THE LAB | De Zerbi-Ball at Spurs: What Changes, What Breaks, What Works

29:42Have you seen the clip of Company doing it? No, I haven't. There's a clip of Company when he was at Anderlecht. having a go at someone. I have seen it. Yeah, I didn't realize what he was talking about when he was buying. But yes, no, I know exactly what you're talking about. This shit happens all the time. It's fine. We're grown men. Get on with it. Five minutes later, 99 % of the time, five minutes later, you shake hands, you get on with it. It's fine. You know, now I don't know what happened there. For all I know, maybe it was bullying. Maybe Kone was targeted. I don't know in the same way that most of the people online also don't know.

30:11So people shouldn't judge things like that from that. Yeah. It comes from, they're probably unhappy view of his appointment anyway and using this material yeah it's this narrative based too much of discourse is narrative based now but no in terms of just looking at that clip isolated there there's nothing inherently wrong with that would i necessarily do it that way i don't think i would say go call your agent i don't know but i might react and do it in other ways who knows you know football and life it's grown men and like i said if the player ends up wilting from that he's got bigger problems than deserve to be shouting at him you know and actually apparently because I listened to your podcast apparently Kone's actually done really well and he's turning it around now or he's playing really well.

30:49Doing well at Sassuulu, yeah. Fair play to him. There you go. Fair play, young man. Fair play. So if you did have issues before and this was a regular thing well, there you go. You know, you didn't wilt under the pressure and you've ended up maybe becoming better for it. So well done you. It's just people. Yeah, and it's, you know, some players react to different personalities differently. 100%. I guess you, I mean, I want to talk about the kind of players that you think might be successful under Deserby and ones that not. But there is a slight concern that we have a really young squad. And under that level of pressure, are they going to float or are they going to sink?

31:25We'll see. So when Deserby's football works well, it is beautiful to watch. And I was watching, I don't know if you managed to catch the PSG versus Liverpool game. I was absolutely blown away by PSG. Absolutely joyful. Oh, mate. I'm only bringing this up because some of the principles that Zerbi wants to instill in his football aren't dissimilar to what Luis Enrique is able to do. It's just whether you can make it happen. Like PSG, for me, the best team I've ever seen was... I think it was a season after the treble for Manchester City. And I just thought they're unplayable. It might have been when they went, I think it was at 99 and 97, whatever it was with Liverpool.

32:23Anyway, I thought this Man City side was just a joy to watch and the best side I've ever seen. That performance genuinely against Liverpool, and I've watched maybe 15 PSG games in my life. that was one of the best displays of control pace ability to move the ball quickly a complete devoid of attitude of personality no no no no no personality that's unfair of individualism the individualism came in doing your bit brilliantly when you got the opportunity to do it and moving into space so that a new rotation could happen or a new phase of play could happen. They were incredible. They were unbelievable.

33:10There was times where Liverpool were just stuck. They were stuck. And they had five players at the back. They weren't supposed to play a flat back five, but PSG made them at times. And instead of like in Premier League football, and we've seen it at Spurs, they will move the ball around. I think there's probably a term for it that you'll know. You should know this, Sam, because I've had a go about this term a million times on your podcast. What is it? What shape are you doing right now? I'm doing a four. No, you're not. What have you done? What's this? No, no, no. Sorry, sorry. The horseshoe. Is it a horseshoe?

33:47The U-shape, yeah. The U-shape, yeah, yeah. No, yeah, so there was that. But it's also like when someone's sitting in a low block, you'll pass it around hoping to pull a defender out or one of them might commit or be seduced by the idea that they can get the ball and they can break, right? PSG don't do that. They're like, no, we're going to find a tiny bit of space and we're going to put it into one of our players that are going to be there. And then you have to do something about it because we've got touches in your box. It doesn't matter if you're playing on a low block. You have to challenge this ball.

34:20And as soon as you do, it's going back out and it's going left and then there's space. And it sounds so simple. it is it is it is trust me mate it is if you're brilliant and well drilled no it's listen football at the elite level is of course difficult and I'm not saying it's easy but it is not as difficult as people nowadays try to make it seem like it is there's 22 players on a pitch maximum and a football pitch is 100 yards by 70 yards whatever it is whatever dimensions 22 men can't fit that much space there's space somewhere and people nowadays say there's no space there's no space there's no space in the low block yes there is there actually is it's whether you're good enough and willing to find it whether you're willing to what i call i say it quite a lot um don't know if i've discussed it with you on a on a podcast but i think there's a misinterpretation of what risk means um to psg will put the ball at risk so what that means is they'll put the ball into sort of areas where it might not be necessarily completely in favour of their teammate.

35:31Whereas the Zerbi is often the opposite. He doesn't want to put the ball at risk. So actually all of the Zerbis play, if you look at it, it's risky in the sense of where they lose the ball is risky from the goalkeeper defender, for example, the Zerbi, I mean, it's risky in that sense, but the actual passes, they should work more often than not because they're going to the feet of the nearest man. that's a different kind of risk of what I'm talking about and kind of what you're talking about there. PSG would be willing to find the nearest gaps and then maybe trust skill that could lose. Individual actions in isolation are more risky of losing the ball, but they're doing it quite often higher up the pitch.

36:12A lot of teams nowadays, for whatever reason, they're so afraid to lose the ball in the final third, so they don't put the ball at risk. And that's why you see what you're talking about there, where you're seeing teams playing that horseshoe, where they stay in the same shape, back to his feet back to his feet back to his feet so if I'm just doing that why do the opposition need to move they don't need to I could even do that 100 miles an hour it's not the ball speed that does it it's the changing of the shape that does it so if I did this and asked you to follow your head's not going to move I've gone too quick it's the same thing with that whereas sometimes it's better it's not about speed it's about how you attack and utilise space and drag the opposition and far too many teams and players ball to feet stop ball to feet, stop, ball to feet, stop.

36:55Do that as quick as you want. You're not changing any shape. So why would the opposition have to change shape? I mean, this sort of goes back to what De Zerbi can potentially bring because he's... I'm going to read you this. I guess the question is, is it attacking football? De Zerbi, is it attacking football? And the answer, I guess, is yes. But it's slow build. It's sudden vertical explosions. it's breaking structure not crossing or volume based football it's surgically attacking football not high energy speed based football is that fair? I'd say that's a bloody good description where'd that come from?

37:36I broke that myself you tried to chat to me didn't you? I thought you chat to me no I mean the principle is is it correct just answer me that yeah that to me when I picture Deserby that's that's how that's what I think of yeah because that's what that's what Luis Enrique's football is but just to the absolute pinnacle I think Luis Enrique affords a lot more freedom for his players certainly the forward players I don't think you can lock I don't think I think there's a lot more fluidity potentially in terms of like how they move the ball and how they make things happen I think players are probably allowed to breathe a little bit more with Luis Enrique, as long as they, you know, do the job that they're supposed to do in terms of like, you know, discipline, whatever it might be.

38:29Yeah, but doing the job and discipline Harry, right? Like he had Mbappe, who this season, you could argue along with Harry Kane and Jamal, the best free players in Europe probably. He got rid of him because he didn't fit. He wouldn't do. he acknowledged and saw in Mbappe a player of unrivaled quality or unrivaled in by most footballers he just he is an incredible footballer in Mbappe right but he knew he wasn't going to do what PSG needed him what Luis Enrique needed him to do and so he let him go and he's got he's got a forward line it's like Kravat Shilja Dembele and Due who played through the middle at times right it was just incredible and these are players that you don't even hear of there's no news stories around them there's nothing that's what I mean and I love the PSG team and the forward line I think they're amazing and that is the difference so like let's say you said Dwayne there on the piece of paper where would Dwayne play on the piece of paper I would typically put him wide but he wasn't as you said wasn't always there and Luis Enrique does afford that whereas like a De Zerbi team would probably be a bit more well hang on my wingers are wide and things like that I'm not saying this is a setting stone And all you've seen to Zerbi seems like the fullbacks have come in quite a bit.

39:50But he does have certain ideas of what he wants in each area of the pitch. So, you know, he likes lots of touches for his wingers. They're allowed to have lots of touches and go 1v1. He doesn't want players to have lots of touches in the middle of the park necessarily. He wants that ball moved one and two touch quickly. I don't think Luis Enrique is quite like that. But, yeah, listen, of course, you can make similarities across loads of different things. And, you know, there are, of course, similarities between the two in lots of ways. I don't think you'll see necessarily, unless, you know, De Zerbe has adapted what he wants to do and adapted his ideologies.

40:20I don't think you'll see him play perhaps football where all of a sudden, you know, you have, if you're related to PSG, Dwayne in the middle of one stage and then Dembele out wide and then this and that and this kind of very, you maybe have like small groups of players overloading in that area in the final third and then whatever it might be. I think De Zerbe is a lot more about like the structure of players having more structure and set kind of roles and routines. But again, it's horses for courses, isn't it? Did you see just one final thing? Well, I've got to stop masturbating to PSG, but they were using throw-ins as through balls.

40:59Yeah, I did see Nuno Mendes do that, yeah. Yeah, well, just him. It's actually Menenge, I found out. Is it really? Is that Finange as well? for Nange. Anyway, yeah, Mendes, who's just unbelievable as well. But yeah, he gets the ball. The forward makes a run on the wing, which helps when you've got like nippy wingers and players that can play at pace. Make the run. Throw the ball. If you can throw it into an area where you can split the defence, which shouldn't be a problem, then make the run and then they're through. It's just, I'm just thinking, the reason why I keep bringing in PSG is I think, I think, I think, that Spurs are going to be the new PSG and we're going to win it all.

41:43I don't actually believe that. I hope. K-pop Demon Hunters, Saja Boys Breakfast Meal and Huntrix Meal have just dropped at McDonald's. They're calling this a battle for the fans. What do you say to that, Rumi? It's not a battle. So glad the Saja Boys could take breakfast and give our meal the rest of the day. It is an honor to share. No, it's our honor. It is our larger honor. No, really. Stop. you can really feel the respect in this battle pick a meal to pick a side participate in mcdonald's while supplies last but we'll see um what are the weaknesses in this system um is it is it sort of risking build up its dependence on uh you know coaching like the fact that it takes ages it takes weeks lewis dunk said it took like five weeks to really figure out what you needed us to do and when it clicked it was great i guess i guess for me stylistically i would say the major issues aren't really where you lose the ball of course that can be a risk but you know there's a risk to any way of playing um for me the issues i've had of it is how many players of your on your own team it ends up committing in build-up where...

43:00So most goals, I think 90 % of goals, right, in football across the board, don't... There's going to be some stat nerd listening to this that kind of get me that one. But right, most goals... They're not listening to this. They're not listening to this. Most goals across the board, I think 90 % of them originate from the final third. Originate from the final third, believe it or not. Yep. The vast majority of goals are scored in four to six passes. the vast vast majority of goals even Man City I believe vast majority goals four to six passes you can play any way in a sense but what the Zerbi's football is is that you will often have four five six seven passes and the ball is still in your own final third and even if you break out from that press you've still got so much of the pitch left to cover except that you haven't got that many players further forward to hit because quite often so many have dropped to come and help you get out so you're looking at basically can three four players or whatever it is five whatever it might be can they quickly get that ball to the opposition goal covering 70 plus yards using just five players that to me is a misunderstanding of risk and i get it and listen i understand completely the purpose of it.

44:24It's not quite what I would set up necessarily as a coach, but that's fine. There's no right or wrong way. But that for me is the weakness. It's more in terms of the attacking sense of just how many players you have to commit where the risk is huge if you do lose the ball, but the reward is still, the reward of that football means you've still got 70 yards plus to cover. Do you know what I mean? That's a long way to go. the chances of you scoring in those 70 yards or having a high chance on goal in those 70 yards with three, four, five players to hit those spaces I think is less than if you have that ball in the final third for a longer period of time trying to hit that goal earlier I'm not saying long ball but I'm saying when you're choosing the most offensive option and De Zerbe isn't really about that he wants to get the opposition team up the pitch and then hit them quickly which you know but people might say well yeah no but I think actually you've got more chance of scoring if it's a now a 4v4 attacking 70 yards of space rather than you know being creative attacking a deep block okay fine that's a matter of opinion there's no right or wrong um but that's what i would personally look at as the weaknesses um of a deservedly team and then i guess people have regularly sort of said well you know is there the same meticulousness in terms of not meticulousness that's the wrong word is there the same cut through you aspect to this game if a team sits back and doesn't press.

45:50People have sometimes said that. Yeah, they sit in a sort of mid-block. It's very structured. It's very whatever. And then the problem with quite structured patterns of play is that means the opposition can read what you're going to do. So if there's more players reading what you're going to do, it's going to be harder to score. So listen, is it the style of football that I adore watching that I would ideally implement if I had a blank piece of paper and pick any player I want to make my team? No, but that doesn't mean I'm right and it doesn't mean De Zerbe's right. It doesn't mean any of us are wrong.

46:19But if you're asking what the weaknesses are, that's probably what I would say. I think it's a different kind of risk to what I call good risk, if that makes sense. Yeah, I remember when you were talking about risk before and how people sort of feel about it and what it actually means in a game state. And we talked a lot about Romero and his passing ability and breaking the lines. Sorry, he's passing being able to break the lines. Yeah, sorry, I was being myself, didn't I? We did speak about this. No, no, no, but it's interesting because Romero is almost perfect for De Zerbi. Yeah, 100%. He is ideal for De Zerbi.

46:58De Zerbi's going to absolutely love him. And I'm sure like Posta Coglu, I'm not sure if Posta Coglu got it directly from De Zerbi, but the amount of times you saw Romero with his studs on the ball waiting for the forward to come. It's almost like he's pre-built for De Zerbe. I know there's been a lot of talk about how influential De Zerbe's football has been on other managers. And I don't know how true it is, but there's this idea, this kind of inviting the press. Because if you come, we're going to play for you. And you've seen Romero do something similar. So it could be interesting. And it just got me thinking about what players do you think are going to be winners?

47:41When I say winners, will fit into his system and what players might struggle? Do you have any opinions on that, Harry? Yeah, I think Romero will love it. I think, you know, I've always been a fan of Romero. I know he gets a lot of flack. You feel like their temperament, they're aligned, aren't they? Fiery characters. Yeah, 100%, 100%. I think, yeah, I think Romero is going to love it. Archie Gray can play under anyone in any style and look great all the reason obviously if you completely go against what he's good at then he's not going to look great like anyone but he will be a part of that double pivot if we do utilise this box Archie Gray strikes me as the kind of player that has the intelligence all-roundedness and discipline to be able to implement pretty quickly what his manager wants so I think Archie Gray will be just fine I think what's going to be so fascinating is to see what he does with Bergvau because in a way, Bergvau is in some ways, in terms of like his ability to handle the ball, De Zerbe is going to love that.

48:45He's such a smooth technician, Bergvau, but also powerful with it. Although I think the other day he needs still a lot more work on coming into the left-hand side. He's not as comfortable as that, but that's another story. But in terms of stylistic ways, Bergvau is almost in some ways the antithesis to De Zerbe. because Bergvau quite often wants lots of touches on the ball, quite often goes the long way round. De Zerbe is not about that. Here it is about quick, quick, quick, get through, get through. But it'd be fascinating to see. We've all, I think, if Bergvau can add the two-touch incisiveness and the more efficiency to his game and his ball play, which if De Zerbe coaches that into him, Bergvau is going to become utterly phenomenal.

49:35He could do anyway. I'm sure he will do anyway. But those are the aspects that Bergvau, I think, is missing most. That efficiency and that sort of like willingness to play two-touch quickly. Those are the two biggest things he needs to work on, in my opinion. De Zerbe is all about, is so much about that. So it'll be interesting to see how that relationship happens. And if like De Zerbe coaches it into Bergvau and Bergvau takes it, you're going to end up with an incredibly talented round. Well, he's obviously very talented anyway, but an incredibly rounded midfielder. So that'll be really interesting to see how he uses Bergvau.

50:11Really interested. Are there any players you're worried about? I mean, we can both agree immediately if Vicario's days are numbered at Tom. That'll be... Yeah, you say that, but then like, you know, a lot of the Zerbi uses the goalkeeper in short build-up and Vicario was mostly fine doing that. I don't know, he's just so awkward, isn't he? The issue with Vicario is technique when going mid to long range. On the left foot as well, isn't it? Left foot and even his right foot. He loops a lot of passes. But then again, he's had a hernia for however long, so who knows? Yeah, maybe it was the hernia all along.

50:49Who knows? But no, he's never looked comfortable with his long range distribution or his medium range distribution. And that is an issue for De Zerbe because you are going to see now and again the keeper has to be able to quickly and flatly hit the fullback or hit whoever. I think it'll be interesting to see what he does with Xavi Simmons because one aspect of Xavi Simmons, I think he loses the ball a lot trying things. And sometimes he can be quite careless with his offloads. So sometimes his short-range passing won't go how it needs to go to his teammate. It can go behind them or just lose position quite loosely because he's quite a very aggressive mindset anyway.

51:32He's always on the front foot. So sometimes that can happen. I don't think Deserby will like that. So that'll be really interesting to see. But again, maybe that's the ideal coach for Xavi Simmons to clean that up. And then in which case, if he does clean it up, wow, what a bloody footballer you've got there. I mean, already a great footballer. But so it's going to be interesting. I guess the ones that would struggle under a coach like Deserby are the ones that don't have the discipline, the mental discipline. I don't mean discipline in terms of their bad eggs. I just mean like their brain doesn't work in the way of being able to repeat certain actions that he wants regimentally.

52:02Richarlison? No, he might be all right with that because Richarlison is probably going to be fine if like he knows what he needs to do and fine with that. Deserby doesn't tend to really what we've seen of like the creative maverick type where they're going to just do something that completely breaks the structure and do something out of the blue necessarily. or if they do do that it's like once in a blue moon he doesn't he doesn't want he wants his players to like know where they're going to be and what they're going to do so it might be the ones that might struggle are the ones that maybe lack the mental discipline and I don't mean that in a bad way like for example when I played right so I didn't play a very high level like a couple of like very low level non-league clubs I was never dedicated to playing to what I should do but madly I actually always really really struggled with patterns of play where it was quite a few different, the same routines repeatable because that didn't work the way my brain works in terms of I need to feel free.

53:01I need to feel, I need to rely on instinct and creativity that set patterns. I always used to struggle that even though people think, well, hang on, that's just following A, B, C, then that. But my brain just, it didn't really align. So if a player has that kind of thing, they might struggle. But most players nowadays have been developed, like mostly nearly all footballers academy and pro they are so used to even in manage the awful freedom doing certain patterns and routines that they'll be fine with that it's just whether they've got the discipline to you know consistently carry out the instructions that De Zerbe wants so that'll be really interesting give me your and this is the end now last question but give me your ceiling what can De Zerbe achieve at Tottenham and give me your floor what's the worst case in life Well, you should know me, Flab.

53:49I don't believe in ceilings and floors. Anything's possible. So you're going to have to find a way to reword that, mate. Okay, all right. Can we finish? Do we stay up under De Zerbi? Yes. And can next season we challenge for a top six place? Yeah. Okay. 18 months from now, our players completely... they haven't bought into the Zerbi system. It isn't working. And we are 15th in the league.

54:25Can that happen? Because if one, you know, we're talking about ceilings and floors, but you know, those, of course it can happen. Now, do you, if you ask me what I think, do I think that in 18 months time, Spurs are going to be 15th in the league under the Zerbi? No, I don't. I don't think that's what's going to happen. What do you see in your mind's eye? If you had to predict something.

54:45it's just, I'm going to give such a boring answer. It's just impossible to say because... Oh, come on. What do you think? I'll tell you why. I'll tell you why. It's impossible to say because most managers have ideas that they believe will win games, right? It's very rare. You're not going to find a manager that's going to set up a team and in his head, if it does work, they're still not going to win the game, right? So they try to set up their team to win the games. So what I'm trying to say is it's going to so much depend on the buy-in from the players. And then so many... I know you're saying Q &A.

55:19Harry, I want to know, as a fan, what would you think? We'll win it all. Is that going to make the... Come on. That's what I want to hear. We're going to win it all. They're going to invent a new competition just because we keep winning everything and they're going to win that as well. So there you go. They're going to say Luis Enrique wishes he could ball. That's what I think. Harry, you're a legend, mate. Thank you so much. How do we find you on social media? You should... Don't bother. Harry Brooks. No, you keep saying that every single thing you want. Stop saying that. How do you find you?

55:53I'll tell you what people should do, actually. If they're interested in actual business, and if anyone's got a son or a daughter or whatever it is that wants to improve at football, wherever they live in the world, the company's called RH10. So that's on Instagram, RH10Football. So if you're actually interested in potentially working with my company and improving at football, hopefully, or you know someone that is, then that's what I recommend. In terms of following me personally, don't bother. Yeah. That's fine. Like you got to use these opportunities, Harry. You're great at what you do and you, you're developing professional footballers.

56:24I'm uncomfortable. I don't know. I'll do it for you. So, so Harry is wrong. You'll, you'll, you'll send them to the wrong company. You'll get the name wrong. I know you will. No, I'll probably get the name wrong, but I'm going to tell you about how good Harry is. And the, the five episodes to learn my name. Well, Harry Brooke. Yeah. Do you know how many times I get tagged in a thing on Twitter now from that cricketer Harry Brook Of course because he's like not only is he like Harry Brook is it's like Harry Harry Brook is like he's like Wayne Rooney of cricket like when he was 18 Yeah and people keep spelling his name wrong they call him Brooks so like they just keep sending me like Harry Brooks I'm like it's not me Oh shit so I've been saying Harry I think I said Harry Brooks today didn't I Harry Brooks is correct It's correct.

57:11Exactly. So Harry Brook is the cricketer. That's the cricketer. Yes. All right. Look, but mate, it's not our fault. We're not, you know what I mean? It's not my fault if I get your name wrong when there's... Oh, no, no, of course. No, no, no, no. A podcast, I should never, ever do that to his guests ever. No, God forbid. No, no, listen, listen, Harry. What you've got to remember is I'm really invested in cricket as well. And I love Harry Brook. Oh, do you? Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, he's incredible. He's amazing. If you ever get into cricket, he's the kid. is I don't have the mental discipline to watch it for that long I just can't anyway Harry Brooks is uh he Harry what what are we doing here what one is it Brooks yeah that's what I said Harry Brooks actually works with works with um you know uh Premier League footballers and footballers in Europe that have signed for Premier League clubs this is not a joke Harry knows what he's doing so if you've got a kid you think this kid i i think my son could make it or my daughter can make it then you could absolutely benefit from harry's expertise and that's what you should say harry not don't worry i ain't got any any social media don't what you know don't worry about it right you know i actually employed a new marketer recently and they're going to be absolutely fuming if i do this kind of stuff and don't actually like absolutely get get an idea in your head about what you got to say about yourself promote yourself harry because you're Great.

58:35Thank you, mate. All right. Top, man.