knew how to do to go like okay well we might land on our feet yeah we had enough confidence like okay we can do this we just have to work really hard and stay at it but yeah i mean one of the things you had to do was make ethan look a foot shorter than he actually is and that's a big part of the character in his psychology. I'd love to ask about the stagecraft of things because I always love looking at behind the scenes images from Lord of the Rings and all of the forced perspective stuff of making Gandalf look bigger than the hobbits and all of that.

1:48:05Were you using those kinds of like bits of trickery of, did you have floors shorter or costumes bigger? Ethan did the hard work. He lost the height. Yeah, I lost the height. People always get when they lose weight or gain weight. They get so much credit for that. Nobody, not really did I lose the height, I gained it back. I know. I lost the hair. Along with the hair. I gained it back. No one talks about it. No. Lord of the Rings is an interesting example of what we studied, too, because a lot of it they did with computers. And when you have a movie that has a ton of visual effects, there's certain doors that are available to you.

1:48:40When you have dragons and things like that, it's a little easier to make people look different, too. but they also did some old stagecraft tricks that were, I thought, really effective and we kind of thought, well, you know we had no CGI how would Charlie Chaplin do this? how would the great filmmakers in the past do this? and the history of movies is such that there's a lot of work going to make men look bigger and stronger than they are so how to make somebody look smaller and more diminutive than they are is possible in the same way. I think it's got to be tougher. Yeah, it was a lot tougher.

1:49:19Yeah, it was a strange, kind of difficult technical challenge. Every film seems to have a few things making it difficult, and that was definitely one of ours. But, you know, the goal is to not be a thing. He's just short. He's five feet tall. And leave it at that, it's not what the film's about. It's just a... It's an aspect of his character. It's a big aspect of his character. And people were like, no one knows even who Larry Hart is. Who cares how tall he is? Why are we even doing this? And it's like, oh, no, no, no. It's a huge part of his character. Thank you so much, guys. Okay, that was Ethan Hawke, the grabber himself, and Richard Linklater and Blue Moon is out in cinemas right now.

1:50:00And on that note, that is it for this week's Empire Podcast. Hurrah! Join us next week for more film-related fun when we'll be joined by Taron Egerton making a triumphant return to the podcast to talk about his new movie She Rides Shotgun which is out on Prime Video any day now in fact we'll be discussing it on next week's show and it happened it finally happened Helen I wish you well but I wish me well most of all because next week we'll be joined by George Clooney star of the new Noah Baumbach movie Jay Kelly and his pal and now mine the Sandman himself Adam Sandler and it is an absolutely joyous interview I have to say as well if I do say so myself I had nothing to do with it they were on amazing amazing form so look out for those on next week's show but until then until we meet again until that auspicious occasion it is goodbye from my three colleagues of such lethal cunning Goodbye, Alex Godfrey.

1:51:09Bye, Chris. Looking forward to seeing you in a minute when we get on our motorbike together. You be Wallace, I be Gromit. Okay. Goodbye, James Dyer. Goodbye, Chris. Goodbye, Helen O 'Hara. Toodaloo. Toodaloo. And it's goodbye for me. I am off to go on eBay and type in the words Kirk Spock Bauble. Just see what happens. Just see what happens. Thanks for listening. See you next time. Bye-bye.

1:51:38I'll see you next time.