Pullman Voices: Charles Landry

0:01What does a well-designed place do? How does it make you feel? Is it somewhere that's pleasing to the eye? Perhaps it's somewhere functional. Perhaps it's surprising. Maybe the best places are the ones that can spark a dialogue between strangers. This is Pullman Voices, the podcast by Monocle Radio that offers fresh perspectives from cultural pioneers, business leaders and creative minds, challenging how we see and engage with the world. I'm your host, Tom Edwards. Today we're talking about purposeful spaces and our guest is Charles Landry. Culture is who we are. Creativity helps what we can become.

0:40What are humans like? How do they feel things? What are their senses? And when you start from the human being, then you begin to get some of the principles. Charles is an international advisor on the use of imagination and creativity in urban change and has written many books on the subject, including The Creative City, a toolkit for urban innovators. His work seeks to help cities unlock their potential through inventive thinking in order to become resilient, self-sustaining places. We discuss how intentional design can nurture wider culture in the city.

1:18Charles Landry, always an absolute delight. Thanks so much for coming in to see us. And let's start in total abstraction. I want to tap into your imagination. One of the things you've long been fascinated by and preoccupied with There's this idea of imbuing spaces with meaning, with intent, fostering creativity. Do you have an idealised image, a utopian image in your head of what that looks like? Do you need to have that to do the work that you do? Tell me a bit about how you imagine those things. Well, in terms of the work I do, you have to walk the streets. That's the one thing. You have to touch places.

1:56You have to smell them. You have to hear them and all of that. And in that wondering, what I'm really always asking, does this place say yes or no? And I think we're all actually urban designers potentially because we will have an instinct. We instinctively know when places open you out, make you feel generous and places make you crowd in. So that's the first thing I'm asking. The second thing I'm asking, is it both soft and hard? Is the, we've got the physical hard stuff there, but is it softened in various ways? Obviously, one thing is obviously greening and all of that sort of stuff, but not vast parks.

2:34No, no, no, no. Small parks that are sort of manageable and human scale. And human scale is a really interesting point because I think there are various places like Vancouver, which have platforms of five stories and then behind it is a sort of 25, 30 story building. so it doesn't necessarily mean that everything has to be at the same level although for example just walking around here this little area we're in near baker street and so on it's all relatively low and that feels that you as a human being are not necessarily in control but you're not overwhelmed so there's always a balance between that and then there are a couple of other things for me it's also about straight lines curves i like a bit of a curve here or there not everything has to be straight lines.

3:23And then also, do I have cover, either because it's so cold, or it's so amazingly hot. I remember Riyadh recently, thank God, it was so hot and no shade in the financial district, just as an example. Anyway, to summarise, this place would feel coherent and legible. It would be fascinating, fascinating in a sense, there's rich complexity to look at. It would have a sort of hominess, you know, that informality, hygge, all of that stuff, you know, that Danish cosiness and stuff like that, intimacy. So that's roughly what I'm imagining. I like it. And you talk there a few times, you mentioned the word places around here, other places you visited.

4:10When we talk about what makes something, Charles, go from being just a space to a place. Again, is it important to interrogate what that means, what that process or what that development means? What makes a space a place? Is that about the intentionality of the people who convene in said space? Or do you have to think about how you create the place within the space? Well, the answer is yes to both. I mean, there was a guy called Patrick Geddes 120 years ago who was a biologist and one of the first urban planners. And he said, a city is more than a place in space. It's a drama in time. And I like that.

4:55And for me, when I'm using the word space, it just feels something, it's a canvas onto which to put things. But a lot of the places that we think are places are obviously quite old and they've been imbued with memory and stuff and people have been there. There's layers of history, ideally. You can read that in the patina of ages and so on. And then people with their memories, they then say, I remember when I had my first kiss type thing. And then obviously that has meaning for them. So when you're looking at meaning, which I think is the most essential point about a place, what does it mean? It means there are certain things of significance.

5:38and that's why I went back for the moment to memory. Now the interestingly difficult question is here I've got a blank space. How do I create something that has some of those qualities? And I think we're back to what we said in my vision, whatever that was, and it is about intention and we think that human beings are broadly social beings and you want them to connect. Then you've got to find ways of designing it that they bump into each other in various ways. Chilton Street is quite a good example. It's a street which is just very near where we are this moment. And you can see that various people have put out chairs and are people going to sit there or not?

6:22But they probably do. I've seen people sit there even though there's not a cafe and so on. So the intention has to be there. Now, it's more than just the meeting, because obviously we want people to meet. But nowadays, rightly, we want other intentions to show themselves. And cities communicate through every fibre of their being, of course. So in terms of, let's take an example, sustainability, what the hell does that word mean? It means many, many, many things. Yes, we know lots of it is ecological. but you would have to see that and feel it as you're walking along rather than someone saying you better be sustainable now because that tends to put people off and i remember a lovely project in copenhagen which was just near the tivoli park which is central to the city but a little park amusement park and it had this very high tech thing already 15 years ago where it showed if you're on a bike how many people who were on a bike riding they all had rfid things you know which measure what's going on and you could see the energy that was being saved so to me that was an example of powerful intent do you think that charles the the same principles and values underpin say a project to transform a space because some of the examples you give there clearly there's been a grand plan to radically rethink the deployment of this space or how this place comes together.

7:58Others of them, maybe the process is a little more organic, maybe accidental or in some serendipity, certainly around in Marlebone, which is old and new, and it's been buildings here for hundreds of years. Is it the same principles that underscore that process where it works well? Or actually, do you have to say, well, if we're just tinkering around the edges that's very different to having a grand plan if you've got a houseman scale opportunity to start something from the beginning or does it not matter what the framework is as long as you understand the intention behind it i think that's a very good question and i think the most important thing is the ethos or the intention the principles that you're going at something with and then to ask what what are humans like how do they feel things what are their senses?

8:45What are the most important visceral things that drive them? And when you start from the human being and their deeper, I'm saying visceral needs, then you begin to get some of the principles. And a lot of them are to do with slight opposites. You want to be alone, but you also want to be together. You want to be private public. And so you can, in terms of space, You can do all these things, can't you? You can have spaces that are semi-public, permeable, moving from one to the next. So some of the words that tends to come up then are flow. Flow is a good word. I love flowing. But it's also convenience, comfort.

9:27And that also then is the thing that ultimately allows you or makes you want to perhaps connect because you feel to some extent protected. Now, the interesting point about Marylebone, and it's a lovely case study for many people in the world, it's not just because we're here, it certainly is. And one of the reasons why it is so good is because it's got, as we know, this whole area, I once checked this whole area, I did something for London about who owns what. And there are massive, traditional, old, big, big, big landowners. They're thinking long term. They can see long term value. They're not chasing the dollar immediately.

10:09I think places that work well, they feel generous or you feel someone's being generous to you because you respond to the fact that you like it. A theme that's quite interesting is this idea of where there are these tensions. They can unlock either creativity directly or the opportunity to be creative. Is it that they've been designed super, super well or actually conversely that there's a lighter touch that's allowed a little bit more of that mystery to emerge? You said the key word. You've said the lighter touch. You have to be sort of open. You need to hold space, which is why I'm saying don't complete it too quickly or don't complete it completely.

10:51Particularly if we're talking a new project and a big one, let it grow in the same way as the older places have grown through time. And one of the main things about cities, I mean, there's only two things, you know, what's happening inside a building. But at the moment, we're talking more about outside and walking down the streets. That's quite important that all of these textures and buildings speak to a street. You can see, for example, my son lives in Brooklyn in New York. OK, there's a lovely street, Atlantic Avenue. It's miles long, but the particular bit where he is is actually quite nice.

11:26And anyway, there's all these shops and, you know, Trader Joe and food shops and Barnes and Noble, all very nice. And then there's suddenly this bank, which feels like it's 100 metres long. It's probably only 80 metres long with zero going on it. And of course, at that point, the whole street dies because that's when the street ends, when that bank happens. Do you see what I'm saying? and one of the interesting things, I've been doing some work around neuroaesthetics and the essence of that is what happens to the brain when things are pleasing, not pleasing and this neuroaesthetics and other people, there's a Canadian guy called Colin Ellard who's done a lot of research on this, again, ugly boring buildings make you feel ill.

12:17There's another piece of research by Warwick University that took 250 ,000 images and asked, I think, 2 ,000 people what they thought. And the summary of it all was, and this is a very interesting one, that it's scenery that matters. And what we mean by scenery is what I'm calling coherence, the assemblage, how that fits together, the legibility, rather than greenness. Because sometimes people say, well, let's have green, and then it's incredibly dull, you know, it might as well not be there. You know what I mean? It's really interesting because we were talking about how a building or a space speaks to somebody.

12:53And I think the dialogue is interesting and how the well conceived and well executed space facilitates that dialogue on a social level. How that dialogue is driven is really interesting. do you think we have got better at understanding not just the the integral importance of having those dialogues but actually at how we can better create the space that facilitates them whether that's on a micro or macro level i think city making is a bit like knitting textiles and so a lot of what makes a great place is a hundred small things done well and orchestrated versus is the big boom I'm doing the big whatever it doesn't matter what it is the Guggenheim or something like that and sometimes they can work but actually funnily enough it's the small done well that often builds up that makes things great and I mentioned the word earlier assemblage which is basically about how you put the pieces together and that's the key thing there's various things that when you put great places together, there are these elements, you know, let's have the gym, let's have the shop, all of these things that we know about, which is the texture of urban life.

14:11But the models often forbid it or their financial models forbid it. So that's one of the major problems. And there are obviously interesting developers out there who understand that, but they have to have a wider view of value. So the value is they're valuing the street. They're valuing all these extra bits that are not in that actual sale of, let's say, that property and so on. To make a great place, we need lots of forms of knowledge, clearly design, clearly architecture. We're talking about the physical there. But we need people who understand, let's call them the social sciences without sounding too pompous, but, you know, understand emotions, feelings, senses.

14:58If I were to say to you, well, look, what are the most important things to keep front of mind or to inform your thinking and processes when working to better the urban environment? And again, we can look at that on a micro level or macro level. Do you yourself have that when you're looking, I don't know, out at a project or as you stroll through a neighbourhood? Do you have a, is there a Charles Landry checklist almost that you're running through in your head, Charles? I'm always saying to myself one question I say culture is who we are creativity helps what we can become so I have that sort of in my mind so I'm saying where does this place come from yeah what could it be I'm asking that's my first question what is distinctive about that then I'm saying okay to make this work well can we combine disciplines the different voices of the disciplines and also in a sense of the communities you're affecting through that.

15:53Then the next thing I'm saying is how can we encourage the people who are the key decision makers to broaden their sense of what is value? So you've got economic value, you've got social value, cultural value as well, all of these things. So that's the third point or fourth, I don't know. Then I'm always saying, can we understand this from within the human being? So that's bringing me up to the sensory perspective, the aesthetics. How do I perceive things? What is the psychological effect of that? And what is the emotional effect? Then I'm always saying, how can we get into a situation that works without being too holier than thou, where everybody involved can feel they are a shaper maker co-creator of this so they belong of course easier said than done so that's a bit about how do you consult people and all of that and get people involved then i'm always saying okay we're here we've got this either the building or street or a bigger thing then i'm saying we've got the people together they're all from these different disciplines they're also switched on people but then you ask them sometimes okay where do we want to go and then the vision is constrained by the rules.

17:09So I'm then always saying, can we have the vision first, which is these disciplines coming together, and then see what rules we have to change so that what we want can happen? Because quite often, when you get people in a room in a transdisciplinary way and say, forget your discipline, forget whatever your rules are, and you say, what's a great building? What's a great street? And then they work back and then they often see that their own rules are the obstacles to making those streets. Then I think, I always say to myself, think hardware, think software, horrible word now, think orgware. How are you bringing these things together?

17:49Because a lot of what makes a great building street environment, of course, is also activities. Because as we discussed before, you want people to connect and bump into each other. Obviously, the way you organise settings and environments can help that. But often you need a bit of activity that is the thing that gets people to talk. I remember a lovely project in Melbourne once, which was called Let's Dance. And, you know, instead of being called the intercultural project, it was just, hey, are you interested in salsa? Yes, off we go. And, you know, people then always went to the main square and did that.

18:30And then I think you also need to sometimes surprise just while we're in Melbourne. One of the big dramatic things that made one small change that had a boom effect was when the director of planning for Victoria, the state, who really was one of the key initiators in thinking about creative cities and so on, David Yenkin. He said overnight to an artist called Jim Lundy and then lots of his own people, let's grass over Swanston Street, horrible street, Main Street. That transformative action, what's happening? I'm walking on grass on the Main Street, led to a process where the whole thing was traffic calm, became walkable, all of these things.

19:14So surprise, I think, is important. And finally, I think orchestration and an element of light-touch curation, just slightly guiding things, nudging things along.

19:35Our thanks to Charles Landry for enlightening us on what makes for purposeful spaces. This is Pullman Voices, a Monocle Radio production for Pullman Hotels. This episode was produced by Holly Fisher and researched by Paige Reynolds. I'm Tom Edwards. Next time, we're talking about productive disruption with the founder of Bold Bean Co., Amelia Christie Miller. I mean, they're just so delicious and people just didn't see them that way. And that's what I really wanted to change. And I do believe that brands have the power to change how people consume and behave. I've always found that really inspiring.

20:10So I wanted to do the same for beans. For more on Pullman Voices, head to Pullman's Instagram page at Pullman Hotels. and for more information and hotel bookings, you can visit pullman.accor.com. If you enjoyed listening to this episode, head to monocle.com forward slash radio or wherever you get your podcasts to follow and subscribe.