S15E47 - A War Chest, a Window, And No Coherence

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0:30he's got to go he's got to go today hasn't he he's got to go today surely he's got to go today and at the end of the day he went I'd have thought he'd have gone today and everyday he hasn't sent it in today yet so maybe he's given up on him going maybe I kind of partly think they think I think like he would have gone if they wanted him to or if in any way they thought that this wasn't their plan. And actually they have a plan to keep him in and just see what happens.

1:08I'm not sure. Do you think that second half performance, Ricky, saved him?

1:16Say performance as well, by the way. I'm talking about 10 minutes ago. Oh, man. I don't know whether to say, I don't know if it would have saved him. It definitely would. I mean, it helped. It definitely helped for him to be able to say, look, right, I know that first half was, just ignore the first half, but the second half, like, didn't we fight back? Like, we had a go. We scored from open play. Like, I can do it. I can do it. Just let me. Just let, I'll tell you what, right, wait until Solanke, Kulisevsky, Madison's back. We've got a new, you know, brought in new players. Just let me have a fair crack at the whip.

1:55and they're like, we don't really know who else to bring in. Fabio is off at the end of the month. I don't really know what to do. Let's just play it out. We're out of two cups now anyway, so let's just let it roll. So I don't know. I mean, the second half performance was encouraging, but we should never have been in that position in the first place. And was it against Sunderland? Like the first half performance that we, you know, we were a lot better, more attacking. The second half was absolutely dire. Do you reckon he walked into the thing and went, please don't make rid of that? Yeah. Honestly, I think they have those types of meetings where he is just like glassy eyed, ready to tear up.

2:50And he is just like, just pleading his case every single time. please don't please don't please don't please don't I'll try twice as hard please don't the wheels are in motion well stop them the wheels are in motion stop them sorry Thomas the wheels are in motion um what about you John Boyd like what I don't know man what am I asking you do you think you should be sacked are you one of the I don't know what we're gonna find out what his approval rating is shortly but so I just to go back on this like did this performance save him I think basically this whole situation is a little bit like when you were younger, did you ever go to like betting shops with your mates and like put on an accumulator before a Saturday or put on a bet on a game?

3:33Still do it. And some of the, yeah, well, this is it, right? So some of us never change anything. So you go down there, right? And you put a bet on and you think, oh, look, there's like 40 to one on this centre back who's never scored to score, right? And then they score in that game, right? Great story for all the lads. Everyone's buzzing, brilliant. and then for whatever reason sentimentality or some false sense of logic that same bloke still bets on that defender every week to score all right and it never happens ever again that's what i think has happened with vinay and arteta right he's gone well all we did was give him time and it's worked out so it doesn't matter what thomas frank does if we just let him get on with it eventually it'll work and i think that is my biggest worry is that i don't think it matters what Thomas Frank does, Vinay is just like, nah, you just got to give them time.

4:25That's how it works in the game. It's easy. I've done it. Look, look at Artère. Worked perfectly. So that's what worries me the most is there doesn't seem to be anything that rattles them. You don't hear any murmurings of, well, if they go out of this cup, maybe that's a problem. If they drop down to this place, maybe that's a problem. There's nothing. So that's what worries me the most. He currently has, in terms of average points per game, he is the lowest behind everyone. Behind Wanda Ramos, Martin Yol, Nuno, obviously, Ange Vostegoglu. Can you tell me of our last 10 managers who had the best points per game average?

5:05Probably. Hang on. The options are Yol, Ramos, Redknapp, Villas-Boas, Pochettino, Mourinho, Conte, Nuno, Ange, and obviously Frank. Oh, I thought this was going to be a Tim Sherwood. Yeah, same here. Same. Yeah. It isn't Tim Sherwood. I guess these are, it doesn't include interim managers, full managers. Yeah, or permanent for a certain amount of time. Ryan Mason isn't in there either, is he? Then probably Conte. I'm going to go Redknapp. So it isn't Conte. Conte was a better answer than Redknapp on 1.78. So, you know, apologise, Rick. Never. Okay. uh then so the answer is villas boas 1.9 how good i thought i remember stinking what he stunk back then yeah that's an average 0.6 points more than frank and he was bombed out um yeah i guess that there is this there is this idea that you know there is no option there's no real interim conversation like you know i was having a conversation with someone earlier and and why don't we sack Frank and move to get Karik in as our interim if he isn't going to Manchester United?

6:21If he does, then so be it. But just whatever it is, let's not watch more Frank Ball. In that last... There have been moments in recent weeks where we've had spells of it looking better. But is the bar or our expectations so low that we hold on to these moments. Like bare minimum, you should be having spells like that. That shouldn't be the expectation. But there'll be some people who say, well, no, this is a clue to what might be possible under Frank. Is there anything in that? There was parts of the first half against Sunderland was absolutely fine. Second half against Villa was all right. You know, by no means perfect, but we did have spells.

7:15It felt like the second half against Villa, it felt like because we were 2-0 down, it was quite noisy in the stadium with the 9 ,000 Villa fans. But it felt like our performance in the second half when we got at them was more down to the players rather than kind of a rollicking from Frank or tactical change or anything like that. It was like Paulina and Xavi both kind of grabbing the ball by the horns and just giving it a go rather than Frank changing anything really. And that's what worries me is that the performances where we have been better is that it feels like the players have just taken it upon themselves to change things, to have more shots outside the box or to do things a bit different to what they're being told.

8:25So, sorry, I can't even remember what the question was anymore. I don't think they asked the question. I just finished talking. John, you've got a podcast. Sorry, you're on a podcast. Yes. We need another Spurs podcast, obviously. Yeah, I had enough of you lots. I thought, I'd just rather be on my own at this point. Yeah, I know the world doesn't need another Spurs podcast. And obviously, it's the perfect time because we're playing so well and things are on the up. Everyone's like, yes, give me some more of a bloke, middle-aged man moaning about his football club. That would be great. That would really cheer me up.

8:55But if you are some sort of nihilist and you do enjoy some sort of, like I said, middle-aged bloke moaning about Spurs, then come and join me. It's a big John Bass show. I'll try and do it. Releases will be on Wednesdays every week. So that it's sort of in the gap, in the bulge, as it were, where sometimes as a sort of listener of podcasts, I find myself like all of the weekend stuff gets rounded up. I listen to everything by like end of Tuesday and then Wednesday, everyone's recording. So I'm going to release mine on a Wednesday. Nice. That's mine. Nice. Good. So yeah, feel free to come along.

9:29It'll just be like a little bit more like longer chance for me to just get my points across basically without Flav and Ricky fucking interrupting me all the time. so yeah just come along if you want if you don't don't bother it's fine how do i find it john uh it's the big john basho rick i'm glad you uh you've asked you can find it on all major podcast feeds spotify apple it's even on youtube um so you can you know see what my room looks like i'll record it if you want to i mean there's nothing special in there but you can have a look um see if you know what i look like as well if you want to i just want to see a beautiful face yeah some people do rick some people do so now they can on a weekly basis which is nice so you can get it everywhere and then if you're not already following me uh at the real john bass on social i'm also doing tiktoks now like a right twat 40s too old isn't it to start a tiktok i realized this because big ben bowman our big ben bowman i was asking him for advice right like a proper noob going oh what should i do how should i you know when do i post what do i say how do i do it Ben, tell me, teach me.

10:32Right. And then, then this week it was his birthday and I found out he's 28. So I've been like grooming him basically. It's metal. I don't mean you can groom someone that big though. It's true. It's true. It levels it off somewhat. You can say it anyway. So yeah, it's been, it's been an interesting start to the year for, for me doing this kind of stuff. But yeah, if you want to come along for the journey, be very welcome. I am. Yes. Yeah. Good luck with that Ben. And sorry, John.

11:03and yes I'm looking forward to my invite you too be on for sure I don't talk about Spurs enough well this is what I mean I was like doing the first episode this week and I was like oh yeah I'll ask the boys to come on I was like no it's the last thing they need I'll just suffer on my own and then when the time's right hopefully when Frank goes we'll be a bit more cheerful then we can get people on so once a month I'll have a guest on so you always will be on plenty nice one mate nice one what was it called again? The Big John Bass Show I was running through different titles. Bass of the Net was up there.

11:34Nice. There was a couple of others which I can't actually say because they were quite rude puns. Nance-related stuff. So, yeah, I just went route one with Big John Bass because I thought, you know, just keep it easy in it and people know what's about. Yeah, man. Good stuff, good stuff. Who do you think is actually to blame me, right? I mean, everybody's to blame me pretty much, but Thomas Frank is definitely culpable, obviously, because of the style of football we play, regardless of any other issues. You cannot be as blunt as Spurs have been in recent times and not blame the manager. But then you look at what's happening behind the scenes and the work that needs to be done.

12:13I was having a conversation earlier and we are miles away from where we need to be, off the pitch, on the pitch for sure. The structure behind it, and it's been a sort of long-winded winded and well-made point over the last few weeks about what's happening behind the scenes and how long it will take to to um sort out but there's this idea now that an archaic way actually of looking at a football club is to say he's the manager he makes the decisions it's all on him i.e amuriam and ten haag and thomas frank and and and specifically there was a a good point made on another podcast, Libero podcast, full of very intellectual men who I can't compete with.

13:01But they were talking about the way Amerim was spoken about as manager, that he would be given free transfer windows. And they say, in actual fact, he hasn't got any transfer windows. He doesn't have any say on the players coming in. The idea that this manager has these, and it's the same as Spurs, has these sort of tentacles into every aspect of the football club and he's making decisions. It's just nonsense. His job as a head coach is to prepare the team for each match, improve the standard of the players

13:38and perhaps have a say on recruitment or at least explain where the deficiencies are in the squad. But really in this modern era, which is why Spurs are in such a mess, if this is true, is that we don't have a director of football. We've got Pratichu's fucking on his way out, which is an absolute joke in this situation, that we can appoint him, and then three months later, he's off to Fiorentina because they're offering him a role where he has complete license over the decision-making rather than the kind of humiliating aspect of, not that he finds it humiliating because he wouldn't have taken the job, I'd imagine, or to share the role with Langer as sporting director.

14:18Or maybe he would because he just thought his name was mud and he was never going to get another job. the fact that we supported him over the last three years 30 years 30 months or whatever it's been and then he just sort of jumps at the first opportunity is another issue but we don't have a director of football and the director of football is the guy that is the power broker he's the decision maker he's the one that can deliver success holistically what what is division of a football club how do we want to play what style of what approach do we want generally what players fit this model are we going to have wingbacks is it going to be a back three what kind of manager works with that that's where football is that mostly you have a director of football in there that is effectively the most influential person in your football club but as fans and moreover the media we're still obsessed with this manager model that doesn't exist pretty much it does to some degree at Arsenal because Arteta got to a position where his influence was so significant and that he demanded and received a greater power.

15:18But generally, it's just not the case. It's not the case in many clubs in the modern era. And the problem is Spurs don't even have a director of football. We haven't got one to shape culture. We're not going to give it to Thomas Frank to be a manager. He's not that. He's a head coach. He's supposed to be doing something. But we haven't got anybody in that role. And as we move forward, these people need to be held accountable for the failings of the football club and be applauded for successes as well. But at the moment, we're obsessed with the manager. I'm not saying in any way, excuse the way we've played under Thomas Frank.

15:56I'm not. I'm categorically saying he isn't the right manager and should be gone. But there are wider issues at Tottenham that we're seeing right now that have really nothing to do with Frank that he can't influence. And it's up to Venkatesham to figure out how to fix this and find the director of football. If it isn't Lange, then who is it? And then give them the license if they are experts in their field and they shouldn't even be considered if they're not, to mould the football club in the right way. The way Lange was talking when he was at, he did the interview, I mention this all the time, but it's important.

16:33He did the interview with Dan Kilpatrick in The Standard and he talked about an overall vision for the football club and the type of manager that we need to bring in. we're going to be attacking we're going to be aggressive uh on the pitch and postocoglu is part of that but isn't the be all and end all and we're going to bring in managers um that are going to fit that model and the next the next appointment is thomas frankie is the opposite the absolute opposite so what is happening you can look at the stuff with uh daniel levy you can say that he's left it's massive it's going to take time to turn it around Venkatesham's been there six months or thereabouts so that's fine it's going to take him time to get all of this right but there needs to be a move towards this if this is what we're doing if we're not having managers and we're going to have this structure that goes from CEO or chairman CEO sporting director director of football to manager or head coach then that needs to be in place properly and it isn't and I think what we're seeing is that you might get lucky with players you might get lucky with the next manager coming in but they need the structure as it stands behind the scenes that Spurs isn't at all correct.

17:40What do you think of any of that, John? Yeah, so I do agree just really quickly on the Frank point. I do agree that basically, and it's not just the Thomas Frank thing, like managers in general take way too much heat nowadays for the amount of control that they have over the wider footballing situation. Like you've just kind of summed up really, which is you have a director of football and then you have, sometimes there's like a football operations person. there's like scouting departments there's all these people setting the agenda and deciding which players get signed the manager has really little control over but yet they're the one that's always in the press getting asked about those topics you very rarely see like the director of football characters like every week being asked to answer for their issues is always the manager so i do have some sympathy for the way the game's changed because it used to be like an owner or a chief executive and a manager that was it and then between the two of them he'd be like these are the players i want to sign and they'd sign them and that would be it and the manager would be the one driving the philosophy i think the issue that we've got is it actually goes deeper than that right like it's the ownership of the club the very top so even now i'll bundle them all in together let's just say enix so the levy era and now there's been such a focus on everything that's not football that i don't think they understand what the type of football club they want us to be like I don't think they understand what is the, I know it's a wanky term, but like what is the Tottenham DNA?

19:03What are we trying to replicate as a club going forward for the next 10 years? And I mentioned this on another pod about the way that England a few years ago, the FA, one of the good things that they have actually ever done was do this England DNA thing where they went, right, from grass football and all of the youth age groups, we're going to play a very specific brand of possession-based football and everyone's going to get coached that way and we're going to have it all the way through the men's teams, the women's teams, every single team and we want coaches that play that particular way and England now are producing more technically gifted footballers than we've ever seen there's tons of them because they changed that and they said this is what we want to achieve I think Spurs need a complete overhaul of the process like they basically need to start in the very beginning and sit down with ex-players like fan groups um various different like supporters the trust all that kind of stuff and understand for themselves what is what it means to be Tottenham what that actually means to us as the fan base what type of football when we say oh we want to play the Tottenham way what that actually means right because they just think it's like I'll just finish top four they don't understand like the culture around football and the way that you play and the way that you want to see your club like flourish and develop that needs to be established so that you can then hire a director of football who will do that for you and then that director of football knows right I I can only hire attacking managers who play a back four.

20:25That's it. I can never hire someone who plays a back three because that's not the philosophy of the club. In the same way as Barcelona will always play 4-3-3. They'll never change. And any time a manager's tried to change, they got fired immediately because that's not how they play. That's not the culture of their club. We need something similar. And I'm not saying it needs to be 4-3-3, but we need to decide what is our thing, what is our non-negotiables. And to be fair to an Ange-type character, he was a type of manager who had that right he was like these are my non-negotiables this is the way that i play we need a director of football that has that under instruction from the owners so that you can then have a recruitment team that recruits for that director of football and a manager who plays that philosophy we don't have any of that aligned none of it and i do think that's a major reason why we are in such a mess it isn't just one thing or the other the whole thing, what's the phrase?

21:17The fish rots from the head. The whole thing is just completely unaligned. That can change really quickly, by the way, but it needs to be looked at and they need to really decide what type of football club they want to be from the top. Otherwise, it will never change. Yeah. I don't know how quickly it can change, John, to be honest, but one appointment and then he has to implement in his plans as a director of football. That might be managerial changes, a complete change in scouting structure. I think we might be a while from... I'm not saying things on the pitch might not change quickly. They can.

21:55We were in a complete mess when Pochettino took over. You would argue, actually, that Postacoglu's job was even greater because he had a complete shift in ideology at the club. I think history, actually, will look at that as a much more difficult job than we thought. and you know by no means should we have kept positive postacoglu because of the you know losing all those games and shit but what he did really successfully was turn what was a poisonous place with very little leadership and really took the mantle and went um you know these things are going to change around here and you're going to see it really quickly and we only it's almost like we want what we needed to hear um but the problems didn't necessarily go away just because he came in.

22:42I hope I'm wrong. And you're right, football clubs do change overnight, I guess. But if you look at Sunderland, how they were languishing for decades in the championship in League One, it wasn't until very intelligent and sensible people came in that that football club turned around. and I'm not saying we don't have that at Spurs but it doesn't appear like we're it feels like we're unable to make the right decisions right now and that has to change the fact that Venkat Sessom's here it remains to be seen whether he's going to be any good but the fact that he's here and we have someone running the football club from that perspective and his track record suggests that he will be a success at Spurs like he was at Arsenal, then we've already started that process, hopefully.

23:43Anything to add, Rick? Well, I mean, like Venkatesham, a lot of what you hear and the podcasts you listen to and stuff like that, everyone always speaks really, really highly of him and he's got a lot of credit in the bank and his knowledge and experience. So I'm kind of, I'm hopeful that he can spot things quickly and that he'll be able to change it and put things in place so that we are able to act how we want to kind of act. And I'm also seeing a lot of people that are saying about, to add on to your two points, that we don't want Thomas Frank here because we don't want to give him the transfer budget because he's going to buy his own players.

24:25And then the next manager that comes in is going to be stuck with loads of Thomas's players. But it shouldn't be like that. It should be that we're buying players to kind of fit our philosophy and strategy. And that if Frank does leave, then the next manager that comes in that plays a similar style of football, they can pick up from where he left off and maybe he's lost the dressing room. And so the next manager that comes in, but we're still playing exactly the same way. This attacking brand of football with just some minor adjustments and that the players now have bought into this new manager and how we're trying to play.

24:58so it shouldn't really matter of giving Thomas Frank the money to spend but because we haven't got this director of football and it doesn't feel like we've got this um this philosophy throughout the club established it it does feel like it's just going to be a quick fix to see right Thomas Frank wants these types of players let's go and buy them and then by the end of the season we finish 15 out of all the cups really early and then in the end we ping him and we have to start again and then it's like have we got the new sporting director in to give us to be that kind of leading light they need to be making the decision, you don't hire a manager and then a sporting director you hire the sporting director who then creates an idea or a vision the way to move forward and then hires the right manager.

25:54You don't fucking ask about face if you're hiring a manager and then getting a supporting directory. Doesn't make any sense. It's almost like, don't sack Frank. We've got all that other shit to sort out. Who's going to create this philosophy, an idea, an environment about where Spurs are going to go forward? That should be first and foremost what we're trying to think about here. Because this season is over and done with. It's been over and done with for about fucking two months. so it doesn't matter right now whether or not Thomas Frank is our manager or not that that person is going to lead off it is it Langer right I mean his popularity is very you know it's in tatters at the moment but if it is Langer make him the sporting director and give him the facilities he needs to run the football club if it isn't Langer get rid of him and find the person that is going to be able to deliver that or keep him but just know that he's subservient to whoever this fucking director of football needs to be because otherwise you're pissing in the wind is that right pissing in the dark or pissing in the wind pissing in the dark as well in the windy dark in the trunk piss all over your face you don't know where it's going yeah you're pissing everywhere basically because and you might get lucky you might hit the toilet right you may more likely the piss is going to be all over your feet right and and that's only going to be the case if if we bring in someone who um who can run the football club in a significantly different way than than than we have and we have an opportunity it's a great football club we have in theory lots of money we just don't have the right person now at the moment to deliver that's to deliver on that potential you're very angry and animated then and I felt like you were directing it at me, like you thought I was Vinay for a second.

27:48I was like, whoa, whoa, chill out. We saw a picture of you about 15 years ago and you looked like me and my little brother. Yeah, yeah. When it first went in, I genuinely, and I mean this, Rick, I'm not just saying this to do a bit, I genuinely did think it was a screenshot of Vinay. I was on chat show. And then I was like, hang on, hold on. Yeah. But just quickly going back on this thing, I think this is where the problem that we've got there, and I totally agree with what you just said, Flav, right? It's like, until we get this director of football, that's actually the more important one because they set the agenda for everything.

28:22But I think the reason that we can't or that we haven't or we maybe even shouldn't at this stage is I don't think that the newly branded Lewis family really understand. And this sounds like I'm defending Levy, and I guess I am to a certain extent, but if you think about his time, like the most recent end, he hired uh don fabio right and think about what paratici is kind of known for he's known for like win now managers high name profile players and getting them in right that's what levy was trying to do right that's in his mind he was like we've got all that we've got all these players we got close to winning the champions league i just need a win now like manager and a win now team i've already got a good squad of players i need a win now manager and so therefore i'm going to bring in Paratici as this win now director of football.

29:09I think the problem we've got now is we've got a mixture of like, as long as he's here, Paratici's a win now sporting director. And then we've got Langer, who's like, in my mind, like a youth scout, basically, who looks for youth players and a manager who plays like horrible, like disgusting football. None of those things align because I don't think the Lewis family are clear on what they actually want. And until they decide... How are they qualified to know what they want? Like to make the right decision. Well, this is what I'm saying. They need to hire. Yeah, but there's like, if you think about it, like City, right?

29:42When their owners came in, they had a clear vision of what they wanted to do, right? They were like, okay, this is what I want to do. And then when they met and sat down with a million directors of football, they're like, yes, that's the most aligned with what we want. And then the director of football goes, right, here's how we actually get what you want. And then they hire a manager who brings it to the pitch. The problem that we've got is I don't think they've got a clue about what it means to be Spurs. When we all talk about, now you've got to play like this, this is how Tottenham play, they don't know what that is.

30:10They couldn't articulate that to you. They don't understand it. And this is what I'm saying. Maybe they need to invest a little bit of time and money on bringing in a sort of, take a step back and bring people in who can tell them this is the type of club that Tottenham is and their history and what people are talking about. Here's a fan's perspective. Here's the trust's perspective. We want this type of football. These are the type of players. This is the type of thing that we want as a club. if that's what you want to get success then we're all aligned cool now when you go in an interview in directors of football if they're going well my thing is i just find the most defensive manager ever and then we just grind our way to results you go well he's not the director of football for us right now what's their criteria for the right person i mean they don't really know i don't know i mean it'll be scary if they would if the lewis family were sitting down with a director of football and choosing the right one exactly yeah i mean that'd be like buying a plot of land and then going we're gonna build the house ourselves but you don't have to build a house obviously you don't have to lay a brick you run companies for a living no we're gonna build it ourselves it's like it i think they need to say like they need to it's like abramovich came in right and he just you know this isn't a good example because obviously he cheated for a lot of it and the reasons why he got involved in football are much debated but you empower people that understand and know rather than making decisions that's why Ben Katesham's appointment I think was deliberate obviously was deliberate in a move to remove Daniel Levy so the Lewis family can get in because they can't manoeuvre and make decisions past Daniel Levy given how powerful he was at the football club so it's on Venkatesham to understand these things that you've just all lined out outlined there John and then find the people that you can slot in place beneath him there's been a lot of movement behind the scenes at Spurs people coming in we don't really know what they do or their role is but that's fine because a football club is massive now rather than the smaller one that we've seen 20 years ago when it was a manager and a chairman and that was pretty much it there's so much to running a football club now that um that you need lots of really intelligent people in place in order for it to run and function properly but as fans we're still looking at it like people blame scott munn for our for lack of signings like it's not it wasn't his job it never was his job to do any of that but we just assume they're working in this at that level then they're their result that they're directly involved in a scouting network or something like that um so it's basic this is on venkatesh and he has a lot of work to do to turn this around at least whether you rate him or not we have someone who has a football understanding and a footballing iq and knows how to run a club of our size making decisions that's a positive thing if he can get it right but we have to assume that he can but it feels like that structure needs to be put in place and quickly

33:13um a lot of commotion about the kit honestly it was one of the most beautiful things i've What do you mean commotion about the kit? What, people didn't like it or? No, you can like it or not like it. That's not the point. There was like, there was only 1 ,901 made available. Oh. And obviously they were bought up. They went on sale at 9am and then they sold out within seconds, obviously. And then they were on eBay. Because these wankers with fucking sniper bots come in and just buy things. This is why no one can go and see the bands they want to go and see now. because just these wankers that are sniping tickets.