Vendrak The Vertical, Scáthach, And The Kamino Kid (ft. guests Benny Safdie, Malcolm McDowell, Harris Dickinson)

6:17Malcolm McDowell:The virus attacks the ears first.

6:21Chris Hewitt:Anyway, there you go. And by the way, guys, I'm fine. Thanks for asking. You seem fine. It's good. Yeah. It's like my mum used to say when I was growing up. If you're well enough to do that, you're well enough to go to school. If you're well enough to play a video game, you're well enough to go to school. And they're not the same thing, Mum. They're not the same thing. They don't require the same amounts of energy or focus. If you're well enough to talk in a little podcast, you're well enough to come at the office. Yeah, I'm happy to come at the office and infect everybody. Yeah, it'll be fine.

6:49Chris Hewitt:In fact, we've had to... Well, not abandon, because we're still doing it, right? But tonight is the launch of the very first Empire Dungeons & Dragons session. It's true. And I'm now having to dial in virtually to that because

7:03Malcolm McDowell:Via a magic mirror A magical portal

7:07Chris Hewitt:Will take me into this D &D session because I am sick My character, Fendrak the Vertical, who is an elf magician? I don't know any of this shit Yes, a high elf wizard A high elf wizard is, he's not sick, but Chris Hewitt is sick So yeah, maybe we'll keep you updated on how that goes next week It should be interesting. I don't know what I'm talking about.

7:32Malcolm McDowell:No.

7:33Chris Hewitt:Which is, in fairness, my default setting at the best of times. But anyway, hey-ho, should we move on?

7:38Malcolm McDowell:Let's.

7:39Chris Hewitt:Let's do it. Let's have a question. So this week I've asked for questions from Twitter and from Blue Sky. And I think Blue Sky has won the day with, when I say Blue Sky, I mean this one person from Blue Sky has won the day with this question. It is James Anstey. Seems like a name that I've said before in the question section. A Robert Redford inspired question, if it's not too bleak, best last movies? Because A, The Old Man and the Gun is surely up there and B, it allows me to share my favourite fact that Omar Sharif's last movie was called Rock the Kasbah, which means that the clash was wrong and Sharif did like it.

8:23Malcolm McDowell:Okay. Oh dear.

8:28Chris Hewitt:alright so I think this is an interesting one to talk about best last movies by actors and actresses not by directors or producers or writers and obviously this is because of the sad passing a couple weeks ago of Robert Redford which I didn't talk about in the podcast but amazing amazing actor and director and he meant a great deal to me yeah I think this is a nice little jumping off point because last movies are really, really interesting. Some are great. Some are not so great. Should we stipulate? Should we make some stipulations? Should we make some criteria before we crack on with this? So I reckon we should, where we can, restrict this to people who died at a ripe old age and of natural causes.

9:14Malcolm McDowell:Okay.

9:15Chris Hewitt:And I'm not counting people who have retired or not made a movie in a while because you never know what might happen. they might be lured back into the game by fin diesel with the last witch hunter too so no nicholson no eastwood no baity no kane no defile people like that that's that's what i'm saying also no tv movies and also people who've been cancelled no so robert redford should we take robert redford first of all okay because as the questioner said the old man in the gun david lowry's the old man in the gun is a fantastic film one of robert redford's best films one of his most natural and most charming performances it is a fantastic last movie it's just one small problem not his last movie it's not his last movie yeah it was for the film cineasts

10:04Malcolm McDowell:i noticed on uh on blue sky it was very much oh what a what a way to go out i'm like um there

10:09Chris Hewitt:was another film that he made hello did anyone see it it was quite big now of course what is that film helen that film is avengers endgame it is avengers endgame and of course we're being a

10:21Malcolm McDowell:little bit we are i mean it was obviously his you know his last lead role was the old man the gun which feels like a right and a proper send-off and it feels like a great late career role and people are right to celebrate it it should be celebrated people should go see it but uh but yeah i mean technically by the rules of this game it ain't that technically yes uh and

10:44Chris Hewitt:of course robert redford spent what less than a couple of hours instead of avengers endgame

10:50John Nugent:Hey, I think he was there every day for every set up because he's a fan.

10:56Malcolm McDowell:He's a professional.

10:58John Nugent:A man is a professional. Yeah.

11:00Chris Hewitt:Yes, he very much was. But I don't even know if he met Robert Downey Jr. that day. So basically, he's in that movie. He's back as Alexander Pierce, the character he played in Captain America, the Winter Soldier, for a bit of timey-wimey stuff where he shows up in Avengers Tower, Stark Tower, Avengers Tower, whatever you want to call it. in Endgame and he has a scene with Robert Downey Jr. I'm pretty sure they had a scene together. Tom Hiddleston's in it as well as Loki. I don't know whether he and Tom Hiddleston met. I must ask him one of these days. It's a little cheeky to call it his last movie, but it is technically his last movie.

11:35Chris Hewitt:So that's a good one. You know, either way, I think that's good, right? So you either have this beautiful swan song movie that I think was intended as his farewell to lead acting, The Old Man and the Gun if you haven't seen it it's terrific seek it out or you have Avengers Endgame which was at the time the biggest movie of all time that's not a bad way to go out either so that's a good one

12:00Malcolm McDowell:anyone else

12:01Chris Hewitt:I've made a long list I've got one anyway

12:03Malcolm McDowell:to start with Oliver Reed

12:07Chris Hewitt:Gladiator

12:08Malcolm McDowell:Gladiator was his last movie and that's a that's going out on a high it is so that's a pretty solid entry I think

12:16Chris Hewitt:obviously Oliver Reed died during production of Gladiator. And they had to do some jiggery-pokery to work around his loss and that. And then obviously that brings up people like Brandon Lee. It brings up people like Heath Ledger on The Dark Knight.

12:33Malcolm McDowell:Although technically Imaginarium of Dr. Parnassus.

12:36Chris Hewitt:Precisely, precisely. But yeah, Oliver Reed's a really good one. That's a solid one. Yeah, he was terrific, Oliver Reed. Incredible.

12:45Malcolm McDowell:And great in that film.

12:46Chris Hewitt:Very good in that film as well. any others Jimbo do you have anything well I would put out

12:53John Nugent:The Last Jedi as Carrie Fisher's final performance technically she is in apparently a fan film called The Rise of Skywalker but it was it's old footage that was recycled for that film so I'm not counting it so The Last Jedi really is her last performance

13:05Malcolm McDowell:I actually agree with that

13:07John Nugent:even if you don't completely excise that from canon it's still not technically I think her last performance so yes The Last Jedi I would say that's a solid call And it's a great film and it's a great Star Wars film, despite what the haters say. And she's fabulous in it. Even though, you know, like The Rise of Skywalker was supposed to be her film, you know, and that would have been her film had she lived. Yeah. Yeah. The Last Generary.

13:32Chris Hewitt:That's a very good one.

13:33Malcolm McDowell:What have you got, Chris?

13:34Chris Hewitt:Oh man, I've got so many. I've got so many. I've got loads just in case you, you know, you were suggesting someone on Enneka go, oh, well this person, I know exactly what their last film is. Also, I think there can be, I was trying to make a distinction between live action performances and voice performances.

13:47Malcolm McDowell:Are you saying Paul Newman?

13:49Chris Hewitt:I'm saying Paul Newman because Paul Newman's last movie is technically Cars.

13:54Malcolm McDowell:Yeah.

13:55Chris Hewitt:Right? Let's never say that out loud again. Again, there's like, I think there's a TV movie in there. There's maybe an appearance in like a documentary or something like that afterwards after he retired from acting. But it is Cars as Doc, I want to say Doc, in that movie. But his last live action movie is Road to Perdition. which was in 2002. This is the life we chose, the life we lead. Precisely. That's a great, great last movie. If you talk about the live action animation split as well, Orson Welles' last live action movie is a, frankly, piece of shit called Someone to Love. And, you know, if you're Orson Welles, the director of one of the greatest movies of all time, Touch of Evil, you don't want that to be your last movie.

14:47Chris Hewitt:You don't want your last movie to be a piece of shit, right? You want your last movie to be Transformers the movie. Yeah, you do. Where he foist the... Is that what he wanted? Wasn't it Omnicron? Unicron. Unicron, that's it. No, Omnicron I think is what I've got. I'm not entirely sure. But yes, he foist Unicron in Transformers the movie, but he shot someone to love before he recorded his voice for Transformers the movie. But that's a one-two punch that really is that's a cracker yeah i mean you always do want to go out on a high and i think

15:17John Nugent:it is it is testament to the illustrious career of philip seymour hoffman that his last film i believe was the hunger games mocking jay part two which in many ways is regrettable that's a shame yeah he did better films around that time he was good though i mean he was good now he's good in

15:34Chris Hewitt:those movies um i don't remember much about those movies but i do remember him i've got a solid

15:38Malcolm McDowell:a contender.

15:39Chris Hewitt:Okay.

15:39Malcolm McDowell:On Golden Pond was the last movie for Henry Fonda and he won the Oscar for it.

15:45Chris Hewitt:Oh.

15:46Malcolm McDowell:Boom.

15:47Chris Hewitt:That's pretty good. That's a mic drop and a half. Pretty good. That's a good one. Was he there to pick up his Oscar or was that posthumous as well?

15:55Malcolm McDowell:I don't remember.

15:56Chris Hewitt:As indeed. Was Peter Finch's last movie Network? Because I know he won for Network. That was definitely a posthumous win. It was very posthumous, yeah. Whether or not it was his last one, but that's a good one on Golden Pond. if Network was indeed Peter Finch's that's one I did not look up beforehand then that's also

16:12Malcolm McDowell:that's an incredible way to go Burt Lancaster's last film was Field of Dreams pretty solid

16:18Chris Hewitt:that's a solid one I have so many here, name someone famous, I'm pretty much sure I've got their last movie

16:26Malcolm McDowell:Steve McQueen

16:27Chris Hewitt:don't have it but I know what it is, it's The Hunter it's The Hunter from 1980 that's fine, it's okay it's a decent one name someone else who I've got written down

16:38Malcolm McDowell:Did you look up Catherine Hepburn?

16:40Chris Hewitt:I did look up Catherine Hepburn Oh what was hers? Love Affair from 1994

16:44Malcolm McDowell:Oh okay

16:45Chris Hewitt:Yeah I know Right That's the thing Sometimes last movies are a bit underwhelming Whoa

16:50Malcolm McDowell:Okay Somebody who Okay I don't know if she fits the rules So she retired early Uh huh But then she did eventually die without making another movie

16:59Chris Hewitt:Okay

16:59Malcolm McDowell:But her death was due to a car accident not natural causes Oh okay

17:04Chris Hewitt:So I don't know

17:04Malcolm McDowell:where we stand on that But High Society and Grace Kelly.

17:07Chris Hewitt:That's a solid last movie. That's for sure. Gene Hackman's last movie was Welcome to Mooseport. Yeah. Something I lamented in my Gene Hackman profile I wrote years and years ago and now I cringe when I look at those opening paragraphs because I'm quite rude about Ray Romano and he's a great guy and a great actor and I didn't mean to be dismissive of Ray Romano but it's not that great a film when you look at it. Sean Connery's last movie was The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen.

17:31Malcolm McDowell:And then that pigeon Billy thing.

17:33Chris Hewitt:Or Sir Billy Levette, a risible very very cheap animation let me see Chadwick Boseman again someone we lost very very recently very prematurely Ma Rainey's Black Bottom

17:44Malcolm McDowell:oh yeah

17:45Chris Hewitt:good movie

17:46Malcolm McDowell:okay that's a good that's a contender wow

17:48John Nugent:yeah I'm right in saying so Marlon Brando's last film was the score but he also did that bug film didn't he which wasn't released the animated film you know the one Big Bug Man Big Bug Man I mean it's presumably a working title but which never ultimately came out

18:03Malcolm McDowell:huh

18:03Chris Hewitt:I don't I didn't know that one

18:06Malcolm McDowell:How about Bruce Lee?

18:08Chris Hewitt:Bruce Lee

18:08Malcolm McDowell:Enter the Dragon Game of Death

18:11John Nugent:Well yeah Game of Death was another posthumous release wasn't it where it was kind of cobbled together from footage so Yeah

18:18Chris Hewitt:which is what happened to Peter Sellers when he passed away so he died his last movie wasn't being there because it's one of those things where if being there had been his last movie then one of the last images maybe the last image of Peter Sellers on celluloid would have been his character in that movie walking across water which was just this beautiful, beautiful image. Instead, he made an atrocity, an absolute atrocity called the fiendish plot of Fu Manchu. But after he died, what happened to the Pink Panther franchise, I think is kind of reprehensible. And they took footage that he had shot previously for other Pink Panther movies and repackaged it as basically a clip movie.

18:58Chris Hewitt:The next two Pink Panther movies were based around, one of them was based around the search for Clouseau who had gone missing. And it was just awful.

19:06Malcolm McDowell:This is a reason why we've got to stop them from doing sort of posthumous AI rights for actors. My God. Yes. Nightmare.

19:13Chris Hewitt:I think so.

19:14Malcolm McDowell:Gregory Peck.

19:15Chris Hewitt:Gregory Peck. Oh, hang on. I've got it written down. Yeah, you do. It's a contender.

19:21Malcolm McDowell:Oh, is it? It's Cape Fear.

19:24Chris Hewitt:Yeah, well, I've got other people's money.

19:26Malcolm McDowell:Oh, I had Cape Fear.

19:28Chris Hewitt:See, that's the thing. Romantically, it should be Cape Fear. It should be Cape Fear. but I have other people's money, but it should be Cape Fear. Maggie Smith, her last movie should be Downton Abbey, a new era, not least because her character in that passes away with the iconic line, stop that noise, I can't hear myself die, which is just this beautiful moment, this note on which to go out. But then she made another film called, I've got it written down, The Miracle Club, which came out after Downton Abbey 2. Oh, The Miracle Club is...

20:03Malcolm McDowell:fine. It's fine. It's fine.

20:05Chris Hewitt:You know, like the Great Escaper, Glinda Jackson's last role, and would also have been Michael Caine's last role, but he's coming back for some reason, The Last Witch Hunter 2. Who wouldn't? Yeah, who wouldn't do that? But yeah, what I'm saying is if you want to stretch it a little bit, if you want someone's last film to be a romantic swan song final note, like a Downton Abbey 2 or a Cape Fear for Gregory Peck, then who am I to stand in your way?

20:30Malcolm McDowell:Maybe. Well, I mean, evidently you're the person with a list, but I feel like maybe you should be allowed to appoint your last film and then just work on as long as you like you know like you should be like Robert Redd should be like okay like officially this old man and the gun thing that I'm doing right now this is my quote unquote last film okay and now Marvel if you'll just back the truck with the check into my driveway and we'll get going on Avengers Endgame as well you know I feel like that should be a thing that these people are allowed to do after a lifetime of service to the movies you know you should be allowed to decide for yourself.

21:03Malcolm McDowell:I have, however, got a contender for the winner. Ethel Merman, perhaps not the greatest star, movie star, but a great Broadway star. Final film, Airplane.

21:16Chris Hewitt:Wow. As herself. As herself as a joke.

21:21Malcolm McDowell:Amazing.

21:22Chris Hewitt:In that amazing scene where what's wrong with him? He thinks he's Ethel Merman and he pulls back the curtain, the covers of the bed. It's in the insane asylum and Ethel Merman gets out of her bed and performs a musical number. Start singing. Incredible. It's, all right, yeah. You know what? I'm going with that one. That's a cracker.

21:41John Nugent:I have an alternative. Okay. Yeah. I'm going to say that it is, in fact, Aliens.

21:50Malcolm McDowell:You always think it's Aliens. No matter what the question is, the answer is Aliens for you.

21:56John Nugent:Which was the final film of Tip Tipping. Alien Queen. R.I.P. Alien Queen.

22:02Malcolm McDowell:It was the final film for who?

22:03John Nugent:It was the final film of Tip Tipping, who played Private Crow in Aliens. Died in a helicopter crash.

22:09Malcolm McDowell:How long did you just spend going through the alien castles? I can neither confirm nor deny

22:14John Nugent:that I went through the complete cast list of aliens to see if I could identify someone who had died and then succeeded.

22:20Chris Hewitt:Yes. Well, after that respectful nonsense, R.I.P. to all those people, by the way.

22:27Malcolm McDowell:By the way.

22:30Chris Hewitt:Great work Great work Loved you in Transformers the movie You know Let's move on And have a guest Shall we

22:37Malcolm McDowell:Let's please

22:38Chris Hewitt:Let's do it Who do you want We have three guests this week Benny Safdie Let's have Benny Safdie Shall we Okay so Benny Safdie You know him He is writer He is director He is actor He is producer He is all these things He worked with his brother Josh Safdie For the longest time On movies like Good Time And Uncut Gems But now he is Flying his solo freak flag as the writer, director and producer of this week's The Smashing Machine which is not a Wallace and Gromit prequel despite how it sounds but it's the story of Mark Kerr who was an MMA fighter in the 90s and this documents his rise and possible fall and possible rise again and maybe possible fall again who knows, you have to watch the movie to find out but he is played in this movie by Dwayne The Rock Johnson who is finally shedding the rock part of that even though there's really He really plays into his wrestling persona as well and wrestling background and just his general life story.

23:34Chris Hewitt:And this is a proper performance from Dwayne Johnson in this movie. It is being touted for Oscar consideration, as is Emily Blunt as his girlfriend Dawn. Benny Safdie, of course, not just a director. He is an actor as well. You may have seen him as the bad guy in this summer's Happy Gilmore 2. And we spoke about that. we spoke about directing The Rock and other actors of course and we spoke about how this movie came about when I sat down with him in the London hotel room before the dark times before I had Covid and we had a cracking time here we go, smashing machine, grommet enjoy this is for the Empire Podcast, you can swear if you want to swear oh ok good whatever you want to do, the confines level yeah, let's start off with the motherfucker we'll build up to the secret That's my favorite.

24:24Harris Dickinson:In the George Carlin, the seven words you can't say, he goes, he got the call from the English teacher. And so this is what is the best about it. English teacher calls and says, you can't have fuck and motherfucker in the same thing because they're duplicates. And he's like, oh, I guess you're right. So poof, that motherfucker was gone.

24:40Benny Safdie:It was just fuck.

24:42Harris Dickinson:I was like, wow, what a great pun.

24:45Chris Hewitt:It's amazing. I love that. I think you can probably say about five or six of those seven words on this podcast. Yes. Yes, yeah. There's a couple where I'm like, whoa, still. Not so sure about, but hey-ho. Anyway, welcome to the podcast. Thank you. How are you?

25:00Harris Dickinson:Glad to be here.

25:02Chris Hewitt:No, good to have you here. So you are the writer, director, producer, and editor of The Smashing Machine. Yes. Not cast member on this one? Do you have a brief that I missed?

25:13Harris Dickinson:If you listen closely, I'm the voice of Dwayne's sponsor. Really? Yes. Okay. So I'm on the phone in that scene. It's uncredited. Excellent. Yeah. I wanted to do, it was funny because there was one scene where I almost did it, where I was going to be in it. But I was like, I don't want it to be, because I was like, if you've seen Staying Alive, Stallone directed that movie. There's the scene where he bumps into John Travolta.

25:44Chris Hewitt:Yeah.

25:44Harris Dickinson:And I was like, but everybody knows it's Stallone. And I didn't want to have that, even though I love that movie. I didn't want to have that. And so I was like, I'm not going to do it.

25:54Chris Hewitt:Isn't he wearing an extravagant coat? He is.

25:56Harris Dickinson:And I've heard, I don't know if this is true or not, but I've heard that that's Rocky Balboa. Right. So it's technically that he's bumping into Rocky Balboa on the street.

26:07Chris Hewitt:Okay.

26:07Harris Dickinson:But I've also heard that he was wearing that coat a lot during the shooting of the movie, so it's unclear. But I'd like to think that it is Rocky Balboa. Yes.

26:16Chris Hewitt:I'm trying to figure out who your cameo could have been.

26:19Harris Dickinson:I was going to be the guy. I was going to be the guy on the plane who he asked to put up. Because I knew that that was going to be a very difficult role. Because it's those small roles that have to have a lot of stuff in it. And I had a hard time with that one. Because it was hard to get somebody to do such a small moment and not overdo it. Because I knew that that would be the one thing where I would say, oh, can you do it? And the person would go, like, really? Oh, excuse me? And of course it was really difficult to shoot that scene because I needed them to just do something very specific You know big all would be easy because I would be able to do that very quickly But I didn't want it to be distracting, you know as a director.

26:59Chris Hewitt:Yeah, you spend all this time working with your lead actors Yeah, and their performances then a day player comes in. How do you work with day players?

27:07Harris Dickinson:How do you work with people who are doing things exactly the same, you know on this in particular? I did a very it was new but it wasn't like I've always had a lot of the casting is very important but on this I did for every single person who I was thinking of casting I did a full session with them ranging from 30 minutes to an hour and a half where I would do scenes with them I would rewrite the dialogue try and getting the best performance of them possible and then I would be like at the very end you've got it

27:41Chris Hewitt:you're fired yeah exactly You're hired. The other way.

27:45Harris Dickinson:That's amazing. It was really, it was because I wanted to see, A, it was helping me in the writing because I would help do the scene with the person. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And if I would get, since I was casting real people, I could get them to a place where they were comfortable with the lines about a month and a half before I was able to shoot. So I would do it with them and I'd be like, okay, this person can act because I'd act with them and I'd do the scene and I'd play it. And so I would get them really comfortable with a style of also specifically that I was changing everything all the time.

28:14Harris Dickinson:I would work with them. And so in that sense, that specific scene was very funny because Dwayne was trying to hold in laughing. Because the guy was giving me a really hard time. It was a run for my money. And he just saw me have to pull out every trick, tool, everything I had. And he just sat there just like, this is the greatest. because I was giving that guy just as much as I give anybody else. He thought that was really special. And I got him there. He did it. It's a really hard thing that he does when he says, can you raise the shade? And the guy gives him a look like he's surprised, like, whoa.

28:54Harris Dickinson:And then he's like, I better do what this guy says, but at the same time, I was reading.

29:00Chris Hewitt:There's a moment to look around. Oh, this is a man mountain. Yes, exactly. I'm going to do that. Yes. Yeah, but for that guy for that actor as well. Yes There's also and for any kind of day player or come to somebody comes in for a couple of days on a movie like this You're in a scene with Dwayne. Yeah, do you have they had to get past that is there a layer of um? Shit, I'm in a scene.

29:21Harris Dickinson:Well, that's the thing is that it wasn't like for example another scene that had somebody that was He was a dental supply salesman. Yeah, or the businessman that Dwayne has to talk to about your money.

29:32Chris Hewitt:Yeah That was a scene where the, I think, I like to create an environment on the set where there's no pressure.

29:41Harris Dickinson:So there isn't this idea of, oh my gosh, here we go. Let's action now. Go. Like there's this, there isn't this feeling of I better perform. You know, it's a very laid back environment in the sense that you could do anything. Make mistake. Who cares? You know, that's what I want because I think that'll give the best performance. You know, everything you're doing is in service of eventually getting to where you need to go, even if you make the wrong choices. They're not the wrong choices. They're just not right for this moment. So that's how I look at it. So there was one take with that businessman who was just a real businessman, Japanese businessman.

30:17Harris Dickinson:And to me, it was important because a Japanese businessman is a very specific kind of person. They carry themselves in a very specific way, and they look at the world in a very specific way. So I was like I need that guy, but I need that guy to be able to play himself realistically, which is very hard and so now I cast him we did the scene. It was great And then Matt and Rob who were the first and second first camp second camera second AC Said oh we didn't get it in focus because they're on long lenses of course Yeah, like we need to do it again. I'm like totally okay. I said all right Got to do it again.

30:52Harris Dickinson:It was a camera thing. Let's do it one more time. We'll get it great and that take was sublime because at that point everybody was so used to it and Dwayne was riffing with this guy they're improvising and coming up with this incredible thing where he's like at the end where the guy I said to him just talk to you I said talk to your friends in Japanese and basically like really talk badly about him in front of him and he just like really goes into down on this guy and Dwayne is watching it happen it was just amazing you know because I think once you break it down it's it's like I say sometimes it's like unlocking a safe you're listening for the clicks and when you finally get it okay great and then it's just open and you have access to all of the great stuff inside you know yeah but the dental supply salesman he was somebody who had a hard time laughing like doing that laughing incredulously he could do everything else perfect and I couldn't get it I was spending 45 minutes at this point with him and I was just like well what if somebody came into your store and asked for three implants and he goes three implants and I go there it is and so then he got it um but there was a moment with uh Ryan which was amazing it was the scene with Emily and Ryan outside of the locker room yeah And Emily just is incredible in the movie, but she comes out firing on all cylinders every single time.

32:22Harris Dickinson:And Ryan was his first scene with her. And he's like, because he's never acted before either. So he's just like, he comes to me. He's like, oh, my God, she's really good, isn't she? I'm like, yeah, you got to get there, too. You know, and he's like, you're right. And so then we would work, work, work, work. And I would tell him stuff like, you could say that line walking away. You don't need to stay where you are. You can walk to the elevator and say it. He goes, I can? I said, yeah, do it, whatever you feel. And he's like, okay. And then he delivers that line, walk away, and it's perfect. And eventually he gets to a place where he is at the same level.

32:56Harris Dickinson:But it was amazing how he was watching her perform, being like, this is awesome. I'm like, you can't do that.

33:03Chris Hewitt:That's amazing. Let's talk about Dwayne. Yes. Because Dwayne's phenomenal in this movie, as I'm sure you have heard before, as you know.

33:10Harris Dickinson:Even if I didn't hear it, watching him do this was one of the most incredible things that I've experienced. Because I knew he could do it. From the moment I met him, I'm like, this is inside of him. And I know that he has this ability. But what I was asking of him was basically to embody the soul of another human being. And be that person. Which is a lot. You know? Because you can't have a false note. Everything has to be real. Everything has to feel like, oh, he's not thinking about that decision. He's just doing it. And it was remarkable. Being able to talk to him about something as abstract as, well, when I get, I would say, when I cry, not so much something sad.

34:02Harris Dickinson:It's more that I'm emotionally confused. And I don't know where to go. and he hears that and he's like he's like okay and he gets in the elevator and then you see it on his face his eyes are just going back and forth back and forth he's trying to attach to a certain emotion yeah but he's allowing his brain to short circuit yeah and i'm like this is the most incredible thing i've ever seen that that's like it's just it was and then he turns around then he's acting with his back you know it's remarkable and he knew he's like oh you're not getting a shot of me on the front I go no he's okay and so he knew that he had to have that and I said when you're in there like you feel everybody watching and he's he feels that and then he turns you know

34:45Chris Hewitt:because he doesn't want to be watched anymore yeah it's great I mean Dwayne's talked about this in interviews about the movie and he's talked about how he he's pursued over the last few years the the movie star thing yeah but when he first burst onto the scene you know there was yeah there was

35:00Harris Dickinson:some he's always been great yeah early wrestling you know yes he has a way with words and he has a way with the crowd that's really unique and special and then even the final boss run that he did it was unbelievable you know so i think it's it's it really is just like he it's it's it's it's been there you know but i think that he was like why rock the boat you know certain ways and But at the same time, it's like when he came to me in 2019, I could sense that there was this desire to explore another side of himself, you know, one that's connected to the reason why people love him. You know, and it's like the movies he does, people enjoy because they feel connected to him.

35:45Chris Hewitt:Yeah.

35:45Harris Dickinson:There's a magnetism to him and he lets you in and he's so kind and you feel that emanating from him. And that's why people love him. And so now you watch him give a performance like this and you think, oh my God, I loved him before, but now I have a whole other view. And it's like it almost deepens it in a way because it's the same person. It's just different sides. And I think that that's what was so interesting about his decision to even approach me about wanting to do Mark Kerr's life. is that here you have a guy who presents himself in a very specific way and has to put on a face for the benefit of other people.

36:26Harris Dickinson:And yet inside he's struggling with a lot of things. And there's a complicated mess inside of there. And I thought, oh, wow, that's really interesting. So he sees something in this. And I could saw something in Mark 2. And we saw the same thing. And so it really was just a kind of beautiful pairing. and we got to really deep places together.

36:48Chris Hewitt:Yeah, it's not hard to see the draw parallels between certain aspects of Dwayne and his career and Mark.

36:53Harris Dickinson:And then the other thing was specifically like working with Kazu on the prosthetics. Yeah. I knew that Dwayne was expressing himself through Mark and his story. And I didn't want the prosthetics to overwhelm him and so that he completely disappeared. But he needed to disappear enough. Yeah. But I wanted him to shine through because it was important, you know, that he was present, you know?

37:19Chris Hewitt:Yeah, absolutely. I just want to talk about the, you've got one of the great, I think, one, two punches in sports movie history this year. So you have The Smashing Machine. Yes. Which I don't know whether you consider it a sports movie or not, but obviously people will put it in that bracket. And then a little film called Happy Gilmore 2. I know, that's right. Which you were filming while editing this.

37:44Harris Dickinson:Yes. I love that. It's interesting because Sandler called me while I was filming Happy Gilmore. Or while I was filming Smash Machine. Yeah. And he said, I want you to be in Happy Gilmore 2. And I was like, oh, my God. And he's like, I want you to be the bad guy. And I'm like, you're kidding? I'm like, yes. I said, oddly enough, I've been watching some of these guys online. And I'm like, I know exactly what I could look like, all that stuff. And so it was exciting. And that's also just like how my brain works is it's nice to, to shift off a little so that when you come back, you have a better view of it.

38:19Harris Dickinson:Because you can get lost if you're kind of in your own hole on certain things. So it's nice to get away, see a whole new group of people, a whole new view. I am not the boss, so somebody has to tell me what to do. I have to listen. So it puts you in your place a little bit. So I like that, you know. And just specifically, I just think that like, hey, I'm going to go where I think is fun and exciting. And I don't think, I don't know if one would be as good without the other. Your performance tickled me immensely.

38:54Chris Hewitt:There's a moment where Frank gets injured and screams in primal pain.

39:00Harris Dickinson:I'm so glad you brought that up because in the script I read it, it says he screams and it screams for a long time. And I'm like, well, he must be burned. And they go, great. So that's where the burn came from. And then I realized we had shot the burn. So I had this horrific burn on my face the whole movie. So that when we shot the part where I had to get burned afterwards, I thought, oh, my God, I got to really sell the burn. Because in my head, everything has to be realistic. I don't care where I am or how it is. So when he does that, it's also like I know it's coming. and I just remembered I did that and I was just like it was a primal scream I knew I had to sell that I had a Freddy Krueger face and I remember falling down and all of this glass broke and all this stuff and I remember okay we're not going to do this again so I gotta and I remembered something from good time when I went through the glass that like they they're that safety glass yeah it's It's still sharp, so don't rub around in it.

40:03Harris Dickinson:So I knew that. So when I fell down and all this glass broke behind me, I knew just kind of to keep myself off the ground. But I kept the scene going and I kept screaming. And yes. It worked.

40:15Chris Hewitt:It worked. It absolutely worked. Shooter McGavin. Oh my God. Can I suggest a Smashing Machine style biopic of Frank Manatee at some point? That's a potential project for you to do down the line. That would be a great one. Amazing. There you go. I think we said two of the seven words you can say on TV or podcasts that's pretty good that's not too bad

40:36Harris Dickinson:just like that this motherfucker's over

40:39Chris Hewitt:okay that was Benny Safdie we'll be talking about the Smashing Machine later on in the show now it is time to delve deep into the week's movie news or I say delve have a shallow wallow through the week's movie news might be the better way of putting it because there's not a lot going on out there as far as I can tell anything that has floated your boat?

41:00John Nugent:There have been trailers this week. There have been trailers. Yes. And none more so than Greenland Migration.

41:05Malcolm McDowell:Okay.

41:06John Nugent:Which is the sequel to Greenland, which we reviewed on this podcast during the pandemic, where Jerry Butler moved to Greenland.

41:11Malcolm McDowell:Weren't they meant to be underground for maybe longer than one person's lifetime? So why is he above ground again?

41:16John Nugent:Well, gathering from the trailer, it's a very different beast to the first film. There's something about some kind of valley. I think it's in France and that it can sustain life. and then there's a problem in the bunker and then they have been going outside, presumably to get sandwiches or something, and essentially they leave the Greenland bunker and head off to France.

41:36Malcolm McDowell:Okay, but once they leave the Greenland bunker, and forgive me if I'm fuzzy on some of the details here, aren't they still, and again, I'm just speculating, in Greenland?

41:45John Nugent:I mean, yeah. So my question, I guess, would be, the place where I want to be.

41:50Malcolm McDowell:How do they get from Greenland, in a post-apocalyptic scenario,

41:55John Nugent:to France? When EasyJet aren't functioning, is what you're saying?

41:58Malcolm McDowell:I mean, I don't think EasyJet flies to Greenland.

42:01John Nugent:Well, then that's presumably not how they do it.

42:02Malcolm McDowell:No, I guess not.

42:03John Nugent:I haven't watched the trailer yet, no.

42:04Chris Hewitt:Holt McAllen flew to Greenland. He did, but he didn't make it. Oh, spoiler for Greenland. Spoiler for Greenland. Speaking of which. Which, I have to say, is a film I absolutely loved. I've seen it a few times now. I think it's a really, really solid end of the world. You know, big rock fall from sky, kill everyone, except Jerry Butler and his family kind of movie. but it was kind of you know grunt's eye view of the end of the world I really really liked it and really rated it but Rick Roman Waugh the director whose name I cannot believe I said correctly at the first time of asking did with that movie and I was excited when they announced Greenland 2 Migration and then I saw the trailer and I'm less excited I'll be honest but

42:48John Nugent:there's a part of you that even though it doesn't look I guess the word I'm looking for is good I really want to see it. I really, really want to see it.

42:57Malcolm McDowell:I'm obviously going to see it. It's not a good question.

42:59John Nugent:Because I really, really enjoyed Greenland. And it might have been because we were in our little weird little bunkers of our own, because it was a pandemic film. That's true. So I think all pandemic films need a certain amount of reassessment because we watch them in a weird way.

43:09Malcolm McDowell:Yeah, like anything that had an explosion or a car going fast was like, oh my God, I love this. This is amazing. Because obviously they cancelled a lot of the big films or postponed them and we were left with a diet of sometimes very good, but smaller scale indies and quiet dramas and depressing stuff. It's genuinely good. Yeah, but I believe you. I remember being impressed, but I'm just saying we were gravening on a curve.

43:37John Nugent:It was abundantly clear all along why Jerry was being selected to survive the end of the world as an essential person. Because he worked for a building company.

43:46Chris Hewitt:No, he didn't work for a building company. He was an architect. I mean, yes. He was in charge of major pores.

43:51Malcolm McDowell:Yes.

43:52Chris Hewitt:They need to rebuild in this new world. I saw the bunker. I'm not sure they did. Greenland 2 migration. So after the Earth has cooled again, I guess, after the comet has hit, spoiler for Greenland, by the way, they get out of the bunker and they find that Earth is now a very toxic, unpredictable environment. There's all kinds of natural disasters going on. Yes. And that Greenland itself, the bunker, they will not sustain life beyond a certain point. So they have to move. They have to migrate. And then they're assailed on all sides by all kinds of different disasters. And more comets are heading because obviously there'll be after comets and smaller offshoots and things like that.

44:35Malcolm McDowell:So is this related to Ice Age migration at all?

44:40John Nugent:I mean, it is many ways an Ice Age and there is a migration in it. Oh, there we go.

44:44Malcolm McDowell:I guess so then.

44:44Chris Hewitt:Listen, it's Jerry Butler, so I'm starting at a baseline of five and going up from there. Of course. Yeah, it doesn't look brilliant, I have to say. But also brilliant.

44:53Malcolm McDowell:Yeah. But also brilliant.

44:55Chris Hewitt:And we give Jerry Butler the benefit of the doubt every day of the week. Gareth Evans, old friend of the show, his last movie, Havoc, of course, came out this year after about, what, four years of waiting. and he indicated at the time during interviews that he was eager to make up for lost time and was about to get on the road already with his new movie and he was and he has and that's what he's been doing over the last 12 weeks or so he's been shooting in Wales a film called A Cult Is My Passport starring Shopei Darizu who of course worked with Gareth Evans on Gangs of London first series Tim Roth is in it Jack Rayner is in it And it's a remake of a Japanese crime thriller from the 1960s that I frankly have never heard of, but I am going to try and seek out A Cult Is My Passport.

45:48Chris Hewitt:And it's a noir-tinged thriller with, if Gareth Evans is being true to form, lots of bodies and bullets and blood, I'm guessing. So I'm very, very excited about that.

45:58Malcolm McDowell:Well, I'm excited. Anything he does action-wise, I'm going to want to see.

46:02Chris Hewitt:Yeah, yeah, very much so as well. That's exciting. So are you excited about that? Are you excited about the new film from Tony Gilroy?

46:09Malcolm McDowell:Yes. Again, anything he makes, I'm excited about seeing, but particularly when it also stars David Harbour and Pedro Pascal. So it's a film called Behemoth with an exclamation point.

46:21Chris Hewitt:Ooh.

46:22Malcolm McDowell:And all we know, well, I mean, it would seem so on Oklahoma rules. All we know is it's about a cellist. Do I know which of them? If either plays the cellist, I do not. But we don't know anything else to go on. I don't care. I'm in Tony Gilroy David Harbour Pedro Pascal cellos 10 out of 10 no notes cello

46:43Chris Hewitt:but we do like a cello we do like a cello we do like a Tony Gilroy we do like Pedro Pascal I think it's good that he's been given opportunities it's been a while since we've seen him in a movie it's been about three days it's been a month what are we supposed to do people are starved I've been used to

47:02Malcolm McDowell:at least one a month all year What, the trailer for Mandalorian and Grogu is supposed to get me through? Are you kidding me?

47:11Chris Hewitt:Here's one of your five a day, your five Pedro Pascal films a day. That's exciting. But is it as exciting as The Simpsons Movie 2?

47:23Malcolm McDowell:I would say maybe more.

47:25John Nugent:I mean, we had to watch The Simpsons Movie 1.

47:28Malcolm McDowell:Okay, I have a theory, though, about this. That it's a demon? No. Could be bunnies, though. I have a theory that maybe this is going to be announced, maybe not yet, but this is going to be announced as the finale for the whole of The Simpsons.

47:44John Nugent:The end of The Simpsons experiment.

47:45Malcolm McDowell:Yeah. Because it's been 35, 37 years. Yeah, 37.

47:51John Nugent:I wonder if the cast are getting to the point of saying,

47:55Malcolm McDowell:it's time now. You can rest now, Tony.

47:58John Nugent:Guys, guys, we've lifted the curse. Your souls are free.

48:01Chris Hewitt:Well, obviously, Tilly Norwood. I don't know if you guys know this, but she does an amazing Mr. Burns. So I think if they could get her in to do all the characters, then I think they could rest. They can finally rest. Harry Shearer, I was looking up the ages of the Spinal Tap actors the other week. Harry Shearer is 82. 82. And I know actors don't retire, apart from the ones we talked about earlier on in the show. But come on.

48:29Malcolm McDowell:And look, I am, I mean, this is perhaps a bit of wishful thinking on my part on the basis that I think things in culture should come to an end one day. And I recognize that there's every chance that Disney slash Fox disagrees with me on that very, very profoundly. Because money. Because money. But I do feel like, at least for the original cast, there might be a sense that, you know what, we do two more years, we do a movie. Hey, maybe they'll even do like two movies. I don't know. Make it to 40 years, a nice even 40. but I feel like there should be an end, and maybe this would be the end, and that would actually get me more excited about it, if I'm perfectly honest.

49:08Malcolm McDowell:Yeah, I agree.

49:08Chris Hewitt:It would make me watch it. Why do you want to kill Bart? Die, Bart, die.

49:13Malcolm McDowell:Die, Bart, die.

49:15Chris Hewitt:No man who speaks German could ever be evil.

49:19Malcolm McDowell:I just, yeah, I personally, that would be my call on this, but if it's just another Simpsons movie, it needs to be significantly better than the first one, if I'm honest

49:30Chris Hewitt:Spider Pig or no yeah I wasn't a big fan of the Simpsons movie it's a two star film but also it's like why have they taken 20 years to follow it up it was a huge hit it did really well the box office the Simpsons is still a juggernaut a cultural juggernaut no matter how much people pretend they don't watch it anymore it's still huge it's phenomenal so why has it taken 20 years I don't know alright well here's a fun quiz if we're talking about people's ages yeah

49:54Malcolm McDowell:oh okay

49:54Chris Hewitt:alright so I've already told you that Harry Shearer who voices Mr. Burns and Smithers and all those other great characters that I've totally forgotten, is 82. All right, so you've got that for free. But can you tell me the ages of the other main Simpsons voice cast? Okay.

50:16Malcolm McDowell:Almost certainly not, but let's give it a go.

50:18Chris Hewitt:Definitely not. Can you tell me who they voice in The Simpsons? This would be a fun one. Okay.

50:24Malcolm McDowell:Probably. Right.

50:25Chris Hewitt:Dan Castellaneta. That's Homer

50:28Malcolm McDowell:Yeah

50:29Chris Hewitt:That is Homer How old do you think Dan Castellaneta is? I think he's in his latter 60s

50:40John Nugent:I'm going to say 67

50:42Malcolm McDowell:I think he's younger than you think he is So I'm going to say 62 Okay

50:53Chris Hewitt:So let's just put this into context Contrutext, shall we? So The Simpsons began in 1989.

51:03Malcolm McDowell:Yeah.

51:04Chris Hewitt:So the same year that Empire Magazine began. But they first started doing it. It was Dan Castellan and they first started voicing Homer on the Tracy Ullman show in 1987. So that was nearly 40 years ago. So you think he's 62. You think when he first started doing the voice of Homer Simpson, he was 24.

51:27Malcolm McDowell:I mean, when you put it like that, it doesn't sound so convincing.

51:32Chris Hewitt:I believe, because I know it, because I've got it written down in front of me, he is 67 years old.

51:40John Nugent:Whoa. Spot on. I'm very proud of that. That's a spot on fucking, especially since I don't have the first clue what he looks like post the time he was in Alimobiel and he was in a court case and he wore the Homer Simpson costume and he took him. But I don't, yeah, no idea. So that was just me Vibing Using the force Let's see if I can make it A full house Who's next?

52:02Chris Hewitt:Okay Well next is Marge Marge Marge is

52:05John Nugent:Is that Julie Kavner?

52:07Benny Safdie:Julie Kavner

52:08Chris Hewitt:Homer I think Julie Kavner Is 63 63 So you think Younger than Dan Castellaneta This is what the people Tune in for I'm going older Okay

52:21Malcolm McDowell:I don't know why It's probably the rasp To the voice The rasp to the voice

52:26Chris Hewitt:Are you going significantly older or ballpark Castellaneta?

52:32Malcolm McDowell:If he's 67, let's say 70. Oh.

52:35Chris Hewitt:70. Julie, what did you say, James? I think I said 63.

52:42John Nugent:Did I say 63? I don't know. It was in that ballpark.

52:45Chris Hewitt:Okay. It was in the ballpark. It was in the ballpark. The ballpark. The ballpark. The pack, the car next to the ballpark. Julie Kavaner is 70. five years old. I know. I know. All right, let's move on. Yardley Smith, the voice of Lisa. So Lisa, how old is Lisa in The Simpsons? Is she younger than Bart? She is his older sister.

53:13John Nugent:Older sister?

53:14Chris Hewitt:Oh, she is younger sister.

53:15Malcolm McDowell:No, she's his younger sister. He's 10. Oh, see, he's the older. She's the middle child. He's 10 and she's 8, right?

53:19Chris Hewitt:Apparently he's just turned 11 in The Simpsons.

53:21Malcolm McDowell:Wait, they've just... Something has changed?

53:24Chris Hewitt:Yeah, he's aged up. Wow. Well, people have died. I know people have died. So people, you know, it makes sense.

53:30Malcolm McDowell:That doesn't mean time moves on.

53:31Chris Hewitt:A 10-year-old boy can become 11. So, but yeah, Lisa. Lisa, how old is the voice of Lisa?

53:41Malcolm McDowell:60, 61. I'm going 61 again.

53:43Chris Hewitt:Helen is going 61. I'm going to go 62, so I'm one year older. One of you is correct. Spot on, in fact. Is it me? It is not. No! Helen has equalized 1-1 Yartley Smith is 61 Born July 3rd 1964 In Paris France

54:02Malcolm McDowell:Suite à l 'heure Suite à l 'heure

54:05Chris Hewitt:Indeed Alright So That brings us to Bart Bart Who's the voice of Bart Do you know the voice of Bart folks?

54:13Malcolm McDowell:Who did we just have? Yartley Smith

54:16Chris Hewitt:Nancy Cartwright

54:17Malcolm McDowell:Nancy Nancy Cartwright

54:19Chris Hewitt:The voice of a 10 Turned 11 year old boy For nearly 40 years How old do you think Nancy Cartwright is?

54:28Malcolm McDowell:64 64

54:31Chris Hewitt:Okie dokie Jimbo? 65 65 What? I see what he's doing here He's being very clever He's such a spoiler He's very clever He's hedging his bets Yeah And he is right to do so Come on Because it wins him the point in this case Nancy Cartwright October 25th 1957 It makes her 67 years old She's very close to being 68, Lo But there you go 2-1 to Jimbo Right There's a There's a A tie Potential Okay Here Okay There is One other major Unless I've missed someone completely Simpsons Cast member It's Hank Asaria Okay The wonderful Hank Asaria We love him Yeah He's great He's a master of voices He's been in live action stuff An ex-girlfriend of mine Loved him to the point that it actually discomforted me a little bit it was like your it was like your Taylor Swift obsession James and jealously I called him wank bizarria wow it didn't it didn't didn't take didn't take it didn't take I'm sure she did anyway he's the only member of the Simpsons cast I've actually ever met really

55:40John Nugent:I have also met him and I don't think any of the others so same yeah there we go Helen

55:45Malcolm McDowell:I don't believe so no

55:46John Nugent:alright good stuff

55:48Malcolm McDowell:wow this is scintillating

55:50John Nugent:that was a short conversational cul-de-sac I'm going to go with 62.

55:59Chris Hewitt:62, says James. Helen, you have a choice here. You can go 63 or you can go 61. What's it going to be? He could be 105.

56:07Malcolm McDowell:I think he's older than that, but I'll go just to be a spoiler like James. I'll go 62. You said 62. I'll go 63. See how it feels?

56:16Chris Hewitt:Okay. What do you want? That was an attempt at one of his voices. I'm not quite sure which one I could do a pretty good Krusty Okay There you go, that was alright Okay That's Tank Castle and Edda anyway Hank Asaria Henry Albert Asaria Born New York City United States April 25th 1964 Which makes him 61

56:50John Nugent:I win! I win!

56:52Chris Hewitt:I am the I win guy.

56:53John Nugent:I win!

56:56Chris Hewitt:Is that 2-all or 3-1 to Jimbo? I think I just went.

56:59Malcolm McDowell:I think he wins. It's fine. I don't mind.

57:02Chris Hewitt:I think James wins. Alright, there you go. So, I'm excited about their ages. And, you know, now looking at their ages, listen, I don't want to write anyone off. But, what Helen might be onto something with this, it might be the end of the Simpsons thing. because they're all getting on a bit.

57:21Malcolm McDowell:I just feel like maybe at some point they want to retire and enjoy their millions.

57:26Chris Hewitt:I mean, they have made so much money.

57:28Malcolm McDowell:They have, and they deserve it. I genuinely don't have a problem with stars earning money for the work that they do. There are so many people in the list whose wages I would cut before I got to stars. There are so many people at studios, come on, who are getting paid through the nose. And these are the guys who are actually doing the work for, as we've just said, nearly 40 years you know

57:48Chris Hewitt:let's name no names but yes I agree and listen if they did want to hang up their voice boots so to speak I think we have just proved on this podcast that we could seamlessly replace them

58:00Malcolm McDowell:as long as all it involved is Krusty saying hey

58:03Chris Hewitt:hey or someone going eat my shorts there you go that's what the hell was that eat my shorts excellent Anyway, let's move on, shall we? Sure, please That's enough for news this week Shall we have a guest? Sure, yes Shall we have Malcolm McDowell? Oh, amazing What an actor, what a legend, what a man Clockwork Orange, If, with four dots, if you please Star Trek Generations, he is the man who killed Captain Kirk Zoran Zoran, time after time, which he played H.G. Wells pursuing Jack the Ripper through time. I'm not kidding. That's a film that exists. It's a great film. Check it out. He is an absolute icon, a legend.

58:55Chris Hewitt:He could be seen briefly in this week's The Partisan, which is a quote-unquote true-life World War II thriller about Christina Scarbeck, played by Morgan Polanski, yes, daughter of Roman Polanski, who was a Polish agent under British control during World War II and she gets up to all kinds of adventures and Malcolm McDowell plays her handler in this this is a film written and directed by James Marquand son of Richard Marquand director of Return of the Jedi and that is something we discussed Malcolm McDowell and I when I sat down and zoomed with him a few weeks ago now and we had a good old chat about that about a great many things including Because It's Me Liverpool Football Club.

59:41Chris Hewitt:Here we are. Enjoy. We are delighted to be joined on the Emperor Podcast by the legendary Malcolm McDowell, star of the Partisan. How are you, sir? I'm very well, thank you.

59:50John Nugent:I wouldn't say I'm the star of the Partisan. I have a very nice supporting role, but the star is Morgan Polanski, and she's absolutely brilliant in it. Really, it was a pleasure to work with her. She's really interesting and put me on the phone with her dad. She goes, Dad, listen, have a guess who this is. I said, Roman. I said, we never worked together. We never worked together.

1:00:21Chris Hewitt:It's such a fascinating project. It is very much a Polish movie. How did it come your way?

1:00:29John Nugent:I don't know, to be honest. I guess the director, James, must have thought of me. Who knows how these things come up? You're on a list, I guess, and they go down the list. And then they come someone who goes, yes, I'd quite like a couple of weeks in Warsaw. or whatever it is. I don't know what it is. I've always felt, though, a great warmth towards Polish people and Poland itself. Maybe it's because I'm a war baby and Poland meant a lot to my father's generation. Or maybe it's just that I like the people very much. And I went there to Krakow quite a while ago. I mean, 40 years ago, maybe, or 30 years ago.

1:01:26And they were telling me how the hidden copies,

1:01:34John Nugent:forbidden copies of If, Oh, Lucky Man, films like that, were shown in Poland and were absolutely held as sacrosanct. And they were so important to that sort of, you know, the intelligentsia, I guess, who were sneaking in to watch them. God knows what had happened if they got caught. But anyway, so it was a great, great comfort to me to know that people were watching these films outside of the norm, i.e. the West End of London or New York and stuff. And it really meant something more to them. So in a way, they meant more to me, you know. I don't know. So anyway, I've always had a great feeling towards the country and the people.

1:02:32John Nugent:I've always liked them very much. And so when this came up, I was very, you know, excited to do it. And sort of that's the way it is, you know, but it's, you know, not a lot of time for me. So I don't want to spend lots of time away from my home anymore. I've still got fairly young children, 16, 18, 21 boys at home. So I don't want to spend too long, you know, for instance, doing a play in New York. I couldn't do it. Two weeks of Warsaw, perfect. Yeah, perfect. Absolutely perfect. And enjoyable, very enjoyable. the director I love, James Marquand in fact he went off and wrote me another script and we did it, it's called Dog and Bull and we made it, it's in the camera he's just editing it now so and then he's written something else so I'm really excited because it brings me sort of back to my roots, to my home Yeah, what do you look for in a director, Malcolm?

1:03:45John Nugent:oh i don't look for anything um okay if they're nice and um sympathetic sympathetic then wonderful wonderful and if they like actors that's a bonus i mean i'm not going to be here talking a schneidy digs at directors of course because we couldn't live without them and my first responsibility on a film is to my director when if you're doing a play it's to the playwright i think more than the director but the director is the author really of the film even if they've got nasty producers that come in at the end and you know get rid of them and recup it which of course happens but um anyway um yes i was very lucky james marquand is a fantastic guy and you know i knew his father Richard years ago, and he directed one of the Star Wars.

1:04:48Benny Safdie:I can't remember which one.

1:04:51John Nugent:Which one? Return of the Jedi. The third one. One of the better ones. It's a great one. But I remember him from a Donald Sutherland movie called The Eye of the Needle. Great film. and when Donald passed away sadly in the last year that is the film I watched as a tribute to you know my old mucker not that I knew him well but um you know I felt a little a nod to his talent and there it was I thought I haven't seen that in 40 years I've got to watch it again Absolutely. That's a World War II movie as well, isn't it? Yes. Brilliant. Ken Follett. Brilliant book. Brilliant book. And Kate Nelligan was in it, who I liked enormously.

1:05:43John Nugent:He did a tremendous talent. And I enjoyed it. I enjoyed watching it very much. And, of course, Donald was really, really good in it. very menacing in this, not in an obvious way, but, um, perfectly cast.

1:06:02Chris Hewitt:Malcolm, you mentioned there that you are a war baby. Now, so you were born in 1943. I wondered, obviously you were, you were, you were too young to remember the war, but what was it like the aftermath of the war? Cause in a way that's a little bit about what this film is concerned with. Yes.

1:06:24John Nugent:a little bit um i just remember you know my father was in the raf he was a navigator in bomber command so we moved i was born in leeds we moved to bridlington in yorkshire right on the coast which is where he was based and he was based there because i suppose that's the quickest way to Germany was on the East Coast and actually to Norway.

1:06:57John Nugent:So what do I remember? I remember, of course, the rationing. But I also remember my father taking part in parades that went. I guess, I don't know why they would have parades, but I remember because running behind and listening to the band play. And my father was marching in it, you know. I remember that. That's a distinct memory. But I left Ridlington when I was six to go to Liverpool, and I'm sort of a Liverpool boy, really, by just living there. But my father was smart to me. He was brilliant because even though he wasn't a wealthy man, he sent me to a boarding school in the south, which is where, you know, I got rid of my northern accent, even though I was bullied because I was different.

1:08:05John Nugent:And I hated the school for like two years. And then I got to really love it, you know. Yeah. And that's where I got my love of theater because we did all these Shakespeare productions there at school. And I just loved it. You know, I loved all that. So for me, it was a godsend, you know. The North in the early 60s was a pretty bleak place. Although I did show up at the cavern and saw the Silver Beatles.

1:08:48how was that

1:08:50John Nugent:well they were you know they were a real tight band i mean they weren't singing their own songs as far as i remember they were singing mostly chuck berry and little richard stuff like that i was completely mesmerized by john lennon who had a fuck you all kind of attitude and um but but it was great they were great they were they were actually voted the second most popular band on merseyside the first being the mississippi the mersey sippies a jazz band the mersey sippies mersey sippies yeah

1:09:30Chris Hewitt:pretty cool though yeah it's a great it's a great pun yeah and i remember you know i went to see

1:09:37John Nugent:them a lot. I love them. And the cavern was such a cool place. Tiny, a sweat box, you know, just a tiny little dungeon, basically. I mean, the stage was only like nine inches high. But the sound was fantastic. It was a wine vault or beer vault, one of those. And it was, you know, jam-packed. People had just to hop from one foot to the other because you could not. not dance i mean it was just electric and then i went to see them sort of with this girlfriend who introduced me to them so every friday night and then one friday we went and suddenly i thought it was a different group because the boys were in suits or jackets and they had different hair you know because they used you when i saw them initially they were all in leather gear the drain pipes, they looked amazing.

1:10:40John Nugent:It was Marlon Brando, the wild one. Yes, with the brilled creamed hair. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I mean, they were all quiff DA haircuts. You know what that is, right? Duck's ass. Oh, yeah. Duck's ass. But that was just, we thought, well, Well, you know, there are hundreds and hundreds of groups in Liverpool. And I'm sure every city is the same. I didn't realize until I left that, no, it's completely unique. And every pub had a live band. It was just the way it was. I guess that's a big Irish influence, folk songs, you know. It's just an amazing kind of feeling. And, you know, Liverpool is a different kind of place.

1:11:34John Nugent:It's very unique. And I think it still is. I was back there in December. I was going to ask, do you get a chance to go back? I took my 16-year-old to Anfield. It was a religious experience, put it that way. What game did you see? we actually watched one that they drew against Fulham and they were very lucky to get a late goal and I think it was scored by dear Jota who was it was Diogo yes I'm a big red

1:12:13Chris Hewitt:I'm a big red

1:12:13John Nugent:I remember looking at you know I was in the new stand and by the way that's an experience the new one at the end incredible so I was sitting there and I'm looking down the field and I literally zeroed in on Virgil, running like a cart horse, you know, running this huge guy, flat out with like, I don't know, five minutes to go. It was like, right, boys, let's get this going. And, you know, and Jota pulled it out. Fulham played really well, though. You know, it was a fair result. But, you know, as Liverpool were playing at home.

1:12:58Chris Hewitt:But there you are. They were down to 10 men, Malcolm. So I think getting the draw was a pretty good result, all things said.

1:13:06John Nugent:Yeah, we were very baffled. We could not see why. It was Robertson sent off, wasn't it? Yes, that's right, yeah. We were like, what the hell did he say? Something to the ref? We never got it. Never got it at all. in fact I think when I saw the replay I was still quite baffled anyway who cares we won the league anyway so who cares

1:13:31Chris Hewitt:yeah by a big margin absolutely long may it continue the season would be amazing Malcolm I could talk Liverpool and films with you all day but I'm just it's been an absolute pleasure thank you so much sir you bet Okay, that was Malcolm McDowell and The Partisan is out now, folks. It is out right now on digital and in select cinemas around the country. All right, shall we delve deep into the week's releases?

1:14:03Malcolm McDowell:Let's do it.

1:14:04Chris Hewitt:The films that you can see on your sofa plex or in your multiplex. Where shall we begin? Shall we begin with The Smashing Machine? The Smashing Machine. Jimbo, smash me up, big boy. Oh, no.

1:14:18John Nugent:Yes, indeed, The Smashing Machine. So this has obviously had a lot of chat because it's the film that maybe, possibly, they like to think might get The Rock a certain Oscar nomination. I don't know that it necessarily will, but I think he will be in the conversation for awards for it. This is Benny Safdie's film, written and directed by Benny Solo. It's a solo Safdie, and it stars The Rock, Dwayne Johnson, as Mark Kerr, who was one... He's like the OG of the UFC, if you like your acronyms. so if you go back to I think this is set between 1997 and 2000 Mark Kerr was one of the kind of like the founding UFC fighters and it charts a very particular period in his career leading up to let's say a very important tournament and a very important match I think that's fairly safe to say if you don't know your history of the UFC if you don't know your history of Mark Kerr I do of course you do because you're a massive UFC nut aren't you?

1:15:08John Nugent:I just love acronyms you do you love your MMA and your UFC exactly

1:15:13Malcolm McDowell:the combo of MMA and UFC is pretty much irresistible at that point.

1:15:17John Nugent:Exactly that. So, Dwayne Johnson, as we said, is Mark Kerr. Emily Blunt plays his girlfriend, Dawn. You've also got his best friend, played by Ryan Bader, which is Mark Coleman. He's another UFC fighter and the two of them have fought and there's a very real chance that they will fight again as this goes. More than anything else, this is kind of like a character study. It's not a traditional... I mean, it is a sports movie but it's not Raging Bull. It's not Rocky and I think part of that is because it's not fictional. It has a very distinctive arc and rhythm to it because what happened is a matter of record and it's maybe not what you'd have done if you were fictionalizing it but it deals with him as a man and him as a very flawed man who had an addiction to opiates and how he struggled through that to get back into the ring but it's also he's an interesting contradiction because on the one hand he is a very angry man he's a very flawed man he's a very violent man he's literally a professional ufc fighter but he's also very emotionally literate and very sensitive and very articulate so it's not the kind of performance I think you'd necessarily expect from A, The Rock or B, from you know, if you're saying he's the OG UFC fighter you'd expect him to be a bit of a lummox and he isn't that so he's an instantly fascinating character and I think for me like there's an interview he does with a journalist where they're saying to him you know, what would you feel like if you lose this match your big match come out you know, how's it going to affect you and he's like he looks at him and he really thinks about it He's like, yeah, I don't know, because I've never lost.

1:16:43John Nugent:And he's not bravado. He genuinely, he doesn't, I don't know what it's like to lose. I can't imagine what it's like to lose. And to a certain extent, you know, it's The Rock saying that. And you can imagine that because The Rock, and I'm not saying he has it written into his contract, but I bet you he does, that he cannot lose a fight in any of his films because that's not a thing that happens. And whereas in this film, he is very flawed, he is very fallible, and he does lose. And I think it's interesting watching this character develop and how this character deals with it, but it's really interesting watching it through the lens of this is also The Rock.

1:17:14John Nugent:And he does seem very flawed, and he does seem very, you know, sensitive and emotionally damaged. And so kind of my takeaway from this was very much like it's an absolute nailed on five-star performance in a four-star film for me. Like, it's a good film. It's a great performance. I don't think it's the plotiest. It maybe doesn't go where you expect it will go, because again, because it's... No, I think it doesn't at all. Yeah, I think if this were a traditional fictional sports movie you would have a very different plot arc in mind so it doesn't go in those same places but I think he is so good in it and now Emily Blunt I will say I think Emily Blunt is great I don't think her character is the most rounded perhaps that's what the character was like I do not know she is based on a real person but I felt she was a little short-stirved served in the character department do you agree?

1:18:00Malcolm McDowell:Yeah I would and I think it's look it's interesting to not just have a very straightforward supportive girlfriend which is kind of how I thought this was starting off. They've got a more complicated relationship than that because it is a complicated situation. And I think it's one of the things that the film really wants to get into is just how much it takes to be a champion. And we've had other films, of course, about that. I mean, The Wrestler springs to mind, for example. But I think this really gets into the havoc that it creates, not just for you, but for those around you. And in particular, when you then have other personal problems on top of that, how much that can affect people around you and how much they can then put their problems back on you as a result.

1:18:38Malcolm McDowell:And so there's a lot of kind of give and take in the relationship, but it did feel like we didn't maybe know a lot about her outside the relationship because it is his story. I get it. It's focused on him, but it does mean that she comes across as very unsympathetic at times in a way that I don't think feels fully rounded as a human character.

1:18:58John Nugent:Whereas he does. I think because he is so rounded, it almost shines a light on how little she is.

1:19:03Malcolm McDowell:Yeah, I agree with that.

1:19:04John Nugent:It is the most, quote-unquote, acting he has ever done. Like, it is proper, like, acting, acting with a capital A. And he does it really, really well. And it is a dimension to The Rock that I don't think... Because he's a movie star, not an actor, right? Up until this point, he is a movie star. He's not what you'd really think of as an actor. And I think this film changes that expectation for him.

1:19:23Malcolm McDowell:Yeah, he's done some acting, you know, like... Pain and Gain, I guess.

1:19:26John Nugent:There's a little bit more of it than that.

1:19:27Malcolm McDowell:Pain and Gain, and the early one, the Get Shorty...

1:19:30John Nugent:The Scorpion King, you mean?

1:19:31Malcolm McDowell:No, I do not. Be cool. I never mean this see him be cool be cool yeah where he's a you know country music loving you know very sweet guy but like there's a real character to many of his films but this is on a different level for him and I'm really glad to see it because like I do think he cares about acting I think he cares about film he also cares about the audience and everybody having a good time and blah blah blah but it's nice to see him stretching different muscles if you will forgive me and and trying something new and pushing himself in a different direction I mean, weirdly, he's probably the same age, roughly, as Mark Kerr.

1:20:06Malcolm McDowell:Yeah. I mean, not far off.

1:20:08Chris Hewitt:Younger than Chrisley and then Dan Castellaneta. Sure.

1:20:11Malcolm McDowell:But, you know, he is playing about 20 years younger than his actual age, I think. But I think it's maybe taken him this long to kind of process some of this stuff himself, because I think he's pushed his body in these ways. He's been through, you know, if you follow him on Instagram, apart from anything else, you've seen him go through operations and various, you know, fixing various bits of him that were about to fall off. and you know that sort of struggle and that pain and that you know training yourself up and up and up from various injuries is something that he can very much relate to I think so I think he's bringing a lot of himself to it but it is a it is a character it's not just The Rock playing himself

1:20:46John Nugent:yeah 100 % and it feels very distinct I also think it's interesting because you talk about The Rock is like one of the most famous movie stars in the world and Mark Kerr you know interestingly isn't one of the most famous fighters because he was that period of UFC before they became superstars, before it was very high profile. So he's not like a known quantity. People have never really heard of him. And actually, I really like, there's an element of this film which almost shows you the man Mark Kerr. And it's just like, this guy should be super famous and isn't. And this film kind of is points to change that.

1:21:16Chris Hewitt:Yeah. So four stars in from the smashing machine, Gromit. And next up, Hell's Bells.

1:21:23Malcolm McDowell:Yeah. Okay, let's talk first about Urchin, I think, which is the other really, really fascinating really strong film this week uh this is the directorial and writing debut of harris dickinson yes harris dickinson the guy who just broke through onto the sort of a-list as an actor but he's just he's like 12 years old he's like 12 years old he's he's not but he you know he's he's a young man and based on this he's gonna go far so this is a story where he does not cast himself in the lead role actually he gives himself enough to do with writing and directing and probably making tea and playing a supporting role.

1:21:58Malcolm McDowell:He's cast Frank Delane in the lead role of Mike here. And this is a guy who has... Delane! No, no. You son of a bitch! No, he seems like a very nice man. He's, of course, the guy from Fear the Walking Dead, things like that. He's, on the evidence of this, a really, really good actor that has maybe not had the film career yet that he deserves. But this has him playing Mike, who is a guy who has been sleeping rough in London. He's been struggling to get money. He has an addiction as well. And he's just struggling to get by. And we open with him basically mugging a guy and ending up in jail. But the story really starts when he gets out again.

1:22:40Malcolm McDowell:So he is sober at this point. He takes a little job as a cook. He's, you know, in sort of sheltered accommodation to kind of ease his passage back into the real world. You know, this is his chance for a kind of a new start. And this is really about the struggle that he has to take that chance and to get past all of the systemic things in his way, get past his own worst decisions and worst moments and his own just volatility. This is a guy who has no clue how to productively manage his own emotions. He is an absolute ticking time bomb in every scene in this movie. And he clearly has a heart and he clearly has a really lovely person inside him who cannot get past his own bullshit, really.

1:23:26Malcolm McDowell:And he cannot get past his own bad habits and bad, you know, way of life that he's learned. And just also, yeah, you know, some systemic struggles as well. like you know the fact that he's got this sheltered accommodation for a certain length of time but after that you know good luck you're on your own see if you make it you know and and so i think this film does not it doesn't it doesn't excuse him for his own mistakes but also kind of points out we're not making it easy for people to get out of this destructive cycle we're not we're not making it possible necessarily for someone uh in this situation to do the right thing this is someone who has by definition got into this situation by doing the wrong thing he's not going to suddenly make great decisions now when you rip his, you know, his security network away.

1:24:12Malcolm McDowell:So I just thought it was really, really powerful. It has moments of kind of almost dreamlike, strange quality where he sort of goes into almost like a cave or a church. It's maybe like inside his head, but it doesn't really explain what's going on there. You just have to kind of feel it. I think it's very much about emotion rather than a strict analysis of Mike or anybody else. but I just thought it was so hugely empathetic and so powerful in its examination of this guy and why he is you know a complete fuck up like I'm not gonna sugarcoat that he's just a fucking disaster of a human being but there's a reason why and you kind of understand that as you watch him and I just thought it was really really powerful fantastic I haven't seen it yet but

1:24:57Chris Hewitt:I'm a big fan of Harris Dickinson as an actor he's been on the podcast a number of times in fact he'll be on the podcast again in a few minutes and uh he's a really really great guy and he's a very very smart very very um enthusiastic lover of film as well very very he's a cineast i'm not surprised that he wants to get into the director's chair yeah not least because he's about to tie himself up for a few years um playing john lennon for sam mendes and those beatles movies so yeah but it seems to me that this is the sort of stuff the you know movies like this movies like scrapper are the movies that really excite him really animate him i agree with that and i but

1:25:37Malcolm McDowell:i think you know if he does if if having a big hollywood career and playing john lennon is the price of getting more movies like this i mean that's not exactly bad work to do on his part so i hope there's many many more like this on down the line and that simply acting for a little while will give him a chance to to cook up something more you know so we get us more four stars as

1:25:57Chris Hewitt:well four stars then for urchin uh next up should we do him yeah let's uh so this is jordan peele

1:26:03Malcolm McDowell:produced uh justin tipping directed film um about a kind of american football um in a league that is definitely not the nfl just to be clear for legal reasons um there is a huge amount of money there's a huge amount of pressure there's a huge amount of excitement around the best players who include Isaiah White, who's played by Marlon Wayans. And he's been like at the top of his game for like 14, 15 years at this point. But as we join this story, Tyreek Withers plays Cameron Cade, who is the new big thing. He is the sort of star of the, we're not calling it a draft. It's not the NFL draft for legal reasons, but if it were, it would be a lot like that.

1:26:45Malcolm McDowell:And he is attacked just before the draft and suffers an injury which could end or at least threaten his career. But Isaiah White gives him a sort of lifeline. He says, come train with me for a week, show them all what you can do, prove yourself to me, and I'm going to put my weight behind you and basically get you that career that you want that will keep your family safe, that will give you all the, you know, the money and the status and the respect and everything else that you can possibly get in this game. So it seems like a great deal. It seems almost like too good to be true. It seems like it might be some kind of deal with some kind of devil.

1:27:19Malcolm McDowell:Spoiler, that's exactly what it is, because this is a horror movie, all right? This is coming from Jordan Peele as a producer. It's very unsettling. It's visually very cool. So White lives in this desert compound. It's all sort of curving concrete walls and just unsettling art and half sort of treated pelts of animals and antlers and all this kind of like unsettling shit, frankly. I mean, the man is married to Julia Fox, who is an unsettling person. And I say this with love and respect for her. And so Cameron is kind of thrown into the middle of this and he's trying to prove himself and he's kind of trying to figure out his path, but unsettling shit keeps happening.

1:28:05Malcolm McDowell:And of course, things, it will not surprise you learn go in a bit of a horror direction. I don't think this is as sharp or as original as some of Peele's own films. I don't think it's up there with like Get Out but I do think it's got some really interesting ideas and I think it gets in some quite cool stuff or some quite powerful stuff about you know who takes the physical risks in for example football and who reaps the monetary rewards in something like football and how does that work and is that fair and everything else so there's some you know not terribly original criticisms of the game and the way it's played but nevertheless pretty powerful and and pretty long-standing ones so um yeah i thought it was i thought it was good but not great i do think uh tarik withers who plays cameron himself is a real find in the lead role i think he's he's really intense really committed you know obviously can do all the physical stuff and make that look convincing but but also just gets into this sort of completely kind of half fascinated half terrified state very well a guy who has all the reason in the world to be confident in himself but is also aware that he's a small fish in a very big pond so you know it's a it's a really fine line to walk and i think he does pretty well but

1:29:22Chris Hewitt:but yeah an odd film overall interestingly the reviews have not been stellar for this movie but we've given it four stars Ollie Richards gave us four stars would you stand to help us?

1:29:36Malcolm McDowell:I can see that I mean look I do see that in terms of just the sheer style of it and the fact that it does have something to say and it is also really scary but I think I'd probably be more on the three side myself just because I didn't think it was quite as sharp as I wanted it to be

1:29:51Chris Hewitt:Alright well we've given it four four stars then for him Alright one last movie to finish off and it's my old mucker my old pal He doesn't know I exist, but I love him. He's my Taylor Swift. If Shane Black walked in to Lely Empire offices or Bauer Radio and there were little excited texts went around going, Shane Black's in the building, I would be the one stalking him from 10, 15 yards. I believe you. like Jimbo. So anyway, Shane Black is back, back, back. And he's back with Play Dirty, which could be the first in a new franchise, Helen, maybe, hopefully.

1:30:32Malcolm McDowell:It could be, right? Because it's based on Parker, who's a sort of, both a ruthless and a gentleman thief, if that's possible to combine. So this is based on the novels by, it's Donald E. Westlake, isn't it?

1:30:45Chris Hewitt:Yes, Richard Stark is the pen name, but Donald E. Westlake

1:30:48Malcolm McDowell:is the actual guy. And it's been adapted by Black himself, who also, of course, directs. Mark Wahlberg is playing Parker. And we basically meet him at the beginning of the film in a big heist, which goes a little bit sideways. It's not a surprise. It's not a surprise it goes sideways. And many of his crew end up dead, and he ends up wounded and on the run and has to basically spend the rest of the film sorting all that shit out as a result, essentially. and he had to do that he sort of recruits some new people so you've got people like Lakeith Stanfield as Grofield Keegan-Michael Key as Ed Mackie Rosa Salazar as Zen who's I don't want to get into she's in Claire Lovering as Brenda who is Keegan-Michael Key's character's wife and yeah they're going to have to steal something very big from some very bad people in order to sort everything out and it won't surprise you to know Chris that it turns out to be more complicated than anticipated.

1:31:51Chris Hewitt:Oh, I thought you were going to say it's at Christmas.

1:31:52Malcolm McDowell:It is at Christmas. It's also at Christmas.

1:31:55Chris Hewitt:It is more complicated than it seems at first.

1:31:58Malcolm McDowell:Yeah. I had a lot of fun with this because I too love a bit of Shane Black. And I too like a heist gone wrong or right. I'm open to either way in fiction, if not in real life. And I'm also a big fan of snappy dialogue and people being unfeasibly witty. And that's very much the case here. that's all great my big note about this film and I've already texted you back and forth about this when we were watching it

1:32:25Chris Hewitt:that's my note

1:32:26Malcolm McDowell:yeah it's basically that's the note there are two particular action sequences in this film that are heavy on the CGI VFX and the CGI is not of the very highest tip top quality

1:32:40Chris Hewitt:it doesn't pass muster

1:32:41Malcolm McDowell:it does not pass muster and it is so distracting from everything else that's going on and you're just like why why did this have to happen? Do miniatures not exist? What can nothing be done to stop these streamers from leaning on and then underfunding VFX studios for this kind of work? I just didn't like that. And I was having such a nice time otherwise that it really irritated me more than it otherwise might have done, you know?

1:33:09Chris Hewitt:I don't know. We don't exactly know what happened. Maybe they ran out of time. Maybe they didn't have enough money. But there's some, And I really, really like all the action sequences that feel real world and grounded in this movie. When it becomes a little bit more fantastical, then it really does struggle.

1:33:27Malcolm McDowell:It's really distracting. And I was, like I say, having a great time otherwise. So, look, it's by no means a disaster or anything. I haven't even mentioned, by the way, half the cast. You've got people in there like Gretchen Mull and Thomas Jane and Tony Shalhoub. You know, Nat Wolfe is in there.

1:33:42Chris Hewitt:One of the Wolves, yeah.

1:33:44Malcolm McDowell:Chuck Woody-Awoogie. like great great people really really good like faces you know good faces as well and then just all this mess in the middle of it oh yeah but don't let that but don't yeah this is a very

1:33:57Chris Hewitt:very solid very entertaining shane black flick he co-wrote it it's it's full of shane black witticisms and uh hard-boiled characters and situations and uh sardonic dialogue and all the stuff you love from shane black movies uh is it as good as the nice guys or kiss kiss bang bang no for me it isn't but is it better than The Predator yes it is for me which is a good thing and I would love to see Black and Wahlberg do this again Parker is a character who has had a very very complicated relationship on the big screen there have been Parker adaptations that haven't been official Parker adaptations because Donaldi Westlake essentially didn't want to license the rights to anyone unless they were prepared to make lots of Parker movies so Point Blank for example is a Parker movie in all but name, but it isn't officially.

1:34:47Chris Hewitt:It isn't officially so. The Mel Gibson film, Payback, he's Porter in that, not Parker. There's only been a couple of actual Parker adaptations, one of which starred Jason Statham a few years ago. Parker. It's actually called Parker. Yeah, exactly. And, you know, so it's never quite clicked into franchise being. I hope that this is the one. This was originally written as a reunion of Black and Robert Downey Jr. who wrote the idea was that the Downey would play Parker for whatever reason I'm guessing it was Marvel related I'm guessing it was Doctor Doom related that that didn't happen Wahlberg he gets a lot of shit Wahlberg he's a good actor he's a good action hero he's good in this and he's very very good in this indeed because Parker's not the he's not as wise cracky as you think he might be this is a he's a serious dude who will kill you as soon as to look at you and he's an interesting chap to spend some time with, I have to say.

1:35:44Chris Hewitt:And I'd be excited to see another one of these in two or three years' time. But for the time being, three stars, I think is absolutely fair. Three stars then for Play Dirty, which is on Prime Video this week. Everything else we talked about is in cinemas, but that one is on Prime Video. We should also mention this week, we haven't seen it yet, but apparently it's fantastic, Catherine Bigelow's fun knockabout comedy, A House of Dynamite. Which is about what might happen if a rogue actor, not an actor like Mark Wahlberg or Dwayne Johnson, but a rogue state decided to fire a nuclear missile at America.

1:36:26Chris Hewitt:It's fun, shits and giggles for all the family. Lads in cinemas right now this weekend, select the cinemas around the country and then it will be on Netflix in a couple of weeks time. That's when we'll delve into it deeply. But yeah, from what I hear, it's brilliant. but not a popcorn muncher. But anyway, listen, before we finish off the podcast, shall we have Harris Dickinson?

1:36:47Malcolm McDowell:Yes.

1:36:48Chris Hewitt:Okay, well, let's have Harris Dickinson. So whenever I was away recently, John Nugent sat down with Harris Dickinson to talk about Urchin and making his directorial debut. And did he talk about the Beatles? I don't know. We're about to find out. I haven't heard this. I hear it's good. Enjoy.

1:37:05Benny Safdie:We're thrilled to have on the InPod podcast, Harris Dickinson. How are you, sir?

1:37:08Chris Hewitt:Hello.

1:37:09Benny Safdie:Good. How are you? yeah very good thank you thanks for having me thank you for being here uh and we're talking about your your directorial debut urchin yeah congratulations on that i love the film i can't stop thinking about it thank you when did you see it i saw it in can actually oh nice back in may good set of an audience yeah and it's it's been on my mind ever since it's like yeah amazing piece of work thanks so much and you your uk premiere was a couple of days ago was it yeah yeah a few days ago yeah it was it was a lovely evening I mean yeah we had seven screens seven intros it was good really you were just dashing between screens yeah yeah yeah um yeah I'd never done that before I'd never like popped into so many different screens it was cool and made me think when I was a kid we used to go to uh the cine world in Enfield and we were just bought between screens like yeah yeah just stupid kids but um yeah it was nice all my family were there all my friends were there a lot of cast and crew it felt uh felt very meaningful actually that's amazing yeah was it a late night was it like a big night or not really i was i was kind of tired at the end of it it was a long day so i got i didn't i didn't like stay out late late and i had work the next day so I had to try and conserve some energy but um yeah I mean it was pretty late yeah and how was the world premiere was at Cannes so what was that like was that a nerve-wracking experience that's such a whirlwind that festival isn't it it's always yeah quite hectic like what was your yeah what was your experience yeah I mean I so I'd been to Cannes with Triangle and then I went back to Cannes two years prior to the film getting made to try and get finance for it and that was quite an experience of kind of relentless, ultimately me just begging for money, you know, five, six times a day, different meetings with financiers and stuff.

1:39:09Benny Safdie:So that kind of also helped me find the film of it as well because you're having to explain it and convince people of it. But also people are hungover and tired and don't really want to be there and don't really kind of care about the film. and so it's an interesting exercise because you're like yeah, enthusiasm where's Finn? So then that was that and then yeah, to be back there a couple of years later it meant a lot I mean, it was probably the most nervous I've ever been for something to share the film that you've you know, made so personally is a weird thing very vulnerable but it went well, people got behind it The room was warm.

1:39:57Benny Safdie:Response was good. Frank won best actor. You really don't expect to even get in, let alone to have that kind of reception. So, yeah, grateful to say the least. And now it's about to be out into the world. How does that feel? I mean, how long has this journey been for you? How long have you been thinking about it? In 2025, approaching 26, what, five, six, six years maybe? Yeah. Yeah. It's a strange one. I'm very ready to get it out in the world. I'm very, you know, proud of it and happy to stand behind it. And I think that I speak for everyone that made the film as well in the sense that we're really proud of the work we all did on it.

1:40:40So it's nice to kind of get it out.

1:40:42Benny Safdie:But you never know responses and you can't control responses. So that's also another element of fear. It's like, you know, people's perception of it and people's experience with it. it's always going to be different and never across the board positive so yeah it's it's out of my hands you know yeah but i well from what i've seen people have loved it and you know it's got it's i think it's building a real like fan base like what what was the where did you start how was the writing process for something like this with like a really complex character like mike Frank Delaney's character? I think I just knew it had to try and tackle a lot of things at once and I was really intrigued about the cyclical element of it and how we fall back into things and consequence and testing the audience's tolerance of the character and how much they'll kind of stay with him.

1:41:37Benny Safdie:Trying to keep it about the individual, not the institution. You know, refocusing that side of it to humanize the person experiencing it and not make it about too many, um, um, yeah, not too many institutional elements, you know, and keep it about him and just really stay with someone. And, and despite all of the poor decisions they make and missteps they make, you know, how, how much can we relate to them and love them? And then, yeah, kind of welcoming in different voices from different fields was important to really, you know, get behind the issues that we're tackling and understand them fully and investigate them fully.

1:42:25Benny Safdie:And then it meant that we could kind of depart from the rigidity of that and move into something a little more, you know, cinematic. and yeah. That's really interesting, especially the stuff about like the tolerance of the audience. That's such a, because Mike, this character, does a lot of things that might challenge the audience, but you sort of keep a very empathetic eye all the way through. Like how did you find that balance? I think it's like, if we think about someone going through what Mike goes through, there's a lot of coping mechanisms are based around like optimism and humour and so I think it was a kind of vital part of the journey and I also just think characters like this deserve humour and deserve levity and deserve a fuller sort of picture and not just to be victims of circumstance I think we genuinely had to hope and believe that there was potential for change, transformation, connection and kind of each new section of the film I saw it as like episodic you know like the street section the hotel section the Andrea and her friend section and then ultimately back to where he started and when we started to look at it like that it meant that we were freed of any like heavy-handed storytelling or labored themes like we could kind of just focus on Mike trying to progress to the next part like an odyssey yeah was it an odyssey for you behind the camera what was your journey as a director like what kind of set did you run I mean we were lucky in the sense that we had amazing we spent a lot of time my producer and I just really talking about the kind of you know the importance of like a certain type of personality on set like it's very easily tips into to one direction it can be you know it can be loud it can be quite chaotic and i think that we we worked really hard in making sure everyone really understood the film we were trying to make and you know in prep we all watch films together and we did it every week and we spoke about them and i don't know it was just a it was just like a loving environment and there was encouragement and but like focus as well like real um focus from everyone and i think that uh that has to be like navigated delicately because you want people to enjoy it but ultimately it's like the stakes of it are high you know it's like it's a lot of money to make films and it's a lot of effort and a lot of a lot of labor and you kind of have to take that seriously as well so I think that was a big realization for us and then in terms of like the actual acting I know that the best times I've had on set is when I feel very comfortable I feel supported and so we had a lot of rehearsals and we also just made sure that the set and the scenes felt very sacred and um you know we pushed it we really pushed it and we made sure we we didn't move on until we got it and I think once we started to get to a certain level of course it's not perfect and you look back and you wish you could have done things and you learn so much and I'm still learning but yeah we we all wanted to be there and we all wanted to aim high regardless of the outcome yeah yeah and you you're running around London it's all like on location in London more or less and yeah yeah I mean I stupidly wrote too many locations and too many characters but no one told me that was a that was a harder you know part of it um we had a five-week shoot and we had maybe 40 locations or something so yeah there were days where we were moving three times and trying to resettle into new locations but uh ultimately there were days like that and there were days where we were just like for example in the hotel or we were in you know mike's room for four days or something so it felt like yeah there was kind of a polarity in terms of the energy but um i don't know it was nice because we i know london very well seeing like the locations i'd imagined writing the script more often than not were the ones we filmed at so it felt like a nice in your mind when you write the thing you end up there it's it's easier and that hotel you mentioned is that the one that you used to work at yeah yeah so I worked there for like three years and then I I don't know why I didn't think about just shooting there because when we were looking for hotels we looked at so many options and I said hang on why don't we just go to the one that I worked at where I wrote it around and then our uh our chef advisor and the guy that taught Frank to cook a little bit Pedro was the head chef at the time when I worked at the hotel so I brought him back and then when we were back in the hotel me and him had this moment of like oh man we're back you know we were both looking at each other in the kitchen like oh this is this is mad um it's quite surreal yeah it was surreal yeah yeah oh that's so cool um And, yeah, what kind of life, I mean, you touched on this a bit, but, like, what kind of life do you think the film will take?

1:48:07Benny Safdie:Like you say, it's out of your hands. Have you thought about, like, yeah, its future beyond you? Like sequels. Urchin 1, 2, 3, 3, 3. No, it's funny, though, when I joke about the sequels, but so many people have been like, oh, I want to see a story about Mary and Nathan. I want to see a story about the couple in the square. So that's good. It means that we tapped into Little World. But it's out of my control. I just hope that it resonates. I mean, doing Q &As and starting to talk about it with people and starting to get audience reactions is nice because you kind of reaffirms the things you were going for and people are picking up on the ideas and the themes that we were trying to hash out.

1:48:58Benny Safdie:And also what matters to me is that it's resonating with people that have been through it as well. And I think a lot of people have recognised that, either within themselves or people that are close to them that have gone through similar struggles. So the accuracy of that is important to me and the feeling that that evokes is important to me. And I think that so far it's been in the right direction. But yeah, who knows? you you like with urchin and then like your films in acting roles like baby girl or scrapper or triangle of sadness these are all such different and such interesting films and i'm like i'm curious like where your taste comes from like where did you learn your like film taste i mean where does anyone learn their film taste i don't know i think it's just about your own curiosity isn't it i think what you're drawn to I don't know what the answer is to that other than you kind of just follow what you're interested in and you find a film where you can keep going I don't know, my mum and my dad aren't necessarily like cinephiles but they definitely put me on to the Mike Lees and the Ken Loachies quite young, I think they realised that I was interested in that kind of drama and that kind of like relatability to people that we know and stuff so maybe that was where it started but then yeah i'm also really into like more fantasy and more like absurdist films so yeah i'm like i like escapist cinema too so i don't know yeah it's still evolving i still feel like so many things we need to catch up on that you never yeah you can never see it all speaking of um baby girl like i have to ask my girlfriend has a t-shirt with a glass of milk on it.

1:50:45Benny Safdie:Oh yeah, they did the merch. They did the merch, yeah. And yeah, that's a film that's had quite a life since it came out. I don't know, do you have a favourite response to that? Has anyone, any fan been a bit weird about it or interesting or unusual? No, I went for dinner with my brother and he got the waiter to bring a glass of milk over and I was just like, what are you doing? and also and we were in a thai restaurant so it looked like i couldn't handle the heat of thai food and that was more embarrassing than yeah i was like oh yeah yeah yeah i mean yeah you're going to be having glasses of milk ordered to you for your rest of your life i feel um bring it on um just finally i think i'm nearly out of time but i did want to ask because i've been learning Don't Let Me Down on the piano.

1:51:37Benny Safdie:Okay. Just for fun. But obviously you have to do it. Top video? Absolutely not. No, no, that's just for me. Then I don't believe you. Come around, I'll show you. But you've got to do it professionally, obviously. Semi-professionally. Semi-professionally. You're playing John Lennon. Do you have a favourite Beatles song you like to play at this point? Are you not at that stage yet? Oh, no. We've been rehearsing for like a year. definitely at that stage yeah um i don't know i mean a lot of the pepper stuff is amazing um a lot of the early stuff you know if i cry um yeah there's too many man i'm learning like 20 plus songs at the moment i don't know my head's scrambled yeah yeah wow yeah well good luck with that i can't wait to see it I mean like everyone I'm a huge Beatles fan so yeah it's going to be amazing but yeah Urchin is an incredible piece of work and everyone should see it so Harris Dickinson thank you very much

1:52:42Chris Hewitt:Okay that was Harris Dickinson talking to John Nugent about Urchin which is in cinemas right now I will say because I overbooked massively for this week's show there are two interview specials wending their way towards you SAP one is dedicated to him in which Jamie Graham sat down with Justin Tipping and the film stars Marlon Wayans and Tyreek Withers so that will be out on its own as well the other one is dedicated to Paul Greengrass as The Lost Bus which hits Apple TV Plus this weekend is his best film in ages I wasn't here when you guys refuted on the show it's fantastic we gave it three I would like to burn that review to the ground it is terrific it's terrific this film

1:53:23John Nugent:Helen gave it three Helen!

1:53:26Chris Hewitt:what the fuck are you doing? anyway this interview special features me talking to Paul Greengrass the film's director and it stars Matthew McConaughey and America Ferreira so that will be up sometime around this one as well I have a lot of editing to do in the next 24 hours or so but it shall be done COVID be damned but I just wanted to let you know that that is happening so keep him peeled for Lowe's and in one case keep him Jordan peeled for Lowe's although he's not on that actual episode anyway join us next week for more overbooked film related fun when we'll be joined by Robert Aramayo the star of the excellent new British movie I Swear oh yeah and three members of the cast of Tron Aries Gillian Anderson who I think is back on the podcast for the first time since James bored her shitless with some dreadful small talk and we'll also be joined by Greta Lee and Jodie Turner-Smith.

1:54:30Chris Hewitt:So that is exciting. What a time to be alive. But until then, until we meet again, until a suspicious occasion when I will hopefully be back in the studio and COVID-free, it is time to say goodbye to my two colleagues of such lethal cunning. Goodbye, James Dyer, or should I call you, what's your D &D name? Oh, I am Sir John DeLuther.

1:54:52John Nugent:See what I did there? Helen

1:54:57Chris Hewitt:what's your D &D name? Skahach

1:55:01John Nugent:sorry Helen Helen appears to have a cold she's clearing her throat what was the name of your character Helen? Helen have you tested for COVID-19 are you okay?

1:55:07Malcolm McDowell:she's the legendary Celtic trainer who trained Cú Hullan what class is she? she's a wood elf fighter of course she is

1:55:15Chris Hewitt:wow okay well it's time for Fendrack to Vertical to get Vertical and kick some ass in D &D I have no idea what the hell I'm doing I mean, we will update you on next week's show. There may be blood on the walls. But in the meantime, thanks so much for listening. See you next week. Bye-bye.