There's Magic In The Air (ft. guests Shih-Ching Tsou & Sean Baker; Daryl McCormack & Cailee Spaeny; James L. Brooks)

32:32You know, the first day we shot, we had 20 people crew, and everybody wore a black shirt. And, you know, after they set out the noodle stand, they wait across the street. Suddenly, everybody knew we were shooting film. So, you know, nobody wants to leave. They all want to see who the stars are and what you're doing. And so the second day we, you know, asked everybody to just, you had to hide yourself and pretend you're just one of the night market goers So everybody wear normal clothes and we have around five to six crew people on set every day And, you know, in that case, people would not notice what I shouldn't film And also we use iPhone to kind of, you know, hide a camera and also, you know, make the actors less intimidated by a huge camera.

33:24So I think that's the way we eventually we can capture the real night market vibe. You know, people walk around and you see the Mopac passing by. Everything is just almost like a documentary in the night market. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And Sean, you obviously, you made Tangerine with iPhones, which was such a big story at the time because it kind of broke new ground. I mean, we're now a few years on and there's been a few films made on iPhones. And tell me how much it's changed because it feels like the technology just in those few years have kind of advanced so much. Well, with every model of the phone, there's a technological leap forward.

34:04And in this case, I mean, it's yes, it's been 10 years since tangerine. So to see what Qiqing did with the iPhone, which is, I think, the iPhone 14 you shot on? No, iPhone 13 Pro Max. Okay. Yeah. And that was the first phone that I believe you could shoot log, meaning raw, and then be able to manipulate your footage in post-production. And you could shoot 4K. And there's a lot more control you can have now over the camera. I mean, it's really truly a cinematic tool um we love it we've used it several times not just on tangerine but we've done some fashion films and and now of course left-handed um we're really it's it's such a wonderful filmmakers tool and um and and it allows you to do things that you couldn't do with bigger cameras bigger film cameras i mean you can shoot clandestinely you can shoot in small spaces it really helps with first-time actors to remove the intimidation factor of a big cinema camera so um and i really love the way this film looks uh xi ching xi ching cinematographer ko chen chen did such an incredible job every all all the the beautiful colors and lights of of the night markets and the binlan stand and all the other wonderful locations of taipei they shine and pop how do you go about getting that because when you watch this movie the lights and neon all of taiwan it's so beautiful but you never feel like just a tourist kind of gawping at it do you know what i mean it feels far more immersive than that so how do you strike that balance well you know i think it's from the very beginning i wanted to show this film uh through a little girl's eyes so from the very first friend you see the collabsco image you know for so for that i wanted to kind of kind of pop out all the colors because you are looking through this little girl's eyes.

36:02And so, you know, when she go into the night market, almost like a nighttime playground for her. So we definitely want to kind of utilize that night market look to make the whole film looks like, you know, it's like a, it's an eye candy in a way. Yeah. And she had an amazing idea of using this kaleidoscope image in the beginning of the movie. Little, little Jing is looking through a kaleidoscope. That's how the film opens. And it's really setting up how we're going to see the rest of the world for the rest of the movie. A kaleidoscope of color and light. I also see this whole movie as Xi Qing's love letter to Taipei.

36:45It's a very, you know, and that's something that Xi Qing and I discussed very early on when I fell in love with Taiwan. I was like, we got to the film has to have the film's goal is to have the audience fall in love with Taiwan as well and be intrigued and maybe even want to visit and experience night markets, etc. So, yeah. Do you see this film at all as a companion piece to Take Out? Because that was like about an illegal Chinese immigrant who's struggling, you know, falling into debt. So there's some overlap with this movie. And then also Florida Project, just the fact you've got a young mother with a very young daughter scrabbling to make a living kind of on the margins of society.

37:28Did you see that kind of overlap at all? Well, definitely, you know, takeout has such an important, it plays such an important role in our careers. And, you know, so there's like a huge influence. We definitely want to, you know, kind of bring that back to Lafayette Girl, you know, the same kind of like, you know, everything's in a movement in a movie. You see, you know, the sisters riding on a moped going through the city. So we definitely want to kind of bring that energy into the film. How did you find the young actress who plays Jing? Because, I mean, she's five or six years old in this movie and she's absolutely terrific.

38:12And we see a lot of the film through her eyes. It's shot at her kind of point of view, you know, near the ground. Reminds me a bit of E.T. in that way with the young children in that. So how did you find her? Because Sean, we're used to hearing stories of you of finding people on Instagram and casting in unusual ways. Was it a bit like that? Well, finding the little actress Nina Yeh, I actually did a couple rounds of social media casting, but I didn't find the little girl through that way. So eventually she got recommended by an agent of actor in Taiwan. And at the time, she was a little commercial star If you turn on TV at the time, you see her in every other commercial on TV So she was very, very experienced and very professional So when I met her, and she has that very innocent look I think that's also like she looks very She has that very curious, like very, very, like a childlike kind of natural you know um very special so when i saw her and i i watched her audition tape she you know her performance was so natural so immediately i knew like she is she is the role in ii jing i i just think that xi ching did such an amazing job casting this film um yeah and it also and i was so happy with every selection because and it also showed that we were very much on the same page about how we saw these characters.

39:48And I was blown away by the fact that Chi-Yun Ma is a first-time actor. I'm blown away because as an editor, I was seeing all this footage. I would never be able to detect that from looking at the dailies. She was incredibly professional, delivering a very layered performance with every take. and for her to be on this level right out of the gate is incredible. As an editor, sometimes with first-time actors, I have to manipulate a performance through the edit. Sure, sure. Not in this case. She was shining in every take. Brilliant. And our time's nearly up, so I just want to finish by asking, Sean, in terms of your career and your standing, how much has things changed since the Nora?

40:41Because obviously it won the Palme d 'Or, it won five Oscars, four of them you won personally that you won best film director editor original screenplay has things really changed for you and is that partly why this film can come out now because you've now got a platform you know you've said you you wanted to make this film for years i think the screenplay was written in 2010 or it was done then does it help having an aura behind you uh yes uh i think so i think anora helps elevate any future project and i'm so happy uh that left-handed is the first one that i think anora can really help uh elevate um and uh but to tell you the truth i haven't had a moment to breathe you know if you think about it right after the oscars uh left-handed girl premiered at can in may and so and we've been in left-handed girl world ever since so one of these days we'll breathe yeah yeah well i want to congratulate you both on the movie because it's absolutely wonderful and xi ching and sean thank you so much for joining us today on the empire podcast thanks for having us okay that was xi ching su and sean baker and left-handed girl is available to watch on netflix right now folks right now and speaking into Netflix.

42:01I think this leads us very neatly into our news section because by my last count, every film ever made is going to be on Netflix pretty much soon, right? Because a lot of interesting shit has gone down in the last week or so or is still going down or is in the process of going down. Quite frankly, there are going to be many more twists and turns along the road. But basically, Warner Brothers is on the verge of being bought by Netflix. This has been a long-running saga in Hollywood, and it seemed like the favorite was going to be Paramount, who, of course, had been taken over recently by David Ellison, who's a very, very rich dude, and he's the head of Skydance, and that they were going to be the ones to get their hands on Warner Brothers.

42:52Now, they were... This is business shit, and I'm not very good at business shit, but they were going to buy... They had made an offer to buy all of Warner Brothers Discovery, which includes everything including CNN, all that jazz. That's a different movie. But Netflix have offered the aforementioned Big Sack of Cash for their entertainment arm, etc. So they're essentially leaving Discovery alone. And this has been the bid that has won out as things stand. Because now there is apparently a hostile takeover of Warner Brothers going on from Paramount and Skydance, which might through various spanners in the works.

43:32So, unpack that, motherfuckers, he said, turning his microphone down and just taking the rest of the podcast. I've struggled with who I would like to win this particular battle, and I cannot think of a correct answer. No, especially when people keep changing their opinions on things, like Netflix are now changing their tunes slightly with a theatrical window before they... Yeah, but they're saying. This is my worry, because Ted Sarandos has gone on the record previously saying he thinks cinemas are an outdated concept. Now, you could argue that the reasons he said that was because he had an exclusively streaming-related business, and maybe if they own Warner Brothers, they will branch out to a first-run thing.

44:13Well, actually, you know what, this theatrical thing, that's a bit of a giggle, isn't it? I think either way, he said they'll reduce the exclusivity windows to theatrical releases, so they'll be coming to Netflix a lot quicker. You can imagine it has made a lot of filmmakers who have deals with Warner Brothers a little bit squirrelly right now. And rightly so, I think. it's a concern I think so never mind exhibitors cinemas themselves or us I don't think about us I feel like so Paramount's without getting political anyway Paramount's current owners troubled me in terms of their what they would want to do with this and the kind of content they would then greenlight as producers that concerns me from a Netflix point of view I worry you know about the existential state of cinema and the theatrical experience so it does feel like we are fucked in two different ways but equally they are both bad counterpoint yes because I think it's important to have counterpoints please try and devil's advocate by all means yes on the surface of this this is apocalyptically bad but if we dig a little deeper yes okay if we dig a little deeper does it get worse Netflix yes for all the shit that people throw at them about the streaming thing I totally get that and the not embracing theatrical thing and I totally get that are one of the few studios in town who would say, when Guillermo del Toro walks to the door and goes, I'd like$150 million, I'm guessing, to make Frankenstein.

45:40They go, sure. Here you go, Guillermo del Toro. Or Alfonso Cuaron walks in and goes, I'd like to make a black and white movie called Roma. And they go, yes, absolutely. So they back auteurs to a degree. To a degree. But here's the problem with that. First of all, they're backing very established auteurs to that degree. They're not necessarily investing in younger, upcoming filmmakers. Chi-Ching Su's Left Handed Girls on Netflix right now. Was that produced by them or was it bought by them? Because there is a difference. Yes, there is. And it does matter. And I think a lot of this, look, I worry that they are treating, and this is not just Netflix, I think this is Hollywood right now, that they are treating auteurs as a trinket, as a decoration to cover up.

46:26Oh, they absolutely are. Yes, but that's not good long-term. We do need people in the studios who actually care about film on some level. And I am not convinced that this deal, any of these deals are conducive to that. And my worry is that we are getting to a point where these people in charge, we are getting to a position where they genuinely don't care about the experience at all. And you have to care about it a little bit. And I'm worried that that's what's getting lost here. And look, competition is good. There should be more competition, not less competition. Monopolization is bad. There should be less of it.

47:07It's a troubling time. I think people will lose their jobs regardless of who buys it. But, you know, there is a certainly, there's been a shift in creative, shall we say, focus for Paramount under the auspices of Skydance. And Netflix, look, Netflix, it feels like Netflix has in many ways been the anti-HBO. HBO has always been it's not TV it's HBO HBO have historically commissioned things they don't give a fuck if people watch it or not if it has great reviews if it wins rewards if it's prestigious they are on board with it they will give you The Wire they will give you The Sopranos and they're not that bothered that it takes like four seasons for anyone who even discovered that The Wire exists whereas Netflix are very algorithmically driven and if they don't get a certain amount of views for season one the amount of things that don't make it to a second season on Netflix is terrifying and it's a very different when they do commission content when they create content like they have a very different well quite yeah they have a very different approach to it and I think HBO has been an outlier in that regard weirdly I think Apple as a streaming service is the closest to HBO in terms of their ethos and so you can imagine a lot of people who deliberately go to HBO because of their approach to quality entertainment probably avoid working for Netflix for that reason and I'm not saying that there's no good stuff on Netflix that is not the case at all Netflix makes some great stuff but I think that certainly their business strategy is not particularly aligned with, for example, HBO.

48:26That's not to say that these couldn't exist as separate streams within that central business, and they might, but they might not. But the algorithm is inherently limited. The algorithm is inherently self-defeating because all it can tell you people like is what's been done before. It can never tell you that something original is going to work or not. And I feel like we're beginning to see this in some of the TV that comes through. even the well-acted, well-written prestige TV that comes through, sometimes on some of these services is feeling stale. And, you know, I just worry that we're losing something fundamentally human about all this quirkiness, eccentricity, personality, human input, human creativity.

49:13I genuinely just, I'm not feeling good about this. I'm trying to be very everyday as Christmas Eve about it. But also, just on a fundamental level, monopolies are bad, competition is good, more competition would help us as a society, and this kind of deal is bad for that, no matter who wins. Beth, what's your take on this? It's not straying too far from what these guys have said. I think as well, if you think about the stuff that Warner Brothers has pulled off in the last few years, we wouldn't have had Barbie under a deal like this. That's the worst thing, guys, we wouldn't have ever I mean, we might have had it, but it wouldn't have made the impact that it did.

49:52I'm talking, sorry, when I say we wouldn't have had Barbie, we wouldn't have had the whole cultural moment about it. Like generations of girls and women and friends flocking together to queue up at the cinema to pose in those Barbie boxes and making it a real cultural moment. Barb and Heimer wouldn't have happened. No. Yeah. No. So I implore you actually if you get a chance for a bit of additional reading. Jane Fonda has written a brilliant op-ed for The Ankler. she's just relaunched the committee for the First Amendment which her dad obviously helped to launch back in the day of the Red Scare and it's a really I mean it's a damning but crucial read so if you get a chance to read that I think that sums that up brilliantly and very passionately but yeah it's a dark time I mean so they're going to get if this goes through and Netflix get it they obviously get Warner Brothers Studios so they can make more movies and they will own and just like that they will own they will own the entire Warner Brothers back catalog the one thing that would improve Casablanca is the beginning of it in my opinion finally put it over the top to good film where it's just been hovering at okay but would really push Casablanca over the top here's looking at you kids this could be the beginning of a beautiful friendship I don't know I mean this yeah I'm trying this could be the beginning of a beautiful friendship next up Squid Game I'm trying not to be hellscape about the whole thing I'm trying not to be I'm trying to look for the positives from this and how's that going?

51:20going great it's going I mean Paramount have said as part of their deal they would aim to put out at least 30 films a year which I don't know what that would look like to put out I don't know what those films would look like but the confidence in that output is quite good I guess compared to what Netflix is doing but is that putting out or is that actively advertising and supporting and promoting I mean because I think that's a problem that we as an industry have right now where films are being dumped. And again, don't think it's great for cinema. I'm sorry if I'm being super controversial here, guys.

51:56But yeah, I'm really trying. Every day is Christmas Eve, Chris. Yeah, every day is Christmas Eve. This is fun. This is fun. This is an exciting new frontier for cinema, Hells Bells. We're on the threshold. What if it's the final frontier? No, Helen. Star Trek is, of course, owned by Paramount Skydance. I know. Being glass half empty. Both of you, in fact, the glass has smashed. The glass is in pieces all over the floor. We're lapping the drink up off the floor. Oh, no. I am barefoot here and the glass is everywhere. Back to die hard. Shoot the glass. Shoot the glass. There's a new Men in Black film in the works.

52:30Oh. Really? We all missed that, I think. Yeah. Hey, does this mean that they've finally gone into profit? Men in the black, you mean? Let me email Ed Solomon and find out about that. So yes, this is the news that there's going to be a, I was going to say fourth Men in Black film, but of course there already has been a fourth Men in Black film. Who can remember or indeed forget Men in Black International, which came out a few years ago. This is a new Men in Black film with the writer of Bad Boys for Life, Chris Bremner on hand. Plot details are unknown, but once Bremner has finished the script, Will Smith will be one of the first to receive it in hopes that he will reprise the role of Agent J.

53:18Okay. How do we feel about this? I think that sums it up. I mean, it's not even news news yet, is it? I mean, Will Smith's not really confirmed. So someone's got a script with the hope of Will Smith doing. I mean, I could do that. I'm going to write a script with the hope of Glenn Powell maybe starring in like a, I don't know. Brisket, the love story. I've got this script here for£7, too. £8. That's£14, Helen. What? £7, two ounces. Ah,£7, two ounces. Anyway, but I'm hoping that Will Smith will read that. Is that news as well? Is that the really terrible one he made? Yes. Well, it's the weight of a human brain.

54:04Wasn't it£7 is like the weight of the soul, wasn't it? That was the idea of that nonsense, wasn't it? That's 20 grams or something, isn't it? Maybe yours. Mine weighs stone.

54:15James' is blackened and charred. That Grams film was the weight of a soul. No, 21 grams. 21 grams, yeah. Seven pounds is, I think, the weight of a human heart. Was it his heart or his brain? I feel so stupid every time I come on this podcast. It was his heart. James McGuire, the human head weighs eight pounds. Yeah, exactly. That's why I told him. Lipnicki, yeah, he was going to cut someone's head off. he's a John Doe in the making he is Lipnicki Lipnicki yes but like not the actor obviously I don't imagine he'd cut your head off I mean the character whose name I can absolutely remember oh my god what is the name of the little kid in Jerry Maguire well the main guy is called Jerry Maguire I had that part Cooper Gooding Jr.

54:57is Rod Tidwell oh that's good well done Dorothy Boyd Dorothy Boyd something Boyd no don't look it up no no no no we're gonna guess it now I can assess your guesses Timmy Tommy No Davey Bobby It begins with the letter R Robbie Ralph No Richie No Rocco Rodney No Rococo Is that a name for a person? Rocco and his brothers No Rocky Reginald Ralph No Rocky 1 Rocky 2 Rocky 3 Rocky 4 Rocky Balboa So close but not to any of those God Still the First is Kong Does that begin with R? Yeah R

55:40I feel like this is a weird name for a little boy. This is a name I associate with full-grown, big, tough man. He becomes a full-grown, tough man. Have you seen Lip Becky now? He'd rip your head off. But he wouldn't. No, he wouldn't. We've established that. But the character would. Rex. I should know this. I mean, write number of letters. Oh, Rick. Roy. Roy. Ron. Ron. Rob. Rick. Oh, you're getting further away. real it really she dances on the sun his name is real Andy oh my god see listeners this is what happens when there is no movie news other than Hollywood's ending and there's a Men in Black film okay so you said Roy and you were really close and then you went further from it Rob Rob Roy Ray Ray Ray Ray Ray Ray Ray of course it's Ray Ray Boyd who can forget Ray Boyd Rayboid sounds like a monster from a 1980s horror movie sounds like he's Raybid yeah it might be that too Kutcher was Rayboid he was is there any other news?

56:45um Golden Globes nominations I'll be there I really was just just waiting for you all to go through all those names but you're like there's not much news in there there's nothing there's fucking loads of news to get through and we're like coming up with like 50 different names beginning with our I mean This shows how much we care. Official Golden Globe nominations. Should we pay brief lip service? Brief lip service. Because it's an interesting line-up. Well, I guess it can be seen as an indicator on how other awards maybe will go. No, they like to think that it is. But it's voted for by an entirely different group of people who are trying their very best to guess what way other award shows will go.

57:30It always seemed to me. At least back in the day. Maybe the new votership will be different. Well, that's me told. I mean, there's some fun stuff, though. There's always an element of fun to the Golden Globes where people get nominated where perhaps they wouldn't get an Oscar nomination. I was really happy to see Eva Victor got nominated for Sorry, Fancy, which is a fucking wonderful performance. Then, let's be honest, probably won't make it to the Oscars. I'd be very excited if it does. You'd be amazed, sadly. We do have... I mean, look, there are actually great films in both categories for drama and for musical or comedy, which, again...

58:04Run through them. Doubling their chances of getting the Oscar nominees in there somewhere. So for drama, we've got Frankenstein, Hamnet, It Was Just an Accident, The Secret Agent, Sentimental Value, and Sinners. That is a pretty great list of films. In musical or comedy, you have Blue Moon, Bugonia, Marty Supreme, No Other Choice. Really good to see that in there. Nouvelle Vague. And Happy Gilmore 2. And One Battle After Another. Sorry, what? perhaps the most I don't know is that surprising that that's under comedy rather than drama but it's a goal always with this the same thing every year yeah as someone pointed out the musical of the year Wicked for Good did not get nominated for best musical lol no I think people were disappointed relative to the first one I believe they were I'm not sure that's you know entirely fair is it not fair well it's what the musical is I know but that's not that's not really an out is it it's just not as good they could have they could have gusted up a little bit if you want to hear how we reacted to Wicked For Good the spoiler special flight with John M.

59:10Chu is up right now on your spoiler special feed if you wish to subscribe but really really good to see like it was just an accident secret agent sentimental value no other choice in there it's not all you know the Hollywood show it's very much films from all over the world there and yes the Blue Moon Nouvelle Vague Double Bill is superb I love them we shall see what happens I believe the Golden Globes are happening on January 11th, which is just two days after our next live show, folks. January 9th. We won't be in Los Angeles, but we'll be in London at King's Place, in fact. And you can join us because there are still a few seats left in the stalls and in the balcony to come and see us.

59:52It's going to be an incredible celebration of everything we've achieved in this podcast. So yes, the show will be five minutes long. And it's going to be awesome. kingsplace.co.uk Helen's going to be there James is going to be there I'm going to be there Bethany are you going to be there? I hope so Yep You've not asked me but I'll show up No I realise this I realise like I've just assumed that everyone's just going to turn up but no I need to extend formal invitations to people Please Beth this is your formal invitation to come along

1:00:49Will you come along? together by spit and polish. It really is. It's scheduled on a wing and a prayer. More spit, less polish. James is irked by my lack of organization. Not James exclusively. Yeah, that's just it. But it's like, if it's worth remembering, I'll remember it. Yes, that's how it works. So, for example, what Jonathan Lipnicki has called the German wire is not worth remembering. Right. So, therefore, I forgot it. Uh-huh. But now I'll never forget it. So, you're lucky because when we do the Pilot TV podcast, the tyrannical way in which I impose that calendar on Boyd and Kay is not to be underestimated.

1:01:27I upbraid them regularly on the show for not filling in the calendar. True story. Compelling content, isn't it? It really is. You should subscribe now. Anyway, go and buy tickets to come see us live. There are still some tickets left and it's going to be great. It's going to be a lot of fun. If you've been before, you'll know. It's a hilarious evening. There's going to be some great guests and we're going to talk about movies. Hopefully Netflix. and the Warner Brothers situation will have resolved this out by then so we can talk about something else please anything else that would be really really lovely that's going to be our first show by the way of the year 2026 I should explain very very quickly I'll do this again next week but we are taking a bit of an extended break for the first time in a long while next week December 19th is going to be the last regular podcast of the year then we're going to be off for about two weeks two weeks but to make sure that there's no Empire Podcast free for text in between those dates there will be a couple of podcasts coming your way we're going to have our epic review of the year which is being recorded on Friday that's usually about three hours long that'll be up around December 27th December 28th something like that and then we're going to bring you a preview for the first time ever we've done a preview of 2026 which we've recorded already was a lot of fun and that will be out on January

1:02:522nd? January 2nd? So when we said we were taking an extended break, what we actually meant was you will not miss anything. What I mean is, there will be a podcast every week. There is no regular podcast until Jan 11th. From December 19th to Jan 11th. That's a big break, but we will have podcasts to make sure. We've got you. We've got you. You've got me. Who's got you? Should we have another guest? Yes. Alright, so I interviewed some of the cast of Wake Up Dead Man, which is, of course, Rian Johnson's third Benoit Blanc movie. It's on Netflix right now. As of today, in fact, December 12th. That's exciting.

1:03:27That's exciting for everybody. And Glenn Close, for example, will be on next week's show. She plays Martha, who is the... What would you call her? Caretaker? Caretaker of the church, which the murder mystery revolves around in this movie. And two of the suspects on the list in this film are Cy, played by Daryl McCormack, who is a kind of up-and-coming young MAGA type, I think you think it's fair to say. MAGA. MAGA. A MAGA type. MAGA. And Kaylee Spaney plays Simone, who is a cellist who is battling with her faith and health in this movie. So do they have the motives to do the big murder? ooh, you'll have to find out by watching the film.

1:04:18But right now, what you're going to hear is a fun interview I did with them a couple of months ago when they came into London for the film's premiere at the LFF. I spoke to them afterwards, and this is one of the most fun interviews I've done this year. It's a joy, an absolute joy these two. They were tremendous. So, I will say a little else about it. Here is Daryl McCormack and Kayleigh Spaney. Enjoy the weirdness. Daryl, Kayleigh, welcome to the Empire Podcast. You can swear if you want to swear, by the way. we can wow amazing yeah I will find you okay there is a swear jar but we can do that if you want to do that okay wow Wake Up Dead Man is fantastic but it is also a very very difficult film to talk about for obvious reasons should we just sit in silence for a second yeah moment of silence yeah moment of silence and contemplate what you guys have done yeah

1:05:11right I think that's enough reflection for the time yeah that felt really good Very churchy. Very churchy. Did the movie make you feel spiritual in a strange way as you were filming it? Yeah, I mean, for my character particularly, he's an interesting guy because I don't know if he's using, I don't know how in touch he is with spirituality. If anything, he's one of the more poor examples of someone who kind of finds a faith, but he's really using it for his own means. So I think playing Psy, I didn't really go there. If anything, I had to try and go the very opposite, which is someone who is finding this whole kind of system but really just motivated by his own greed, motivated by his own ambitions.

1:05:57So you were utterly unmoved by it. Yeah, and I got to play kind of a bit of a nasty, you know, selfish young man. You're having a lot of fun. Yeah, so maybe out of touch with his spirituality and his faith. Yeah, that's fair enough. Kayleigh, well, because Simone is someone who is very much driven by faith in this movie. Did that in a way affect you at all? Yeah, I think it affected all of us in the cast. Because I grew up very religious, had a sort of similar experience as Brian. But I think everyone has some sort of opinion or some sort of experience with religion or faith. And so I think we all had a lot of opinions to bring to the table.

1:06:38and it's all very relevant. And I don't know. I just love the way that Ryan approached it. I think it felt like he was having an internal conversation about his upbringing and his opinions and also his, you know, the sort of logic and faith and the sort of battle within himself, which I just think, okay, we're making an entertaining Knives Out film, but also you're going to drop that into the middle of it. and also pull it off nice well done only Rian Johnson could do something like that so were you all sitting around in between takes you know in lovely comfy chairs of course you know discussing faith and religion and guilt actually we didn't even do a lot of talk about faith which is the irony like you know half the cast dressed up as a priest but no one really talking about faith no I think a lot of our experience and time on set was really just getting to spend time like it's really simple but like we just spend time together and got to know one another and like a lot of silly jokes and naps on pews there's like a good selection of photos in the whatsapp group with a bunch of people like i wish we could show those photos because they're i know explain so much i think it would take away the glamour of what people expect yeah exactly it's hard to have a nap on a pew yeah it's really hard and you managed you really managed.

1:08:08Were you vertical? Were you sitting upright during the nap? Yeah, laid across the pool. With my face flat. I made it work. Just an absolute, you know, just slam down. Yeah. That's the best way to have a nap on a pew. So you're spending all this time together as a group. At what point does Daniel come into it as Benoit? Is he in there from the beginning or does Ryan hold him back as he does in the movie? And what's the impact that it has on you guys? as a group well yeah i mean i think my first day was i was thrust into a scene with daniel and josh o 'connor that was my first day because glenn was meant to was was meant to shoot on a day and something i think she had covid for a split second yeah yeah and so they had to like yeah and so they kind of rescheduled the the shoot so i had to go straight into but um yeah Daniel the amazing thing about Daniel is that he's like one of the most down-to-earth humble kind of leaders in a way that is just so like um all of your armor like drops off and um I think my favorite thing about him is just like his own acknowledgement that he gets nervous doing these films and welcoming in the new cast and when you hear like your lead actor on set like having just the vulnerability to share that you're like oh my goodness like ultimately you have my trust and And then to witness him actually become Benoit Blanc on set is just kind of something amazing.

1:09:36So is he just a Daniel and then action roles? Yes. He is. That's what makes it so sort of jarring. Yeah, yeah. Is that he goes into this very, you know, it's such a broad character in so many ways. With so much heart in it too. Though when he would start, I don't know if that, he has this massive monologue that he has. And it was really like, it was like we were watching his stage play. That's exactly what I thought. It was stunning work. Yeah. Yeah, but then he's just Daniel. And then he goes back to Daniel. Yeah. And he's just a jokester. He's great fun. Did he have a nap in the pew? He did.

1:10:11I don't know if he did. He's not a napper. He's too cool for a... You can dump him in if he is. He wouldn't catch a napper. He's always alert. Yeah, he wouldn't be... Yeah, he wouldn't let his guard down that much. He's too vigilant. Yeah, exactly. He's too vigilant to have a nap in the pew. Yeah. He's got FOMO. Major, major. Yeah, maybe. Major league FOMO. Katie what was your first day with Daniel did you have a build up to Benoit I had no build up I was baptized by fire my first day was again schedule change so I was told I was going to sort of ease into a bit have some days no dialogue sort of be around the cast and then day one we're all in the same room together in this tiny room it's Kerry Washington, it's Daniel Craig it's Jeremy Renner, it's Glenn Close, it's Andrew Scott, and you're just like, sorry, I don't actually know how to get the words out of my mouth right now.

1:11:07But everyone was so gracious. I mean, everyone was very patient with me. I needed a little bit more takes than everyone else, but no one was too hard on me. She was amazing. Oh, my God. It was good. It was like a total master class, and everyone was so kind. And it really helped that no one ran back to their trailers after we shot a scene. We just went straight back to our tent and started right back telling our stories and giggling and that really helped a lot. I spoke to Glenn yesterday and she admitted that she was nervous as well going into the first few days. And if you're Glenn Close and you get nervous, then it's a pretty big deal.

1:11:46Everyone wore their heart on their sleeve. No one was playing it cool. No, that was the most enjoyable thing about it, I think. Because these casts are so iconic. I think for us going into them as well, like on the earlier stage of our careers, it's such a ripe environment to feel intimidated. And I couldn't have felt no, like the further, like so much the opposite. Just welcomed. You're so good in this movie. Sorry. I've been waiting to tell you all the characters. You're so good in this movie. She doesn't say that off camera. She just doesn't even talk to me. And now, Daryl, you have to say Kate.

1:12:26Oh, yeah, Kayleigh. Kayleigh, you're incredible. I've been a fan of Kayleigh for a long time. Honestly, for a while. Remember your film? I always put you the name of. Oh, my God. We're not doing that. Okay, okay. Fair, fair, fair. Okay. I'm a big fan of Kayleigh. She's amazing. Excellent stuff. Obviously, we can't talk about where this film goes and where your characters end up. But we can talk about, hopefully, skills. So Kaylee, is that fake cello playing, or did you actually learn to play the cello? Well, it's not the sound of what's coming out of that cello, because that would be horrifying.

1:13:11But I think, and I haven't tested this out yet, but I think if a cellist goes to see this film, I am hitting all the notes. I can play this song. Not necessarily in the right order. No, I am. I'm doing it in the right order, in the right spots. I've got the hand and the bowing movement down. So I feel quite proud of myself. I kept the cello. It's a beautiful instrument. I had an amazing cellist instructor who I got to just— I went and followed him on a day of work around London. He knew you were following him, right? Creeping behind him with my cello. Ticking around a corner. Yeah, yeah. Newspaper with the holes cut out.

1:13:52Yeah, exactly. Oh, my God. No, it was so much fun. All right. Good, good, good. Daryl, what about yourself? What's your skill? You guys obviously don't have to update your CVs and keep your special skills section updated. But say, for example, you did. What would you have added to it after Wake Up Dead Man? Skill got to be kind of almost like a third camera operator at times, which was fun. Yeah. Would you ever think about it? Were you thinking? like yeah no i honestly at times i was like because si never you know drops this camera rig and and at times ryan was like we're going to use some of the footage that you might capture so there were moments where i was just like i was like oh let me just like let me do it can i get another take i just want to i missed a on my sweet bit it's like darryl you're forgetting your line i was like yeah i know but just i want to so that was that was actually fun to have something to do with your hand yeah yeah and so I need to hide behind at the best of times like don't look at me this is not working yeah nothing to see here but that was that was actually kind of fun is anything from your filming actually in the film oh yeah I think there's like some little clips like because since I put up some YouTube clips so there's like a selfie video for a second with Josh Brolin so there's like that and I think that might be there's a few little clips but that might be it.

1:15:14Did you get some extra cheddar cheese for that? Oh no. Look I'm still trying. So my lawyer is on it. This is on camera. I'm about to talk to Ryan. I can sort you out. Yeah thank you mate. Look anything. A couple hundred quid your way. Yeah good. Gotta get it sorted. Totally fine. Katie that was really interesting what you said though you don't know what to do with your hands all the time. You know the scene in Talladega Nights where he's getting interviewed and his hands keep going and his frame. Do you ever feel that when you're in a scene and you're like Yeah Yeah or you're just like leaning on something really awkwardly I did get to smoke cigarettes in this which was really useful because you just that scene just automatically gets better if you have a cigarette Yeah exactly back and forth Yeah Then you just keep adding cigarettes just to keep both hands Yeah Just shame 10 cigarettes Yeah because that's like even in interviews I don't know if you guys have been noticing I don't know what to do with my hands I fold my arms an awful lot but then that's closed body language Exactly, exactly.

1:16:15I was doing that yesterday, and I was like, I might look stern now. I'm not a stern person, so. Yeah, I'm like, come on, guys. Tell me more about Wake Up Dead Man. But I don't know what to do with my hands, genuinely. Do I put them on my knees? Is this something that you're taught? I'm so glad we all go through this. Yeah, we all do. Hands are stupid. They are. They're in the way at times. I'm very grateful at some moments.

1:16:40Well, I'm glad we have them, which is good. but I'm going to wrap up in a couple seconds but I want to ask about just the experience of reading the screenplay for the first time so how much did you know going into it, the conversations you had with Ryan before he sent you the PDF or the actual script? I met Ryan yeah, like it was a few months before the film in London and he just gave me an outline of what the third one's going to be about and that it was like personal to him from his own kind of ex he described that as like a re-exploration without the prism of faith. And so it was going to be tackling a lot of that.

1:17:17I was very interested from the get-go. And then he was like, you told me about the character. I was like, okay. I was like, yeah, he's all, you know, Psy is great. But I think, yeah, he's fine. He's fine. But so, yeah, I just kind of got a loose, loose picture. And then a few months later, he sent the script. So, but it was like one of those things. You have it on an iPad. It's locked. You have to give it back at some point. Oh, it's one of those. Yeah, yeah. I mean, of course. It's like, you know, it's the one script you don't want things getting out because it's going to ruin literally the whole.

1:17:50That is true. Yeah. Were you tempted to film it and put it on the internet? No, absolutely not. Lose out on my potential job. No, you could have just said to Ryan, I'm in character. Ryan, look, thanks for the offer, but I've just leaked the script. So I just thought that would be more beneficial for my career. Therefore, he couldn't say no. Yeah, and they'd be like, actually, you're perfect for it. Kaylee, first time you got the screenplay? What was the experience of reading it? I haven't read one of these Knives Out screenplays that Ryan has done. I imagine the writing is primo. Yeah, it felt like you just, it was sort of like whiplash reading it.

1:18:31I couldn't believe. It's sort of a similar experience getting to watch it for the first time. You just can't believe all of that is contained and you genuinely have no idea where it's going. I promise you, you are not going to guess what happens. I've seen this film, I still don't.

1:18:52It was just so beautiful and I just felt like I had so much heart. I just loved the way that he was. He felt quite like, oh my God, am I going to do this? This is the biggest swing I've taken yet. he wasn't sure like how am I going to pull this off of course he did because he's just genius he's one of one I think what I love about it as well is the emotional layering to this one as well and the heart of it and those deeper messages of like forgiveness, grace I thought they were so powerful in the film and I think yeah that's what's made me I think it's very special in that way that's a beautiful film beautiful film and that's as close as we're getting to Sporter territory guys I'm glad you go I know what to do with our hands I've never done this before but should we do a go team just to finish off absolutely on three one two three go team alright thanks okay that was Daryl McCormack and Kaylee Spaney and Wake Up Dead Man is on Netflix right now we reviewed it in depth a couple of weeks ago but it's on Netflix now so should we very very quickly remind the folks of what they can expect is this the third film in the Benoit Blanc franchise worth a few how's bells Jimbo is it worth a watch?

1:20:06Yes, definitely. Yes, definitely. Great. Also, it's on Netflix. There's no excuse. Every single person listening to this must watch it. What if they don't have Netflix? Yeah, they might not have Netflix. That's totally fine. Don't be ridiculous. It's against the law. Well, it soon will be. But no, I believe it is still optional. Having said that, if you don't have Netflix but someone you know does, it is worth going over there to watch this movie because it's really fun. It's funny. It's smart. It's twisty turny. it's much more Catholic than the others, but in a fun and interesting way. Glass Onion was filled with Catholicism.

1:20:43Maybe it was. But it discusses faith in interesting ways and it discusses, you know, different views on it. And I thought, I really liked that about it. You know, Joshua Connor, who's kind of the central character this time, is a priest. And it is worth mentioning that. A hot priest? Yes, he kind of is. Yes, he is. The murder takes place in a church during mass. This is a very, very religious film. And yet, Benoit Blanc himself remains defiantly... Sorry, you can't criticize my pronunciation of MAGA and then go Benoit Blanc. Benoit Blanc. Quoi? Benoit. Benoit. Benoit. Benoit Blanc. Voilà. I suspect foul pronunciation.

1:21:23That's fair. Anyway, he's very good. He is. And is not religious and gives a nice outsider's perspective on the whole thing. Yes. And if this doesn't sell you, then nothing will. Daniel Craig in Benoit Blanc voice goes, Wiggly, wiggly, wiggly. Slip the meat. Who said this podcast wasn't sexy?

1:21:47So there we go. Four stars in for Wake Up Dead Man. I guess that counts as a review. I don't know. Yes, it does. It does. Okay. But there are other films out this week. Another one is on Netflix, actually. This is a film that Beth and Helen have conspired to talk about on Helen's contraband podcast, bar humbug, illegal podcast, talking about Christmas movies. It is Kate Winslet's directorial debut. Debut. And this is Goodbye June. June! No, the other one with a J. Damn it! I thought that was just Denny von Neu's new title for the third film, Goodbye June. Yeah. Oh, that would be amazing, wouldn't it?

1:22:31That would be hilarious. Wow. I would so love to see that. All right. So yeah, this is in cinemas this week. It'll be on Netflix, I believe, on the 24th of December. Just in time for Boxing Day. Hurrah. I mean, also other things. Yes, exactly that. So this is, it's a really hard sell as Christmas movies go. First of all, it's called Goodbye June, which doesn't, you know, scream Christmas movie as a title. And then the entire plot of the film is essentially about the long, slow death of Helen Mirren. That was the working title initially. Helen Mirren, I should say, plays the titular June. We should also say she's alive and well.

1:23:10She is alive and well, thank God, and doing much better than poor June. Poor June is unwell and is taken into hospital soon after the start of this film, and it is made clear to her family that she may not be in any condition to really leave again. So they are basically in the countdown to both Christmas and the death of their beloved matriarch. And her daughters are played by Kate Winslet herself, Andrea Rysborough and Toni Collette, with her son played by Johnny Flynn. Timothy Spall is the wife. The wife? The wife? The husband. The male wife. The male wife. The Mr. Wife. The Mr. Wife of Helen Mirren's character.

1:23:45And yeah, this is a family Christmas movie about dealing with grief and loss and saying goodbye to your loved one. And then literally a family film in that it's written by Kate Winslet's son, who is called Joe Joe Anders Rob Rex Ray Boyd Winslet it is it is a three letter name well his name is actually Joe yes Joe Anders Joe Anders who wrote this film and he's like 12 isn't he something like that he's really he's annoyingly young early 20s early 20s yes and it's it's got the energy of a first screenplay and in that it's I mean it's very ambitious it's you know So it's balancing this ensemble and there's no kind of, most of the storylines are kind of up there on the same level and each level is incredibly emotional and jam-packed with feelings all the time.

1:24:39Some great performances, really, really fantastic. Really love Johnny Flynn in this. Yes. He plays, yeah, as Helen said, he's one of the siblings, but he's got this kind of inner battle going on that kind of manifests in panic attacks and he's pretty depressed and kind of obviously as these times do exacerbates all of those feelings and he's just wonderful in it. Stephen Merchant pops up. Yeah, he's barely in it but he's really, really good when he is in it and Kate Winslet and Andrea Risborough are kind of at loggerheads in this. They're sisters who just do not see eye to eye at all. Gee, I wonder if that will be rectified during the course of the movie.

1:25:20I really like this, I have to say. I went in with my skepticism-ometer turned up to 11 and going, this is written by a 20-something son of the director. Okay, how did this get made, Nepo baby? Prove me wrong, Nepo baby. And he did. I know what you mean, but it has first, not only does it have first screenplay energy, it also has first directorial effort energy to an extent. There are a couple of scenes I think are a little bit woolly that they could have done with maybe cutting. But I have to say that it really got me emotionally. I was a sobbing, heaving wreck in the screen room I saw this in.

1:26:02It brought back memories of saying goodbye to my parents as well. This is that, but stretched out to feature length. But with a bit of a Christmassy aspect as well. So to alleviate the pain. There's a real warmth. There is a warmth to it. And while it is a hard sell to people, it is not... it is not an un-Christmassy movie in a strange way, because it is about family and finding the things that bind you and getting through all your petty irritations with each other and kind of, you know, rediscovering that bond. And I think that is very Christmassy. Like Fast and Furious? I guess so. Yeah, yeah, I guess so.

1:26:39Or indeed Die Hard. There you go, James. Now you can go back to sleep. No, he's got to wake up in a second to review Fackham Hall. Oh, yeah. God damn it. but yeah I liked it a lot Hells Bells you're right in the review of this I'm right in the review yeah it's on the 3-4 borders right now and I don't actually know which way it's going to fall I'd probably be a 4 based purely on my emotional reaction to it I would probably be a 4 that's fair but listen I don't want to push you in either direction but Helen's giving it 4 stars 4 stars then for goodbye June June yeah really takes out the movie when they do that Every time they say her name.

1:27:18Then James bursts through the walls and goes, June! Jimbo. Yes. You've been naughty. So we made you watch Facom Hall. Now, I should say that this is a film I enjoyed a great deal. And you told me that before I saw it. That you had guffawed within the first five minutes. I guffawed many, many times at this movie. Guess how many times I guffawed? It's a number between zero and one. Yes. All right. What is Facom Hall, James? Facom Hall? Even the way you say it sounds like it's a rancid insult. Yeah, sounds a lot like fuck them all. And that basically is the pinnacle of humour here. This is one of those...

1:27:54Oh, stop it. This is one of those spoof things. Look, the spoof is having a resurgence at the moment. And I cannot, I will not, I absolutely must not sanction this buffoonery because I cannot stand a spoof. Does an airplane leave you cold? So, I think Airplane, to a lesser extent, Naked Gun, the original, to a greater extent are grandfathered in with me a little bit where I have an affection for them despite their genre but I do not have time for the kind of puerile silliness which essentially gives most of these films their comedic fodder but we've got like we've had Spinal Tap this year we've had another Naked Gun there's a scary movie Spaceballs is fucking coming back like this is I'm just going to stop going to the cinema at some point because this is going to upset me so much well there will be any simmers to go too well I mean that's true Netflix said that way Merry Christmas everybody but this is kind of in theory an intersection of something I hate the spoof with something I love, Downton Abbey.

1:28:44Because this is, yes, exactly. Oh, I see why you don't like this. Yes, yes, yes, Chris. This is just like an Iron Man 3 where they attack Tony Stark where he lives. Exactly that. Downton Abbey is no laughing matter and you will not mock it. And I'm frankly, on behalf of Lord Grantham and the Crawleys, I'm thoroughly offended by this whole endeavor. But all I'm going to say is, look, it is a period drama parody. It is essentially a Downton spoof. And the story, such as it is, is the story of Thackham Hall, which is the home of the Davenport family, their ancestral home. It's in jeopardy because Lord Davenport, which is Damien Lewis, he has no male heir and he may die.

1:29:23No spoilers there. And their eldest daughter, Poppy, was going to marry Tom Felton, like cousin Matthew in Downton Abbey, to secure its legacy. That falls through, so it falls to their younger daughter, Rose, played by Thomas and Mackenzie, to sort of form an alliance to secure the family home. That's the broad set up. Then there's a murder, and then it all goes a bit Poirot. And look, the plot is kind of irrelevant to this because it hinges on whether or not this particular frequency of humour tickles your particular antenna. And if you find a detective called what funny, cue much sub Abbott and Costello, what's his name?

1:30:00What is his name? What, what? And the fact that the main character who is a no one, is called literally no one, that is his last name. If this is your level of comedy, this is the film for you. Chris had a fucking whale of a time. exactly that I on the other hand did not enjoy it there is I will say there is a Balzac gag which genuinely made me smile okay smile not laugh crucially and there is also a Hitler gag in the end credits which bizarrely amused me but generally speaking I sat stony faced through this whole thing staring daggers at the screen but more than anything else my question for this film is who's it for because the Venn diagram people who like Downton have no sense of humour but this is my point Literally, so you've got to be familiar enough with Downton Abbey to find the jokes funny and to understand them.

1:30:46But the overlap between people who like spoofs and people who enjoy Downton, I would say, is relatively small. So I'm not sure who this is aimed at, but I am sure I am not that person. It's aimed, James, if you can get your head around this concept, aimed at people who find funny things funny. Easy though. There is a good Bechdel gag in there as well. That's pretty solid. There are good gags every 35 seconds. Every 60 to 65 minutes, there is a good gag, and I was there for it. We should say that this was directed by Jim O 'Hanlon. Yes, co-written by Jimmy Carr. We'll get to that. Who has a track record with stuff like this.

1:31:24He directed Touching Cloth, the John Hanna cop spoof, which was also very funny. So he's very, very good with side gags and background gags and all sorts of stuff. And this was written not only by Jimmy Carr, yes, that Jimmy Carr, but his brother Patrick and some people who aren't even cars they're humans the Dawson brothers Steve and Andrew who have written for Peter Serafinowicz the Brian Butterfield live show I think it was co-written by them they've done a lot of stuff over the years they're very very funny guys and Tim Inman as well and they're gag writers these guys and that's what this film is it is an assortment of very very well observed gags not everything works of course there's a hit right here but I guffawed there was a very early background gag with Damien Lewis that made me laugh very very hard indeed and I have to say that I love the fact that this has a fucking actual cast of actual people it genuinely does though Thomas and Mackenzie Catherine Waterstone Catherine Waterstone Damien Lewis Anna Maxwell Martin yeah absolutely genuinely great people did you not like the joke there's a butler I don't want to give too many gags away but did you not like the joke they have a butler who's very Jim Carter-esque right?

1:32:35yes And he's called Cyril. And they call him Siri. Yes. And they go, hey Siri, what's the weather tomorrow? And he walks in and he goes, tomorrow is going to be rainy with a 40 % chance of sunshine. That is 100 % the level of the humor. That's amazing. I think what we have here, Chris, is you who will laugh at literally anything. And me who will laugh at absolutely nothing. And this film probably falls somewhere in between our two tastes. All right. So there's between my five stars and my one star. And James' one star. we will find the truth of Thackham Hall. If you find things funny and have a quote-unquote humor, you might enjoy this film.

1:33:13Jimmy Carr's cameo in this as a priest made me laugh a lot. Of course it did. It is base humor. For the oics. For the oics. You know, the plebs. Yes, that's right. The little people. The crawlies would have none of this. None of it, I tell you. But you, a downstairs person, you loved it. This is our own little upstairs-downstairs dynamic, isn't it, Chris? Well, we often have that changed, don't we? Again, for the OnlyFans. You could call it OnlyBangs. Oh, boy. So, I don't know we have an official review of this. I don't know that we do. Say the average of our two, it probably hits a three. We could do the average, or we could do rock, paper, scissors.

1:33:52No, because there's a chance you'll win, and that would be a travesty. We're doing it. We're doing it. Rock, paper, scissors. All right, so best of one. Best of one. It's all or nothing. This is great. Ready? Describe what's happening. Right, okay. one, two, three paper for Chris rock for James has encased James' rock five stars then for Fackham Hall hey I said last week that every film in the Christmas season would get five stars anyway God bless us everyone five stars then for Goodbye June five stars for Wake Up Dead Man five stars for Fackham Hall exciting stuff Will it be five stars for the next film?

1:34:34That's the question. Yes. What is the next film? Eleanor the Great. Eleanor the Great. Bethany. Hi. Tell us about this film. Sure. Another first feature. Yeah. It's a big week to debut, isn't it? Hollywood actor, yeah. Yes. This one, the very Scarlett Johansson. She is directing this with a script by Tori Kamen. It is starring the wonderful, wonderful 96-year-old and in her prime. You love June Squibb. June Squibb. I am a June Squibb scholar, sir. Hello, June. Third time. I spoke to her for the magazine recently, and it was the third time I'd spoken to her in a year. And it's not enough, man. Does she think you're related to her by now?

1:35:15She's just like, you're calling her, and she's going, this must be my young niece. My youngest granddaughter, surely. She plays the titular, Eleanor, who, after her lifelong best friend, passes away tragically, moves to New York to be with her daughter and her grandson. She strikes up a friendship with a 19-year-old girl called Nina, who's played by Erin Kellyman, who you will see very soon in the new 28 Years Later film, The Bone Temple. Yeah. And it's a wonderfully New York-set friendship movie, an unlikely friendship between this 94-year-old Eleanor and 19-year-old Nina. Nina is also doing a journalism degree to try and kind of follow in the footsteps of her dad, who's played by Chewadol Ejiofor.

1:36:04So the reason why Nina wants to shadow Eleanor is because she gets caught of guard and tells her best friend's story of being a Holocaust survivor. Eleanor not being a Holocaust survivor, but having lived with her friend for all these years and kind of absorbing her story. and out of lonely motives. She feels very out of sorts and she finds this community of Holocaust survivors who are played by, some are played by real Holocaust survivors in the film. And so Nina starts to tell her story and they form this friendship until inevitably things go awry. But I had so much time for this film. I think Jean Squibb is just on a roll, man.

1:36:46And at 96, that has nothing to be sniffed at. She's on Broadway now. Is she? She's doing a Broadway run of Marjorie Prime. What? She's in her literal prime. That's amazing. Which is fantastic. Good for her. That Hoobie Halloween bounce is really working for her. If anyone can wear a Bonadona t-shirt with a plon, it's Jean Squibb in Hoobie Halloween. Oh, she's amazing. And she's amazing in this. It's an interesting film for Scarlett Johansson to direct. It's not necessarily what I would have put her down for a directorial debut. but where this really sings for me is in the evolution of the friendship against New York I love your Crossing Delance's I love you and Harry Met Sally's and there's these really beautiful organic moments between June Scriven and Erin Kellyman in this is really, really good but it's them sort of forming this very naturalistic friendship in pizza parlours and just sharing loads of delicious food and going for these beautiful walks it really does feel like a love letter to the city and it works but you know it is supposed to be an unlikely friendship but in spite of it it works really wonderfully they kind of bring these generational differences together and work through them and I think there's something really cathartic in that the screenplay at times dips a little bit for me and the way it kind of resolves their issues is a little bit overly sentimental for me but I loved it when it was in its stride as a real New York movie with Gene Squibb and Erin Kellyman just hanging out and becoming friends and getting to watch that.

1:38:25I would have gladly just watched a film about them doing that. No real plot, just them hanging out. That's my favorite part of the film, definitely. And I think you're right. I think that relationship between them is really sweet. This kind of, you've got this older woman who's dealing with grief and loneliness and she just wants to connect with like a daughter who sees her as a human being and not as a burden. And then you've got Erin Kellyman's character who's trying just to be seen by someone in a sort of parental role because her mother's died and her father is kind of emotionally absent. And I think that's the strength of it.

1:38:55And this made me cry, I think, twice. So it definitely affected me emotionally, I thought was lovely. I don't think it's great, though. And I think the two reasons for that is I think all the emotional impact of this works, but it gets very mawkish in a couple of places. But I don't think, I think the gentle comedy and the mawkish sentiment in and of themselves aren't a problem. But when you juxtapose them with the central premise, which is her standing in front of a support group full of Holocaust survivors and essentially making up stories. They're not made up stories because they all have friends' stories.

1:39:24So they kind of get over that. But it made me really uncomfortable. Like I was like, this is a little bit dark and a little bit awkward. And I just think inventing, again, not really inventing, but kind of recounting these full stories of genocide and atrocities in front of actual survivors is just like, oh, it's tricky. I actually think the clever thing that is done here is when she recounts these stories, it switches to the point of view of her friend recounting the stories to her. So you never hear June Squibb reciting their stories. And I think if you had done, that would have been the end of it for me.

1:39:57So I think it's actually handled very delicately insofar as it can be. But tonally, that kind of unevenness didn't sit brilliantly with me. So I didn't dislike it at all. And like I say, it really upset me in places and in a kind of cocklewarming way as well. It's quite sweet and it is about grief and how people deal with grief in different ways. and she is mourning this friend of hers but equally I just the tone was I got whiplash I really did get whiplash from the tone so yeah but June Squibb was great and Erin Kellerman also fabulous yeah I really loved them and I kind of agree I think it's an awkward one to be light and funny about I think they just about walk the tightrope but it's it's perilous a few times yeah three stars in for Eleanor the Great hey everyone It's Chris here, just jumping in real quick to say that yes, I know about the 28 years later 3 news and the Supergirl trailer as well.

1:40:52But both of those dropped after we recorded this week and we weren't able to slot anything in. We will discuss them on next week's show. But here is something I have managed to slot in at the last minute and didn't mention in my intro. It is a lovely interview with the great James L. Brooks. He is, of course, the Oscar-winning writer-director-producer behind films like Terms of Endearment, his debut, Broadcast News and As Good As It Gets. He also is a colossus in the world of TV as creator and co-creator of The Mary Tyler Moore Show and Taxi. And without him and his company Grace Films, The Simpsons simply wouldn't exist.

1:41:31In fact, Brooks calls his work as producer on The Simpsons the day job. and it's been a while since he took a break from that day job to direct a movie. 15 years, in fact, since How Do You Know? But he's back, back, back with Ella McKay, a comedy drama set in the world of politics, starring Emma Mackey as the title character, an idealistic politician trying to steer a path through the thorny world of politics whilst all around her, her personal life descends into chaos. The movie is out today and I had the great pleasure of sitting down with Brooks, who likes to be called Jim, in a London hotel room recently.

1:42:05Our full chat ran for nearly 40 minutes and will be up next week as an interview special. But right now, here's the first 12 minutes or so to wet your whistle. Enjoy. James L. Brooks, how are you? Good, good, good. Good, good, good. Good to see you. Good to see you. Good to have you back behind the camera as well. It's been a while. It's been a minute since you last directed. I've been alongside a camera, but not behind the camera. I produced and been on set for other people. Yes. Yeah. So why the gap? Why the long gap? Got me. I don't have a real reason. I have a day job that I love, which is on The Simpsons.

1:42:49We produced movies coupled with Kelly Fremont Craig, who I think is terrific, writer, director. And they were labors of love. And whenever I'm doing that, I'm on the set every minute.

1:43:06And I'm defensive about it because it seems it shouldn't have been that long. So I am defensive about it. It's now a Kubrickian gap on your CV. I throw myself on the mercy of you. I'm on mercy, yeah. Well, I read an interview with you back in 2017. And you said a couple of interesting things in that interview. You said that anyone who directs has to meet the legal requirements of being insane, first of all. Yes. So maybe you just had to get a run-up to being legally insane again. I don't know. You have to take a breath and then that plunge. Yeah, precisely. The other thing was that you said you were working on a script that you were absolutely in love with.

1:43:48I'm assuming that was Ella McKay. Yeah, it doesn't sound like me to say I was absolutely in love with it. I may be paraphrasing. I saw a bent prick of daylight maybe.

1:44:03So was that Ella McKay that you were working on back then? Yeah, that was Ella McKay. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And then I finished writing it. And then where is she? Who is she? and it would become of a really well-known actress, it becomes something, something else than if you have somebody relatively unknown. And this was at the back of my mind because you can't have it on the front of your mind because people talk about names. It's easier to get your financing. It just makes everything easy to promotion. everything's easier of course if you had theoretically theoretically i you know i i think everything up the mountain is a slog but theoretically um and then and then she came in during auditions and and it was just i i i didn't believe it because i'd seen very little of her i she had she had a television series but she played a 16 year old in that um and and so So then I didn't believe what I saw that first time, so we did another one right away.

1:45:17And then it was really clear. I mean, our audition piece was her monologue about helping people. And I had the grace in my mind because I, you know, like sort of a tribute to the golden age, you know, the movie, which I think Katherine Heffer and Audrey, you know, I think they're, you know, goddesses of a certain time. Yeah. And it was on my mind, and that kind of pace and energy was on my mind. And then you try and balance it with, hey, we really want to talk about what life really is here, and that doesn't involve all giggles. Wow. But we need many giggles. Yes, absolutely. And Ella is an extraordinarily complex role.

1:46:07You're asking Emma to do a lot here. There's obviously comedic elements. There's physical comedy. She's playing a 16-year-old at some point during the film. So she's playing different ages. She's playing dramatic beats. She's, without giving too much away, stoned for some of the movie as well. She has this lovely virtuous core to her. But there's a lot of complexity also. So it's a unicorn role, right? You're writing this role and you didn't have anyone in mind necessarily. So did you think you would find this person and Emma walks through the door? I've been through that before. I've been through, you know, there was on broadcast news, there was nobody, there was nobody, there was nobody, there was nobody.

1:47:02And then the casting director says there's a girl passing through town. She hasn't done much. It was Holly Hunter, who gave this incredible performance. And here, you know, and here I went to London and I auditioned. You know, I looked in London. We have so many Brits in this movie. Yes. Thank you for that, by the way. Thank you for that. That's okay. I had nothing to do with it. And, you know, I came here and saw her, and then there was a second one, and thank heavens, you know, you've got to catch a break. What was the starting point for you? It was a very simple one. I was researching. You know, I tend to do, you know, just random research.

1:47:55I don't know quite what I'm looking for. And I started to edge a little into politics. And I was with the ex-governor of a state, which is a very big job. I mean, you're the chief executive of a hunk of the United States. And I was having breakfast with this person and this person's maid. and the thing came up that six years ago, it just came up at breakfast that the mate had, that the governor had forgotten to thank the mate in a speech. And it came up six years later and it was still an open wound. And that was, then a light went off that this was still that alive, that hurt was still that alive.

1:48:50So that was sort of one of the things I started with. Interesting. So and then from there, how did that develop into what we have? Yeah, yeah. And, you know, I always think, you know, your job is to clock the laughs when you're doing a comedy, but there should be meat on the bone. And I hope we had good meat on this bone. In terms of how you approach a screenplay, your first screenplay was produced starting over, that was towards the end of the 70s. So you've been writing for the screen now for over 50 years? You know, the big screen, the small screen as well for a little longer, of course. How has the process changed for you?

1:49:34Were you doing research back then, back in the 70s for starting over and then something just happens? You know something, in television, when I did my first television show, I created my first television show, there was a great director-producer who was my boss, and it was about high school kids, and he kept on sending me back to high school. I did it. I did it. I did two weeks of high school. I spoke to the teacher. It's great. Go back there. Go back there. And it became, and you know, and until, and then suddenly you break through, and you realize there's a moment when the research stops being just asking questions, you're beginning to get it.

1:50:14I think it takes a certain amount of time to just get it. That was a great lesson. In terms of the story then, for this, you have this idea of the open wound, which festers, the forgetting to thank someone in the speech, which, which, again, not to give too much away, does happen in LMK. And then focusing on the idea of an idealistic politician, someone who wants to do good as a politician in this world right now, where it's harder to do that than ever before. Right. Was that something that was attractive to you to explore? The idea of the worker being outside the spotlight and being great at it, So much so that the person in the spotlight, who isn't particularly good at his job, is able to look damn good at his job.

1:51:05And he moves out and suddenly the spotlight hits her. And it's so difficult. Yeah. It's so difficult. And were you at all inspired by what is happening politically right now? Not right now. I wanted to stay clear what's right now. I mean, I'm hardly inspired by what's happening right now. Not positively inspired, but perhaps just inspired to show that there are politicians who do want to do good, who do have good intentions. Yes, yes, yes. And it's incredibly difficult to do so. Yes, yes, yes. And she shouts to the heavens at one point, you can't be popular and fix anything. Yeah. Yeah. So talk me through some more of the research that you did, Jim, for this.

1:51:51So once you get the idea and you're beginning to build it out. I spoke to governors, spoke to staff, and as did Emma. Emma did a lot of that too. There was one day I was researching and I saw a woman who was lieutenant governor of the state. And the room was about this size and she was on the stage at a state fair. And the benches were sparsely filled and she was terrible at speech making. It was like your kid was bombing at assembly. And it was just, and she was almost the Ella story. She had policy. She knew all about it, but put her up there and it begins to, and I am proud to announce that she has since learned how to do that and is one of our more brilliant United States senators.

1:52:49Can we talk about how you've changed as a director as well over the years? Because it's been 42 years now since Terms of Endearment came out. What was the Jim Brooks who directed that film like as a director? Well, the great thing when you do your first movie is Innocence, the thing you never get back and it's so great not to know it you know that that thing where and and you have that kind of excitement and and and and and somehow this and and there's a there's a freedom to it because you you don't know what's come before there's a and there's an excitement to it you see trucks coming with cameras and you wrote the script and everybody's setting up this thing and you wrote it now you're going to get to make it and and um and and it's and so that's that's a kind of um and that innocence and that excitement you know just that well i better do this right or i'll never get to do it again you know that kind of that kind of edge that's there um uh i think another word for it is is is it's a thrill ride okay that was james l brooks talking about Ella McKay, which is in cinemas right now.

1:54:08And if you want to hear more, James L. Brooks, the full interview special will be up next week. He talks about working with Jack Nicholson. He talks about working in broadcast news, his friendship with Albert Brooks over the years, and of course, The Simpsons and much, much more. But right now, it's time to go back to the show. Take us home, Chris. Take us home. but on that note that is it for this week's Empire Podcast join us next week for more film related fun the last film related fun of the year we'll be joined by you'll like this Jimbo Quaritch yes Colonel Miles the true hero of the Avatar movies himself you're speaking my slanguage and I like it Stephen Lang Quaritch himself will be on this podcast and also the legendary Glenn Close and her little dog too to Star of Wake Up and Incredibly Close.

1:55:04No, I think she's just normal volume. And we sat the normal distance apart from each other as well. But that'll be on next week's show. But until then, until we meet again, until that auspicious occasion, it's goodbye from my three colleagues of such lethal cunning. Goodbye to you, James Dyer. Goodbye. Now I have another podcast, a Pallet TV podcast. Ho, ho, ho. Goodbye, Beth Webb. Bye, bye to you. Goodbye. Merry Christmas if you're not on next week's podcast. I'm not sure if you are. Merry Christmas to you. Merry Christmas. Again, not been asked. Well, Beth, as you know, I have a fairly easy approach to these podcasts.

1:55:40I wander in and go, are you available to do the podcast? Goodbye, Helen O 'Hara. Toodaloo. That's all. Okay, bye. Come listen to Bar Humbug. Okay, Helen, thanks. For one month only. And it's goodbye from me. I'm off to get one of those calendars that people talk about. Must write down in my calendar a reminder to buy oh I see where I've gone wrong here thanks for listening see you next time bye James bye bye