S15E69 - The Looming Of De Zerbi

0:00This podcast is part of the Sports Social Podcast Network. It's the fighting It's the fighting Cock It's the fighting It's the fighting Cock A camel, churn up Hello, welcome back to the Fight Club Podcast Today I'm joined by John Bass And my other big man, Ben Bowman How's it going boys? Alright, not bad When the news dropped that Igor Trudor had been sacked, we'd known this for like three or four days, didn't we? We knew his old man had passed away. It felt like mutual consent. Everyone's moving on. And just really, just an unmitigated disaster. It's alarming. I'm trying to think about other ways to frame this conversation in a way that I haven't done previously, and I can't.

0:56It's just a disaster made. Who's making decisions in the football club? Why are they making them? and how are they accountable for their failings? I need to know the answers to these questions now. Yeah. Well, if you think the disasters are going to stop, then... Oh, you're mistaken. I've got another thing. You're mistaken. Yeah. Yeah. It's difficult to talk about it because everyone knew it was coming. It's just like... It's not like, oh my God, it's like the bomb has dropped and let's sort of survey the damage. We knew it was done pretty much as the final whistle. Yeah. Is there any part of you, John, thinks maybe this is um i've just noticed there's a bafta behind you did you've done that on purpose no no my wife is in there so when she likes to remind everyone that she's won one i thought sorry people at home this is terrible podcast and you can't see this but john's wife works in television then won a bafta and i just thought that for some reason as i was talking there i was distracted by it because it's not every day you see a fucking bafta award and i thought you'd put it on your left hand shoulder so everyone could see john sorry yeah no i wouldn't take the credit for it like because you imagine this is such a weird line work on the tv yeah i want a baffer what what for do you remember that episode of the fighting cock yeah do you remember that funny anecdote yeah well they just hand them out for that these days yeah yeah no it's not mine but no but it is your wife's and you support with her so in in a way it is sort of yeah exactly if everything's like equal these days isn't it you know we're all doing stuff around the house together we're all got careers so we should just equally accept that i never that's fine i never felt comfortable lying on the sofa while my missus was cleaning up even even if like if i if i do sort of think the nuclear family is probably the one that i most sort of align with um i never like i've never just sit down and let my missus do the washing anyway it doesn't matter but um i've got a question for you john uh and that is is there any part of you that thinks that sacking Trudor might have been a mistake um and the reason why I say that if you look at the sample pool of the last three games you got the Liverpool game you've got um the great win against Atletico Madrid and you know who just narrowly lost to Real Madrid last week um and then obviously you've got the catastrophe or certainly second half catastrophe of that like overall those three games you would say the Trudor was moving in the right direction Is that mental?

3:22Yeah, if I was going to make a case for why this is a bad decision, I would certainly point to those, right? And you can obviously make a case for him going because you can also look at the fact that we haven't won any league games and the last one, the Forest game, was an abomination of result. If I was to make another point as to why this might be a mistake is just look at who we're being linked with to take over. right it's this there isn't like this magic bullet where something else has changed in the football landscape and someone's available and you go ah okay this this person now can come in that's going to be the thing we need it almost feels like it wasn't really working we didn't get the manager bounce we wanted the forest game was awful all of that's fair but now it's like well i don't see how this improves things either it's not like there's some magic bullet that's going to come in and fix this so now we're in a situation where this might actually unravel and cause more chaos now the optimistic part of me is like whoever they appoint again maybe this we just finally get a manager bounce they don't have to be the best manager in the world they just have to get some sort of reaction and we didn't get what we were expecting from Tudor so maybe whoever it is that's what we get just any kind of reaction I guess my concern is the people that have made all the decisions that have got us to this point are now the people responsible for making the next decision which will this is it right this is the last chance the last thing that you can possibly do this is it this is the final go so whatever happens next they have to get this right and it might be that they get it right by luck it might be that they get it right by judgment but so far what we've seen is that they aren't great at making these type of decisions so it is a bit of a i can completely understand why i needed to go but also like i don't know now where we go from here well where we might be going from here is roberto de zerbi de zerbi just gave him another uh two double middle name roberto de zerbi roberto de zerbi um oh god it almost feels like it doesn't matter who it is it don't like i look it talk about him as a football manager right for a second he doesn't feel like the ideal candidate in this exact moment you got seven games what is he known for he's he's he's known for intricate passing out from the back inviting presser on pressing on breaking through that press and causing mayhem in the final third which sounds great if you've got a preseason to make it work yeah what we i feel like we need right now is

6:18someone who's just going to go in make training fun give them five or five a size to play get them organized at the back everyone having a good time playing their players in their positions and hope for the best is that or or is there an argument for a project manager right now not in not in my opinion i i think the the route was to go down was the was the interim guy that knows the club that has a connection with those players that would get the fans on board immediately i mean obviously like you said talk about deserved as a football manager but i don't think you could have made an appointment that would have split the fan base as much as it does now and we need we don't need that we need does it split the fan base that appointment yeah definitely what 50-50 I saw I think it was Lily White Rose did a poll yesterday actually and it literally was bang on 50-50 I think at the time at the time I casted my vote it was 50-50 so yeah yeah you couldn't be any more split that's what we need that's all your more decisions that split the fan base I know exactly that's the thing it's like Deserby Deserby will do that Deserby literally has done that already over the course the last few days, even when it was kind of first mooted.

7:34But yeah, as a football manager, I've always liked what De Zerbi is about in terms of his principles. But I think the route to go down was a Mason at this point, in my opinion. De Zerbi, when he first came into Brighton, obviously De Zerbi got them into Europe. He got them punching above their weight, got them playing some of the best football in the league, maybe bar City at that point. And Liverpool, obviously different styles. but he didn't win any of his first five games in charge of Brighton. It took him a while to get going. And obviously, look, Tudor's come in with a reputation of being able to go into places and firefight and get teams, snap them kind of back in the right direction.

8:19And he didn't do that. So just because De Zerbe wasn't able to do that, that doesn't mean that he can't necessarily at Tottenham. But again, I don't know what the thinking is there to just chuck all of the money at him now. when he hasn't got a record of being able to kind of hit the ground running straight away well because he's they don't have a choice they're like i mean they have a choice in that they could go mason they could they're probably burnt by the the eagle tudor the problem the reason why they they're panicking and they're going to serve it please come now please come now as opposed to waiting to the end of the season going we have our choice of five or six top class managers probably you've got areola out of contract he might sign a new one but this is as it stands You've got Oliver Glasner out of contract.

9:01You've got Pochettino after the World Cup. You have De Zerbe who still doesn't potentially have a job. You suddenly be able to play the market in the correct way, take your time and go, right, how are we going to rebuild this club? How are we going to rebuild the playing staff in order to make sure he has everything he needs, the next manager, to implement his tactics? All of those things are a really sensible way to go. But because of indecision, because of the sort of shotgun firing of Daniel Levy and the vacuum that created, because people like Nick Boucher are making footballing decisions at a football club with no background of being able to do that.

9:36We're in a situation now where they're going, oh my fucking God, the house is on fire and we've just woke up. So quickly, anything, Deserby, give it to him. You look at our squad, he's not even fit for Deserby's purpose. He's not fit for what he needs players to do. Vicario would effectively have become a quarterback. He would have to play football consistently. Kinski back and go. Yeah, Kinski back and go. Kinski would probably be better for him. Probably be better for the Zerbi. It's just a mishmash of bullshit. Individually, I don't have any issue with the players, but it's just there's been so little cohesion in putting this team together that it's going to take windows to sort out.

10:19And we don't have a sporting director or a director of football of note. And, you know, we talked about, We had this angry discussion yesterday. Everyone was quite annoyed again because we knew Tudor was coming, but we also, it just brings to the fore all your feelings about the club. And everyone is saying like, Venkatesh, get Langer, and I'm with everyone, right? It's fine. I don't think a CEO, appointment of a CEO is something that means that massive changes happen consistently. He just needs to make a series or they need to make, or she needs to make a series of good decisions that overall shape the business or the football club in the right direction, right?

11:00And you probably won't be able to see that in seven or eight months. But if he doesn't have the ear of the board and he isn't allowed to shape the club in the way that he wants Venkatesham, then he is redundant. He's pointless. And Lange, as a sporting director, I have zero faith in him building a culture at the football club, which is what needs to happen. So if someone says, get Lange and Venkatesham them out my club i 100 understand it my worry is if they're not there who is then making the decisions to appoint the next person who's going to create the culture of the club and that goes back to nick boucher it goes back to vivian lewis and that is terrifying but they'll leave you at least new football to a certain degree but that is the same issue though mate right like what you're saying there if you riddle that out a bit further if vini is incapable or unable to convince the or have final say on things, like apparently he wanted to keep Thomas Frank and they basically overruled him, then they are in charge now, right?

12:02So in which case, fire Vinay, because it's pointless in being there. And I agree with you, right? Like we had a conversation, it was a few months back, so we were still struggling then, but we were both saying then, you know, depending on the sort of level that they're in in the club, like the manager is like week to week, they're under fire because every change they every decision they make impacts the performance of the players and then that's impacts results you know director of football is more window to window right like the players that they decide and then the ceo it's like it's over seasons in terms of time horizons and normally and up until very recently i've sort of agreed with that which is like it's really hard to judge him but this season there's been some really major decisions to be made and he has made them so badly that it's had such a detrimental impact on us the the main reason that we're in this mess like within this season so forget the daniel levy and the squad building prior to this season this season the main reason we are in this mess is because we stuck with thomas frank way too long way too long that is his fault and his fault alone he could have at any point gone i got pulled the trigger here this is not working but we had a conversation we had a conversation a few times about he's only sticking with him because he stuck with Arteta and that worked out and so he's just blinded by that and now he's going to stick with Frank we'd probably still have Thomas Frank now if it was for him that is that's enough that's grounds enough like you've dragged us into this situation through a failure to act that's got us into this point same with the Paratici scenario like that whole mess like you're the CEO you've got some guy basically responsible for being your director of football who's sort of floating around and just doing whatever he wants and then leaves in the middle of a transfer window which completely unravels our transfer window he should have been fired you should have fired him and gone he's not my guy i'm getting rid of him be decisive his inaction has got us to this point in isolation of this season of course there are broader issues but i do actually think at this point in time there is a case of just going let's just fire this guy like he is pointless what about sorry to cut you John what about if they they would I think they'd be happy to do that I think the way they they handled the Daniel Levy situation shows that they're willing to just fire someone without a plan well they may have a plan that they can't instill right now but I just look at it the more I think about it and again I know this winds people up because they're just there's a lot of revisionism about Daniel Levy.

14:38I don't know why I did that voice. There's a lot of revisionism about Daniel Levy. So, because, you know, he wasn't a good manager, a good chairman. And I think we all agree now that it was right that Daniel Levy should have been removed from the football club. However, I think what has been done incorrectly is how swiftly they acted without a clear plan or certainly a plan that they were convinced would work. and if the plan was to bring in Venkatesham to replace Daniel Levy, which similar roles, he did the similar thing at Arsenal. So you could see that they perhaps had some plan in place. For him then not to even know that the plan was that he was going to replace Daniel Levy, because you have to assume that based on the content that we've seen and them two sitting together and talking about red wine and all that shit, that he didn't know what the plan was and he was surprised that he was now, in terms of the footballing sense, the power broker, or what he should have been, that isn't planning.

15:38That's mayhem. He's come in and gone, oh, what? Hang on, he's sacked. Now I'm the guy. All right, I hadn't prepared for this at all. And now perhaps what you're seeing, you know, the fact that Paratash has come in and gone, fucking hell, I'm getting out of here. This isn't what they said I must be doing. I've got to share it with him, that little blonde Herbert there. I can't share power with him. he's a youth scout. I mean, glorified youth scout is probably a bit harsh. I think people are quite angry of him. He might be more than that, but do you know, this is my point. And Prastegi's come in who's probably the most football guy that we've had, whether you like him or not, whether he's, his way of, you know, operating is a little bit old school.

16:20Whatever it is, he's entrenched in football. And Langer is to a certain extent as well, but he's come in and gone, this is crazy, I'm out, you'd imagine. Romero's going, and I was lied to. What is... I can't not look past Enoch and the Lewis family for all of this. Even if Langer didn't find players to sign or Venkatesham didn't give him the remit or whatever it was, it just stems... It all comes back to them. It is them, just to be clear. I don't want people thinking I'm making an excuse for them. It's 100 % them, but it's both, right? Ultimately, there's no one above them. So I am looking at them to make decisions.

17:00Currently, the people that they're allowing to make the more footballing decisions aren't doing a good job so they still should be fired as a result of them being terrible the the concern is and exactly the same with Tudor right we're all looking at Tudor going I understand why he needs to go the next thing is like but the people making the decision on who to replace him with I'm also worried about them the issue here is that we can't do anything about them like they're not gonna go so this is why i think people are worried and concerned on a bigger scale is because the buck stops with people that haven't got a clue and have completely removed now every single person at all levels who seemingly has a clue which is why for me there's a really simple fix which they could have done months earlier and they still can do it now which is get people who know about the club in inside that room with them like get them in the room you don't necessarily need to make harry rednap the manager as i've been advocating for for weeks now but get like glenn hoddle and harry rednap and jermaine defoe and dawson and king and all that get them in the room and ask their opinion on stuff talk to them about football get david pleat in the room get these old heads who understand football culture and understand the club and the history and what it means and ask them to help inform decisions that you take in business it's like a very simple practice of just understanding what your business culture is this our business is a football club so you need to understand that the culture of the football team and that side to understand your business decision making practices and we don't have that and it's so clear based on the managers that we've appointed none of them match they're all just different styles and culture cultures and approaches and i think it's that kind of decision making across the whole business no structure no structure no culture no identity yeah and no Jermaine Defoe because he has just joined Woken FC yeah doing bits even look at like the two the two main targets that we've gone for in this international break which is Irby and Sean Dyche you literally couldn't find two polar opposites in terms of in terms of style so it's like do you want a guy that is going to sit you in your own penalty area and just try and head everything away and hit teams on the counter attack like prime Dyche ball keep the ball out of your net and try and put it in theirs or do you want a manager that is capable of playing beautiful football in deservedly.

19:20What do you want? Tottenham don't really know what they want to be at the best of times, but this situation has massively exposed their inability to run a football club and their inability to make good decisions. And it's all catching up with them now, but yeah, it's crazy. You couldn't find two managers a little more different than each other from that. I mean, Ben, I just sort of realised something as you were talking there. Let's be completely honest Are you happy with your job? The fact is a huge number of people can't say yes to that Too many of us are stuck in a job we've outgrown Or one we never really wanted in the first place But we stick it out and we give reasons like What if the next move is worse?

20:01And I've put years into this place And maybe the most common one Isn't everyone miserable at work? But there's a difference between reasons for staying And excuses for not leaving It's time to get unstuck It's time for strawberry.me They match you with a certified career coach who helps you get from where you are to where you want to be, either at your existing job or by helping you find a new one. Your coach helps clarify your goals, creates a plan and keeps you accountable along the way. Go to strawberry.me slash career and get 50 % off your first coaching session. That's strawberry.me slash career.

20:40This has all gone tits up since we met you. well we did win a trophy no one cares about that everyone's forgotten about the Europa League trophy everyone's forgotten about that now doesn't matter someone actually did say to me if you had won the Europa League would you

20:59by the way I'm not finished with blaming you yeah keep going right but someone did say to me with would you take relegation this season for the Europa League win I think we talked about in the group actually and I remember thinking at on the final whistle or two minutes before the final whistle just give us this give us this doesn't matter what comes next just give us this yeah and like I think we all I think Alex said we I think we all really genuinely sold a lot of our soul down the we sold our soul a little bit that that evening just to get that that win and now the the chickens are coming home to roost or not as it may be yeah yeah but I just think Ben like just this correlation with just like you being a part of Fighting Cock and you know being on TikTok and that that it is actually true isn't it nothing good has happened since I met you yeah right nothing literally nothing I was I don't mind I'll take one for the team and I'll just take it shall I take a sabbatical between now and the end of the season no because I need I'll need people in the pod so yeah do you want to go down do you want to stay up there is this um uh there's a silver lining that man city could be condemned to relegation as a 60 point deduction could be given before the end of the season never gonna happen football just will not work out like that for us also that that basically like it's almost like a classic fighting cop question which is like would you guarantee that arsenal win the league to guarantee that we stay up or would you like because that's basically what it is right if City get deducted the points then they definitely go down that's the title rest 100 % yeah but it's an asterisk next to Arsenal win forever exactly it's almost the perfect storm it is it is the perfect storm come on Premier League come on come on do the right thing do the right thing corrupt as fuck I'll just start singing that every game now become like Everton do the right thing I think there is little people do the right thing Premier League come on I've actually been so not interested in all of it for the entirety of this whole I couldn't like alright if they get down they probably won't get done lawyers are amazing they'll kick it into the longer ass i've never i just you know football and decision making is controlled by financial clout like why people i think are naive going well no hang on a minute liverpool leicester like all this stuff like they should be the 10 points oh this isn't fair of course it isn't fair what part of football is fair when has it ever been fair whoever has the most money and makes the most amount of right decision wins you cannot win by making just right decisions alone apart from leicester the exception pools are all there's nothing fair about it um according to horny orny i should probably stop calling him that because you might want they'd be able to get him the lab or something um but according to horny orny uh we have officially made a five year bid to convince or say give deserve your contract for five years make him Tottenham Hotspur manager right now.

23:57So regardless of, you know, talking about what should happen, this seems like it'd be the most likely thing that's going to happen now. It's been reported by the Telegraph, been reported by David Nordstein, Jack Pitbrook, The Athletic, everywhere. This is serious stuff. We're moving heaven and earth to get De Zerbi in. What are your thoughts on him as a manager? Say in the dream world. Well, I guess the first question is, does he keep us up? Ben? I don't know. Gut feeling. Yeah, it would be, yeah. That's because he's done it and he's been a good manager at Premier League level. But I also think it could be like, there is a chance that this is an absolute disaster.

24:45Like, he's such a hothead. there's a lot of baggage that comes with him.

24:54And as I said, the proof is in the pudding that when he first came to Brighton, it took him a while to kind of get going. Obviously, he was a different manager when he first stepped into the Premier League at Brighton. He's got more experience under his belt now. He's obviously managed at Brighton for a few years and then went to Marseille and done decent things. So he's got more experience under his belt from a footballing point of view. So that's not to say that he can't come in and hit the ground running. but like you said, do we have, what is he going to do? How much is he going to be able to change in this seven game run?

25:24Because we don't have the players right now or the confidence really in the squad to play the football that he wants to play which is to bait teams in to get them to press high, play through the lines and exploit the space in behind. Very similar to what Ange kind of wanted to do. Similar, not exactly the same in terms of tactics but similar in terms of football principles. And then you've got on the other end of the spectrum, as I said, you've got someone like a Sean Dyche who wanted to just, it would just be like, just head it and kick it away and we'll just... I'll give you another... I'll give you another pose then.

25:54Like Dyche, three-year deal or De Zerbe, three-year deal? Right now. I don't want Dyche. I don't want either of them really, but like, I'd probably still pick De Zerbe from a footballing point of view. But like, what I was going to say was even if it was Dyche that was going to come in, we can't do that either. Like, the players have shown they can't organise themselves as a back line. They can't defend as a unit. They can't concentrate for long periods of games. And that's not to say that Deitch wouldn't be able to change that. But we don't really, we've shown no ability whatsoever to be able to play in the way that he wants to because Tudor kind of wanted to do that at points as well.

26:32You know, we just can't defend our own box. So whatever route we would have gone down, I'm not sure you can guarantee it would have brought safety even though one's a very decent manager in De Zerbi and one of them is a manager that is an expert in survival. So, it just, it all feels a bit icky. It feels a bit grim. The fact they've chucked a five-year deal with him, it's like, this guy is going to get, no wonder he wants to come now. He's probably going to get the biggest payoff in history when it inevitably goes tits up at some point. Hopefully that isn't this season, but also, he's got form for things just blowing up as well.

27:06It just, I don't feel great about it, to be honest. I did, so his reputation at Marseille was good in terms of, like his ability as a manager they considered to be a success he averaged 1.8 points per game which is the second highest in his career only that was Shakhtar Donetsk when he's at 2.1 and obviously left there because of the the invasion of Ukraine and went to Brighton and we all know that his reputation was enhanced there as well but the reason why the biggest thing whenever anyone's spoken to me about Dezerbi is there's a couple of things he's handling of um Mason Greenwood was questionable to be kind of uh and then 18 months into his roles at most well certainly at Brighton but also at Marseille things seem to go tits up and one of the problems at Tottenham is that we just cannot seem to get any kind of long-term structure in place that means that a manager can really um come in and do what they need to do and be given the tools to do that you know he averages his average time at club is just over a year 1.3 months but again skewed by the Shakhtar Dines' job which he obviously couldn't couldn't continue in because of the war um and then typically the reason why he falls out and this is the where the alarm bells are what what what did you imagine if you had an assumption like in my head I know he's fiery but what what what could you could you guess boys what you think might be the issues with him leaving a football club.

28:39Is it disputes with the board and or owners and or player recruitment? Like, is it that? How did you know? It's almost like I can, that's what's happened everywhere he's been. And that's his personality. He's basically like Conte part two. He needs players, specific players to be able to play his system in the long run. Interestingly, there was something about his time at Marseille which has suggested he is adaptable because Marseille, like Tottenham, are a reactive football club, right? They look at opportunities in the market and then they exploit them. Mason Greenwood being an excellent example of that.

29:21You know, Hojbjerg being available, so they bring him in. And that isn't what De Zerbe likes. He likes to be involved in recruitment, but crucially buying particular specific profiles to play in his system. and Marseille operating in a more chaotic sort of opportunistic way, they kind of didn't meet, right? And that's what Spurs effectively have been, although they have promised to change that in recent times and perhaps haven't been given the opportunity to do so and will do in the summer if you've been kind to them. So he has been a lot more or been forced to play in a way at Marseille that is a little bit more, how do I get these players playing rather than I'm fixed to this system, so therefore I would do it.

30:06So maybe there is a nod there, but every problem that he's had elsewhere, I can't see him not having at Spurs. It just makes absolutely no sense. It really makes no sense. I just... What is he going to do? What is he going to do now? Is he going to try and get them to play the sort of football that he wants? He can't in the short term. That's why I just think that if he really is your guy, yes there are going to be better managers out there in the summer if spurs are able to stay up that you could maybe attract despite surviving relegation by the skin of your teeth but we'd probably still be able to get him in the summer if we stayed up probably i don't see many other clubs that maybe in the premier league that would take a chance and not many other clubs in the premier league need a new manager going into the summer and if they the clubs that do sorry at the top end of the Premier League.

30:57You feel like those targets are probably already lined up. Like Mareska will probably end up at City if Pep does go. Xabi Alonso will probably end up at Liverpool if Arnislot does go. Man United, they're even going to keep Carrick or you feel like you know the targets that they might be after. They're probably not going to go for De Zerbi. So Spurs could probably get him if they really wanted to. And that's why like when those four options came out yesterday where it was like Spurs can't get De Zerbi, they're looking at one of Chris Hute and Harry Redknapp. Who was the other one? Ben Davis and Glenn Hoddle it was like out of all of them four I would have taken Ben Davis and that's mental but I just think they need someone that knows the players that actually I made a joke on Twitter which went down like a lead balloon I knew it would just give it Madden's end of season but if you if you if you Madden's Romero like fuck Romero I can't just I can't deal with it he has the influence to the dressing room doesn't he that is important yeah that is the important thing what if you had if you had to fill a Romero you'd done with him I just can't be arsed anymore I feel like that about all of them though yeah I know what you mean but it's just like I just want to get I don't know he is important that's why when we was having that discussion on the ripple effect last week when James was like would you drop him and it's like probably causes way more problems than it solves by dropping him and also if Deserby does want to play that way he is probably one of the players that is capable of doing what Deserby wants to do Yes, yeah, true, true.

32:26Before 2-3-1 he plays. I'm going to read out a first 11, John. You're going to tell me if this should stay in the league with Deserbe in charge. You've got Vicario, Porro, Van der Ven, Romero and Odogi. A midfielder, Saren Gray, or I'm not sure if that's the correct one, but Saren Gray and then Tell, Xavi Simmonds, Kudus, Solanke up top. that is a fucking decent first XI by any measure but this has sort of been the problem all year isn't it it doesn't matter does it it doesn't matter they're playing absolute garbage we've had we've actually despite all the injuries we've had this season like we've had on occasion lineups where we've had these players available and we still for whatever reason just haven't been able to perform very well I do think Kudus will make a big difference I do think that will help give us a lot of balance that makes a massive difference you get a fit a doggy and Poro for a set run of games that will make a difference.

33:25You can get Van Der Ven and Romero just not being complete morons for a few weeks. Personally, I would play Danso instead of Van Der Ven. I think Van Der Ven is just out of form and not playing very well on his heads all over the place. And neither Romero or Van Der Ven can head it, which is quite a big problem. So I would get Kevin Danso in the mix. Maybe just see how that goes, him and Romero. But aside from that, yeah, I think that makes sense. Also, if you can get... We always do seemingly play better when Saru is in the team, but I feel like there's also an option if it's not him and Gray and Bergvot can get up to speed.

34:07I think Bergvot also gives us something in the middle. So that will help. Is it Gray and Bergvot or is it Paulinho and Gray? Yeah, again, this is another option, depending on who we're playing, right? Because this is the thing about Paulinho, is he won't give you what you want when you're expected to score goals against teams. But in other games where you're under pressure, it can basically give you space because he can basically draw two men tackling back. And so you can let someone cheat a little bit in the midfield and that could be great. So I think, again, this is where having a manager who does understand the Prem and has got experience will help.

34:46So in both Deitch and De Zerbi's case, I could see that working. My main issue is, with De Zerbe particularly, is he does seem like a quote-unquote system manager. And as Ben's alluded to, the last time he tried to implement that, it took X amount of games, which we just don't have. That being said, he knew he would have time to implement it before, whereas this time he knows he doesn't. So it's whether or not he's prepared to go, okay, there's this season De Zerbe ball, and then there's the summer where I can do what I want. I just need to keep these lot up because then I can, you know. From his perspective, he got a five-year deal and keeps us up.

35:27He holds so much power at that point. And so that is attractive to someone, right, who would look at that and go, I have so much influence and power. I can really then start to demand the type of players I want. They'll know they need to spend loads of money. This could be a really good opportunity. So I can see why he would like that. I just feel like all the points everyone's raised so far about like you know more of an option in the summer the issues that we've got with De Zerbi his personal issues and footballing issues the Deitch scenario of he's more of a defensive coach the one thing we've not been good at is defending we're not a team set up for survival right Ben made a good point which is like Sean Deitch is sort of a he's a really good manager right but he's a good manager for teams who want to stay in the league who are sort of prepared and you boys did talk about that on the ripple effect like there are a set group of teams who kind of know going into every season relegation's a possibility and they sort of act accordingly whereas we're not set up for that mentally or player wise or player style wise so that is causing us more of an issue so I'm not sure that even like a defensive quote unquote defensive coach like Tudor and Diage that's why that probably hasn't worked so I do understand the logic of like a more offensive coach because I think that's kind of what we need we need to just fight fire with fire and try and blow teams away and score loads of goals knowing that we're going to concede a lot so maybe Deserby could be that if I was clutching for a positive he'll just go a more gung-ho less structured version of what he wants to play and that might be enough but that is very much clutching at straws okay uh it's a good time to remind you that the fighting cock is backed by NordVPN you can go to our description below and you can see that you can click on a link and you can also see that you will get four months off a two-year plan right now.

37:15If you don't know, you never have to miss a match when you're aboard Connect and Stream. Like, you're back home if Spurs are on. You can unlock more football. Any content that is geolots around the globe can be circumnavigated by NordVPN. You get secure public Wi-Fi when you're in pubs, airports, hotels, wherever you are in the world. and there are over 100 different servers across the globe to log into if you need to um and i think we've discussed ad nauseum about how it helps you when you're at home to access the things you want to access while the kids are safe and the wife doesn't know which um that's fine does she know about your your habits ben my wife yep my i don't well i don't well i'm not married but yeah okay missus that yeah that she doesn't know what do you mean she doesn't know that she doesn't need to know little trip to little trip to canada little trip to while you're on the bog mine's sweden and netherlands for some reason i think canada canada is always like the first one that comes up or germany right on the top bit so i'm always always a little bit scared morgan i was always a little bit afraid like when i started getting into it the sort of german adult stuff scared me a little bit it was all a little bit more i don't know real aggressive i think it's the fact i didn't like it the lighting and the camera work wasn't to my taste.

38:55It's the fact that they dub it over, like they voice it over like it isn't graphic enough, that they've got to be like, and the dub. We know he's jizzing, mate. We don't need to hear it as well. Yeah, I can see that bit. That is a lot. Aggressive dub. That is a, yeah, aggressive sexual dub in English. We're fine. We can, you know, foreign language is fine. Like when I was a kid, the porno is in the middle of a spread. And there'd be like a tin of baked beans on a woman. What's that about? What's that about? And custard. What's that all about? It's custard. What was the one, there was that famous picture that went around of like a, I think it was a, I don't know if it was like promo for The Sun or something.

39:36It was like a page three thing. Yeah. Of the girl with salad cream. I can't remember who the bloke is in the picture. Yeah. It's like a, I can't remember what it is. But it was like, this is like early 2000s in a nutshell. Yeah. Yeah. Like I can't find a, I'll try and find it. It was almost like, it was a bit of fun. and that's like, do you know what would be sexy? Just get a can of Heinz. Put that on her body. Beans. Beans. Yeah, so NordVPN forward slash the fighting cock. Support the podcast. I need you. So yeah, link is in the description below. I've got a message here from a guy called Lee Walker who says, I prefer dessert be over potch.

40:14I'm back in love with the man despite him going to Chelsea, but why go back? Never go back. This is the thing. to me this whole thing is caveated by the idea and I had an obsession I've got with Pochettino coming back and then um but but it's almost like how much risk do you take now you can't just not make a decision now because Pochettino is available in July after the World Cup are we going to be prepared for next season if you wait for Pochettino it's at this station if you're thinking about it realistically is it in any way feasible to wait for him so this geezer wants to zerby instead of poch i mean poch poch got battered at the weekend didn't they i don't want to i don't want to a lot of people from america listen to this podcast

41:06they are shit listen to their pundits some of them you're like what are you lying about Did you see the video? They're talking about the USA players. Like they could play, they're world class. Someone put, what's his name? Richards, the defender for? Chris Richards. Chris Richards as the 16th most influential player above Pedri. Yeah, it's going to be a long summer. My Lord. Richards is not a bad defender. He's definitely a Premier League level defender. Fair play. That is in itself a massive compliment. but Petri is like arguably the best midfielder in the world arguably but this is just like any any conversation about this and sorry American listeners because I love you lot dearly yeah but like any conversation that comes up every year about Super Bowl versus the World Cup and it's like there are Premier League games that get more viewers than the Super Bowl like just it's just it's incomparable but they're and it's one of the best things about the nation they're sort of told all the time how brilliant they are, they sort of can't accept that actually the most popular sport in the world, you're garbage at it.