S15E45 - Frankly, This Is Grim

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1:50he's still here yeah i'm afraid so mate still here so what's he doing here still I have no idea he must have he must have Scarsports using his gaff and seeing all the seeing all the yellow announcements of all these people getting sacked

2:07Harry Hotspur:everyone's having a great time today apart from us like Man United fans like yes I'm not sure they are some of them are saying if Jason Wilcox is the power broker at Manchester United then perhaps they'll have a big problem and then there's also you've got Amorin, who's gone. And who's the other one? Celtic. Oh, right. And Chelsea. It's barely football, is it? And Mareska, yeah, of course. John Boyd, it's been a while since you've been on the pod. I've been away for ages. I know, you've had like eight weeks of holiday. It's mental. Yeah, well, I turned 40, didn't I? So I'm now officially a 40-year-old man.

2:46And then the missus surprised me with a lovely holiday. And then it was Christmas. And then it was New Year's.

2:51Harry Hotspur:I've always wondered, like, if someone surprised me of a week's holiday, I'd be fucked. Like, I can't take a week off work. I can't. Who would record the podcast? That's a good point. That's a good point. We can't leave Cal in charge because it would just be all hell-breaking. You'd get back and it'd be like, oh, we're being sued. Everything's been shut down. Everything's locked off. So nothing's happening anymore. T, you do me a favor and just turn the sensitivity down on your mic slightly. It's just you're super loud and everyone else is. I've got to turn it down. I can't. You'll have to work that out.

3:26Harry Hotspur:I can't do that mid-podcast. That would be mental. Go to the settings of your computer and then just look for input volume. It's why people love the fighting cock, isn't it? Yeah, it's better. John Boy, can I just apologise? If you hear coughing and spluttering, I've come down for something. I think everybody has had it at some stage and I feel awful. So if you hear that, I apologise. It's one episode only, God willing. um so but John like I haven't spoke to you about Tottenham or Thomas Frank for ages really like mildly in the WhatsApp group but not really I want to know where you're at well it's been interesting mate because like I said I've I've had a you know a physical holiday but in some ways because I was kind of quite remote for most of my time away from the pod I also was kind of away from watching a lot of games so I've I've sort of caught up with a few bits I've missed some entire 90 minutes so the real first sort of 90 minutes I could sit down and properly watch since probably well before the Liverpool game was this Sunderland game so I haven't haven't been a sort of emotionally scarred by watching the results but I won't I won't lie and say that I've sort of been desperate to watch those games and actually when I saw the results coming in and them not being particularly great and then seeing the fallout on you know social media and in our whatsapp group and stuff i wasn't massively disappointed that i'd missed those games and it has left me in this this kind of weird uh mind state where i went into the sundland game going okay we haven't been performing very well but with a certain level of like expectation of like we need to start seeing better performances and the results will come.

5:17So when this first half, when we got to halftime of the Sunderland game and everyone was like, that was quality. What a great half. I was like, are you fucking winding me up? Mate, I was confused.

5:28Harry Hotspur:I honestly thought I was being trolled. Yeah, I thought I was being trolled. I thought you was trolling because it was like, you were going, this is awful. And I'm like, no, this is good. Like compared to, compared to what we've been used to, this, that was like the first half was actually a genuinely good display. There was nothing really wrong with it unless, you know, you really look at some of the quality. The desire and press was there, but it hasn't been previously. But this is, I think, mate, in lies the sort of broader issue, right? Is that because I haven't been sort of witnessing what I can only imagine has been really, really bad performances, that when people are seeing that first half performance, it sort of set a different type of standard.

6:09In other words, people are looking at it and going, oh, this is actually good. brackets in comparison to the absolute shite we've been watching for the last three or four games whereas having had a gap i've kind of just watched this as a fresh and going sure it's it's better than i know we've we've had worse performances this isn't good though in the in the realms of good right it might be good in comparison to what we've seen but what we've seen has been awful so i was just a bit kind of shocked as to maybe this is a classic case of yeah we're sort of being gaslit into thinking that that was a decent performance when in hindsight I just really don't think that it was it's just better than some of the absolute garbage we've been served up so I'm as you know even when I'm slagging us off I'm always trying to look at things in a positive light and I am really struggling with the Frank situation because the football is just so appalling and so I think what people are saying is that was a decent performance were things like we pressed really well like that's the absolute minimum for me um running around is like the minimum so I wasn't enthralled by that performance and the second half just seemed to default to the terribleness that we've been seeing so

7:25Harry Hotspur:just in the interest of just finding some positives um T what did you um surely there I mean I I was quite encouraged by the first half performance I was like this is a bit more like it. The quality, again, wasn't there. We've got a big problem with the quality of our team. I was thinking a lot about the Pochettino side when we were really good and just how they would have just destroyed. They would have taken every single time we won the ball back, it would have been a goal-scoring opportunity in that side. Whereas even winning the ball back up in the sort of final third still seemed like this is not going to go in the net.

8:04I mean, the first half was really good. It did feel like, well, not good in comparison to good for Frank, not good generally. But it looked positive. I kind of felt that the second goal was going to come. And then halftime came. And in the start of the second half, they had the cones out. This is Callum's normal kind of prediction of doom. When the coach gets the cones out and the players are running in between them at halftime. And I just don't think we had an answer for them in the second half. But the first half, there were positives. oddly when Kudis came off the performance improved a bit I love Kudis but I felt like he was running through a lot of dead ends but I don't know I think Thomas Frank is probably one of the most unpopular unpopular popular managers I've ever seen because his face doesn't bring about hatred for our fans but the football does and I don't think I know a single Spurs fan that thinks well at this point in time give it a bit more time I think everyone just wants him out but then there's the practicalities of what happens to the rest of the season do we have a caretaker until I don't know, potter turns in the summer I don't know because before these three games I thought seven points out of nine was gettable and we were on course for that until the Brodby equaliser and I thought well seven points from nine is something to build from five from nine changes the complexion an awful lot but is that what

9:32Harry Hotspur:do you deserve though isn't it we didn't deserve nine points no did we like if you look have you seen that graph that Sky Sports put up progressive passes by midfielders against Palace Tottenham's entire midfield four passes forward Adam Watt and ten against Brentford Tottenham's entire midfield seven Jordan Henderson ten not necessarily known as the most sort of advanced forward thinking midfielder and is about 48. And the Tottenham midfield, five. Granit Xhaka, seven. There's the problem. Therein lies the problem. We're just not moving the ball forward fast enough. And you're right. I don't think a manager has been this unpopular at Spurs for a long time.

10:18Harry Hotspur:Like there was division in whether or not you think we were Conte in, Conte out back then, wasn't there? And Mourinho had a similar sort of conversation for a long, long time. It feels like Nuno, but even Nuno was less offensive than... Not offensive. What's the word? The people were less offended by Nuno Ball than they are Frank Ball. Yeah, I just don't see... There's just a lack of green shoots. No one's like saying, let's just see how much longer this will take. I mean, you will take the first half and think, okay, this is maybe what we can do. And those three games, ironically, were the games that Xavi Siemens was suspended for.

10:55So he's back on Wednesday. so there's a small chance that number might increase somewhat because he was finding a bit of form before they're sending off because he had a good game against Brentford and I didn't see the 3-0 against Nottingham Forest I presume he had a stinker in that game but the little green shoots in Xavi Simons' form perhaps in three or four different ways but maybe on Wednesday we will see more progressive passes with him in the side glass half full

11:23Harry Hotspur:I think he has a role to play in that I was very annoyed with him when he got sent off. I don't know if you saw that one, John, but he basically scraped the back heel of Van Dijk, which in my opinion was a red card, and I had no issues with a red card, but you lose your only creative outlet, effectively, because of that sort of petulance. It was a frustrated scrape, and you lose your creative outlet, and we were starting to flow a little bit beforehand, and maybe his return will see Thomas Frank, be able to put together a bit more of an attacking performance. The line-up though, I didn't mind.

12:01Harry Hotspur:I was quite encouraged by Odebe, Tell and Kudus and then Mouane. I thought this was the right thing and it played out. Yeah, I've been saying for a while, the more you can get technical players on the pitch with what we have available, the better. So actually seeing the likes of Tell, Odebe and then obviously Mouane coming in fairly quickly after the injury and to Kudus. it's kind of a good well I felt like it was going to be a positive thing I think the issue though lies where you mentioned it is with the midfield still and I think that's really apparent now there's a big problem in terms of not just personnel but also the way we play because I think there's been a lot made or like a little bit overblown around this idea that essentially certain midfielders cannot pass forward like they're not capable of playing a ball forward.

12:46Of course they are. Yeah, of course they are, right? There's been way more limited players in the history of football who have been able to pass forward than the likes of Benton Kura and Perlina, for example. So it does come down to a system thing for me. And it just really feels like, and look, if I am to take some of the positives out of the pressing from the first half, we got into a position where the ball broke to us in some quite promising positions. The frustrating bit was we just looked like we had no idea what to do with that. and I know when we had Mourinho it was very much like when we break Sonny, Kane just do whatever you want because you two are good enough to make it happen unless you have a Sonny and a Kane or both you have to have some kind of structure in order to get the most out of those and I think those players tell Odebeer etc Xavi when he comes back they will be able to create stuff in the final third if you've got a plan if you've got a way to make them play and so I do feel like there is an opportunity that somebody, and hopefully it's Frank and he does it quickly, can find a way to get more out of the players that we've got.

13:50Because currently, I just feel like we're underperforming even with the players that we have that I think are ultimately upgradable. So, yeah, it's been a bit frustrating, but I would like him to continue to start playing those more technical players just more often and be a bit more consistent with that. I think that's a better choice now.

14:08Harry Hotspur:Well, yeah, exactly, especially with injuries. You put another centre midfielder in that tent. And to be fair, when he's had them available to him, he's played Jaby Simmons. I genuinely don't think he wanted to play Oda Bear in a 10 yesterday. I don't think he wanted to do that. I think he would have been much more comfortable with Bear Vow or if Sar was available or Gray in that 10 just to be much more solid. But I think he's sort of bowing now to the pressure in that we need to see performances because he is going to lose his job. Or you think he's going to lose his job. actually it was quite interesting because a lot of people were going Levy in if Levy was still here he would have sacked him and you're like mate you can't you say what you want but don't you sound like an idiot because the whole nation was against Daniel Levy now you can't go well we don't want Daniel Levy and now someone who's potentially operating differently from Daniel Levy is the problem it's curious about how much some people are starting to give Vino Venkatesham some stick and I'm like, he's turning a battleship around.

15:17Harry Hotspur:It's not. One transfer window, you can argue on paper, it's a very good one. And nothing's going to change if you start chopping out your CEO just because we've had a few bad results of which he's not responsible for. Thomas Frank and the players definitely are. So, I don't know. Just one other thought on the Thomas Frank situation. just a broader point I guess for me I think like T said he's not hated for like when Conte or Jose started turning on the club and they really started getting people's fire going and people just really hated them as people I think people generally speaking respect Frank at least on a base level and they don't think he's a horrible person I think the issue that we've got is that he's, I think in order to be a successful Spurs manager, you need to either get it from just like a personal point of view.

16:13As a man, you need to understand what it means to be like the Spurs manager. And I think like Ange for all of his faults, I think he kind of got that. He made a few mistakes along the way. The cup in your ear at Chelsea and not understanding why we'd want, you know, City to win, to stop Arsenal. But aside from that, I think he got it and he always defended the club. But he wasn't necessarily the right manager in terms of ultimately his football fell apart on the pitch and that's why it didn't work. And if you think about the most successful manager of pots he kind of got both right he was he saw himself as an ambassador for the club a statesman for the club and his football was attacking and high pressing and worked on the pitch i think frank's issue is that his football isn't the traditional sort of style of football that's favored by spurs fans and he isn't really embracing the sort of club's off-pitch persona either so he's kind of getting into this point where people don't really like him as the man and also don't really like him as the manager and that's not like because he's a figure of hate or he's doing anything like really outrageous I just don't think he's like embracing that properly you know the way he always sort of every game oh they're a really good team we're playing against today they're really great and this was a good result even though like we would want to smash everyone at home it's always like oh that was a good result to get a point at home to some shit team like Sunderland it's pretty frustrating when he doesn't seem to grasp those two things and so it's those elements I think are fairly easy to rectify.

17:36Like if he just was to think, take a step back and think about that, that might help him in the short term. And so that's maybe another reason why he is trying to, like you said, he's trying to play those more attacking players more frequently to try and turn that side of it, you know? I think when the manager abandons their philosophy, it's normally the beginning of the end. Most like with Ange and the Europa League run, we're just kind of stinking the place out and getting wins and um you know a lot's been said about addressing them picking the team and picking the formations and um if thomas frank tries to do some swashbuckling football and it doesn't work and he's got nothing left anyway yeah so um i don't know it's between a rock and a hard place really um if you're gonna be dull and win it's fine but it's a bit like um you know heels in boxing and wrestling whereby if you're boring and you hate it and you're winning it's fine but When you stop winning, then you've got nothing left.

18:29It's not like, at least Ange had a little bit of goodwill from the opening 10 games where, how many games now? 19 or so games into Thomas Frank's league reign and we're still not seeing any green shoots. We could talk about Madison and Kuliszewski being unavailable, but we bought, I mean, this isn't entirely Frank's fault, but we bought Zavi Semyon into some sort of superstar who's going to come in and hit the ground running. some of that is Xavi's fault and some of that is Frank's fault in terms of how he's played him out wide didn't work Brouillard is a number 10 again he wasn't he wasn't passing the ball forward lots of backward passes is that by design of the formation you know we're just not we're just not really sure

19:15Harry Hotspur:I think I think the evidence I know we'll never know but the evidence suggests it is we like you you wouldn't say Sunderland had better players than us, right? Most people wouldn't take hardly anyone from that Sunderland side on paper. Maybe if people really understand what Sunderland are, they would. Six of their players were at AFCON. And Sadiqe in midfield, who's had an incredible start to the season, literally just covers every bit of ground, wins the ball back, just a nightmare in midfield. Even without him, they dominated that midfield in the second half. Second half. First half, I thought we had them all on, Adam on toast largely and a bit more quality.

19:54Harry Hotspur:We'd have gone in two or three maybe, but the reality is that we couldn't sustain it. And I think the energy that went into that press in the first half started to wane at 60 minutes. It felt like we were more or less spent. I don't know if that's true. It's just what I looked at and that was the summation of the situation. And then we were happy to kind of sit in against Sunderland. They've scored four goals away from home all season. four goals and you're sitting in against them it just I don't know it's just not I don't I'd sometimes say I'd rather lose try and have a go but then I'm looking at a season last year where we consistently lost try and have a go so 22 I don't want that kind of there needs to be some cohesion to having a go it can't just be just yeah there needs to be something why can't we just have a fucking apologies for stopping the podcast I just need to bring you this message from our good friends at NordVPN.

20:54Harry Hotspur:Go to nordvpn.com forward slash the fighting cock. The link is in the description below. If you click on it, you can get four extra months free on a two-year plan, and there's no risk with NordVPN's 30-day money-back guarantee. If you download this app and you pay for it and you don't think it's worth your money, then you can get it back within 30 days, so there's no risk. But I doubt that that will ever happen. And the things you can do with this is, you know, they're pretty amazing. So we're watching sporting events, TV shows and films which aren't available in your region, switching to your virtual location to a country which is showing the event, 3 o 'clock kickoffs for example.

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23:12Harry Hotspur:This episode is brought to you by White Claw Surge. Great podcast pick, friend. No surprises there. After all, you're all about finding the tastiest flavors out there, just like White Claw Surge. And with big, bold flavors to enjoy, like blood orange, blackberry, cranberry, and more, it's time to go all in on taste. Unleash the flavor. Unleash White Claw Surge. Please drink responsibly. Hard seltzer with flavors. 8 % alcohol by volume. White Claw Seltzer Works. Chicago, Illinois. isn't this like, again, trying to find some sort of silver lining there? Do we just need to reset our expectations then and just go, okay, look, this isn't going to be good football.

23:47Like we just have, it's just not going to happen. But we are at least picking up results, right? Like we are just scraping through, getting points here and there. Maybe we're not going to finish top six like we wanted. Maybe that's just not a realistic possibility. But maybe we just have to go, okay, let's just see Frank as a caretaking manager. Let's just see him as get to the end of the season. it's going to be dog shit. Now I know nobody wants to hear right off a season at this point and I don't want to do that either but I can't really see him suddenly just like Hasn't it been written off?

24:19Well yeah that's what I mean so do we need to just get to a point where we go okay fine let's just there is no obvious caretaker I think a lot of people are calling for Potch in the summer or someone else so why don't we just see it as like look this is going to be shit let's not rather than just be frustrated every week and almost be like surprised that it's rubbish which is what I keep I keep going oh this is rubbish and what am I expecting I already know it's going to be rubbish why don't we just like deal with that and just see it as it is what it is and try try to kind of and I look at it in a slightly different light which is we need we need to basically put pressure on the leadership of the club to start really changing because you know what this is doing this whole situation with Frank and the players is yet again Enoch or rebranded as the Lewis family are not ripping up trees, right?

25:09We were told there's this 100 million war chest. We were told they want to spend money. They want to be a serious club. They want to come and do this. I haven't heard anyone. I know it's only whatever it is, five days in. But it's five days in. We've had all this money. We've had this 100 million war chest before the season started. Why aren't we just throwing our big dicks around? Why aren't the Lewis family going big on transfers and getting things done? I've hardly heard any rumours except for some 19-year-old left back from Brazil. I wonder if this is a classic case of like, yet again, we've been sold this dream.

25:44And because there's a big distraction on the pitch, that they're getting away with this scot-free a little bit. And actually, there should be some focus on them as well.

25:52Harry Hotspur:Isn't the situation more complicated knowing that Frank probably won't see the job? What do you do? Like, it's a Frank, who do you want? It doesn't matter really what he wants because he's not going to be there. Does it not? What do we do? just spend 100 million because we need it to be spent or do you just buy I don't I want to say just buy quality players any manager would love but that is that is true though right like why does that have to be controversial right like I don't think it's controversial I just don't think that exists really anymore but why because like we need a left back just get a good left back why is that any manager goes well probably need a left back don't they like at some point they're going to need a left back so what why is that difficult to make a sign in I don't know.

26:34Harry Hotspur:I'm just sort of playing devil's advocate for why nothing's happened. But then where has anything happened for anybody else? I know, but this is the point. Everyone else isn't doing absolutely shit in comparison to their expectation and isn't paying the most for a season ticket. We are. And this is why I think people get pissed off, right? Because it's like these other clubs will make decisions and do things at some point in this window. Fine, but they can be a bit more selective, let's say. we were told it's okay we're going to correct things we understand like we want to challenge for things why aren't we being aggressive in the market and look maybe next week we'll sign four players and i'll shut my mouth but i just feel like this comes down to your point flab the reason that we're in this limbo with with frank is that modern football has told us that you're supposed to have a director of football and the director of football creates the footballing identity so no matter who you have as manager you sign players based on what your footballing identity is what is tottenham hotspurs footballing identity under langer and under pratagy what is it is it a back three is it counter-attacking football is it high press is it possession nobody seems to know we have two of them one of them is probably going to leave now and one of them who looks like to me a youth recruiter vinay doesn't seem to like be as like hands-on as levy which we all didn't like but at least he was like actively involved in doing stuff i'm just unsure if there's someone at the top going, right, this is what Tottenham Hotspur Football Club are trying to do from a footballing perspective.

28:04We're going to hire a director of football to implement that. It's attacking football is the board level is we want someone who plays attacking attractive football that wins. That's rule one. You find a director of football who does that in a more technical way. And then they recruit players that fit that. And then you go and find a manager who can manage that way. All of it just seems disjointed, which is why we've got Frank as the manager and then we don't seem to know what we're doing and there's no obvious sign-ins because we don't really know what we're trying to do.

28:34Harry Hotspur:One of the alarming things actually was and I've mentioned this a few times but the interview that Dan Pilbatch had done with Viyak Langer in the Standard and which was you know pretty seismic because he often stays out of the limelight and just wants to do his job and he was talking about the philosophy at the football club which drives recruitment and drives mentality and the direction you want to move in. And he said that Postacoglu is just a part of that and it isn't defined by his footballing philosophy. And the next manager will have a similar outlook, something along those lines. And then the next manager was Thomas Frank.