Wish You Well (ft. guests Greta Lee & Jodie Turner-Smith; Robert Aramayo; Gillian Anderson)

34:08Wonderful to see you again. That was so fun. Thank you. It's nice to see your eyebrows. I've got to tell you I'm kind of exaggerating I don't have I don't have much brow No but they look soft Joey Toy has drawn these on Really good I'm telling you It's more so getting whoopee Than a real brow No no no It's really good Well Nice to see you You too Until next time Yes Until next time Thank you Until next rose Okay that was Greta Lee And Jodie Turner-Smith And we will be talking about Tron Aries Later on in the show But also We'll have Gillian Anderson Hurrah That's exciting isn't it Yeah it is Maybe we'll put her at the end.

34:42Okay. But Robert Arameo second. Brilliant. Love it. Sandwich. All right. Movie news. What has been happening and why has it been happening? So little. Well, you were speaking just now of your deep and abiding love for some reason for Ocean's 13. It's just fucking great. Ocean's 14. Oh. Apparently the budget has been signed off. Yes. Brad, George, Julia could all be back and they could be shooting as soon as next year. That is exciting. You didn't mention Matt and Dawn. I didn't, but I thought that was implied. I didn't see them in the headline of the piece that I looked at, I'll be honest. Oh, Helen, you've done little research.

35:22No research. Yes, due diligence is not your middle name. I rewatched Ocean's Eleven on the weekend. Did you? Why? Yes, I did. I just fancied it. Because it's a good movie. Because it's a fucking great movie. One of the best movies of the 21st century. Yeah, absolutely loved it. So I'm primed for it. The unfortunate thing is I probably now need to re-watch 12 and 13 before I go into this. But, you know. There's nothing unfortunate about that. It's one of the great trilogies. Is it though? It very much is. It very much is. Ocean's 13 is just a glorious crowd pleaser. It's so good. And you know Ocean's 12.

36:00Takes risks. Does unusual things that a sequel shouldn't do. Like not be good.

36:07I admire that I embrace that it's the quantumania in many ways of the Oceans franchise I kind of love it I kind of love Oceans 12 I love that it has a plot development where Julia Roberts' character has to pretend to be Julia Roberts yeah I mean in terms of narrative swings that is one of the big ones it's one of the big ones because she's in a room with someone who looks a lot like Matt Damon but they never come with her that yeah but also Jeremy Renner is in Wake Up Dead Man a universe in which Jeremy Renner also exists that's right that's true I didn't ask Ryan Johnston about that darn it I need to get back in that room with him right now okay anyway so Ocean's 14 there's been talk of it for a while now and George Clooney is doing the rounds he'll be talking tonight to Helen along with Adam Sandler for which I wish her well I mean, honestly, I might fall down the stairs and break my neck off my way.

37:07I hope you don't. I hope you don't do that. Because that would be... Bad. Bad. That would be bad. And they'd need someone to step in at the last minute to replace you. And I can't think of anyone who might do that. Hmm. Helen, can you stick around after the podcast? I just need to talk to you about something urgent and pressing. At the top of these stairs. At the top of these stairs. Helen, have you seen my venomous snake? Well, I know that wouldn't happen because there is no way you'd use a snake as a murder weapon. There's no way. No. There's no way. Anyway, Ocean's 14. Apparently it is happening.

37:46It is on its way. George Clooney's been doing the rounds, talking about Jay Kelly, and he said that the budget has been signed off, by which I choose to interpret as he and Brad and Julia and Don Cheadle and Matt Damon have pulled a heist. that's the only thing that would really pay for their salaries I guess yeah because thinking about this like that's going to be a lot of money and they're going to need some guarantees at the box office and what better way to do that than by hitting the Bellagio I agree yeah and the MGM Grand and the MGM Grand and the other one and I literally watched it two days ago it's the Mirage the Mirage okay there we go I knew that all of Terry Benedict's casinos so this is exciting Ocean's 14 it is I don't know who the rest of the cast is going to be I've got an idea Adam Sandler they love each other now well you can ask him I will yeah you're fucking pushing it can I show some let's be honest quite on brand news that the weekend box office in the US was I won't say dominated but did very well the life of a showgirl Taylor Swift the official release party of a life of a showgirl made 46 million dollars in its opening weekend at the box office.

39:01It's less than the billion that you predicted for the Aries Tour film, isn't it? Hey, hey, hey. The Aries Tour ultimately made quarter of a billion. It made 260 million. That's a big difference. That's almost a billion. It's not bad, though, right? It's not almost. It's one quarter of a billion. Can we say, like, so this official release party of a showgirl thing, 46 million dollars. That film, which is 89 minutes long, consists of the music video to The Fate of Ophelia, like the first single she released. and then the lyric videos to the other songs of the album which are just the song playing and the lyrics on the screen and then these little kind of track by track little she does like a little what was it like 20 second or something introduction to each track that is the whole thing so basically they paid collectively 46 million dollars worldwide to sit and listen to the album in the cinema when they say lay you mean you it was exclusively me when you watched Ocean's Eleven it was an in-flight movie wasn't it because you flew over to the States I pulled off a heist with the Bellagio and the Mirage and this is what I spent on yeah to go and spend it on that well more power to your elbow thank you and I presume now that this last show girl yes okay good is your favorite American film of 2000 and sure why not 2000 and thousand what is happening when it's you don't say anything else you just say 2000 but I kept talking so I needed to I needed to style it out.

40:27Hopefully no one noticed. No one noticed. Yeah. No one noticed. All right. Thanks, James. You're welcome. That Taylor Swift's box office correspondent update. You're welcome. Please do keep us updated on Taylor Swift's fast fortune and how it continues to expand at an exponential rate. God bless her. I hope she's going to be okay. Yeah, I think she'll be all right. There was a bit of casting news. Oh, okay. Yeah. So the Beatles, a four-film cinematic event, which I hope is not the title, have announced the first piece of, I believe, of non-Beatle casting. Now, I feel like they're shooting or about to shoot, so they have more, I'm pretty sure.

41:04So I suspect this is going to be like the first of many announcements. Yeah. But Saoirse Ronan will be playing Linda McCartney, which makes this a faux reunion for anyone keeping track, because that's the film where she and Paul Meskel... No, it's a real reunion. No, faux... Oh, I see. Oh, I see. There we go. the film FOE came out a couple of years ago and she and Meskel starred in that together and became a movie that they're in that people will see and this is a movie that they're in that people might actually see because also that one was not that great if I'm honest like they're both good they're never bad but like the film was just okay anyway the important thing that came out of it was friendship and so now they get to work together again with the Beatles yes so this is Linda McCartney Linda McCartney Eastman of course indeed a photographer musician in her own right a very important figure in Paul's life yes sorry what I was just laughing at the musician in her own right business but yes vegan sausage entrepreneur vegan entrepreneur generally early vegan pioneer yeah with the emphasis heavily on pie but she's really you know Linda McCartney huge huge figure of course there's lots of rumors going around that other casting is imminent and that's why has been heavily linked with Yoko Ono for example.

42:23She denied it but months ago. Yes. She is amazing. But every single person who's in these movies has denied their cast in a time they were cast. That's true. It's almost like there's an ironclad NDA. But this is yeah I'm a huge Beatles fan big Sam Mendes fan. I am intrigued by this. I still don't know how these are going to play out. No. I mean, just the engineering involved in shooting this story, the four different stories actually, linking in the way they have to link, covering even the highlights only is like an insane task. Yeah. Because there were a lot of iconic moments that people all over the world know.

43:07I mean I'm not a Beatles diehard but I still know about you know Beatlemania and what the Ed Sullivan show and like much much later performing on the roof of the Apple building and the Shea Stadium and like all of these kind of moments and like I know nothing about the Beatles so I'm already kind of coming into this with expectations God help the Beatles fans who are going into this looking for you know all of their iconic key moments it's going to be fascinating and you don't want it to be in hagiography you don't want it to be four of those you want it to actually show these guys who were hugely flawed as hugely flawed human beings you know one of the reasons why I think why people really really loved the Peter Jackson get back apart from the fact we got to see these four legends do their thing was because of those underlying tensions and yes also you did also want to see those moments where John and Paul were genuinely friendly towards each other you could see you could see the chemistry and the talent and just the and also the history I think those years as essentially teenagers and very early 20s in Hamburg wasn't it like that that's a key part of the story as well it probably won't be something that all four films will spend a lot of time on but like that's fascinating these young men really young thrust into a position that no one in the world maybe barring Elvis had ever been in before and having to kind of go through that together it's kind of incredible if anybody out there saw the Paul McCartney photography exhibition at the National Portrait Gallery the other year like that gave me a real sense of or not not a real sense but it gave me a real got me really interested in knowing more about them as people and seeing what they were like what it was like going through all of that because it really was insane absolutely insane very much insane maniac oh my god I'm intrigued to see where it ends as well does it end when they split up it might be the best place to end it it might be but maybe you have a different ending for all four, you know.

45:05Maybe you do. Two endings kind of definitive and two endings thankfully ongoing. Yeah. The frog chorus. I don't know that you need to spend a lot of time on that. I think I want an entire movie dedicated to the frog chorus. Aye, aye. Bow, bow, bow. Aye, aye. Bow, bow, Aye, aye. Bow, bow, bow, bow, bow, bow, bow, bow, bow, bow,

45:33No one will mistake that. The rock song is fine. All right, let's move on. More news, more news. Let's talk Michael Mann. I'm surprised it wasn't fucking Taylor Swift. Well, funnily enough, Michael Mann is directing Taylor Swift in a new music video. That's not true. He's going to be doing Heat 2. It's actually happening. And Leonardo DiCaprio is apparently circling a role in that. Now, rumor is that he was attached to another project, but he dropped out of that because, as he said to himself, don't let yourself get attached to anything you're not willing to walk out on in 30 seconds, if you feel Heat 2 around the corner.

46:04so it's happening that was laboured but I liked it thank you should we interrupt maybe not so much maybe not so much interrupt more of intervene stage and intervention yes that would be that would be 100 % the way to go but yeah so this is a thing interesting I'm open to that that's alright yeah I've not read have you read the book I haven't read the book I have not read the book no I've watched Heat more than once I feel like that's enough yeah I don't need to also read the book. I am not a man. Therefore, there can be, it's allowed for there to be a limit to my heat. Women are allowed to love heat.

46:40Absolutely, women are because it's an incredibly good film. I'm not obsessed with it in the same way that a lot of men are. I'm not obsessed with it. It's one of those movies. For me, heat is the juice. It's like in the same breath as Die Hard, isn't it? And The Godfather. No, I would put Die Hard in a separate category because I love it with all my heart. Oh, I see. But I would put this in the same category as The Godfather. As in it becomes the sort of like the touchstone for a it's like it's a shibboleth it's a shibboleth yeah you love The Godfather I love The Godfather do you love Heat I love Heat it's a film bro film it is is what I'm saying with no disrespect to the film just disrespect to maybe some of the film bros wow sorry no it's okay but I've seen it more than once and it's a long film so that's not a small commitment it's yeah it's nearly nearly three hours Heat 2 in case you're wondering because I have read the book is both prequel and sequel in the Godfather 2 tradition.

47:37Oh my God. That's right. So it tells the story of a younger Vincent Hanna and a younger Neil Macaulay when they were in Chicago, but also a younger Chris Scheherlis, which is the Fal Kilmer character from the first movie. Vincent Hanna, of course, being Al Pacino and Neil Macaulay being Robert De Niro. And that's the prequel part. So they're all in Chicago and there's a bad man that they all get involved with to some degree or other. And then there's a sequel component as well where Chris Shaheer, after the offense of that movie, goes abroad and has an adventure and becomes a bit of a kick-ass action hero type person.

48:20And then comes back to Los Angeles a few years later and has another run-in with Vincent Hanna. so Leo apparently is circling Chris Chahirlis in this okay and there's been talk for a long time that Michael Mann wants Adam Driver to play Neil Macaulay who would obviously be younger than De Niro is in heat yeah I was just figuring that out because DiCaprio is probably older I think DiCaprio DiCaprio's now 50 right or 50-ish he's in the ballpark he's definitely 50-ish yeah DiCaprio is about to be 51 He's about to be 51. So he's 50. Yes, no, but like he's literally like days away from his 51st birthday.

49:02When's his 51st birthday? 11th of November. Oh, days. Okay, a month. One single month. You're quibbling. I'm agreeing with you. You're still quibbling with me. Okay, good, good, good. Well, listen, you know, I'm not the one interviewing Adam Saler tonight. Listen, I wish you well. I wish you well. Anyway, so he's apparently certainly not. and Michael Mann has said that he would like Timmy Two Meats to play Al Pacino or rather Vincent Hanna but I don't know I don't see that one I think he's too young I think he's too young for that even though he is in his late 20s so I don't know maybe it'll work out but apparently so one of the other big stories about Heat 2 is that it has moved from Warner Brothers who quibbled at the budget which apparently is fast like breaking into the Bellagio MGM Grand Mirage fast and And it's now with United Artists who have said that they will pony up the cash.

49:56Wasn't the original Ocean's Eleven for like 120 million? So that wouldn't pay for Heat 2, I'm guessing. That is right. That was the haul. Yeah, wasn't it? It was about 120 million. Imagine that's why Danny Ocean was trying to make the save one. Steal all that money. I'm such a film bro. I need to see Heat 2. I'm going to finance this if it kills me. If I have to pull off the biggest casino heist in Vegas history, I'll fucking do it. I'm going to finance like two-thirds of it with this one heist. And then presumably that's what Oceans 12 and 13 are about. I guess so. Finding the rest of the budget.

50:28Finding the rest of the budget for Heat 2. That's it. All right. Well, listen, I'm excited about that. Although cautiously so because I love Michael Mann, but I think it's fair to say he hasn't been firing all cylinders for a while. And even though the book is good, can he find the brio that he had back in 1995? And crucially, is there going to be urine in the swimming pool? Oh, no. No, because it doesn't exist. It does exist. Pissing in the pool is a real thing. It's not. It is. Okay. Anything else you want to talk about real quick before we move on? I mean, very quickly, I would say that we've known for a while that Tom Holland is going to be in an adaptation of John Grisham's The Partner, but that's now going to be directed by Jason Bateman.

51:09Jason Bateman? Which is an interesting development. He's directed a few things. He directed, I think, some episodes of Ozark. He's recently did Black Rabbit with Jude Law on Netflix TV shows, cover them on a pilot TV podcast. B, he directed some episodes of that, so now he's going to be directing Tom Holland, not my roofer or the historian, but Spider-Man. Or indeed the former Ipswich Town footballer. I say former, he may still be playing for them, but I haven't been keeping up on his career, so I don't know. But well done to everybody involved with that. One last thing I want to say, apart from the fact that they are making a film about the making of Rocky called I Play Rocky, in which Anthony Ippolito has signed on to play Sylvester Stallone.

51:44Stephen James is going to play Carl Weathers, and now Matt Dillon has signed on to play Frank Stallone Sr. in that film, which will be directed by Peter Farrelly and is a real film that is actually happening. So that's exciting for everybody. I'm going to warn people not to watch the trailer for Ballad of a Small Player, which hit the internet just the other day. It's Edward Berger's new film. He's the director of All Quiet on the Western Front and Conclave. This is going to be a big deal. An awards season stars Colin Farrell as a degenerate gambler who is basically gambling his life away in a casino in Macau.

52:25He is hitting rock bottom repeatedly, this guy. I've seen the film. I don't think I signed an NDA, so I think I can say that it's really, really good and Colin Farrell is fantastic in it, as is Tilda Swinton, as is Fala Chen. Great performances throughout. What I would say to you is that there is a big reveal that is bigly revealed in the trailer after about 40 seconds. So it's not the film's major reveal, but it is a major reveal. And had I known this reveal going into the film, it would have diminished my enjoyment of the film. So I'm saying to you now, as a public service announcement, go see Ballad of a Small Player when it opens in cinemas and then hits Netflix a few weeks after that.

53:07But do not watch the trailer. Okay. Shall we have Robert Aramau? Let's. Let's do that. He is the star of a new British film called I Swear, which is one of the best British films of the year. It is a real-life film about a man called John Davidson who was diagnosed with Tourette's syndrome. And this is a film that charts his life and life with Tourette's and how he became a Tourette's campaigner. And Robert Arameo, who also plays Elrond in the Rings of Power television show. This is quite the one-two punch of performances. And we sent Alex Godfrey, he was evangelical about this film. Correctly.

53:48He loves this film to death. And we sent him along to talk to Robert Arameo, I think on Zoom. So we didn't send him along, he just stayed in his kitchen. Alex probably isn't even wearing pants during this interview. I want you to have the mental image in your head as you listen to this. Do please enjoy. Well, not anymore. Robert Arameo, thank you so much for joining us on the Empire Podcast. Yeah, I mean, you know I absolutely love this film to death. As I told you when I met you, I spoke to you for the feature we did in the mag. Do you know what? I just looked. It was first of July that we met, which was like, I don't know, months and months and months ago.

54:26So, yeah, you were saying to me before we went on air that I was the first. Yeah. The first interview you did for it. And it's interesting because I feel like even though you filmed, I swear, last year, it felt like it was still raw. Yeah, it was my recollection of that meeting. We spent an hour together and it felt like you were sort of you had sort of a nervous energy about it still. And you didn't know what the world was going to make of the film and you hadn't spoken about it yet. So that is that a fair reflection of what it felt like? A hundred percent. Yeah, that's exactly how I felt about it.

55:02And I actually learned a lot. And it's you know, I'm very grateful for how awesome you are. But, you know, you were so generous when we were talking, but I'd learned a lot through that interview. and about my still my own nervousness around it and stuff it's a it's a very tricky um uh performance and film to speak about um and you know i feel a bit more equipped now uh but but back then yeah it's there you you were right in your assessment i think it was still it's still quite tricky well what's it been like since then because obviously i mean i told you how much i loved the film and I think I guess I was the first person outside of the whole circle who was telling me what I thought about it but I really really did love the film and I imagine you know I know you've been doing interviews since you've been to festivals you were was it TIFF you were at Toronto?

55:54I was at Toronto yeah yeah it went down really well there I know you did some press there and you've been doing it since um interviews Q &As all of that what has it been like for you now since that's been going on to see how well the film's being received and to be having so many interesting conversations with people about it yeah yeah it's it's really awesome um unexpected um but great um and i've had a lot of unexpected conversations in in in off the back of people seeing it people that i know my friends and stuff like that some friends have called me up and said like you know i don't have tourette's but i do have some kind of neurological, you know, neurodiversity that I want to tell you about.

56:39And because this movie spoke to my experience in some way as well. And I've been really shocked by that in a really, really nice way. You know, I just think that, you know, we just, we wanted to sort of as authentically as we can, as we could tell John's story and we all really care about John. and John really cares about education and people learning more about Tourette's. But there has been a lot of unexpected conversations that have come out of it, which are absolutely awesome. Yeah, I can imagine. I mean, it's that sort of film, isn't it, that inspires those sort of thoughts and feelings and conversations.

57:22And, you know, I should just tell just quickly for listeners who don't know, I swear written and directed so well by Kirk Jones is the biopic of John Davidson, who was diagnosed with Tourette's, I think he was 13. 13, yeah. Right, back in Scotland, when the world at large didn't really know about Tourette's and certainly didn't know what to do with it and how to help people who had it. And Tourette's, I think people who saw the BBC documentary about John at the time probably mostly took away the swearing because that was, you know, superficial most obvious uh tick but it comes with a whole umbrella of of of behaviors you know ocd uh adhd fatigue involuntary swearing physical ticking and the biopic takes takes us through most of john's life really from from his teen years up to to present day more or less earliest 50s now um when we spoke you told me that when the script came along you found it terrifying as a prospect what specifically what specifically about it scared you was it was it that it was going to be such uh a an uh sort of overwhelming performance to have to to master or was it sensitivities around trying to get it right yeah but i mean i mean both but really both but they're linked i mean like you know i felt as soon as i read it that the the the quote-unquote bad version was very easy to do you know that like that like that there was a lot of traps along the way that would be very easy to fall into yeah and so that I I knew that I needed to be on myself and um you know if I was going to do it that I was just going to you know it became my obsession um and I knew that that's the way it had to sort of go really in order to pursue it authentically and I didn't really have any idea how I was going to approach it not really I just I just I knew where to start but I didn't know where it would take me and I didn't know it would take me to a situation where I would where I started to think about tics yeah and to and Tourette's in in a sort of different way in terms of an actor working more around the environmental factors that influence a tick or you know the triggers the anxiety, the things that are always, the ADHD and OCD and intrusive thoughts the things that are constantly in that conversation, it's not just about ticks so that sort of presented itself to me very quickly and I learnt that through meeting lots and lots of different people who live with Tourette's in really different ways, you know, partners of people who live Tourette's, people who live with Tourette's, people who have, you know, kids with Tourette's.

1:00:18I met one guy who has Tourette's and his son has Tourette's also. So it's, you know, like just different circumstances, different situations. And I think that really helped me to just sort of like be like, okay, I'm going to have to be on myself and I'm going to have to just keep authenticity at the front of my mind. Well, one of the ways you did that was by spending so much time with John. I know you told me you spent a couple of months with him. You lived sort of down the road around the corner from him up in the garfields in Scotland. And I know some of it was you asking him questions and observing him.

1:00:52And a lot of it was just hanging out, getting to know him, watching the football, etc. And it's interesting because when we met back in July, I mean, I don't know if you'd ever underpacked that time you had with him. But you said to me, you know, maybe you felt like maybe he felt like he was in a bit of a Petri dish at times and maybe you got on his nerves. But I, you know, I spoke to John for an hour or so for the feature I wrote and I asked him about it. Yeah. I don't know if you've discussed this. I haven't, actually. But he said, I mean, I'm going to read out to you a quote that he said to me.

1:01:22He said the types of questions, in-depth questions that Rob would ask about, how it affects me, how it makes me feel when I'm out in public. He said. It was the sort of questions that most people might be scared to ask or might not be might not think were relevant. And he said it was almost like for the first time in many, many years that I was actually in therapy. He said, I felt like I was in therapy. And then he said, I would come away from being with Rob and I felt really good. Wow. Offered that up to me. So it was interesting to me that even though you were there, you know, in service to the film, as well as getting to know John and becoming his friend and getting what you needed to get from him to enhance your performance.

1:02:05it was as enriching or even more enriching for him just to have that time with you and he got a lot out of it and he was having conversations with you about Tourette's that he hadn't really had with most people before which found it really interesting yeah yeah yeah wow I didn't know he said that to you that's amazing um I uh I I think I will just say that that one of the things that me and Kirk have gained from this which is unexpected is these amazing relationships you You know, I love the shields. I love going. I was there a few weeks ago having steak pie with Dottie and John and Chris. You know, we didn't talk about the movie at all.

1:02:41It was amazing. And I feel very comfortable there because I spend so much time there and I miss them, you know. But I think that we did sort of access a level of conversation around because I was never really – the initial impulse is to be really interested in ticks. Of course it is. To be interested in what a tick is and why do you say F off? Why do you say to whatever, whatever the phrase is. That's the initial impulse. But actually, the thing that you need to learn about are all the other things, the way that light can affect ticks and Tourette's. and the way that light can affect Tourette's the way that you what you ate can affect Tourette's you know what I mean the circumstance your level of anxiety um and um you know there's just the situational stuff which is the stuff that's actually was way more interesting to me um because I knew that if I could get that right then I could build up a structure inside of myself and then the tick was not the issue it was more like right okay I'm in this room now what are the what what are the factors influencing how ticky I will be, you know?

1:03:53And, you know, that can be something like, I've had a really bad day. I'm going to be really ticky, you know, which is why at the end when he gets beaten up with the crowbar, obviously he's ticking in the hospital. And that happened because he would be, because his days, you know, the anxiety in his days has been through the roof, you know. But even small things like really bright lights or really loud noises, Like I wanted to learn about those things. So then I had a sort of, I don't know, like a roadmap inside of me that I could follow. Yeah. Well, you know, a part of that, something we didn't discuss last time, but I found really interesting as I watched the film again and spoke to John, is that I think one of the most incredible thing about your performance is that how you convey how exhausting having Tourette's is or can be you know it's I mean obviously it's it's a real physical workout for you as it is for you know for the likes of John all the time and I spoke to John about it and he said just just every day just him doing his job at the community center he works at he said every day he finishes about four o 'clock and he just feels completely burnt out yeah far beyond what a you know quote what was someone who doesn't have Tourette's would feel and watching you in the film it is physically exhausting but what I found really interesting about it is that you also communicate how I think how mentally exhausting it is for John because you know he's he's so I think hopefully less so now but certainly when he was a kid he had all this self-loathing he hated the fact that he was behaving in ways that you know he didn't want to be behaving in and there's a lot of frustration that comes with it And he's always sort of mentally beating himself up in the film here and there.

1:05:40And I think you do such a brilliant job of conveying that. I mean, I asked John about that and I asked Kirk about it. And they both said it was something that John was really, really keen to get across. He wanted viewers to see how knackering it is having. And you do that brilliantly. So I wanted to ask you about that. Yeah, I think what happens when I take over the character is in between the two, in between his youth and when I pick him up, his relationship to Tourette's has developed and changed. And there are, you know, like John went through a really, like, you know, things like John at the beginning of his condition wanted to, was physically with his fingers trying to stop his mouth from opening, you know.

1:06:29And then that developed into him biting a keychain. And then that developed into him biting the blue thing that he now carries with him all the time. And so I wanted to show that evolution. I also wanted to show that, like, you know, when he's a boy, it's the emergence of it. And it's racking his body. And it's awful and shocking. but when he's older he's now developed you know now at certain times he can acknowledge that it's getting in his way that you know it's something that he now has lived with for many years and so if he's trying to communicate with Tommy that he wants this job and that it's a tick it's getting in his way and it's annoying to him and I wanted to I wanted to make sure that we because I see that in John sometimes and likewise I also see where he has the ability to laugh at something that just came out of him as well so it was the relationship to to his Tourette's Syndrome that had changed as he's grown up that I was really keen to explore as well because that's a really interesting thing Yeah it's fascinating and it's It's incredible to see that on film.

1:07:53It's such a brilliant performance, and I know it was a very collaborative one. You worked, you got to know John really well for all that time, and you worked very closely with Kirk, feeding back to him what you were learning from John and other people who had Tourette's, and, you know, the script was, you know, was constantly being adapted to what was happening there in production and on set. And so I wanted to ask you, it's such a special way of working. And a lot of conventional films, I would say, maybe don't afford actors that experience and that luxury. And I wondered, above and beyond just containing to this experience and this performance on this film, how it has equipped you as an actor going forward and how it's served you and maybe how it's changed you as an actor.

1:08:46because it's a special thing that you went through. Yeah, it was. It was. It was the biggest challenge, but also the biggest gift of my life. And as an actor, the same. I hate improv. I hate improvisation. I don't enjoy doing it as an actor. I don't see myself as a writer. You know, what you want to do as an actor is pick up an amazing scene and go, wow, I can't wait to play that and bring out the intention and hopefully enrich it and elevate it and all the stuff that the great actors do. but this required something from me that I didn't think it's just not something that comes naturally to me it is is is the sort of spontaneity of it and but I knew that I knew that it goes back to what I was saying earlier really about building that system in that if I could commit to the rules and the structure that as I saw it um and and improve my knowledge to a certain degree that I would have to, at a certain point, just let go and allow whatever happens to happen.

1:09:49And, you know, you are not granted that ability in most films because it would be, you know, a structure is important. But, you know, I go back to what Paul says, who's John's really good friend. He says the only thing that is predictable about Tourette's is that it's unpredictable. yeah um and i he was one of the first people that i actually spoke to paul about tourette's um and that always sort of stuck with me and that you have to embrace the unpredictability of it in order to even have a chance at authentically portraying it yeah well i mean another thing that this experience has given you i think you mentioned a couple weeks ago that you would you saw john you told me when we met in july that you know he'd become a friend and you hoped you know would continue to be so you know you hear from so many actors on films that you get to know these people and it's like family and then it just finishes and you don't see each other again yeah or maybe very very infrequently it's it sounds almost the opposite with this one you it's been such an intimate experience for you and it seems like john has become a significant part of your life obviously you're all together and you're promoting things that you're promoting the film at the moment exactly but it feels like john will always be part of your life i really hope so i really really hope so i mean i love going there it's not just john it's dotty and chris yeah and you know going to Dotties and, you know, I've just, you know, just got such genuine relationships.

1:11:28And it is different because they're not, they're people I've worked with in my capacity as an actor, but people who I grew up bond with, which is different to other creatives, you know, they're just, they became like, you know, they became like family to me. And, you know, I just, I just really hope that we all stay in each other's lives as we do now, you know, because it's a great, it's for my life personally, it's been a wonderful surprise well that's amazing to hear because you don't you know that most acting jobs i think are just acting jobs yeah regardless of what you get out of it but this is a genuine life changer right yeah and usually usually there's a reason for that it's not because all actors are lying it's just that you know you meet another actor and it's like wow you know you you you experience their brilliance and you know you you know you're in you're in awe of them and you know you you that time together is so special um that it's it's right for it to end it's not always meant to carry on past that point you know i i i think it's just two creatives who are encountering each other and that's great you know but this like like you know i didn't in as i said like i didn't encounter john from that from that place so it was always there was there was always an extra element to it and you know the things that we discussed and explore together it was inevitable i think that we were going to get close um and i feel really thankful for it really because creatively helped me it freed me up and personally it's just awesome you know yeah i mean and and you know everything you said comes for me comes through on the screen you know it's it's a magical experience watching that film and all the work that you put into it completely pays off and there's such compassion and sweetness and heart and comedy in that film it's a beautiful piece of work so I'm going to wrap up but thank you again for your time it's great to talk to you about this thank you, thank you so much for chatting with me it's good to see you again thank you okay, that was Robert Arameo talking to Alex Godfrey about I Swear shall we start the review section with I Swear?

1:13:32yeah, let's Helen, tell me about I Swear please yeah, so this is the fact-based dramatisation of John Davidson's life he was already the subject of a couple of, I think, BBC documentaries that sought to kind of bring better awareness to the condition of Tourette's, which was not completely unknown, but relatively under-discussed. People didn't understand it. People still don't, of course. And yeah, John kind of put himself out there and talked about it and talked about how it affected him and showed the way it affected his daily life. He had quite a severe form, physical ticking, sudden outbursts of things he knew he shouldn't say.

1:14:12you know, sudden bodily spasms and things as well. And it was really, really difficult. I mean, this is at times a heartbreaking film, you know, especially as a young man when he's first diagnosed and he goes from being a perfectly, you know, quote unquote, normal kid, you know, doing normal things and suddenly he's getting in trouble at school and his family are struggling to cope with him and he doesn't know what's happening. Nobody knows what's happening at first. And it's really, really awful to watch this kid go through it. And I have to say that at that point, young John is played by Scott Ellis Watson, and he does an absolutely phenomenal job of sort of bringing the young version to life so that Robert Aramaya, when he comes in and also just off the charts, great performance.

1:14:57I feel like at this point, he's got to be sort of first in line for the BAFTAs. I haven't seen all the contenders yet, obviously, but I feel like he's got to be a major, major contender. But yeah, between them, they sort of just bring this guy to life and you kind of get to see how difficult it was and how circumscribed his life became and how he had to try and really struggle to kind of build any sense of normality for himself. And he did that with the help of not only his parents who had a very, very difficult time at first, represented, for example, by Shirley Henderson playing his mum, but he also got a lot of help from a family friend.

1:15:34So basically the mum of one of his schoolmates, Dottie, who's played by Maxine Peake, became really important in sort of helping him kind of get out of himself and find a place in the community and find a job he could do and just gain some acceptance. You also have Peter Mullen in a lovely, lovely role as basically an employer who gives him a job. I just think this is a wonderful, wonderful character study. it is at times quite funny because I think, as John himself would say, Tourette's can be quite funny because in his form, and it's the kind of stereotypical form, I guess, of Tourette's. It's not the one that everyone has, which the film doesn't make clear.

1:16:12It's like Coprolalia, isn't it? Yeah, where he just shouts things he knows he shouldn't say. Because the film literally starts with him shouting, fuck the queen, at the queen. At the queen, yes. Who has obviously been briefed, to be fair. But, you know, so that is funny. It's often very funny, but it's also really, really tragic and really sad at times. And it doesn't ever lose either of those. And I think the director, Kurt Jones, does a really good job of kind of weaving between all these emotional tones because there's a lot going on in this movie. I just thought it was pretty magnificent, to be honest.

1:16:45I'm all in on Alex's review. Yeah, it's a wonderful little film. But it's one of these films where it's heartwarming and it's cosy. but unlike a lot of cozy films it's also for large parts of it incredibly difficult to watch partly because there's a cringe factor because in any scene you're kind of tense because you're primed because you don't know what he is going to do and neither does he right exactly that but also I think you're right like when he's young like when he first starts manifesting the symptoms it is so heartbreaking because like and of course he's getting bullied he's getting beaten up no one understands they think he's mad like people think he's making it up he's putting it on it's so tragic and you know his parents don't know what it is.

1:17:23The school doesn't believe it's a thing. The police just think he's, you know, being difficult. You know, he's in court at one point. The judge is having none of it and refuses to believe it. And it's just like a constant uphill battle against a society that won't even recognize that this condition exists, let alone, you know, try to understand or help him. And so that sense of like the progress that he makes and when he becomes an activist and when he starts educating people, you know, there's a real sense of elation around that. And there's a wonderful, wonderful scene where he's in a car with another young person with Tourette's actually played by someone with Tourette's and she starts ticking and he starts ticking and they're just yelling obscenities at each other for like a full two minutes and then they kind of stop and they share a look and a bit of understanding between them and she feels seen and he feels like he understands her and it's just lovely.

1:18:07That is actually a really, really beautiful scene. It's just a gorgeous film. It's very hard to describe how good it is without sounding weird, but it's such a wonderful film and I think that, I mean, a lot of that obviously comes from John himself who consulted very carefully with them on the script and made himself available and spent a lot of time with again Kirk Jones but also Robert as well just to kind of get that character in place but yeah it's wonderful it's lovely but without being twee or cute or you know softening the edges and Lord Elrond is great and he is yeah excellent stuff alright we gave us more four stars but it sounds like you guys I know Alex is in the five camp but it sounds like maybe you guys are too I'd say it's definitely a high four Definitely a high four.

1:18:50High four. A four, I swear. Next up, Good Boy, a horror film with a difference. 13 out of 10, Good Boy. They're all good boys. They're all good boys. They are all good boys. This is about a dog that's trying to stop its owner from being possessed by a demon, is my understanding. I haven't seen it yet. Kind of thing. I don't want to say too much more than that because I don't want to give away anything. All right, three stars in for Good Boy. But I do want to talk about the film Because I think it's really, really cleverly done. This is, first of all, I think it's notable that there's only one dog in this film.

1:19:24This is not a stunt team of dogs. Yeah. There's just Indy. A very good boy. Who is playing Indy. He is a very good boy. Oh, he's such a good dog. He is the dog of director Ben Lienberg, who wrote and directed this. And who I think also plays the lead human character, Todd, who's mostly played by Shane Jensen. I think in a couple of scenes like From Behind or At a Distance, it is actually the director because it's his dog. A Nova Scotia duck tolling retriever. Yes. Amazing. Great breed. Anyway, yes, this is basically about, so Todd, this young man who we learn early on has had some kind of struggle with illness in his past and he just needs a kind of a new start.

1:20:05and he goes he decides to go and open up his grandfather's house in the country in the woods in the big dark scary woods and by the way the house is maybe haunted and his grandfather was maybe a weirdo um but he decides he's going to go out there on his own and with his dog with his loyal dog indy and um and yeah just have some time to i guess clear his head his sister vera is worried about him, but he's okay. He's got his dog. But the dog starts sensing that something is wrong and is trying to figure out what to do about that, but is a dog. And I think that's really important to know about this film.

1:20:44This is not a sort of anthropomorphized, you know, hero dog. This is just a dog. A regular dog. This is a regular dog. Behaving like a regular dog. Behaving like a dog, but clear that something is wrong and worried about it and anxious to protect his master. And that's what makes it very, very heartwarming and lovely. Film of the year. But there's scary bits too. And what if the dog is sometimes scared, Chris? He is sometimes scared. He hides under the bed. And he hides under the bed. And there's some bits that I hope that it was Ben doing because if it was anybody else, I'd be very uncomfortable with it.

1:21:19Apparently no dogs were hurt during this production. That's very important to say. But I just, you know, I was very, very, very invested in Indy's well-being watching this film. Let me say it that way. And therefore, like, peripherally and to a much lesser degree, also in Todd's well-being. So, like, I wanted everybody to come out with this well. I was much more invested than I am. You know, some horror movies, you're like, I don't care if all of you die. Like, you're awful. Like, that was not the case. We were like, would die for Indy. Yes. If they harm a hair on that dog's head, I am out of here.

1:21:49Now, I'm not going to give any spoilers, but what I will say is I think Indy is a great, great character. I think, you know, Ben and the editing team have obviously played an absolute blinder in just getting moments of great dog performance and doing whatever they need to do to get the right reactions and the right angles at the right times. And he's talked about this in interviews that just Indy sometimes just did an amazing thing that worked brilliantly for the story and then, you know, boom. But for a tiny budget film made with the director's own dog, I think it's pretty astonishing results.

1:22:20I just think it's a lot smarter than it maybe needs to be. when you just heard horror film from the point of view of a dog, I expected something much more exploitative, much more by the numbers, and much more basic than this. And I think this has a lot of big ideas going on. So I was really impressed. 13 out of 5 stars. Yeah. So just to be me about it, I liked it. I think it's an outstanding central performance from Indy. Like genuinely. But it's worth noting, it's quite, bare bones would be a poor pun. Yeah, it's slight. It is slight. and I would say 70 % of this film is just Indy cocking his head to the side and staring at the camera.

1:22:57Like that is a lot of this film because it's dog reaction shots. And this is a bad thing. It's not a bad thing at all. It's a great thing. This is a feature, not a bug. It's a feature, 100%. But like this is all about that idea in the horror film about where there's something there and the dog senses it and the dog's barking at something. What is the dog barking at? And that's this whole film. But we're kind of in Indy's head. We're following Indy around and wherever there's dialogue, it's kind of, it's quite low in the mix. Oftentimes you can't even make it out because Indy doesn't know what's going on anyway.

1:23:21So you are just following Indy around. And there are some interesting choices in that sometimes it's not clear whether this is actually happening, whether Indy's almost like dreaming, whether Indy, we almost explore Indy's subconscious are parts of this. And also, like there's a big question as to, you know, what this actual, what is the nature of this story? Again, avoiding spoilers. Like how much of this is taken at face value and how much of this is just the perception of a dog given everything that's going on around him? I did not find it scary at all. I found it interesting to watch. And it's very short.

1:23:56It's like an hour and ten minutes. It's a really condensed film, so it doesn't outstay as well. It's better by the second. But it has that almost Blair Witchy, and it's partly the way it's shot. It's very gritty, but it has a kind of grubby, grimy, dirty quality to the whole thing. So it has a kind of almost like a film of yuck to it, which is by design. And I think, like I said, I think it has a great central gimmick, and I love that idea of it, but I'm not sure, for me, the horror narrative around it really supports it. I think if you think about it and you think about, well, actually, is this what it seems to be?

1:24:23Or are we actually really just, are we being a dog at this point? Is this how a dog would experience it? That's all very interesting. But I think taken on its face value as a horror film, I thought I wasn't too, you know, engaged or scared by it. But I did love the dog. All right. Okay. Well, we gave it four stars. Dan Jolin gave it four stars. And it sounds good. Sounds up my street. Maybe it'll be a contender in the Oscar race. Do you think it'll win a lot?

1:24:51oh god oh boy do you think it'll have a good pedigree chum will it be better than chappy most things are yeah that's fair four stars in for good boy now can we keep the four star streak going with Tron Ares Jimbo oh can we indeed yes this is the sequel everyone's been crying out for since Tron Legacy it is the continuation of the story of I guess the grid as the only real returning character let's be honest and this essentially sees a world in which two large corporations run by billionaires are sort of vying for control of the world see if you can imagine such a world you've got Encom which is the company from the previous films and the CEO of that is Eve Kim played by Greta Lee who is as always fabulous and then there is the evil Dillinger Corporation run by Julian Dillinger played of course by Evan Peters and his mum in this is Julian Anderson and then of course there is Jared Leto who plays Master Control aka Ares who is essentially a program within the Dillinger mainframe, within their sort of grid.

1:25:49And the whole story of this is he comes into the real world. There's much searching for something, a digital MacGuffin called the Permanence Code, which will enable things brought into the real world to stay in the real world, because currently they only have 29 minutes. Whenever anything is brought from the grid into the real world, it will last 29 minutes and then it will go. So imagine the first episode of Battlestar Galactica 33, but, you know, four minutes less. And... And much worse. And much, much worse. So the thing you have to understand about this is, and we recorded a spoiler special about this, so we have talked about this extensively in this very room previously, which you will hear at some point, but this is not, I think you're fair to say, noticeably worse than the previous two films.

1:26:36But equally, it's not very good. And for me, this is like a two-hour film, this is about two hours long, it is broadly speaking a very visually interesting vibes based music video for a really really good Nine Inch Nails album because the soundtrack for this film is fantastic but there's not really much of a plot and what there is is incredibly basic you know the dialogue is very on the nose as well like I said great performances Greta Leigh is really good Jodie Turner-Smith who plays another program called Athena she's really good but again it's not like she really has a character but she doesn't have character but she does an awful lot with it she gives it incredible presence so I really enjoyed her in it but it is really the music and the vision it is 100 % vibes this film is it really is that is this whole film it looks good it sounds great there isn't really a story if it itself had been 29 minutes I think we'd all have been happier but as it happens it isn't and it's quite disappointing yeah the plot is bad it's just very bad I think the storytelling is also bad I just I really didn't what are you trying to say?

1:27:41I do agree I mean the soundtrack is a lot especially in the cinema where we saw it where literally the seats were shaking yeah it was wonderful but the soundtrack is so overwhelming that it kind of does get you going along with the film for a while and then you think about it afterwards and you're like what the fuck was that I didn't even think it looked that good I mean the stuff on the grid obviously is cool the idea of 3D printing things off the grid given the logic of the Tron world that bit makes sense to me the 29 minute thing doesn't make sense to me and that whole MacGuffin is stupid but also has no internal logic there's a total lack indeed of internal logic the dialogue is very first base I really I mean the more I think about it and you'll hear me if you do listen to the spoiler special you will hear me kind of working it out in real time but like it's it's not good you do become more overtly hostile towards it as the podcast goes on and you started pretty I wasn't I wasn't super super enthused to begin with I mean I just I don't love the whole Jared Leto Jesus thing that they try to do I don't think that works I think you know Jodie Turner-Smith is innocent she does everything she's asked to do and should be asked to do more Ditto Greta Lee Ditto Greta Lee absolutely although I would have liked her to maybe push back on a couple of lines as the lead of the film but you know fine Gillian Anderson God bless her deserves better but I mean the Leto stuff and like Jeff Bridges does come back briefly I'm not spoiling anything that's been all over the place but it's not enough.

1:29:12I need way more of the dude abiding for this to be good. It feels to me like something happened in the development of this film where the storyline has been pared back to such an extent that it is absolutely bare bones. There's nothing to it. Genuinely, it makes, I don't know what it makes Tron Legacy look like, but it makes it look a very deep and introspective film. And I think that film did do an interesting job of exploring the grid and the world and all of that this has one clever idea which is obviously the one from the end of Tron Legacy which is what happens if the grid comes to the real world but it kind of wastes it and the social commentary and the tech commentary in it feels like a missed swing as well so it is a shame but it does have a banging soundtrack and some good sequences as well yeah the light cycle sequence fantastic yeah you say you're not that impressed with the visuals there are some really really good visuals in this movie some really really fun entertaining sequences yeah but you get those from the trailer for the most part But they're longer than this.

1:30:08And I, for once, actually liked the fact that they were longer. And the light cycle, light cycle? This is a cycle. The light cycle chase through the streets of whatever city that's meant to be. That's great. And there's some nice stuff that happens. I quite like the leaping back and forth between the grid and the real world. The sense of urgency, I think, that the 29-minute thing is meant to impart never quite takes off because either you have to commit to that being real time and it meaning something. Which they seem to start to do and then abandon. Or it's utterly arbitrary. And one of the problems is at one point they get into the real world and they go, we got 29 minutes before we get to do the thing, before you go back to the grid.

1:30:56And it's like, well, we're at least half an hour away from the city where we need to get to. So that's a problem. you know if this had been just a series of Jared Leto thumbing a ride and getting increasingly slower vehicles and then going no that would have been quite interesting but make it 59 minutes you know Darkman made it 99 minutes before Dr. Peyton Westlake's mask ran out for a reason yeah that's our touchstone Darkman is the greatest American movie of the 21st century despite being made in the 20th yeah exactly and you know why Helen? because it's made by your Haunted Goat Boy? No, because every movie of the 21st century is a Darkman sequel with Dr.

1:31:37Peyton Westlake as the lead character. You just aren't willing to accept it. But that is why. I'm sorry, it's Possessed Goat Boy. I apologize for... My beloved one. Yes, my beloved Possessed Goat Boy. For mis-earing Sam Raimi. Sam Raimi. Sam the man, indeed. Yeah. There's a lot of promise in this movie, but it doesn't quite deliver on the promise. they are clearly angling for a sequel I'm not sure they're going to get there I read a story this week that says it's going to make about 90 million dollars worldwide this weekend that is not the sort of opening that gets you a big old sequel but we shall see we shall see three stars then for Tron Ares and our third and final guest this week it is of course the wonderful Gillian Anderson she's national treasure on this side of the pond and that side of the pond.

1:32:29She's great. She's in all your favorite shows. X-Files, The Crown, that other one. Sex Education. Sex Education as well. She's amazing. Has not a lot on the big screen though. But she's in Tron Aries as Elizabeth Dillinger, the mother of Julian Dillinger, played by Evan Peters. And we sent again Alex, who is the Tron Aries Whisperer, along into the grid to have a chat with Julian Anderson about a great many things. Here you are, folks. Enjoy the interview. I'm ready. We're two. Very serious. Very serious. Hello, Gillian Anderson. Hello. How are you doing? I'm all right. Welcome to the Empire Podcast.

1:33:09That's where you are right now. You're on the Empire Podcast. Yes, yes. I did know that. Somebody did tell me that. Well. Recently, and I promise I didn't forget it. Why would you? I mean, it's... Nothing else to think about today. It's an incredible moment for you, I'm sure. Yes, no, it is. Are you globetrotting at the moment? Not as much as some of the other guys. Oh, really? I was in New York. I'm here in London and I will be in LA, but that's... Well, that's okay. So you're not completely bewildered. You know what country you're in. You know what day it is. I do, yes, yes. I'm not on their time zones.

1:33:43They are upside down, as you would be. Yeah. How was New York? Did you have any fun or was it just this? Not that this is not fun, obviously. Yeah, we have fun. We do. Yeah. In general. We laugh. We make the most of it. It's not all hell. Some of it? Surely not. No. No, especially not Empire. Thank you very much. Yeah. But we'll see what happens over the next few minutes. Okay, yes. I should just tell our listeners about your character in Tron Aries, Elizabeth Dillinger, runs the Dillinger Corporation. It's an interesting lineage. Ran. Well. Yeah. Hang on. what sort of time frame you saw I mean I have seen the film but you have or you haven't I have seen okay yeah so at the start of the film is she sort of I mean she's still got a hand in it well I think from what I understood was that um was I not paying proper attention is that uh the board there was a board decision made that she was handed over to her son hence all the problems right yes there's a lot of information at the beginning of that film yeah I mean, she's obviously still in the background.

1:34:49She is. Obviously, he's... So your son, Julian, played by Evan Peters, is running amok. Yes. You're trying, as a good mother does, and as also someone who has the interest of the company. Interest of the company because I also brought it up to its most prolific and profitable 10-year period. And he's ruining it all. Yes, he is indeed. But it's an interesting... And possibly even ruining, you know, humankind. Yes, everything and everyone around him. But it's an interesting lineage, isn't it? So David Warner was the face of Dillinger in the first film. Yeah. And Cillian Murphy had a couple of minutes in the second film.

1:35:30And now it's you two. But, yeah, it's interesting. I mean, for whatever reasons you might have for trying to keep him on the rails in the film, you're not completely dastardly in it at all. No, no. He is. No, I'm not. I mean, obviously, I will know the antics that my forefathers have gotten up to. And you don't get the sense that she was necessarily involved in that. But you also don't necessarily get the sense that she has righted any wrongs, perhaps. So there's a complicity. But in the current scenario, it's clear that she has a good moral framework. Well, it's all relative, I guess, because, I mean, she's an angel compared to him.

1:36:20Yes. And regardless of what she may or may not have done in the past, she still works for the sort of company that we know in real life. You can't really trust a company like that. A big corporate aggressive company that is getting its fingers in all sorts of pies. Right. I mean, also my understanding, and forgive me if I'm wrong because I could very well be wrong, was that the weapons area has only been introduced since Julian has been involved. And prior to that, it was just, you know, computer programming on a higher level? Or do you understand? I'm so glad we're figuring this out now. Yeah, let's get through this together.

1:37:04That they had already, that she was involved in some of the... Well, no, the company's always been up to no good in these films. And I just mean, you know, I might be reading too much into it, but companies like that in this day and age. Yes. I mean, they don't have good reputations. No, no, that's true. Because they don't have the interests of people at heart. No, that's very true. I mean, depends how much we want to talk about capitalism. No, it's very true. It's very true. She's very ambitious. She is? Yes, and she's very ambitious, and for her to have brought the company up to where it was in terms of its billions, you would have imagined that there would be some dastardly stuff going on.

1:37:46Nefariousness. Nefariousness, yeah. Some underhandedness. Yeah. I mean, did you see any real world parallels there? Did you find it interesting that you were working for one of these, your carousers were working for one of these big corporations? Because these companies kind of run the world, don't they? Yeah, they do. And I mean, you know, convenient for us that every other day there is something in the news cycle about one of them and what they are up to and the degree to which we are all sheep, I guess. Yeah. And that they are, you know, digging their hills in time and again. Exactly. And so, you know, I mean, it's very prescient, the story, but it also feels like the previous incarnations of the film were touching on all this stuff anyway, almost as if it was not sightseeing.

1:38:52What's it called? Telling the future of something. Prophesising? Yeah, that's what I mean. But all science fiction is in a way. Yeah. We're finding. Well, it's interesting science fiction, isn't it? Because on the one hand, it's fiction and it's like, let's go off to these different worlds and different places and different times. But good science fiction is supposed to tell us something about humanity and about ourselves. I mean, you've done quite a bit of it before. Yeah. But, I mean, that must be one of the interesting things about Daniel's film. Well, in so many of the films that we have seen, In a lot of the Marvel films, you always have that kind of malevolent, hubristic character at the centre, whether he's as octopus arms or whether he's just twiddling his moustache behind a desk.

1:39:42And the fact that we have those in the top tech world today is, it's like you couldn't make it up. You couldn't. You can't imagine that we've actually somehow foreseen the degree of, yeah. The megalomaniac billionaires playing with their toys at our expense. Yes. Anyway, this is getting quite heavy. Yes. Let's go light. So you are Evan's mother in the film. Did you have any time to get to know him beforehand, to sort of maybe get some sort of familial bond between you? Yeah, we had a two-hour Zoom. Oh, okay. Maybe that's enough. Yeah. I mean, sometimes you don't even get that before you're meant to have been, you know, you arrive on set and have been, you know, married to somebody for 30 years or whatever.

1:40:34So, but it's, no, it's good. I mean, that's what actors are paid to do, right? What did you discuss on your Zoom? I think it was mostly, you know, saying hello and discussing what we thought, how our battle manifested itself in a sense in terms of the tug of war that we have and how it shows up on screen in the relationship. That's interesting. Were you both on the same page or were there things that came up in that conversation that then altered maybe how you approached it? No, I think we were pretty much on the same page. But also, I mean, depending on the actor, very often, no matter what can be discussed, you work with what you have in the moment.

1:41:24And sometimes what you have in the moment might even be different from because of they figured out more stuff between the time that you guys had the conversation and all that particular day, then not in a particularly good mood and all of that is impacting. So you have to, you know, part of being an actress, being malleable and going off of what you're getting. And also the director can come in and give you some direction that informs something. Like Yoakam suggested at one point that I adjust his, you know, that I ask him to stand up straight, that I put my hands on his shoulders and get him to stand up straight.

1:42:05Oh, right, okay. And that was so big, that little bit of information about the nature of their relationship and her level of control and judgment and, you know, some of the interplay of, you know, stuff like that. Time for one more question. Yeah. Let me, I think I mentioned before I was on set, the sets were insane. Yeah. The volume was insane. Yeah, yeah. what was the most surreal moment for you being there? Was there a time where you just looked around and was like, what's going on? Well, there were two moments, actually. One was that screen, whatever the arch screen is, that has all of the computers in the back.

1:42:49The volume, yeah, I think. There's like a backdrop, but the back of it is all of these tiny little computers, and it's like some huge multi-million pound screen. Yeah. And then there's, you know, her, now his office, Julian's office, which used to be my office. And that screen is actually placed behind the window that's behind the desk. And it's a 3D video loop of action that's happening behind the desk. So it's, I mean, I'd never seen that before where a backdrop is actually a video that's playing and it plays from the same place at the beginning of a scene and starts and finishes. So people are moving in the background.

1:43:36There are different levels. And, you know, anyway, that was pretty surreal. Plus the nature of the office was. It's all crazy. But it looks so, it pays off, doesn't it? It looks so incredible in the film. It does. All right. Got to wrap up. Thank you so much. very long ago thanks okay that was Gillian Anderson talking about Tron Aries and on that note folks that is it for this week's Empire Podcast join us next week for more film related fun when we'll be joined by Janine Tatum and Kirsten Dunst stars of Roofman a new film from Derek Cien France and he might be on the show as well we'll also be joined by oh god there's so many people I've done it again I've overbooked I can't remember who's on it but I've already dropped two A-list names what more do you want?

1:44:25Exactly Precisely Oh Rebecca Miller director of the new Martin Scorsese documentary Mr. Scorsese so she'll be on that as well and then there is there genuinely is at least one other person but that's exciting Is it a Black Phone 2 thing? It is a Black Phone thing yes Mason Thames and Madeleine McGraw Ah That'll be a real grabber of an interview Oh no Anyway until then until we meet again until that suspicious occasion it is goodbye from my two colleagues of such lethal cunning goodbye Helen O 'Hara toodaloo goodbye James Dyer goodbye Christopher listen to the pilot TV book of course no and it's goodbye fair enough don't say I didn't try it's goodbye from me as well I am off to look at my schedule and weep but you know what more than anything Helen I wish yes Chris I wish you I wish you thanks for listening see you next time bye