S15E88 - The Vuskovic Conundrum

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0:30today and most of it centered surprisingly around a potential move between Brighton and Tottenham and our young wonder kid center back Vuscovic the report has come out that Brighton are willing to offer Tottenham 30 to 35 million euros which is around 25 million maybe it's 20 maybe it's 30 million pound um and it's it's a bit perplexing because you're like we've got hold of probably the most in-demand center back in europe if not the world um we identified him when he was 16 playing in croatia i think he was at hadjuk split it might even be in a lesser team than hadjuk split i can't remember uh and now it looks like if the noise is to be believed and And at the time of recording, it's just a bid that's come in.

1:25And if you believe, and you should believe, Ornstein, because he never reports anything that he hasn't completely fact-checked, Vyskavich wants to go to Brighton after speaking with the Brighton manager. Yeah. Which would lead you into a thinking, like typically you go, well, how has he even had a conversation with the Brighton manager if Spurs aren't willing to facilitate the move? What are your initial thoughts on it, Cal? When I first saw it, I was like, this isn't right. This is not what we do. We buy. We buy your players. You don't buy ours. Who do you think you are? But then I saw it and I thought 30 million is nowhere near enough.

2:10It doesn't feel right, does it? No, it's nowhere near enough. But you know what? That was my first thought. My first thought was how dare you. My second thought was that's nowhere near enough money. And my third thought was, that's really fucking smart from Brighton because we want Van Heek. From September the 1st, whenever the transfer window ends, he's worth absolutely nothing. You know, he might get 10 million from in January, May. In January, but really, yeah. His value absolutely plummets from the end of the summer transfer window. So they're not really in a great bargaining position. but then they've gone, oh, why don't we do this?

2:50And then suddenly their bargaining position gets a whole lot stronger because they have a proven record of developing players and selling them to big clubs. Which for him is perfect. He wants to play football. And that's probably his thinking of coming to Tottenham was the same thing. He probably viewed Tottenham in a similar vein of, I'll go to Tottenham, I'll play there for a couple of years and then I'll go to Barcelona or Real Madrid or whatever. That seems to be his aim. And I think he knows that if he goes to one of those clubs now, he's not going to play. He's going to be in the same situation that he's in at Tottenham.

3:23And De Zerbe wants players ready now. We don't have European football. We don't have Europa League or Conference League, which would be perfect for someone like him to be bloodied. And he wants to play. And I kind of get it. I do. There's a lot of players. It's a really complicated situation. I don't remember that. Certainly Spurs ever been in a situation like this, but I don't remember a player who is 19 years old who is desperate to play football. And to his credit, and weirdly, I don't hate any of this really. It kind of all makes sense to a certain degree. I don't want to lose him. I'd much rather Brighton, the move to Brighton, which is a perfect move for his development, be a lone one, perhaps with an option to buy maybe but i wouldn't want to sell him now but it could be he has had conversations with the club his agents had conversations with club and with the zerbi and gone i want to play next year this is i want to play for tottenham next year romero is going to be sold i think we all know that is a fact now so if romero is going to be sold, there is a place for Vuscovic to take.

4:40And he wants it. And he's 19 and he's ambitious and he wants to be playing in the Premier League. And from De Zerbi's point of view, he might think you're not ready, which could well be true, right? Being a good defender or great defender he was named in the bundesliga team of the year uh for hamburg is not the same as leading the line for tottenham osbore in the premier league it just isn't it isn't romero's won a world cup and he struggled doing it so i can imagine a conversation where he's going well if i'm not going to play i need i need to i need to go to a club where i am going to play and brighton is the perfect environment for him to do that i think deserve he potentially is also in the right decision to go we want brighton's center back van hecker who um along with cc uh senisi in terms of progressive passes and accurate passes from center backs are among the very best in fact there are only two or three um defenders that can hold light to both of them um dean house and a gentleman called boss gagly right rings a bell but i should know but i don't know so i think from deserve his point of view he's looking at vucevic can do these things well he could defend really well he's great in the air his physicality is brilliant he's dominant in both boxes but in the style of football that i'm trying to develop in the system i'm and develop i need sanessi and i need van hecker i don't at this moment need vuscovic but but we're all as fans know that we've got this super hot talent and to let him go at this stage just feels it goes against the grain doesn't it yeah yeah it's it it's we're in such an unusual position because we finished 17th again and i think deserve he's come in saved us from relegation and then has gone, right, I've saved you.

6:49Thanks for the bonus, whatever. But now I want to build a team to win. Like we've got no Europe. We can attack the league and the domestic cups, but we can attack the league and really have a go and try and finish in a Champions League places. Give me players now that can do that now and go and attack the domestic competitions with no Europe and free midweeks to play with and use that training. So give me players now. I don't want fucking prospects. And we've gone so heavy on prospects under Langer in the last four or five years that he's probably looked at it and gone, well, you've bought me, I've taken over the team.

7:25I've got this squad. He's looked at Bereval, Gray and Saar and not played any of them. He's played Ben Sankor and Paulinha and they're the players. Both of them played really well towards the end of the season and helped keep us up. He's thinking, I don't want any more kids. I've got loads of kids. Give me ready-made players now. And Vizcovic is probably looking at it. I get it. I totally get it from everyone's point of view, actually. Now, I guess now it's up to our kind of board what the right thing to do is. I think from a fan's perspective, it's he signs a new contract and perhaps goes out on loan somewhere, but I don't think he wants that.

7:57If we sell him, I think, you know, I think, again, the best scenario is some sort of buyback clause or some sort of really massive sell-on clause, like 40%, something like that kind of thing. It would have to be that. It would have to be, if it's as low as£30 million, then the buyout would have to be something around 30 % to 40%. Because then you are securing his value to Tottenham. We're not getting to see him play in a lily white shirt, which is unfortunate. But like you say, I think if his plan is always, his plan is to play for Barcelona, Real Madrid, Manchester City, or teams that are unfortunately at this stage, a much bigger draw than Tottenham.

8:39We're a draw to young players that want to develop their craft. And then Vyskovic, Baraval, Gray, we're a great playground for these kids to develop in. But things have changed and things have shifted. Langer's influence was probably nowhere near as great as it was and De Zerbi's influences become significant. We know that the Dortmund sporting director who was supposed to take over from Langer or at least be in a joint role with Langer has, according to reports, got cold feet on the role because he thinks that Deserby has more control over the squad development and squad structure and recruitment than would essentially put a sporting director redundant.

9:28I think they really have given Deserby keys to the castle. And weirdly, Langer kind of fits in that because he is passive, he is a wallflower, he'd probably be okay in that environment just to get on with his job. He hasn't been able to create a culture at a football club, has he? He's not been able to do that. So there is this area that the Zerbe can take over. And from the board's perspective, regardless of the feelings of the supporters, from the board's perspective, what what what's the correct thing to do here if the zerby saying i need van hecker i need for bergen um the uh boss kagli actually is a brighton player as well he's left center back who uh only played 11 games in the premier league 12 games in the premier league last year but is a similar sort of profile to sanessi and and uh and van hecker but yeah it just i just wonder what the best thing to do from their perspective because from a pr perspective it isn't a good look selling buscovic to brighton but they have to placate and accept the zerby's demands if we assume that that is what's happening that the derby is saying i need these three players i need for bergen who has an incredible relationship by all accounts with van hecker as a brighton backline.

10:53And Van Dijk is what, 26? Yeah. It's like prime years, right? And the three of them are Dutch. You've essentially got the Dutch international potentially defensive unit. The trio, yeah. If you remove Van Dijk. Yes, I just wonder what, what did the Lewis family do and what does Langer do in this situation, do you think? Do you think they need to come out and give us a statement? I feel like we need to understand why they're willing to give up Vyskiewicz. Yeah, I think if they sell him, I think what's kind of popular in modern kind of football transfers is it's all very quiet. It's just we've agreed to transfer to Brighton.

11:37Whereas I think if they do some sort of deal where it's like a big sell on percentage or a buyback clause or whatever, they have to make that public as well. They can't just go, oh, we've agreed to deal. Like it has to be like, no, we've agreed the deal, but we've future-proofed ourselves, i.e. we have matching rights, we have a buyback clause, we have, you know, we have, we get 40 % of a sell-on, we get all of like, this is what we've done to future-proof ourselves against this. And also here's Van Hecker. Like, do you know what I mean? Like let's get the good news in there first as well. Like we've also bought their goalkeeper and we've bought Van Hecker.

12:16The only way that Brian would be able to entertain this conversation, you'd think, is if they understand and they're willing to say, and they understand, you know, you've heard Paul Barber talk often about the importance of selling players at the right time and their right value. And that helps us rebuild and their recruitment is sensational. the fact that this has come out that Vuzkovic is open to the move but is also, like I said earlier you know, we're probably open to letting him go in this moment because it makes it easier to sign their goalkeeper and their main centre-back like would imagine you're sort of trying to work for De Zerbe and he's saying Van Hecker is exactly the defender I need I've played with him I've used him before I know what he's about.

13:08And essentially, I know that he can do what I need the players to do. And Vucevic can't. No matter how good he is at certain aspects, he isn't Van Hecker. In the same way, Van Hecker isn't Vucevic. Is it, would you in that moment go, okay, we need to do what you need? Because if they deny him in this moment, then this could cause a problem.

13:37Yeah, I think you have to give De Zerbi what he wants, don't you? He wants Van Hecker and he wants the goalkeeper. We were both just yesterday talking about how we think Kinski should keep the shirt, right? But the Brighton goalkeeper is an upgrade, isn't he? He's a world-class goalkeeper. Yeah, and I think you've got to give him what he wants. It's 23. And it's up to the board to secure the best possible deal. And all we've heard all week is like the Van Hecker deal is going to happen before their World Cup, basically before Holland's World Cup campaign starts. Because Van Hecker wants it done before he kicks the ball for Holland, which is fair enough.

14:19And it's like they've gone all... And what was actually this morning was that it was like a part exchange kind of thing. It was like, well, all right, you can have Van Hecker for this. The money's nowhere near enough. It's nowhere near... Like 30 million is nowhere near enough. You could even do a fucking complete swap, to be honest. Just because the value of Vizcovic is so much higher than a player with one year on his contract. Yeah, on transfer marks, he's rated as 60 million euros, which is not generally that... The company that values, finds value for football players, they're generally not far off.

14:51And they've got him at 60 million euros. I think Van Hecker is the same. I think we should be looking at a swap of similar value. it doesn't have to be exactly the same but yeah we get a percentage obviously as well just because he's so much younger that's value as well so if it's 30 million plus 40 % that in fact in the grand scheme of things means that we're getting more from Vuscovic than we would have paid for Van Hecker yeah yeah yeah is there a world where you go you don't buy Van Hecker he has a year left you go we'll see you in a year you keep Vizcovic for a year you sign him to a new contract and see how he does and if he doesn't do a or if he does amazing and then Madrid come in we'll go and they go here's you know someone comes some massive club comes in and goes here's 100 million we'll go alright Van Hecker on a Bosman in a year and we'll take 100 million and he goes I know it's kind of complicated and a lot of moving advice there but it's not a bad shout I just think this all comes down to what Deserby what kind of players Deserby wants I think we all want Veskvi to stay I think we all accept that he isn't going to start for Tottenham next year if Romero is there or Van Hecker's there he doesn't start and he he obviously is demanding to start it's no good for his development to sit on the bench at Tottenham it just ain't which is weird because when we were talking about this in the WhatsApp brief earlier we're all kind of weirdly understanding of the situation.

16:33Typically, we'll be furious, but it's like he wants to play, demands to play. If he can be used as a mate weight to get in an established and capable Premier League player who we don't know that Vuskavic is anywhere near that, despite his reputation, he may be, he may well be. And given his playing style, he's much more suited to a defensive unit rather than one that plays out from the back. um you know by the same taken that would essentially what Brighton would want to do as well so maybe you're wrong about that but it just it all kind of feels like yeah I think we are getting at this moment Van Hecker is a better defender than Vuscovic he's just not as fashionable he's not in vogue the world isn't going crazy about him because he's 19 years old but if I had to trust one if we weren't going to go buy Van Hecker and we're selling Romero and Vuscovic starts as our right-sided centre-back.

17:31Yeah. What would you rather do? Would you rather Van Hecker or keep Vuscovic in the hope that he does well? I don't think we can think like that. No. I don't think we're big enough football club to put a demand on Vuscovic if he wants to leave, saying you're not leaving. You can go on loan, but you're staying. Yeah. I don't know. I don't know what this is complicated. It is. And you do kind of understand it from his perspective. Like he's thinking, I want to play now. There's top clubs that want to buy me. And we finished 17th two years in a row. So even though we're a much bigger club than Brighton.

18:13Yeah. And Richard and all that shit. In terms of status, he probably looks at us as about the same. Even though we're not the same, we're that tier above. yeah he looks at it like well no you were supposed to be my development club and you're not developing me so I want to go to the development club now and knowing that they will sell me because that's what Brighton do they'll play me and they'll sell me to the bigger club so I do get I do get it from his perspective I had said I just had the strangest thought that when we try to sign Verbruggen the goalkeeper they're going to go how about that Louis Bereval you got no not again they'll be like oh he's not been playing very much sorry to interrupt the podcast but we have to because the fun cock is sponsored by salie so if you're traveling soon you don't have to get caught out without data salie is the e-sim app from creators of nordvpn giving you instant affordable mobile internet in over 190 countries No waiting at airport kiosks, no sketchy sim sellers, no being charged by EE£7.99 a day.

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19:55Fuck off. Stop doing that. We've bought these kids for us. Because he's not playing much either. And we're going to be looking at trying to buy a Parsi midfielder, aren't we? You know, they might come back and do it again. But yeah. What do you think this says about the way we're operating? If we're willing to sell, that's something that definitely wouldn't happen under Daniel Levy, I don't think. we're selling players if it does happen you're selling players for good value at the right time there is something going on at Spurs I don't think it's 100 % comfortable with it but there's definitely something going on with a football club we're operating in a way that we haven't done recently it's quite decisive isn't it they want you know they want Van Eker they go for him they want Savinho apparently they're going for him although that's going a bit quiet like there is a decidedness in the World Cup summer it's really hard to sign players but typically and we're trying to get as much I mean the World Cup started now but as much business done like I watched a bit of a podcast with Jamie Vardy and Arsenal and Arsene Wenger came in for him I think just after they won the league they came in for him and they and he had just gone away with England to, it was either a World Cup or Euros and his agent said Arsenal are in for you, they want to buy you and he said to his agent I'm away on international duty, can we just pick this up after the you know, after we're done because he wants to concentrate on England and like two days later during camp he, Arsene Wenger put in a bid to Leicester and Arsenal put in a bid to Leicester to try and sign him.

21:46And it got to the point where he, you know, had to mull over whether or not he wanted to join Arsenal. And three days later, he said, I'm not leaving Leicester, I'm staying. Even though he was offered a really, he was explaining exactly his role at the club and what he'd be doing and how the team would be suited to him. And he said, no, I'm not leaving. But during the World Cup, you had, you know, we always talk about other players whispering in other players' ears to convince them to join. Jack Wilshere said, are you coming to Arsenal? He was talking to him openly, are you coming to Arsenal? And JB Vardy was frustrated at that.

22:23He was like, I just want to be left alone. I just want to concentrate on England. I'm getting all this shit from Arsenal players and Arsene Wenger who wouldn't leave me alone. So I'm just saying it's quite difficult to do business. I think we've been proactive in the first few weeks of the transfer window being open. Where are we? We're like 12 of June. Yeah, it's been over 12 days. It's mad that we've... And we were already working before De Zerbe even turned up. So I don't know how much work can be done during the World Cup season, but we want to buy two of the players, you know, centre-backs and a goalkeeper for Holland.

23:09I kind of feel very comfortable with what's happening at the moment. I think they're decisive and I think that's a good thing. I think that's what people want to see, isn't it? And, you know, does that be said after the last game, you know, well, I'll maybe not even celebrate, but I'll enjoy that we've stayed up for an hour and then we're getting at it. And it's very true, isn't it? We're getting straight into it. And I guess, I think, yeah, I think it's a real opportunity for us next season. I think it really is. if we've got money and you know there was talk of the another 100 million going in as a cash injection I think there's an opportunity for us to with this top coach and the no I keep going about no Europe but it's such a fucking advantage it's huge you look at Man United they finished 15th or whatever it was and then they finished third with Michael Carrick in charge and that's because they were aggressive they were aggressive in the transfer market they bought attacking players and they attacked the league and I think this is such an opportunity and I think you know if there's any brains at that football club you can see an opportunity we've got this top coach who the existing players have bought into right let's go and buy him some attacking you know buy him the defenders he wants maybe a new goalkeeper and then go and buy some attacking players and you can really have a go and you just don't know what will happen win the league yeah I mean yeah like you say it's an opportunity without Europe we could potentially have a really really good season and Pedro Porro appears to be going nowhere.

24:37He's going to sign a new contract and he'll be one of the biggest paid, the highest paid players at the football club. If you imagine wages, you've got Conor Gallagher who reportedly is on 200. Porro will probably end up being on a similar amount. 201. He has to get paid more than Conor Gallagher just out of principle, really. But again, you understand it. I do worry that suddenly we're breaking the wage barrier, but we're breaking it on players that we've already got. I want to break the wage barrier, but I want to do it if we're signing someone like Victor Osserman, where it's completely broken, like 500 grand a week as we discussed a couple of episodes back on the fighting call.

25:13This is a good thing if Pedro Porras stays. And in the last 12 months, I've said the opposite to this. And I remember a stat that he lost the ball 47 times again. Yes, I remember that. It's Hanworth.

25:28But, yeah, I mean, that's important that the players are not leaving us you know they're not leaving in their droves they're buying into it you know Romero it feels like it's going to happen but Van der Ven wants to stay and potentially sign a new contract um I don't yeah what do you make of the Poro the fact that Poro's like I do know what Alistair Gold I think posted something like Van you know that Poro and um Van der Ven are going to sign you know they're looking to tie them down and he's actually I know he spams a lot but generally doesn't really post news unless he's kind of sure about it.

26:02And I remember seeing that early in the summer. And yeah, I always kind of felt that Poro would stay. And actually what he said was interesting because they even asked him and he said, I've got a contract. And you don't really hear that these days. Players are always like, well, you know, we'll see after the World Cup. He was like, no, I've got a contract. And I love that when he kind of said that when they asked him about Real Madrid and City and all of that. And he was just like, no, I've got a contract at Tottenham. And I really liked that. I thought that was really good. Yeah, I think he's, yes, there's flaws there, but he does have that fucking horrible bastard kind of winning mentality about him.

26:37And if we get him and Van der Ven tied down and then get some other established players in as well, we could have a really good season, I think. Yeah, definitely. I'm sort of, I feel comfortable with it. I don't want Vizcu to leave, but I do feel like there seems to be a plan in place. And I think a lot of it comes from the Zerbi. Do you have any issue with De Zerbe going, you know, like, I know everyone's excited by it, but he just isn't right for our system, like Vizcovic, and if we have to let him go, we have to let him go. Hamburg finished for, it's a, Hamburg, Hamburg is, you know, his performance at Hamburg, obviously he looks great, Vizcovic, and there's a reason all these top clubs are kind of circling around and looking at him, but he has just done it at Hamburg, which is, the Bundesliga is a fucking terrible league, and they finished 13th.

27:26Yeah. So it's not like they're a shit team. And maybe it might have been a case of he looked good in a very, very shit team.

27:38So I don't want to lose him because he looks like he could be a brilliant player. But if he's not ready and he wants to go and play football somewhere, we're ready to go now. It might be a case of Deserbys like, I don't want any more prospects. I'm ready to run now. I don't want to walk. I want to run now. And it's too, it's, you know, the immovable object against the irresistible force. It's, well, I want to play football. It's like, well, you're not quite ready. Maybe you do have to let the kid go, but it has to suit us. Final bit of news is that Tottenham to play behind closed doors game for De Zerbi to assess players in transfer window.

28:23So the ones that stay are going to be playing a game on July 22nd as part of their pre-season preparations with the World Cup pushing the start of the Premier League back to August 22nd. Deserve his first-team players are not expected back to pre-season work until the end of the second week of July for early medical and physical work before getting on the pitch fully at the beginning of the week, starting July 13th. So there's going to be an assessment there. I think the idea of a return of Maddison Kulisevsky and Mohamed Kudus to that front line. We legitimately could look like a different outfit next season when our aspirations could be through the roof.

29:04Can you imagine Kudu? You know, he's still our top assist maker. Still. He hasn't played for seven months. Wow. He's got six. Yeah. I saw Matt Law said that he was going to be fit for the start of the season, that he doesn't need surgery or anything, that he's going to be fit for the start of the season. And it's like, he's going to, I think I agree with you. I think he's massive. Madison is, you know, he clearly wasn't fit towards the end of the season, but now he's got three months to have a little rest, but then actually really get fit for the start of the season. Would you make him my captain?

29:36James Madison, yes. Yes. I think Spooky put it really well the other day when we all met up. He said, I think James Madison really wanted to go and play for a big club. Like he wanted to play for, he wasn't a boyhood Spurs fan or anything like that, but he really wanted to come and play for a big club. And I think he'd have felt this way whatever big club he'd have come to. But he's come to Tottenham and he's really bought in. I've never heard a footballer talk the way he talks. I think he's a brilliant... It was really odd the way... I know Rory's doing a bit, but the way they were talking about him, that guy, Adam, whatever his name is, the Man United guy, called him a cretin.

30:19And it was just like, that's so harsh. Like he speaks better than pretty much every other football. Like he's such a good speaker. And he was just the same at Leicester. I remember he would talk about, well, you can't get away with not pressing in a Brendan Rodgers team. You don't hear footballers speak like that, like human beings. They're media trained to fuck. And I'm always, I'm sometimes quite jealous about the way NBA players speak. They get to speak so openly with so much personality and so much character. And I think Madison's such a great speaker. and he talks about the club in such a way that, like a fan almost, and we know he's not a fucking boyhood fan, but he has, he's really bought in, he's really bought in and you can just see he's just so happy to be at what is a massive football club and he's bought into it all the way.

31:05Yeah, it just, it just like even when he was talking about the Zerby coming in, after we stayed up and he did the interview in the mix zone and he just talks like a normal human being. like whereas and I get why you know big big players are protected and they're trained to answer a question not to give information just to not get themselves in trouble the way James Madison talks it's like he didn't need that training like he's perfect for it and it's I think it's a shoo-in that he'll be our captain and so it should be yeah definitely definitely I think like a bat line they've got for a bargain is it Verbruggen I think it's Verbruggen yeah Verbruggen Van Hecker I don't know who starts out Van de Ven or Sanessi if you're looking at the statistics around each of those two players play you'd think that Sanessi would be a better fit for for Zerbied and Van de Vaart sorry Van de Ven but also Zerbied has said that Van de Ven is the best left-sided centre-back in the league so maybe he He sees that he can play that way.

32:21But if he can't, we have Sanessi there. Then is it Andy Robinson on the left? Or does a doggy start? We're talking like August 22nd, first game of the season. It's probably Andy Robinson. Probably a doggy because Italy haven't gone to the World Cup and Scotland have. All right, a doggy. And then I don't think it feels like if we would have really, really desperately wanted Paulinho it would have happened so if it isn't Paulinho it will be the six we sign Adam Warren yeah I mean that would be a dream um and then you've got midfield of Gallagher and Madison yeah and then on the right is Kudus you can't underestimate how good a player he is he's very good yeah and then on the left you have Savino maybe potentially or Tell and then three minutes Solanke I think that's definitely easily a top 10 side before it even starts before you even add the Zerbi to the mix and what we could gain from it if those players start clicking and I know you kind of get people get obsessed by you know players through the door we have underperformed so significantly Secondly, with the level of quality that we have, it is ridiculous that we should have even been in a situation where we're finishing 17th twice.