Are turbulence-free flights closer than we think?

0:11Hello and welcome to the Entrepreneurs on Monocle Radio, the show all about inspiring people, innovative companies and fresh ideas in global business. Welcome aboard today's aviation-themed episode. There's turbulence up ahead, but you won't feel the bumps as we meet the founder of a company making air travel smoother with its groundbreaking turbulence-canceling technology. The future of air mobility really depends on aspects of turbulence. So actually turbulence is increased and especially for future air mobility vehicles, turbulence is even more impactful. So we have a solution. And later, we'll hear from a CEO of a DC area charter aircraft brokerage who used to work at the White House.

0:52Anytime the president would travel domestically and internationally, I managed that operation. This is The Entrepreneurs with me, Tom Edwards.

1:08you're listening to the entrepreneurs andras galfi is the ceo and founder of turbulent solutions a vienna-based aviation company working to ensure smoother flight for all it's a problem andras doesn't personally have to deal with a seasoned flyer with multiple pilot licenses he's happiest in a cockpit, whatever the weather. But for many travellers, turbulence can be a terrifying experience, enough to prompt some to avoid stepping on a plane at all. It's a problem, therefore, that Andras and his team want to address, especially for smaller planes that really feel those bumps. I caught up with Andras to understand how it all works.

1:45He began by telling me about the impressive technology. So actually, it's a pretty unsolved problem. So also in general, in physics, there's quantum theory and this turbulence and quantum is very much solved in turbulence, almost not solved at all. Still, there is even a big problem from the Clayton mathematics millennium problem that you could solve there. But also for aviation, there is a lot of unsolved things where it's about passenger comfort, but also about flight efficiency. And the most important aspect here is that the future of air mobility really depends on aspects of turbulence. So actually, turbulence is way increasing.

2:20So you see that also in recent years, a lot of increased accidents and incidents. And especially for future air mobility vehicles like this flying taxis and lighter aircraft, electric aircraft, turbulence is even more impactful. So a very interesting topic for us and we have a solution. Well, exactly. Let's cut straight to the chase. What exactly are the kinds of flight control mechanisms and technologies that you and your team are developing, have developed that can address this? because you say it's a subject that's vexed the most brilliant engineers since the dawn of flight. So what do these solutions look like?

2:55Yeah, so in principle, or like start with the context. So you're sitting in an aircraft in stronger turbulence. You all know that the cabin is shaking. You're feeling all these bumps. So our solution turbulence cancelling enables that you just don't feel the turbulence anymore. And how does it work? So two important things. One is we measure ahead of the wing. So just imagine you're driving a car. You don't want to be surprised of a turn. So, oh my God, I got off the road. Let's get back to the road. But you really want to anticipate this turn. So we're measuring already ahead of the wing, know what happens to the wing in the next instant.

3:28And the other very important thing is to have very fast countermeasures. And here we have small so-called flat blades, so small deflections on the wing, similar like birds always correct the wing shape to the current circumstances to the airflow. And there we generate some kind of counter turbulence. So the turbulence gives you up-down motion and we generate some counter-turbulence. And so you get a perfect stable 1G flight. If our system is like the perfect system in future, for now it's more than 80 % of cancelling. So if you would get plus minus 0.5G up-down, you only feel 0.1 at the end. Yeah, I mean, amazing number.

4:04Talk to me about the gap, I guess, Andras, between developing the theory. And at this point, it's interesting to reflect on your own experience, of course, coming through as an engineer you know through academia and so forth in your in your training days how did you bridge the gap between the theory that one could address these problems with those fixes and then the execution as you said many people have tried and not been able to do it so what was that journey like yeah so i think the most important thing was exactly executing actual flight operations on a pilot myself since more than 12 years even doing aeropatics so g force and like being pushed into the seat isn't my personal problem but i experienced with friends just flying with passengers, that that's really a bigger problem than I expected.

4:45Like me being really fascinated by aviation and not understanding why you don't want to get into an aircraft. Rather, I don't want to get out of an aircraft. But so the interesting thing now coming from theory was actually the primary goal of our research at university wasn't to cancel turbulence, but actually rather to generate some turbulence to generate G-force. So it was rather an academic control theory having perfect path accuracy. So you have something like a roller coaster in the air and the aircraft should have high G-forces up, down, left, right, going following this roller coaster. And now that was the most important thing to stop thinking about, OK, you have an adventure, you have a feature, but really thinking about what is its worth in aviation?

5:26What is the value? And that's obviously with fast changing G-forces going up, down, up, down, that's turbulence. And now instead of going up, down on purpose, doing the counter turbulence and using this new feature, this very fast lift generation for cancelling turbulence. And in terms of applications and use cases, both proven and hypotheticals, we look to the future. Andres, talk to me about those because as I understand it, the kinds of fixes that you have developed and advocate for have all sorts of applications. A small aircraft, of course, that can be adversely affected by turbulence, even at much lower altitudes, in advanced systems, but also in the operation of much larger aircraft again was that always built into your objectives that you wanted something that could work sort of across that suite of possibilities or has that been a happy consequence of developing the technology yeah so from the get-go looking into turbulence it was clear the biggest benefit and like the biggest level where you can really improve aviation is just the big big aircraft the airliner the long-haul flights where you have a lot of kerosene a lot a lot of jet fuel being saved by more efficient routing and also flying more direct, flying lighter aircraft and so on.

6:37But obviously, you need to start simple. And that's the most important thing, especially in aviation. It's about safety. It's about economy. So the thing needs to be certified at the end. And it's nice to have a very big vision. But then if you're at 50 percent of certification and money runs out, that's just a big problem. So maybe a nice comparison is a smartphone. The smartphone we have today would never be as complex, as sophisticated as it is, if somebody would develop for 15 years a smartphone and then want to get it to the market. And it needs a lot of funding there. So the most important thing is to have steps between, have already some products in the market where the customer improves your system, the customer gives feedback, the customer already gives you some valuable revenues, then be able to just finance these next complexity steps.

7:22So in this context, we started with very small aircraft, so actually unmanned flight for the very beginning. Then it was a one-seater experimental aircraft. And now the first product that's being certified just at the moment. So the next month it's certified as a two-seater aircraft. 600 kilograms, only two passengers, or one pilot and one passenger. And this is where we start. But the future obviously is way bigger aircraft. And especially, as you already said, in low altitude, being a light aircraft, there is a very big pain for passengers. So a lot of people say, I don't get into the small aircraft.

7:54That's not safe. And actually, you really feel a lot of turbulence. Why? You can compare it to having like a very small boat in rough sea. And down there, you have a lot of turbulence, you have rough sea, and you're sitting in this very small boat. And most of the passengers are used to this big cruising ship flying up there at very calm sea, so actually above the weather. So the bigger the aircraft and the higher you fly, the less impact. On the other side, the bigger the aircraft and the higher you fly, the more sensitive are passengers for this impact. So even a small rumbling really freaks out a lot of passengers not being used to this turbulence that you would have in a light aircraft in low atmosphere.

8:31So there is now from the applications, not only this known light aircraft, that obviously that's not a nice to have, it's a must to really have a big audience. It's also the bigger aircraft that more and more experience turbulence because of this increasing turbulence levels. And then you have this future mobility like flying taxis. You need full trust. Nobody will fly with that, recommending returning customers if that isn't safe and trustable and comfortable to ride. And the same also for electric aircraft as electric aircraft in general aren't able to fly as high as the conventional big aircraft.

9:04So you will experience a lot more turbulence. Let me ask you a little bit about the regulatory environment because, you know, we mentioned actually before we started taping, Monocle is really passionate about progress and innovation across aviation, whether that's cabin design, whether that is new engine technology, actual changes and improvements in aircraft manufacture across the whole suite. One thing that always informs every conversation that I have, Andras, is the challenge of regulation and the primacy of safety. We all know it. We all support that. But you must have had people who said to you, look, I just love the idea, but it's so interminable to try and make progress on getting the requisite certifications that you'll just become frustrated.

9:46Has that been a challenge for you and your team? Because you must face, although we agree with the barriers being there, it must be frustrating. But I don't know. Or has it been less of a problem perhaps than I'm making out to be? So definitely you need a lot of passion to stay on track. And there are a lot of barriers that you need to tackle. but let's see it from a positive side all barriers that you tackled a competition also would need to tackle and on this side certification can also be your friend because nobody will fly with an uncertified system if yours is certified and it's ready to go with that but yes there is a lot to do and also like from the market perspective from the financing perspective also from for the certification perspective do it step by step if you can if you do this new vertical takeoff and landing advanced air mobility, flying taxi, flying drone, or flying taxi with completely new standards, it's not possible.

10:33You need to redesign everything from the scratch. But in our case, we started with a very simple system. So keep it simple and then step by step increase complexity. The simpler, the easier to certify, obviously. And in our context for turbulence cancelling, there are three main ingredients for complexity. One is aircraft size. So the small ultralight two-seater aircraft is way easier to certify than going for a big airliner CS25, so the big category with up to 500, 600, 700 passengers and a lot of tons that could impact ground and so on. So small aircraft for the beginning and increased size with the next steps.

11:09The second is how much counter turbulence are we generating? The more you can impact the system, the more you can influence, obviously, the more you really need to take care that there is no wrong motion, there is no wrong command. For instance, if you have 737 MAX, the MCAS system, that should have been an assistance system to help improve the characteristics. It has had the authority to pitch full down. So it was like a dream runaway, a very bad moment for pilots if your dream just doesn't do anything that you want. And especially then it was designed to re-enable by itself and so on. So a lot of commercial business aspects there.

11:47But from a technical point of view, it had way too much authority for the reliability it had. It was only based on one sensor and so on. So in our context, we have very small flaplets for the beginning. So it's like a retrofitted small control surface on the flap. So you can imagine like the winglets on the wingtips, the small wings reaching out of the wing that you can also put on later with redesigns. We redesign the flap. So the landing and takeoff device, high lift device. if you look out and take off and landing the big thing that gets down that wouldn't be fast enough and it only goes down and not up we don't need to cancel the turbulence in both directions we retrofit a very small control surface there so a flaplet on the flap like a winglet on the wing and that's just limited by design so it's not possible to get too much impact for the beginning later on we can think about even getting into the primary flight controls the elevator the aileron so everything that is really really critical but for now it's just this bumps this going up and down that wouldn't be controllable at the moment.

12:47And then we have the third aspect, and that's guaranteeing the function. We're not guaranteeing the function for the beginning. It's like an assistance system, a comfort feature. It's nice to have. It's like your noise cancelling for a headset. So you hear your music and then there's a noise. You can cancel the noise. But the most important thing is that you can still listen to music if it's some safe thing that you need to do, like controlling the aircraft or controlling a car. So it's just an assistance system. If it fails, you can still do your primary task. Later on, we could even go to guaranteeing the function.

13:17So having full deflections with guaranteeing that we're not overstressing the wing, then you could reduce mass in the wing and a lot of cool things. But that's not what you should start with. So maybe from a hiking perspective in Austria, we have a lot of Alps. You don't start with the biggest mountain. You do the first hike into some small hills and then step by step increase. Yeah, I like that analogy. I just wanted to pick up, Andreas, on that point you made about deployment of this as an assistant. what's the relationship and the potential relationships then with, for example, airframers? You gave a couple of examples just then.

13:50Big companies who, once this tech is proven, presumably will look to integrate earlier in their processes the technology. Is that then about building partnerships? Is it about proof points and use cases initially? Are there, I don't know, I presume you have to think you've obviously got lots of patented technology, But are there aspects of it that you need to be defensive about to stop others from kind of gently borrowing from or incorporating into their designs? How does that fit into this bigger ecosystem? One, of course, especially on large aircraft, is dominated by really only a handful of global players.

14:24Yeah, so definitely we follow an ecosystem approach. So we focus on two main things. One is the system designs, really understanding what is the easiest way to get turbulence cancelling enabled in an existing airframe. So we're not talking about future aircraft in 20 years, what you could do, like you need to do it with hydrogen, for instance, that's not existing yet. How could you do it? But we want to make the whole aviation industry turbulence free, get turbulence cancelling in almost every aircraft type. And so we're really focusing on retrofit. for retrofitting that's this design aspect and the other what we deliver is like the system software so really the logics the controls so how to get from your sensor inputs to the optimum output to not feel the turbulence anymore and on the other side be safe on the other side not interfering with the pilot controls or the pilot if he wants to pull up push down the aircraft is still enabled we're not cancelling out the pilot control only the turbulence that's a lot of know-how where we We have patents where we are like know-how leader and we want to stay there.

15:24So we're even doing research projects for things that won't bring us money for the next years, but later on. So that's the only way I think to be successful in the long term. And that's also my personal goal to have 20, 30 years of step-by-step improving the system. And on the other side, then you need to have a lot of other ingredients, like you said, changes of the airframe. For instance, now this flap bed installation, the flap, that's nothing where we should like put additional innovation risk on ourselves. There are existing companies who really know how to do that. We have requirements how much deflection we need, how big the size of this flap that should be.

15:59And they are experts how to bring control surfaces into existing structures. The important thing is here with the flaplets. So with this added control surface on the flap, it's very easy to retrofit because we don't interfere with the wing. It's only this flap, the high lift device that's existing, that needs to get exchanged. On the other side, you could even get into digital control. So for instance, the flying taxis, they are highly digital already. They have a lot of servos where you just can give an added signal on there, where you still need to have to focus on this limited by design aspect.

16:31So it's not full deflection that we can command, but only some added signal. And that can be disabled again if it's just a comfort feature, not guaranteed for now. So we have three things, I think, that would put us in a very defensible position. One is the patterns, everything that is directly protecting us. The other is just know-how leadership together with certification. So actually certification really is also your friend if others need to certify. And the third is the ecosystem. So for others who want to do exactly the same like us, it should be always the better option to just take our already proven solution, demonstrated flight hours, having a lot of engineering done instead of reverse engineering and trying to, with other means, putting money into fighting against us than working with us.

17:18And for customers, it always should be that we have just the best solution. Yeah. And then the early adopter advantage pays off. Just on that point about customers, I often ask entrepreneurs, Andres, on this program, oh, you know, what's your favorite sort of means of business development? You go out to meet consumers. Do you like brick and mortar retail? Obviously, this is a very different proposition. I know that you will be appearing at a show in Germany soon. Is that the kind of way that you like to get out there, tell this story? Obviously, we're very lucky you're telling us the story today.

17:46But how do you go about growing that network with your team? Because it's a different kind of proposition, isn't it? How you sort of sell the idea to the world? Yeah, I think the most fascinating and positive thing about being a founder is that you do a lot of different stuff and it's really not boring. On the other side, it's really not boring also in the sense of you have to do a lot and have to do everything because it's just your company and it's not that you're just part of a big corporate and then you're doing just your specialized stuff. So at the end, it comes always down, entrepreneurship, innovation, to selling and delivering.

18:18So you sell and deliver, you sell and deliver, and you shouldn't do only selling without delivering. And also you shouldn't do a lot of engineering, so delivering without selling. So do a lot of small iterations. And I think the very first person to sell your idea, you need to sell your idea is yourself. So really be convinced yourself that it's worth it. Know why you do it. The next thing is to sell it to a team to really convince some people who have nice jobs, who really could do a gentle career, everything settled, and then to do this roller coaster with you. And obviously also financing, so convincing investors.

18:52And I would say it's very similar if you get the basic idea and you know what you want to sell. You just then you need to consider who you're talking with. What is the perspective? you don't want to oversell or undersell. So really just tell them what will be the ride. And then if they ain't, you're going to ride with them. And I think the most important at the end is to get actual customer revenues. So for us, we have three main goals or main steps that we're taking at the moment. So the first system is getting certified. That's this Shark 600 aircraft where we want to sell it to a lot of end customers who actually pilots, aircraft owners who then get retrofitted a turbulence cancelling system.

19:32Then we want to also transfer this system to very similar aircraft types. So other OEMs, other aircraft manufacturers that then also get certified for the system. Then again, selling to the end customers, to pilot owners, to the pilots and aircraft owners. And obviously most important is also selling to bigger aircraft to really have this mission at the end accomplished that we make the whole aviation industry turbulence free. and there it's also a lot about funding a lot about certification so we applied for a very big EU funding and there it's again a lot of sales so you have sales in documents you have sales at fairs you have sales in your own team and the most important thing is that you really have something valuable and I think turbulence cancelling brings a lot of value to aviation so it's getting easy and everybody understands so turbulence everybody understands what it's about and what is the purpose there yeah just on a personal point and you've you've kind of alluded to this a couple of times, Andres, you've talked about your own passion for flying and you hold various different licenses, I know.

20:31And some of your colleagues, likewise, is it your head of business development, I think is a sort of 20 year veteran flyer as well. Just on that sort of personal human side, can you just go back over that and tell us what it's like, you know, when you're flying, I don't know, any aircraft, when you have that moment of, I don't know, is it tranquility, that distance from the hustle and bustle down at ground level? Just tell me a little bit about that. You know, when you talk to colleagues who are also flyers, how do you talk about the passion that you share? Yeah, so I would summarize it in complete freedom.

21:04So you're up there, you're having a bigger horizon, you really see everything from a different perspective. And actually, that's what that is what I love about flying is exactly also getting at the edge of what is possible and not just accepting that we get rumbled around. So that would be like driving in a car and it's off-road and just accepting it's off-road, buckle up and so on. But really look at how can we pave the road or how can we have some system that's now specifically turbulence cancelling, but also with aerobatics, what is the dynamics that an aircraft actually can do? So flying from New York to London, that's a nice flight, 10 hours or eight hours, almost straight.

21:47If you do aerobatics, It's rather 15, 20 minutes of completely enjoying what an aircraft can do. And maybe let's compare it to birds. If you look out there, I think there are a lot of birds who just enjoy what they do. And that's also one of my main missions I see. In aviation, there are a lot of unnecessary fear of flying people. And there's also unnecessary flight shaming. So if you really compare what it's about, you need to have a wider view. and you always have the one extreme and you really see it black or the other extreme and you really see it white. And now for flight shaming, for instance, if you have it on the black side, it would be flying just for having a shopping weekend in New York and then again in Dubai and in Venice and all that private chat.

22:32I think obviously, yeah, you should question, is this the purpose for flying and are those resources really justified compared to children not having water, not having heating and so on. On the other side, if it's a flight that you really take for ending a war, for signing a contract and for having this very important relations that you need for that, I think we can agree that that's very good purpose for mobility. So in general, really ask about what is the purpose for mobility, if it's about mobility. And on the other side, a very well-trained pilot, even doing aerobatics in a well-maintained aircraft, well-tested, it's just you're enjoying what aviation can do, what birds enjoy out there and that in a very safe manner without being ashamed.

23:18That was Andras Galfi, the CEO and founder of Turbulence Solutions, and you can find out more about the tech and what it can do by heading to turbulence-solutions.aero. Or if you're anywhere near Lake Constance until April 12th, why not say hello to the team in person at the world's leading trade show for general civic and private aviation, Aero Friedrichshafen 2025.

23:52Greg Brunson-Pitts is the CEO of Advanced Aviation Team, a charter aircraft brokerage based in Arlington, Virginia, just outside Washington, DC. Greg's company helps clients from busy executives to high-profile individuals find the right aircraft for every trip, using deep industry relationships and a highly personalized approach to private travel. Our Chris Lord caught up with Greg to hear about how the industry is changing and how Greg's time managing travel for the White House shaped the way he runs his business today. They kick things off discussing Greg's role getting presidents and their teams off the ground.

24:30So I did a couple of things at the White House. I did presidential advance, which is to travel around the country in the U.S. and then travel around the world, setting up public events anytime the president would speak in public. And then I was director of the White House travel office, where I managed the charter aircraft that flies in tandem with Air Force One, that carries the White House press corps, Secret Service, and staff that don't fit on Air Force One. So anytime the president would travel domestically and internationally, I managed that operation, including the charter aircraft, the passports, the hotels, the ground transportation.

25:06You know, it gave me quite a foundation for not only coordinating logistics, but also working in the business world and witnessing people and being around people who were sort of at the pinnacle of their career at the White House was really something that is priceless. And, you know, of course, working with the White House means you've got to think about security. You've got to think about confidentiality. You've got to think about also dealing with people who expect very, very smooth service and every T and I to be crossed and dotted. And I suppose that is so important when you get into that world of private travel.

25:36You know, right now, there's an interesting moment happening, isn't there, in the world of private jets, which is there's two big forces at work. One is you see a decline in the kind of jet card membership, which used to be the case that you would buy ahead and buy in bulk a big batch of private air transportation, which would secure basically big corporate clients and individuals who needed to get around from one side of the US to the other or otherwise. You also see the emergence of these hop on, hop off sort of semi-private services. What does that mean for your business as a brokerage? How are you seeing things change?