S15E28 - Miles Off or Misunderstood?

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2:06it's like you know when you when you fall off a bike and land on your chest when you try and impress a bird I'm okay I'm okay we got me we got me fuck fucking hell Spurs I just boys I just want I'm joined by Cal and T once again I'm just I just want to be good again I remember when we were good where we didn't have anything to worry about like a bad performance would be because it didn't quite click on this day but a bad performance would be like you know we didn't beat fucking wigging at home we managed to get a draw but it was all sort of clicking like I just can't I just want to go back to 2016 again when everything was great I was about to ask when was that like when did when did that last happen but that's the answer I was going to say against Everton yeah but even that was just and this is the problem isn't it it's like it's two different clubs isn't it it's away Tottenham and home Tottenham away Tottenham are well good and home Tottenham are fucking wank what is going on can you explain it like why like you know you look at the league table and we're like fucking we scored 17 conceded 9 that looks great on paper um you know we're 5th in the league a couple of more wins if we had got them we hadn't lost or drawn a couple then we'd be well sort of rooted into that top 4 position but it all just feels why does it feel horrible why does it feel Can you try and articulate why it might feel horrible?

3:44Because I'm struggling. It felt a bit like last season, really, where teams don't need to be at their best to beat us. They just do enough. It's a bit like when... Who was it? When Ernest Lewis fought David Chua. He knew that Chua had a knockout punch in him, so he just kept him at a distance for the whole fight. He didn't have Chua in any trouble, just won every round. And that's what Chelsea did. Chelsea, like, they let us have the ball. They knew we'd make a mistake. The mistake comes, they get the goal. And it still limited us to, was it 0.05 XG? I think that's the lowest XG since records began.

4:27And I think that was a frustration about it. But I stayed till almost the end because I kind of thought, maybe we'll get a go back. And it felt like we could. It's like it just fell to pieces and it got to their 18-yard box. it's a very very weird game hmm what can you articulate Cal why it might feel like perhaps it's worse than maybe the statistics or the I kind of want to go back to last week when I said we were miles off and you two jumped on me yeah but you say miles off now we wouldn't jump on you we're saying miles off and you're 3-0 up then you understand how this game works Cal right people Yes, I do.

5:09I do. You're right. Yeah, they don't want your honest opinion after a 3-0 win away from home. That's just not the way it works. We've been doing this a long time. You know better, you know more than me about all of this stuff. You're absolutely right. Now you can say we're miles off. We're miles off. Yes, Cal, you're so correct. They said Newcastle and miles behind them, so there. Yeah, and they got beaten by West Ham. They did, didn't they? Yeah, and we went there and tumped them up. It's a mad season. It is a mad season. And there is that. It's where everybody's got money now, haven't they? Everybody's got a couple of quid and everybody's got good players.

5:46And I don't think anybody can beat – I suppose anybody can beat anybody. But you do get freak results. Like Newcastle, you'd expect them to beat West Ham just because West Ham has been so bad. But for us, I think for us, my way of articulating it is even though we've looked really good away from home, it's been set pieces, isn't it? It's been set pieces and long throws and Leeds was the only game where we scored a couple of nice tasty goals whereas the rest of the time it's off a corner, it's off a throw. It's an own goal here. Our own goal was our top scorer for a little while. We've been kind of winning but we've not been winning well or comfortably or sexy.

6:30It's been just, we've been getting through games. I think the home games is where we're being found out a little bit. I was worried about the midfield, the Chelsea midfield. Less so about Enzo, but I was 100 % concerned about Caicedo in midfield. And I was concerned because he's probably, as demonstrated in that game, the best six probably in Europe, definitely in the league. He's mustered. He costs£100 million and it's rare for a player to go for that kind of money. like Enzo has gone for that kind of money hasn't demonstrated it was 115 million I think he was signed for Kai Sado signed for 100 million pound it's like every penny was worth it it's almost like you know if you're in that unfortunate position I've never been in that thankfully right and I'm not sure you two either and it's quite a rare thing but if a bloke who looks like his face has been chiseled out of granite decides to slap your bird's ass as you're walking down the street and you know there's nothing that can be done about him that was kai seda's mid performance in midfield against spurs it was just he was he was unplayable and you used to say he was unplayable for someone who can play football you know someone who's um you know francesco totti for example or zidane unplayable on his you know when he decides to turn it on kai seda is like unplayable on every facet of his game forward play defensive play breaking up it's just it's just I I kind of realise that there's nothing we can do to get like you mentioned like getting through to the final third being an issue but the midfield was a massive issue as well and the pressing from from from Chelsea was an issue as well and like we just keep getting beat by them at home and I can't take it anymore I just I don't want it to be the reality why do we always have to fucking discuss the fucking frouties of our team and why can't we just talk about them being brilliant I don't know there's no question I think the thing that killed me was just how easy Rhys James makes it look like to be a footballer it's so annoying he just doesn't make any mistakes he does everything perfectly and when you get beat like that someone's like they're just having a cigar and just spraying the ball around and you've got a fan trying to slag his sister off.

9:02I don't think he even cared. I don't think he probably heard everything and just walked wherever. What about her appearance out of that? Yeah. That's not nice. It's crass. I won't go into it, but I wasn't part of it. It wasn't very nice. You love that stuff. You were fucking right in there. You were well involved, 100%. It's normally Cal. It's a Cal influence. I mean, you've seen it. you see it all the time these days the Cal influence just yeah disgusting disgusting um I don't know I mean you could say you could say we're miles off but a couple more wins and we're still we're still in it's not like we're we're being cut adrift but the concern is that we play United at home who even though they drew up for us are still somewhat resurgent and then we've got the best team in the country away from home which might not be a bad thing in a few weeks from now.

9:57So by then we could be cut adrift. But I think many of the bad results was important to have another game as soon as possible. So it's not like an international break and stew over it. It's like we're playing tomorrow night, we're playing on Saturday and that might be what we need. And even with the, I'm sure we'll talk about a bit more, the Spence and Randeven thing with the manager. I think it's just good. It's just another game to just get that awful taste of their spunk out of your mouth. You know what I mean? That's what tomorrow night is for me. Yeah, for sure. We're playing Copenhagen tomorrow night.

10:27And if you want to hear us preview that game, then you can do it by becoming a patreon.com forward slash fighting cock. Yeah, just on the Van der Ven Spence thing. So, I mean, anyone who's listened to this would have seen it. Frank was ushering them to go back on the pitch. I don't know why. If you're in the stadium, I've never been in the stadium and we've lost. And on 90, you know, a minute after full time, I haven't been halfway up Tottenham High Road. Maybe not that far, but you know what I mean? I was out. So I don't give a shit if our players have to get beat by Chelsea or Arsenal or whoever else at home are staying on the pitch to clap.

11:03But anyway, Frank, actually just on that, when Spurs have lost at home, do you stand there, do you stand there expecting the players to clap the home support? Do you expect that? I suppose it's one of those things that is expected. personally i'm like you i'm i'm up the i'm up the stairs and i'm you've got heading to beaver town like i'm not i'm not waiting like my way is different in it a way is different because you've traveled uh i don't tea goes to more ways than i do but um yeah a way is different because you've traveled but at home they do i think that they should do it i think they should do it and And it wasn't a good look on Frank that they basically, Spence just waved him off.

11:52Like, he just, fuck off, pussy. I just walked off, waved him off. But I think they should do it. But personally, it wouldn't mean anything to me if I was there. I'd be gone already. Yeah. So Frank said in his press conference this afternoon that both players came into his office unprompted to apologize for what had happened. And it was frustration, not disrespect towards him, the club or the fans is what he said. And his case closed. But let's just sort of linger on the fact that it happened for a bit. What do you think the mindset was from Van der Ven and Spence in that moment? Just pissed off, really.

12:36Neither of them had a particularly good game against our rivals. And it was just a bad defeat, just frustration. it doesn't, it doesn't bother me. It's not like they did a Hossam Gaglia threw their shirt at the manager. It's just, it's clearly frustration. I'm not going to, I'm not going to cancel them over it. You know, you know, they cared, you know, and that's kind of what it showed me. I mean, I think that... Do you think there's frustration at the fans' reaction to the performance or do you think it's frustration at just losing? I think it's a combination. I mean, the fans are booing and they probably, they probably felt a bit put out by that.

13:15You know, Vakairi's made some comments about that as well. So I think it's probably the fans being there thinking, well, we were shitting the fans, let's just get the fuck out of here sort of thing. But I don't know. I personally think it's a nothing story. It wasn't even the official cameras, was it? It was someone basically filming on their camera after the final whistle and putting it to the world. I mean, if he hadn't done that, maybe no one sees it. Bit of a weird flex for me, but... What about you, Kyle? What do you make of it? Yeah, like I said, I think it doesn't look good for Frank that they've ignored him, but they were pissed off.

13:56They were just, they were pissed off. They're human beings. They're young men, both, you know, what, they're 25, under 25. They're young, they're young guys. And they were fucked off. And then they just thought, fuck this, we're going off the pitch. It didn't, it was a bit of a nothing. It was a bit of a nothing story. I think the biggest disappointment is that they went into the office to apologise to him. They shouldn't have done it. They should have doubled down. Doubled down. Yeah. Just ignored every instruction in training today. They said, all right, lads, we're going to do the cones now.

14:25Just ignore him. Just fuck off. It's like booting the ball out of the pit. Can I just say as a stepdad, if what effectively is two of your subordinates are ignoring your instruction, i.e. stepchildren, then that's a problem. You have to deal with that very quickly. Yeah, get the belt out. It needs John Sittons to get the belt out. I'm not talking about beating children. I'm just... Get the belt out, for fuck's sake. Get the strap, man. It's got to be done.

14:59Just put the pot on the table. I don't know. Maybe. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe the world's going soft. Maybe that's what somebody needs. Maybe these kids need a fucking whipping. T's got his in a glass case on his living room wall up there. He just puts on like a leather glove. Like, you know, one of them spandex gloves so he doesn't get any sort of residue from the kind of tissue that he's about to destroy. That was dark, wasn't it? That was too much. Just a bit. That was too much, wasn't it? Yeah, but obviously for Frank, in the same way that Nuno was like embarrassed by Marienakis coming on the pitch, like exposed in front of the world and bear in mind you know potentially millions of people are watching or have probably watched that that clip um that for him to to have his uh authority challenged in a way that when they just walk off the pitch like that is is uh is an issue that needs to be dealt with obviously it has been dealt with and both players according to thomas frank and you have to believe him, I'm sure it is.

16:05Neither of them come across as like two people that would in any way try to make the world more difficult because they willed it to happen. So, you know, I don't think it was a big issue. I do understand what you're saying though about the bloke. If you're a Spurs fan and you took that footage and you stick it up, you're a wrong one. Like, why? Why? Unless you hate Thomas Frank, why? Clicks, man, isn't it? people do anything for internet points man it's true it kind of made me think about um all or nothing when was it delhi was in the dressing room and goes all we do is fucking score and then we just kick it long and defend and that kind of mutiny that that kind of mutiny against it was it was a veiled mutiny against marino ball and it made that that moment even Obviously, we didn't see inside the changing room.

16:59It made me feel that same sort of thing. It was almost like a very small, and in a microcosm, a split-second thing. It made me think of that mutiny against the tactics because that was really bad. That was really, really bad at the weekend. Yeah, yeah, it was. So the question was posed to Frank about the style of play narrative. He pushed back on the fact that it was defensive. He said his teams have always scored goals, and he's confident Spurs will too. The evidence this season, regardless of what you think about the way those goals were scored, we've put 17 on the board already, which is impressive.

17:38We conceded nine, is it a 10? So we are, in terms of scoring goals, it isn't an issue. I think it's the way the goals are scored is the issue. There was so little in terms of the creativity. I think at Everton, even though we won 3-0, again, creativity was an issue. Creativity has been an issue throughout the season. And we brought Xavi Simmons in to be the person or the footballer who solves that creativity issue. But I think he's having a tough time with it. But I also think he's been hung out to try a little bit. he's not only having to perform in a role that's difficult because the number 10 role in the Premier League is very difficult to do well.

18:36On top of that, he's having to learn the game. On top of that, there isn't a midfield around him really. He's got players in front of him, but when it's played into him by Palina or Porro or whoever it is that finds him in that 10 role, he's got so little space and so under so little understanding of the speed that the premier league asks of players in his position that not only is he being ineffective but he's also having to learn at the same time and it's just i know the sort of narrative around him is going to be that he's shit we should bomb him out he's rubbish he's too lightweight all that sort of stuff yeah i know all the obvious jokes that can be made about him but the reality is that you have to understand what's being asked here.

19:20So is it either you carry on with him or you give up on him at this stage? Or Frank changes the way we play and supports the forward play a little bit more? I think James Madison would struggle a little bit in this system, the way we're seeing right now. I think the goal, I've not actually seen the goal of the best, have I never seen it once? but I think what's indicative of the goal is just his unwillingness to I don't know I think it's just like bereft of confidence like why would he I mean the player that we've been sold is not someone who's going to pass the ball back in a situation that is you know trust himself to drive forward and you know he's a basketball fan he knows about drawing contact to getting the foul and slowing the game down and resetting he could have easily done that could have just tried to take a man on dive get the foul hopefully and then you just put your foot on the ball let everyone settle down because at that moment it was just kind of like I don't know it's a bit like when you make one mistake and then you try and fix it and then make a bigger one and that's what that's what was happening throughout that whole movement it wasn't all on him because I think Spence also lost the ball in that as well but I feel like for the first time yesterday I felt like something that there were fans turning on him a lot.

20:37And even when he got subbed off, there wasn't, I would not say that there was mass cheering, but I think there was a smattering of Iwanic applause being a sub, getting subbed off. And it's tough for the reasons Flav has pointed out. It's a new league, a difficult league, a fast league. He's not, you know, he's very small, he's very slight, gets bars off the ball very easily. Someone like Luka Modric who's smaller than him, but Modric is a hard bastard. And I think maybe Zavi Zeman is going to have to learn that over the next eight, nine months. But the glaring thing for me is just a lack of daring, a lack of trust, because he was kind of, he's this maverick footballer who will happily take a risk and take people on.

21:20And him passing it back to Van der Ven just felt symbolic of his time here so far, apart from the Leeds half that we'll talk about forever. That's kind of my feeling. Do you think, though, that what we've got, what's happening on the pitch and the lack of sort of, it feels like a lack of confidence and the options that are potentially available to him or to whoever's in that role. Like when Jed Spence took the ball for their first goal, he took the ball, lost it. Then it went back to Van der Ven, he lost it. It was almost like there was just nothing for them to do other than just pump it out, which is fine in that moment you are at, which is what my dad said he said well why didn't they just kick it out but they can't kick it out forever we have to have a system in place that enables us to work out those difficult circumstances and be impressed in in our own half and finding a way around it that's that's the way forward and sometimes you'll make mistakes to to get to that inevitable ending but at the moment it just feels like i don't kind of i i i can't i don't know if where where where this missed performance is coming from is it that that is it the tactics laid out by frank or is it that the player's not good enough do we not have the right profile what what is it or is just the game now about sort of sort of direct sort of set pieces and the individuals really don't matter and it's about getting into a position where you can have a fucking throw on or whatever it might be i just I'm kind of struggling to understand what's going on with football at the moment.

23:02I don't know how you feel, boys. Have you got anything to say, Cal? I think the league's hard now. Everybody's got good players now. Everybody spends money. Everybody's got money to spend. And I think at the weekend, if just looking at that game in a microcosm just as it was, I think you're right. I think the league has got a bit more. I remember I remember talking with you and Alex the other week about the Arsenal Newcastle game and Alex loved it I fucking hated it I was just like it's just loads of corners wrestling on corners long throws I hated it I that's not what I want to watch when I'm watching a game that's not involving Tottenham when it's involving Tottenham you just want to win and that's about the end of it really but I don't want to watch that like loads of grappling in the box and it's like fucking NFL um but with with that game in a microcosm I think Frank's never had to deal with Champions League football before and even European football he's never had to he's never managed a Premier League club in Europe before and every three days he's used to having a week to prepare his team for whatever game it is and he's had three days to prepare us for prepare us for Chelsea who've spent billions of pounds on good play and and have a midfield that's fucking unbelievable and some really, really other good players as well.

24:23And even with the injuries they had, we're still miles behind them, even with the injuries, although we have injuries ourselves. But I think in those three days preparation, I think he's put together a really convoluted plan that's just completely baffled the players. He played Kudus. Our attacking outlets were Mouane and Kudus, and that was about it. And then Poro on the right and maybe Spence on the left. Suspense is quite a defensive fullback. He carries the ball, but he's not going to get goals and get assists. He played four central midfielders, and none of which are really attack-minded central midfielders.

25:00And then Xavi had to come on because Bereval got a concussion. And I just think he just completely confused the players with what they're doing. And then Simmonds has had to come on, and he's just gone, just do what Bereval was doing. And they just looked lost. They just looked completely lost. Lost by what Frank was doing, or they couldn't react to how well Chelsea were playing. I think that's... Yeah, a bit of both. I think they pressed... I think Chelsea had plans for us. Obviously, the thing with the long throws, they pushed three players up and that meant we had to push three players up or, yeah, we had to send three players back to cover them because if they clear the ball, then they're in.

25:37There's space for Sanchez to catch the ball. Yeah, yeah, and that's it. There's more space for him. But I do think that in those three days, they just weren't tactically ready to put together that plan. Instead of just going right, you know, Odderberg on the left, Kudus on the right, Xavi at 10, Bentancourt and Paulinha, it's not the team I'd have played. I probably would have played one of Sar or Bereval with Paulinha. They know what they're doing to an extent, go and have a go and go and win the game. Instead, he puts on this really convoluted thing with four central midfielders and Kudus. And I think they just didn't know what they were doing.

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27:22Turn it up. Storm has zero sugar and 200 milligrams of caffeine. So you can turn that workout up a notch. Good energy in, good energy out. Energy for life. Chelsea did. They looked fitter, sharper, and they had more of an idea of what they were doing. we just got out he got out for on the day or or he thought he knew and then it just didn't work out like it just it just got playing yeah it was just it was a terrible performance it really was um lucas bovel's concussion and what he thought about that uh t so he the ball was hit at sort towards the back of his head which is always an issue we watch boxing we know how important it is to avoid getting punched on the back of the head and the damage it can be done um i didn't think anything of it i thought he was innocuous at the time and obviously he was being interviewed or examined rather by the the coaches and the physio uh the doctor rather and um there was a moment where he was it was weird the interaction was like he was acting strange like he sort of lashed out to a certain degree he pushed the the coach and and then it came to a point where you had to be assessed and then um and then thomas frank said you know well obviously made the decision to bring simmons on and he wasn't happy bare of hell but what did you make of that because there was a lot of snowflake stuff on on uh on twitter which is uh which is obviously funny but unless you know you end up with alzheimer's when you're 60 then it's less funny isn't it boys yeah it was about this isn't to take him off I mean it's frustrating as it is I don't know if it's a concussion sub that gives us an extra sub doesn't it yeah it didn't count as a normal sub desk so to speak but um yeah I don't know if um I mean Carl talked about the the plan that Frank had maybe a lot of it centered on Bergvall because Bergvall is a bit of a Swiss army knife so to speak he can play behind the strike and he can play in front of the defense and with his um engine and his size now because he's quite slight when he joined him not being there I don't think there's anyone who can maybe do what he does as well and Simon's isn't really cut out to do what what Birdville's assignment was so there was an element of that it was um it was frustrating to come off I think he might be out for two weeks.

29:49So that's a massive loss. 12 days he has to be out for. And it could be up to 21 days, depending on how well he reacts to, you know. It's on his food. Yeah. He's drinking for a straw, then eating for a straw rather than, yeah, maybe 21 days. But generally it's 12 days. Yeah, I think the Arsenal came in 22nd, so he'll be the pack for that. There's an international break, isn't there? in between. Yeah. After United. So hopefully he misses the international break if that's anything. But he was, you could see it, like he was looking down a lot. He was bickering with the coaches a lot. And you could see he wasn't with it at all.

30:30Just the way he went down, you could see he was definitely concussed. I don't think that was in question really. It was the right choice, definitely. Do you remember the last player that got concussed at Spurs and played on? Hugo Lloris, Everton? Good shout out. Maybe it was that one. I was thinking of another one. All right, give me another one. I can't think of any others. Jan Vertonghen? What happened to him? He got a head injury and then it was, I think it was Mourinho, actually. No, no, it was Pochettino, actually. In 2019, got a head injury. I think it was in Europe and stayed on and then was sick all over the pitch and then they took him off.

31:09Remember that? Oh, God. I don't remember. You need Terry Butcher back, man. You need some of that shit, man. Blood all over the shirt, man. That's what you want. When men were men. Do you think there's an issue here? Because if this was Brentford, obviously that start to the season, people would be waxing lyrical about Brentford and about Thomas Frank and how good they are and how they can compete in the Premier League. And he's achieved the same result at Tottenham and it's not good enough. The style of play is not good enough. And the media pressure around Spurs is completely different to Brentford and the expectations from the Tottenham Hotspur fan base given the amount of money that it costs to watch Spurs but also the amount of money that's spent on the squad playing in that amazing stadium that we you know get to watch them play in but the reality is that it's still football right it's still 11 men versus 11 it's the tactics that a certain manager will use to get the best result in these eyes and so the media and pressure are intangibles right they're stories are happening around a football club they're not real to the point where um it affects the the outcomes of what thomas frank wants to do on the training pitch and and what players are bought.

32:30But what we as fans become obsessed with, and I'm obsessed with, is the fact that I want Spurs to be something and they're not that right now. And so my feelings towards Thomas Frank and what's happening may be skewed and I'm ignoring the fact that we have, you know, we are fifth in the league and whatnot. He acknowledged the pressure and he understood the pressure would be a thousand times more than it would be at Brentford. And I was talking to a Brentford fan, Adam, who was on the lab, did a podcast with Adam on the lab, and he's a Brentford fan. And he just said to me, and I was messaging him, and he said, I just hope he gets time.

33:12Because if he gets time, he'll get it right, and Spurs will do well. But he kind of feels like, I don't know, will he get time? We don't do that here. Well, that's the problem. Are we the problem? if we don't give a good manager time to... I know we don't do it. We don't do that. I agree. I'm already thinking about the next manager. I am. But if we don't do it here and we have a good manager, then we are the problem. Yeah. I think there was a real risk of us getting pumped yesterday. We could have... Sorry, yesterday, Saturday. Shout out Vacario, by the way. Fuck yeah, he's on great form, isn't he?

33:51And I dug him out a few pods ago. We all did, but we were wrong. Yeah, we were all wrong. We were all wrong. You more than me. But we were all wrong. I was wrong. Yeah. And he's been great. He's been great. But if we'd have lost three or four on Saturday, I think the noise would have got loud. I think it would have got really loud. But I think you're right. I think we can't. And I was thinking that yesterday. I've had the weekend to myself in the house. I don't do well when I'm on my own. I'm not. COVID weren't good for me. right but um i did think to myself over the weekend this weekend nothing they did barely left the house barely left the house to be honest just how many hot dogs have you in i don't when did i have when did i have that hot dog at costco's when did i have that when did i go was it i'm obsessed with cow's diet thursday or something my brother it was friday it was friday my brother texts me friday morning half nine do you want to meet up hot dog you want to go costco you want to go costco i was like yeah go on then what's what's costco costco is like wholesalers it's like you can get food there oh it's the best america american listeners will know all about this because it's an american company and when the guy sold when the guy who originally owned costco sold the company he did so he had a clause entered into the sale agreement that the price of the hot dog couldn't go up.

35:13That the hot dog and a drink stays, I think it's$1.50 or something like that. And that is the same over here. It's like£1.50,£1.99 for a hot dog and a Coke. And it was half 10. And I've said to my brother, is it too early for a hot dog? And he goes, never too early for a hot dog. That's exactly what I wanted to hear. Yeah, me and him were hammering hot dogs at half 10 in the morning. When you say hammering, how many did you have? I only had one. I was going to say, like Wimpy and Popeye, man. I did walk out and have a rack of baby back ribs as well. What is it when you go to Ikea, for example, when you like, I think it's the men, right?