S15E38 - The Rise And Rise Of Archie Gray

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1:58hello and welcome back to the fight god podcast it's q a thursday it's thursday it's q a thursday means whatever you lot ask we have to talk about and um i asked the wonderful followers on instagram and i went on reddit and i forgot to do twitter but it doesn't matter because we've got big bad ben bowman boom and come on boom and and we've got felonious filth how you doing mate all good all good before getting knee deep into the questions i i want to talk about archie gray there seems to be lots of chatter around him right and i'm gonna just so we're just gonna do like a couple of minutes just figure out what you guys think about what you see them could be and his importance to Tottenham and because he hasn't had a decent fair crack at a whip before the last two free games at Spurs you'd argue and that midfield of Paulina and Benzikor has been preferred pretty much for the entire season and I've got to say and then being honest right occasionally I'll have to do some work where there are Leeds fans there and they always ask but what do you think of Archie Gray like really hopeful and like that I'm about to say something and before this month i've been like um i mean he's very mature very mature for his age handles pressure brilliantly they're like they were like that's not enough for them they know how good he is and it's in this last two or three games i think i i and and the game at left black when he was out he played against monaco where i thought yes i see it i absolutely see it i'm very excited for the future.

3:35Ben, what's your, in a nutshell, assessment of Archie Gray? Yeah, I really like him. He's made a noticeable difference in midfield last couple of games. Is it three starts? He started throughout the last four because he started Fulham, didn't he, obviously? And in that game, to be fair, it did look like things were happening around him a little bit. He was kind of just almost just a bit, you never want to say out of his depth, but it just looked like the game was passed him by. But I think we were just badly disorganised in that game and it was just a mess from the start. But in the last couple of games where there's been a better kind of structure around him and we've played in a more aggressive manner, I think he's risen to that really well.

4:15And I think it's his temperament and his calmness, but also his ability to kind of drive the game on as well, which I really do like. He's made a noticeable difference in that midfield that's been really sludgy and kind of stodgy all season. He adds legs, which I think you could get that from Saar, you get that from Bergvau as well but there's just something about his temperament and his and that calmness on the ball which I really like um and he kind of especially against um especially against uh Slavi Prague the other day like even just like like the the runs forward the forward passing like he set up the chance for Odderberg he set up the penalty as well just being positive just playing forward and you can kind of see him just growing in confidence a little bit and I feel like We just look like a much better team when he plays.

5:02I remember there was a pre-season game against Newcastle, against a tough midfield out in Asia. He really stood up to that in terms of the physicality, but also just keeping his head, playing his own game. He's brilliant. Against Brentford on Saturday, I think it was the highest percentage of his passes were forward, made five passes since the final third, I think, as well. It's just that progression in midfield has been lacking. I don't think he's naturally that passer-type profile that we probably still need like a Wharton or maybe an Anderson but he still gives you that. He still gives you a lot of thrust going forward and I just like his attitude as much as anything and I do think last season the hardship that he went through will make him a better player as well so I'm excited to see if he can get a run in the team.

5:44You mean being forced to play in the centre-back and call-backs in the team? That's when the Leeds fans ask you, oh, what about you? He's like, well, he's not playing centre-back anymore. He's like, is he playing in midfield? Yeah. He was, I mean, you've got to remember he could take you back to last season, T. only was he having to play an 18 year old playing centre back he's never played there before but on top in a spur side where they were just under barrage and barrage of attack like we'd lose the ball in our final in their final third and that almost equaled a shot on target with Ange last year and he was in the middle of all that really difficult games and you know we got battered in those games but he sort of came away with it a lot with some credit and part of that is probably because of his age and he did well, but no one expected much from him.

6:27But that experience would definitely have helped him and develop him in a certain way. And yeah, he's a player beyond his years, in my opinion. There was a highlights package that I shared on the WhatsApp group. And so much of his work, because it's kind of metronomic and tidy, sort of goes unnoticed. Because when you're watching a game, You're kind of waiting, trying to watch or find or see how they're trying to build. And you're not really focusing on individual performances unless something really massive happens, or if it's a striker at the end of the move. But when this compilation was made, you just think he basically knits everything together.

7:10Good at carrying the ball, good at passing, or excellent at passing, and just in no way intimidated by being on the pitch. Is that a fair assessment, Steve? Yeah, I think he's got, he's definitely got the spirit, you know, I mean, he's got a spirit where he's just, you know, never say die attitude because even up to this season, you know, there are doubts about him, I mean, for me anyway. The Doncaster game was one that stands out to me where it was a lower league side and he was fucking rubbish and they were bullying him as well. And I just thought, you know, what the fuck's going on here? But the last, I think since the PSG game, really, when he started at Bergwahl that we can just see that, you know, he's kept at it and the manager's obviously got faith in him.

7:48and that's kind of reflected in Grae's performances. I've been very impressed with him. He might be a late shot for the World Cup, but I think he'll definitely be an England regular in the future. Not now, but yeah, I think, you know, I'm looking forward to seeing what he's got to offer this season, I'd say. Is he a six or an eight? I can do both. I think he's more of an eight. Yeah, I think he can give you the defensive stuff that like a... Oh, what's that? i think it's my i don't know go and get it and bring it back to the screen whatever it is this is gonna be funny actually because i know what it is go on go on bring it back bring it back while we're waiting for ben have you um have you ever eaten something boiling hot really quickly and now basically before we started recording i was starving i haven't eaten i've been working all day and i've already pushed the boys back 10 minutes and i had this sort of ready meal that i'd made from that from i'd heated up in the microwave from mark suspensors and i've swallowed it and i feel like i've got a molten a ball of molten lava in my thumb in my stomach it's really uncomfortable that's commitment yeah man i had to get it down let's get it get it you know get rid i'd get rid of it see i'm having a commitment you know i mean down for the cause you know very much an archie great type performance there flav yeah indeed so any innards right what what is it it's uh So I'm going to the darts on Saturday.

9:16Oh, yeah. So it's my fancy dress costume. Okay. What is it? So we did the theme of Pixar films. Right. And basically, I just left it a bit late because I was like, you know what? You know what it's like, busy. Couldn't find something. And then I ordered it last week. It's a Mike Wazowski from Monsters League. That's going to be the biggest Mike Wazowski's ever been. I probably should have gone with Sully, but... That's what I was going to say. Yeah, yeah, that would have made so much more sense. The thing with Sully, it was like they were all like onesies. And I was like, it's going to be so fucking hot in there.

9:53I was like, I'm not wearing that. So I went for Mike Wazowski. So I'm not trying it on, but I'll... No, fair, fair. What is it? I'll send it a pic later. That's the back. Oh, yeah. You're going to be easy to spot on TV. Is it a world darts? Yeah, yeah. It starts tonight, doesn't it? Yeah, mate. I love that. One of the best things about Christmas is all the darts going in. It's the only time of the year I watch it, to be fair. So in terms of our midfield, what is our best midfield? We know we want Xavi Simmonds in it at the tip of it, right? So what is that partnership? Is it Paulina and Gray? Or is it Gray?

10:30What is it? Sar? Bergeval? What are you feeling? I think we all want to see Bergeval and Gray at some point, don't we? like play together because you know especially as we've I know things have kind of bounced back over the last couple of games but where we've been going for a bit more of a difficult period fans are just naturally more forgiving with these younger brave and exciting kind of talents right but I do think I would probably say at the moment it's Gray and Bentoncourt I'd probably I would probably say just for that bit of balance I think Bentoncourt always looks a better player when he's not playing with Paulina and to be fair to Frank I think he's kind of moved on from that pivot now I think Bentoncourt, when he's just playing in a pivot, but he's naturally a bit more of the sitter, I think that's probably where we've seen the best out of him when he's been partnered with someone else that's not Paulini this season.

11:19I think Gray gives you those legs to go up and down. He's just, again, like I said before, his temperament. Maybe he doesn't fully trust Bergvall slightly deeper yet because he's a bit more brave. And we all really like that. And I think we all see Bergvall as someone that can play in there. But he seems to fancy Bergvall as more of a 10 at the moment, which I don't really like. but I also think maybe that's just because he's waiting for Kulzevski to come back from injury or whatever. And once that does, the squad picture becomes a bit more clear. It's an option, isn't it? It's an option. Rather than him being the 10.

11:47Yeah. I would probably say at the moment, although I'd love to see Gray and Bergvau together, I'd probably go Gray and Benton Kaur is the preferred. There's actually, literally today, there was a really good article that the Opta analyst put out about Archie Gray, like analysing his sort of time. But so far, what he can be. He can be the, it's kind of like he can be the progressive midfielder that Tottenham need. So that's probably worth a read for anyone. I've literally just seen it now. It's mad, isn't it? It's just this kind of like sudden buzz around him. Yeah. If Athletic are writing articles around him, they might.

12:17That's a good thing, isn't it? In terms of the fans, as I mentioned, we do work with fan narrative and they put together some work around the fans' most favourite pairing in midfield. And you're right, Ben. Bereval is number one, followed by, well, I actually can't tell. They've said Xavi. They've put Xavi in there, but I don't know. Sort of redundant. Saar, and the least favorite, is Paulina, which is interesting. The time has turned. Have you, you've been listening to too much. You've been listening to too much kish, you have. He's like, I won. But at what cost? Have you made TikTok about? Me?

13:05What, Paulinha? Yeah. No, I mean, I don't, I'm not as extreme on Paulinha as he is, I'd say. What's your thoughts on him? Well, I think it's been quite noticeable that even in recent games, you've seen that he's dropped out of the, if you look at like the top tackles and interceptions in the Premier League for midfielders, like the one thing that he was doing really well at the start of the season, it feels like the one thing that we bought him for. He's kind of nowhere near those metrics now. So it's not even like he's necessarily doing his job to his best ability. and also still offering us nothing on the ball.

13:36I still think he's a valuable member of the squad for the short term in terms of someone that can rotate in and can close out games and those kind of things. I think it's important. In the WhatsApp group, didn't you say, send him back? I think you said. Send him back. I don't think I said that. Or was it Cal? No, I said send him back in the summer. I think Cal said send him back, yeah. No, you said it. You said get him out. Basically, get him out of my football club right now and buy Wharton. Yeah, I mean, all of us. Yeah, we'd dream of it. Who wouldn't do that? Yeah, you'd be a fucking nutcase.

14:06It was interesting that he's dropped off in that way. I didn't know that. But, you know, plays go through form. I'm sure he'll be back. Yeah. In the right circumstances. I'm with you. I'm kind of... I don't know how you feel about this team. But when we're playing against a team that I feel like we're dominating the ball, I'm always surprised if Paulini is picked. Yeah. I don't think Frank is used to having a team that dominates the ball. And I think he's dying to get used to it a lot more now with his selections. and there's a lot to be said for us being in the Champions League and having all these extra games, but I think it's helpful in terms of squad selection because it's given Archie Gray an opportunity, for one.

14:43If you were out of the League Cup and had no Europe, then we might have been doing more tinkering in the league. But at least the way this Champions League format is, it enables you to try different formats and different players out. So there's definitely a benefit being in that. But Paulina, I think he's got enough experience. He'll be useful this season. Maybe not now, but I think as the season goes on, he'll be fine. On that Archie Gray thing, sorry, I just was looking at that article and summarised some of the bits. So Paulina, in terms of the Tottenham midfielders, leads, well, actually still leads the league in tackles, I think it says here.

15:20It was 61, despite playing only 76 % of minutes and completes just 4.6 % progressive passes, while Gray is 5.8 % of his passes are progressive higher than both Bentoncourt and Paulina and he averages 6.8 % progressive carries per 90 which is the most of any Spurs midfielder and he contributes 1.2 tackles and 1.2 interceptions per 90 and he very rarely gives the ball away either. Just getting played then. Just getting played. Just getting played. In terms of fan sentiment around him across the board, we have around 45 % positive about 50 % neutral. And as ever, there's 5 % negative, which as we explained in the last podcast, it keeps us honest, doesn't it?

16:09That 5 % of Spurs fans who just fucking hate everything. That's so funny. But it's the same. I don't think Archie Gray has done anything really to not... I can get if you're neutral about him. That's fine. I get if you're positive about him. I can't believe there's 5 % of people out there going, nah shit mate he is he is rubbish get him out um yeah good uh let's uh let's do some questions then because this is what it's all about and i enjoyed this one the first one uh better call tom he says one for flub is everything okay your analogy is often referred to you cheating on your wife or your dad beating up your mum just wanted to make sure you're not suppressing any dark desires or dealing in any untreated trauma i don't have talked about my dad beating up my mom ever i might have used it but no no of course not and i would never cheat on my wife i don't think i'd ever said that either actually um yeah uh mojo's 38 38 has been listening for years is it really felonious and not felonious is it t-h-e-l-o-n-i-u-s or f-e-l-o-n-i-u-s it's on all my social media handles man and look at me committed a bunch of crimes felony um no it's just like felonious monk the jazz musician to look up look him up it's about like his yeah um united post said Xabi Xabi Alonso looks on the brink at Real Madrid.

17:45Would the pod swap him right now for Thomas Frank? Oh, no. And it's weird me saying that because I've kind of been under threat. I'm not sure. I'm not sure. I'm not sure about his brand of football if it's really going to be that useful for Spurs. You'd give it a go. You'd wait and see. You'd want to find out. I think I'd probably do it for him more than I would for Glasner and Silva. So I'll say that. Yeah, I would be the same. I'd be 100 % the same. I feel like Glasner and Silva and Iriola, although I think they're all good managers, I think. Xabi Alonso is one that you would take. He's got a bit of stardust about him, I think, as well.

18:26I think you'd have similar issues with those guys in terms of maybe scaling up. But maybe we've scored five goals in two games and not conceded, so maybe Frank is... I don't know the Messiah you're out of your mind anyone who said no this isn't a slight of Frank this is just to say that what he achieved with Leverkusen was insane like he went the season unbeaten and beat Bayern Munich with a team of players he shot the better at Atlanta though didn't he yeah no yeah he did actually and that would have meant that he that would have been undefeated in all competitions but it was the final at Atlanta yeah yeah so there was that too yeah you're right that's the 5 % if he became available then he'd probably be one of the ones he would end a Frank experiment and do it but yeah I don't know I think Frank deserves to see the season I've got us done by that yeah I agree yeah I did want Frank out after the Fulham game but I just think it was just so bad and so angry off the back of Arsenal as well and I do think he should probably see the season now also Alonso is so destined to go to Liverpool isn't he That is 100 % happening.

19:38Of course. But I think he is the manager that you would take. Yeah, he's well worth the gamble. I don't think he would come. I think he's just waiting for that Liverpool job. Yeah, definitely. Ryokoka says, Why have I never realised until now how big Thomas Frank's ears are? They are massive. Not a Champions League trophy. Yeah, you know that your ears never stop growing as well. So what are they going to be like when he's like 80? Yeah. Stan Linfield says, what are your thoughts on our fans' home atmosphere at the moment? I know the fans are frustrated with the last couple of months, but I think we should aim to make the stadium a fortress, like Sunderland, for example.

20:19If they can do it, why can't we? Go on, Flav. Totally different context. This is your hobby horse. What did you say? This is your hobby horse, Flav. Go on. No, I mean, I've talked about this a lot. I mean, the reason why we...

20:38I don't want to tread our ground, so I'm not going to go and tell you of all the reasons. If you've listened to the podcast before, you'll know there's tons of reasons why the atmosphere is bad, and it's down to Venkatesham to sort that out. Reducing prices for certain games will help, but really working with people like Return of the Shelf and Change for Tottenham to assist in creating areas of the stadium that will enable like-minded fans to come and get together and sing and and do all those things that generate atmosphere and you don't need many mate by the way you know you have 400 500 people just a constant rhythm rhythm to it it just picks up and undulates that's what the whole part lane used to be like it wasn't like people talked about how amazing the atmosphere at the part lane was it was it was at times incredible but it was like a certain section of one block that would sing and and when something good would lap and everyone would get involved and if we were really on top the whole fucking stadium would start to go so it's just having that heartbeat in the stadium that just isn't there at the moment and i think the club are aware of the plans that return on the shelf are have put in place they've put together one of the most professional presentations i've ever seen and so it demonstrates to the club that they're serious about it you can't compare us to sunderland they're their first season in the premier league they've been out of the league for 17 years or something mental like that and they're flying.

22:02It's not the same. But I remember when Stoke came up, they used to call... Was it Roker Park back then? Or was it... Britannia. Britannia, yeah. Roker Park was Sunderland, wasn't it? All right, that's where my brain went. What was their stadium before where they went to Britannia? Stoke. Victoria. Ground, I think. Victoria. Yeah. They called it the Bear Pit. The Bear Pit. and when no one called it the bear pit when they'd been in the in the in the premier league for four or five years and there's nothing like success to kill an atmosphere because the level of expectation goes up goes through the roof and people become expectant and when they're disappointed they're less likely to to sing and get behind the team so i think arsenal are a good example of that despite actually not having any tangible success over the last five or six years yeah they um There are a lot of Arsenal mates that I've got of kind of, well, actually a lot of Arsenal mates I've got don't even fucking go.

23:05But the ones that do go, they're like, the atmosphere has got a lot worse. They've had a lot of similar problems with like the ballot and the ticketing system and all that kind of thing. But also I think it's that, I do think it is that level of expectation. It does kind of change things. It infinitely makes things a little bit more tense and you become expectant. There's not as like, right, we're just going to get behind the team no matter. And they've always been fairly fair weather them lot anyway. You become desperate to win, doesn't it? Yeah, exactly. it just it does change i just think that there was obviously there was a lot of chat about the slavia game the other night and i was listening to i i was listening to alistair gold's youtube video last night he was basically saying that tottenham i didn't realize this tottenham weren't allowed to actually put the game on general sale which could have then driven up the attendance by like another five ten thousand maybe obviously with sonny coming back it would have drank because the prague fans it was yeah it was the fears of slavia prague fans getting in the home which they did anyway because I was there was loads around me um so the attendance was obviously 47 ,000 but also like that could have been filled up by season ticket holders and members anyway if they'd actually priced it in a more sensible manner and there's obviously there's two more games in the Champions League well one more home game in the Champions League league phase obviously we got used to that with Europa League last year the club should do more things like being proactive enough to kind of like maybe make a package so the games are slightly cheaper and kind of you're far more likely to commit to it if you're applying it in bulk and you feel like you're getting a bit of a discount and there's just like there's so many things that we've spoken about this where it's not necessarily just down to the prices of the tickets but it's also fans feel like they're getting ripped off for the tiniest feel like Ricky when we did the pod after the Fulham game when he was talking about having to pay the what was it like 15 20 quid to transfer yeah or you have to have you have to have a membership which if you don't have one cost you 50 quid yeah but didn't he say his daughter he brought his daughter right I'm sure he said his daughter had got a membership but it was the difference in price between obviously his dad's a senior citizen and obviously his daughters obviously not so it's like you had to pay the basically even though you've already bought the season ticket prior to the start of the season you can't just transfer the ticket over to someone else that's in your circle without paying I think stuff like that does really create it's those little things that add up over time that really create that disconnect and I think those are the little bridges that the club have got to build but also I think it's dictated by results at the end of the day you saw like T you were there on Saturday when we went one no up and then Javi Simons scored that goal it's that release that we've been waiting for people will get behind the team and it's like we we need to see something as well it's like it's transactional but it's transactional both like it goes both ways we we obviously do get behind the team and we should be better at that in terms of maybe just sticking by them in no matter what but also you need to see something we've not seen anything at home prior to these last two games to really get behind so results will improve it but also the club have got to do their bit if your business runs on five different apps, 12 browser tabs, and one spreadsheet that everyone's afraid to touch, it's probably time for Odoo.

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26:41Learn more at odoo.com. That's O-D-O-O dot com. This episode is brought to you by Google Chrome. You think you know a browser, but Gemini and Chrome? That's new. It can help you with practically anything on the web, like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50-page restoration block, or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Gemini and Chrome is here for it. Ready to make anything online make sense? There's no place like Chrome. Check responses set up required, compatibility and availability varies 18+.

27:14That's the sound of zero sugar, 200 milligrams of caffeine, and the power to burn body fat. Storm, energy for life. Storm Energy Blend helps boost metabolism, which in combination with exercise and a healthy diet helps burn fat. This product alone does not produce weight loss. Individual results may vary. Yeah. And a lot of this is legacy from Levy's administration, remember. So they have an opportunity to look at all this stuff and make amends and make difference and bring the supporters in and make them feel like we're all working together for the betterment of Tottenham Hotspur. Also, you know, there was lots, the stuff about building go-kart tracks and the NFL, the NFLification of the league, of the stadium, rather, all of that chips away at your feeling and your identity, and not least the amount of money it costs to go inside the stadium.

28:08So, yeah, I think that answers your question. Everybody would love it to be a fortress and be loud and bouncing, but you need to address some of the reasons why before that's possible I think Lucky Lavenders sorry go on go on team yeah they've got a drum but it's like he plays a bit and then he stops well could be she or they but play for a bit then they just stop they don't just keep it going for like the entire game to get any chance going I think there is a little group of them around the drum that's kind of like a sort of singing area but from where I sit I can't hear them that's another issue with this David because the stadium's so big it's difficult to to get songs going because there'll be by the time their song has got down to my end my end is singing something else and so on and so on so I think as Flav said they're returning the show off or doing some work with the club and hopefully the result of that is as Ben said fairer prices and a better atmosphere yeah I also think that one of the things with the drum is that and this is a whole separate debate but like they are instructed by the club not to start chants using the Y word.

29:17That's right. I think that also, just in terms of like being able to sing songs that everybody will just pick up on and everybody will know and it feels familiar and comfortable, they're not allowed to do that. Why can't they just turn, like they're not kicking people out for singing it. What difference does it make? That's not a club. Is it a club drum? Does it have the club logo on it? I don't know. I know the guy who does it, but I'm sure, obviously, I'm sure he would have to have permission from the club to get it in there. For sure. So I guess that they could say that if you do this. When they brought it back, because obviously most people listen to this and will remember that in the corner of the shelf in the old stadium, we had a drum.

29:57We had a drummer. And it had been there for years and years and years. And if I remember rightly, the club worked out that you hadn't had to pay for a season ticket for like seven years and just walked in with a drum every time. And that's part of the reason why they got rid of it, which is on brand for Daniel Levy rather than looking at the impact that it had on the atmosphere. Just get rid of him because he hasn't bought a season ticket. What difference does that to any of us? What difference does that, losing these 600 quid a season, make to any of us going to the football? It had a massive effect on the atmosphere, but it's a lack of foresight or understanding I think that existed, certainly in terms of relationship with fans and what we want from going to a game Daniel Levy never had his finger on the pulse for that.

30:41But when the trust sort of explained or managed to convince the club to allow the drum back in, it was in the proviso that we didn't start the Yid chants with the drum. I'm like, what does it matter? Whether someone's singing or you're hitting the drum, what has it got to do with a club? No one's stopping anybody from singing Yid Army every game. It's not happening. So why do they have to make it difficult? well previously if they had to make it difficult with the drum what difference does it make don't just turn a blind eye

31:16game's gone game's gone game's gone Lucky Lavender says can you imagine we signed Tap Sober instead of Van Der Ven at the time I was gutted we went for Van Der Ven over him now I worship Van Der Ven as if he's the second coming of Christ are there any other players out there you were desperate to sign in certain windows but now you couldn't give an ounce of thought to Jonathan David comes to mind every year Gift Orban oh god yeah what'd you say to it? Jorah Matinho yeah I think he would have been a great signing I was fuming when that happened it was by then we signed Clint Dempsey instead I was fucking fuming we got Dembele in the same window and maybe if Matinho had stayed maybe we wouldn't have signed Juan Yama because it'd be Dembele it'd be interesting Masaccio we signed Fazio instead that was a bit of a random one yeah I really wanted Morgan Schneidle in oh god yeah I remember him yeah Southampton it was when Poch came and it was like we were linked with him and that's right Jay Rodriguez yeah and then the following year I really really wanted us to sign Berrajino as well and we signed Son instead yeah that's insane that's probably the best example I think that's out there to be fair I think we still try to sign Berrajino We went for Berahino, then it all went a bit quiet, then we signed Son.

32:38I feel like it was, even up until deadline day, we were still sort of trying to dip our toe in, but the rest is history. I thought, the rumour around him was he just got, he got addicted to Eckies. Like, of all the things that you can get addicted to, pills is one of the weird ones. Like, if you've got a coke addiction and alcohol addiction, weed addiction, you get it. Just boshing loads of pills all the time, getting off your tits on fucking MDMA. This seems like such a strange thing for a professional footballer to get addicted to. I don't know if that's true at all. That's what being at West Brom does to you, mate.

33:11Yeah, indeed.