Pullman Voices: Ole Scheeren

0:06What role can buildings play in overcoming social, cultural and geographical differences in order to enrich the lives of the people who inhabit and use them. This is Pullman Voices, the podcast by Monocle Radio that offers fresh perspectives from cultural pioneers, business leaders and creative minds, challenging how we see and engage with the world. I'm your host, Tom Edwards. Today's episode is all about crossing the divide and our guest is Oli Sheeran, the award-winning German architect behind some of the world's most ambitious and unconventional buildings. How can we make each individual a kind of active participant in something and to conceive structures that in a way encourage people to interact and to understand themselves as a responsible part of a greater whole?

0:56Ole Sheeran is known for ripping up the architectural rulebook. After making his name at the global firm OMA, where he co-led the design of Beijing's iconic CCTV headquarters, he founded Bureau Ole Sheeran in 2010. Whether it's designing a tech campus for 30 ,000 people in Shenzhen, stitching nature into the fabric of cities in Hangzhou, or reimagining what it means to live vertically in Vancouver, Olle's designs are bold and boundary-pushing, but always centre how people work, gather and live. In this episode, Olle speaks to Monocle's design editor, Nick Manese, about designing unconventionally, the power of cross-cultural collaboration, and why the future of our cities might depend on how well we learn to break the mould.

1:50It's an absolute pleasure to have you join us in the studio, Ole. You seem to be everywhere across the world right now, offices on multiple continents, which kind of explains why your work often bridges complex cultural, geographical, functional and aesthetic divides. For starters, tell us how you interpret the idea of crossing the divide in this global practice. I think at the core of my practice is in some ways a very collaborative idea, an idea that across boundaries, across continents, across cultures, we can actually work together and we can explore the various specificities that exist in each particular context.

2:26But then really explore those through conversation, interrogation, collaboration, and see what we can generate as new ideas in each specific place, but inspired beyond just what's there. I think it's always very important to first analyze and understand and comprehend what is there, to understand context, to understand locale, to understand culture, psychology, community. but then of course to not simply do things that fit seamlessly in and do not ask any questions but actually to come in and challenge also with new ideas and see how can you insert things into that context that resonate very specifically with its givens but that also in a way challenge it and try to push it beyond.

3:13When you look at your portfolio overall it feels like it's less about building architecture. It's more about creating ecosystems where people live, work, play, all sort of come together. Was this intentional? Is this what you always kind of set out to do? And maybe why has this become, I guess, the hallmark of your portfolio? I think for a long time, I've been interested in the idea of hybrids. It's not only that there was a time when across the world, things seemed to come closer together. But I think also So between different domains, there were suddenly new overlaps, new convergences, new symbiotic moments that emerged.

3:53And I thought these overlaps were where things became most interesting. It was not simply being confined by a single issue anymore, but it was in between those things where things happened. So I think for the past, I would say already 25 years at least, I've been exploring that idea of hybrids, of overlaps, of sometimes contradictions and how we can create a complexity and richness and diversity out of that. Creating that complexity and richness, does that come from, I guess, blurring lines between work and play? How do you kind of start to build that in? I think now we live in a time in which the convergence of work and play has become very obvious really at the forefront of everyone's mind.

4:37When I was talking about these things 20 years ago, people were much less interested in actually even having that conversation. And I said, but I really think we can no longer think the office just as a cubicle for work. I think the office is sometimes the main part of your life. And how does your life look like when you sit there? And equally, when you go home, things no longer stop. Digital technology has since a long time infiltrated also our home with the domain of our work. And so the question is, what kind of spaces do we need and what kind of environments do we need to create to allow us to seamlessly do that?

5:12I'm also curious how you get the balance right, because I think there's almost a stage where offices seem to be more about foosball tables and ping pong tables and beanbags than they were about actual work. How do you start to strike this balance? I think there was a time when particularly some headquarters buildings for tech companies went into the declaration of everything just being a childish playground. And I think we're luckily far past that point. And I think it's very clear that work is in the end, of course, a very serious topic. And in that sense also needs a focused and serious environment.

5:46But that environment is no longer in a way monofunctional. It's no longer isolating people from one another. But I think what has really become clear is that the interaction and the exchange and all the things that happen in actually more of a social context and understanding work as a fundamentally social context, I think, is very important in that. You mentioned tech giants there, and I think that's an appropriate segue into talking about a specific project. Tencent Helix, it's a HQ for the tech giant of the same name in Shenzhen. Walk us through that project. What makes this so distinct, I guess, firstly, in terms of its architecture, but then also in terms of that social function that maybe this office is playing and perhaps more broadly for the city that it sits in?

6:28First of all, it's a very large project. The Tencent Helix is double the size of Apple Campus in California. So to give some scale, there will be 20 ,000 to 30 ,000 people working there. So even the building in itself is almost like a little city. But then it sits in a wider context of a development that is all spearheaded by that company that really builds a whole new piece of a city in Shenzhen. What is specific about the building was really a conversation between us and the leaders of Tencent to envision a place that could deal with the challenge of an ever-evolving tech company and a place that is continuously focused on innovation, on newness, on change.

7:11and at the same time that needs a certain degree of stability and again seriousness in its work environment to keep people focused and to keep them happy also at their job. So the building has really defined also in architectural terms a system where a series of highly functional and flexible elements, essentially four towers, converge at the base in a kind of twisting moment, in a vortex-shaped moment, where literally through that movement, we start to mix things up. We bring everybody together. We create spaces for interaction, overlap, and in a way even challenge. But then that is combined with a great degree of flexibility and functionality in the tower spaces.

7:56There's multiple things here. I mean, firstly, human-centric design. How do you make sure that, you know, this is a huge campus, this is a big building. When you work on this scale, how do you also work on a smaller, more human scale? Yeah, I think scale is a very important thing to understand. And when things get very big, it's quite unusual at that scale. But I think you have an incredible opportunity at that scale to work in a way much more like an urbanist than an architect. You really deal with a diversity of not only of people, of function, of needs, of all kinds of things that create that sense of complexity and richness in the spaces that I think make sure people don't get too much caged in.

8:37There are really many possibilities of movement, of different qualities of space, of interaction, of focus, of retreat, but of course also of nature that invades the whole campus and that becomes a very important component between architecture and the natural environment as also I think a fundamental issue of well-being. I'm curious as well, how this extends to other kind of mixed-use projects. Urban Glen in Hangzhou, China, it feels like it's doing even a little bit more than Tencent Helix. It's less a HQ, but you've got, you know, leisure spaces, hotels, ballrooms, bars, restaurants, retail, even art galleries.

9:14How do these all kind of start to complement each other? What's the benefit of bringing these all into a singular project? It's essentially, it's a huge block that is broken up, that is broken open, that creates a series of terraces and valleys between the two outer parts. So there's a continuous sense of dialogue or actually rather multi-log between surfaces, spaces, functions, and the life of the city and all the people. And I think it's quite beautiful in this project how the notion of living and working very literally through hotel and offices then gets really exploded through so many other components that enrich that and embed that into a variety of experiences that are reflected in this complex structure.

9:58How much do you draw from nature in terms of inspiration? I mean, where are you finding inspiration for something like Urban Glen? Because even its name very much paints this natural environment image in my head. I mean, I think already almost 20 years ago, when I started to work on the interlace in Singapore, this was a moment where I thought we had to really, we had to redefine the relationship between architecture, so the civilized and built environment, and the kind of raw component of not having an idea of a manicured architectural element in green, but to really say, like, let nature be wild, let nature be an experience.

10:40And it's not a decorative surface or an alibi, but it's actually a space to use, and it's a space of experience. And there to create that vision of living in nature. And actually, even the way you find your apartment is no longer you look for a particular building block, but actually you enter a specific garden. And from that garden, this is where you live in that garden. From that garden, you find your front door. These were psychological differences in how people would feel things and how they would experience things that I think were really essential. And from there, I've been continuously evolving and developing that idea throughout the project.

11:17I'm curious as well. We're talking a little bit about integrating with nature there. But Urban Glen is also positioned in a spot in the city where, you know, there's opportunities to connect to both the old city centre and the new central business district. How does a project like this, I guess, kind of bridge the divide between the old and the new and do it in a way that's sensitive and maybe doesn't feel like it's jarring to either or? I think sometimes bridging a divide can be a very kind of spatial operation, but sometimes it can also be a very notional operation where you say, how are people using space?

11:49What kind of qualities of things are they used to? And how can you incorporate these qualities or reinterpret these qualities in a piece of contemporary architecture? So to find the resonance not in a kind of historicizing sense of repeating something as it has existed, but really to take some of those elements and reinterpret them in a highly contemporary way, in a way in which they adapt also to the way we live now and the way our processes of life, if you like, have changed. But I think that's a very exciting process to go through in each case. I want to change gears and continents slightly here.

12:27So jumping to North America, you've been working on the 1515 project in Vancouver. This is about reimagining the residential tower. I mean, tell us what that entails. How are you looking at the way that we're living now through a different lens or a perspective that we maybe haven't had before? I think Vancouver, for me, was actually a really exciting place to conceive a piece of architecture for. It's again, it's a very unique city in its kind of topographical quality. It's got the mountains at the ocean. It's got Stanley Park. It has almost everything you could only think of directly there at the city with the city.

13:04And yet, when I was looking at the city, the city was simply a kind of collection of vertical extrusions of glass towers. So in a way, very non-spatial elements that didn't seem to connect to anything. And I thought, Could we not think of this quality of reaching out, of like trying to project yourself out into that natural context, drawing the nature back into the building and kind of creating a much more interactive or active silhouette of a building and space of a building that would engage with that context? So instead of just creating that vertical tower, I actually cut the tower into even more vertical, thinner strips.

13:45And then I started to flip some of them out horizontally so that what essentially starts as a vertical extrusion ends in a series of horizontally projecting cantilevers that create a very three-dimensional silhouette. But in a way, this notion of horizontal living inside a skyscraper with 270 degree open views, with a very spectacular way to surround yourself with that environment. To me, it kind of sounds like you're changing the way that maybe we're building or the way that we've typically conceived towers, you know, as these kind of straight up and down, very simple blocky structures. I mean, even if you look at Vancouver as a whole, I think it's all quite vertically constrained, very sober in a way.

14:25So, one, you're changing architectural forms, but you're doing it in a way that I guess also changes the way that people are living in these apartment complexes. Is that a correct read on it? I'm interested in thinking of a user of architecture actually not as a sort of passive player, but as a very active component. Like how can we make each individual, the inhabitant, the user, the worker, whoever it is, a kind of active participant in something? And it can be the context. It can be the community. It can be amongst one another. It can be the wider urban context. and to conceive structures that in a way encourage people to interact and to understand themselves as a responsible part of a greater whole.

15:09And I think that sort of position creates really a sense of responsibility, maybe even within the architecture. Do you think people kind of realize that the architecture is maybe positioning them to, whether that's engaged with the community or engaged with the surrounding landscape, or is it something that people are inadvertently informed or shaped by? I think the architecture enables or encourages them, hopefully. I don't think there is necessarily a forceful element to it. And I think a notion of freedom and choice is something also very, very important. But of course, to create a structure that enables you, that in a way suggests that to you.

15:47And I think if you decide to live in a place like that, you probably understand to some extent or relate to that notion because that's very clearly, I think, what the building is speaking. You've worked in a lot of what we call megacities across Asia in comparison to Vancouver, despite even to me feeling like it has a lot of high rises for a Western context. It's probably nothing compared to these megacities you've worked in. I mean, what sort of lessons or experience are you bringing from working in these incredibly tall and dense Asian environments to the Pacific Northwest? I think Asia, on one hand, of course, it can teach you the necessity for density and then density as a topic?

16:26How do you really understand density and explore density, not as a negative given, but in a way as a potential to create out of that density and out of that maybe even partial friction that comes really exciting moments? I think the other thing is really that Asia was simply a very, you could say even a courageous context. I think Asia was growing so quickly and the question of the future was imminent. At any turn or corner or any moment or second, there was a question, how does the future actually look like? Because we know that the way things were will no longer be adequate in a very short amount of time.

17:07And I think that courage and that interest in a future that would go beyond the things as we knew them is a fundamental quality that I think we learned there and that we're trying to apply then, And of course, two very different specific contexts. But I think that is exactly the kind of transfer or the crossing of the divide. I think that can happen. That can be incredibly productive. Building on this, I'm curious, you know, we're working in a world where, and you've mentioned this in some of your projects, there's tradition versus modernity. Obviously, there is aesthetics, but there's also utility.

17:40We've got a little bit of East versus West here, or East complementing West or East informing West. I don't know, and vice versa. I mean, is there a conscious goal or an inevitable result of working in a globalized world? Are you building towards, you know, maybe no conflict or no friction? On one hand, the tensions between those polar differences is a very interesting starting point. And of course, one that resonates strongly with this very dialectic Western culture that we come from. But at the same time, what I'm interested in is there's an Asian ability to resolve conflict, sometimes not through the confrontation of extremes, but through the acceptance of coexistence of certain things that maybe from a purely Western perspective seem irreconcilable.

18:29But then from an Eastern perspective, all of a sudden become possibilities. And I think that notion of possibilities to move beyond the old dichotomies that black has to exclude white and that there's always a notion of conflict and difference. I think we have to think that differently because maybe difference is not the root of conflict, but maybe the root of a very productive and interesting potential. Oh, you're getting me excited. I like this. So architecture can play a role, I guess, in ensuring that the world kind of stays open and interconnected, cross-cultural, curious. Do you see that playing that kind of role?

19:06Of course, it's very dangerous to overestimate the power of the things you're involved in. You're a diplomat there. But I think if we do not believe in – if we're not somehow optimists and if we don't believe in the possibility that the things we do can actually make a difference and make a change, then what would be the point? So in that sense, I do think that architecture – because of course architecture also fundamentally has something to do with identity. There are buildings that really embody and represent cultures, contexts, places and people's memories. And I think to work with those things can also be a very, very important and productive starting point.

19:46And how can we build on the making of memories and the creating of narratives and experiences and stories through people's lives with the spaces and buildings that we create?

20:06our thanks to ollie sheeran who was speaking to monocle's nick manise this is pullman voices a monocle radio production for pullman hotels this episode was produced by holly fisher and research by page reynolds i'm tom edwards next time we speak to fashion designer feng chen wang about how she treads the line between tradition and modernity in her work. For me as a designer, it's great for me to really get experience from different things, different culture, different history, working with different people as well.

20:44For more on Pullman Voices, head to Pullman's Instagram page at Pullman Hotels. and for more information and hotel bookings, you can visit pullman.accor.com. If you enjoyed listening to this episode, head to monocle.com forward slash radio or wherever you get your podcasts to follow and subscribe.