S15E87 - Are Spurs Finally Fixing the Mistakes of the Past?

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0:47Harry Hotspur:hello and welcome back to the fight podcast today i'm joined once again by cal and the wonderful all felonious filth. Hello. All good, all good. Yes, sir. Yeah, good. I made a mistake. This is Q &A Thursday podcast, and I sent the question. My main source of questions where we do this Q &A is the wonderful people over at Arcois Reddit. And I actually enjoy, I think if I need to go somewhere to find out what's happening with Spurs, I go to Reddit. And Arcois is a great, great place, in my opinion. There are some mental people on there, as you'll find on the internet. Oh, very. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1:29Harry Hotspur:But it's not as bad as Reading. I don't know what that means. You see that? You see that? Do you like Basingstoke? And he goes, fine. Not like Reading, which I love. Anyway, how are you doing, boys? All right? Yeah, not bad. Not bad. Yeah, there's a sort of ongoing sort of trundling of Tottenham Hotspur, sort of like a boulder just slowly sort of moving. Things are happening. Ben Davies has been given a one-year extension on his contract, which is news. Do you have any objections to that, Cal? I don't know if I do. It's no harm, is it? It's no harm. I suppose it kind of feeds into that. What seems to be the theme of the summer so far is experience, isn't it?

2:17And leadership. Like Andy Robertson, Senesai, Ben Davies. all leaders, you know, late 20s, early 30s, you know, guys that have been around and, you know, seen it, done it kind of thing. And I think it's, yeah, it's shoring up that kind of experience. You know, the quotes from Deserby at the end of the season about only trusting 11, 12 players. I'm not sure Ben Davies fit into that because he didn't see him play, did he? Because he obviously had that bad ankle injury. That spoke to him because he made the point, didn't he, about when Romero wasn't there. Yeah, fair point. So yeah, that's what it speaks to for me is that leadership and shorten up that sort of area.

2:57Harry Hotspur:To me, it's almost like they're sort of fixing the errors that were made when we were building the squad under Postacoglu, where he went on Stick to Football with Gary Neville and said, I wanted Neto, I wanted Gaye, I wanted Semenyo. And we ended up with Archie Gray. There's no slight on these players. but Archie Gray and Lucas Baraval and you know players that weren't ready for the first team Matisse Tell, you know, Odebe these are no doubt will have great careers, hopefully at Spurs right but it just it does feel with these signings that they're just trying to fix what the gaping holes that were left under the previous administration and that is obviously Daniel Levy.

3:44Harry Hotspur:Yeah but like Andy Robinson knows the game inside out, has played lower league football with Hull, has won Champions Leagues with Liverpool and League titles with Liverpool. And it kind of feels like they're just bringing these players in, like Sanesi, who's 29. He's now part of the Argentine World Cup squad due to injury. Yeah, he's been brought in. Okay, I thought he was on the list. He wasn't, but then there's been an injury and now he is. You know, keeping Ben Davies on, And it just stinks of mistakes of the past. And I don't mind them rectifying it with free transfers and players that definitely add something.

4:26Harry Hotspur:I mean, both those players add something to Tottenham.

4:30Harry Hotspur:There's nothing wrong with signing these players. It's what we do next is the big question. Do you have any thoughts on the signing of Sanessi and Andy Robinson and Ben Davies getting a new contract? Not really that arsed either way. But the most important part of what you said is what comes next because signing them means nothing if you're not going to sign more players. I don't expect Andy Robertson to be someone that we rely upon a great deal. I mean, his legs have clearly gone. But in terms of his experience, he'll be definitely what the club needs. but I think it's what comes next after signing Robertson and that's more important for me The noise coming out from Liverpool fans is that his legs haven't gone, it's just that he isn't the player that won the league title with them three years ago, I think three years ago there'd be no world where Andy Robinson signs the Spurs now that he's slowing down and they said he hasn't lost a yard of pace.

5:40Harry Hotspur:It's just that he isn't able to do it game in, game out, which effectively is the same thing I'd imagine. But yeah, it's the idea that we might get 30 to 35 games out of him rather than the 55 that Liverpool demanded of him before they signed Kerkhez. So I think it might be a shrewd bit of business. Do you know it's a year ago tomorrow that Thomas Frank was made Tottenham manager. You know what? If there was a world where we could record a podcast and you can only play it once, you can't rewind it, I would like to let rip on him. But obviously there's not a world where that happens. But his PR has to be studied because he should be driven out of the country for what he did to our club.

6:36Harry Hotspur:what did he do wrong what was it what's the most offensive thing he did because he's not he's an inoffensive man as as a person I don't have an issue with him but what he what almost happened mostly under his stewardship is unforgivable man and the thing is the early times were good I mean we looked good against them PSG in that Super Cup game there was also the game against Manchester City where we beat them 2-0 and we just thought well Yeah, so we thought maybe there were some green shoots there. But some of it is the delay in getting rid of him. And I think the mitigating circumstances in that was the new format of the Champions League.

7:20They probably thought that Lightning could strike twice and that a European run could keep him in the job for longer. But I think soon enough, they became evident that he couldn't have stayed on. But yeah, just dreadful. absolutely dreadful and yeah, just awful, awful. It was terrible.

7:42Harry Hotspur:I mean, a year from now I was optimistic when we were doing podcasts with Brentford fans and they were all saying the same thing, that when he was in the Championship, he played a brand of football that was exciting to watch and that he became pragmatic in the Premier League because that's what was needed to keep Brentford in the league. and the transition to Tottenham might show what a great manager he is. And I'm not saying he isn't a good manager, but I don't hold any faith in the fact that he's going to be able to turn around and say Fulham, who might be his next mate. He's been linked with Fulham.

8:16Harry Hotspur:Oh my God. And it just felt wrong. And I think at the time, and maybe hindsight's a beautiful thing, I think at the time I felt, I think I said, I definitely said this is a good appointment. It makes sense. he's going to make more right decisions than he makes wrong but i seem to remember this sort of weird feeling this sort of heavy feeling in my chest when thinking about it just didn't feel right i don't know maybe i'm i'm being too kind to myself that there is any that there was any sort of note of hesitation in my voice probably not maybe sort of looking back i'm i'm sort of projecting what i might have felt yeah but he was rubbish he was you're you are rubbish he was he was shameful and I'm not saying him as a person was shameful to what T just said in terms of like we've got nothing against him as a person he comes across as a lovely human being in football it doesn't matter whether you're lovely or not like there are players that have done horrendous things that have great careers Mason Greenwich is having a great career and done a horrendous thing the case in point T.O.

9:24Harry Hotspur:it's hard to edit around your laughter but you're right I'm right though, aren't I? You can do horrible things in football and survive. The thing is, Flev, you see the good in everything. Yes. And that's an admirable ability because we can just be miserable bastards like me and say, well, no, Andy Robertson's not a good signing because he's not the player he was. But maybe you're saying, well, if we get 30 games out of him, he'll do well. And with Thomas Frank, I can't remember what I said at the time. I thought, well, he seems a safe pair of hands, but I didn't expect him to be that bad. I don't think anyone did.

9:59It's just the timing of getting rid of Postacoglu, who had just won. I was in agreement of getting rid of Postacoglu, and I thought that Thomas Frank might have given us some pragmatism, but he did inherit a very mismatched squad, and that's probably the only thing that I, that's probably the only excuse he has, that the squad was dreadful, that he kind of oversaw.

10:23Harry Hotspur:See, you said something really interesting then, is that like, I think I do do that. I'm really guilty of just trying to find the positive in everything. And I don't think that's healthy. I mean, it's healthy for my mental health, but for acknowledging the reality of the situation, I think maybe sometimes I have my head in the sand because anything that comes in, I won't always spin it positively, which isn't reality, is it? It's the opposite of it. It's sugarcoating or happy clapping your way through difficult situations. and it's but I can't do anything any other way like when people are criticising Savinho I agree with them that he is limited and raw but I'm also quite defensive of the idea that our manager wants him the previous manager wanted him the club want him surely they see something in him so therefore let's latch onto that but maybe what people want to hear is just the median which is there are massive limitations to his game.

11:27Harry Hotspur:Probably we shouldn't be spending£50 million on him when we could spend it on, you know, a passing midfielder, you know, Adam Wharton, for example. I don't know. I just like getting excited about things that are happening. No, I don't think there's anything wrong with that at all. You are, you are, T's right, you are a glass half full kind of guy. And actually, I think I am. I think I, I like to think I am, but I don't think I am. but things are going well says it all really yeah I remember a photo of you someone took of you I mean it might have been Ricky yeah and we'd just been beaten by I don't know it was like Brentford at home or Bournemouth at home or something like that and you had your hands on the on the concrete wall in front of you and I've never seen a man look more fed up and you replicated 90 % of the stadium it was just it perfectly captured you just looked so fed up yeah I think it was last season I think it was it was a no it wasn't last it wasn't the season just been it was the season before and I think it might be Villa or BA might be right it might be Brentford but we'd lost another home game and yeah and I didn't even know Ricky was taking the picture of me it looks like I'm looking right at the camera but I'm just staring into space but I think you do and I think I think we all do that when we sign a player we get a coach we try to find the positive in it right because none of us are really qualified to say if Savino is really any good or not.

12:57Like, I can't remember what game it might have been. Liverpool, I remember him coming on for City and I remember him thinking, he took a minute to get going, but then when he did get going, he was really good. But yeah, like you said, there's got to be something there with him. There has to be kind of a player in there. With Thomas Frank, it was... He was an experienced Premier League coach, but I think with hindsight being 2020, I think he's a terrible coach that worked for a well-run club in Brentford, a very well-run club in Brentford. Keith Andrews has gone in there and done a better job than him.

13:35Thomas Frank is the worst coach in the club's history. And we never see him again. And I think he is a bad person. He's a really bad person. Does horrible things. So, yeah. But we move.

13:50Harry Hotspur:We move. Indeed. Did you see the news today that Fabrizio Romano, he says he understands Tottenham Hotspur manager, De Zerbi sees Pedro Porro as a crucial player in the club. Also don't want to let him leave. This is reports that we're going to receive a bid from Manchester City for Pedro Porro. where are you at with that? Because Pedro Boro has cut a frustrated figure at Spurs. I think we've been frustrated with him this year. But I think we all agree that if we have a player bordering on or at least has attributes of a world-class ability, it's probably him. And that's not to suggest he's anywhere near, you know, world-class.

14:34Harry Hotspur:But in a squad sort of lacking in like very special abilities like Pedro Porro's delivery certainly when you get him into the final third it's just unreal and obviously does everybody want him and to sell him now I think would be a massive mistake so I don't know where are you boys out with Pedro Porro like if would you in any way entertain a bid from Manchester City of say I don't know what he's worth is 50 million more more We paid close to that. Played 45, but at the time, I think it was sort of agreed that we overpaid. Yeah. We were kind of bent over in that negotiation because we wanted him, and Conte was here, and he needed those wingbacks, and he was a perfect wingback.

15:24Harry Hotspur:So I think we, at the time, probably overpaid for him, but right now he's becoming a massive part of this squad and with a happy squad and a happy manager playing a brand of football that they enjoy, it feels like he could be worth more in the future. I can't see him not wanting to join Manchester City if they genuinely bid for him. I don't know. There's no talks about a new contract or anything like that. Where are you at with him, Cal? I love him. I love him. I think he's got that kind of... You know when people say, oh, so-and-so's a winner. That's Pedro Porro. I love it when he celebrates winning a goal kick or winning a throw in when we're 1-0 up with a few minutes to go.

16:08I love all that shit. And he's actually, hopefully we're going to rectify it this summer, but he's one of the few players that we've got in the squad that's really good technically on the ball, really good at using the ball. Do you still worry about his defensive abilities? Yes, yes. Like Somerville carved, he does get carved up by defending. What generally what happens with him is he will start slow. He'll get carved up a couple of times, but then he'll download the data and he'll start to find, he'll start to read the player and he ends up, you know, kind of getting control of the winger. But it's, but it's those first kind of 20 minutes where he will just get skinned and look like he's never played football before.

16:53Yeah. But then usually, yeah, he downloads the data as they say in boxing and he tends to kind of find his way into the game then. but I think deep down he's a wingback. I think that's what he is. But I think under Ang, he became actually a pretty good fullback and I still think he is a very good fullback. And I think we should do everything we can to keep him. I think he's got two years left on his contract. I think him and Van Der Ven sign new contracts this summer. I think they're into Deserby. I can definitely see the pair of them signing new contracts.

17:24Harry Hotspur:These were Van Der Ven's comments after the relegation battle and deserve his expectations. He said, I didn't even go out at one point. I thought, do I actually deserve to do fun things? Which is, that's exactly how fans feel like. If we're getting bad, don't go out to a fucking nightclub. Don't do anything nice, right? You sit there, you eat fucking super noodles, a bit of bread, no butter. You just ram it in there. It's just to get it down your gullet. That's what, you lose a game. That's what I want them to do. And he said, I thought I actually deserved to do, i thought do i actually deserve to defund things maybe you're looking at it in the extreme but you want to turn things around at all costs deservedly literally said this to me i'm going to need you very badly in this period and i'm going to have to rely on you a lot i had i had to become a leader even more even though i am still young when we were safe it literally felt like 100 kilos lighter all the stress was gone right away you felt it t didn't you like when watching him it looked like he was playing either i think i took it as he was disinterested that he'd given up but maybe it wasn't that maybe it was it was the stress load on a young player that you know maybe couldn't cope with it mentally or checked out to some degree it reminds me of um of Jan Vertonghen and I think we got beat 4-0 by Liverpool under Sherwood and there's a picture of him before the game just looking disinterested and disengaged there are some people who just have that demeanour about them and Van de Ven is no different in that sense that he's probably just pissed off as everyone else and when he got sent off against Palace he didn't seem to care at that point even though it probably cost us the game and you know I think with his relationship with De Zerbe looks strong, looks good.

19:21And I look forward to seeing what he does in the coming seasons. I agree with Cal, I think a new contract is loading. And I'm also interested to see what the team looks like next season under De Zerbe, because I think he picked players who he knew he could depend on, who knew he had experience and could get us through the six or seven games that he managed. I think he might have picked a different team if we were safe. So for example, maybe Archie Greer and Berg van Maart have got more minutes, for example. So it would be interesting to see what happens next season. But I think van der Ven kind of just got his head down once De Zerbe came in because he came out from suspension and he was almost seamless.

20:05He was a captain and didn't really put a foot wrong, just quietly got on with it. And I guess with defenders, when they have good games, they're not often given all the credit. if they're not making match, if they're not doing a match save and tackles. They're just like getting on with their job, just being steady and that's what he did in those games and he was, he was, can't say an unsung hero because we all know what he's about but he was low-key, very good in those seven games and did to Serby.

20:31Harry Hotspur:What do you make of how we've set up this season? We did a podcast with Harry Brooks on the lab and we talked about like the incomings, the signings of the ones we've mentioned, Sanessi Robertson, the incoming potentially of Savinho and you know the players coming in based on what it means for our squad, whether Paulinho would be signed. How do you think we set up next year? If we've got that many centre-backs, if we buy Van Hecker as well even if Romero leaves, we're absolutely stacked and I'm wondering if potentially De Zerbi is planning for a back three which would leave room for Vuscovic to come into it for example I think back four is is where we're comfortable but he talked about the flexibility to Zerbi of of um of uh of Sanetti and saying you know the various positions he can play in and the flexibility it gives that maybe he wants to be fluid maybe he wants to be regimented whatever it might be there there is opportunity to um to experiment and for him to experiment in the way you want Spurs to set up this season but it just it does seem strange that we just we're we are loading the back line with quality you know you got i i if van hecker signs and it feels like he will what what is our best back to um and moreover does it give us an opportunity to play a back three do we play van der ven at left back i can't see i know that's just been what what do you mean what what's been said like what do you mean i can't imagine him doing it but you think about over the last three four years you know the best two teams have been arsenal and city and both of those clubs for a time not totally but for a time would play four center backs when he didn't when when guardiola didn't have o'reilly he definitely played guardiola as a left back okay played left back as well and uh mosquera played left back uh you had ben white playing right back yeah tell the fury as well yeah there's so there might be something in that where he goes, hmm, maybe I'll start playing Van de Ven at left back.

22:44Because he plays there for Holland, doesn't he? He plays at left back for Holland. Does he? Yeah, he has it. Multiple times he's played there, you know, for Holland. So, I think, I think, oh, that's really, because if you've got, even if you've got Van de Ven, Senesai, and Van Hek, into a two, you know, or Sanessi, like, Sanessi hasn't signed for us to sit on the bench and to be a backup, has he? He's come to play. so maybe we are going to play a free I've got I'm weird I've got a little soft spot for a little free at the back I love a little free at the back I just think there's something I think Conte played it maybe maybe in you know my formative years of watching football Glenn Hoddle played it with England there's something about free at the back it's kind of a bit sexy a little bit you know it's a bit continental I kind of like it so I wouldn't mind seeing us play as a free obviously under Pochettino for a good amount of his tenure we played free at the back so maybe that's maybe that's the way we're going

23:40Harry Hotspur:I think it's kind of, and I've been listening to Harry Brooks a lot and, you know, his idea that there aren't really positions in the conventional sense, like having three at the back with four in midfield and three up top, that these players are interchanging their roles completely. And, you know, Paulini did that against Everton where I don't think he was trusted to receive the ball in midfield. So we'd take up the position of the, almost like a, we went to a sort of back three where Paulini was sort of a, sort of a hybrid central defensive midfielder, but also the left side of the fence. And then a doggy or wherever fullback it was would receive the ball in midfield.

24:23Harry Hotspur:that it's, I think we're going to be way more fluid and less rigid than we've been this season. I just, I'm quite excited to see it. And Van Venn does play left back for Netherlands and Koeman. I think he's, I think he's probably more of a left back to be honest. Sometimes he can't be relied upon. I think he might be a bit rash to be centre back and the misgivings I've always had about him is that a lot of those last-inch tackles are because of his poor positioning in the first place. It feels that, I mean, and Karl Walker was the same early, more so early on in his career that he doesn't have to have good positioning because he knew he could make the ground up.

25:01And I don't know, I mean, Randevend's on his third manager, well, fourth, if you include Tudor now. So it's been, it's been tough for a lot of these players. How many managers have played under, how many systems have played under. So it's difficult to know where these players are. You know, are they, because I might think that Randevend's left back maybe next season proves that he's one of the best centre-backs in the league. Who knows? Because I think Prostokogli was someone who did kind of rely on Van Leven's pace an awful lot. And there were concerns from all of us about his hamstrings when he came back, but he seemed, I don't think he's had many injuries in the last season or so.

25:41So maybe it's about just not playing such a high line with him, not just relying on him to make these challenges to keep him fit, really.

25:53Harry Hotspur:let's go to the questions because it is Q &A Thursday boy with hat he says Flav the fighting cock empire was built on sex was it? was it? is that reality? was it built on sex? where's he going with this? okay yeah okay with various mums drugs and rock and roll and the occasional racism and sexism that's unfair sexism yeah yeah yeah racism no

26:31Harry Hotspur:no racism no none of that it says occasional racism accidental do you think maybe yeah okay let's move I don't know why we're hanging on this most of the worst most of the worst of that is now behind the paywall that would suggest that if you're on that it still exists, that there is issues, problematic culture. Now that you're going legit and interviewing people from the club and Steve Nash, do you regret how you built your empire?

27:07Harry Hotspur:I don't forget a fucking thing. I don't forget a fucking thing, T. Not a single minute. Absolutely nothing. Absolutely not. The double champ does that. no I mean there probably would be an opportunity like maybe you'll be able to engineer a situation where you would get a great interview and what has been said previously will hinder that but generally people forget what you've said unless it's really really bad people forget and we've not been without our own controversies have we tea tea for years I've grown we've all grown we've all grown no no it's all good it's all good he says P.S. if you miss the old days and want to hear racist flab racist flab racist flab racist flab go behind the paywall and he said the link patreon.com pause that fine cock nice it's a good sales pitch if you want to hear yeah if you want to hear me being racist go you can pay for that privilege uh no no i think that people like steve nash um who did the pod they did it he did it rather because he he listens to the pod and appreciates exactly what it is which isn't racist or sexist actually it's just blokes having a bloody good laugh you can't have a bloody good laugh while you are just innocent men just innocent men just normal men that that is true though isn't it this is like like normal men they're just normal men are they're in the pub having a beer they might say something a little bit risky they wake up with dread and they ring their mate and go i'm sorry about what i said yesterday i'd had too much to drink and then it's over there you go um yes uh but yeah and the idea of sort of interviewing Daniel Levy after what we said about him and Ricky.

29:10Harry Hotspur:It's just never going to happen, is it? So do I regret it? No, because the opportunity of interviewing Daniel Levy is almost impossible. The fun we've had with that story with Ricky, that naked Ricky in a travel lodge, you can't beat that. That's a gift. It's a gift from Ricky. And people like Steve Nash love the pod because of that stuff, not in spite of it. You know, that's the piece. There was a moment when people wouldn't have known and I think we wanted, like I said, we were talking about, sort of, I think I introduced the idea that my dad had a VHS tape full of porn and he'd written in chalk on it, sex.

29:53Harry Hotspur:Sex. Yeah, I don't know. It's all he had at hand, T. And I think, I don't know what, if I saw it, or if you saw it, but I think Steve Nash's eyes lit up at that moment. Yes, this is what I want. There you go. Yeah. I think people kind of listen to it just to see what we'll say next. There's none of the predictability where you just kind of, you know, we are habitual line steppers and that's part of the fun of it, really. I mean, if you lose out on interviews, then I think the good outweighs are bad. Fuck your couch. Exactly. Fuck y 'all. Not all of you. Odd Volume 158, it says, what player in the squad or football in general do you hate for absolutely no reason?

30:44Harry Hotspur:I fucking hate Declan Rice. I've got to be honest. I just fucking hate him. He's a performative mug. Like that bit when, you know, I think when Arsenal were playing Palace and we were playing Everton and West Ham were playing Leeds. And somehow, I don't know how this happens, Declan. right if you are listening to this you fucking prick like you're standing and you're watching the screen in the stadium where you've just won the league title and you've lifted your trophy and you're doing all your sort of wanky shit and now you suddenly care about little old west am you abandon you abandon for your own and the same way that you abandon island you abandoned your country nice because the opportunity was better and obviously the opportunity to play for arsenal is better for west am and what did you do you ran as quickly as you could you ran as quickly as you fucking could to play for that club because you fought and as it appears your world your dreams are going to come true but don't fuck it don't patronize the west am support by going I actually give a shit now I'm gutted gutted you lot are down do you think they would have gone down with you in their midfield how gutted are you Declan how gutted are the Irish people when you play for them in their shirt and you let them down not only that you betrayed do you know how much they fucking hate us they hate us they fucking loathe us and you couldn't give a shit and you went do you know what I thought I wouldn't get in the England squad now I can fuck your entire country and your people that's what he was doing so yeah I don't know how strongly I put that but yeah I hate Declan Rice he's a bellend

32:39it was Andy Robertson for me he plays for us now so I can't really hate him anymore what did you just like about him? he's always a cunt didn't he get sent off he got sent off a couple of times as well just being a cunt