Pullman Voices: Pallavi Dean

0:02How does change shape us? Whether it's moving locations, choosing an untrodden path, or trying a new approach, can the way we embrace change be the marker of our success and in turn help others grow? This is Pullman Voices, the podcast by Monocle Radio that offers fresh perspectives from cultural pioneers, business leaders and creative minds, challenging how we see and engage with the world. I'm your host, Tom Edwards. Today we're talking about how to activate and navigate change. And our guest is Pallavi Dean. Why else are we here then? You know, if we're not here to better ourselves, if we're not here to be curious.

0:44And I think that's one thing with change. If you really are seeking out change, it comes from a place of curiosity. And I think all creatives, that's just within us. We're very curious people. Pallavi is an architect, entrepreneur and founder of the Dubai-based design practice RAW. Boasting over 200 projects across 10 countries, RAW has proven its versatility across multiple sectors in its 12 years of operations. Pallavi's projects range from governmental institutions in Ajman to law firms in Chicago and designing the nurseries of the future. And while the demands of the spaces shift and change, Pallavi's approach remains the same, a 50-50 balance between art and science.

1:27Born in India, raised in the UAE and with several years spent studying and working in London, Pallavi knows what it means to adapt to new challenges and new environments. Today, from her office in Dubai, we spin the globe to talk about the moments and the buildings that have changed her.

1:50Pallavi, how lovely to chat to you. Thanks for making some time in your busy day. We're getting straight into abstraction, right? We're talking about change and how it activates your career and your experiences. Talk to me about your sort of appetite for change, how change has shaped you. You've got such a varied and interesting career. It's very dynamic. Did you always embrace it or did you have to experience its power for good first and then be like, oh, now I get it? Look, we're all a result of our environments and kind of our experiences shape who we become as human beings. So for me, I didn't grow up thinking, yay, change is good.

2:28Nobody does. Everybody has some level of resistance towards it. But I think very early on, I remember being like 17, 18. And that's when I first started out at architecture school, right? This budding, arrogant little thing thinking, oh, I'm going to take over the world. And my father's business, which was a contracting business, went bust. So I very quickly went from a chauffeur-driven S-class Mercedes to getting the university bus every single day. And I think that was the moment for me that really was a stop and reflect sort of moment, right? It was the first time where I think I actually introspected rather than just being reactive to the world around me.

3:07This started all when I was 17 in Sharjah, going into the American University. And again, what we associate with the UAE today, it was a very different place back then. I remember, you know, the Buzhal Arab didn't exist. I watched this building come up. So it was very much a sleepy little desert town. And navigating all of these things, when you're young, first of all, you're fighting with, you know, you're getting into adulthood, you're figuring out what you want to do with your life. And then there's something very personal going on. So there's a lot of tension. There's a lot of forces that started defining me to become this person that I am today.

3:44Let's spin the globe and continue your journey, you know, through these different geographies as well. Should we head to London? Should we go there next? That feels like a logical next step. Rainy grey London. Because this was another sort of key point on the road to roar, if you like. Tell us a little bit about London. Working and living somewhere where it's not your home really defines you. And I think London did that for me, right? I was, I think, about 25 when I moved to London. Oh, God, that sounds like a long time ago. But again, you know, navigating all of that, because you're kind of, you're struggling with imposter syndrome in your 20s.

4:19you've come from this architectural hotspot, but London's at an international level. Am I going to cut it? And I think, again, what I did there, I did two important things. Number one, I was like, with a little bit of my imposter syndrome, I was like, I got to go back to school, right? So I did my RIBA part three, and I was like, I'm going to choose the best university in the UK, the AA, and I'm going to try and see if I make it there. And I chose a really good practice, and I wanted to see if I was on par with my colleagues. So there was a little bit of that Competitive Edge, which has served me as an entrepreneur.

4:47So that was kind of the London journey. But I think at that point, I also took some time to reflect and think maybe what I really need at this stage, you know, because everybody says, oh, I want to mentor. People who are experienced are actually really busy. They don't have time to mentor you. So again, I could sit there and be like, oh my God, I can't find the perfect mentor. Or I could find a coach or find someone who could help me define what this next chapter would be. I'd read a Jack Canfield book, an American author who talks about success principles. And I loved that book. And I was like, oh my God, imagine if I could kind of, you know, chart the path to my life based on what this guy has done.

5:26Look how successful he is. So I enrolled in a coaching program. Again, I remember at the time talking to my then fiance, now husband saying, this is really expensive. Can we afford this. And, you know, he's just one of those wise guru type people. He's like, of course, the best investment you can ever make is in yourself. And he always tells me that's paid off now all these years later. But I think that was a really good investment of time and money. Having someone kind of clock you, having that level of accountability with someone outside of your everyday really helped me structure kind of this path to what would then become entrepreneurship a little bit later.

6:06Do you think that sometimes actually creative people or the creative industries neglect to go back to that mantra, invest in yourself, make sure the foundational things are there, then we can worry about the sparks of inspiration and the aesthetic? I don't believe in sparks of inspiration, first of all. And I think Elizabeth Gilbert wrote a fantastic book, it's called Big Magic. The muse does not hit anyone. It's the rigor, it's the discipline. turn up from 8 a.m., put your 10 hours in, as Malcolm Gladwell said, put your 10 ,000 hours, you know, really getting, honing your expertise, that's when the muse comes in.

6:40But it doesn't just come in. It's the hard work. It's the rigor. It's the discipline. So you're absolutely right. I think a lot of people just ignore that part of it. And they're like, oh, I'm going to be a creative genius. Okay, you might be creative today, but tomorrow when you're having an off day and when the client's not paid your bills or your colleagues being a bit difficult with you, How are you going to navigate all of that? But if you have rigor, if you have discipline, all of that is thought of. You know, you're just working on autopilot and that allows the creativity to come in. Yeah.

7:08And I think interrogate these ideas always. Let's move a little bit further forwards. And I know, well, you've described your sort of midlife crisis ridiculously. Tell me about that, because that's maybe a change which not only maybe you don't anticipate, but you certainly don't hasten or look to bring about. Okay, so obviously after London, I moved back to Dubai and, you know, I worked for several big practices and then I started up my own company. And, you know, as one does, when I hit 40, I started questioning everything in life. I was like, oh my God, like, do I want to be a designer? Do I want to be an entrepreneur?

7:42Do I want to teach? And there were all these kind of questions that I had. Obviously, I bought a sports car. That's what you're supposed to do, right? But beyond that, right, that is something that's superficial, that you've got to do to tick the box, maybe, you know, kind of scratch an itch. But I went back to university again. And, you know, it was controversial at the time. People were like, why do you want to do an MBA? You've been running your business, you know, by yourself for 11 years now. How is an MBA going to help? And what is the connection between an MBA and your architectural degree?

8:14And I was like, I want to do this, right? Purely for intellectual curiosity. So my big self-indulgent gift to myself was my MBA. And it was INSEAD. So that was my midlife crisis during my MBA, which was such good fun. It doesn't sound too much like a crisis to me. This consolidation or this inspiration. It's interesting. Once again, you talk about, it's very conscious to sort of activate the change. It's not passive. These are not things that are roaming around and happening to you. It's change you're seeking to make. Again, do you think that there is a tendency in creative industries or for business leaders even to navigate away from that kind of volatility?

8:55Understandably, but it seems like you seek it out deliberately. Do you agree with that, do you think? I agree with that 100%. I mean, look, first of all, I'm enamored with life, right? Everybody who knows me knows that I live my life intensely. And that is very intentional. and I do seek out change and I do seek out evolution because why else are we here then? You know, if you're not here to better ourselves, if we're not here to be curious. And I think that's one thing with change. If you really are seeking out change, it comes from a place of curiosity. And I think all creatives inherently, I think that's just within us.

9:31We're very curious people. So yes, I do seek it out and life would just be so stagnant and boring if we just went with it. Well, no, you're right. And I don't think there are any truly successful, creative people who lack curiosity. In the same way, you won't meet that many successful, lazy, successful entrepreneurs. Look, we're here, we're in Dubai. Let's keep things in the UAE and talk about one of your projects, the Ajman Executive Council. Is this a unique project for you? It certainly is a super interesting one. Tell me a little bit about this. I think it's super unique, just within the remit of the project, right?

10:05It's a governmental agency. and we all have an image of it. It's going to have those institutional ceilings. It's going to be very formal, hierarchical. And what was really interesting is that the client wanted to redefine that. They wanted the space to be a place for the people, where people could come together. You know, they're coming here with some grievances as Emirati nationals would have or some issues that they want to discuss with the government. So it becomes a community space. Yes, it has to do the real functions of regulations, setting laws, all of that important kind of stuff, but it's also serving its people.

10:38So those were two very interesting, you know, kind of aspects to the programming and the brief, which came directly from the client. Another superb thing that the client, again, worked with us on was the fact that the governmental office would become an art gallery for local artists. And not just the Emirati artists, but expats who've given this country so much. They wanted to give them a space to kind of showcase their art, but the government themselves have purchased and invested in this art. So I just love the circularity of that story. It's a place for the people, but it also supports that sense of community.

11:14When you have to change expectations, and it might be, as you say, almost about changing expectation or aspiration about the literal capacity or function of a public building, does that kind of change require a different set of skills from the designer, from the architect? First off, right, architecture and design is part science and part art. Okay, so let's establish that. I think any successful creative will vouch to that, right? You can do your creativity and, you know, do those big, bold architectural design statements, but you've got to meet the functional requirements because if you haven't, then you've really failed.

11:51Let's talk a little bit about the governmental agencies. Are they ready for that, right? We were introducing open plan offices, which is unheard of. So we had to go on this journey with them. And how do you do that? That's all about change management. I can't come in on, you know, you hire me, next day I come in, I'm like, here's your beautiful design. I'm going to get so much pushback. But if you involve them in the process. So we have a psychologist who worked alongside with us who was reading their non-verbal cues. She was watching how they were reacting every time I'd say, and here's an open collaboration space.

12:22Some of them were like, great. Some of them were like, oh, no, wait, hang on. I need a psychologically defensible space. So we were picking up on all those nonverbal cues and we were involving them in the process. When you push change down someone's throat, it's not easy. But when you involve them within the process and you take them step by step and educate them, I'm doing this because this is what you're going to gain in productivity. I'm doing this because we're going to gain 30 % more real estate. And I think that's how we dealt with change. And I think that's how we deal with change in our studio in general, is involving the other person, educating the other person, and most importantly, empathizing with the other person.

13:03Just because design is natural and intuitive to me and I can sketch something quickly, some people have never seen a plan before. They've never seen a 3D before. So first, I have to empathize with them and kind of handhold a little bit and be like, I'm going to go on this journey with you. So I think for us, that's just how we work. And it worked out so well with this client. We've been on quite a journey already, lots of different places, locations. What about just a simple change in geography? We've already zipped around the world a fair bit. That must be very inspiring. Tell us what that gives you as a creative person to be exposed to that degree of change of place, change of geography.

13:39Yeah, I think it's super interesting. But of course, I would say that I'm a third culture child, right? I was born in India. I've never lived in India. You know, I've spent all my life in the UAE, but I'm not in Marathi. I'm married to a Mancunian Brit, right? So there's so much tension, like cultural tension in my household alone. My sister's Canadian. My own blood sister. What? So there's so much cultural tension, but I think that is so rich because you learn from it. You take away from it. We're living in an increasingly global kind of world. We're all just global citizens now. You can't say you're from the UK and I'm Indian.

14:14No, that just doesn't fly anymore because we're influenced by the media we take in, which is from everywhere. We travel extensively these days and we're constantly being hit at by all of these beautiful and rich experiences. So for me, I'm almost like I'm like a sponge. I'm absorbing it all. And then when I express myself subconsciously, whatever has impacted me comes through in my work. But I see it as the biggest gift that I have, this cultural tension. Back to our map, Pallavi. Let's go to the next point on it. We're heading to White & Case, a huge name, of course, in the legal world. And again, your work with the psychologists you mentioned earlier, I think, came back into focus here.

14:57How does looking at these kinds of projects and plans from a psychological point of view, well, your approach has to adapt, right? You have to take on board their feedback. Tell us a bit about what that's like. Because again, I'm sure maybe there's quite a few practitioners who do that, but there are many who don't. Tell me how it works. When we were first brought on board by Widen case, it was such an exciting opportunity. We'd never done a large scale law firm. And, you know, I don't know if you've ever interacted with lawyers, but they are pedantic. They read every single line. So, you know, I'd put a concept presentation and they'd be like, sorry, you've drawn a circle there.

15:31What does that represent? I was like, oh, no, that's just like a planter. They're like, oh, there's no leaves. Are you sure you're not putting those in to test them out a little bit, test their legal rigor? I really wasn't, but I learned the hard way that every line had to have meaning to it. But the point is, again, when we did that kind of reverse briefing exercise with them, you know, because they said, we want a law firm. And I was like, oh, great, but let's really dig deeper into what is it that you want from your workplace. We worked with the psychologist and them. Again, she's asking questions to them that I would never ask because I'm asking design questions.

16:02I'm like, right, so how many desks do you need? When you walk into the reception, what do you want to feel like? she's asking questions like does anyone in the office suffer from sad you know when the weather is bad outside how does it affect their moods when people don't have a nice place to sit for lunch how does that make you feel so she's asking all of these psychometric questions that probably i don't even know how to dissect and ask and that influences the process so having her on board and having her really influence the design gives them something that was so holistic so yes we met the program, the budget and the timeline, which I think is a given, but it brought this new dimension and not a superficial wellness dimension, but really putting people at ease in the space that they inhabit.

16:45And I think that's so crucial. And then on the back of that Dubai project, we did another expansion for them in Dubai. We did their Saudi offices that they've now occupied. We're working with them in Chicago. That's our first North American project. And now we're also going to do their Doha offers. So having a repeat client to me is the biggest win and testament to what we do here as a practice. I guess from project to project, maybe the philosophy doesn't shift, but the approach maybe pivots around. I don't know, how do you manage allowing the space for that approach to change with the adherence to the things that people come to raw and to you for?

17:23Because sometimes those things might be a little bit in opposition. What's that process like? So two things, right? I've always said we don't have a signature style. You look at our website, you will see this colorful, mad kind of maximalist project, and then you'll go into super minimal or brutalist, right? That is because we are always responding to the client requirements and to the context. It's very intentional. So I kind of disagree with you. I think our approach is always the same. It's a process-driven approach. And again, this is kind of why I did my MBA. So I came up with this 25-step process that every role project goes through.

17:57So it is very process-driven. It is not style-driven at all. The psychologist is always there. The rigor within the budget is always there. So it's very process-driven. But going back to your question is, you know, if you're doing a repeat project, how do you make sure it's not stale, right? It could just look like an echo of the past. And I read this in a book somewhere, so it's not mine. But I love the idea of vuja day, like the opposite of deja vu, you have to look at things with a new lens. So what we often do with each of these projects, we swap and change the team. So yes, I will lead the project, but there's always different team members involved.

18:35So no two members have worked on any of the widened case projects. It's always shifted. And that's very intentional because I want to see what else can they bring. You know, sometimes I'll bring a hospitality specialist into a workplace project. Sometimes I'll bring an educational specialist into a workplace project because I think that hybrid approach just makes it so much richer. We've had times when we've consulted with a biologist. You know, again, what can we learn from what other people are doing in their fields and bring that into design? Isn't that fascinating? Now, you mentioned bringing in educational experts into other settings.

19:10Let's talk a bit more about education. We've already mentioned a couple of projects that are in this space. Tell us more about a couple of these. Again, a sort of daycare center, the nursery, super, super interesting. Tell us about these. Yeah, look, again, as someone who's so passionate about education, I'm obsessed with going back to school. I'm literally starting a new course in neuroscience and architecture at Polytechnico in Milan. I'm so excited, right? So to get an opportunity to design an education space, oh my God, what an opportunity. My kids go to school. They go to a school I've designed, which is even better.

19:41I look at space as a silent teacher, right? How can the space kind of reinforce your curriculum, reinforce the value you as an educational institution have? How can we reinforce all of that in a three-dimensional format? So for me, that's such an exciting prospect. Just having that opportunity for me to influence something that's so foundational. This is someone's first experience with design. And what about, I suppose there must be different considerations to make there because yeah the under threes the under sixes whatever parents will know different ways of engaging with spaces tactility important again is it a question of sort of learning by doing i guess you'd have your own experience with your kids you'd know their instincts but how do you again force change in your mindset about what educational spaces should be and how they how they function the very literal fabric of them but that must be fun to have been interrogating before you started doing it it is so fun but it involves a lot lot of research, right?

20:38So part of it is science. We know that kids from zero to one, their eyesight is not developed, their space should be very monochromatic, black and white, so they can really focus on stuff. Everything that you said about haptic plague, you know, sensory experiences is so important as a child gets a little bit older. But we also have to realize that technology is infiltrating education at a very rapid pace. You can be one of those people who are like, oh no, we shouldn't adopt this and let's just stay away. Kids should not be on the devices. or you can be like, no, this is the world that we exist in.

21:07Let's embrace it and let's find a good way to do it. So for me, the process is very much research driven and it's really interesting to stay up to date with these things. First understand the pedagogy of the school, but then also understand what are different people doing all over the world? Like the Finnish education system is very different to the UAE education system, to the British education system. How can I bring some of those influences and make this more deep? like richer um let's kind of maybe wrap up by taking right back to the start we talked about how change from within and without has shaped your career your successes the challenges you face the opportunities that you've found um when you sort of reflect on all that and it's it's a tough thing to do i guess it's aided by you know it's surrounded by so many of your awards and things hopefully that gives you a shot of pride but what what do you does it does it help you to kind of understand yourself a little bit, how you've navigated them, when and where you've sought change out, when and how you've reacted to it positively.

22:11How do you make sense of your facility to cope with change? What does it tell you about yourself? What does it tell me about myself that I am adaptable and flexible to change? I think it just tells me that I'm quite an agile person, you know, and again, this is why I have such a strong yoga practice. I think that's what yoga is all about. It's about flexibility. You know, I probably couldn't get into a full backward bend, but I try every single day and I don't think by any shape, way or form, I fully understand myself. All I know is that there has been so much change in every decade of my life, in my teens, in my 20s, in my 30s, now in my 40s, you know, and it's all led me to who I am today.

22:53And this is a beautiful moment to be in. So how could I hate everything that's come before?

23:05Our thanks to Pallavi Dean for joining us on the podcast today. This is Pullman Voices, a Monocle Radio production for Pullman Hotels. This episode was produced by Paige Reynolds. The executive producer was Holly Fisher. I'm Tom Edwards. Next time, we speak to the founder of disturbing records and Severan wines, doing Oberota about what it means to be truly present and how we can harness its power. You have to have a level of professionalism, down to just even timekeeping. When you go into the room, make sure you're present, make sure you talk to everybody, make sure you look into everyone's eyes and greet them and make sure your presence is felt, you know, like just the foundations.

23:44For more on Pullman Voices, head to Pullman's Instagram page at Pullman Hotels and for more information and hotel bookings, you can visit pullman.accor.com. If you enjoyed listening to this episode, head to monocle.com forward slash radio or wherever you get your podcasts to follow and subscribe.