Smith & Willis and Four Seasons’ residences

0:11Hello and welcome to The Entrepreneurs on Monocle Radio, the show all about inspiring people, innovative companies and fresh ideas in global business. Coming up on today's programme, we meet the duo behind one of London's and my favourite restaurants to hear about their exciting next chapter, a new hospitality group. The shackles have been kind of thrown away a little bit, allowing all the things that we love and care about from hospitality to music, to art, to design, all these things to kind of shape and influence what we do moving forward. And later, we'll celebrate a big milestone for the Four Seasons brand, as it marks 40 years in the branded residential market.

0:53People are gravitating towards a brand, but more importantly, they're gravitating towards experience. And so that for us, we start to now look at these markets from an experiential standpoint and also from a livability standpoint as well. This is The Entrepreneurs, with me, Tom Edwards.

1:16You're listening to The Entrepreneurs. Lifelong friends and business partners Johnny Smith and Daniel Willis are the team behind Clove Club and Luca, a Michelin-starred modern Italian restaurant in the heart of London's Clerkenwell. Their newest venture, Smith & Willis, is a hospitality group that will build on their owner-managed and partnership restaurants while also collaborating with designers, artists and even music production companies to drive the business forward, all while staying true to their core value, that things should be built to last and crafted with care. Their latest edition is the rooms at Ozip, four beautifully designed bedrooms tucked above the Michelin-starred restaurant in Somerset.

1:57And for a thoughtful extra touch, guests will find the latest issue of Monocle magazine in every room and in the lounge. Johnny and Daniel stop by Midori House to discuss all these exciting developments. This is a kind of start of a new chapter for Daniel and I as we launch Smith and Willis. So we founded Clove Club back in 2013, Luca a few years later, and now we're setting off on a new chapter of our own journey, launching Smith and Willis. So it's, you know, it's a new hospitality group under which Luca will live as a brand. When Daniel and I have talked about what we'd like to do in the future, we've talked about opening new hospitality venues, so new restaurants and other venues like that, but also, you know, collaborating with other people in the industry so we've now got a relationship with ossip and merlin in somerset which is really really exciting and again at the start of that journey and we have other exciting plans in the pipeline which sounds really vague and at the moment it kind of is but there's you know there's going to be more things coming online and you know we want to have fun while we're doing it and we want to bring great people along for the journey i hate saying things like watch this space but you know also watch this space you're welcome to reveal the key strategic developments to to our global audience but i understand you might need to keep your cards a little closer to your chest let's just interrogate this idea of it's interesting you say again lots of kind of founders of businesses don't talk about we want to have fun and we want people to have fun right but it's pretty important especially in the hospitality game this idea of the experience the sort of experiential idea of how do we play with music, something you're both very passionate about, how do you play with the spaces to draw those things in?

3:47Again, when you were working in these other restaurants early in your career, explicitly or implicitly, do you think you were kind of building up a checklist of like, that's really interesting. We should push this idea further. This restaurant's great, but it lacks a such and such. Do you think you were sort of tacitly building up this ledger of things that you were going to interrogate later yeah for sure i mean i think you gather experience you think that's really great you go to places love that glass love that bit of crockery the experience of developing yourself as you know hospitalitarian or like you know so back at the flat in the supper club days where we started then to kind of you know the 10 bells clove club then ending that journey and then starting you know a for esther smith and willis you know i think that the sort of analogy of feeling like you're at home speaks to that sort of warmth of hospitality which i think we do well or i hope we do well i hope you people feel that when they come to the restaurant but i think the sort of fixtures and the fittings and the textures and the design of that place suggests celebration conviviality i think we always just wanted to just do things naturally which came from our warmth of personality and i I think what's really nice is to sort of take stock at a point and go, you know, where have we come from?

5:07Where are we going? And that sort of speaks to a wider vision. I think on the experiential side of things, one of the things I love about going to a restaurant, especially that's not mine, is that you get that whole history of that person's experience, everything that they've learned, all the places that they've previously maybe created, all the little lessons they've learned. You get that in one great big adrenaline shot of a restaurant experience. often when people come to a restaurant when it's really exceptional and all the parts of it are singing i think as a guest sometimes you're like wow you know we went to an unbelievable restaurant in france in paris just south of paris called le doyenne and that was eight years in the making like unbelievable sort of it was actually an old zoo this farmhouse it was stunning and you know just the way that everything was done so much of it was so subtle that really touched us we really appreciated it you can't imagine what what's gone on over those eight years but you're getting it in one sort of snapshot and so yeah i think with luca that is an element of that that's sort of a slice of us that everything up to that day that when we created that restaurant was was a gathering of experiences and ideas what's beautiful i think about restaurants in a way that perhaps maybe other disciplines isn't is that you get to revisit it you come back and you're like how can we improve it what can we do we're talking about doing a um of hanging our first kind of like art in the restaurant which will be hopefully this can be a little a little reveal for you tom everybody's coming up love it so ferragosto is the kind of august bank holiday and it's a sort of it comes from roman times and it's a celebration of sea and everyone takes the day off and goes to the seaside and we we really want to kind of reflect that sort of wonderful moment in kind of food and culture and the summer in Italy and so we did a menu last year out on the terrace on the terrace you can't always it's so often booked for private hires that you can't just sit out there with a little table for two so we block it now in the summer so you can and whatever hires we may or may not get we just sort of ignore and people can just sit out there so we do that and we do this little menu that goes with it and we thought wouldn't it be wonderful to kind of take some photos so we commissioned a photographer called michelle jacobini whose images you'll see through lucas socials and the website we have this relationship with him and last year we sent him to sicily he shot some really beautiful images that we were going through yesterday and hopefully we're gonna hang some of those in the in the restaurant and this is quite sort of nerve-wracking for us we're like oh god everyone's so like i love the design of luke we're like are we gonna do it i'm gonna buzz the pictures up i don't know.

7:47I think that's a really good example because that's so it's clearly so thoughtful and it does fit. It will fit because of what the intention behind it was and because of the original. Do you see what I mean? It's not trying to sort of shoehorn something in. It sounds like a logical extension of what you were doing. Well that's very exciting. This idea of these kind of threads that run through from Supper Club through the other venues. Talk to me a bit about can you articulate the threads that run through it can you still feel and you're still sensitive to these were the foundational values in that enterprise and they were still there in the second and the third and now with the group that run through can you articulate what those kind of values are or what those threads are yeah i mean i think everything we've done has been a reflection of our journey you know you talked about the things that now influence our decisions in the restaurant and the directions you want to take subconsciously over the years you are making those observations and they continue to inform what we do now.

8:47I mean, Daniel Knight didn't take a traditional path in terms of hospitality or a career. We were working in restaurants since our early 20s and it was an environment in which we really loved and in which we really thrived. And long before we came to London to open restaurants, we were bringing people together. We used to work with Daniel's cousins, Nick Fraser, on this party called The Birthday Party, where we would kind of go and find brilliant locations, sometimes a pub in Manchester, sometimes an old farmhouse in the countryside, and bring people together and create something from nothing.

9:20And this was definitely a kind of theme that influenced things that we started to do moving forward. You know, the idea of literally bringing people together in a room, considering music, considering food, considering energy and atmosphere, and having fun with those things. And they've definitely continued to come to life in everything that we do now. before we started doing the clove club we were doing supper clubs in our flat and we also we ran a pop-up dining room above the ten bells pub in spittle fields but we weren't necessarily equipped with all the experience of how to run a business or how to be how to be managers we were kind of thriving on spontaneity a little bit and you know again drawing on this theme or value of bringing people together and creating something special that was it was quite naive but in a really beautiful way can i just ask about that because again lots of the entrepreneurs i talk to on this program say oh my god yeah my superpower was naivety i was ignorant if i'd known how complicated this racket was i never would have started are you another pair of those almost daniel sort of accidental entrepreneurs do you think in that way i think there is an element of that for sure i mean you know you look at the sort of the motivations for entrepreneurs and you You know, there's lots of studies done, which I'm sure you're aware of, that sort of try and look at this personality type.

10:39I kind of always sort of knew I was going to have my own business. My dad had his own business. And I think there is that, you know, one of those things that's prevalent in entrepreneurs is that often the case that their parents are. And in a way, it normalizes and de-risks this idea of being able to start a business. So I think I just had this really weird and vague sense that I was not going to work for someone else. and I think as I got older and we were doing music lots of music and that was like the ultimate passion for us and that was originally why we'd moved down to Manchester sort of in the back of my head I was a bit like yeah even when I was at bread and wine I was like I'm not gonna have another job after this I kind of knew it now circumstances and fate may have taken things on in a different direction you know and I could be um I don't know what would I do if I wasn't doing this be a teacher maybe I love teaching people anyway things worked out the naivety aspect I think is is definitely something that I think is a key factor in this in some capacity because I think while we were working on music this other thing that we were doing which we also loved was just sort of brewing in the background and I think that having been so fixated on a career in music and so desperately wanting it and just all of the energy and focus and the care and the time and the energy and just like the obsession was on that this wonderful thing was just sort of avenue momentum and at one point it was like okay well we're going to do this then and so that was the kind of supper clubs and johnny spoke about and then the 10 bells and that just sort of took off from there i think there's definitely a point by which we then had to retrospectively learn some very hard lessons quick because we hadn't you know i mean i'd never done a stock take i'd never done a rota really i'd supervised a few shifts at bread and wine we'd done these supper clubs and then we opened the biggest restaurant opening of the year arguably one of the most important restaurants in london in the last 20 years and we were just completely ill-equipped with how to do it and it just felt like a really like bad acid trip for about 18 months of just like like the stress and the anxiety was insane and both of us felt that and it took a lot of time to actually learn our craft we had a real kind of yeah i think that was i genuinely think that was probably the steepest learning curve of anything in my life that those first few years at clove but you never and you never thought oh my god this is this is too much was the conviction so you just knew i don't know were you confident you could weather that storm because i mean i laughed but actually as you say that's that's full-on and that's intense and you would be forgiven for saying this is going in a direction that i can't imagine yeah did you ever have any I presume you had doubts, but did you ever lose the fundamental conviction?

13:20I think running restaurants can be a really hard game. You know, it's long hours. There's a lot of pressure. It can be also brilliantly rewarding, and it is most of the time. I'm glad to say young people start working in restaurants. I think if you're doing it and not having success and not being carried by a wave of momentum and good times, then, yeah, I can see people throwing the towel in. But we never did. and I was very I was a kind of acutely aware of you know the ignorance that you talk about and you know it was uncomfortable for a lot of the time because you didn't necessarily have the answers or know what you were doing but we were carried like I said by this this energy and this momentum because we'd struck success and there was an honesty to it you know going back to that kind of naivety everything that we did was really honest there was no pretense behind it and I think kind of moving forward the challenge is to maintain that honesty because i think guests are very perceptive in that sense they don't like smoke and mirrors and that doesn't mean that you have to design a restaurant that is very simple in its in its decor or its pricing or its food you know you can be as elevated as you want to but if you can be honest with people and honest yourself about what you want to do i think definitely for us that is going to make sure that we continue to open places which feel true.

14:38Well, I wanted to talk a bit about collaboration. Obviously, Monaco and Luca had a recent collaboration and you do collaborations, some of which I think are intuitive. Hopefully that one is a little bit intuitive, some shared values, et cetera. Some that are a bit, maybe out of left field. Do you think that it's because you've got this very strong foundation where you can challenge one another, be super candid, very honest, that it's easier for you to strike up collaborations because you don't have, maybe you don't worry about, is this person, is this institution going to get it? I think what's great about this next chapter with Smith and Willis, I think, is looking to that future and plotting our own course and deciding what we want to do, who we want to work with.

15:19Sort of unwittingly in creating Luca, we created this brand and this space that people like you and other people wanted to come to that we have shared aesthetics and interests with. And I think that previously, perhaps, these people coming to our restaurant and we maybe didn't think about how we could work with them or things that we could do together. And that's been really fulfilling. And the monocle thing was so nice because it was just like we'd come in and people were coming into the space in the morning and it bred life into the building and no phones. And we were quite militant with it, telling people this is a reading room.

15:51And often I think people can view these things as, or it can be viewed as a sort of vacuous marketing exercise. And I think ultimately we're doing things because we want to do them. and I think that's what we want to do over the next 40 years is do things that's really meaningful and important to us with people who we admire, trust and respect. Let's just throw the picture forwards a little bit. Johnny, tell me a little bit about, and again, I know you probably can't reveal, as you said, too many of your strategic decisions from down the track, but I can ask you what you're most excited about in this next era and you can use whichever time horizon you like, as long as you want.

16:28What are you most excited about? Okay, I think this feels like a really exciting time in life. You know, we're over the hump of turning 40 now. And with that has actually come a kind of, you know, a bit of a sense of settling, really settling into life, quite honestly. And I think that's coincided with this new chapter for us. And being in a place where we feel like we're the masters of our own destiny, to an extent, there's just Daniel and I now as business partners. and that can you know that that presents challenges but it also presents excitement and opportunity so i feel like the shackles have been kind of thrown away a little bit and to points we discussed earlier allowing all the things that we love and care about from hospitality to music to art to people to design all these things to kind of shape and influence what we do moving forward As a younger man in hospitality, I wanted to know the answers to everything, and in life generally, actually.

17:30I wanted to know the answers. I wanted certainty. I wanted everything in a bit of a neat little box. And now I feel like we're both more willing to go on and enjoy the journey of creation. When we opened Clove Club, our only experience was doing house parties in our flat, really. Parties in barns in the northwest of England. Just wacky fun things that we've done. I should say to our listeners, a sort of wry smile plays over your face when you saw it. There must be some amazing anecdotes, but you can hear Daniel chuckling away. I don't know what story you're thinking of, Daniel, but I kind of want to hear that one.

18:03Maybe it's not one for on air. I don't know. But, you know, it was all kind of unconventional. And I guess it's like, I wouldn't describe ourselves as rule breakers, but I think moving forward, we can kind of do what we want to do. You know, obviously, commercially, viably, it has to work. Businesses need to make money for them to continue to exist and to thrive. But it's just nice to be in that place where we can consider everything and put it on the table. We don't need to be constrained by a certain set of rules and parameters of what a restaurant should look like or what a bar should look like or when we should do this or who we should collaborate with.

18:38So that's a kind of really fun state of mind to be in. I love that. It's a real good sort of mantra. Let me do a final sort of quickfire thought. We talked a bit about collaboration. You keep talking about music and art and design and all of these things and the fusion and the interesting thing that happens at that meeting point. What's a dream collab? And this can be like those, who would you have at a dinner party, alive or dead? You can go back through the mists of time. Maybe like, I don't know, who's in charge of the records? Who's talking? What would it be? Give us a couple of people. and it could be like a potential one that you may actually be able to do or you can delve back into history.

19:14Or they can be foodie, they can be music, whatever you like. Give us a couple of thoughts. We've already hosted, we had a dinner party on the terrace maybe last year to celebrate white truffle season, which of course needs celebrating. And Nigella Lawson was one of the guests who was extremely charming and convivial and very wonderful. So she would definitely be invited back. And I think I'd love to have the late, great Keith Floyd, you know that he's gonna stir things and mix things up in a wonderful way and also you know somebody playing records probably the you know the late great Andrew Wetherill he actually curated an amazing playlist for us when we were doing the supper clubs in our flight one of the supper clubs and he he hand delivered it in a little jiffy bag with all the uh a jiffy envelope excuse me with all the names of the tracks on the playlist scribbled in pen and at the top it said no googles or downloads so basically he knew he had this encyclopedia knowledge of music and he had taken all of his the vinyls each track of each song had you know was related to music and had recorded onto a cd for us so we've now got that framed in in the loft as a little memento to him so yeah i think those two would contribute to a very good evening that was johnny smith and daniel willis the co-founders of smith and willis you can find out more about the developments at OSIP by heading to osiprestaurant.com or you can head for more about the group to smithandwillis.london.

20:52You're listening to The Entrepreneurs. The branded residence market is booming. It's set to double in size over the next seven years. One name that's been ahead of the curve is the Four Seasons. This year, they're marking 40 years since launching their first branded residence in Boston. By the end of the year, they'll be operating 60 residential properties across more than 20 countries. So what draws people to these homes and where will the next ones appear? To find out, Monocle Radio's Fernando Augusto Pacheco sat down with Chris Meredith, group head of residential at Four Seasons. Chris began by explaining to Faye how the brand was among the first to spot the opportunity.

21:31Boston was the first project that we did that had residential in it. And then here we are today with, you know, by the end of this year, we'll have 60 properties open globally across 22 countries and nearly 6 ,000 units. So it's gone from a slow crawl to a very fast pace. And I think if you look at our pipeline moving forward, even the next five years, we'll get another 35 projects that'll be open. Our business effectively will double in the course of the next five to six years. So what that's telling us is the market's resonating with it. And I think we're finding some great projects and great partners that allow us to kind of be able to flourish in this space.

22:06And that's remarkable. And even your title as group head of residential, that's you're the first one to have this title as well. So I guess, you know, you're becoming important. I mean, so this is a very, this is a sector that four seasons is really, really paying attention more and more, even after 40 years. It is. And listen, I'm very fortunate to take on this role. And listen, I look at it as a steward of this role. I mean, there'll be somebody after me. And fortunately, I'm hopefully the first one to set the groundwork here. But for four seasons, it's very important. If you look at the growth of our business as a whole, not just in residential, you know, over 65 % of every project we look at and agree to do has some form of residential attached to it.

22:47A lot of that comes down to the financial economics of deals and not that we need to get into that. But I think the business as a whole, we've really looked at the residential side of it and realized that we've got to pay much greater attention to it. We do a phenomenal job at the service aspect. I mean, it's what Four Seasons is known for. But now we really have to dive deep with our development partners and start to understand what makes them tick and what makes them think and how do we kind of align ourselves at best in class. So it's been exciting for me because it really exposes me to multiple markets across multiple regions.

23:19And you know, you've got to get educated quickly. But more importantly, we've got a great team that's spread across the globe that really helps me get there. So it's been a great first year and hopefully there's many more to come. Well, and let's talk about how global it is. I looked at your portfolio, your present, well, in basically all regions in the world with a special focus on North America. Is there any area, particularly a region or a country that Four Seasons is really looking at and saying, you know what, we should invest more here and open more properties in this market? Yeah, absolutely.

23:50I mean, you're right. If you looked at our business over the last 30 years, it's heavily North American dominated. If you really look at it in the last five and moving forward the next five, that is starting to even out. We're seeing a huge amount of growth, certainly in the Middle East and the Gulf States. Europe as well is also becoming a really strong focus for us. Where I'd like to see us really push into though is I still think from an Asia perspective and an Africa perspective. I think there's a lot of great opportunity there. You've got some great emerging economies. You've certainly got a lot of affluence there that understands it, and especially in Asia, which is such a service culture in itself.

24:26I still see there's a lot of effort for us to be put into those regions. Yeah, I think the Americas and EMEA, Europe and Middle East, will start to take care of itself. And again, we've got a lot of great exposure there. But for me, I'm really trying to push into Asia, Pacific and Africa as two identifiable markets. And Chris, just remind us about the numbers. from all the Four Seasons hotels and resorts, what's the percentage of them that also have that residency aspect to it? I know it's not all of them, but it's quite a large number of them. Yeah, so as a business, so as a company, we have 133 hotels open and operating today.

25:02And then, as I said, we have 57 residential properties open today with another 35 opening in the next kind of four to five years. So really, we're kind of one third of the business, give or take, right now, a little greater than that. but you'll start to see as we get to 2030, it becomes about 50 % of the business of where hotels are open and where residential is. And then the other thing to note is we've got a huge emphasis on standalone residential, so not attached to a hotel. That for us is where we see the greatest amount of growth. If you look at just the development sector in general, there's a much greater audience in residential than there is in hospitality.

25:38And part of that is to be a hotel developer, it takes a lot of work and it's very difficult to finance. I'm not saying that a residential development is easy to do, but we see a much greater audience in the residential sector. So when I talk about the growth, it doesn't mean that they're also attached to a hotel. There's a lot of that growth is fixated on the standalone residential piece. I was going to ask, what is your customer looking for? You know, I can think of, of course, beautiful design, a sense of safety, but I want to hear it from you. Sure. And listen, it's ever evolving because the age bracket or certainly the buyer profile bracket is changing every year.

26:16This used to be a baby boomer type asset that they acquired. Now you're seeing Gen X, you're seeing millennials come in. So all of those different generations want different things. And so we have to try and work out how do you design to the masses? And when I talk about the masses, the masses within that affluent sector. And so what we see is we see a heavy emphasis on wellness. I think everybody understands the longer we can live and the better we can live, the better it may be. And so we've done a full audit on all of our properties to see where people access spaces. You know, it's quite often we used to see people building these big wine cellars and big theaters and whatnot, and they're great and they're phenomenal and they do get used.

26:56But our two most popular used assets within a building is the gym and wellness and meeting space. And I think what's happened post-COVID as well is people realize not only can they work from home, but at this sector of affluence, typically people will come to you. So we want to create these incredible meeting spaces where people can operate within the building they live in. The wellness piece for us here is immense, and we're really trying to get smarter with it. We're agnostic in terms of who we operate with when it comes to a spa and wellness standpoint. So really, we work hard with our architectural partners to make sure the wellness piece is first and foremost.

27:32And one question, if I may, you're based, I believe, in Miami. In the US, of course, which is a massive market for Seasons and many other companies as well, is there any part of the US where you're looking at? I mean, because where you are, Miami, I mean, it's incredible. It's a city that is booming. A lot of people are moving there. There's a big Latin American community. So it's quite an interesting one. So from the US perspective what can you tell us about the you know the branded residential sector there sure so i mean miami's you know ground zero miami and dubai i think are the two if you looked across the globe they're those two markets where you think all right there's every single brand imaginable inside of those markets and it's great i think it's really attracted a strong international market and also a domestic market you saw a lot of buyers move down from new york during the pandemic era and they've stayed down here and i think they've realized you know not only is there There's some tax benefits, but there's also just a lifestyle benefit of being down here.

28:29So Miami for us is great, and we've got a phenomenal partner in Ford Partners who really dominates for us in the South Florida market. We have Palm Beach, Fort Lauderdale, Miami, and other projects with them. But when we start to look across the Americas, where we're really trying to focus on is with the standalone residential product, we believe there's about 20 strong markets throughout the US where you have this pocket of affluence that wants to live this lifestyle of really a service culture. And so, you know, from the West Coast all the way across to the East, we're really doing a deep dive into each of these individual markets and trying to find those affluent pockets where we can find not only a great development partner, but a great opportunity.

29:09We are trying to get a greater influence on the West Coast of the US. We don't have a big presence there. We have a phenomenal standalone residential project in LA, which recently sold out. We have a project up in San Francisco and also up in Seattle, but we're trying to get a little deeper into the West Coast market as well. And we were fortunate enough to sign a deal recently in Park City, Deer Valley, which is an alpine project for us, where the market has just received that incredibly well. Nearly 300 million in sales in the first quarter of this year, which would make it our top performing project from a sales perspective.

29:42So it really kind of told us a lot that people are gravitating towards a brand, but more importantly, they're gravitating towards experience. And so that for us, we start to now look at these markets from an experiential standpoint and also from a livability standpoint as well. Another region worth of note for Four Seasons is the Middle East. And you mentioned Dubai there as well. Another region of incredible growth. And I can see the relation you mentioned with Miami, you know, because people want to move there. It is attractive for people from other countries or the nearby region as well to move.

30:15It is. And we're very fortunate. We did Dubai Water Canal, which is a standalone residential project a couple of years back. incredibly well received by the market it sold out relatively quickly but more importantly what we've seen is some of those resales have really elevated the pricing there and we've got a phenomenal partner there in bright star which they're also now doing to buy DIFC for us they're an exceptional partner and I think because of the quality of what they did at water canal people get to see that it's tangible for them yeah a lot of the projects we do you have to buy off plan.

30:48We don't have to buy a plan, but you have the option to buy a plan. And for some, that works. For others, they want to see more tangibility to it. And when we've already got an existing asset within a market, it's always a great showcase for us, especially when they're performed at that sort of execution elegance. We get to point them there to show them what that looks and feels like, which is why we've just seen such robust sales at DIFC. And even in the region in general. We have another residential project in Abu Dhabi. We recently signed one to Russell Khymer. Yeah, we see the whole UAE in particular as a really strong target market for us.

31:23And more importantly, we've also got a strategic corporate office there as well. So we've got great resources on the ground that understand that market really intensely. But it's been a great success for us. And more importantly, we think there's just more growth within the Middle East market in general. Obviously, Saudi for us is a core focus along with a lot of other brands. And we think that's going to do exceptionally well. And so we continue to put a lot of emphasis on those regions, and more importantly, from a resource perspective, but also from a standalone residential perspective. That was Chris Meredith, Group Head of Residential for Four Seasons, and you can find out more by heading over to fourseasons.com.

32:10and that is all for this episode of the entrepreneurs we'll be back at the same time next week the program's produced by laura kramer with audio editing by jack jewers you can listen again and find out more about the program at monocle.com or follow us and browse the archive wherever you get your podcasts. If you'd like to contact the team, do email Laura on lrk at monocle.com. I'm Tom Edwards. Goodbye, and thanks for listening to The Entrepreneurs.