S16E05 - Becoming De Zerbi's Team

0:00This podcast is part of the Sports Social Podcast Network. It's the fighting.

0:09It's the fighting. Cock. It's the fighting. It's the fighting. Cock. I can't do it. No. All right, John boy, how you doing? All right, mate. All right, I'm sweating. in i thought i'd acclimatized to this heat because i kind of i went away to hotter country even hotter countries than this powered by salie powered by salie yeah it was like straight in there right away straight away this podcast is sponsored by salie off the bat go on where'd you go since i got off the plane i was like i just need to check what the temperature is and i thought well i can't do that without eating into my data so they get saying yeah so the link is in the description below.

0:52We're 29 seconds in and the read is already done. Boom. Do you want to save money when you go on Lollie? Do you want to waste all your money on data? No. Do you want to support the Fighting Cock? Yes. If you want to support the Fighting Cock, sign up to Saley, save yourself money, and you're away. Everyone's going on Lollie at the moment. Do it. Exactly. It's not hard, is it? It's not hard, is it? Just download Saley, sign up, get 15 % off, use the Fighting Cock code at checkout. Right, John, yeah, so you're not a climber. Yeah, I thought, because I went to Croatia and it was boiling. It was like hotter than here.

1:26Beautiful place. Lovely. It's the best. If you've never been to Croatia, just go. I think Rii, my wife, I think she thought it was going to be, she'd never been to Croatia. And I think in her head growing up, all she'd ever seen of that region of the world was basically like the Bosnian War. Yeah. I think in her head, when I was like, because I was surprised her, I was like, we're going to go to Croatia. I think she was like, oh, fuck. Like, are we going to go in some sort of UN envoy? but are we gonna be all right and i was like you know it's like really nice there she's like i just can't imagine it right she just never looked like i told her not to look it up just let's just go there yeah and i think it completely phased her how just beautiful it is and how like amazing the people are and the food and everything about it's amazing i don't like coaches john right i feel like i'm at a stage in my career and my age where i don't have to get on a coach with loads of other sure all right last thing i want is slow it's hot it's shit coaches are shit right no hands down the shittiest version of public transport apart from a london bus um and i i i sat there as we went from the plit fits lakes great amazing place by the way so national what do you call it national garden no national national parks national park uh it's full of clear water and there are like the Japanese tourists love it.

2:44All right. So if you're into Japanese people and beautiful, clear water in Petrosin. And you don't want to go to Japan, go there. Yeah. I mean, yeah, yeah. You're half, I mean, you're not even Japan so far away. Anyway. So, um, yeah, yes. We're from Plifix lakes down to Zadar, which is a South in Croatia as we, there will be Spurs chat soon, but down to Zadar, which is about halfway down Croatia and split in Dubrovnik, Dubrovnik are lower down. And that's where most of the fighting went. But when we went through what went on, but when we went on this coach, mate, the memorials and the sort of walls are peppered with bullets and stuff like that.

3:22It's all still there, but set amongst some of the most beautiful countryside in the world. I rate English countryside. I do. I think it's some of the most amazing. I think we have one of the most beautiful countries on earth. However, it pales into insignificance compared to Croatia and Switzerland. Those two places are like a dream. Yeah, next level. anyway yeah um Croatia was good though because when I was there we spoke a lot about you know ex-spurs players and there is a big creation uh well Luka Modric one of the greatest footballers of all time uh Vuscovic Cranchar you've got you know like other sort of uh what's his name Chorluka yeah so it was quite good because when I was talking to like the cabbies or people in restaurants stuff because the world cup was on they'd be like I'll watch your team and I'm like Spurs and then they just reel them off and I was like yes this is good we've got common ground now I'm going to chuck a Radek Churnian now.

4:09I have no idea. Is he Croatian? I think he's not. No, I think he's from Czech Republic. Who cares? Who cares? People get things wrong. He could be Croatian. He could be. Can I just say, John, you're going to get a few things wrong on this podcast because I have devised the hardest Archie Gray quiz on Earth. Look, this isn't a test of your knowledge on Archie Gray. There's two of us here. I know the answers you don't. If there's anyone listening who can get more than one out of the six questions I'm going to ask John about Archie Gray later, you have done very well but it is multiple choice so you do have a chance anyway Tottenham Hotspur beat Chelsea at the weekend in a feisty affair we're not going to go into the ins and outs of the game we're going to talk about some of the takeaways from it because everyone else has done it already and we were a day late from recording our podcast but feisty and it begs the question should we be playing Chelsea should we be playing Arsenal should we be playing teams West Ham two years ago in fucking the bumfuck of nowhere I can't remember where we played Mordor Mordor yeah should we should we be having these games in pre-seasons like there was that moment where Conor Gallagher just made I don't know if it was a great challenge or an awful challenge from a Spurs perspective it looked like it was all in but pre-season friendly you're like and in a way I'm like the Chelsea players kind of have a right ear to say what are you doing yeah the whole the whole thing is weird isn't it like football's like the whole landscape of football has totally changed and in some ways this game's a good example of it because like little things like that challenge like i remember like like even five years ago there'd be like uproar about that like it's pre-season what you're doing like why are you why are you flying into tackles dan so sending off it's like the ref just wouldn't have sent him off because it's like well it's a friendly people have come specifically to watch it yeah in the rules of the game it's 100 % red yeah it's but i remember seeing loads of pre-seasons where players are like handball it and like give away like you know fouls like that and they know it's a red but they're like well we're not going to go down to like 10 versus 11 and just ruin this as a spectacle because it's half pre-season and especially these tours they're like taking them around the world as a bit of a showcase of the game but now when you start introducing these type of games i like top and chelsea you sort of elevate it to another level where it has to be competitive and so you do send the player off there because you have to right because the players are committed you got full committed tackles i don't know i i preferred it when nobody really cared about pre-season and it was just for the manager really it's just for the manager and the players to get fit and half the time you couldn't access the games unless you went to them live and that was that was fine and it was oh we beat so-and-so today oh darren bent scored three did he great he's gonna he's gonna have a great season i preferred that that era to now where everything is under the microscope constantly with pre-season when in reality it is still really just for the manager and the players it's not really for us oh yeah it's not yeah yes of course but it's sort of builders spurs and chelsea arrive in australia in sydney to play for the sydney super cup champions uh this is what we are you'll never sing that uh the uh and for the people of australia have been following and new zealand before that they've been following spurs from a distance you know really in a way that upsets their general rhythm working rhythm and sleeping patterns and all these things i actually think it's a good thing that that when you can get the team out there and maintain and boost the fan base and make people, give them an opportunity to form a genuine connection with the players that are playing on the pitch.

7:40I just don't think it needs to be as competitive as that. I don't think it's a good... But it says something about... I think it said something about Tottenham and the Zerbi's Tottenham. When Richarlison scored the goal in 92 minutes, we played 45 minutes with 10 men. There was genuine... They loved it. like De Zerbe didn't necessarily celebrate how he might have done in the Premier League but he was definitely happy with what he saw yeah because that again like that doesn't really surprise me because for these other games there's been a sort of different tone because again it has been more like a typical pre-season game where it's just minutes and you're learning a few bits and pieces trying a few things he's probably working out what players that maybe he wouldn't have naturally thought of that could be useful as part of a squad and giving them more minutes right like we've seen players like Solomon for example get quite a lot of minutes I don't think anyone's expecting to be like the first choice but it's either like shop window or potential like you know option or loan or whatever it might be right so it's that type of thing but when it's Chelsea it's Chelsea and that we're going to be playing against them next season in the league and so psychologically you want to be able to start forming this idea that like we don't lose to teams in the Premier League that's not what happens and I wonder if there's an element of that where you know he's looked at the sort of rot that had set in to 17th place finishes.

8:57And it's like, this is much about the psychology of we stayed up and now we go into a new season with a new mentality. And so it's kind of heartening to see it. I mean, it's better than just polite applause and we move on because then you feel like, well, nothing has really shifted and changed because you feel like that's what Thomas Frank's reaction would have been. And De Zerbe, I feel like, is already setting his stall out about saying things like, we want to try and win the league and this is the way that I want to play. so I'm encouraged by that type of attitude mate I much prefer us to be on that sort of like front foot yeah fair um Matty Tell was impressed this was like we had for the first time in pre-season like a team of some semblance of what you might see in the Premier League not at all really but there was some first thing like Robinson started and Tell started Tonali started van hecker uh started gallagher started barrava was playing solanke was up top kinski so it wasn't it was a we were moving more towards because the first few games in new zealand you know it was like a mishmash of young players and shop windows and stuff like that but it was a there was there was you know semblance of what we might see and mattis tells performance i thought i i think he's stamping a claim and in a world where we're talking about bringing in savinho and gak poke and play off the left.

10:17Tell wants to be there. I think he's not, I don't doubt that he wants to be at Spurs. I think he sees himself and he, so he should, as our starting left wing. And I think as long as he stays out of injury, I think regardless of where you resign, he'll start the first game of the season against Brentford away, who is it? I don't know. Yeah, man, I, I've been a big fan of his from the outset, mainly not due to the sort of football because he came, He came in in kind of an interesting period on loan initially. And then I think he scored against Villa, didn't he, fairly early on when he was on loan.

10:52And then we signed him, but it was a bit like, I don't know if this is just opportunistic and we had some money owed to us by buying and stuff. He didn't rip up trees, but I kind of liked his attitude. I remember him fronting up to fans and being like, look, stay with us, we're trying to do this. And he sort of took on way more responsibility than he needed to or was being asked to. He could have just walked down the tunnel. He could have done... Easily. easily most 21 year old kids would have done and most of our 26 27 year olds were doing at the time right and that's that to me immediately was like oh this kid's not the same as them and he doesn't see himself the same as them he sees himself as like i'm going to take responsibility i'm going to be one of the better players in this club so therefore i need to kind of stand up and take you know be accountable so i've always rated him for that on a pitch you know he's inconsistent because he's a fairly young kid and in attacking positions like it's you really stand out right like if you're you know if you're in that cutting edge right it's always going to be really clear areas of play 100 % mate it's hard enough for the top players they go through bad streaks and when you're a young player in a side that's not performing very well it's going to stand out but as I said many times there are there were players in the league who people were like oh yeah he's really good we should look at him Somerville or as a great example look at their stats from last season like tell stats are better than his but the perception is that tells inconsistent some cases people think he's just rubbish and we should just get rid of him and there's nothing there i can't understand it i really you know most of the time when there's like a bit of a culture war with a player i get it right like i get why the tacticals don't like palina i completely understand their point but like i'm like well but my opinion is this is what you get from him except in their side if you can't see that there's a player intel i don't even know how to argue that because I'm like, there's nothing there other than just like what I'm seeing is a player who's got this like massive potential, who's like just about to explode.

12:44And so if we get rid of him now or don't think he's good enough now, I feel like that, yeah, I don't know how else to basically explain it other than just, you know, to quote a great man, Joshi Waite, right? Because I feel like he's going to show everyone. He's going to make a lot of people look really stupid next season who've been slagging him off because I think low-key, even if we bring in another player in that position, it will get to a point where the question will be like, he has to start because I feel like he's going to be so impactful. He's so dangerous that it's going to be one of those where, yeah, suddenly it's like a selection headache.

13:20And that's my ideal scenario, by the way, is I love Tell, but I still want us to sign Savinho. I still want us to sign someone because I feel like then you really do have the best of both worlds and you have this player who can come off the bench and offer you something and that becomes a selection headache. And then in a year, you're like, well, Tell's now the starter, so it's all good. Yeah, no, no, you're right. And he's, I think, in the tail end of last season, where we were struggling, and this was before De Zerbi, when he got an opportunity to play and he wasn't being played by Frank, and there was, you know, there was talk about him leaving in January, when, I think if I remember rightly, Tudor, he started to use him more and obviously then so did De Zerbi.

14:01you saw a player that just i feel like i'm repeating myself but just didn't hide wanted to be on that pitch like when everybody else it seemingly was downing tools players like and javi simmons i would say wasn't guilty of that and tell certainly wasn't guilty of that it was easy for players to hide in that moment and i didn't realize i didn't really fully understand the term when professionals use it, ex-pros say it, that he was hiding in the game. If you play the game at that level, you'll see subtleties and understand it at a level that us normal, you know, Luddites probably wouldn't. But there were moments in that Spurs team last year that I did see people hiding.

14:47People weren't fronting for the ball. They're happy to stay in position where they're willing to move out of position to receive it, to try and do something. Tell consistently did that. he consistently did it and he has the quality to be a top top player at spurs so yeah sign savinho savinho for sure make them battle it out who who wants it more it'll make tell a better player savinho would have competition and you know there'll be options there did you see savinho in for man city there was it was only a highlights reel about three or four of his moments but i'm like god when he gets it right he fucking gets it right he's really good and the thing about is if if you bring Savino in, like we're all thinking, oh, we need that starter on the left, but he can play on the right as well.

15:27So we basically have like cover and rotation for Kudus. We don't know what's going to happen with Kulaseski. So you need, you need someone who can play on both sides. He can do that. And then Tell also can like, it wouldn't be my first choice for him, but he can offer like something down the middle if you, if you needed to. So it, that would sort of be really like, that would make a lot of sense. And he's got a lot of quality to add. And those two battling it out, surely just pushes them both on to be, to be better. And that's what we need. We want like ceiling raisers, basically, at this point.

15:56I did think when I was watching Savino's highlights for Real with their game, I was watching it and going, why are you going to let him go? This is my issue. Obviously, for whatever reasons, as discussed in the last episode we did, I don't know why he wants to top them so much. Maybe things have shifted because of Zerbe. But he's wanted to come for a year under Frank. So he wants to come to Spurs. I think it's something to do. I feel like if you're going to make sense of it, it's something to do with his relationship with Xavi Simmonds. Because they played together at PSV, and they're interacting with each other.

16:30And I'm just trying to find a reason why you would want to leave Manchester City and join Spurs. And it might be regular football. But you watch that highlights role, and they're looking at it, and you're like, why would they sell him? If we can get him over the door, or get him through the door, rather, I'll be over the moon. But you look at him, he's like, he's so dangerous. He's so good. They have Doku there. but and Mamouche can play there so they are stacked but I don't know I just yeah it's weird but it happens doesn't it where you sort of like you don't understand why players leave like you know Cole Palmer was at City why why did they let him go well because he wanted to go because he they didn't see him yeah yeah I want to play and I think like Savino is probably looking at it going you know despite what we're saying about Tell he's going I'll be the star man there like I can go there and I'll be the starter in that position and I think I can rip it up and I'm not getting that opportunity here so I want to move on I think City are they don't want to let him go which is why they're digging the hills in right but there is a point where they will also look at and go well if he really really wants to go and we aren't really going to start him and we can get 60 70 million whatever's being touted now that's where it becomes a conversation it's no different to Bergvail for us we don't want to sell him but if someone offers us money that we can't refuse and we know he's not going to start, we will sell him.

17:48And it's the same principle and I think that's why this isn't as easy a deal as it appears because actually I do think City want to keep him and that to me just indicates even more why we should really try and sign him because they clearly do rate him. They may want to keep him as if can you keep a player happy if he isn't going to start. If he is on that left-hand side, they've got cover everywhere. We've got brilliant players everywhere. You've got Doku, you've got Mamouche, I don't know who else they've got on that left-hand side. maybe Savigny is third and he can play on the right as well because he did in the highlights of that game they played

18:26but he's going to play if he comes to Spurs certainly there's going to be a competition between Tell and him and he'll probably fancy his chances of starting most games I don't know maybe we'll see did you see Zobi's comments on Richarlison? no he said sometimes I love him and sometimes I hate him but he did say I'm very happy he deserves to play he's a good guy a top player hopefully he can show what he suffered in in the last two years in the next season maybe not against Tottenham but he's a lovely guy and he's a very very good player so it's like he wants him to stay and he as he said about dessert about Beraval and he said the same about Romero and other players I think you know more or less he just as a blanket approach to if you want to stay stay we need you if you don't go which is the right thing we should have been that and then that's backed up by the intentions of the board as well you know the idea of just letting players leave or don't force not forcing them to stay because they don't believe in it is an important thing and i believe you know like we've been linked with a lot of players like jack poe as a number nine potentially um want to talk We're awesome and with you in a sec.

19:39Who else? There was Nicholas Jackson today, which Gakpo and Nicholas Jackson don't move me at all, right? They don't, I don't, I'm not like excited to sign them. But I am very interested in seeing what De Zerbi wants from these players and what he sees. Because as we've seen through, we've seen it at Spurs, you see it at many clubs, certain managers can turn average players into very good ones and change the perception of their abilities and change the trajectory of their career. Ricky Lambert, after playing under Pochettino, went to Liverpool. Not in a million years would that happen. And I'm saying Ricky Lambert because you use that as a reference point to say the level that Nicholas Jackson is at.

20:22You don't rate him. I don't rate him. I don't really want him at Spurs. I get it. He's gone to Bayern Munich for some reason. There must be something in there. He went to Chelsea for big money when he was younger for some reason. There must be a player in there. but do you agree with me that like it could be that De Zerbe makes great players out of average ones yeah of course and that and that's always the thing with you know any signing that we make is I'll give my honest opinion on what I think they are it doesn't mean that that's what they'll be right that that's down to the manager and ultimately like I'll hope that we get the best out of them and it's you know it's a little bit like with Nicholas Jackson I just don't personally think he's very good right but that doesn't mean that if we sign him we we can't see something positive from him i guess my um hesitation isn't a nicholas jackson thing it's just the market right it's the fact that like nicholas jackson is like at club like bayern munich and is being considered by us and that it's either that or gap po and that you can't go well here's 20 better strikers than them why aren't we going for them it's like that there is that list doesn't exist you can't really you can't name 20 better strikers than Nicholas Jackson currently in World and that is mental and that's what I was saying before in our chat just to peek behind the curtain I was basically like if he was around during the same time as like Charlie Austin, Ricky Lambert like David Nugent that's the level he is at in my mind but then there was like 50, 60 better strikers in World Football than those three so that's the problem it's not necessarily a him issue It's the market issue.

21:59And that's why if we do go down the route of signing him, then it's not necessarily a negative thing. I don't want to cut you, John, but Alistair Gold has just said that there is no expectation to explore any move for Nicholas Jackson. Yeah, because De Zerbe knows he's not as good as David Nugent. That's why. And herein lies the problem. We've transferred tittle-tattle because it creates a level of expectation in a fan base that is unfair on the club that they support. And the case in point here is a news story by the biggest grifter in this space, which is fucking Graham Bailey of Team Talk. Now, I don't know what Graham Bailey's up to.

22:43In fact, I fucking know what he's up to. I know exactly what he's up to. He understands that transfer rumour is the greatest currency in football. We're obsessed by it. I'm obsessed by it. We're obsessed by ITK. I'm of an age where I should be above it but I'm not, I love it I want as much information from credible sources as possible about players that might be coming to my football club those credible sources do not include Graham Bailey and what's irritating about Graham Bailey is he will use team talk as evidence or the source he's using to create bullshit when all of the world's bullshit in football is on Team Talk.

23:26So just by him quoting, as reported by Team Talk, doesn't add anything. It just adds, it forces gullible people into sharing bullshit into groups, which is what happened this week. Right, so we had the link that Spurs were about to bid for Victor Osman. Now, John and I have had very heated conversations on this very subject for a long, long time. John's, your point, John, back then was like, go and get him. It's Victor Osserman. He's the player we need. If we sign him, genuinely, I think we're in a title challenge next year. Definitely. Without question. He is brilliant. He's massive. He's fantastic.

24:08But I'm not going to believe in it because Graham Bailey told me so. Yeah, fair. That's fair, isn't it? Yeah, mate. That is 100 % fair. If we... So, just go back on Victor Osserman. I... If you remember, when we signed Solanke, me and Ricky were like I don't understand what why we spent this money on Solanke when there's players like Ossiman available and at the time and actually still remains true to this day which is like it's not just as easy as the transfer fee right and it was annoying because he went to Galatasaray and he was obviously at Napoli at the time and we're like well we should be able to have a bigger pull than them but the main issue still remains which is that it's actually like from a money perspective the money is mental for awesome men right it's like his wages are basically subsidized by the league or by the state so they basically pay next to no he's got 20 yeah 20 they pay a flat rate his super league players uh play a 20 flat rate that's all they pay on their tax he's on 350 grand a week right okay so even if he has to pay his tax he's still fucking minted yeah but galataso probably cover it yeah yeah so you know we would then have to you know if you think about tax for you know super it's like 50 maybe even higher actually they've probably been super super tax or was that 60 huge amounts of money yeah so then you're basically you know at the point where we have to make up the difference so his wages will not only like blow any previous like wage restrictions we've had before but it completely like inflates our entire wage structure now that being said that's what a serious club would do no one is all right i disagree that's what a serious club goes it did you or did you not just say if you had victor osseman you are a league title challenger yeah right what is our objective as according to our manager and board winning the league right sign victor osseman then okay like sign him no i'm with you john i want him to i know i want that to be the case and if they came out and they bought him and said don't worry about the wages we're gonna figure this out i'll be over the moon i'd like brilliant you're doing exactly what i want you to do pay all the money so we get all of the accolades and the trophies Victor Osman is probably in terms of available strikers and the best one is the best one he is the best one we remember we were talking about Jackson a minute ago and I was like you know there aren't 20 better strikers well Victor Osman is definitely better right and that and of available strikers forget Haaland forget Kane forget Mbappe right of the available strikers that's around it's basically Lataro Martinez you could probably get Osman is better than him yeah so like and then there's even players like you know alvarez at athletic coming i don't think he's gettable at this moment in time but he would be at one that again would be like in the same sort of category so they're the only ones really in world football that are gettable and the only barrier really if you look at all the boxes the only barrier is money so right we've got to find a way to make that work otherwise we don't we don't really have but with the level of ambition that we're saying we need to be very clear about what that money means that what what what that money is he is on 350 grand right he is uh paying 20 20 tax rate if he moves to england he's immediately having to pay 20 at least bare minimum 27 percent more on what he currently plays which is probably already paid by galatasaray yeah so we did we made a really accurate you did actually you made an accurate assumption of what the kind of weekly wage fee might be for us for osman um it is in the region of 550 000 pound a week to cover his taxes and that's just to pay him what he's earning at galatasaray that's not giving him a pay increase so that's not gonna happen you can't pay five no one in world football is paying 500 grand a week john we're not we're not gonna be the club that does that i'd worry about our future finances if we did something like a five-year contract with 500 grand a week it's too much i think and i want him but i'm like how much can we afford on other players after the fact but so this is just again like i always like to just to play devil's advocate to think about the other way if if deserby and the club you know they put in a bid with galatasaray that they accept right so we can talk to the player if he doesn't want to move because he just wants to earn the most amount of money then we we probably shouldn't try and sign him anyway right just to be really blunt about it because you would at this point have to question like his ambition right his drive because he basically when he was leaving napoli the reason that clubs were like for whatever reason they didn't go in from is because of what he was asking for wages wise and the only team that would really pay it was galatasaray and they had this tax benefit thing which has sort of inflated his wages essentially so it is one of those things where it's like look we can't we can't pay you what you're on at Galatasaray but you can play for us and try and win the premier league and try and you know get back into the championship how much money have you already earned you can't spend all the money you've got you fucking just fucking sign for Tottenham yeah so if he doesn't if you have that conversation with him and he's like no what why would I move I'll just set my contract here then you go absolutely enjoy playing in Turkey because your talent is much better than that but if his mentality is well I just want to earn the most money I think that the days where like any club spends that sort of money is gone like that's not you know in Saudi or China or whatever like these these other mental leagues that used to pay the money so when I'm saying just pay whatever it takes to get him I understand that in reality that's not possible but I do think you should have a conversation where whatever our top budget is like if it's 350 grand a week or 400 which is like way over what we do if that's the maximum we'd ever spend on anyone he is a player that has the level of talent where you go, it might be worth doing that because that could be the difference between us finishing top four and winning the league in the next three years.

30:00The problem you've got is if it isn't, if he comes and he can't cut it in the Premier League. Sure. But that's the risk, yeah. That's always the risk. Yeah, how big a risk? Like, would you take that risk with your wife? Like, do you... Before you marry your wife, you are engaged for a bit. You are together. you're seeing if the sex is compatible you're seeing if the you know if she's a good person you're not immediately going right let's get married and buy a house the minute you meet her because she shagged loads of other blokes earlier and everyone thinks quality i don't know if that works so what you're saying is loan with an option to buy but i'm not sure that's all right or my wife are up for that yeah loan with an obbo yeah yeah so either way that the players that we've so far been linked with remember we like we're all excited about deserve be the shark and there's another bomber coming and everyone's imagination yeah everyone's imagination was running wild boy um and then it's like oh it could be gack poe or nicholas jackson now everyone's like oh shit so like in dreamland yeah awesome and it as we've riddled this out it's making me think like even if we really were ambitious it's unlikely to happen unless he wants it to happen which again remains unknown so then it's like marmouche gacpo are the ones linked and as you said rightly city if they let savinho go are they really going to let marmouche go as well it seems unlikely so if i had to put money down now on two attacking times that we would make it'll be savinho and gacpo just logically yeah and you know me originally when gacpo was mentioned i was like and i had a couple of Liverpool fans unfortunately and they don't necessarily want him to go they think he's a good player in there have you sensed that as well?

31:59So my brother-in-law is a Liverpool fan some of my mates are Liverpool fans they're the same they're not like oh he's the best player ever we can't let him go but they'd be like this will feel like we've let him go a bit early and that there potentially is this player that's just about to break through and something you said earlier about Ricky Lambert under Poch and how he sort of went from, you know, a championship player who used to score loads of goals into like a Premier League player who scored lots of goals and then was capped for England. And a good coach can really bring that out. And I also think back about like, different example, but stay with me.

32:34Dembele at Fulham was a wide attacking forward who had amazing feet and could beat people, but then just smash it wide or go over or just run into players. And you're like, there's something there. this like guy's sort of elite but this he's rubbish at the same time like makes no sense then Potch just goes it's playing central midfield problem solved bang and then all of a sudden you've got this world-class player player that people talk about as like the best player they've played with despite you know not playing for you know big big in quotation marks like Real Madrid Barcelona people talk about you know little old Tottenham central midfielders being the best player they've played against and like someone who's just a ridiculous player is there a chance that Gakpo gets moved into like a centre forward and you go, right, we're going to teach him how to play with his back to goal because he's got all the other attributes and then suddenly he's a 20 goal a season striker.

33:22I don't know. If he is signed for Spurs, it will be through the middle that he plays. Yeah, I can't, he can't, he's not going to be on the left, is it? I mean, he may be on the left but you've got, our problem is the number nine. If you're buying him, it's him. We haven't had a chance to talk about Antonin Kinski. Oh, man, his distribution was fucking unreal. He made a great save, similar to the save you made against Leeds wasn't it? The save was mental like I don't I mean because it's pre-season I get why but I sort of can't believe it's not been spoken about more I actually think it's better because I actually think he yeah and I'll tell you why he fell away from the goal weren't he?

34:00Because the Leeds one is just like more of a reaction to something happening right so like he's just like I've just got to move because something's happened but this was like a save like he reacted to that ball moving and made that it's unreal it's unreal every time i watch him like oh no and i'm like oh yes it's mental so yeah that was the one bit i think everyone was like well he's great with his feet great distribution but he's not a great shot stopper and he's now made two of the best saves i've ever seen in my entire life so now i'm starting to think like we've i think in a way there's been a lot of chat of like we'll make do a kinski like it will just do for now and then but he could low-key just become just he's on number one next year without question for sure for sure you know like i i was speaking with ben haynes and i knew that he was um he'd gone out to the czech republic to film some stuff and you've seen it's already been released so it's not a surprise or anything but he the way that ben mentioned like like he's the family and and and and the support network he's got around him but he's just demeanor for a young man a young goal keeper super young like he's you know for for anyone who's adopted tottenham in recent times a player the goalkeepers in the premier league are not they're not first team starters typically of that age you you're talking late 20s into your 30s when you're peaking kinski looks it's it's less we know he's got shop stocking abilities because we're we we are still in the premier league because of him.

35:30I've just seen something. Someone's flair on Reddit says 2025-26 relegation champions. That cracked me up. But we're relegation champions because of Kinski, because of the saves he'd make. Without him, without Tao's contribution, without Javi Simons' contribution, we wouldn't be in the league. So Kinski's, and it's a well-trodden path. I said that twice this episode, but it's, you know, the idea of Kinski's, the talking about his redemption arc from Atletico Madrid to now, it's unreal. You're talking, well, by the end of the season, it would have been February, right? When we got knocked out. So about February to thinking he'll never play football again.

36:15And there's been a recent article about, from Karius who had a shocking Champions League exposure. I can't remember who they played, but he kicked the ball in the net twice practically. similar to what Kinski did and now he's he's on number one but he's distribution he finds he finds the ball and he went past the player and I know there might be mistakes in him and we may concede one or two because we've been playing like that but if you're playing in the Zerbi's team you need to be able to play football he looks he kicks the ball like a centre back or a left back would yeah mate he's so comfortable on the ball and you know this is the perfect type of keeper for what we're trying to do with the Zerbi that's what we need and he's been sort of pushed into the foreground and he's going to play a lot of games.

36:59You're definitely right, he's going to be our number one. And there will be, given his age and the way that we play, there'll be more mistakes. It will happen, but there'll be way more upside as a result of playing that way and playing with him. And the biggest thing that I always think is really interesting when you're given the space and time, in some ways what happened at Atletico Madrid might be the best thing that ever happened to him. because now, like a little, you know, cheeky little conceding away at like Bournemouth, you just get over that. You're like, well, nothing will be as bad as what happened to me against Atletico Madrid.

37:36And so this is just, I know how to deal with disappointment. I know how to deal with this moment. And it is that classic thing. The reason they call it make or break is because you either recover from it and it really makes you and builds character and you become stronger as a person. You know how to deal with adversity or it breaks you. and that's the end and your career's over so I remember at the time when everyone was like that's it he's over I'm like he's 20 or whatever he was at the time like it's not over unless he can't keep coping I was saying that I felt like it was it was too big of an occasion it was he was thrown in too early the whole narrative around it was that Picario's playing badly and he's going to come in and save us I thought he would struggle and it just shows the mental aptitude of the lad like that is you're right make or break this is a terrible thing that's happened for your career and your reputation what are you going to do with that information are you going to use it are you going to make yourself better because of it and if the answer is yes then you will progress if the answer is no if you don't have that in you then you'll only go one way and i just i'm like buzzing for him like i'm really attached to his progress i really am yeah same it's brilliant it's great it's great from a like fan-based perspective as well when you have someone that like overcomes that adversity and you can get behind them and like really like want them to do well and push forward and so yeah it's great to see and like I said if he turns out to be a top quality keeper we have him there for like 10 years we'd have to worry about it a bit like we had with Lloris right it was like once we knew Lloris was good it was like I think fuck we've got him now for like 10 years because keepers are so hard to sign and so hard to get the right fit and if you get a good one especially if you get them early then um makes life a lot easier so yeah it's great okay John it's time it's time for the quiz it's time for grey matter that's really nice that's really good you could have called it the Archie Grey whistle test I could have done, that's really good I've just thought of that and that's the way your brain, grey matter need to explain anyway, here we go

39:42ladies and gentlemen dim the lights it's time to test your knowledge on Tottenham's midfielder, right-back, centre-half, tour captain and possibly future groundsman. Welcome to Grey Matter. Today, our contestant is Jonathan Bass. Jon, are you ready? I'm ready. It's a bit loud, I can turn it down in half. It's a bit loud, I can turn it down in half. Is that better? Yeah, you can go down a bit more as well if you want. A bit more, a bit more. There we go. That's better. First time I've done it Question one Archie Gray was born in which city? I'm going to go for Leeds Leeds is incorrect He was born in Durham Question two At which age Sorry Question two At which age group did Archie join The Leeds United Academy?

40:36I'm going to go Under nines mate he's only fucking done it under nines is the correct answer I was expecting one mate you're already ahead let us know in the comments on Spotify where you rank in this if you've beaten John Bass let us know and question three is which of these is not one of Archie's Archie's Archie Grey's Leeds playing relatives it's quite hard right which one of these did not play for Leeds is related to Archie Grey elderly his father Andy his grandfather Frank his great uncle Eddie his uncle Bill which one did not play for Leeds I mean this won't shock you was it Andy Gray was it Frankie Gray was it Eddie Gray was it Phil Gray which one didn't play I think his old man didn't play for him did he no he did Uncle Phil I never I was going to say Uncle Phil but I thought maybe it is like a trick question.

41:39It is impossible. It's impossible. Question four. How old was Archie Gray when he was first included in the Leeds Senior Matchday squad? Was it 15? Was it 16? Or was it 17? 15. It was... 15! He's got two! Go on! Go on. I knew it was 15. I knew that one. We have a bonus question, but final... Question five. How many experiences... How many apprentices... How many appearances did he make in his first season at Tottenham? Was it 36, 41 or 46? I'll go 41. It was 46. 46 fucking games. That's mental. Unreal. Here's a bonus question. Doesn't matter if you do this. What is that? Two out of five. Well done, John.

42:24Very good. Very good. Bonus question. Which position did Zerbi reveal Archie Gray does not particularly enjoy playing? Probably right back. Right back, there you go. I want to give you another point for that, mate. Boom. So that's three out of six. And do you know, you got the under nine. You got the under nine without me giving you the... Do you know what? I fucked that up completely because I think you've multiple choice for the first two. So the fact that you've done this well, John, just shows you the intelligence and fabric of the man. Yeah, and that's mostly logic, right? It's not knowledge because I don't know the answers.

42:56I've used my grey matter to help the grey matter. Good. Let's turn that shit off. Yeah, that's the slogan. yeah so there you go how did you do at home let us know in the spotify comments and finally let's do a roundup of the transfer news uh christian romero reportedly around 40 million euros someone said 36 million feels like we're just trying to get him out into milan won him do you believe it is 40 million euros remotely accessible acceptable you know who replaces is, you know, what? I mean, look, it's not what he's worth, but it is acceptable. Does that make sense? Yeah, because we went over the last few, last couple of episodes, didn't we?