Claude, Make Me Rich: Finding Anthropic’s Next Giant Market

0:09Good morning, good evening, wherever you are, and welcome back to the Enterprise AI Show. This is your host, Aaron, and today, Brian and Brandon do another roundtable on Anthropic by imagining they just got hired and they have one job. Find out the next giant business. Brandon floats the idea that might get him fired, plus a radical pitch where Anthropic only gets paid when the work actually gets done. Brian counters that with a product that quietly matches how a company really runs. And the two of them wonder whether the biggest piece of Anthropic's business is still missing. And all of that is coming up right after this quick break.

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1:50All right, Tim, we're back. Joining me again, Brandon Wichert. Brandon, last show we did, we said we're going to do this as part of a two-part series. We put ourselves in the strategy shoes of Anthropic. Anthropic, which we expect to do an IPO sometime here in November, December, 2026. It might slip. You never know, but that's what we're expecting. We said, hey, what do we think their strategy is going to look like for big growth? And we threw out some ideas of what that looked like. I want to do the flip side of this, which is, okay, there's some things that they could do for growth. We might get those right, might get those wrong.

2:21But usually what ends up happening, and we see this a lot, is a company will get a bunch of funding, could be an IPO funding, could be just a bunch of VC funding, and you start seeing people in your LinkedIn profile who go, hey, the last 10 years at such and such a company was great, but I'm going to change the world over at Anthropic. And they end up becoming a product manager or a business lead or something at some group, and they get snatched up because they've got some domain expertise about something that might help that company. And so what I want to do is put yourself in the shoes of, you just got hired as general manager, product management lead, whatever it might be.

2:58It doesn't really matter what the domain is. But how would you go about trying to position some new anthropic thing with a bunch of customers? Like, how would you be going after it with the sort of traditional go-to-market approach? Do you think there's something going to be completely new with how AI is going to drive go-to-market? it. Sit in that space for a little bit. What are some of your early thoughts about how you might try and accomplish this? I think the first thing you'd have to do, and this breaks all the product management rules, is I think I'd have to go into the research group and be like, what's going on in here?

3:28What is behind the hood? Because I think the thing about this kind of problem, and I've run into this in my quote-unquote previous regular jobs, is you can come up with ideas and maybe you can find some need, but usually you'll be shot down because they'll say something like, It doesn't matter. Even if we're successful doing that, the market's too small, right? So you can't just walk in and be like, I know how to make clog code like 1 % better. They're like, yeah, that's not, we don't really care. So the thing that's going to be really hard about that is you're going to have to really hunt down some interesting ideas.

4:01And what you'd be looking for is the classic, do they help big markets? So of course you'd be like finance, banking, healthcare. You'd be like, what in the research group do I think is going to pop out? And if it did, and then I would immediately start prototyping. And this is the place where using Cloud Code and the funds, I'd be like, we're prototyping everything that we can possibly think of in one of these domains and just trying to see if we can get any type of traction. the other thing that i think would probably get me fired from anthropics i won't do this if i'm actually there is i'd be like listen guys i looked at the stock market and it's like the some of the biggest companies they all sell digital advertising maybe we should maybe we should think about that maybe we should think about some type of contextual ads now i feel like that's not really what claude and anthropic want to do and that's more the world of open ai but you'd kind of be crazy not to like at least have the conversation right and say hey is there a way we can do ads in a way that is acceptable because even bad ads that are acceptable inside of services like this could have enormous profits of course carries a lot of issues privacy like we don't have to we will not relitigate all social media again here so i don't know i don't know how they navigate that and i would expect though the pressure and this is going to be real interesting is like the pressure to deliver against these numbers at some point will become so great that it's like companies typically have to evaluate these things, even if they at first didn't want to?

5:36I don't know. That's been my observation. What do you think? No, I think that's right. I think you're right in that you'd want to go in looking for gigantic markets, right? You'd be looking for it. Advertising feels like the one that's the most not on the radar right now, as far as Anthropik goes. I think the other way that I was thinking about this was, I know we talked about it on the previous show, being like, okay, do you just try and, for example, go to an organization and be like, we will rebuild your software. We will rebuild your systems. We will do things that replace one thing, some big system you have, an ERP type of system with something else.

6:14And I got to thinking about it and I was like, we talked a little bit about that Alex Karp rant about the Palantir rant from a few months ago, where he basically said a lot of these AI systems are sitting there between the things you're doing with AI and your data, and they're learning about your business. He called it taking your alpha, taking your differentiation. But I do wonder if there's a flip side to that discussion, which is you could go to a lot of organizations and be like, hey, what are the things that truly differentiate you? If you went to a bank, for example, or even you went to an automotive company, and you're like, hey, you guys do a thousand things.

6:51How many of them are truly differential? And how many of them, it's probably 70 % or 80%, are just things you have to do to run the business? And if there was an opportunity for you to take 30%, 40%, 50 % of the cost out of that or find a way to get infinitely more efficient at doing it, you'd probably get most CEOs and CIOs to sign up for that. And so the other thought that I had, you were thinking about advertising, I was like, is there a way to build a product that essentially like actively you would put in between whatever people are doing and the data? So for example, it almost just looks like a giant sniffer, if you will, for people that haven't heard of that.

7:32Like it would sit between whatever people do on a day-to-day basis and your biggest data sources and just be like, just figure out what the company does. Look at all the transactions. Look at all the things that it's asking for. Try and figure out the context of all that sort of stuff. And then basically be like, how would I make this better? And I think you could potentially – it would all sit in the background. You wouldn't be asking anybody to change anything for what they did. But you could probably come back with a pretty interesting picture after three months, six months to the C-level team and be like, this isn't consulting BS.

8:07This is like tangible things you could go do that people would pay. They'd pay some fraction of that, which would be a pretty large number in a lot of large corporations. I feel like that would be – I don't want to say it's a low-hanging fruit, but that might be one of the initial things I would go after. I like that idea. Does that make any sense? I know it feels like a privacy concern thing. Yeah, I like that idea. But I'm also thinking, is there a place for like really a radical new go to market model? And I was thinking as you were talking there that I think it's Sierra, which is the company that was founded by, I think, Brett Taylor.

8:40He's of Salesforce and I was very successful in other things. But as I recall, his that company charges. It's basically like customer support when people call in. He charges by outcomes. Right. By only by outcome. Right. They only pay if it actually handles the call and the issues were resolved. And I was thinking to myself, because right now we're constrained about thinking about we have a product, we're going to have professional services, professional services and the product features go to the customer and eventually they produce something for them. And it's some version of licensing, time and materials, something along those lines.

9:16But let's use Dario's thing. What does he say? I have the 10 ,000 PhDs. I got 10 ,000 PhDs in my system here or whatever, right? And I said to myself, like, are you willing to take on more risk? And so you go to the company and say, listen, I've, and I know we talked a little bit about this on a previous episode. We're talking a little bit about Cisco, right? And that they've funded one person or a small team to go rewrite everything. But what if you walked in and said, listen, I, instead of me coming here and telling you how to rewrite this system, what if I actually just take this over? And I said to you, I want to take this over and whatever, whatever metric we think that thing produces, like some type of transactions or something like that.

9:53I just want to charge if I successfully do that and I'm giving you the outcomes that you wanted, because I have the 10 ,000 PhDs with me, right? I don't need you to do that. And if I do that well, I'm essentially going to absorb all the risks because I'm going to do all the work. And when I say all, it's probably clawed. I'm basically going to take all the tokens, do all the work. And then if it starts to work, I want you to, you're going to pay me. And we're going to come to some agreement that the price is going to work. So that would be a different way to go than very traditional. And I guess that's trying to think of like, we have the agents and we believe that we can run autonomous agents can ultimately do the business outcome that you want.

10:33And it's like, it may take something like that to get everyone over the hump. Because I still think we all, me included, we all probably think too much agent in the loop, at least if we're believing. And I know today, hey, we're really, we're on the optimistic side of this conversation. If we believe the optimistic side, we should be thinking the agents can ultimately do most of this work for us. Yeah. So, and then maybe for Anthropic, like I, they need to prove it to some people and they need to be able to put some, like if you will, money on the table versus you pay me and then I leave you with an agent that's doing all the stuff that you may or may not be happy with.

11:07So I don't know, I like the idea of doing that, but it does feel complicated. Yeah, no, it's, I like the thing you looked at. Actually, we've had a number of companies who have pinged us about wanting to come on the show and talk about outcome-based results and so forth. So I think we need to do a follow-up with some of those. It would be interesting. I know the company you talked about is doing it with customer service types of things, which feels to me a little bit like, yeah, we went from smart people to they outsourced it to other groups. So you got cheaper people, don't know as much, you might have to take longer to get to stuff.

11:39And then they started outsourcing it until you got a pop-up window that would give you a menu. Now we're starting to have chatbots. So I can see where that one moves towards outcome-based. I would be interesting to see if they could do it towards things that feel like you spend a lot of money on them. So namely, sales and marketing, right? Sales and marketing, the sort of SG &A line on the income statement or the balance share on the income statement, I guess it would be. Those feel like things where you're like, we spend so much money and we really have no idea. I don't want to say we have no idea, but we have limited idea of how successful they're going to be.

12:13And could you, would somebody ever build a business that would be outcome-based around like marketing or outcome based around sales? Sales is probably the bigger thing. Cause I think like meta and Google would argue nowadays, you start placing ads since we don't charge you unless you will click on them. That's sort of outcome-based, but if you could do it from a sales perspective, Hey, I'm going to give you this territory. I'm going to give you this number. And I know with, I don't know, 80 % accuracy that you're going to make that number or these tools are going to make that number. I feel like that would be a huge thing.

12:46It would be interesting to look at what are the things in a business today that are the most should be outcome-based, but people aren't, they're not getting very good returns on what outcome-based look like. It's really interesting. It's a little dangerous to even talk about because it crosses over a little bit of what we were talking about before, right? I said before, so we got to broach this idea of online advertising, but maybe what we want to go to is there's so much information. If you start using Claude, there's so many things that Claude knows about you, especially if you just go read the memory files of it when I use Claude code.

13:15And that, you kind of marry these two concepts together, right? It's so much, because I think today people are using, I just bought a car and it's just like, everyone was using AI. I was using AI to write emails to the dealerships. They were using AI to write me emails. And then they were generating quotes with AI. Then I was generating counter offers with it. So it was just like I said to someone, we could just, we could just get out of the way. The agents could just do this work. It's like, I'm barely involved. And so I don't know, maybe that's the next level. And I think today that's what I feel like most people are doing when they're doing their outreach is they're using Claude to help write their emails.

13:48They're doing outreach through having Claude help send emails. And, you know, and of course we all get way too many emails, it's election season, right? And it's endless amounts of emails about the elections, about that. And it would be interesting. I don't know, like all the projects I'm doing, it's like, I would be interested in what would Claude, if it kind of knows the stuff I'm working on right now, what would it tell me? What recommendations would it tell me to be like, you should go talk to these people or maybe they have some tools? Because then it happens implicitly today. If you're going to build a website, Claude's basically going to tell you, you can host it for free on Cloudflare.

14:20Don't tell anyone. Don't tell anyone in Cloudflare that I'm using all their free sites, their offerings to do it. And so there's some implicit advertising already happening, but it would be interesting if you could almost connect the dots because there would be a real funnel of money if you ever got there. Of course, numerous privacy issues, so many issues with what I just said, but you kind of feel like the money would be there. Yeah, it would be an interesting conversation. About a year ago, I was doing an event, I was speaking at an event, and literally in the next ballroom next to me at this hotel, this random hotel in Florida, was an entire event just about the auto industry.

14:58And it was just like auto dealers and stuff. And And it was the people, not like Ford Motor, but like the place where you would go get a car for Ford Motor at your local place down the street or whatever. And the entire thing was about AI. The entire thing was about how do we better handle people coming and looking around the website? How do we reach out to them? How do we be aggressive? How do we not be too aggressive? And the whole thing, you think about that process itself. And they went through a lot of, hey, how do you get from better conversion rates from people that look around your site?

15:29And how can you tell if they've been looking at other stores and they're just shopping against price and stuff? But you think about how many processes, so much of what we talk about with AI is you want to keep human in the loop. And when are you going to have agents versus when are you going to have people and so forth? But I bet there are a ton of like buying a car feels like one of those things at the top of the list of things you're like, I don't want to deal with the people. I don't want to deal with the sales manager. I don't want to deal with the finance manager. I don't want to deal with like, I would love to find a way to do a test drive.

15:58and I'd love to pay you. And everything else in between, like this whole thing could be automated and I wouldn't have to deal with people and so on and so forth. I wonder how many of those types of things are out there that would be a perfect example of, I don't have to worry about human in the loop because the dealer probably doesn't want you having a dealer in the loop. You don't want a person in the loop, all that kind of stuff. But yeah, no, it's... So what if we like kind of even built on this a little further and we kind of like had this idea of like, what if we call it, forget advertising, what if we call it like opt-in like real-time shopping?

16:27So for example, I just went through this basically like if Claude, I was using it. So like it knew like I even had a date. I needed to get this car by a certain date, right? It would almost be interesting if you could almost opt into a moment and be like, like you're going to broadcast like through Claude, through your agent and say, listen, tell everyone I'm going to buy a car by this date and have Claude do something that like really validates that you're going to do it, that you're really qualified, that it's really going to happen. Like maybe you got to put some money in there. Maybe you got to show some type of intent beyond this.

16:56because I know on the deal, on the salesman side, salesperson side, they get frustrated because people just - Yeah, are you a qualified lead? Yeah, what are you doing? Are you shopping? But it's okay. And it's almost like, I almost like have this idea of the console then. Like I'm just in there and I'm just like, okay, I'm going to buy it this time. I've specified what I want. Let everyone ask questions. And then their AIs or the salesperson behind the scenes, they can go back and they can essentially go out and give you their best and final out the door of the price. Right? And it's like, it all just works because it really, like today, for this last time, this is the first time I did it, where I did almost what you said.

17:29I got five dealerships. I think four were willing to talk to me on the phone. And then we ended up doing most things via text, right? So it's just like the next level. And it was just like, and so this idea, especially for like a major purchase, like house could be the same kind of thing, right? Where it's just, I mean, cause you think about when you make a, you go to your realtor usually and your realtor makes an offer on your behalf. And then there's another realtor and then they go back. And it's almost like this moment of, forget about almost the sales and markets. Let's just make the transaction go really smoothly.

17:57Right. And let's just see how much of it we can get done so that all the paperwork is done. And that way, when you walk up and you buy your house, all you have to do is sign the papers, buy your car. So I don't know. I like the idea of like just pushing this because it's not so much that we just have more information. So we have a thinking machine behind us that can actually work with it. And we know on the other side, there are other thinking agents, maybe thinking is the wrong word, but there are agents that are willing to help us do that. So I kind of idea of I don't know what we call it. I don't know, informed commerce or agent-based commerce.

18:27Let's just get out of the way. Get the human beings out of the way. Yeah. Your shopping example kind of created an interesting thought in my mind. Because in reality, and if you're just thinking about it from a purely transactional perspective, if you're a salesperson, you want qualified leads, and then you just want to try and go close those things, right? You're trying to reach, like, I want to find a perfect harmony between somebody who's like, I have intent, I have money, and you're like, I have inventory and we're going to match those things together, right? But then I also got to thinking about it and I was thinking about, okay, let's suppose you are somebody who's like, I'm going on vacation, I'm going on vacation for a week, and this wouldn't be you or I because we would throw four t-shirts in a bag and we'd be done.

19:08But let's say this is your wife or your kids or somebody who's fashion conscious. The last thing they want to do is be like, okay, I've got to figure out weather, I've got to figure out activities. I want to know what's going on at the hotel or what are the local restaurants. If you think about you're going to go on vacation, there's 40 variables in play. Who's going? What all is it? But you're like, if you were like anthropic and you don't think about this in terms of I'm selling stuff to people, right? You're thinking like, how would I create the ultimate immersive shopping experience? You'd be like, okay, tell me about your trip.

19:41Where do you think you're going? What do you think is going to be going on? and you'd be like, okay, I'm going to lay you out an itinerary, which people do today with all the chatbot stuff. But you'd be like, I need to buy six or seven new outfits. And what you don't want to do is be like, all right, I want to go to seven or eight different stores and check out. You want to be like, what would I look like in these? What do you think I should put together? They could create, because again, they're going out, they're looking at 50 different things through the tool calling. They could create the most amazing experience for you.

20:10And on the back end of that, Now you've got, imagine all these retail places like bidding to try and get being part of that transaction. You've got restaurants bidding to try and get part of your things. They could be ultimately creating sort of what is the new, going back to your point of outcome-based as opposed to advertising-based. That could become what their business looks like in terms of essentially every experience that you're like, yeah, I got to do a whole bunch of stuff and I don't want to go off searching through 10 different websites. I just want to create the experience that's going on thousands and thousands of times a day, all the time.

20:46They could create what would become sort of the new Google trying to pull all those things together for you. And then being like, visually, here's what you would look like in this outfit. Here's what these things would look like. Here's how you'd pack it. Oh, you need, that's not going to fit in the right suitcase. Here's the right luggage you need for this stuff. Like that would be, that would be a big picture thing. They could only pull together as opposed to any individual company, any individual brand pulling that together. Yeah, I think there's some idea here that we would just have to uncover more.

21:11It's like concierge, like buying, right? I think what you're getting is no one really, like today, like you said before, you can get an itinerary and stuff and it's like, it's just okay. But really what you want is someone, you know, just like you would do with a concierge, like someone asking you questions that knows you, that knows the area that's making recommendations. And then you change your mind and whether that's clothes or what you want to do or what you're buying, or maybe you change your mind on the car, right? You're like, ah, it turns out I don't want the black one. I want the blue one now, right?

21:37Something along those lines. So this idea that we get away from where you started the question where traditional marketing is like pushing stuff in your face. Yeah. And this is why people complain and hoping somebody that somebody actually has the need when they see that versus intent based. I'm really in it. And that's what everyone would like to do. It's like if the only things that you saw were things and marketing and sales that actually were things that you wanted or needed, you'd probably be happy with it. The fact is most of the stuff is just is you're not going to buy it now because you don't need it now.

22:05Right. And that's the frustrating part of it all. And that's part of sort of your traditional advertising, which is I'm going to keep throwing. That's basically what Facebook and Instagram does. They constantly go, oh, we're going to show you stuff that you don't even think you know you need. But once we show you the emotion of that experience or how cool the person looks wearing something or whatever it is, you're going to be like, okay, I guess I got to buy that. I hadn't thought about buying that, but I guess I need to buy that. That might not be as possible if it's going through one of these systems.

22:35But I do think how big they can get, it's getting, if you will, into the larger conversation around how are we going to make back all this money for the IPO? It's like you want to get involved in the transactions, the business and the selling, right? Because that's the only kinds of things that are going to be big enough to generate profits. Think of it like MasterCard and Visa and all these other things, right? It's like you want to be getting involved in that side of the industry so that you can make it and offer some type of value, like Stripe. And that's the piece, the more we talk about this, the more I think about it, like they, I don't know how their enterprise deals are structured versus their individual deals.

23:09I'm sure it's like a lot of enterprise software, but like they still don't have a giant aggregation point, right? Google's got, Google is the Uber aggregator of lots of different stuff, like mapping and travel information. They've got ads, obviously they've got, they aggregate all sorts of videos. Like Anthropic hasn't even scratched the surface of being an aggregator of really anything yet. Like everything feels very individual when you're doing stuff with Anthropic. I know they do team stuff, but maybe that's where this thing really explodes in the way that none of us can really understand it because we're looking at it immediately and being like, oh, you don't do ads yet.

23:44And it's, yeah, but maybe there is a much bigger thing there. They just, they don't seem to have like even showed the tip of the iceberg of what that aggregation thing is, which is the aggregation business as Ben Thompson talks about all the time, is like the biggest way to make money. in the internet, whether it's on the consumer side or the enterprise side, but more on the consumer side. So. And everyone, it's really open AI who's has the aggregation point, but they have yet another thing Ben Thompson talks about a time. They have not figured out how do we make money for it. And you have the people, they have the people point.

24:13They have lots of people, but they don't have an aggregation point. There's no collective service that they provide yet. So maybe that's the open question going forward is for so long, everyone's scoffed at subscription base for consumers, right? I know obviously people listening to this podcast probably have a, probably willing to pay their own subscription. But like, maybe if you're any one of these companies, you think to yourself, how do we get, it's kind of like Netflix. How do we get 300 million people paying$20 a month and not, and just think of it just like Netflix. Of course I pay$20 a month for Claude or for OpenAI because that's just what I do and that's how it works.

24:45That would be, I don't know, that's sort of the white whale. Like no one, for productivity tools, no one really has cracked that. It seems like it always becomes ad-based. But you'd have to, if you want to make billions and ultimately trillions of dollars, like you, you've got to be in some big markets. That's a big dilemma. Yeah. Yeah. The more I think about it, the more we're talking about this stuff, like even if you were doing the thing that creates that great experience or something like that, and maybe you could, and you could do Claude for retail experience, Claude for travel experience, Claude for whatever.

25:12You've got to reach a point where you're doing much more aggregation than going to every single business and being like, okay, let's replace your ERP system. Let's replace your legal group. You have to start with some sort of bigger aggregation that then allows you to then go off. It's almost like the Facebook strategy that we're talking about now, which is like they've got these aggregation points and now they're trying to get into enterprise. I don't think you can do it the other way around. it. I don't think you can start an enterprise and then move into other aggregations. At least we've never seen anybody necessarily do that before.

25:44And I think before we maybe get out of here and maybe the real answer to this question is like they, nobody really knows, but they just know we just keep making these models smarter that these models will do something that's incredibly valuable. And that's, you know, there's nothing more that people like than a great story that one day the great model will solve all the problems. And if you don't invest in it, you're going to miss out. And some days I believe that, some days I don't. Yeah. And that was the other thing that I had lingering in my head the whole time was I was like, we keep thinking about this in the context or in the framing that we've done for 20 or 30 years, which is like, there's a product that does a thing for you.

26:19And then there's a different product. And it's like, their product is essentially like the aggregation of all human intelligence. You've just got to have the owner's manual to go unlock it. And I'm like, on one hand, that's unbelievably powerful. And the opportunities for that are like unbelievable. But at the same time, you're then expecting people to go figure this stuff out. And yes, people have figured those things out, but like the population as a whole aren't creators. There's small portions of the population that are creators and are curious enough to go do that. The rest of the population tends to be like, I follow along to what the system tells me to do or what I was told at school or what my neighbor does or whatever.

26:57So I do sometimes wonder to, to Anthropik's point in some other, like if they just, they don't grok just how regular human people work as opposed to like the super smart people that maybe work in Anthropik or the way that they work since they're tend to be less social in what they do. But yeah, that, that point of like, maybe they don't need that stuff because the system already is the super aggregator itself and it will just figure out ways to do it. I just don't feel like, like you have enough control on how to drive big markets that way. So, so you know what, maybe the real answer to this question is like, you just wait till the model gets released.

27:31Like as a product manager, you say, listen, I'm just going to wait long enough till the model's really smart. And then I'm just going to, my prompt is going to be like, Claude, what is the best way to make a lot of money with stuff that you can do? And then it just tells, and it's like, oh, here's the answer. brand is like, I can invent cheap, renewable energy for you. I can solve major medical problems. I can do this and this. I'll be like, okay, go ahead and implement all that. And I'll take it back to my boss. Like maybe that's the answer is we're just going to ask the model at the end. That feels a little bit like what's the old saying?

27:57The market can remain rational much longer or irrational much longer than you can remain insolvent or you'll remain solvent or whatever. Yeah. We could keep cranking to build the world's greatest model. We might run out of money in doing that, but, and then at some point we will be able to, we'll be able to do the one command that just says, Claude, make me rich. Boom. That's what we need. Until then, I guess we keep podcasting. That's right. That's right. All right, man, we're going to wrap it up there. Hopefully folks enjoyed this. We'd love to hear your feedback on both everything that we got wrong, which might be the entire show, but more importantly, if you guys were put in those positions, what would be your ideas for what Claude's going to look like to get from$2 trillion to$200 trillion?

28:32So let's hear your ideas. Love to hear them. Show at the enterpriseiishow.com. You can hit us up or hit us up on socials or any other way. So with that, we'll wrap it up. We'll talk to you next week. Thanks for listening. Check us out at theenterpriseaishow.com for past shows, newsletters, and all things Enterprise AI.