S15E57 - Frank's Gone

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0:52Sip for yourself. Shop Virtuo Up exclusively at Nespresso.com. kayak gets my flight hotel and rental car right so i can tune out travel advice that's just plain wrong bro sky coin way better than points never fly during a scorpio full moon just tell the manager you'll sue instant room upgrade stop taking bad travel advice start comparing hundreds of sites with kayak and get your trip right kayak got that right it's the fighting it's the fighting cock it's the fighting it's the fighting cock come on hello boys Tottenham Hotspur have sacked Thomas Frank and um obviously we're jumping on the podcast and talk about it what the fuck will we be doing got big ben bowman he's already done a video he's bashed one out already yeah john bass has already done a podcast he's bashed one out already

2:07he's everywhere then um yeah so i mean i guess you'll be highlighting some of the things you said in your in your video ben but i just feel like it was the right thing and when it come through i wasn't surprised however i think john planted this thing in my head and i didn't realize it would live there so significantly until last night right when i was watching newcastle terrace a new one yeah this is a struggling newcastle side right they're booing eddie how at newcastle they want him out some of them and it and it looked like they were they didn't look like they have a problem in the world last night we we they just yeah it was just so easy and we probably won't end up talking much about the game, but we might dip in and out.

2:51But I thought, this is based on what the conversation I had with John, is that maybe John's point that Venkatesham won't sack him because he knows how well that went last time when Arteta was under pressure, that maybe he is that kind. I didn't know because my feeling was that he wasn't going to be sacked. My feeling is that he would just persist and the problem are the injuries, and it's not Thomas Frank. And I felt it was evident last night that the players had stopped. I don't know the right way to say this, because I don't think it's completely accurate. It's a bit clumsy and crude. But everybody knows when I say he's lost a dressing room or they've stopped playing for him, what I mean, right?

3:32Yeah. There was something wrong last night, massively wrong. Yeah, the truth exists somewhere in between they're not having him and they've downed tools. like it's not it's not necessarily I don't think they've downed tools I think it inspires them yeah they're just not having him are they they're not having him it's been evident for ages really I think I guess he's playing all these players will go out and play football because they're professional footballers and they're good at it and it will look like they're but the great managers get that 10 % extra out of the player and he wasn't getting that in fact the messaging that he must have heard over this entire season he was perhaps drawing from them a little bit Yeah, I think so.

4:13When he was talking about how great every other player is, apart from Spurs, that probably takes something from him. And it goes back, John, it goes back, doesn't it? Because there were moments where you saw it, like the walking, Spence and Van der Ven purposely walking past him without shaking his hand. He seemed lacking authority. It just, now that he's been sacked, you can start talking about these things as real. as tangibles yeah i am well obviously i planted the seed with you so i obviously felt the same which is i am i am surprised basically that he has been sacked because i just thought vin i was just completely delusional and was gonna was a bit like you know in titanic when they're on the ship and you've got basically like the captain and then there's the guy who's like from the shipping line and they're like yeah we've hit an iceberg we're taking water and he's like yeah but we can't sink like we're not going to go down like that's what it felt like like they just weren't willing to accept it until it was too late you know that bit where a man sneaks on the boat pretending like even though he's not a woman a child Ben would have done that yeah yeah 100 % Alex from Bristol would have done that Alex from Bristol would 100 % have done that what about the kids fuck them fuck the kids not fuck the kids but fuck them but what I'm saying in that instance though John right is if like you're going to die yeah I don't know this kid.

5:40Get me on that boat. Yeah. But what's happened? What if these kids are twat? Most kids are twats. Yeah. They're probably just doing six, seven. I want to get on the fucking boat. Yeah. Yeah. They're not on the boat because they're doing TikToks at the back of it. TikTok dances. So it's fine. It did feel like we were sinking. And that's the question. The thing is, the same thing with that captain who said that the ship can't sink. It's an unsinkable vessel. that's the way we feel about Spurs this season and then last night the water was really coming on people were starting to drown in panic and freezing cold water was coming up and the worry would be that Venkatesham has realised too late that we are fucked yeah that was my worry that we us, the Fighting Cock and other podcasters are basically the violin just playing through it all despite it all we're here trying to entertain you um yeah i look i i think basically that's been my worry all along is that he wouldn't get sacked and that we would like drift into this so i am pleasantly surprised that we have made this change when we have because it's the first sign that vin i and the owners have any sort of logic or brain because now we have got some days right not both the time in the middle of the season but what is it 11 days ish between now and the North London derby.

7:06That is enough time. If you can get a decent interim in or even just a decent coach in, they can have a game plan at least for that game and try and basically turn the feeling around. Because I agree with what you boys are saying. The players just, they haven't been having him. I think his opening gambit of we will lose games really set the tone. Like that is the most stark difference between, I know you said it before, Flav about, when Ange said, you know, I always win something in my second season, mate. And then cut to Thomas Frank going, I promise you this, I can guarantee you this, we will lose games.

7:44Well, I tell you what, Thomas, you're stuck to your promise, mate, because we lost a shitload of them and now we're in a really bad position. Just on that note, I don't know if you've seen the Pochettino high performance pod, but there was one bit where he was talking like, what's your dream? What's your dream in football? And he was like, I'm winning the Premier League and the Champions League, but the Premier League. And then he asked him a question about whether or not he thinks he can actually do it. And he looked at him without a moment's hesitation or doubt, I will win the Premier League.

8:17Yeah. I don't know with what club, but I will win the Premier League. It's that kind of maniacal self-belief that you kind of need to run a club like Spurs. And Frank's problem from the start was that he just didn't have it. He lost as much as we lost on the pitch. He lost in the press room as well. He just couldn't handle himself in the right way. And his quotes go under the radar when you're at Brentford. And even the Brentford fans I spoke to before he was signed is that he is a little bit too complimentary of other players, players of other clubs. He's very kind of mild-mannered and calm with it when sometimes a more fierce response is required.

9:01he got it horrendously wrong in the press room you've got it in order to manage the club the size of Tottenham Hotspur you have to have the gravitas to do it because people will lose faith in you you're the leader of the football club effectively and the mouthpiece so you have to be able to handle that part of it as well as being good and I just think you know there are other managers out there that that um you know probably better at it than that what it was the right time Ben, was it too long? Should he be in sack before? Yeah. You do. At what point did you think he has to go blood? He's got to go blood.

9:40I was thinking about this this morning. My timeline kind of went Arsenal away was when I started first thinking, I'm not sure he's up to this. Fulham at home the game after, I was like, he's got to go. But that was my opinion. and I understood that other people were more willing to give him time at that point. Early on in the season, let's see what happens. I don't think any of us thought about getting dragged into a relegation battle by that point. So I maintained my stance from that point onwards that I think he should be sacked. But he had to go after Bournemouth and he had to go after West Ham.

10:16West Ham was a bad one. West Ham, you think about the position we were in. I think if we'd have won that game, I think we would have been 15 points clear of them. and then now we're at a stage where we're five points clear of them. Gave them a huge boost, a huge kind of shot in the arm. They've gone on one game since then and even in the games they've lost, like Chelsea away where they were two and one up at halftime. They've showed a lot more quality and... Their owners also backed Nuno very quickly in the window by bringing in Taffy and the other one, the two forwards. Transform them. Yeah, and Adama Traore, a player that despite how much you rate him, Nuno wanted him.

10:53Nuno's had him basically everywhere he's been, hasn't he? And Fernandes in midfield, they signed from Southampton. He's a top player. He's an absolutely top player, yeah. And they've got a player out of Somerville. The point is that he got the backing that he felt he needed. He saw how happy he was when he signed both those players. This is at a time where his position was put into question, whereas Frank, you could argue, wasn't backed properly in the January transfer window. But do you think Frank is a sort of manager to kind of, in the same way that Nuno probably would. You saw how Nuno and Maranakis in the summer kind of butted heads and that ended up being one of the reasons why he was obviously relieved of his Jutes three games into the season or whatever it was.

11:33And Edu obviously ended up leaving Forest. I don't think Nuno is the sort of manager to back down in that kind of situation. Whereas I think Frank would be, okay, I understand the market's tricky, that we're all aligned on this, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I said this on the last pod I was on, I think. How badly that statement from Yian Lang could age saying that at least we didn't panic in the market and there's always opportunities to do something. But if we go down... It's the Titanic again, isn't it? It's literally the Titanic. I don't think... Yeah. It's negligent. The thing is, the club deserved this for the negligence that they've kind of showed in keeping Frank in as long as they did.

12:13We don't deserve it, though, Ben. No, we don't. No, we don't. And the irony is that you had nearly like a half-empty stadium. well not half empty about£45 ,000 I reckon there it was insane but when you're charging up to£94 a ticket in the South Stand average around £60 a ticket and Newcastle yeah are obviously a bigger side and you can't do can you do dynamic pricing throughout the season to sort of influence that potentially so you're not in a situation where you've got a half empty stadium because people don't want to pay those prices I don't know but it's a result of like sneaking more they do this every year they sneak more teams into category A they sneak more teams into category B and fans end up paying the ultimate price for the punishment that the club actually deserve for their own negligence.

12:52But it's us that have to, we literally pay that and obviously deal with all the consequences of it. Yeah, and also, just to say, we didn't panic. Maybe you should have fucking panicked. Sometimes panic leads to action. Yeah, and you get out of it. There's no urgency, that's the thing, I think. It sums up everything about Tottenham. It's just so passive. There's no urgency to do anything. Yeah, this is the bigger issue for me, right, is that, yeah, look, and I'm sure we'll get into all of Frank's issues and the failings on the pitch and the issues with certain players that we need improving, all of that kind of stuff.

13:25But the West Ham point you made there, it wasn't just Nuno, right? The club were aware they had a problem and decided to do something about it. And I think that's the difference with what we've got, right? We've got issues at all of those different stages. We've spoken about it before about the playing side, the manager and the players. Then there's the director of football and the scouting and how that works and the integration of youth players. And then there's the decision makers at board level. The board and the sort of director of football level is also really culpable here for me. They've waited way too long to make a decision on Frank.

14:01We're all saying it should have been earlier. We can agree and disagree on exactly a date, but not now. This is too late already, too late. So we're in a situation where we've got to now get ourselves out of a relegation battle. Whereas to Ben's point, even if it was West Ham, which was probably still too late then, it would have just been a bad finish in the league. So their inaction has caused us a lot of issues to this point. And the inaction in the transfer window is compounding the problems on the pitch. Because now we're just, from a numbers point of view, whilst I still think the players we have available are good enough to get out of this situation, we're just going to run out of them.

14:39We're just going to get so many injuries. We're not going to be able to field a team. and that is that is something that they should have been panicking about they should have been looking at going i know this isn't good but that's a problem for tomorrow like if we don't solve this now being in the championship with a load of expensive players at that half injured is also just as much of a problem as having too many players to deal with the following summer you've got you've got to find a solution and they didn't do it so yes frank is like culpable for a lot of the issues and I'm sure we'll get into him but Vinay and I know he's only been in charge for a short amount of time and Langer particularly those two need to take a lot of heat here because there's a lot of sort of issues surrounding these problems that are their responsibility and I am glad to see they have taken now some action in replacing Frank or getting rid of Frank what they do next though is really crucial like that they can really get this wrong as well and then we're also in a bad situation we find ourselves in an they're in an awkward situation as well right you would argue the plan potentially should be get a director of football in uh probably remove langer completely yeah but get a director of football in who can create a idea a plan that spreads years right but a builds a an an environment of which a manager can come in and work instantly it's not not just just change the dynamics of the football club depending on which manager you get which is what we've done with Costa Coglu and then to Frank despite Langer saying that that isn't what was going to happen exactly happened but you you know what type of manager you want you recruit to have for a particular style or system and it all works harmoniously that's that's kind of how you'd hope it might work the problem we've got here is you I wouldn't imagine Pochettino who's my choice I'm going to come on to what you think might happen next but I wouldn't imagine Pochettino would necessarily want to work under a director of football if you remember he's he's he's title changed from head coach to manager at some point during his time at Spurs.

16:58He also, when I think he was at PSG, he fell out with Leonardo, who was the director of football there. So in that instance, and this is James Alcox that mentioned this to me this morning, is that you perhaps start talking to him about who he wants to work with in that respect. In an ideal world, we survive the season with an interim him and then we go big for Potts after the World Cup is what I would want, especially after listening to him talk about Spurs in that podcast. It's exactly what we need right now.

17:36But there are options on the table, aren't there? Like the Zerbys left Marseille today. Suddenly Thomas Franks set. I kind of, my feeling, my ideal situation is just let's wait out for Potts, bring him back and hope that whoever is the interim boss can keep us up yeah mason in

18:03again for the how many how much what what time would that be now one that's a third time interim an absolute clusterfuck of a football club when you have to keep coming back to a geezer who knows the club yeah i get it but this is this just is so systematic of a breakdown in leadership at the club where this has happened three times now, if it is Mason that comes back. Which is why, you know, why you kind of worry a little bit about, or feel a little bit of sympathy from Frank, because you have the injuries, you've got complete change in ownership, or effectively the person who runs the club. Daniel Levy institutionalised Tottenham in his own image, and then he's removed.

18:46Donald Cullen's gone. These are big time decision makers at the football club. Vinay comes in, he's now got a new role, the one with much more responsibility than he had thought that he was signing up to. Naturally, he took it. You've got Pratich coming in, this weird dual sporting director role. No director of football above them. One of them you would argue probably could have been the director of football, but if you've got two people being a sporting director, effectively you don't have a director of football. You're not doing that job. and if they don't align about how they feel the football club should move forward, how can you, you can't work like that.

19:23John, you'll know working in businesses and in structure and being parts of sign-up. It's really important to have an easy through road of information where you've got two people of equal responsibility, butting heads about different ideas. It's not conducive to the moving of a company the size of Tottenham. So you need a clear leadership structure, don't you? Yeah, the hierarchy and the sort of moving of pieces on the chessboard of the way Spurs have operated, especially in this sort of start of this year, has been very chaotic. Behind the scenes, there's been so many people hired, so many new people coming into the sort of business side, let's say, that also touches the sporting side of Spurs.

20:09So that isn't easy because it's like everybody's new. so everyone's looking for like what we're trying to do and figure things out and that's okay if like the football inside's working well but when it's not functioning well it's like nobody seems to be taking responsibility Paratici was pointless in the end because he basically was like looking at his next job and working out how to get the best out of the situation to to suit Fiorentina fine and Lange is is a youth scout and a pretty good one but he's not a director of football and we have a manager who is like a modern manager who works in that system he is sort of reliant on those people and that hierarchy to work and it hasn't worked but what i would say is vinoy langer the lewis family enik scott munn and all these people do not make us bang it up the line to slanky that's thomas frank right he has set the agenda for the way that we play on the pitch which is as far as i could tell right because it's pretty hard to see what we were trying to do play it along the back four until we get pressed and then bang it long to slanky and if slanky's not on play it down the line for odebear to chase in behind until he does his crew shoot ligament that is basically the only tactic i can really see sit off and invite pressure let them shoot from distance that's the only thing i can see frank is in control of that that can be changed and can be changed quite quickly and so for me i'm with you flab i think this isn't we don't have to overthink disappointment right i think you and i said this half joking but any sort of i guess sort of resembles this idea is you can get big sam you get harry redknapp like just someone who goes okay here's how you defend basic defense here's how we attack basic attack and this is what i want you to do go and express yourself motivate the players yeah the players are much better than what we're seeing and they just need to be given very simple and clear instructions We've all seen pictures of Thomas Frank's little board with all these little circles and the notes that he writes down and the conversations for hours with Cochran and the other coaches about the tiny little details.

22:14And then what happens is like a player just gets like subbed on and goes into the same position. It's like information overload. I think very quickly with some very simple changes, you could get some results from this team. I'm not saying it'd fix the problems. you just need to turn this like horrible form on its head and start moving forward and then i would be to your point i would be really looking at potch and saying like having conversations now going like look number one target we want you but there's no doubt about it what's this what's the structure you want do you want a director of football to help you with transfers and all that do you want scouts what do you want we will make you the manager if you want we don't need to buy into this idea of it's got to be a director of football and you've got to have this way of because that's what other clubs do.

22:59That's what other system. Sure, but we don't have to do that. We can do whatever we want. And we need to sign a manager here that could change things. Exactly. Maybe you have that system later, but just with Potts, work with him. Don't limit ourselves. Also, what are international managers actually doing now? What's he doing? Just come and manage us now. Genuinely, what are they possibly doing? He already knows. Or at least give it to Hazes Perez now and let Potts come in the summer. but what's Potch doing though seriously day to day like he's got time to go on high performance with Jake you're telling him he can't manage Spurs and then when the season's over go straight into the USA team like imagine now you're the England manager you've got to do your normal day to day job you could still do it and then and then when I woke up you go here's my players there's the select the players and off we go it's not what is he doing every day that he couldn't manage Spurs as well give him the Spurs job now I guess it's the I guess the optics of it would be for the USA bearing in mind how big they've gone in the World Cup and all this talk about yeah we could win it and all that kind of stuff if they let Poch come and take us over for three months before the World Cup they would not have that I just don't I know you don't think it no that's a good point actually what they're going to do nothing maybe they'll sack it I mean you mentioned I'm RJ Decker the private investigator uncovering the sunshine state's darkest secrets Tuesdays it's the premiere of ABC's hottest new crime show.

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25:41Why wait? Ask your doctor, visit BotoxChronicMigraine.com, or call 1-800-44-BOTOX to learn more. Get him in. Just ask the question. Get him in. Yeah, would you? Any chance? Yeah, I wouldn't mind like, yeah, that little Perez geezer. He spoke really well. I feel like I've not heard him speak for about five, well, ever since he kind of left Spurs. What are you saying? But you thought you'd sound different? Yeah, well, no, I just thought it was a clear communication. And by different, you mean you sounded like what? Well, let's be honest. Let's face it, right? Poch talks in riddles a lot of the time, doesn't he?

26:14Like, it's quite hard to sometimes understand what the point is that he's trying to make. Whereas, Hedges Perez, I think, is quite a clear communicator and director. I thought you were talking about the sound of his voice, like where he might come from. No, not necessarily. Although that sort of almost did surprise me as well, but more because I haven't heard him speak for a very long time. He's better at speaking than Pochettino. Yeah, for sure. I'm going to have a nightmare, aren't I, if Pochettino comes back? I can't even say Pochettino without saying Postacoglu now. It'll be like if he actually comes.

26:48I've got a solution for you. Just call Pochettino Poch. Yeah. And then that way, it's because the length of the names are quite similar and the vowels and the sound. If you just call him Potch, you're not going to call him Posht and get it right higher. So just call him... Just Potch and Ange. Yeah, easy. All right, all right. All right. What would you do if they were like, Ange, fancy it for three months to the end of the season? We'd get relegated. Yeah, we'd be in big trouble, I think. My first instinct would be relegation, yeah. Yeah. Just go play, mate. It's who we are. No, no, no, no, no, stop.

27:25Don't do that again. Don't do that again. It's who we are. If Arsenal, in that game in two weeks' time, if they have the same amount of corners that Newcastle did in that first half, if Andrew's our manager in that game, we'd be 5-0 down at half time. It was unreal. It was unbelievable. It was like the barrage. That whole game, it started badly and just got progressively worse until it ended. Yeah. Can we, just before we, there's other sort of managers that are potentially linked to, if it is an interim manager, who might it be? Johnny Heysen, he goes as well, but he had a rough time as the Ajax interim manager.

27:55They hate his guts, in fact. But Archie Gray, the only one that walks away from that game. 100%. Last night with any kind of credit, not just a goal, just as a player in that kid. It's almost unfair on him. He's come into an absolute bin fire, and he's just done his best. He's walked in like this. Oh, my God, the whole place is on fire. Shit. yeah and he's done his best yeah I just want to shout out no you're right he did I thought he did it against City as well like in the second half where obviously there was bigger players that took the credit for that Slanky, Simmons their performances etc but even like because obviously it's a City game we're set up with a five at the back he was playing right wing back it doesn't really suit him then he played at right back and he was the one that was kind of getting us out a lot of the time against City down that right hand side and then switching the play over quickly and we could then attack from the left with the space that City were leaving us I felt like he was doing that a lot last night and driving forward and showing impetus.

28:53He's got balls. That's what I like about him. He's just like, for a kid that has had so much adversity in his time at Spurs so far, I think it'd be easy almost for him to shy away from it and go, well, there's much bigger problems here than me. I'm just, you know, I'm a young player, right? But he's done tremendously well, really, in the context that he's been put into. I thought he was really good. Yeah, Alistair Gold said, if van der Ven blazes an effort over the crossbar and Solanke's overhead kick is blocked. And there's a geese called Beef Sammage. He replies, do you think the squad are just doing overhead kick drills and nothing else?

29:27Well, Gray did a scorpion kick, didn't he, as well in their penalty area. He tried one of them. Yeah, he did. So if, say it's not De Zerbi, what if it is De Zerbi? How do you feel about that? Because if De Zerbi comes in, he's not coming in as an interim, he's coming in to manage Tottenham, it feels to me and I'll be open-minded and get behind him and all that sort of stuff it feels to me in 18 to 24 months we perhaps won't be threatened to relegation but we'll be on fire again that's what it feels like the end of it it could blow up spectacularly couldn't it yeah I just look when De Serbi first took that Brighton team and they just suddenly just like went into another gear and just looked electric and sort of he definitely has built the foundation of them just kicking on yeah it was amazing i was like wow this like this is great and i remember they played against us in the middle of that like brilliant run and it was like this is his audition for the spurs job and we just smashed him up and he just lost his head and he was going mental i don't know if he got sent into the stands but it just didn't it just didn't like he couldn't seem to cope yeah he just couldn't cope with the pressure and then subsequently to that it's just he's always rowing with everyone falling out with everyone and whilst you know i love a compassionate emotional manager like that's part of it it's the wrong type it's more into the sort of conte side rather than the poch and ang side and i just can't be dealing with that i really do think that unless it's poch we shouldn't be looking to make a permanent manager appointment at this moment in time because let's say it isn't poch just in the summer generally there are going to be a lot of good managers available and so it seems a bit foolish to run into just going for De Zerbi because he's available now.

31:13I'm just not sure he's the right man. I agree. I think I don't like De Zerbi. I don't like his character. I think he's a bellend. Good. On the other hand, maybe this squad needs a bit of bullying. I don't know. But I also just think that he's an excellent coach, I think, an excellent tactician. He plays lovely football. But could you imagine him right now trying to play out from the back the way that he wants to with Rowdy Dragasin and the players that we've got available with Romero out for the next three games. I think that could cause more problems than almost good. I think if you strip away his character and that is the type of manager they wanted to go for the long term, I think he's the right fit in terms of the sort of football that he would play.

32:00I think, again, that is important. I've said this a few times. I think I got a bit caught up in the summer about the fact that we needed someone who could sort of do both. I think there's obviously a lot of people thought that, right? And that's why I thought having a more pragmatic manager and Frank made sense to kind of come in at the time that he did after what happened with Ange. But it became quite quickly that Frank wasn't a pragmatic manager. He was a negative manager who thinks way more about the opposition than he does about himself, than he does about his own team. He can't be the dominator.

32:34He can't be the aggressor. I thought he'd scale up a lot better than he did and show elements of being able to be pragmatic. And when it's time to defend, defend. And that's what Ange didn't do ultimately at points throughout his Spurs career. So I think someone like De Zerbi, in terms of his style, is 100 % the right sort of manager that Spurs should be going for in terms of the football they play. And that DNA is important. People said about Man United, you don't really know what the Man United DNA that everyone goes on about is until you see it. And you're seeing it right now. and Spurs have got so far away from what ours is.