The Lab | Inside The Fall Of Daniel Levy

0:00This podcast is part of the Sports Social Podcast Network. This week on The Lab we are joined by senior news reporter of the athletic Matt Slater to unpack one of the most dramatic periods in Tottenham Hotspur's history. We discuss Daniel Levy's departure, the power struggles that shaped Spurs for decades, the role of the Lewis family, takeover speculation, the Gibb River Review and whether Spurs are genuinely up for sale. We also explore the realities of modern football ownership, why American investors may be the club's most likely future owners and what Spurs fans should make of examples such as them locked down the road, Bournemouth and Chelsea.

0:37It's a fascinating look in my opinion behind the curtain of how football clubs are really run and some really interesting insights into what was happening at the time Daniel Levy was sacked as chairman of Tottenham Hotspur. if you in any way enjoy this episode of the lab and enjoy what the lab has become if you could follow the podcast it'd be greatly greatly appreciated and we ask one other thing if you can share it wherever you frequent on the internet whether it be twitter message boards if you feel like you got something from this podcast you might not have got elsewhere and please consider sharing it with your friends cheers

1:24How are you doing, Matt? I'm all right, how are you? I'm very well, thank you for joining us. You're in World Cup mode, you're heading over to the state shortly? Yeah, I go in about a week's time. Are you spending seven weeks there? No, no, my wife wouldn't. No. No, so I'm doing kind of like a normal World Cup stint of about four weeks, I think, four or five weeks. I'm coming home at the course finals. Okay, fair enough. Yes, so thanks for doing this. I want to talk a bit about what's been happening at Tottenham. We've spoken to other people, someone, a friend of the podcast who works in sort of big business, who's talked about the structure behind the scenes from a business perspective.

2:06I wanted to talk to someone from a sports perspective who understands the inner workings of any football club, not necessarily just Tottenham. When you heard the news back, I think it was in September, when Daniel Levy was pushed out the door, for want of a better expression, how seismic was that, do you think, for the club? And was you surprised when you heard the news? It was very seismic. And yes, we were all surprised. so Daniel Levy was slightly unusual in that he was an utterly dominant executive chair you know he had one he'd been there's been a lot of churn in the Premier League over the years so one he'd been there a long time so there was that But for a big club,

3:10the power at Spurs was incredibly centralised. I mean, some of that was to do with him being there a long time. But I think more was just how Spurs' ownership structure, which is sort of – I think the numbers have changed slightly recently. But just for argument's sake, about 85 % owned by a company called Enik. Levy owns just under a third of Enik. But really, Enik is a slightly unusual company. It's an investment firm run by a guy called Joe Lewis, who's been around for a very long time. Really interesting character in his own rights. Maybe we'll talk a little bit more about him in a moment.

3:55but but Levy and Lewis have Lewis is uh is in some ways Levy's mentor but Lewis has entrusted has given Levy an enormous amount of trust particularly at Tottenham he's effectively let Levy run Tottenham like like the most sort of trusted lieutenant you could imagine um you know and and and it's been a for a very long time it was sort of a mutually beneficial arrangement um and levy did things like absolutely drive at times project manage the stadium build um the training ground um you know he kind of was across every hiring and firing almost every kind of budget decision. You know, he had remarkable power at Tottenham and almost everybody at Tottenham by the time he went had almost been hired by him and they were in his image.

5:02I mean, I genuinely cannot think of another club in the Premier League almost down into the championship that was so in kind of one person's image, You know, that someone had sort of shaped a club as closely as Levy had shaped Spurs. So I think that's the first thing to say. And then, of course, when that all ends, and it ends so abruptly and so out of the blue, yes, it's an enormous surprise. And, you know, you were quite circumspect in your question. He was booted out. he was sacked do you know why does any it was as a during your investigation of that story if if you did one you know do you know was there any rumors as to what what what happened why hundreds of rumors what can you substantiate um yeah put it this way uh it's a disputed story and you've got one side, if you like, the Lewis family side, not wanting to get into detail, and the other side not wanting to get into detail either.

6:25But whenever rumours are put to them for comment, both sides tend to just deny and clam up.

6:38so the official line i guess if you can sort of piece together the denials is a colossal and very abrupt and quick but total falling out over club strategy really between the Lewis children. So Joe, one, is old. I don't have the number on my fingertips, but I think he's deep into his 80s. Yes, definitely. And two, has had quite an eventful couple of years himself and very much had to step away from his involvement, his kind of direct personal involvement with Tottenham a couple of years ago when he had to plead guilty to insider trading in the US. He's basically based in Bahamas. And in a very embarrassing episode for him, he had been giving share advice to drivers, pilots, girlfriend.

7:48And the US authorities got wind of it. and he eventually pleaded guilty and paid a huge fine and that kept him out of prison, as did his age, I think. So that was a big problem for him and the owners and directors test at Sotnam. So the moment that happened, he stepped away. His shares were placed into a kind of complicated trust and in some ways that left Levy in even more power. but that kind of weird period only lasted about a year because what was clear is you know there's always succession planning i'm not being morbid here you know as we've mentioned the guy's pretty old you know what next and i think that succession plan was well let's have a look at trying to sell this this is between you know the two old friends the mentor and the you know the protege and for a a good period of time, Daniel Levy's job was to go out and have a look, see what people would offer Tottenham.

8:56Now, Tottenham's been in this situation for a long time. Joe Lewis is a trader by nature. He's been quite a passive owner over the sort of decades. Again, leaving the day-to-day to Levy. But being a bit of an absent landlord, I don't think there's any real evidence that he absolutely loves it. I think he's denied that over the years, but I don't see the evidence of someone who absolutely loves it, lives and breathes it, and desperately wants to win, for example. But anyway, Tottenham, I think, have been one of those softly for sale clubs for a long, long time. You know, not actively for sale. So they would always deny it.

9:36There's always plausible deniability. But you speak to, you know, one of the main things I do at The Athletic is I do a lot of our club takeover stuff. So I talk to people in that world pretty much every other day. And Tottenham have been one of those clubs that are kind of perceived to be available. It's not a distressed asset. Well, it wasn't a distressed asset. And there wasn't a for sale sign outside the window. It wasn't being advertised. Well, I'll get to that. but it was loosely for sale make me an offer now the minute the Joe Lewis situation changed I think Tottenham became a bit more for sale so I think your listeners will remember various stories over the last few years interest from Qatar interest from a wealthy guy from Singapore and then we get to a year or so ago where there was a story around this this guy called Brooklyn Eric someone else called Wing Fi these are this is all true you know I'm you know these are all conversations that and there are there are others as well that haven't reached the public domain conversations were had with Levy.

11:01And at this point, Tottenham were trying a bit harder to be sold in that they'd appointed a bank to help them, Rothschild, who do a lot of the M &A activity in football. So Tottenham were, I would say, more actively for sale. Now, I believe, and neither party has plausibly and strongly denied this, that a lot of the dispute is around what Levy was saying to people about the sale, how hard he was trying to sell the club, and most importantly, about what role he would have going forward. Now, there is a view that the Lewis family felt disappointed by stories rumours that they were hearing back that Levy intended to stay on in a kind of consultancy role for a period of time.

12:08That's quite common. You know, when you buy a business, any business, certain key individuals will often stay on for a bit, you know, kind of a handover, if you like. And that's certainly, I think, what Levy thought he was doing. it does appear that some on the Lewis family thought that was sort of underhand and disloyal and that we bought this together we've run it together we're going to sell it together like I say there's denial there and maybe there's a sort of breakdown in communications maybe who knows okay like i said this is a disputed story there is also another theory that when joe had to step back the children vivian uh and others and and their advisors took a greater interest in what was going on and started to, they actually appointed a firm to have a look, a kind of obscure American firm whose name escapes me now.

13:18I think it was the Gibb River. That's it, that's the one. To do a kind of an appraisal of what's been going on there. And they also insisted that Levy hires a proper chief exec. So that was the explanation of why Vinay Ninkiteshwaram arrived. So it looked like more oversight, more scrutiny for Levy. Now, there's a theory that things came up in that review that led to some issues. Like I said, this is a disputed story. um i think those are the two main theories there are a couple of others that kind of flow from them but the two that make the most sense in that there was a kind of disagreement or a misalignment over kind of how we sell this thing how we exit this investment this very long investment and or a disagreement over some of the decision making that have been going on now I suppose I should probably just add that the sort of most public explanation was that the Lewis children just didn't think Spurs was winning enough.

14:43And we're going to take over. Thank you, Daniel, for your time. We are now going to run this club, and we're going to be utterly committed on winning, with the implication being that Levy wasn't. i mean that's the messaging that's coming out in the last couple of weeks for sure i think it's really trying to in a kind of measured way throw levy under the bus not very measured is it i mean it's it's yeah well they didn't mention his name i guess uh but yeah they said that you know we didn't realize the depth of the problems before we got here which is alarming really because as owners of significant share they should they should know And maybe that leans into what you said about Daniel Levy really just being given the reins.

15:27Joe Lewis was happy for him. And why wouldn't they be? Because they've gone from£50 million to a multi-billion pound company, Tottenham Hotspur. So he's done a really good job for Tavistock. Interestingly, a couple of people I've spoke to through this podcast that mentioned have claimed to have known or been a part of potential takeover bids of Spurs. and they all said that the main problem with the take-over was Daniel Levy getting in the way, either wanting to remain and or move the goalpost to make the deal very difficult. And this is lots of money for him. You're talking about a billion pounds for him as well, potentially, or his family.

16:06Why do they keep saying, do you think, Matt, that we are categorically not for sale when most people seem to think they are a little bit for sale? Well, I think this fascinates me. So I agree with everything you said in your question, by the way.

16:25So I think something quite interesting is going on. When this all happened and they put out their statements and they very aggressively shot down, if you remember, a couple of early slight speculative attempts to buy the club. I mentioned Brooklyn Erick, Miranda Stavely, Wing Fine, this character called Roger Kennedy, and they shot them down in quite a sort of regulatory way. You know, Tottenham are very unusual in that they're partially listed, so they do have to follow the takeover panel code. So these people were basically told to put up or shut up, and they didn't, so they had to back off.

17:04And all their public statements via the family, Enoch, you mentioned Tavistock, which is the actual sort of Lewis family company. They appointed someone from Tavistock, a banker called Peter Charrington, to sort of chair the club. And it did very much like, no, no, no, no, no, no. You know, there's a new sheriff here. We're in this for the long haul. So there was that. However, absolutely everybody, and I mean everybody, in the football M &A world, so brokers, agents, lawyers, investors, didn't believe them. Not one word. Not at all. And I've said this, don't worry. I have spoken to servers about this.

18:01I've spoken to their advisors about this, their PR firm about this. and there's basically been a kind of shrugging. Well, what can we tell you, right? This is the line. And if people aren't believing us, they're just going to have to watch, okay? Let's have this conversation in six months and we'll see who's right. And they have been right. So everybody was wrong that this was, of course they're saying that. Yeah, of course they are. Yeah, I mean, what do you expect? But they're obviously for sale. They were obviously for sale a month ago. They were obviously sale a year ago. And they're even more for sale now.

18:37These people don't want to own this club. They want to sell it. Of course they do. The kids don't care that much. How often have they been to Spurs? These are the things they used to hear all the time. They're going to have a quick, you know, look round. They're going to work out because, you know, Daniel presumably kept a lot of stuff, didn't pass it on. Or, you know, they're going to get a sense of how much this thing's worth. And they're going to sell it. Of course they are. But a few things happened. One, we got that very public, we're not for sale. Two, we got those kind of quite legalistic regulatory measures to back up that message, we're not for sale, i.e.

19:12telling Stavely and so-and-so to get lost. They dropped Rothschild. At the moment, they have a relationship with a law firm that doesn't really do football M &A. If they're for sale, they're doing it in the most unusual, strange, passive-aggressive way. and and what we you know a year has passed and they're still not sold and we're no further along it's the same people floating around the edges unable to you know cobble together the money required unable to sort of sit down face to face with the people that matter at enik and And nothing's really changed. Inic have put a bit more money into the club.

20:01I suspect they've diluted Levy's stake down. Although, again, that's not something they really want to publicly talk about because I think their arrangement must be incredibly complicated and fraught and probably a matter of legal argument at the moment. So there's an awful lot of uncertainty. And then, of course, we've also had Spurs form on the pitch, which has had a huge impact or would have had a huge impact on the potential value of the club. So there's just been so much uncertainty around this thing. Nothing's really changed. I would say the sort of mood out there has gone from being, oh, yeah, they're clearly for sale and this is all just for show.

20:45and trust me, you know, that thing will be sold to, I don't know, maybe they mean it. That's a bit weird, isn't it? Well, it is weird and it's hard for us as fans who don't really know about football governance and what goes in the workings of a football club to figure out, which is trying to piece it all together, which is part of why we're having this conversation. I had it from two separate people that were in a room with, Amanda Stavely that she was announcing very publicly that they've raised enough money to buy Tottenham, 3.5 billion to the tune of that. So if those people were telling the truth, which I believe they were, and that happened, and that means that there was a concrete offer for the club for a really, I mean, 3.5 billion is good value for Tottenham, given the fact that Chelsea were bought for two and a half.

21:41So it must mean if the concrete offers there from the Middle East that they want to stay and if they want to stay it must mean that they think they can increase the value of the club that's the only thing or they just they love Spurs they don't know what one's true well I mean okay all of those things are possible and and credible explanations I have I have issues with with all of them because I just I find I find Enick Tavistock the Lewis family incredibly hard to work out what they're playing at I also just would without wanting to start a big route or get into trouble I don't doubt that those those two people heard Amanda Savely say that yeah what I doubt is whether Anna Savey really did have it seemed odd that she would announce it so publicly what was her motive to do that I mean yeah and did I miss this public announcement No, it wasn't a public announcement.

22:45It was a private event. Oh, well, there you go. So that is more typical of Waramander's approach to these things. So all I'll point out there is that Stavely has an interesting track record. Before she successfully brokered that Newcastle deal, which surprised many in the industry, that she got something over the line because she had previously failed on a couple of occasions before, most notably with Liverpool, where she made very similar noises and promises and failed to deliver the money and the bid. And ever since she's left Newcastle, she's been trying to do the same with Tottenham and a couple of other clubs she's looked at too.

23:40So I would just sound a note of caution around a Stavely-led takeover. So it may be that Spurs haven't received concrete, we want to buy this offer. I mean, no, they haven't. And this is not to maybe pick on Stavely here. Stavely's almost in permanent fundraising mode. Right. Okay. And as are others, some of the others I've already mentioned, and a lot of what goes on here is as they're brokers, they're almost playing both sides a little bit. They're sort of telling the buyer, I have a bid, I have investors. They're hoping that that gains some traction in the media. That will then attract more investors and will firm up any conversations they've had with maybe investors.

24:46Okay, so then the idea is there's sort of momentum growing from both sides. You know, the buyer starts to really believe you. you start to frighten off any other potential bidders because you sort of think all right what's the point stavely's well that bid has got the in we'll back off they're so far down the track we'll just have to let them let that one play out and people people join the party right people people people the idea is that you are sort of in fundraising mode that that's very much stavely's approach i don't mean to pick on her that's no quite common in football um My problem is it's a very well-thumbed manual, and Stavely's been doing it for quite a long time.

25:33And I also don't think she's viewed as favourably, I'm afraid, in the industry as she thinks she is. Her success has been around getting golf backers I don't think American backers are

26:01are are as in are as I don't know want to sort of team up with her she has been trying and the problem about the Gulf is there are only so many Gulf states so she's had a few other scrapes in business involving other Gulf states she's had a few legal setbacks in recent years as well and I am told by multiple sources that she's finding it harder than she suggests to find to find the money required to buy a club of Tottenham size yeah 300 million for Newcastle is very different to 3.5 billion or 3 billion um it's interesting that that you've said that because um that that private event was with lots of people that work in the media who would probably they haven't done but might have been able to act as a megaphone for her messaging so perhaps that was what was happening i believed it i thought brilliant we're being sold um and then it wasn't necessarily happy with being sold by uh to a um a gulf states i think there's major you know issues around that and ethical issues that we won't get into now.

27:15But also just on that, I think people can sort of, you know, do their own research to sort of put it that way. Which golf state? People have to think about it. So Qatar? Yeah, I mean... Well, Qatar own PSG. So there's a massive issue there. You know, anyone that owns Tottenham would be thinking, well, we're doing this because I want to be in the Champions League. I want to win things. Yeah. You know, I'd have the best stadium in Europe. So, So that would, what, someone from Qatar is going to, what, exit PSG now? Or are we going to genuinely pretend there's someone in Qatar that isn't closely associated to the Qatari state?

27:55Good luck. We've been waiting for that one for sort of 10, 15 years. Saudi, so we think someone's going to take on PIF, which is run by the crown prince. Okay, that's interesting. And would be a tough regulatory hurdle to clear. um uae okay well there's there's quite a well-known club already owned by a very powerful figure within the uae so that one cross that one out and i'd also hasten to add that stavely herself has already fallen out with the uae in qatar and didn't and the situation newcastle she was effectively let go by Saudi. So, you know, draw your own conclusions there. So what are we on to there?

28:44Are we on to Bahrain, Kuwait? Well, people have been talking about those countries buying football teams for as long as I've been doing this job. They've never bought a really big one yet. I'm struggling to see which golf state it would be at the moment. I mean, hopefully none of them. And there's the other one. What's the other thing? What's Tottenham famous for? Yeah, we have a strong Jewish fan base. There you go. There's a massive issue there. And even people that aren't Jewish can have ethical issues with being taken over. And generally, if you love the sport of football, you don't want people that are politically motivated to own lots and lots of clubs in the Premier League because Premier League clubs have voting rights and they can change the landscape of the game.

29:43So we've got to guard against that. So who is or what nationality do we think, the two of us, I think we're on the same page here, is the most likely buyer of Tottenham, a very famous club in London with a massive, very, very cool stadium that just so happens to host NFL games? What nation do you think is most likely to buy? The US. Well, of course it is. They're the biggest, most active buyers in European football for the last five, ten years. it's so patently obvious to me that if someone buys Tottenham and also where are the Lewis family based they're effectively based in Florida Bahamas they're nearly all their you know their sort of business circles at the moment would be American business they're very much sort of plugged into that world if Tottenham get bought in the next certainly in the foreseeable future it's going to be a an American sports entrepreneur stroke entrepreneurial family and or an American big fund but before before we round up and this has been fascinating Matt it's been really really interesting listening to you speak about this um I think a fear might come from some Spurs fans because basically they look at the Middle East they look at Man City and they think we want that right but football's changed that's not going to happen and for many reasons that's not going to happen right which is which is a good thing but they might look at Chelsea as an example of what American owners might look like can you quickly explain Boli's position and Nagbali's position because one it seems to be like a kind of in and out type of owner in Nagbali and Boli seems because of what he did with the Dodgers it was the Dodgers right where they've been in there for the long haul and have taken a kind of really failing sort of outfit to becoming super successful, free World Series in five years, something like that.

31:45Should Spurs fans be scared of what perhaps they've seen at Chelsea, if it is an American owners, or is it specific to them too? Yeah, I mean, like, the whole Chelsea situation is a different podcast. Yeah, just in a nutshell, if you can. Well, yeah, so, look, there's no such thing as a perfect owner. Right. And there are plenty of duff owners from the UK as well. I mean, I literally wouldn't have a job if that wasn't the case, right? It's sort of my bread and butter. So there's that. In terms of the Chelsea situation, it's not just the nationality that's the issue there. What's quite unusual, not always so unique, but I guess it's unique in the way it's sort of a very aggressive, extreme example of this type of ownership model, and it's a big club, and it's right in front of our faces, is that this is a very private equity-led play, right?

32:40Igbali's the key person there. So I know everyone's sort of focused on Boley because he was the first name we were introduced to and he was sort of front of house. He's the one that steps away, to be honest. Igbali's the guy that kind of runs it. And that's because he and a guy called Jose Frisiano from this private equity firm called Clear Lake. They own, I think, 60 % of the club. and they are playing with other people's money. Okay. That's meant to be a classic sort of private equity, seven to 10 year investment. We'll buy this thing at two and a half. We'll sell it at 10, right? And we're going to sell it at 10 because we're going to build a new stadium because TV rights are going to go up.

33:23We're going to, you know, the whole Premier League, the whole sort of the way we consume sport is going to go to streaming, which is already happening. We're going to go direct to consumer at some point, you know, blah, blah, blah, this whole Premflix idea. We're going to do all these sort of cool things, gambling, blah, blah, blah, blah. We're going to sell more and more of our own rights. The women's team is going to rise. We're going to do some clever stuff. This is classic private equity stuff. I go to sports conferences and I've been hearing this sort of rammed down my throats for five, ten years.

33:49What we're seeing at Chelsea is, oh, right, it's a bit harder than you thought. Yeah. And how's that investment looking now? You pay two and a half million, two billion for it now. You've burned through the 1.75 that you said you were going to invest in the club as well, that you committed to invest in the club and the well, that was meant to be on things like the stadium. What's happening there? Have I missed that story? Yeah. You appear to have sold things to yourselves to meet Premier League and UEFA spending rules, and we're no further along at all. You've stockpiled a lot of talent. Good luck.

34:25Well done. We're halfway through your kind of normal investment cycle. So, yeah, complete crash. I think a classic case, I think I mentioned this phrase before, but it's one that's quite common in business, a misalignment. You know, Boley and Egg Barley have very, very quickly fallen out, and there's always no cooperation and communication between the two. So, you know, and that's a mess. It may well work it out, right? They may well have chanced upon a good manager. They did win the Club World Cup along the way. Yes, it was bad this year. Let's see how this goes. But in terms of their investment, in terms of the way they've run that club, it's been a shambles, utter shambles.