The Lab | From Santos Chaos To Spurs Madness: Why Joao Souza’s Mentality Will Be Huge

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0:50Keep up, it's playoffs. Tune in Monday, March 23rd, 9 p.m. Eastern on ESPN2, and Tuesday, March 24th, 7pm Eastern on ESPN and on the ESPN app. In this episode of The Lab, we're joined by South American football expert Tim Vickery as Spurs close in on 19-year-old Santos left-back Jao Souza. Tim explains why fans feel trepidation about South American imports and then makes the case for why this one's different. Souza came through a brutal relegation scrap with training ground invasions and still stood out as someone who just doesn't hide on the football pitch. We talk about rawness versus readiness, how he compares to a doggy, what his game looks like on the pitch, and whether Spurs should throw him in immediately.

1:33Is he ready for Premier League football right now? Plus, we talk a bit about Brazil's wider issues at fullback and in central midfield. And of course, we have to talk a bit about Richarlison, don't we? If you enjoy the Lab podcast, please consider giving us five stars on Spotify. It literally takes two seconds and makes the world of difference, especially when trying to attract the calibre of guests like today's. Enjoy the pod.

2:03I'm delighted to welcome to the lab South American football expert Tim Vickery because Tottenham has perhaps some news. We've signed, well, we're very close to signing a brand new left back. Tim, is it fair, do you think it's fair that perhaps some fans might have a kind of, perhaps will get less excited about signing from South America coming to play in the Premier League. They already made left-backing like Anthony Robinson, for example. Is that sort of trepidation, I guess, fair, do you think, Tim? Yeah, I think it probably is, yeah. And Tottenham have been burnt a few times. You know, it's always a gamble and luck is always part of it.

2:46And some good players haven't come off at Tottenham. Sometimes that happens. And the overall mood, it seems to me anyway, from the other side of the Atlantic, that the overall mood at the moment is so down that I can understand that. But let me tell you something. That is, the overall mood being down is something that this new signing is very, very used to. Really? Yes, we are talking, of course, about Souza. Yes, of course, Gio Souza. The 19-year-old left-back who is on the verge of joining. Now, there's not a lot behind him because it's less than a complete season in Brazil's first division.

3:37But he came through it really, really well. Really well. In very, very difficult circumstances. What were those? Well, he plays for Santos. Now, you're considerably younger than I am. But let me tell you that when I was a kid, there was only one Brazilian club that you'd heard of. And that was Santos. And that was because of Pelé.

3:57Tim Vickery:You know, for a fair while, you know, during the 60s and so on, they were probably the best club side in the world. And when I came over here, I just thought Santos were giants. And they're really not. You know, Santos is a port city of less than half a million, which by Brazilian standards is small. It's a small city, you know. And so this leaves them nowadays caught in a bind because on the one hand, Santos have this unbelievable tradition and the fans have grown up on that and grown up on tales of that. And on the other, they're a small city club. There is no club like them in Brazil. And now that the financial gaps have opened up, unless they get some major investor coming in, it's very, very hard to see how they can compete.

4:53Santos on a good day, it's an hour down the road, down the hill from Sao Paulo. And Sao Paulo is one of the world's biggest cities, around 20 million. And there's Santos, half a million.

5:05Tim Vickery:so you begin to see the problem but the fans find it very the stadium is tiny really I mean it's 16 ,000 you know the stadium and it's but it's very very hard for the fans to accept the current position of the club so they were relegated at the end of 23 that was the first time it had ever happened They spent 24 winning promotion. He played once or twice, but really his season was 25. When they spent the entire year struggling against relegation and they just pulled away. And the fixtures were quiet to them last two or three games. They just managed to pull away. But it did look for a long time as if they were going down.

5:54Tim Vickery:And the fans were going ape. I mean, Brazilian fans are brutal. so you get all things like the training ground has been invaded by angry fans. So any kind of malcontent that he will see in N17, he's already been through it all in Santos. And this is the point, really. This is the point I want to make. That's pressure. Throwing young players in to that. Now, that's a tough gig. but he came through that season really really well very very impressive indeed it probably palings of insignificance that the kind of pressure at Spurs it's different right because we're much more I would imagine you wouldn't necessarily see Spurs fans invading the training ground trying to get other players or wherever it might be so if he's been able to have a good season in that environment that does bode well and he will have to um like you say play in adversity because things as you're a Spurs fan as well Tim I am yeah yeah yeah right so you know you're completely attuned to the situation we're in um so he must he must have stood out to some degree then if if it was in South America from a South American perspective is this a big deal is this is this being talked about as a significant transfer are people surprised by it happening too soon or or does it make sense over there well this is the way that the market has been operating for a while now, you know, and the European clubs want them as young as possible.

7:30And quite often, that's something that's absolutely doomed to failure. You're bringing over people who are too young. And I got lots of flack from Tottenham fans when the centre forward from Argentina come over, Veliz. Veliz.

7:45Tim Vickery:Yeah, he's nowhere near at this point. You know, he might get there perhaps, but he's nowhere near. And I got loads of stick from that. Did you? Yeah, I did, yeah. I mean, look what's just happened with West Ham and Luis Guillermo. You know, they paid over 20 million for this winger with one professional goal behind him. Now, perhaps luckily they found a buyer. You know, he's off to sporting. So they've been able to cut their losses and get some of their money back. But they've got nothing out of him. And there are quite a lot of those. So the premature move, or the very, very early move, is the way that the market operates.

8:22Tim Vickery:And it's also the way that the players have grown up. And in the case of Santos, I think Santos were quite keen, possibly to keep him, but they need money. So let's set off an auction. But it seems that it was the player who really wanted it now. But is this a huge surprise, him attracting this attention? No, not at all. Not at all. He's been continually linked over these last few months. He's been continually linked with big clubs in Europe and in Saudi Arabia. So he was one of those who you know, when you're watching him over here, enjoy it while it lasts because you know he's not going to be here for very long.

9:12So you looked at Vélez and you knew that he was nowhere near ready. I mean I cannot believe and I've watched him play and I don't want to slate a young player it's not about that I cannot believe we've scouted him and thought that he could in any way compete at the Premier League level he was he was really poor and which is a shame because he seems like a lovely lad and he was desperate to play but he just wasn't so far off yeah how do you feel about how do you feel about Sosa

9:44Tim Vickery:much much better Oh, good. No, I think he's terrific. I didn't see him until, because he didn't start off the season in the team. I didn't see him. We had that break for the Club World Cup. And I saw him straight afterwards, first time I saw him. And I was looking back at me notes the other day on the game that he played. It was a game against Flamengo. And I've written there, you know, in all the notes you make about the game, I've written, Souza, worth watching. So, right from the start, I'm thinking, wow. There's something there. Now, he is obviously extremely raw. It's less than really a full season behind him.

10:24And when he was fit, he was first choice in most of the games. Didn't always play the 90. Quite often, they would bring him off towards the end. So you are dealing with someone who is raw. And right now, at this moment in time, I don't see him as a significant step up. on, say, Udogi, for example. But long-term, I think he's terrific. And something that we have heard over the last couple of months, he is on Carlo Ancelotti's radar screen for the Brazil national team. Now, that is a little bit premature. Who's ahead? Who's left? Well, see, he's very, very unlikely to get into the squad for the World Cup.

11:13but fullback has been a problem position for Brazil for a while now. You know, the fullbacks used to be the wingers, you know, your Cafus and Roberto Carlos. Yeah, of course.

11:24Tim Vickery:Once the wingers came back, it's been tough for Brazil to produce fullbacks because what are they looking for? You know, if they're not going to be wingers anymore, what are they going to be? So there's been this kind of existential crisis about what is a fullback? and the left back position is one that hasn't really been nailed down and maybe, and I suspect he might go with the Italian experience of Alexandro, you know, now back at Flamengo, but, you know, played for Juventus and made his name, Alexandro, at the same club. He didn't start at Santos, but that's where he made his name. There are one or two others in the mix, Douglas Santos, who's in Russia, that are called Kaio Inhiki, who plays in France.

12:07but no one has absolutely nailed it down and certainly it would be a real push for Souza to get in now, a real push and he'd really have to hit the ground running in 17 but certainly for beyond he would certainly be a player who is on their radar screen because physique, ability to attack ability to defend. So he's quite complete in that sense. He's probably at this stage a little bit better going forward than he is defending, but he can defend. He's not one of those old-style Brazilian fullbacks who are much more wingers. He's not one of those. He can defend. There is ability there and there is physical capacity.

12:58And you want that from a fullback. You want him to be able to go outside and hit the byline. You want him to be getting on the far post. so I'm excited about him but it's an excitement tempered by the realisation that he's very young, he's very raw and just the temperature difference that he's going to go through at the moment and a long way from home as well I mean you can testify to that there's this idea it's generally sort of applied in big business but when it can be applied to transfers and manager exchanges, that it can take up to 2.2 years to achieve the standards that you had achieved previously in a previous club because the environment, the coaches, the tactics, everything's different.

13:47Add to that moving continent and halfway across the world, there is a risk that the level of expectation is high and that perhaps he won't be given the time and grace that he needs as such a young player. I just wanted to ask you, I found that interesting about, you mentioned that sort of like an existential crisis around trying to figure out what a fullback is in Brazil. It seems from afar that there is an issue with what Brazil are now. My idealistic nature of what Brazil was growing up was Cafu, it was Roberto, Carlos, it was obviously R9 and Dunga in midfield. and all these players that growing up, I was like, this team is unstoppable and has been since the 70s.

14:33Whereas you look at it now, and I think there was a time last season where three Wolves players started for Brazil and it just, it didn't kind of, is there, what's going on there? Like the idea of Richarlison and Thiago being their point of attack to me doesn't make sense. Well, there's a crisis in a few positions and they're very good in some positions. And the goalkeepers, for example, Brazil has become a mass producer of goalkeepers. Centre-back's terrific. They've got more wide strikers than they know what to do with. They've got so many of them.

15:08Tim Vickery:Centre-forward is and has been a problem for a while now, which is bizarre. Although a few candidates are maybe emerging, but there's no one absolutely outstanding. But I think probably the biggest crisis is central midfield. where it's hard to think of the last truly great all-round midfielder that Brazilian football has produced. And this comes from the time when they were playing the fullbacks as wingers because then someone has to cover. And they ended up, and this has got nothing to do with European football. This was a dynamic that happened in Brazil. first, really, it was first seen early 80s, where the central midfielders on Brazil used to field the best passes of the ball in the world in central midfield.

16:07And if you look at, say, Gerson from 1970, he couldn't run, but blimey, he could ping a pass

16:14Tim Vickery:and he could run the game from there. And essentially what they did to give themselves protection, to balance out the team when the fullbacks are just attackers is to play centre-backs in front of the centre-backs. There was a split of the midfield and their interpretation of 4-4-2 became just a group of twos. You get two centre-backs, two attacking fullbacks, two midfielders only defend and two midfielders only attack and then two strikers. So, I mean, Gilberto Silva, for example, and Arsenal got more out of him than Brazil ever did. But yeah, he played nearly 100 times for Brazil never crossed the halfway line apart from set pieces and rarely played a penetrative pass.

16:57Tim Vickery:And he was there to block, to block space. And he was a centre-back. He started off as a centre-back. He ended up as a centre-back. And this was in the position where Brazil used to have the best passing midfielders. Part of this comes from ideology. Part of it comes from, and they were so surprised when the Guardiola revolution struck because they had gone down the road that possession-based passing football is not possible anymore given the physical evolution of the game. So what you want to do is bulk up in central midfield. You want to meet the physical challenge there and quick breaks down the flanks with these attacking fullbacks.

17:36Tim Vickery:So they weren't looking. I mean, say, take Jorginho, the central midfielder, you know, Napoli and Chelsea. Oh, sorry. So yes, of course, yeah, deep line playmaker. Yeah, yeah. And he had to go abroad because there was no way that he could have had a career in Brazil because they weren't looking for that kind of player. He's not athletic enough. He's not marking. He's not running. He's not chasing. He's not harrying, you know. So when I raise this point about no great all-round midfielders, some people say, well, Kaká. Kaká's a player for the last 30. You know, Kaká's not deep line. He's not box to box.

18:16Tim Vickery:He's last 30. You know, so that... When they got done by Belgium in 18, which really shines a light on two of the problem areas, there's no Kevin De Bruyne for Brazil. There's no one like that. And there's no Lukaku. You know, this Belgium, this tiny little country has got those players and Brazil hasn't. So there's been a problem in certain positions. Centre forward, I think, is just one of those cyclical things. Although the reason that they've been producing so many wide strikers is that, and this is beginning to change, foreign coaches have come in and they've really raised their level over here.

18:56Tim Vickery:But with the defensive lines operating so deep and so much space between the lines, that striker in wide space, he had so much time and space for acceleration. So it was relatively easy for him to make a name for himself. So that's the reason they produced so many. And sometimes, you know, the space between the lines is so big. Like, you feel sorry for the centre forward. He's operating on a different landmass from everyone else. You know? So, they didn't create the conditions, perhaps, to create great centre forwards or great central midfielders. But still, if they get... Ancelotti is trying to play four up front.

19:36Tim Vickery:Whether he'll be able to do that in the intense heat of the World Cup, I don't know. But he's seen what Brazil have got, where they're good. So he wants to get as much of that into the team as possible. And clearly central midfield is one area where they're not as good as the other top teams, and they're not nearly as good as they used to be. Yeah. Spring is here, and the shopping list is long. Time to make a Lowe's run. Buy three bags, get three free of stay green one-cubic-foot garden soil. Plus, right now members can earn four times the points on an eligible purchase. Start spring off strong with these deals and more.

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21:29I've got a couple more questions about Sosa. But before that, because we're talking about Richarlison, will he make the plane, do you think? Well, it's a tricky one, this, because Ancelotti loves him, really loves him. They work together at Everton.

21:47Tim Vickery:And he's given him every chance. And his goal-scoring record for Brazil really isn't bad. He's got 20. He's not bad for Spurs when he starts. Yeah, indeed. Indeed, yeah. But it hasn't been very good recently. So he's given him every chance. He keeps calling him up. This is being criticised. and it's going to be the locals don't like it yeah yeah because he's not producing you know and he's so he's being seen a little bit as as teacher's pet you know you're only getting in because of because of because of the Ancelotti connection so it's really up to him now and this is where Tottenham Hotspur could and should benefit it's because he he absolutely loves playing for his country you know he talks about the fact that when he's out there training he's imagining and he's playing for Brazil against Argentina in a World Cup final.

22:40So he would be devastated to miss out. So I think that he will be straining everything to justify his inclusion. There's only one squad to be called up before the World Cup squads are named. They play France and Croatia in the States in March. He's got to get on that one. He's got to get on that one. So Tottenham should be the beneficiaries of a player who's going to have the bit between his teeth. I think we've seen definitely a determination that hasn't been there previously. And I would say he's one of the players that you could talk about positively this season when there hasn't been many.

23:18Tim Vickery:I think that the problem with him previously, I don't think it was so much lack of determination. I think he suffered long term from what Everton did to him in 21, when it was obvious that they were going to get rid of him. Because they let him have his way. and they let him play the Copa America and the Olympics in 21. No one ever is allowed to do both. You choose one or you choose the other. But Everton let him do both. And I don't think he's been the same player since because injuries. He did have many niggled injuries. Exactly. It catches up with you. I mean, Alexis Sanchez, I know he played for the rivals, but I watched him all the way up.

23:57Tim Vickery:Fantastic player. Really, really fantastic player. and would never ever a luxury player. And if you look at Sanchez, he played World Cup in 14. He played Copa America all the way to the final in 15. He played an extra Copa America all the way to the final in 16. And he played a Confederations Cup in 17. And he's never been the same player since. And so I think what happened to Richarlison in 21 echoed on for a while. I think that lack of break is clearly, for me, a contributory factor in all those little niggling injuries that stopped him building up momentum at Tottenham. I really think that we're going to see a massive impact and fallout from the Club World Cup.

24:43Maybe not this time, but if they do increase it to every two years, this is going to be a rolling issue because there will be no players not getting any breaks. Squads are going to have to be gigantic. I mean, they're all getting bigger and bigger just to navigate the problems that these competitions and overplayings are going to cause. You mentioned about Souza, you know, perhaps not being at a doggies level, which is absolutely fine from my perspective. I think a doggie is a good left back. Spence can fill in there. Do you think he's good enough to make a start in the Premier League this season?

25:17Yeah. Yeah. I would certainly want to throw him in just to see what you've got. Without any shadow of doubt. Yes. Okay. Yes. Now that's based not only on ability, it's also based on that strength of character. Yes. Yeah. And that's obviously playing in difficult arenas when things aren't going his way. But does he demonstrate on the pitch? How does that demonstrate his character and his abilities on the pitch? Is he calm in possession? Does he like to take players on? How would you describe his play style?