How to turn industry know-how into a business

0:11Hello and welcome to The Entrepreneurs on Monocle Radio, the show all about inspiring people, innovative companies and fresh ideas in global business. Today's programme is all about turning industry know-how into a business. First, we'll meet a former fashion magazine editor who built on her experience in publishing to launch her own women's wear brand. I'd never negotiated on a store until I did it. I'd never done a fundraise until I did it. I think sometimes there's a bit of blind confidence and definitely jump in with both feet and then work out how to swim once you're in the water. And later, I'll be joined by Monocle's Natalie Theodosi to hear all about business trends she's spotted during the various fashion weeks she's been attending.

0:52Natalie, what do you have for us? We will start in Milan and look at the ever-evolving events we're seeing there and then move on to Paris where we saw a real return to decadence. This is The Entrepreneurs with me, Tom Edwards.

1:14You're listening to The Entrepreneurs. Pip Durrell is the founder of With Nothing Underneath, a brand she launched in 2017 with the goal of creating the perfect women's shirt, one as versatile as anything available to men. After a career in publishing, Pip turned her focus to designing timeless, high-quality staples with effortless style, starting with a reinvention of the classic boyfriend shirt for women. Since then, she's built a brand inspired by British heritage and modern simplicity, opened her first shop in London's Belgravia and expanded the product range. Our Laura Kramer caught up with Pip to hear about the line's impressive expansion.

1:52Laura began by asking how it all started. At the time, I was working at Condé Nast. So the idea came about when I was at Vogue and then I went down to Tatler, where I was their jewellery editor and I had been mood boarding the whole time. My Pinterest was all shirts and I sort of the idea kept going and I think I just thought, oh, why don't I just try this? And I think interestingly, it's because I'd moved from fashion into jewellery and I wasn't loving the jewellery aspect. And so I think I was, the shirts were sort of a way of keeping the fashion part going. But I didn't really, it was a very casual setup.

2:32There was no business plan. There was no structure. We weren't even legally formed on Companies House by the time I was selling the first shirt. So I think technically illegal. But no, so I was working full time elsewhere and then sort of made a few, sold a few and went from there. So it was quite a casual launch, if that makes sense. Oh, yeah, definitely. We hear it all the time too. So you're in this creative industry, you're around all these items and you're kind of like, where's the thing that I want? Exactly. Exactly that. And I think that in a lot of ways it was definitely a whim and, you know, I was young and lots of energy and ideas.

3:10And I just thought, oh, let's try this. It was never, I never, never, never in a million years thought we'd be here. But yeah, as you say, I was in the hub of fashion. Working at British Vogue was, you know, some of the most formative years of my career. everything I learned and understanding really what was on offer because I really did know every brand you know in each category sort of high fashion couture high street vogue covered it all so it was a really amazing place for me to sit and see what I viewed as a gap one of the things I love the most about shirts is that everyone can make it their own so it's not like this is in or this is out this is fashionable this is not everyone can wear a shirt differently.

3:53And so therefore, it's not a trend. And I think with your shirts, too, correct me if I'm wrong, there's such a classic style that it can really be played with, isn't it? Definitely. And also now that we've expanded with multiple shapes and colors and sizes and everything, there really is, I mean, I know it's so cliche, it's something, there is something for everyone. So I think that's the crux point of the business is that wide appeal. And so let's jump into the shirts then tell me what you wanted and how it's maybe different or exactly how you imagined it honestly I never imagined anything so I think I couldn't possibly have fathomed where we'd be now but I definitely started just thinking shirting and I launched in in just cotton poplin in three colorways blue white and blue and white stripe and one shape the boyfriend so it was just about that shirt being right for everyone.

4:48That was, you could wear it to work. You know, boardroom to beach was a big catchphrase for us at the beginning. Now, of course, we'll say, you know, we've got linens and hemp and summer materials, and then we've got poplins and tensils, more work materials. But I think the main crux of this is that the idea being that men's shirting was a very, very broad category. You had those companies, the Charles Tirretts, that were mid level and they really looked at everything a man wanted. They looked at all the different sort of aspects of men's working life and casual life. And then they offered a huge array of that.

5:24And I thought, hang on, women want shirts too. We've just never, no one's ever really thought about delving into that. And so I really was just approaching it, shirting from the way that the menswear collections had been doing it. Also, it's a funny one because I did it on my own for three years. So in a way, we've been, I suppose I don't know, a functioning company, a company with employees for four years. How many employees do you have now? In head office, we have 25. And then we have our store. So our current store is in Belgravia, Elizabeth Street. And it was a total risk. I mean, this is the thing with startups.

6:00It's a very fine line between taking risks and and making decisions that you've really thought through, you know, decisions based on numbers and facts. And I think that the Elizabeth Street store, I'd done the numbers up to the point of knowing we would break even. There was no way we couldn't, really, unless we were going to be in serious trouble. So my view was, let's open it. Let's legitimize the business. Also, this is a very different time. This was 2021. So post-COVID, we didn't know if when another lockdown was coming you know in the UK obviously there were the mini lockdowns were still coming about and retail was extremely precarious so some would say it was a very stupid idea to open a store whereas my view was that rents were very low and let's take the risk so I took a store it's a really nice like pretty small square footage so not a huge risk got a good rate rate on the rent and went for it and it has exceeded our expectations we are wildly profitable through it it's been a huge success story for the brand.

7:03We welcome a lot of international customers there. And a lot of our core customers who travel to come see the new collections. And, you know, they get our email through their inbox, and then they pop in, and they want to see everything. And one of the big things about that I knew would work for us in retail is one of our biggest USPs is the quality to price point. And so when people touch and feel, they really can't believe how reasonable they are. So I really felt that that should translate well in physical retail. So that was a huge point of opening it. It's been great. And so we knew that retail was a big expansion point.

7:37That was one of the key things for us to fundraise for because we had bootstrapped to now and we never had any investment, any loans, any debt. It was completely bootstrapped from day one. And that's full organic growth. And so that we could even open one store was unbelievable. What are you really focused on right now? Is it going to be more geographic growth? What are you interested in? So geographic growth is a big focus for us, but being focused within that focus. I think the key to scaling steadily and profitably is not trying to do too much too soon. And we have 12 % organic growth in America.

8:17We put no spend there. We give no focus there. And that's really pretty unheard of for a small British brand. So it's really a no-brainer for us. Our key touch points are the obvious. It's New York, Texas, California, and New York's definitely our first focus. And we're going to be doing little touch points there, nothing big. But of course, a New York store is definitely something we'd love to do in the next five years. But for now, the expansion plan is very much the UK in physical retail. By the end of 2025, we're hoping to have three UK stores. We're a direct-to-consumer business. we work with stockists really from a marketing perspective so harrods selfridges we love our presence their liberties and again it's legitimizing so to take harrods for example we have fantastic sell through there we have a really good working relationship with them and and we'll continue to do that so perhaps for us the next touch point in let's say new york might be using a stockist and just using a little bit of physical retail in that direction to legitimize us for the American customer.

9:25A lot of the founders who we speak to on here are talking about, it's been coming up so often about that careful growth, making sure they do it slowly or at the right speed, not slowly for whatever it is. I wondered in this whole conversation with the expansion and hopefully having three stores by the end of the year, what's the brand story then? How are you focusing on keeping true to what the brand is and really also having that community aspect to it? Well, you know what? That's probably one of my hardest tasks at this stage of the business. When we opened Elizabeth Street, I was the only one in senior management.

9:59So I was doing the contracts, working with the interiors, interior designer, working with the team to get stock in. You know, all of that was on my plate. Whereas this time around, I'm not negotiating the contract and something like stock also is not on my plate. But brand and vision, that's fully me. It's one thing that I feel so strongly about is brand protection. I think our sort of, I suppose, tagline is British heritage meets modern simplicity. And I think that that really talks to the modern nature of shirting and clothing and the way that we want to help women dress. But also our influence and British Heritage is a huge part of the brand.

10:45We're influenced whether it comes to material, you know, the wool trousers I'm wearing today, that wool is woven in Yorkshire. All of my inspiration, whether that's from literature or films or just imagery in icons and women, it's all British inspired. And I grew up in the countryside and I think that that's got an impact there. And I think that when we look at our, you look at Elizabeth Street, all the wood in there is British wood. We had the furniture bespoke made and the curtains are organic linens. and I think it's all about taking what our core values, we're a B Corp, we work a lot with organic materials or if not organic, then sustainably sourced in Europe and I take that on a very, very base level, I take that into the infrastructure of the store but also it's about the staff and the feel, making sure that when you walk into our store that you really feel that you've been engaged with as if it was me, as if I could say to you, Like, who are you?

11:48What do you do? What is it that you're looking for? How can I help you get what you need? And that's a really important part of what WNU is about. You know, if someone walks in and they say, hi, I live in Norfolk and I like walking my dogs, I'm going to say, OK, let's find some brush cottons. If someone says, which we get a lot, you know, I've got an interview tomorrow. I'm like, OK, let's get you a tensile. It's not going to crease. You're going to feel sharp. It's going to feel elevated. You're going to feel your best self. And I think that that staff attitude is really, really important. So staff training and having our core values coming out through the people who are in the store.

12:24It's so fascinating listening to you speak about it because the passion is so clearly there. And all I keep thinking is, wow, this woman, you did learn and go along the way. You just started small and you just had to figure it out. It is literally, it's that expression. You're sort of on the rocket ship trying to build the rocket. And that, you know, I've made so many mistakes and I've learned so much. But I think, again, the way we've grown organically and slowly has allowed me to take the time to learn. And then as we've grown, bring in the expertise elsewhere. My COO, I talk about her a lot.

12:58She's my total wing woman. Her background is from big, big fashion houses. She has huge experience in the retail side, whereas I only had a journalistic background. I'd never worked for a brand. So I've learned a lot. And then I think I'm just one of those people who's just really obsessive. And I'm just always learning. I'm just trying to learn constantly, reading, working things out. You know, I'd never negotiated on a store until I did it. I'd never done a fundraise until I did it. So you just, I think, sometimes there's a bit of blind confidence and definitely jump in with both feet and then work out how to swim once you're in the water.

13:36A lot of people say that they wouldn't change anything because obviously that's how they got here. But if somebody's listening to this, what's a mistake that they could learn from from you that you would say to your younger self, maybe don't do that? I'm really, really happy with today. I think a lot of us, especially women, can be very critical of ourselves. And I think sometimes I can say, oh, I wish I'd done this better or different. And then I think, no, no, no. Every single day led to today. And I'm really happy with today. So I think I would definitely say to myself, this is one thing I say to the juniors in my team.

14:05I say, like, slow down. Especially, you know, when I first started magazines, there was no Instagram. You know, there was certainly no TikTok. And I think that a lot of what young people are being told now is, you should be a millionaire at 22. And I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. I think from my perspective, the two greatest things are that someone younger in the industry can bring is a good attitude. The people who have gone the furthest in my business and the people, my peers, who I went in as an intern with and I see being successful now, they're really hard workers. they work extremely hard and they realize that that it doesn't things don't happen tomorrow so I think if I went if I could talk to my younger self I'd just say just slow down but that's okay just relax but you know I don't know that's my personality so maybe I couldn't I think it's great advice and also you don't know what you don't know oh my gosh absolutely and I could definitely say oh my gosh I wish I'd set up the business with more structure but no because it wasn't a business.

15:05It wasn't a business plan. That's for sure. It was, I don't know, a project, something to do in my free time. A passion. Honestly, I look back and I'm like, where did this time come from? I had a full-time job and obviously spent, it was, you know, I was 25. I spent all the time like out getting drunk with my friends. So I don't really know when this, why I thought that this was a good idea, but here we are. You know what? Those girls need inspiration too. I'm right there with you. I have to ask, We've already spoken about what you're most excited about, but in five years' time, what would you want for it?

15:38I think it's what you touched on with geographical expansion. I definitely want to be able to communicate, maintain brand, maintain vision, really strong communication, really strong customer service. That's something we're very, very proud of. And you see it through our reviews. Our customer service team is incredible, and people really feel like they're being dealt with personally because they are. and taking all of that and then taking it into the new regions is a big thing for us this year and then product expansion we launched taylor trousers at the end of last year which are sold out right now hopefully we're getting more stuck at the end of this month we launched a blazer in january which we had a 40 percent sell through in three days which is we're just so proud it's it's really unbelievable and so i think that really is giving us the confidence in product expansion and seeing that people want more of what we're doing.

16:24And we have knitwear coming in February of this year. And so we're really, while shirting, will always remain our core. Product expansion is going to be big for us. So that's really exciting. And I think for now, our team is probably, we've done a big team growth in the last two years. So I think it's about stabilizing that and expanding product and geography. Well, yeah, I did want to talk to you because you mentioned about the customers, about how important feedback is from them. Huge. Yeah, yeah. And I think that's when you're a direct consumer company, that's your bread and butter. That's core.

16:58We have a brilliant team. And we really make sure that our customer service team sit in with us in marketing. So when the phone rings, that could be anyone in the marketing team answering the phone. And I love that. It could be me. It could be anyone. And that means we're directly, quite literally talking to customers. All of our core team have to do shifts on the shop floor. when we do pop-ups, that's me on the shop floor. You know, we're making sure that we are listening to what customers are saying and making adjustments appropriately. And that's amazing that we can. Yeah, and I think that customers feel heard and they feel that they're getting what they want.

17:33That was Pip Durrell, the founder and CEO of With Nothing Underneath. And since Pip stopped by to talk to Laura, she closed on a second location in West London. You can find out more about that and check out the collection by heading to withnothingunderneath.com. That's also where you can find the new knitwear line, which just released this week.

18:02You're listening to The Entrepreneurs. Next up, I'm delighted to say we're joined now by Monocle's fashion director, Natalie Theodosie, down the line from Paris. Natalie, always a joy to speak to you. We just heard from Pip Durrell there on the programme. She was talking about how she was inspired to launch her brand. Well, being inspired by menswear, I guess, and the options available to men that she felt women didn't have. And you're jetting around from one fashion week to another, including taking in the menswear scene in Milan. Maybe let's start there. What did you spot? Any trends to tell us about from Milan?

18:36Exactly. I think you're right, Tom. A lot of people are looking at menswear and the approach to dressing there. and it's influencing fashion across the board. And we've seen it in Milan, even though the schedule was a little bit toned down. There were a few key designers that were missing this season from Fendi to Gucci, but still the heritage Italian brands were all there. And I was especially taken with Xenia, which has really been rebranding and refining its image. and I think they've really nailed it this season. They spoke about a really quintessentially Italian look, a little bit relaxed, very nonchalant.

19:21The creative director, Alessandro Sartori, had told us backstage after the show and a lot of focus on back to the product. So the best materials, perfecting the silhouette and in some ways it's what Pip is doing with her brand rather than the fanfare around the brand and marketing. These designers, I think, are now returning to the core and focusing on material and silhouette and the product that they are giving to the customer. Absolutely. That's really interesting. And you mentioned creative direction. We'll talk a little bit about some of the kind of musical chairs in creative direction in a moment.

19:57But just in terms of other, I don't know, style, nudges, cues, obviously, as I said, you're now in Paris, and this kind of season is still in full swing. You mentioned right at the top of the show, you know, the return of decadence a little bit. Tell us about some more of the, I guess, the kind of the aesthetics or the other thematics that you've been picking up on, Natalie. Yeah, so I think there's been an ongoing conversation. We've been having it on the radio for a while about streetwear, sneakers, athleisure, all those things that were dominating the conversation, especially during and post-COVID, kind of feeling a little bit fatigued and people ready to move on.

20:36But I think this is the season that we really saw designers take it up a notch. And there was a real return to decadence and formality. So at Dunhill, you could see vintage pocket watches, three-piece suits, really indulgent fabrics like corduroys and velvets at Armani as well, which is usually a little bit more toned down. He went all out with really deep green and burgundy velvet suits. So I think everyone is ready to go out, to really dress up much more and enjoy life. And Nathalie, let me ask you a little bit about the emergence of, yeah, not just new aesthetics, but new designers. What's kind of caught your eye in terms of innovation, whether that's new names or anything else?

21:23What's kind of jumped out at you in terms of where the innovation is being driven from? It's not too much of a surprise, but I think this season especially was particularly strong. A lot of the innovation is coming from Japan, here in Paris as well. The strongest shows, the brands that were dominating the showrooms all around Paris during the men's season in particular, were Japanese, some Koreans as well, and European designers are really looking at them. They're going on inspiration trips to Tokyo. They're looking at their approach to craft, to material innovation. So I think they are really dominating the conversation.

22:01And there were brands like Orally, for example, that are growing internationally. And their approach is a bit like we mentioned before, really perfecting silhouette. They're playing with colors and dyeing fabrics using natural techniques. So that's really interesting. and they're really kind of focusing on craft, treating leather so it looks vintage almost and creating a wardrobe that's timeless. They don't think about seasons. They treat their customers more like collectors. A lot of them were telling me that they're obsessed with mid-century furniture. They're collectors of design pieces themselves and they want to create clothes that mirror this approach.

22:41I think that's the direction we're moving into and Japan is the biggest innovator there. Yeah, that's interesting stuff. And that ties into, as you said at the top, Natalie, so many of the themes and the kind of narratives we've been discussing on this programme and throughout the mix on Monocle Radio. Let's talk a bit about personnel. I know this is always more on the business of fashion side, but lots of headlines and it's still kind of moving around, isn't it? The musical chairs continues. A couple of observations from you, Natalie, on, I don't know, where this leaves some of the key protagonists.

23:13You're right, Tom. It's been going on, the musical chairs for a year, and it still hasn't stopped. There have been some announcements. So Mathieu Blasie has been appointed artistic director at Chanel. Louis Trotter has replaced him at Bottega Veneta. So in the next six months, we are going to see some really exciting debuts and things will fall into place. What was interesting now is that a lot of these brands are in slightly a bit of an awkward transition period. They don't know how to communicate or everything is on pause. I went to the Celine showroom, for example, where there was a collection of classics quietly launched in their showroom.

23:56There's very little communication and they're waiting for their new creative director, Michael Ryder, to settle in, design the first collection and present it later in the year, probably in September. So it's a lot of waiting around, which no one really thinks about when they're just speculating about who's going to be the next big appointment. we had one interesting debut by Lanvan which is a brand that has been kind of dormant for the last few years but Peter Copping who used to work at Balenciaga with Demna Vasalia did his big debut and that was a really positive start the menswear still needs to be developed I think a little bit more but there was a very strong women'swear collection that he presented and I think in line with that theme of the season where designers are no longer creating pieces for their own indulgence and based on their own fantasies.

24:53It felt like clothes that related to women's lives, and I think that's really positive. And you could feel the atmosphere in the room was really, really positive. People were excited, smiles in the room after. So one big debut, one exciting debut has already happened, a lot more that we're going to see, but I think we're going to have to wait until September to really understand how the fashion dynamics are really shifting. Well, yeah, Natalie, I think that's really interesting. And of course, we'll be tracking those changes as they unfold across all of Monocle Radio's output and people will be able to read your insights, whether it's in the Monocle Minute or in the magazine, of course, as the months tick by.

25:31But just let's maybe close with a final thought from you on some of the broader direction of travel. You've given us a few of these insights already, Natalie, but in terms of these kind of overarching themes which will inform exactly those conversations that you're talking about. Is it a question of looking at, you know, particular geographies that are going to lead? You talked about Japan in one respect already earlier. Is it about these other themes, you know, sustainability, whether that's of materials, whether that's about ensuring that, you know, the models, the economic models, if you like, behind, you know, the big houses, for example, are robust enough.

26:01What do you think some of the things that our listeners who may be working in this sector or follow it very closely need to keep in mind when we think what is going to define, you know the rest of 25? It's an interesting question and I think this is what brands and executives are now figuring out. It's interesting that you raise the issue of geography. For independent brands I would say it's having to compete with the big groups which have unlimited budgets and very globalized operations. It seems to me at least that the answer has been to stay local and keep things smaller. So it's also a question of redefining what success means.

26:44And I've met a lot of brands lately that want to find their niche. They want to do one thing well, and they want to service their local customer much more than having those aspirations of rolling out 100 million stores, going global, expanding to 20 different categories, which used to be the goal in the past. So people are rethinking a lot, and especially as an independent brand, they are starting to think about both production and the kind of customer that they're servicing in a much more local way. And when it comes to the bigger groups, I think there is a lot of optimism that there was a dip in sales, but it was more of a course correction.