Beyond the Vines and Yondr

0:11Hello and welcome to the Entrepreneurs on Monocle Radio, the show all about inspiring people, innovative companies and fresh ideas in global business. On today's programme, we'll head to Singapore via Jakarta as we meet the co-founder of a multidisciplinary design studio rooted in the arts. We were able to bridge the functionality of design, but yet adding that element of fun where I sort of picked up when I was a kid from growing up with family of artists. And later, we'll explore the virtues of phone-free spaces with the man who literally started a movement to lock up people's phones. Walking around in the world with a computer in your pocket changes the human experience.

0:51It's a new experience. There was no precedent for that. This is The Entrepreneurs with me, Tom Edwards.

1:04You're listening to The Entrepreneurs, and I'm delighted to say we're kicking off the show with company here in studio too. I'm joined by Monocle's editor-in-chief, Andrew Tuck. Hi, Andrew. Hello. Welcome to The Entrepreneurs. Oh my God, this is one of those things I've been dreaming about for years. Yes, yes, I'm absolutely sure of that. Now, you returned recently from Jakarta looking, I'm going to say, Andrew, looking delighted. And keen-eyed listeners and readers will have perhaps read your column in the Weekend Edition newsletter about what an amazing time you had there. But just quickly remind us why Monocle was there and why it was such an illuminating time for you.

1:43So every year we do a conference called The Chiefs, which is about leadership and how you run a good business and how you step up to be the leader of an enterprise that's trying to do interesting things. And this year we took it to Jakarta and it was a bit of a revelation. I think what's fascinating for us is normally when we do an event, for example, if we do an event in Paris, you can bet like 80 % of the people have been to Paris before. So after the talks, maybe they sneak off to go to their favorite shop or their favorite bar, catch up with a friend. Lots of people coming to Jakarta had simply never been there before.

2:16And what really amazed me was that people coming from the Philippines, for example, just a couple of hours flight away, they had never been to Jakarta as well. It's got this reputation as being traffic snarled, which it is, but a place only for business, maybe a little bit inaccessible in some ways, but it's not. And that was the revelation that there is so much going on there. So we had an extraordinary time. And I don't know, it was just one of those places that people, as they were leaving on that final day, were like, oh my God, I'm coming back. This was a moment of change for me. And you were one of those first timers, am I right in saying?

2:53A big old Jakarta virgin. And I lost my status there in the city in big style. I'm very proud of it too. And lots of other people, as I said, were in the same boat as me. So, yeah, really enthralling for me. And even the challenges were kind of exciting. It is a city where there's very little public transport. There is a rapid bus transport system, but most people are in their cars. Or, as like me, jumping on the back of a Gojek scooter, which you can get through an app. So people work around all the situations, but it's a huge city. Some 20 million people in the greater metropolitan area for Jakarta.

3:33and 280 million people in Indonesia. So you realise the scale of the country, the opportunities, very young country. So yeah, exciting being there. Huge dynamism. And we're going to hear from one of the speakers who actually hails from Singapore, but I believe you and Sophie Grove, our good colleague, chatted to. This was Rebecca Ting, who's the co-founder and creative director of Beyond the Vines. We're going to hear from her in just a second, but in a quick line, Andrew, just tell us what struck you about chatting to her and why her story was so compelling? Well, let's just be clear that she said a really interesting thing.

4:05She said, look, everyone thinks of Asia as being one market. She said, actually, the thing we all have in common is we eat rice. Beyond that, it's all much more complicated. So she's coming from a small city state, very easy to get around, rules and regulations all in place, actually quite an expensive place to run a business from. So you have to be super confident about what your brand is going to do in comparison with someone like Jakarta, where the rules and regulations are there, but people don't quite understand them, even when they're locals. Impossible on the logistics front, even if people do, as I say, find a way around those things.

4:43So very different stories. But again, she had an amazing brand story to tell. And I think we're going to hear about that now. Let's hear from Rebecca Ting. Here's first of all, Sophie Grove asking the questions. This panel is entitled Singapore Style and you hail from Singapore, but it's also about navigating the region and that real sense of how retail is emerging, how you're engaging with your clients, how you're really building something of a cultural movement around the brand. But I've got a really basic question. Why Beyond the Vine? What's the story in the name? Because I always imagine when you chose the name for a fashion brand, you choose something really short because then you don't have to stitch so many letters.

5:23It's cheaper. You've got to fit the big label in your bag. So you went long. Yeah, we went long. Well, I think firstly, we do see ourselves a bit like a design studio, actually, at heart. I know it's hard to believe we are quite a scale, but we are really quite a design studio at heart. We do everything in-house. So why beyond the vines? Vines are very, it's an informal word for clothing. And it's also a very resilient plant, actually. So I think when we wanted to build a studio and build a brand, we wanted to do something that we thought was beyond that. There's lots of brand owners in here, people thinking how you name a company and a business, and we're going to be talking about that a little bit later on.

6:01But did you go through a long list of names thinking, maybe this is okay? Or how quickly did you, because with Monocle, for example, we were coming right up to the deadline of choosing a name or we hadn't got a name and we're going to have to tell people what the magazine was called. And it came to Tyler in a moment of inspiration. I would say having a bit of wine helps with the naming process. I don't know how else to tell you that. So you could have been called Sauvignon Blanc. It could be. It could be. it could be and I think it's a really interesting point to say that this is very much a company that is come from arts come from subculture you hail from Singapore but your whole family are from the art world your father's a very notable artist you know selling all around the world tell us about how you art has been part of your world and how this brand sprung from that very fertile territory that's a big part of Singapore, in fact?

6:56Well, Singapore is not, well, we're getting there, but I think art is not something that is, sadly to say, it's not a priority, actually. So I think growing up in a family of, my dad was an artist, we grew up in an art business, he ran an art business for the last 30 years. I think growing in that and seeing how much they've struggled within the Southeast Asia region as well, I think it sort of sparked something, maybe a bit of a mission, if anything, to feel like we want to be able, in my generation, we want to be able to contribute what that looks like back to this part of the world so I think that maybe started from there growing up with an artist in the house you don't see the world the same as maybe if you grow up with someone in in the you know going to be in a banking background or tea for example right the house is generally there's a lot of color everywhere I mean I guess it comes out for us quite a bit yeah so we I like to think that we tried we were able to bridge maybe where the functionality of design is, but yet adding that element of fun where I sort of picked up when I was a kid from growing up with family of artists, probably.

7:58Can you tell me the use of color? Because it's interesting. We had a chat last night and you said, be wary of talking about the Asia consumer because that's a big territory you're talking about there. And can you give us a bit of insight? You gave me a few clues to how you have to think about color as you market it from Bangkok to Singapore and beyond? Yeah, I mean, we currently have a presence in Singapore. I mean, we're based in Singapore. We have presence in Bangkok, Philippines, in Indonesia as well, and also Japan, Hong Kong. So we do have presence quite a bit in this region. Color is a very, how do you say, it matters in culture.

8:36I mean, the Southeast Asian culture is actually very, very colorful, all the way to Asia even. So the likes of Bangkok, you don't, I mean, correct me if I'm wrong for the Thais in the room. The orange tones don't do well in Thailand because the monks wear orange. So generally people stay away from those colors. Indonesia, generally the pastel tones do better because it's, you know, the women prefer a softer. And then in Japan, where we also have presents, generally the colors are quite, you know, it's either super, super vibrant or it's very minimal in colors, very neutral. So color plays a large part in how we see design, we see life.

9:10Can I ask one other question about the color, which is, when I was speaking to Jaime about the book business, he said, you know, it's a pretty, it comes true, the idea that you make 80 % of your revenue from 20 % of your product. So he has a format where he actually just puts 20 % of the product rather, the best sellers. He has a small format. When I see that array of colors, I know that in the UK, when you go to a sale time, all the grays and whites are gone being British. But there's a lot of things and yellows and greens left. Do you do it because you sell that whole range of color? Or is it part of the brand?

9:45You think, oh my God, when I go in the store, I want to see this huge range of colors to get people excited about the potential of the brand. Or do they all sell? Well, I think maybe taking a step back. I think maybe how we approach what retail looks like comes from a perspective of play. I think when they come to the store, we want people to feel like they came in, they had a good time. That's how we connect, right? With the community, we run community activations. We do crazy things from the perspective of play because we feel that's the way that people connect best. To us, play is also without having a product too adorned.

10:19A color is a huge part of what that looks like. It evokes emotions. Coming back to your question, with bold colors, having to sit down, I mean, good that you brought up the 80-20. We actually, with that one SKU, actually, we've gone with maybe in the last three years, I think we've had one million units in the last three years from one design, which is extremely, is a very sustainable approach actually to that. So, but it cuts across all colors. Because I think as a brand, we don't just champion what the neutrals are. The energy of the brand is extremely vibrant. And people who dress quite monopromatic do feel like suddenly they feel like, I don't mind a cobalt mat.

10:57I don't mind maybe a hot pink one in season, you know, in summer and spring. So I think for us, it works a bit that way. I'm aware there's this sort of carnival of images coming up behind me. And we should say that your activations are very, that there is a sense of, you know, the festivity behind the brand. For instance, actually tonight, there's an activation in Jakarta, which is the Padel tournament I've been hearing about, and there's a best dress competition. So give me a sense, how do you engage in that way? And do you think that that's a vital part of really wooing and seducing the younger South Asian client community to get them to feel like they're part of a movement, a subculture, and that's the way you've built the brand?

11:44Give us an insight into some of these wonderful happenings. Well, everybody loves to play, right? I think if anything, maybe as we age, we forget how to play. right we forget how to get our hands dirty we forget we want to go out to a songkran event in thailand with massive water trucks and just spray random strangers we forget how to play so i think as a brand that's something that we keep very very close because i think that's the best way to connect with a stranger right so whether it is in like the event tonight just coincidentally actually and it's well i mean it is also quite uh the interest is definitely picking up in this region right that sport super over subscribed so if you want to come you can come and watch the game we do have a tournament because we decided you know what southeast asians were very competitive asians right we're very good about them so we said well nobody just wants to play we should put a prize put a tournament somebody needs to win something so that's the and then the best dress so people come and then go i don't know what what they're going to wear but there's also a best dress thing they can wear whatever they want come in an afro like the pig in a wig they can come in whatever they want to play pedal you know so that's how we feel we communicate and stay very close to the pulse on the ground.

12:50And just another interesting thing you do around play is customization. Because again, I admire you doing it, but it's a complicated business adding customization because that's time and people will pay a little bit more, but they don't want to pay a huge amount more for their play. How do you manage that as a process in your stores? We do that maybe on a fixed time frame sometimes. they usually run about two weeks, maybe each quarter. People come in the camp for it because it comes for a short while and it goes. The whole customization component comes really from a social behavior. I think that with the generation getting more and more wanting to be vocal and wanting to have a certain opinion about what they want to say, what they want to look like, the customization component is something that brands cannot forsake.

13:42You don't have to have it maybe in your USP, because obviously that is also quite a nightmare in terms of managing SKUs and all of that stock on hand. But having the component of customization gives the consumer a voice. And as brands, we don't just want to be saying stuff to people, right? Because we're speaking all the time. It's a very noisy space. But as a brand, we don't just want to be speaking. We want them to speak back, right? That's what a community is about. If they're not speaking back to you, that's not a community, you know? So I think for us, having that component of customization, which is this is what we do this is the product but you get to put your style onto it and your personality onto it in what we feel is controlled to a certain extent because we don't want them to go crazy and that it goes out and you know that thing looks a little bit strange so we control what those components are but yet at the same time they get to express you know personality in this day and age you know which is a huge part to the retail and design and space it's a lot of our expression actually i wanted to wind back the clock to 10 years ago when you were really starting out and look at how you've navigated the kind of terrain in Singapore, because I know a lot of people in the audience are based there.

14:49It's quite a saturated market. There is so much corporate kind of heft there, but also just a lot of difficulty as a business, as a young brand. How did you do that? And how does that also compare to launching in Bangkok, where you have a very strong footing now? I think as a brand and as a business, is we must meet a need, right? We must meet a need. We must be solving problems because if you're not solving problems, then it is maybe just wanting to put stuff out. So for us, it just happens that our medium is in that fashion space, but we don't see it through the lens of fashion. We see it through the lens of design.

15:28We solve problems with it. You know, what a backpack looks like, it's convertible, it's lightweight, it's super ultra resistant, but yet it's very cute and pretty and, you know, all of that. So we feel like we're solving problems for the current user who wants everything quick and compact. And, you know, starting in that space 10 years ago, honestly, Singapore is not the easiest in retail business. Rents are high, wages are high, population is small. It's not smart, in a sense, if you would pick any industry, right? Retail is a really tough space. But at the end of the day, I think if you're meeting a need, then people want it, right?

16:03If you're meeting a need, they want it. Making it cute, obviously, helps. You could have just been a design studio, or you could have been a design studio that makes clothing that you wholesale, but you've taken the whole chain, which I think for many people would be, oh my God, what have I done here? What made you decide as a brand? I still ask that question every day. My husband is in a crowd. We work together. We've been working together for the last 10, more than that. Yeah, we do ask ourselves that also. But I think the beauty about that is to be able to control, draw to store. because at the end of the day, we don't just want to be designing and then we're letting it go to someone else, you know, in our opinion, right?

16:43We want to be able to customize what that journey looks like, right? From where we design a product to everything is done in-house. We shoot all our campaigns in-house, all our stores are designed in-house. The marketing team is in-house. Everything is done in-house, which at the end of the day, then you can sort of control what that journey looks like for the consumer. and then it becomes a bit more like it is a way of life for us more than it is just about the product, actually. Can we just do a few quick statistics? So who is the customer? What's their age? And we see lots of guys queuing up here as well.

17:17So what's the split? It's a common question to ask about demographic, especially in the fashion space. But I think because we don't approach it from a fashion point of view, we have had people in the store come, they're six. They come in, they want a little cute thing. but there's also people who are in their 60s who come in and they want the exact same thing so for us we see what we do as a brand from the lens of design i'm not going to design a chair and say is this person white or black is this a male or a female right it is how it feels right when i sit that's how it feels the same for us when we carry this product how does it make you feel you know what problems are we solving in your lifestyle in day-to-day right so that's how we approach it and therefore when you go to the stores actually if you've been to any of our stores you would realize whoa like the demographic is extremely wide there is males females young old we appeal to locals we appeal to tourists so as a brand we're in that fashion space but we're really a design studio at heart actually and price what's the resistance on price what's the product your team comes up with you like yeah it's great but that's too far north for me and actually that's too far south what's that what's the sweet spot for you that's a very good question so i think for For us, because as a brand, our vision is good design, accessible to all.

18:28And what the accessible word then means is that it needs to balance with where design is, right? So for us, coming from that point of view, the perceived value is very, very important to the consumer. If I look at a product, I think, okay, I think this is about this price, right? Then I take the brand as a whole. And what is the experience I'm giving to the customer? What is their brand equity? How do they associate with the brand? Because if they look at a product, for example, if I look at a sheet of paper like this, this is worth a couple of cents, maybe, right? But if there's obviously your writing on that thing and you're signing it off, that value becomes different.

19:03So for us, we don't price it based on just the product. We see it as a whole. It obviously needs to manage in terms of cost, but that comes midway. For us, it's perceived value first. And last quickfire one, you don't use your name on the brand. but when I look at all the interviews, the work you do, how much are you the brand? When people come into the stores, do they want to dress like you, have your life? How much of a brand ambassador do you feel you have to be every day? I have to say, actually, I am 98 % introverted. So as much as possible, I try to, you know. So that part becomes tough.

19:40But I understand that with a brand, you need a face to the brand. It needs a face, it needs a soul, it needs pulse. If not, it's a beautiful store people go in, but what is missing is the pulse. You don't feel the soul of the brand. That part is important, which is why I guess a lot of designers put their name on it. But what we're trying to do, and also because we come from a heart of being a design studio, we feel it is possible to carry that heartbeat to the stores, to the people representing the brand, to the people working at the brand, without me having physically hang out and sign stuff and take pictures.

20:11So I think we managed to sort of infuse what that Beyond the Vines way of life is to the crew as well. And from them, they carry that spirit on to the stores and to the community, actually. That was Rebecca Ting, the co-founder and creative director of Beyond the Vines, chatting to Sophie Grove and our own Andrew Tuck at the Chiefs Conference in Jakarta a little earlier. If you want to find out more about what Rebecca does and was talking about, then head over to beyondthevines.com.

20:49you're listening to the entrepreneurs graham dagoni is the founder and ceo of yonder a company that creates patented lockable phone pouches designed to foster phone free spaces in schools live events courtrooms and beyond since launch back in 2014 yonder's become something of a cultural touchpoint in the growing movement to reclaim attention and presence in the digital age, partnering with artists, educators and institutions right around the world. Monocle's Chris Lord wrote about the company in a recent issue of the magazine, and he caught up with Graham to hear about what's new since he first visited Yonder HQ in Los Angeles.

21:26Graham began by telling Chris how the company's evolved. The Yonder pouch is kind of the most visible part of what we do, but what we've been doing for 11 years is creating phone-free spaces. That's what Yonder is as a company. So that concept, that's what we invent is the concept of phone-free spaces and phone-free schools. And in 2014, that term did not exist. So the idea that we would need these protected spaces inside of society, the analog I give is kind of the concept of the national park system here in the US. These spaces that are carved out for being in a place and being there with the people you're doing it with and free temporarily from the tug and pull of modern technology and our hyper-connected society.

22:05That's something that I think has been building and building and then has kind of rocketed in terms of public awareness just in the last couple years. But if you're a day in the life of a student or a patron going to a show, your experience of the honor product is stepping into a space, your phone and your wearable tech goes inside this pouch. When you close it, it's locked, goes back into your pocket. But once you step into that space, it's now an entirely device-free space for the time you're there and all the benefits that come with that. Tell me about those benefits, Graham, because you're somebody who believes not just in the importance of phones, free spaces when it comes to, you know, legal settings like courtrooms and so on, but also something about the way people connect.

22:45You believe that there's something very important about having no distractions, if you like, and what that does in a room, especially when it comes to, you know, comedy, music performances. Just talk me through that, why that's important. Well, I'd say the underlying premise is the same across all spaces. The way it manifests and the benefits in a school are slightly different than you would say at a comedy or a large live music venue like Madison Square Garden. But the principles are the same in the sense that my thesis in 2014 was that with the advent of smartphones, but really all new digital technology, these things were radically new.

23:20And there were going to be a lot of benefits and a lot of unanticipated consequences. Those are related to issues of privacy, but mostly related to the idea, especially for digital natives, of walking around in the world with a computer in your pocket changes the human experience. It's a new experience. You have endless information available to you. You have things that atomize your attention and your interpersonal relationships. And I felt like there was no precedent for that. This was going to be fundamentally new. So when you go into a venue as an adult, let's say, and you step into Madison Square Garden and there's 20 ,000 people there, you know, of course, there's the experience of people having their phone up in the air and video recording and that kind of tarnishing the experience for everyone else.

24:00You have the issue of the performer not feeling free to, let's say, express themselves and worry about those bits of their comedy bit being decontextualized and eviscerated on the Internet. But for me, maybe most importantly, you have the sense of if everyone reaches down just one time to send a text in a venue or to take a quick photo and you magnify that 20 ,000 times, what you get is kind of these pinpricks in the roof of the building. And that energy, kind of in those thought waves, leave the building and they don't really come back. and that kind of defeats at the base level the reason that we go to these live and shared experiences which is to be swept up into the shared mood in the presence of of great art and that i think is a really foundational really important thing for society it cuts across all economic political demographic divides and it's a unifying experience that's that's fundamental you talked about going out there it's interesting as an entrepreneur you are somebody who believes in going out and talking about this product still, aren't you?

24:58You're still out there, you know, in keeping with the sort of in-person idea that Yonder is based on. You get out and you talk to people. That is important as sort of the business model almost in a way of Yonder, isn't it? A hundred percent. It's how we're constructed as a company is as many people as possible are out on the ground in schools, at venues all the time. And I try to do that as well because I feel like it's a tremendous strength for us and for me personally, because you know what's happening. You talk to people on the ground. you understand their concerns, you have a very visceral understanding of the problem.

25:29And so when you hear a teacher talk about kids eating more lunches at lunchtime because they're not afraid anymore of being filmed or recorded and posted to the internet, those are the kind of tidbits you can't get through surveys. You have to be there. You have to see it in the situation to know. Anyone listening to this, Graeme, will hear the passion in your voice for the cause, I think, which it is a cause that sits behind everything that you're talking about here. When you set out, at what point did you think, you know, not only can I believe in this as an idea, but I could turn it into a business?

26:00Well, if you go back to 2014, I mean, I started the business in the back of my camper. I was rolling around to 10 schools every day and two or three venues every night in an old Toyota Dolphin, 1978 Toyota Dolphin. And if I thought I could have made and influenced the cultural and social change I wanted by standing on a street corner and shouting at people, I would have done that. I kind of fell backwards into business because it was the vehicle that I felt like I could get the message out and create a concrete solution or touch point for people to relate to the problem. So even now, business is far less interesting to me than the cultural impact Yonder's having.

26:35It's just that Yonder as a business has facilitated and allow us to kind of expand our influence and get the ideas out there. So I barely see myself as an entrepreneur. To me, Yonder is my whole worldview. It's my kind of passion all wrapped up into one. And so it's very stimulating for me that we get to play in so many different spaces and I get to meet so many different types of people. But the central theme is that the role of technology is this through line that runs through so many cultural, political and economic issues. And I think yonder is squarely in the center of a lot of those. Your offices are in Venice Beach, just in Los Angeles.