Tintin In Space! (ft. guest, Ian McKellen)

27:55Chris Hewitt:That's right. So that's pretty wild. That's pretty cool. Wildwood. Wildwood. There we go. David Koepp. We love David Koepp. He's a friend of the podcast. The writer, of course, of Jurassic Park and Carlito's Way and this summer's Steven Spielberg movie, Disclosure Day. And he is on board to write a remake of Westworld over at Warner Brothers. And there is already speculation suggesting that Spielberg might come on to direct this. So shall we explain what Westworld is for people who don't know? It's Jurassic Park if it was cowboys. Cowboy robots. Cowboy robots instead of dinosaurs, yeah. So this is Michael Crichton's kind of proto-Jurassic Park.

28:36Chris Hewitt:So Michael Crichton wrote and directed this movie in the 1970s. I actually recently interviewed Richard Benjamin, who is the star of that movie, along with Yul Brynner and James Brolin, but he's the lead, the hero of the movie. He's now in his 80s. I did him for the time capsule thing we do in the magazine, and he was fantastic. You know, still sharp as a tack. Really, really great guy. I love Westworld. So Westworld's about essentially this theme park. It has different zones. It has like a medieval zone. It has a Roman zone. It has a Western zone, the Westworld, where you go around and you pretend to be in a Western, and you can face off against an evil robotic gunslinger played by Yul Brynner in the movie.

29:20Chris Hewitt:of course, you know, from The Magnificent Seven, essentially playing the same character, but only evil and robotic. Only you're guaranteed to win, because he's a robot, and he's programmed to do so. But the robots programming rebels, and all the robots lead an uprising. And the film is terrific, and of course you've probably heard the name if you haven't seen the film, because there was recently the HBO show Jimbo. Lisa Joy and Joan and Ellen show, which ran for four seasons, and I think lost, so it started out as a puzzle box show, and it became slightly more abstract than science fiction as it went along.

29:50I really liked it it's a shame that it kind of got cancelled before it finished the story before it finished the story yeah because it moved out of the park towards the end and I think it lost some people then but yeah it was really good stuff really good stuff I think a lot of the reaction to this news online has been we just won season 5 right exactly that and I'm kind of in that camp to be honest I don't necessarily need another retelling of Crutton's original story just finish this one fuckers yeah but I mean look if they can do a good job I guess but yeah I think it's it's odd timing given that it has been done sort of so recently and so belovedly.

30:22Yeah, so well.

30:23Chris Hewitt:Yeah, it is interesting, but I imagine Kep, he's a smart guy, he's probably got a good take on this. Harry, have you seen the original? I have seen the original. I'm actually really looking forward to this. I think, I do enjoy that original film, but I do think it's fair that kind of, does kind of fall into a bit of just like a chase. It's pre-Terminator, essentially. Yeah, it's pre-Terminator, Terminator. So I'm kind of interested in the idea of them having another crack at it and with Kep doing it, I feel like, hey, he did one Nature Gone Wrong film really well so I'm like hoping that him and if possibly Spielberg wanted to do it it'd be like another really good one but no I'm really looking forward to this I'm glad they're making it but will people really want to watch something about AI being evil and not to destroy us all I don't know man it's too far fetched I wouldn't believe it our everyday at this point that's very very true it might be a cautionary tale but yeah again I'm excited about this but you know Westworld comes out in the 70s when westerns were still very much the thing.

31:18Chris Hewitt:And Yul Brynner is just a few years away past Magnificent Seven at that point. So the cultural references are there really, really strong. And Westerns aren't that big a thing these days. So I wonder if they might have to update it or maybe change the tone of the references. Do you think they'll widen it beyond the one part of the park? Isn't that what they do in the show? Is it the show? They do, yeah. She got to Samurai World in season two. Yeah. But there was a sequel called Future World as well. But if it's called Westworld, I wanted to be set in a Westworld. But who knows? All right, there's also new Planet of the Apes movie news.

31:53Chris Hewitt:Why are you saying? Why do you hate the apes? Apes together, strong. Helen on her own, weak. Why do you hate the apes? Hasn't it been done? God, we've had four of them in like 10 years. Move on. This story is progressing. Is it? Yes. I'm not sure if it is. Apparently this is not a sequel to the last one. The story's not progressing. Oh, it's like Planet of the Badgers. Yeah. I've just gone for a completely different mammal. Now actually, now I'm back on board. Get your hands off me, you damn dirty badger. Yeah. I'm up for that. So this is, I didn't know it was a brand new Planet of the Apes movie because the last one, Wes Ball's Kingdom of the Planet of the Apes.

32:40Chris Hewitt:A film that we all remember very clearly. that had a kind of open-ended ending it seemed to be setting up a trilogy then he went off to do Legend of Zelda or is it just called Zelda? I don't know but he went off to do that anyway so they've moved on to a new director 20th Century Studios have and it's Matt Shackman Matt Shackman who of course last year directed The Fantastic Four First Steps and that film's writer as well Josh Friedman is going to be writing this so you know I enjoyed Good people First Steps his work on WandaVision was also excellent I feel like they played it a little bit too safe with that movie they maybe second guessed themselves a little bit more than they might have done Marvel a few years ago but I think he came out of it pretty well this maybe means that there's no plans for an FF sequel imminently so he's got time to go off and do this that may well be the case yes but I'm going to ask someone who's excited about this movie because Helen hates the apes.

33:42Chris Hewitt:She hates penguins and apes. I don't hate apes. I just think it's done. Hello. You must, I guess, be excited about this? Any kind of simian really appeals to me, so yes. I don't know if excited. I really enjoy the more recent Planet of the Apes trilogy. I think that's really great, particularly the middle installment, Dawn. But I didn't love Kingdom and the Planet of the Apes, so I enter this with a certain amount of reservation but optimism Harry, Apes Together strong? Apes Together kind of strong I mean same as James I love the especially the Matt Reeves the two Matt Reeves films however I was not a massive fan of Kingdom I think I had some cool ideas and I was at the Proxima Caesar stuff of like taking the idea of Caesar and doing something a bit not great with it but then that kind of gets dropped all at the end so I'm a little bit sad that they're not trying to continue that but I won't lie like a new I found that film forgettable and I found First Steps quite forgettable so I don't hold out loads of hope for this one if I'm being honest Planet of the Badgers yeah I'd watch Planet of the Badgers alright so those are things that are definitely happening so David Koepp is writing Westworld Matt Shackman is going to direct a new Planet of the Apes movie things that might happen alright Galadriel well speaking of Galadriel Peter Jackson hooray is threatening to make Tintin 2 hey and will not stop until his demands are met.

35:09Chris Hewitt:And sadly, his demands are, let me make Tintin too. Yeah. Are you going to stand for Tintin? You can't criticize the apes. I can absolutely criticize the apes. And then stand by Tintin. Apes have been done like 10 times. Tintin has been done once. And why is that? Because Tintin's shit. Tintin is good. Tintin has been around for 90 years for a reason, damn it. bludgeoned Tintin with a faz and not a musculate if Chris saw her gay on the street he'd just hit him knock him straight down I'd be like one hit on the deck that is harsh I'm gonna sick snowy on you why are we beating the shit out Tintin I don't know because he's annoying stupid haircut stupid haircut and I like the dog the dog's nice but no Tintin I just I have no affection for Tintin whatsoever but anyway there was a movie made a few years ago which I was on set of but let's move on were you on set of?

36:06yeah do you remember he went for that meeting? I went for a meeting with Uncle Stephen your definition of on set is fair no they got invited on to the volume because he let me control the volume camera oh that explains a lot yeah so what I'm saying is I take responsibility for all the bad shots in the film because that was me there were no bad shots how even dare you I realise I'm very much

36:26Chris Hewitt:in the minority in this one but what was it 2011 Steven Spielberg and Peter Jackson combined to make Secret of the Unicorn Secret of the Unicorn, The Adventures of Tintin, and it was meant to be the first in a series of Tintin movies that were all mo-cap, they were animated, and Spielberg was the first one to direct it, and then Jackson was meant to direct his follow-up immediately afterwards, and then... Didn't. Didn't. Didn't. Yeah. But now he says he is, and that the screenplay has been written for Tintin 2, and he is going to direct it. I honestly think this could be good, because I've watched Tintin again with small niece and nephew, who are really into it, and they've been reading all the comics and everything as well.

37:01And they didn't want to punch him repeatedly? They did not want to punch him even once. So they didn't actually really read it. They did read it. How dare you? They're very good readers, actually.

37:10Chris Hewitt:They didn't want to beat him with sticks. No, and they in fact got very upset when other people beat him with sticks. I didn't read that one. Does Tintin get beaten up a lot? So often. Yeah, he gets hit over the back of the head more than James Bond does. Okay, yeah. And presumably the resulting damage from that is evident in his actions. It's why Snowy has to do all the hard work of solving the case, usually. Yeah. look no Tintin is fun and can be well done and I hope I don't know if this is going to be a direct sequel and if it's going to continue the story of the unicorn or if they'll go and do you know the Tintin in space kind of stuff because that rocket is real cool I like the idea of Tintin in space because he might not come down again oh my goodness you are a monster I would also just like to see Peter Jackson making you know narrative films again it feels like it's been a little while it's been a while yeah it has been when was the last we don't count the Hobbits so it's been really long because I don't like it very much you were the big opinions this week by that logic are we saying the Lovely Bones is the last no we don't like that one either no how far are we going back the Frank Kong King Kong King Kong I'm not the father of King Kong no tough okay fuck it Return of the King alright okay no I'm being I'm exaggerating the Hobbit isn't terrible you need to just you know as much we all love the Beatles Peter yeah we do and it's a really interesting project it's fascinating as is you know they shall never grow old isn't that right that was a fascinating project but I want Peter Jackson fiction yep as someone who adored especially the early gory Peter Jackson movies Bad Taste and Meet the Feebles and Brain Dead and The Frighteners I want that Peter Jackson back and it's been it's been too long and maybe this will be it with a now geriatric Jamie Bell in the lead role of Tintin who was it Simon Pegg and Nick Frost as the Thompson twins Thompson twins yes Thompson Thompson who played Snowy Snowy did Snowy played Snowy yeah played himself very clever so this could be good and you know every day is Christmas Eve and my glass is always half full so I am very much looking forward to Peter Jackson's Tin Tin 2 as I'm sure you guys are looking forward to Kyle Newacek's Grown Ups 3 because Adam Sandler is also threatening to make that I will not budge until his demands are met and again his demands are please let me make Grown Ups 3.

39:33Grown Ups 2 is still the only film I've walked out of the cinema of. I sympathize with you. Were you just upset that Rob Schneider wasn't in it? I was so young. I don't know. I just remember hating it and I walked out. Harry, you are

39:46Chris Hewitt:a Rob Schneider completist. Yeah. Famously. It's all you talk about in the office. So yeah, this is really upsetting for me because it kind of has brought back the memory of a film that I just don't want to think of. I love The Sandman. As people, regular listeners to the show will know, I love Adam Sandler. But Grown Ups is so bad. Grown Ups is a movie, in case you don't know, in which Adam Sandler and his mates just goof around on camera. And it's so bad. And his mates include Chris Rock, David Spade, Kevin James, and in the first movie, at least, Rob Schneider. And it's terrible. Just clunking jokes that don't work.

40:24Chris Hewitt:It's got a really smug air that I couldn't stand. and the sequel is no better. But I will say, Kyle knew a check. He directed Happy Gilmore 2 and he's got pretty decent chops. So there's a chance this one might be good because there wasn't really a sense of a directorial voice on the first two grown-ups. I think they just set a camera up and went. It felt that way. Yeah, it felt very much like who are the hottest women we can cast as our wives? Honestly, Adam Sandler's wags is a source of endless fascination to me. That man is doing very well for himself. He's punching. Well, that's your phrase, Helen.

41:09Chris Hewitt:I'm not sure it's a phrase that I would wish to use, but let's look at Adam Sandler's wives and girlfriends on the big screen over the years. So we have Kate Beckinsale. I mean, come on. We have Salma Hayek. We have Drew Barrymore. We have Winona Ryder. I mean it just it goes on and on we have Jennifer Aniston it's it's very impressive and again I love this animat he's a great guy and his own wife is very pretty his own wife is very very beautiful absolutely and I totally get it and funny guys get the good looking ladies and well your own wife is very attractive that's very very kind of you to say I agree but you know she's settled for me I'm not a funny guy but what can you do but yeah I just don't know I don't know I don't know anyway anything else before we wrap this section up should we talk about the 28 years later Alfie Williams thing yes since the Bone Temple has come out obviously they announced the third film before the Bone Temple came out and then the Bone Temple sadly did not make that much money at the box office so it's kind of been not spoken about since that film came out and then Alfie Williams took to Instagram this week and put like a post of him with a bow and arrow and he plays Spike he plays Spike yes in the film and yeah Yeah, and it kind of got the internet talking.

42:26He sort of said something like, nice to be back. Yeah, good to be back or something along those lines. And so everyone's now going mad on the internet being like, it is actually happening. And please, please let it happen. Please, please let it happen. Because how can you end the series on that final note of the Bone Temple? So yeah, fingers crossed it is actually happening.

42:42Chris Hewitt:I really, really hope it is happening. I thought those first two movies were terrific and Nia DaCosta's Bone Temple didn't do that well at the box office and doesn't seem to have fared that well in streaming. and it's very violent and it's a very divisive movie very gory I think it put a lot of people off and also maybe people were just a little bit weirded out by the concept of a sequel to a horror movie or something that's not in the MCU or the DCU Jimbo that comes out six months after the first one and they just maybe two people by surprise maybe they weren't ready for it there was certainly a discussion where someone was saying that people didn't necessarily realize that it was not the same film do you know what I mean and didn't Nia Nakosta say something along that something that I interviewed Yeah, the people were slightly confused by what it was.

43:24If you're not as tied into what's going on in the world of cinema, they were just slightly confused. Is it re-released? What is it? It was so close as well to that first film. It was close. People had no idea what to think. But speaking of someone who falls into that bucket that you mentioned, Chris, people who were put off, the violence of that, I didn't think it was a bad film at all, and the performances were great, but the violence was too much for me. And it actually, it really, I think, honestly damaged my enjoyment of the film. I found it a little bit too much.

43:49Chris Hewitt:I don't think you were alone in that, to be honest. Also, I think, honestly, I think the Danny Boyle film, 28 years later, is amazing. But is, again, a very weird proposition. Very divisive. Very off-putting. And I don't know how many people, like regular punters, not like horror hardcores or geeks, came out of that going, I need to see more of this. Which is a real shame, because The Bone Temple's terrific. And it obviously has a very, very tantalizing setup for part three. Well, it does. and that's the thing is that when you get to the end of that film it really makes you want to see how this particular story ends so I mean I may not have loved The Bone Temple but I really really want there to be a third one so I hope this is true I really do me too yeah I did love The Bone Temple just for the sheer madness of the swings it took and I think if that's what we're working from to go into a third one is really exciting fingers crossed that that was a hint at the third part and not just him doing some archery lessons and going I'm really glad to be back.

44:51Chris Hewitt:Fingers crossed. Fingers crossed. All right, should we have a guest? Let's have a guest. Shall we have, in fact, you're going to have Ian McKellen. Oh, yeah. Oh, yes, indeed. The legendary Ian McKellen who is, of course, Gandalf in the Hobbit films. Oh, boy. Yes, famously. Disrespectful. He is Mike Neato in X-Men The Last Stand. You're awesome. What? He's a legend. He is a ruddy legend, one of the greatest actors this country has ever produced, and a fantastic, fantastic movie star as well. And now he's in his 80s, he's just doing whatever the fuck he wants. I love that about him. And this week he is in The Christophers, which is Steven Soderbergh's latest movie, which is set in and around the world of art and art forgery.

45:41Chris Hewitt:and it's essentially a two-hander, well, four hands really, between Ian McKellen as the renowned but reclusive artist Julian Scalar and Michaela Cole as a young up-and-coming artist who becomes his assistant, but there may be ulterior motives. I think that's a fair summation of things. Yeah. And it's a cracking movie, this, and Ian McKellen is terrific in it as Julian Scalar. and we jumped at the chance to send John Eugent along to interview him just last week for this movie not just because it's Ian McKellen but because this interview took place at The Grapes which is the pub that Ian McKellen owns on Narrow Street in London down in Limehouse and we sent John along to talk to him about The Christophers so here it is, enjoy So Ian McKellen, welcome to the Empire Podcast Thank you very much How are you sir?

46:35I'm very well today, the sun's out. It's a lovely day for it and it's a lovely spot to be having this chat for the listeners at home. We're in your pub, we're in the Grapes. We are in the Grapes pub in Limehouse on the river where it's been for the last 400, 500 years. Yeah. In one form or another. How long have you been the landlord? Well, I'm not a landlord, I'm a co-licensee. Right, okay. I hope that was going to mean that I'd have my name out over the door, you know, licensed to Ian McKellen for the sale of Porter and Stout. Yes. But no, they don't seem to do that anymore. So I have a marginal control of what happens in the pub.

47:22And I come here as an imbiber. Yes. Well, you pointed out just before we started, your wizard staff is behind the bar. It is. That's a lovely touch. To control hobbits and drinkers alike. If anyone needs to get kicked out, then you can just wave it. No, it's a beautiful spot. Obviously, we're not here to talk about your pub, though. This is, we're here to talk about The Christophers, which is your amazing new film. Yeah. Am I right in thinking this was a role that was written for you? What so they say? yeah uh you know and i'm i'm happy to believe it's true because they say the same about mikaela cole and uh right she could not be more perfect for the part yeah so maybe uh maybe it's true yes we both fitted into our parts very easily i think so wonderful script wonderful gags yeah yeah there's some fantastic like dialogue in this film which i really love i love julian your character calls his osteopath smells of radishes, which I thought was great.

48:35Yeah, what did you make of Julian? He's like this sort of quite cantankerous artist. What did you make of him? Well, I know a few artists, and they're not cantankerous. They're rather sensitive souls. Sometimes, like David Hockley, stick up for themselves great talkers and proselytizers about their work yeah but other painters i didn't know who have have been more spiky perhaps um i did want to meet francis bacon who used to live next door to this pub actually wow then he found the lights the the southern light coming from the river too right and went elsewhere i don't think he was always easy to get on with i don't know i don't know but anyway this man is very much himself and very much his cat very much uh his own man and i think um based on someone who we're not allowed to know who it is but uh not not a painter yeah no but this the script was so alive there was no problem of trying to understand the character it It was patently obvious what he was like.

49:49Yeah. And I read that you and Ed Solomon, the writer, and Michaela sort of went through the scripts before filming. Well, I'm used to rehearsing and preparing in the company of everybody else, what you do in the theatre. And film, that's frequent. But Stephen absolutely didn't want to do any shared preparation. but didn't mind the two of us Michaela and I and getting together with Ed around my kitchen table over a week actually so we read the script together we got familiar with each other which was very helpful and then we questioned the script and said why is this here and made a few cuts and a few rearrangements and each day these suggestions went to the director who approved them I think almost always yeah so that was very helpful indeed and then you arrive on set the amazing sets and sitting in my studio was Stephen Soderbergh wow you met him on the first day of filming oh no I met him before that but there he was with the camera by his side yeah and off you go suggesting we got on with it he was clearly going to be in the film as it were yeah it's through his eye that you see these characters yes and of course the director is always there deciding where you will look in the theatre there is no editor there's no director in the theatre you can look where you want but there's something quite theatrical about this film isn't there it's sort of one location it could be a play right but it's not it's a movie it's not yes I think it's because there's a lot of dialogue yes it's a talkie it's a talkie yeah yeah nothing wrong with that no absolutely I'm always saying in my little give me some give me some speeches but the comic characters don't speak very much they no they ejaculate he ejaculated They wave their arms around.

52:10Pow, pow, pow, pow. No, there's very little ejaculation in this film. No, but it's such a rich, like, I think there's one section which is 33 minutes of dialogue I heard. Is there? Oh, I hope it doesn't feel like that. Yes. Well, it's a talking. That's how these people communicate. and I suppose it's ironic that two painters should be so good at talking. But she's very good at listening, of course. Brilliant listener. There's a great talent for an actor. Yeah. One you have to develop. Don't think what you're going to say next. Listen to what's being said to you. Yeah. Well, if there's a script you could rely on and lean on and reclined into.

53:05It wasn't one that constantly needed your support the other way around. Yeah, there's a lot going on there, isn't there? There's so much sort of complexity and sort of psychological back and forth between the characters. Yes, there is. And Julian, your character, is quite a tetchy man, but he's also someone you feel very strongly for. I felt very moved by the end of it. Did you? Yeah. Yeah. Well, because I think by the end he's been honest and open, confessional, and he's a man who lost love. Yes.

53:50And turned into something that was less good than he had been or could be. and he sort of realises that by the end. Some sort of redemption. But we mustn't make it sound like a psychological tale of woe. No, not at all. It's a comedy. It's very funny and very, very fast. It never slows down. It doesn't hang about. It doesn't hang about at all. And it's such an interesting meditation on art. Well, it is. although it's not just that yes it is it's very perceptive and Michaela has a wonderful speech in which she analyzes the painting of my character paintings that you never see yes because I don't think it would need an exceptionally great artist to paint what she describes so brilliantly yes So it's a talkie about art, which, of course, left by itself is silent.

55:06Yes. Yeah. Are you an arts appreciator? I appreciate it, yes. I thought you were going to say, was I an artist? Well, that too. You're not an artist. No. No. Which makes me admire other people. Yeah. But it's all the more. Yeah. Am I right in thinking you bought an Anthony Gormley at one point? Well, if we weren't here and were to go to the back of the pub and look out the window, we'd see an Anthony Gormley. In the Thames. Buried in the Thames on a tall pillar. Yes, yes. Yeah, that's pretty special. It is. Yeah. It is. And you can see it for free if you come to the pub. That's a pretty good advertisement for the Graves.

55:54Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And Julian, this is a character who, you know, he's taking stock towards the end of his life. You know, he's looking back on his work. Is that something that you do? Do you look back on your past work or do you always move on? I don't know if I look back, but I remember quite a lot. And I'm going to treat myself in the next few weeks. I'm going to go up north and I'm going to visit a boy well in his 80s now that I was at school with oh wow another boy I was at school with who I acted with a hundred year old friend who lives in the Lake District and the boy I've not seen since 1951 when we left we're going for Bolton.

56:51Wow. And he was a next door neighbor. So I'm, that's deliberately, I want to go and see them all. Yeah. See how they're getting on. And I do like remembering. Yeah. Because memory isn't just facts that happen, it's mood. Yeah, it's very powerful and sort of sensory, isn't it, memory? Yeah. Yeah. Oh, that's so wonderful. or you're meeting your childhood friends. I am. Yeah. I am. How long has it been since you've seen them then, since decades? Well, I haven't seen Dudley Gore since 1951. How many years ago is that? That's coming up on 70, maybe. And the rest, yeah. Yeah, we're lucky that we're both still available.

57:41Yeah. That's incredible. And I know at some point this year, maybe not too long to go. You're going back into Gandalf's robes, right? Well, I have to get back into Magneto's first. Okay. Some reshoots to do that on the Avengers movie. Then I'm going back to Middle-earth, yes. Yes. Not just the robe, not just the hat. It's the wig, the eyebrows, the nose, the moustache, the beard. how do you feel about doing that again this is the the third time I guess you've you've done it well I love I love Gandhi Gandalf yeah Gandalf the Grey and he is beloved by a lot of people and so I wanted to look after him on their behalf yeah as much as my own yeah yeah I mean the Lord of the Rings films that there's like a lot of people but I watch them every year with my friends.

58:47I know so many people do. Yeah. And I'm lucky to have been in films that mean so much to so many people. Yeah. But then I have to remember, I was also in Cats, a film reviled by millions of people who never saw it. I guess it swings and roundabouts, isn't it? You could say. I mean, it has its fans. But when was the last time you saw Lord of the Rings? Is that something you realized? A long time ago. And I'm looking forward to it. I think it's this Saturday. I'm going to go and see The Fellowship of the Ring, the first film. Oh, right. In the Albert Hall. Oh, fantastic. With the music played live by an orchestra.

59:38Yes. And a choir. I've actually been to one of those concerts before. Yeah, and it's wonderful. Yeah. Howard Shaw's score is just incredible. Absolutely. And I'm going to introduce the film. Oh, fantastic. What a treat for them. Yeah. A treat? Oh, a treat for me. Yeah. Well, I mean, we always look forward to seeing you, whether in Gandalf's cloak or not, Sir Ian. Thank you very much. Yeah, it's a real pleasure to talk to you. Thank you so much. Nice to see you.

1:00:02Chris Hewitt:All right, that was Ian McKellen talking to John Nugent about the Christophers. And now let's start the review section of the show, shall we? Talking about the movies you can see this week in the multiplexes and indeed on your silver plexus with The Christophers, which is Steven Soderbergh's latest movie, Hell's Bells. He's on a bit of an interesting streak, isn't he? This is another London-set movie for... His retirement going well, as ever. Yeah, two films in a year. Yeah, this is, it's actually filmed partly around the corner from the Empire offices. Is it? Is it? Yeah, it's just down, you know the street where you get your sandwiches?

1:00:34Yes. And then if you go along there and turn down left, that's the square where his house is. No way! Anyway, that's beside the point.

1:00:41Chris Hewitt:Sandwich Street. Yes! Wow. That's what it's called. I love it. Okay, so this is, as you kind of said up before the interview, the story of a very famous artist called Julian Sklar. He's kind of Damien Hirst meets Simon Cowell because he started his career as a very famous artist and then ended up on a show called Art Fight, basically telling other people that their work was bad. Oh, Simon Cowell. I thought you meant Simon Cowell and I was like, what? The guy from Four Weddings and the Funeral? Well, he's also quite theatrical, so kind of, yeah. Yes, indeed. But he is, you know, an older man. He's played by, obviously, Suryan Suryan.

1:01:19Suryan Suryan Suryan. And his two awful, venal, horrible, gross-out children, who are played by Jessica Gunning from Baby Reindeer, and James Corden from Being James Corden, have come up with a scheme, because they're not on good terms with their dad, but they do want his money when he dies. and the fact that he owns two houses in central London is not enough for them. They also want the money from some of his paintings because he did two very famous sets of paintings called The Christophers at the height of his powers.

1:01:53Chris Hewitt:Yes. And there was a third set of Christophers that he started but did not finish. They are still in his attic, incomplete. And so the kids come up with a scheme. They will hire Michaela Cole's Laurie Butler, and she will go in and basically steal the unfinished canvases, finish them, and then they will be miraculously found when her father dies. Because she's an incredibly talented artist. Because she's an incredibly talented artist. And this will be, you know, their retirement plan, basically. This is their ticket to wealth and riches. So that is the sort of setup. Now, Laurie herself is not entirely convinced of this scheme, but is also, you know, not well off and a bit desperate for money.

1:02:34And so kind of goes along with it to sort of see what's up. And then it's a question of how is she going to do this and how is it going to work out and what is going to happen here? And I don't want to get into the twists and turns that this film takes because I think that is one of the delights of watching it. This is from a script by Ed Solomon of Bill and Ted and Men in Black fame. He's, of course, worked with Soderbergh before in, what was it, 2021 on No Sudden Move. And this, I think, is just a fantastic script. So Sklar is, he's a dickhead. He's incredibly theatrical. He is self-pitying.

1:03:13He is self-aggrandizing. He's very nearly unbearable at times, but always entertaining. Really, really smart. Really funny. And then you've got Laurie, who is incredibly kind of closed off and wary, but she also has kind of fury in her that occasionally kind of peeps out. And they just make such a fascinating pair of people to watch. And this sort of power play between them and the sort of relationship between them that develops, I find absolutely fascinating. And I didn't know from one scene to the next which way it was going to go and how they were going to react to each other. And I loved that.

1:03:47And I think just the contrast between Michaela Cole and Ian McKellen in this script is just off the charts brilliant because they're both so smart, so, so smart. But they react in very, very different ways to everything in the film and it just is a delight to watch. So yeah, it kind of starts off as this kind of crime drama and almost becomes a buddy comedy, but not quite, but sort of something more complicated than that. I think they've kind of just called it a black comedy online. It doesn't really do it justice It doesn't does it It's very theatrical It's like a little chamber piece You could totally imagine watching this on stage because it's so dialogue driven and a lot of it is just the two of them having this sort of intellectual and emotional tug of war and this sort of emotional drift between the two of them Michaela Cole is extraordinary and one of the things she does which I find almost mystifying is she has this incredibly expressive expressionless thing going on where she her face like nothing moves but conveys so much emotion the way she'll just give him these flat stares just loaded with meaning and she's so she uses stillness and quiet all the way through this I love her character because she's kind of spiky and flinty but she has absolutely no time for any of his shit and it's not like like she holds him weirdly on the one hand with a degree of awe with also a bucket of contempt and kind of reflects his self-loathing back at him and there's some wonderful exchanges and the emotional kind of topography of the relationship that they, you know, the journey, the arc between those characters to go through the film is wonderful.

1:05:19Like, it's so affecting. And obviously, as you said, not to get into the plot, but there's a scene between the two of them towards the end, which is incredibly moving and really powerful, beautifully written. But for me, this whole film rests on these two powerhouse performances, McKellen, Cole. And then, of course, you have Gunning and Corden turning up to be kind of amusing every now and then. But it's a really lovely surprise. And I think it's interesting, you know, make a joke about Steven Soderbergh threatening to retire every five minutes and then making more films than anyone else on earth.

1:05:46But at one point he did say he wanted to retire to focus on painting and you can't help but feel that there's an element of that passion which has really kind of, you know, fueled this film. Yeah. Yeah, no, I really love this as well. I think it's a really lovely two-hander between Michaela Cole and Ian McKellen. But also I just think it's so, for a scene, for a film that so much of it is just kind of set in like a London house essentially. Around the corner. Sandwich Road. Around the corner to us. I just think it's incredibly directed. so much of the storytelling is done through the camera work and there's a lot of handheld camera work in this that is just really lovely and isn't afraid to linger on things isn't afraid to just drift through McCullen's house and I think it just all together is the kind of film we don't see much of anymore, which is like a really small character piece, it has like notes of some of Linklater's stuff in it at points, but I just came out feeling quite, just finding the whole thing really delightful It's a great sort of tribute to human creativity and and even creativity by very imperfect people as well.

1:06:47And I just think it's incredible. I think people should absolutely go see it.

1:06:51Chris Hewitt:It's really, really good. Yeah. I love that Ed Solomon is doing this because this is not the sort of thing you'd imagine Ed Solomon would write. And it's just terrific. You can see why they get Michaela Cullen and Ian McKellen. When we first meet Julian Sklar, he just talks 10 to the dozen and she doesn't get a word in edgewise. And it felt like being in a room with you, Jimbo. it was amazing except with less talk of Thanos yeah it's coming out in May I don't know how well this is going to do at the box office I'm going to guess not very which is a shame you're probably right but it is a shame but I'm hoping that it might stick around in terms of the awards conversation later in the year because these are performances in the screenplay that should be rewarded I think well maybe not rewarded but certainly recognised and we gave it four we gave it four four stars then Four stars then for the Christophers.

1:07:42Chris Hewitt:Next up, another Christopher James, Christopher Dyer, talking about the latest kill list from Ben Wheatley, in which a lot of people get killed and then are put on a list of names at the end of the movie. So that's how that works. And it is normal, and this is another of Bob Odenkirk's Jerry Action movies, but better than Nobody 2. Yes, better than Nobody 2. Yes, this is Ben Wheatley, and it is written by Derek Kolstad, who of course brought us John Wick, And the Nobody Films. And the Nobody Films, based on a story by Bob Odenkirk and Derek Colston. They worked together on this. And this is, it's not quite the one-man army, nobody vibe that people might be expecting.

1:08:22He plays Ulysses. He is what you call an interim sheriff. They have lost, a small town of Normal in Minnesota, has lost their sheriff. And he is essentially the substitute sheriff, parachuted in to maintain law and order until they can elect a replacement. And he is kind of of the zero fucks given law enforcement variety, whereby he just kind of doesn't want to upset anyone, doesn't want to ruffle any feathers, doesn't even want to give out parking tickets, just trying to keep the seat warm for the next guy and kind of keep his head down. Unfortunately, there is a prologue to this film which involves the Yakuza, and I don't think it's a huge spoiler to say they become, shall we say, integral to the ongoing plot without giving away any spoilers.

1:09:00There is a bank robbery at one point, and from then on, it all kicks off and goes downhill for him. And instead of keeping people's seat warm and getting cats down from trees, he basically is involved in a running firefight with basically half the town. This is a very black comedy. You will not be shocked to hear. It has, I guess, some of Free Fire's DNA in there. But ultimately, it's just carnage. It's not carnage in the John Wick way where it's kind of, you know, ballatic, elaborate, choreographed action. It's very funny, very dark humour, very bloody, very visceral. And he's not supposed to be like Schwarzenegger or John Wick.

1:09:35He's a guy, yes, he can use a gun, he's trained. but ultimately he just gives no fucks and he goes down there whether it's chucking out dynamite, he tenderizing a guy with a tenderizer. I mean, it's a lot of fun. You'll wince and all, oh shit, I can't believe they did that. But it's a blast. I had a really good time with this. It's not the plottyest film in the world. It doesn't need to be. I think the characters have a hint of the kind of like almost Fargo-ish Minnesota vibe. They're a little quirky, a little bit fun. If you thought that the last act of Hot Fuzz would work better if it were transplanted to Fargo.

1:10:10Right. That's basically what this is. That's basically what this is. Yeah, exactly that. But yeah, I had a ton of fun with it. It made me giggle and it made me wince in equal measure. Yeah. It's under 90 minutes. It's funny. It's fast. It's bloody. It's really, really entertaining. It also has, we haven't even mentioned, Henry the Fonz Winkler as the town mayor. It does, yeah. And it takes its own time about setting up exactly what's going to happen. And like, you know, I was worried, especially when I heard the running time, that it was all going to be a running fight. But they take their time.

1:10:44They set up a sense of place. And I think that's one of Ben Wheatley's real strengths here and something that he really brings to it. And yeah, I just had a blast. I really enjoyed it.

1:10:53Chris Hewitt:Yeah. Perhaps more of a sense of Ben Wheatley, the director, and his quite twisted sense of humor than in his last American movie, which was The Meg 2, even though I had a blast with that film. There's a lot to admire about this. So much better than Nobody 2. I spoke to Bob Odenkirk, by the way, for the interviews, which should be up around the same time as this. So go and have a listen to that. It's a ton of fun. Normal, we gave us four stars. However, if you were going to watch something this week in which a unstoppable killing machine wipes out a whole bunch of people, should you watch Normal, which will be in cinemas this weekend and be on Sky Cinema in a couple months' time?

1:11:36Chris Hewitt:or should you watch The Punisher One Last Kill? Well, you could watch both and still have change within three hours. That's true, actually. I think this is a perfect double bill. It's a why-choose moment. Exactly that. The latest Marvel one-shot. Yeah, we literally just recorded a spoiler special for this, so if you subscribe to Spoiler Special, you should definitely tune in and listen to that. But this is a lot of fun. This is directed by Rinaldo Marcus Green, who directed Frank Castle, or as he is otherwise known, John Bernthal in We Own This City. and it sees Frank involved in a, shall we say, a raid-type operation when a bunch of killers descend upon where he is currently living and he is forced to murderize all of them over the course of around, what, 51 minutes, I would say?

1:12:18Not leaving that. Not leaving that. Including credits, less than 50 minutes. It is bloody on a level, I think it's safe to say, the MCU has never even dreamed, let alone put on screen before. It's quite extraordinary at times. There's a whole thing with a big biro that you won't forget in a hurry. But it's great. He's great in that character. He's at his darkest, I would say. He's at his lowest ebb. He's slightly suicidal. He's done what he set out to do. He has avenged the death of his family. He's taken out the Nucci crime family. Not the Nucky, no. Not the Nucky crime family. Joke for the spoiler special.

1:12:54And here we see what happens, unfortunately, when you upset members of organized crime because they all come for him. But he is the punisher. And spoiler, he does okay. But like I say, again, it's another running firefight for pretty much the duration of the show, film, one shot, single one of dramatic event, whatever you want to call it. But it's really, really good stuff. He has a magnificent beard. Helen, I think you can attest to this. Yes, I do. I think it's wonderful. Yeah, it's kind of, again, it sort of takes its time. It sets things up a little bit at the beginning. It puts him in a very dark place.

1:13:28Very dark. Again, darker than we've ever seen in the MCU. you know, really, really messed up in the head. And then through the medium of intensive therapy, sorry, no, killing a bunch of dudes. Extreme violence, yeah. He finds his way back to some kind of equilibrium. Ooh, equilibrium. Great film. Sorry. There kind of is gun cancer here, honestly. It has an element of equilibrium to it, doesn't it? Not without incidents. I thought the action scenes in this were absolutely terrific. The stunt work is really, really impressive. Lots and lots and lots of it done, you know, physically. and I had a really good time.

1:14:03If anything, I would have liked it to be an hour and a half because I think you could have done more with just a little bit more running time. Could have been a film, 100%. But it's great to see that character and it's great for it to segue so wonderfully tonally from this into Spider-Man Brand New Day, which I'm sure is going to begin in exactly the same way with him brutalizing someone with a writing implement.

1:14:24Chris Hewitt:Maybe smacking Spider-Man around the chops with a typewriter. Absolutely. Oh boy. Yeah, that could be fun. That could be fun. Maybe drowning Tintin in a puddle. No. No? Bad. Yeah, not for the faint of heart, but really, really good stuff. Yeah, four stars in for The Punisher, One Last Kill, which is on Disney+. So if you're going to double bail out with normal, you'll have to watch one at your home, then put some clothes on, and then go to see normal. So there you go. Anyway, the last film this week... But not the least. ...is a film that I honestly, because I keep my ear close to the ground, I've been on holiday, I didn't really know anything about this film until I saw a poster of it on the London Underground the other week.

1:15:03Chris Hewitt:I was like, oh, that looks interesting. Yeah, it's nice of them to bring that movie out with one week's notice. And then I heard from Harry. That is amazing. I heard from Helen. That is amazing. I heard from Becky Dark. That is amazing. Mike Munser. That is amazing. The film in question is Curry Barker's obsession. and you guys I think it's fair to say Harry are obsessed why yes so yeah this is Obsession coming to us from Curry Barker who is one of the many horror filmmakers who have made their start on YouTube if you haven't seen Milk and Cereal yes it's on YouTube and it is deeply unsettling it's real good really great yeah so he's now back with a full feature and this film follows a young man called Bear and pretty much Bear is it's fair to say he's got a little bit of incel about him he's a little bit of a he's shy yeah He's just shy.

1:15:57He's an awkward young man. He's kind of think Paul Meskel's weedy American cousin. That's really good. That's very specific. It's an actor called Michael Johnston, but that's basically what he looks like. Yeah, I think that's bang on. And yeah, pretty much he's down bad for his co-worker and childhood friend Nikki, played by Indy Navaretti. And he just doesn't really know how to ask her out. And he's trying, he's trying. It's almost quite sad to watch. and he goes to a store, he thinks, oh, I'm going to buy her a gift. I'm going to confess my love to her. And he finds something called a one-wish willow.

1:16:33And the concept of a one-wish willow is you get one wish and you snap it in half and you make the wish. And essentially, upon failing once again to confess his feelings to Nicky, as she leaves the car, he gets the one-wish willow and goes, I wish Nicky loved me more than anyone in the world, and snaps it. And from then on, the film takes one hell of a turn and she really does love him more than anyone else in the world but where the film goes and what the film does with what is kind of a concept we've seen before is really wild and it's how do I describe it

1:17:06Chris Hewitt:is this like a supernaturally tinged is it lots of jump scares in this or is this a very unsettling is it unsettling is it a comedy horror what's all of them yes it's all of the above all of these yes I think it's incredibly funny at points because what the film does so well and you can just feel Curry Barker's hands all over it is they make the character of Nikki so unsettling she loves she loves Bess so much that she flips on a dime he can say something in a scene and she will just flip completely like Ben like Ben like Ben Travis of the Empire team and what by doing that even in the scenes where she's not in them you just have this sense of anxiety through the whole film so what the film does really well is it frames a lot of shots really wide so when people are having conversations you're kind of like looking behind them within shots so even the scenes that Nikki is not in there's just this kind of sense of foreboding the whole time and it's so massively done because it's I can't remember the last time I watched a horror film where the whole film I felt anxious there's like no it does not let up in the whole of its two hours I feel like from a little bit under that but yeah I think it's an incredible performance as well from Indy Navarette because she like the interesting thing about this is of course you've got this gorgeous heroine who's also the monster of the movie right and so you have to figure out a way to make her incredibly scary and unsettling while dealing with the fact that she's beautiful you know and and so a lot of the time she's framed lit from behind and she's just this incredibly still poised silhouette and that's quite unsettling in itself sometimes you can just see the glint of her eyes and that's kind of unsettling and it just he finds ways to make her weird looking even though she objectively isn't and then she in her performance I think is brilliant she will go from not moving a muscle or you know maintaining this very obviously fake smile way past the point where you should be moving your face already oh my god please move your face and and then she will suddenly twitch in a different direction and she will suddenly scurry across the room in a very unnatural very inhuman looking way but i think the humor or the horror of this film is more kind of existential than that because it really does get into a lot of issues about relationships this gets into red every red flag pretty much is somewhere in this movie right this is like what does a codependent relationship look like what does manipulation look like what does you know threatening self-harm to get your loved one to do something that you want them to do you know every single unhealthy behavior that you could possibly indulge in with a romantic partner is pretty much in this movie and i think they honestly if it weren't for the incredible levels of violence this should be required viewing for teenagers in schools because i think it is an 18 it's and it earns the 18 i did like i'm not going to mess around this is a violent violent movie but it's almost a helpful thing to kind of see this laid out for yourself as a sort of what not to do with someone you have a crush on guys especially with some of the behaviors that like bear kind of exhibits in the film you're kind of like dude why are you why are you putting up with this kind of behavior that is awful and really manipulative so there is like kind of the two layers to it yeah it is gnarly as hell horrific but also it isn't afraid to explore like toxic relationships and the damages they can do to a person and i think for a for like a debut feature or a first feature film.

1:20:40I just think it's so, so confident. It's up there with like the Philippus for me in terms of just like coming out the gate swinging with a first feature. Absolutely. I mean, you know, because of Curry Barker's background in sketch comedy, he's been being compared to like Zach Craig and Jordan Peele, who came up in a similar way. He's fans of both, which probably hasn't hurt. His kind of comedy partner, Cooper Tomlinson, who is the other star of Milk and Cereal. And Cereal, by the way, is spelled with an S, not a C in that film title if you're looking it up he plays a supporting role here along with Megan Lawless as the other member of their friend group but I just feel like this does feel like another great horror talent kind of emerging and I think we really are in a golden age of horror I think at this point the 2020s is knocking the 70s and the 80s off the perch

1:21:34Chris Hewitt:I'm not kidding I'm not kidding I think if you look at horror in the last five years I think we are in an absolute golden age not a silver age it's incredible I absolutely agree also back the fuck up not doing it also I'm going to put it out there I feel like this probably has one of the most effective scares in it that I've seen in years in horror films oh my god I think I know which one you mean I shat myself it is actually that's an overshare but okay Harry I in the screening I was in it got everyone in the room and I was there multiple shittings everyone shat wow it was horrible I'm glad I didn't go to that screening.

1:22:06Okay, I'm sorry. I just want to push back on this because I don't want to put people off seeing this in the cinema because I saw this in a crowded cinema and it was an incredible cinema experience. There were some young...

1:22:18Chris Hewitt:Not fully people had to clean up after you. No, nothing that people had to clean up after. There were young men down at the front of the screen who were just sitting there going, brah, brah, brah, at a couple of moments. And it added so much to what was going on on screen. Did they point out other items and clothing she was wearing? No, brah. as in young man please do not do what you're doing that's because there's something recognisable in it though for all the insane behaviours there is something especially young people in the dating world I feel like you'll recognise some of this and you're like how far will someone tolerate certain behaviours it's bonkers it's a good time at the cinema wow it's the best horror film of the year so far yeah it is high praise indeed then for Obsession naturally we've given it four honestly I think everything is four this week I would have thought about a five, but it is a really good week at the movies.

1:23:07Chris Hewitt:Well, Mike Munster texted me this morning going, this is film of the year. Wow. I need to see this. I hope you guys aren't bigging us up too much because, I mean, better than the high point of 70s horror, I don't know about that. I'm not saying this one on its own, but horror right now, yeah. I think if you are a horror hound, you're eating well. I think people are going to lose their minds for this when they see it. People already are, but it's such a good time in the movie. Their minds or their bowels? Their minds. In my case, both. Oh, God. I will say, I do think that this is, it's underserved by its very generic title and poster.

1:23:43Yeah. It is more original than either of those. The poster's terrible. The poster's so bad. Genuinely, it's such a shame when you have a generic title and a shit poster, because one of the reasons I didn't go to the screening, I was like, yeah. It just, it had the whiff of something. You think you know what it is. You think it's like going to scrape a three stars, possibly a two, I don't need to see this. And actually, you could be wrong.

1:24:00Chris Hewitt:I'm going to go and try and see it this week. I'm going to go pre-shitted. so I'll be fine good just liberally smeared in poo so that'll what? I've brought the tone down so much so much Harry please don't be put off by Harry go see this in cinemas if you can handle the gory yeah just don't sit behind him yes don't sit down as a rule any screening yes do they have downwinded screenings? I don't think so I don't think they do yeah anyway four stars down for Obsession but these guys are very firmly in the five camp I think it is fair to say that's exciting very exciting indeed that is definitely on my must-see list along with the sheep detectives.

1:24:36Chris Hewitt:Oh, boy. Which I haven't seen yet. Anyway, I think on that note, that is it for this week's Empire Podcast. We are done. Four stars all across the board. Join us next week for more film-related fun when we'll be joined by... Well, it is the dawn of the Mandalorian and Grogu. So naturally, we're joined by someone who plays neither of those characters. But, she is the alien queen. She is Sigourney Weaver who stars in that film as Colonel Ward. Very interesting indeed. Sigourney Weaver on the Ember Podcast yet again. What a time to be alive. But until then, until we meet again, until that auspicious occasion, it is goodbye from my three colleagues of such lethal cunning.

1:25:21Chris Hewitt:Four stars to Christopher O 'Hara. Sorry, Helen O 'Hara. Goodbye. Bye-bye. Goodbye to you. Goodbye to Christopher Steiner. Harry Steiner. Goodbye. Goes to the obsession. It's his new obsession. Goodbye. to James Christopher Christopher Dyer goodbye Chris goodbye goodbye to you and it is goodbye from me I am off to take Tintin into space no to kill him yes no but not to kill him like he's supposed to come back no in space no one can hear Tintin scream yes because I'm taking him all the way Helen all the way to LV426 no I'm afraid it's time for Tintin to become the alien king thanks for listening see you next time bye bye

1:26:0310 Tenet