THE LAB | Inside De Zerbi’s Marseille with Julien Laurens

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0:55Julien Laurens:Imported by Masked Jägermeister, U.S., White Plains, New York. Today we're joined by broadcaster and journalist Julian Ruens to dig into Tottenham's appointment of Roberto De Zerbi and why it feels both exciting and slightly terrifying. We talk through his time at Marseille, why his football can be brilliant and why things so often turn volatile around him and whether Spurs have just hired a genius or lit a fuse on another explosion. There's loads in here on his tactical demands, his clashes with players in the press, his need for control, and which Spurs players might thrive or struggle underneath him.

1:28A proper deep dive into one of the most fascinating managers in football. If you enjoy this episode of The Lab, please consider giving us five stars. More importantly, though, follow the podcast. That means whenever we release one of these, it will go straight to wherever you receive your podcast and you can listen straight away.

1:59hello julian many thanks for coming on the lab thank you for having me it's a pleasure absolutely uh so uh sort of incredible news to some degree that revert to the zerby has joined tottenham hotspur the opportunity was there because we became desperate but um it it still feels like while I consider him an excellent tactician and manager it still feels like a potential fusion that could blow up is that is that a fair do you think yeah I mean yeah the

2:33Julien Laurens:blowing up because he's such a an intense coach I think he's a he's an amazing coach really I agree with you tactician is is the right word for him I think he's got amazing qualities you don't achieve what he's achieved in the game certainly in terms of playing style and identity and dna and things like that if you're not very good anyway you know sure you can look at what he's won and that's nothing uh but but really over the kind of manager that he is i think he's very good very good managers always improve their teams that's what i always say even when you're in crisis even when you have to fight to not go down and things like that so i think he will improve Spurs the question is at some point because we've seen that in the last two jobs that he had for Marseille and Brighton things tend to go wrong because of his personality and how intense he is and hot-headed he is really so that might happen at some point with Spurs or not five years is a long deal he was also saying in Marseille that he was super happy to stay five or six years there and in the end after 18 months he was gone so we'll have to see but I think he's an amazing coach I think he's really good for Spurs I've got I wonder why he said no in February and then he said yes in March something clearly changed there but you know that's another possibly money and desperation and suddenly he was given sort of the leeway and the opportunities that he wouldn't have been afforded previously can I ask you about what the sort of Marseille side that he walked into when he took over yeah I mean there was they were it was not a bad team really it was a bit not to go into too much details but it was a club that was running a very weird way in that every six months during the international during the the transfer windows they used to let go 10 players and sign 10 new players every six months whoever was on the bench that's how Pablo Longoria the president at the time used to work that's fine I think so there's a lot of players that you go and get who are successes others who don't it doesn't really work out things like that but there was a lot of instability but that's what they wanted and for the Zerbi he was the same he obviously did really well in his first season finishing second behind PSG although they were far far away from the top from Paris but they still finished second which was the job that he had to do to go back into Champions League for example they had Champions League this season that ended up as a disaster and then in the league despite some really good things that he did like beating PSG back in September at the Ville Drum and things like that the more the season was going the more intense things were going the more you could tell that at some point it was going to blow like to go back to your first question and that's exactly what happened I think in the end he ran out of energy things were too it was too much even for him too much intensity Marcel is such an intense city football wise he's such an intense guy there was a lot of things that were not happening and he could not find solutions anymore to all the problems that his team had and that's why he decided to leave and I think at some point with somebody like him this was always likely to happen anywhere wherever he goes including a Spurs Do you think there was a misalignment between the kind of players that he wanted to bring in and the sort of structure to how recruitment happened at Marseille that sort of was dissimilar to what he would have drove for.

6:04Because something happened at Brighton, if you remember, that Brighton and England, as you know, are considered to be one of the best at work in the transfer market and identifying talent and then bringing that talent in, whereas De Zervi wanted much more control over how that process happened and to choose these right players, which was never going to work in the Brighton. set up. In Marseille, and I profess I don't know a lot about the Marseille but what was there, you mentioned like the high influx and removal of player, but what was there any issues with the transfers process?

6:41Julien Laurens:No, not really. He was involved in everything. They signed all the players that he wanted. The good thing I think for him in this kind of environment is that if he didn't fancy someone after two months, he knew that in the next transfer window, that guy would go and they would replace him. So for example, he really wanted Angel Gomez from Lille. He really wanted Matt O 'Reilly from Brighton. So he got them and very quickly, he realized or thought or decided that they were not good enough for Marseille, for his style of football. He gave them a couple of chances. I thought he was quite brutal in his assessment of them, very quickly kind of dismissing their quality.

7:22Julien Laurens:And so they arrived in the summer. They were gone in January. In January, he wanted to replace them, obviously, with new players. So here comes Nguyenieri, here comes Timber, the other Timber. And, you know, players that he felt, yeah, that's much better for us. But one, at Brighton, that was obviously, as you said, and rightly impossible to do. At Spurs, it would be impossible to do. So if you sign somebody in August that you give a five-year deal with a transfer fee that would be quite decent, right? And more importantly, huge wages. You can't just say two months later, oh, Gareth is not good enough.

7:59Julien Laurens:I need to get rid now and get me another player as good as him that will cost as much as him. And even if you sell Gareth well, six months later or four months later, it just doesn't work like that. So I can understand why he's so, what's the word? For him, transfers are so important because of his style of football. he needs the right players to be able to implement his style. I get that, no problem. But just get them right the first time because you won't be able to buy, sell, buy, sell, buy, sell when you are spurs. Also, coaching. You have to coach the players to do what you want them to do as well.

8:33I saw there was a massive flashpoint that's been going around all over the place the last couple of days where Vishmeela Sarr in training, he requested his players to take less touches, move the ball quicker and more quickly. and they were doing these drills on the training pitch and Sarr held onto it for maybe three or four seconds longer than he was asked to do. And there was a massive explosion. De Zerbi essentially said, call your agent, find another football club. Looking at that, there's two ways you could look at it. That is passion. You're forcing and expecting players to play at the very top of their ability and there is no room to move.

9:13Or you could say that is crazy and you've exploded an opportunity to potentially use him. It's a fine tight rope. He seems to walk.

9:22Julien Laurens:Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So that's Ismail Kony, not Ismail Assar. But you're right. Your point stays the same. My bad, sorry. Yeah, no, no, no. Don't worry. But he wanted him from Watford. Kony had had a good season at Watford. He's a young player, but still Canadian international. There were a few clubs after him. He chose Marseille, I think, for something like£13 million or something like that or something like that. So it's not, you know, it's a significant signing for a French club, even for Marseille, it's quite significant signing. And yeah, and that clip, I think, just sums up really well also who is Deserby in many ways.

9:59Julien Laurens:First, we said the intensity, how hot it is, if there's something he doesn't like, whether that's with the players, people above him, with his staff, he will shout, he will go mad. This is why he's been like that forever. Even when he was a player, he was like that. As a coach, he was like that. So this will happen again at Spurs and everywhere else where he will go. Sorry, no, sorry. No, no, just the final one is the style of football, as you said, is very particular, very complicated. Not every player at Spurs. Certainly, okay, let's think about next season because I think he will have to be a bit more pragmatic now, even if he has a bit of time to prepare for the Sunderland game it's not enough to put everything he wants in place for a team that is fighting not to go down really so he needs results more than style and I think he will make sure that he gets that but when he wants to implement his style it will take time.

10:55Julien Laurens:Some players I promise you in the Spurs squad will never get it some just won't be good enough in terms of football IQ maybe in terms of technicality tactically all of that Some will get it straight away and they will click and them and De Zerbi will have a great relationship because he has a great relationship with players that understand him and that he knows and understands the system. Others will be out of their depth. Others will be a bit in between. So some good things. De Zerbi will know, okay, he can do this, but he can't do that. Things like that. And obviously the ones who won't be good enough will go and some new players will arrive who De Zerbi think suits his style.

11:34Julien Laurens:but that clip of Kone and him and that argument yeah sums him up so well what was the what happened after that incident did he play for him much again or was that the end no yeah no I think he's then I think he was gone no longer after they found him a club in Italy where he's doing actually quite well but yeah once stuff like this happened you don't play for the Zerb Sassoulo yeah exactly yeah Sassoulo so you mentioned there's a couple of things I want to pick you up on there the level, the skill level needed and the pitch IQ needed to play in his system. What is it that is so complicated? Say you probably need less pitch IQ to play a Sean Dyche type of football.

12:20No disrespect, Tim. But does Erbi ask something else? What is that?

12:25Julien Laurens:Yeah, there's a lot of things. Everything is so detailed. For example, from your build-up phase to every phase really of on the pitch and of the game. The build-up is the one that us here in England in the Premier League have looked at the most. In France, in Marseille, I have to say, it never got to that kind of highs in terms of playing style. It was really good at times. He had Mason Greenwood who was incredible on the pitch. No problem. But collectively, we never got to the level that he got at Brighton first season, really. And maybe because the players in Marseille were not as good as you know the players that he had at Brighton or some of them but that was first of all that's the thing but yeah the build-up fair is that famous box between your two centre-backs and your two kind of holding midfielders or your double pivot is very keen you bait for the opponent to come at you and then you literally go through them with your passes and your movements so you have to understand where you have to be if the ball is on the right who is on the ball depending on your position where you have to come when you come inside when you have to stay wide when you come short when you go in behind all of this is very very detailed very precise it has to be precise same with your line of four at the back the role of your goalkeeper so there's a lot of things like that right now I don't think either Kinski or Vickaio can play for example the Zerbi ball for me it's impossible literally tell me what do they have to do?

13:56Julien Laurens:they have to be much better on the ball than you know than what they are right now and you don't improve you know you don't improve that I would have said the same for my boy Hugo Lloris who I love dearly but who could just was not that kind of player that kind of goalkeeper in terms of distribution Verbruggen still are much better in distribution than Vickaglio and Kinski for example will ever be so that would be interesting to see what he does with the goalkeeper again not so much now because now he will have to do with but for next season so there it's a much much more complicated football than anything Tudor or even Frank would have ever done.

14:33What players do you think also might struggle and who might succeed? Is it technical midfielders that are comfortable with the ball? Would Paulina have a role to play who's a destroyer?

14:47Julien Laurens:Yeah, I think Paulina more difficult for sure. You need players like McAllister and Gross. Really, if you want to use this, you need centre-backs. Romero, you have him because I think he's a good ball playing centre-back as much as I don't really rate him that much because I think he let you down too many times this season and in past seasons and as your captain I think his attitude at times has been disgraceful but he's there he's better on the ball than Van der Veen he's better on the ball than Danso he's better on the ball than Dragosin by far so Romero is there I think Gray would be perfect for the Zerbi and you could imagine what the Zerbi could do with Archie Gray.

15:32Julien Laurens:For example, I think Poro, no problem. On the left-hand side, I think Kudogi could do well for the Zerbi and also both Italians. I think Bergwahl could be amazing for the Zerbi, you know, in a slightly higher position than in that double pivot. Saar could be very good. I think Saar, Gray, I know they're very young. So the Zerbi might look at them and say, they're not ready now. I need more established, more experienced players for those key positions. Richarlison, I don't think so. I'm sorry. But that is, for me, not a Dezherby number nine at all. But Kudus can potentially be. You could see what Dezherby could do with Kudus.

16:12Julien Laurens:Although, I'm happy to wait and see with him. I think Odober, I think Dezherby would love Odober, for example, who for me has so, so much potential. So there's Solanke, I think, could do really well for Dezherby. He's the kind of guy I think he's smart. He's good at everything. I know he should be better at everything. but he's already good at everything. He just needs a bit of a boost somewhere, a bit more confidence. And I think Solanke can thrive really under De Zerbi. So there's some, not for him. I think others will be good. And don't forget, there will be investment because there's no way De Zerbi is coming right now without already thinking about next season in the Premier League and how much they will have to invest.

16:49Yeah, yeah. I mean, there has been a commitment, whether you believe it or not, from the owners to spend in the summer in a way that we haven't done previously and adjust our wage bill so that we can compete to some degree. I don't know what competing means anymore. You know, what for Tottenham, what's where we're a strange football club. Can I ask you about Xavi Simmonds quickly? Do you think he, would he like fit in his system?

17:11Julien Laurens:That's a really interesting one. I think that's one, that's why I left him out in the funeral that I mentioned earlier. I saw him in Paris. He arrived really young for us. The potential and the talent is, I mean, it's quite obvious. You see it. there's still a long way to go and especially in a De Zerbi team because like we said for now it might be doing the job that De Zerbi wants in terms of I need you to take the ball and make something happen I need you to be chaos for the opposition because they don't know which way you're going to go and things like that which I think Chami Simmons can be he's such a like a street player in many ways he gets the ball and then he doesn't know what he's going to do next so nobody knows and then he goes and sometimes something good happens Too often, since he arrived at Spurs, nothing much happens, but I think he's that kind of guy, right?

18:01Julien Laurens:So for now, it can work. After that, in a very structured, deserving style of football team, I'm not sure he's got his... Or he will have to mature very quickly, to grow very quickly in his assessment of his own game, but the team's game. And I'm just not sure he's got that. Yeah, because he is quite a sensitive young man. He does react on the pitch. You can see when he doesn't get his way, he can throw his hands up quite a lot and I wonder if that sort of potential I don't know if it's so good or passion whether Deserbi will will like that or not I think you know just to finish on that that Kone Deserbi clip in Marseille I think you could you could easily see that with the Chavis Simmons for example you know at training Deserbi has asked for something there's two, three, four four too many touches and then he goes after him especially I think which was the case for Kone by the way it's not the first time it's not like this came out of the blue.

18:55Julien Laurens:You know, for a few weeks now, they tried to get Kone to release the ball a bit quicker. Him and others, but you know, to understand really everything that Dezebi wanted him to do. And I think that was kind of the final stroke because again, he didn't do it. And this time, just leashed out. So that's what the whole story is, is that he's consistently unable to deliver what, it wasn't just one moment and that was it. No, no. Okay. do you remember Conte's interview after the Southampton game you might not right Spurs had just been we were free one up away at Southampton it was Conte's final game and he exploded right yeah and he said um um he's I'm paraphrasing but he says essentially the players um it's too comfortable for them it's too there's never any blame there's no pressure they just play and play and then whatever happens, happens.

19:47And at the time, it was hard. It was always difficult to read what Conte was saying when he was doing his press conferences in English, as you have to do in England. It was clear that the language, it wasn't always, he wasn't comfortable with it. And it was really difficult with Spurs fans at the time to really understand what he was trying to say. But in this, as time has passed, it's abundantly clear what he was trying to say now, both about the club, you know, 25 years, no trophies, but the same owners, that's clear now. And more of that, the environment the players have to play in Tottenham is almost pressureless compared to Arsenal, unfortunately, compared to other big clubs.

20:29This will be a pressure cooker, right? This will be a level of expectation the players wouldn't have experienced since perhaps Conte.

20:37Julien Laurens:Yeah, maybe. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He would be very, very demanding. There's no doubt. He would be like that. it would be on their case. You have to work hard. There's a lot of information to come. You know, I remember some of the players talking about Conte being there and how much work they did on a daily basis was unbelievable, even compared to Mourinho before. So De Zerbi would be like that. But don't forget as well, De Zerbi is not a winner. He's not a born winner like Conte was or like Mourinho was. As a player, he never won anything and really never had the career that probably his talents should have got him to get.

21:10Julien Laurens:but as a manager he's never won anything in bar maybe like I think a cup with Shakhtar so Conte at least Conte came and this is what I've won this is my trophy cabinet it was huge and filled with everything De Zerbi has no trophy cabinet in his house there's just nothing in his house there's no trophies nothing Ange has more trophies than him so the pressure you're right will come but not from hey I'm a winner I need you to win this is how we're going to win because there's none of that from De Zerbi De Zerbi will say we have to be better we have to win we want to win all of that he would get the right mentality I was saying that last night on ESPN because he's such an intense guy you would want to fight for him you would want to go to you know to go and give everything for him that's sure because he's got that charisma he's got all eyes he's a great guy again you know super intense a bit like Conte on that level sure on the winning side level you know for him he won as many games that he's lost at Brighton in two seasons you know we're not talking about somebody who's won a lot of things and had incredible seasons where this is the reality too.

22:16Julien Laurens:So that's part of his own journey and that's why he wanted to come back to the Premier League to a top six club, which he's done now with Spurs. I know the situation right now, but that's not where you should be anyway. But he also wants to come to a club like Spurs to win things. He knows he has to win things now because we've all praised him. Look at the football he plays. He's Greg Guardiola saying that he was one of the most influential coaches in the last 20 years, which is true. No problem. but he's got nothing to show for it really in terms of trophies. So that's the pressure that he will put on the club and on the players is as big as the pressure that the players and the club will put on him to win something too.

22:52At 46, he's relatively young. So he's quite, you know, you kind of think he's sort of been in the peripheries of our, you know, some people, if you're that far reaching and learned, might have been aware of his time as Shakhtar but given the unfortunate nature of him having to leave that job and go to Brighton. It feels like he has been around for a while. And it almost feels like the right time for him and Tottenham, given the situation we're in. However, if you actually look at his experience, it's minimal. I know he's been at lots of different football clubs managing at sort of lower levels in Italy.

23:28But, you know, this is the biggest challenge he's had thus far. And he's going to have to negotiate some of these relationships. he can't I don't think he can walk around like a wrecking ball like he has done previously that said the restrictions at Brighton must have been significant they like the way they work which is

23:44Julien Laurens:yeah yeah you're right that's a really good point and I would think one of the reasons why he also came now one because he didn't want to let this opportunity go which I can completely understand ideally he would have rather to come in the summer a bit like Amorim would have much rather arrived at United in the summer than in November for example for obvious reasons but it's also because because he's going to be the boss. I cannot see any different scenario for him to accept that job now, apart from the money, as you mentioned, and there's a lot of it, sure. But also, he knows or he's been promised or guaranteed, I don't know what the right word is, that investment will come in terms of player signing, that he will be the boss.

24:23Julien Laurens:And yeah, Lange is your sporting director. There might be another guy coming, sure. Vinay at the top, the Lewis family, sure. but that he would be the boss which he never was really certainly not Brighton and Marseille he had a lot to say but there was still a very strong sporting director in Mehdi Benatia a very strong president who was doing you know he was clearly that was his direction that the club was going towards but he was still he had a big role I think I suppose he would be the boss I think he demanded to be the boss to come he would have a lot to say on those transfers and investment that he I'm sure would have asked to be significant so that would be that would be different but you're right 46 is because he stopped his career so young and started as a coach so young that it feels like he's been hit for a while which he has but yeah 46 is still young and I think he's still learning you know Just on what you just said there was really interesting because we do have a bit of a vacuum at Tottenham that's been left by Daniel Levy and Paratici going back to Italy and Lange the reputation certainly amongst the Spurs fan base is that he probably isn't the kind of demanding and sort of front foot leading sporting director will create a culture at the club and the managers will fit into that and the players will all fit into that.

25:40We're missing that at Spurs, structure and culture at Spurs completely. So there is a gap for effectively a manager, like more of an old school manager, like De Zerbi perhaps wants to be. And Pochettino would have been if he'd come back. He would have wanted control over all of these decisions and the players coming in. that the more modern model of having a sporting director or director of football and a structure that filters down and the coach is just a part of the machine doesn't exist at Spurs. So there is an opportunity for him to... Yeah, I agree. Yeah, that's a great point.

26:14Julien Laurens:Yeah, I agree completely. Suddenly I was told that that was the way things will happen. De Zerbe is obsessed with football. He watches everything. He knows everything. Everyone, every young player, everything. he's just like that a lot of other managers are not he's like that maybe because he's still young still young enough really maybe he's those kind of modern coaches as well who are a bit like that compared to slightly older coaches like I don't know Ancelotti or Klopp who would not be so obsessed with football to the point of watching second division games in other leagues and stuff like that but he's like that so that obsession I think if that's the role that he wants and that he's been agreed to get then I think yeah I think he will fit but again we have no previous on him doing that kind of work because like we said even in Italy it was not so much like that where Italian clubs have much more of a defined structure like you mentioned Brighton certainly not as we saw and even in Marseille like I mentioned before I've got just a couple more questions for you Julian the the press room in England, as you'll know, obviously, is how you manage that is massively important and how you're perceived and the amount of time you're given, the amount of patience you're given is often even magnitude or reduced by how well you answer questions.

27:40Thomas Frank was terrible, for example. What was he like in France dealing with the press?

27:46Julien Laurens:He had a lot of clashes. So this season, before leaving Marseille, last season was a bit different because things were going really well and stuff. the season was much more, much more difficult. I don't know a French media that didn't clash with him. His answer at press conferences were at times, you could see, yeah, his answer were clashing on purpose. You don't understand football. You don't understand me. In France, it's like this. In France, it's like that. We at Marseille, we this, we that. Really super confrontational, which I don't think helped him. to the Grand City. Do you think he was like needlessly, it was almost like...