THE LAB | Richarlison Exit, Mudryk Gamble & Spurs’ Injury Reset

0:00Before the season even kicks off, soccer fans are already making predictions. Who wins the league? Who qualifies for Europe? And who's lifting the trophy at season's end? On Calci, America's number one prediction market platform, you're trading against peers in a live market, meaning there's no house. And as the probability changes, you can buy in and out of your position. For a limited time, download the Calci app and use code CUP26 to get$10 when you trade 10. K-A-L-S-H-I, Calci. Trade the beautiful game. 18 plus only restrictions and eligibility requirements apply. Event contract trading involves risk and may not be suitable for all investors.

0:32Prices, values and available markets may differ from those mentioned. For more information, see calsheet.com slash regulatory. Today we're joined by the Athletics' Dan Kilpatrick for a wide-ranging Tottenham Hotspur discussion. We assess Richarlison's uncertain future and whether Spurs have handled his potential exit well before looking at the club's major change in approach to injuries and player fitness under Roberto Dezerbi. We also discussed whether Tottenham's£400m rebuild has genuinely lifted expectations, the logic behind the Mikhail Mudrik move, why the squad feels uncertain in key areas, and the midfield selection debate between Benton Kort, Tonali, Fernandes and Gallagher.

1:12If you enjoy listening to The Lab, please consider giving us five stars on Spotify. It really, really helps if you can. Enjoy the show.

1:29Hello Dan, welcome back to the lab. Hello Flav, thank you. How are you doing? You've had a busy day at Legoland. I've been at Legoland, yeah. I enjoyed it, I really enjoyed it. It wasn't, I went to Legoland years ago when I was a kid and it wasn't as I remembered. In my head I was going to a sort of theme park where it's just a huge miniature, where everything's built of Lego. and that is like the start you get there and you sort of walk down the hill and they've got the Lego London and the Lego New York and the Lego Space Shuttle and I thought the whole of Legoland was more or less like that with a couple of rides but it's not, it's like a theme park for kids with loads of rides but in your mind as a child that's what it was like?

2:15In my mind it was that which is fine, I enjoyed it but I explained it to my daughter that that's what it was going to be like I was like, yeah, it's just a whole world built of Lego. And I almost detected a bit of disappointment. It wasn't that. Dad, you said this would be, you know. Yeah, I mean, so you've had a good day, but you have, in a way, let your daughter down as well. Yeah, well, yeah. I mean, it's an amazing thing to take your kids to Legoland. Everyone should do it. But we do have some sort of relatively important things, not in comparison to that, but stuff in our world that we might want to talk about.

2:50And I think we're going to go across many subjects in the next 45 minutes or so. So it's sort of like a sweeping podcast rather than specifically focusing on anything. So I want to start with Richarlison because this is a weird situation, right? As we understand it, the Saudi window is open until the 12th of October. although there's this different different there's differing um information about whether it's close to a certain level of player but as as reported in the athletics it's the 12th of october yeah i mean i should say that we just had a quick look and a quick chat about this before we started recording and i was convinced well i thought it was a 12th of october because we'd reported that on The Athletic and I've read that previously but I did just do a Google and there were some tweets from sort of unverified accounts saying, oh the Saudi transfer window has officially closed on September 6th so I'm not sure clearly there is a deadline on the 12th of October because that's been widely reported, I don't know whether that is a deadline that only applies to specific players and for other players it was a 6th, I don't know but I think I think Richarlison could still go to Saudi for another month.

4:08And there is, so yeah, 12th of October. And then there's the Brazilian window that appears to be open as well. And there's been interest from Vasco and Flamengo, which all of that is fine. And there's questions about whether or not there needs to be like a unilateral approach between all FAs and all countries about when the window should shut. But getting everybody to agree to that will be impossible. So it is just the way it is. But moreover, how do you feel like we've played this with Charles' situation? Because originally I thought there's no point including him in the squad if he doesn't want to be here and he wants to move away in the Premier League squad.

4:50If he doesn't get his move, we've just got a player on what would be considered decent wages who can't play in the Premier League until January of which he'll probably try for a move in January um I don't know how do you feel about him not being included at all yeah I mean I think I mean the first thing I want to say in Richarlison really is that I'm aware that there has been in some quarters like a bit of a backlash against him and a sort of narrative that he turned down Everton because he was demanding loads of money, which may or may not be true. I don't know the reality of those negotiations and only a few people really do.

5:33And there have been, you know, a lot of negative comments, I think, from Spurs fans about him. And it kind of makes me sad because Richarlison, A, played a pretty significant part, I think, in saving us from relegation last season. If you take away his goals, we would have gone down. Simple as that. And also, I think Richarlison's a good bloke. And I think he's sort of palpably a better person than many footballers and indeed many other footballers in the Tottenham squad. And I really like his personality. I personally kind of like his politics. I like his vibe. I like what he stands for. I think he is a kind of more of a force for good in the world than many with his profile.

6:23So I like him. That doesn't mean I want to keep seeing him come on for Spurs and sort of miskick the ball from eight yards out, which was getting really frustrating. And I do think, and I've said this on this pod, I think probably in other pods, that his time at Spurs I think has run its course. And I think we need to upgrade on him. and that's been clear for a while. But, you know, I don't like this kind of backlash. And I know there'll always be, you know, there were people when we had Kane saying, you shit, we should sell him. There'll always be people angry about something and against someone.

7:00So I get that. But, you know, I do think Spurs fans should remember what Richarlison has done for Spurs and also just remember like who he is. and partly like brings me to your question like I'm a bit dismayed at the way the club's handled it I think Deserby saying he wanted to leave was a misstep likewise with Danso and Berreval as well probably yeah but Berreval and Tarr these things arguably should just be kept private and it should be worked out between the club and the players and their representatives and the teams who might want to buy them. So I think the club's mismanaged it. They've obviously now kind of been briefing kind of against Richarlison, saying that they told him he wasn't going to be part of the plans before the window, which obviously is as if to say he should have gone to Everton or he knew the reality of the situation.

8:01It's his fault he's in this situation. And again, I don't really like that. so I think it's pretty clear the club is kind of trying to force him out or wants to get rid of him and I should also say that's kind of fair enough as well that's the reality of this business and modern football that sometimes players want to move on from clubs and don't show them a lot of loyalty and it works the other way as well so the whole thing I think is kind of coming to a bit of an unhappy conclusion, isn't it, really? And I think Richarlison's been a bit of a disastrous signing in terms of value for money. Yeah.

8:45But, again, just because of who he is, and I think actually what he's done as well and how he's presented himself, I think he kind of deserved a better send-off and it would have been nice if, you know, he had got an offer earlier in the window that he had really liked and Spurs had kind of waved him off into sunset and he could have been a kind of bit more of a celebrated figure than one he's kind of leaving, clearly not on his terms. Well, we don't know, but potentially not leaving on his terms and kind of under a bit of a cloud. What he said about that, he mentioned that I would never let anybody make a decision about my career again.

9:24He also said that he would never accept a deal that didn't benefit the club as well and that if he was to remain at Spurs, he would continue to play in the way that he has previously. And I've been a proponent, I've been a massive critic of his. I thought that he wasn't good enough the minute he first kicked a ball at Spurs. And I don't take any joy in being correct, but I just think he was never good enough. And it became clear that that was going to be the case. And I think, though, that the reaction to him leaving and the people atting him on Twitter and messaging him on social media because they're disappointed because they wanted to enjoy, just for me, just unnecessary.

10:14It's unnecessary. He's a human being. He can do what he wants. He doesn't have to kind of placate a fan base. I did find it odd, though, that he didn't just willingly move to Everton because that seemed on. They need a striker. They've got one in Barry. And so that just seemed like a perfect situation for him. for Everton for Tottenham it all just made sense and he refused to go which is where the frustration comes from but just quickly because I couldn't get to the bottom of whether or not Richarlison and then Jai were were a part of the same deal that one moving the other way but it was important to say this yeah well yeah it's just the club kind of dug their own hole didn't they because the briefing was all insisting oh these are complete separate deals and then as soon as Richarlison doesn't happen oh and Jai can't happen either even though oh they're totally separate deals so I don't know I don't want to say that anyone's misleading us but Just lots of weird information coming out Yeah I think you can draw your own conclusions there that the deals were clearly if not one deal then they were quite obviously linked quite closely because as soon as Richarlison didn't want to move to Everton as you said the Njai deal couldn't happen I think Njai has also kind of come out and said since that he couldn't turn down a club like City and he wanted to go there and he's mentioned Spurs directly so there was always a possibility that even if Richarlison had agreed to go to Everton that end of the deal would have fallen through and City would have come in.

11:51So again, we just can't blame Mitch Allison. But I also think, you know, that as others have said, Spurs are now kind of one Solanke injury and Solanke's had a lot of injuries in the last two years. One Solanke injury away from having just Marmouche as a kind of target man for the first half of the season. And I think he's looked really sharp in the first couple of games, Marmouche, but he's not the kind of guy who I think is going to be able to play as a traditional centre forward who you could kind of chuck on when you need a goal late in the game. And while I appreciate that, you know, people are kind of, know what they're going to get from Michalos now and are probably fed up of seeing Spurs do that, it's still better to have that plan B than kind of no plan B, I guess.

12:46Yeah. yeah it is just on that sort of the injury stuff because it's clear that there's been a shift in the way we're managing our players I think for example against Forest Doggy and Savio were withdrawn on the hour and apparently that was planned with the medical team that there was there's this kind of injury management team that is deciding whether or not players should be able to play a full 90 minutes and and this is obviously a direct reaction to the last three years which has been an absolute disaster for Tottenham in terms of how many injuries we've racked up and it had to change and what exactly has changed in how Tottenham managed players fitness do you think like it feels like the collaborative efforts or decision making between Deserby and the medical team and and everyone else that's going on that has a role in in how many players are able what players are available for what minutes but what do you think it's deliberate what's happening it feels and are you comfortable with it yeah i mean it's it's not my job to speak to people and try and find out what's going on behind the scenes anymore but from from what i've read and um i'm sure this is right because ali gold and and um my colleagues at the eclectic have written similar things is that Dan Lewand and the performance director has come in and done a big overview of how the club's been run from top to bottom really and and one of the areas he's looked at is how the club manages the first team squad in terms of fitness and selection and and has recommended a kind of more cautious approach and Spurs now feel they have a deeper squad and they're going to listen to that advice and be a lot more cautious.

14:42And I think we saw that, as you said, with the substitutions against Forrest, but also Savio not playing against Newcastle after the Charlton game when he'd only played, what, 30-odd minutes, if that. And there was a huge buzz about him. And I think maybe in previous seasons or with a less cautious approach, there would have been a real temptation just to put him in against Newcastle because there was that buzz. I was desperate to see him. Yeah, everyone was desperate to see him. But he was out of the squad completely. And I think Dezebi said he had muscle fatigue. So it wasn't an injury. It was just he was in the red zone.

15:20And the club made a cautious call. And I think we're going to see a lot more of that going forward. I'm fine with that. Yeah, I can't criticise it because of what's happened in the last two years. It's been hell. It's been awful. and I do I feel like it does feel like the whole club and for totally understandable reasons is kind of neurotic about injuries and has been kind of emotionally scarred by the last two seasons like it feels like there's a collective trauma at Tottenham about particularly particularly Ang's final season the year before last when there was just that relentless the schedule was relentless wasn't it was every three days he was having to put out a team and and every week you could or every game you could predict exactly he was going to play because there were only about 10 or 11 fit players and they just kept having to go again and it just felt like a snowball you know the more you played the more injuries you were getting and um in the same position there'd be someone sitting on the ground no contact injury another muscle gone but um do Do you remember back at the Chelsea game where suddenly Romero and Van Lovend were starting and it seemed like they were nowhere near?

16:40Yeah. They both got cropped in the same game. Yeah, it was unbelievable. The cinch of making was awful back then. Yeah, I mean, yeah, I think the thing you can really hammer the club over is not the injuries. It was the setbacks. It was the re-injuries. it was the number of players and there were so many that it's actually kind of incredible looking back it was the number of players that came back into the team and then immediately got injured again or soon after got another injury it happened so many times Stan sorry to cut you do you remember Van de Ven coming back in the Europa League game against Freiburg or someone like that he played one and then he was out of the team again for a month or so yeah but when you're watching him play it's like it's clearly that he's not fit like he's not even the way he was playing the ball it was sort of gingerly sort of cautious about doing his much he wasn't ready and yet he was playing I don't know I've never known a European competition to be used as a part of a rehabilitation process it was just mental what was going on Yeah I mean it did look pretty negligible when you look back now and I think the the van der van Romero against Chelsea example you cited is the best one but there were lots of players.

18:04Odder Bear springs to mind, came back from a big injury, got injured again almost instantly. Madison, I think, had a knee problem before, the big knee problem before the ACL. And it was mainly Matty Cash, but yeah, he was out there probably too early. There were so many and I think that every club gets injuries, it's going to happen, it's unavoidable. But not every club brings players back into the team only to see them break down at the rate it happened to Tottenham. I mean, you could argue that once is unlucky, but we were talking multiple, multiple times. So I think that was the thing that Spurs really had to address.

18:47A doggy, you know, he seemed to be able to play six games and then get a hamstring injury or a minor twinge that would keep him out for another few games. He just wasn't able to stay fit. and so when you hear De Zerbi saying that this was a pre-planned thing for the doggy that on 60 minutes he was going to come off, don't risk it, don't overexert his muscles which has clearly been an issue in his career while he's at Spurs and the fact that you've got Andy Robinson on the bench that can come in, it's not a problem, is it, to switch them out? And I think the recruitment has had the injury record at the forefront of the mind because we've had so many injuries and with so many games to play previously.

19:37And in this season, you've got potentially 50 games in a season and our squad feels as stacked as it's been for a while. But I think it could be that it's a deliberate act to get as many players, first team ready players in that squad as possible so that we can manage their minutes, which is weird because we're three games in and managing minutes doesn't make much sense. But given what's happened previously, do you feel like the squad is stacked or do you feel like we're lacking in certain areas? I know you mentioned the number nine. Before the season even kicks off, soccer fans are already making predictions.

20:12Who wins the league? Who qualifies for Europe? And who's lifting the trophy at season's end? On Calci, America's number one prediction market platform, you're trading against peers in a live market, meaning there's no house. And as the probability changes, you can buy in and out of your position. For a limited time, download the Calci app and use code CUP26 to get$10 when you trade 10. K-A-L-S-H-I, Calci. Trade the beautiful game. 18 plus only restrictions and eligibility requirements apply. Event contract trading involves risk and may not be suitable for all investors. Prices, values, and available markets may differ from those mentioned.

20:44For more information, see calci.com slash regulatory. Yeah, no, I think to your point, firstly, I think that's right. And a dog is a perfect example because I think part of the reason he was getting so many muscle injuries was probably because of the lack of competition there and he just had to come back in the team when he was fully training again. Obviously, Spence alleviated that a bit. But now, as you say, I suppose don't have to risk him if they are at all concerned. They can play Robertson and they can even play Ben Davis if needed. So I think the squad depth is going to enable the club to take that approach, whereas previously, you know, Ange might have wanted to, for example, be more cautious at times, but there weren't really the numbers available, there weren't really the senior players available.

21:38So yeah, I think the squad building has really been geared toward having two quality players in each position, which is what every club wants. I think in terms of where the squad is, it's kind of difficult to know. Like there are so many players in the front line at the moment and I'm still a little bit unclear about like where everyone's going to fit in. I mean, obviously Kudis is back now. Kudishevsky's back in training. Madison has sort of come back, but it doesn't really feel like he's sort of back back yet because it's been stop-start. And then there's still Odderbeer, Savvy-Simmons and am I forgetting someone?

22:20No, no, it was only like major injuries. And yeah, there's still those two to come back as well, I think we think in the new year. So it does feel like there's a lot of competition for places, but I think I'm least clear about the forward area. I'm least clear about, let's say right now, if everyone's fit and up to speed, I couldn't tell you he's going to play where. I suspect it would be Marmouche, Savio and Koudis but yeah I think it's up for grabs and I think that can only be a good thing really you want competition for places and you want players you can play in multiple positions so I think Spurs have that Yeah for sure what did you make of the Forest performance where are you at with the sort of how we've started the season and the things that we're trying to do and what Deserve is trying to implement.

23:18Obviously, the Brentford game was an utter disaster. Newcastle showed signs of promise and I thought we were better against Forest than we have been previously. Are you of my conviction that things are slowly improving and it will come good? I don't know what come good means in terms of where we finish in the league, but feeling like it's a cohesive unit and eventually it will click. are you confident in that? I think what the first three games have kind of told me and I was one of the people who before the start of the season was saying on View from the Lane, the Athletic Spurs podcast and probably elsewhere that Spurs have spent so much money they've added so many players to the squad that they should be looking at fourth, fifth, sixth a push for the lower Champions League places.

24:15And I think what the first three games have illustrated is that really we've kind of spent£400 million just to have a competitive Premier League squad, not to have a really competitive special squad. And I've now kind of, I'm rapidly revising my expectations to, I think closer to mid-table frankly I think my sort of official position is that it's still early days there are a lot of players betting in there are a lot of moving parts there are a lot of players coming back from injury and it should improve and we should kind of be patient

24:57and stick with this team and this manager and kind of wait for it to well yeah sort of see where it goes but I'm definitely a bit worried. For all. Yeah, I don't know if that's just inherent to being a Spurs fan, but there definitely have been some red flags, haven't there? It's just we've gone through too much for not to be affected. You can't approach this philosophically because the evidence has suggested that we absolutely, and I'm not saying this is going to happen, I can say with 100 % faith in my opinion that we won't be involved in a relegation dogfight this season, right? But we've been damaged by it.

25:41And the frustration from Spurs fans generally is warranted. There's been so much... Not only has we been delivered so little on the pitch, but there's been so much upheaval behind the scenes that these things are kind of like ingredients in a recipe for potential disaster. and I think they're doing the right thing by and I've got great faith in what has happened this summer but you can't escape the fact that the squad that the player turnover is going to have a detrimental effect and you only say that after the fact because like you say before the season started I was like yeah fourth fifth I'll take that now I'm like I'll die to say that um Yeah, yeah.

26:27Because you get carried away with it. Take that.

26:34Yeah, I'm kind of not at all sure as well sort of how our recruitment is going to work out. And that's not to say I'm down on it. It's just I think there's... I think the club's strategy was obviously to sort of sign Premier League proven players and reduce the risk. And that's fair enough. you know that's what they wanted to do I think there are pros and cons to that approach but they obviously felt that getting in players who knew the league who wouldn't have a period of adjustment was the way they had to go given what's happened over the last couple of seasons but I think again what the first three games tells us and what we've known all along really is that even when doing that there are kind of no guarantees so I kind of I think with guys like Van Hecker and Sonesi even though they're both internationals for major nations.

27:28There is still a question over them stepping up from a middle-class club to a club like Spurs. I think there's still question marks over Kinski. I think Marmouche and Savio are really bright, but are they going to score enough goals? Are they going to have enough end product is a big question. So there are all these kind of unknowns at the moment. And, you know, the upside is really high. I mean, you know, the ceiling of the squad feels high and the floor has certainly been raised. But I do think, yeah, I do think we're just, we're all kind of slightly stabbing in the dark when it comes to sort of saying, you know, what this team's capable of.

28:13It's interesting you said that we spent£400 million just to be able to compete in the Premier League. A friend of the show, he's been on several times, a guy called Anatole Pang, he has a blog called asymmetricworld.com. And he talks mainly about Spurs. But he did some research in the spending because often when people think about how Tottenham has spent, certainly this summer, they look at net spend. And lesser actually this summer, but more over the last 10 years. Our net spend is comparable to most other clubs in the top six, barring Man City, definitely barring Chelsea. But generally, there's a correlation between what Spurs are doing and what Arsenal are doing and what Liverpool are doing.

29:00But when you look at how we've spent our money compared to these other clubs, the difference is startling. So if you look at generally how much have we spent on players worth£50 million or more in the last 10 years, and Spurs are languishing way behind like we'll happily spend 60 million pound on free players but we won't spend 60 million pound on one player we haven't previously so in the last 10 years we've spent 517 million pounds on players worth 50 million pound or more Arsenal are close to a billion Chelsea Liverpool are close to a billion Man United are at 1.5 billion City and Chelsea are at 1.6 billion.

29:45So we were a billion pounds in terms of buying quality players coming in of sufficient value in the last 10 years behind Man City and Chelsea. They spent a billion pounds more on what you conceive to be as quality players rather than prospects or youth players that perhaps could, you know, like Archie Gray and Barabal could be included in that. For every Solanke, we bought three kids that weren't up to scratch at that stage. Yeah, I mean, that rings true, doesn't it? That was very much Levy's approach. And I think it was an approach that it became increasingly clear was going to get Spurs relegated sooner rather than later, which is why I think, to their credit, Enoch acted and made the change they did.

30:36I think, obviously, there was a time when you could argue that Levy was kind of canny in the market and ahead of the curve. But I think it got to the point where the Premier League was just such a massive beast where these kind of middle-class clubs like Brighton, Brentford and Bournemouth all had top managers and were all buying top players and all were incredibly clever and canny. You just couldn't keep being so cautious and so kind of sloppy in the market as Spurs were. And so I'm glad that's changed. I can't now moan that that's changed. although I do think I would like Spurs to be cleverer in future.

31:16If we're going to spend big money, I think looking outside the Premier League as well as in it has to be the way to go. You can't just pay premiums for these players. Do you think in the short term it was necessary? I get why they did it because I think, again, this summer feels like it was about getting back on a competitive footing. not necessarily and I think everyone has to kind of accept this now not necessarily immediately challenging but just getting the squad back on a competitive footing because it was ludicrously uncompetitive in the Premier League over the last two years let's face it if it hadn't been for relegated clubs two years ago it would have gone down if it hadn't been for Wolves making such a bad start last season it would have gone down so it had to be about ending that cycle and the quickest way and easiest way to do that was buying players who know the league but I think in future you've got to be a bit cannier and I've said this so many times but like my favourite transfer policy of Spurs was when they were the club that always brought the best player from the championship and developed them and this worked so well over the years for Spurs and you know Bale, Walker Dele I know came from League One Defoe, Carrick Huddleston Paul Robinson I think Hayden Hackney would have been Spence yeah I think Hayden Hackney I know that Eze and Elisse and others Wharton perhaps would have been on the club's radar but Spurs didn't do anything about it Perhaps would have done when Pochettino was there Yeah, although Pochettino famously didn't like that policy and spoke out against it It felt like he was very in sync with that but he actually memorably in a press conference said that Spurs shouldn't do that and you got more misses than hits.

33:09So he wasn't a fan. That was when he was pushing the club to sign him some proven players, understandably, which never happened. Daniel Levy that would have been resistant to that. Not to signing players from the Championship, he would have loved doing that. But resistant to operating in the way that other big six clubs do. Yeah. I mean, to be clear, I don't think that should be Spurs' sole transfer policy now, by the way. But I think a balance of signing the established Premier League stars, as we have done this summer, making the canny signings on freeze, as we have done this summer, looking to Europe, and then looking down the English pyramid.