THE LAB | Spurs’ Lost Season: Leadership, Recruitment and the Road Back

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0:38The ultimate experience for the American sports fan. Learn more at comcastcorporation.com slash sports. Pepsi Prebiotic Cola, an original and cherry vanilla. That Pepsi taste you love with no artificial sweeteners and three grams of prebiotic fiber. Pepsi Prebiotic Cola Unbelievably Pepsi Hello and welcome back to the lab We're joined by Kish from Lily White Lab To dig into what has gone wrong with Tottenham this season And whether De Zerbe can be the man to fix it We discuss the importance of player buy-in Why Thomas Frank's approach never fully convinced the squad And how Spurs' lack of midfield control Became the defining tactical problem of the season There's also a deep dive into the signings of Jao Paulina and Conor Gallagher the imbalance of the squad, the short-lived Igor Tudor experiment, and the wider questions around leadership, recruitment and culture at the club.

1:33We also look at Zerbe's arrival, his reputation for improving players, and why his coaching could be exactly what Tottenham's young squad needs, even if the timing could hardly be more chaotic. Enjoy the podcast.

1:56Hello, welcome back to The Lab, joined once again by Kish. I mean, you seem to be doing lots of things now, Kish. What is it? How do I introduce you? To be fair, just Kish is good now, I reckon. Lily White Lab. Yeah, Lily White Lab is my Spurs stuff when we're speaking Spurs, so that makes sense. I just see your face popping up everywhere. I remember the Kish that wasn't doing all this. Taking food off my plate. Ben Bowman's the worst for taking food off my plate Jesus Christ everywhere that guy is everywhere fair play to him no it's really good to see so today I was trying to think about always trying to think about angles for the lab and other things and one of the things that's kind of skipped skipped us all by to some degree is the kind of the level of responsibility or the level of performance from the players now we know it's been terrible but we're trying to figure out what's gone wrong.

2:55So I've got a series of questions that hopefully we'll get to the bottom of that, Kish. But just as we were recording this morning, last night Chelsea got beat 3-0 by Brighton, handedly. And Leon Rosinio has seemingly lost the players completely. And I just thought like what your thoughts are on that because Enze Marescu, I don't want to talk about what Chelsea are doing. I just want to get your thoughts on how important it is to get buy-in from the players. Because I think Enzo Maresca had it. And I think Liam Rossini never had it. How important is that? Or is it a bit of a myth? Are they just robots and professionals and they play for any manager?

3:37No, it's 100 % important. And I think the difficult thing in terms of as fans looking at that kind of thing is we don't see, all we see as fans is the 90 minutes, right? and then a few training videos per week. It's really hard to gauge what the feeling is amongst the dressing room. And I do think that is why those things kind of go unspoken about a little bit or undervalued because you just can't get a gauge of it. But I think it's massive. You see it on the pitch, it's the only gauge. And it's intangible. You have to kind of guess that that might be the problem. Exactly. And you can't measure it.

4:18you can't um you can't calculate it so I think I think psychological factors in football are so much bigger than probably gets spoken about um yeah I think that the I wouldn't even necessarily say it's a senior problem necessarily I think players probably feel a bit disillusioned disillusioned by the process of constantly shifting managers when they probably feel like they're about to get somewhere and then they shift the manager and um and probably the senior players feeling like you know we need more senior players to to compete and the younger players feeling like oh you're just going to go buy another younger player i think all those things definitely definitely have a factor commodity aren't they the young players yeah and and the only reason i start with that is because it's obvious there are problems at that club that club not just with the playing staff but also with the manager but also with the structure that what they put in place like if a player feels like a commodity or he feels like a a piece of meat that will be marked that will be bargained for then it's not necessarily going to instill a culture in the dressing room that you can rely on when times go go when times are bad so I was sort of thinking about that and I was thinking about well what's what's happened with Spurs this season because we've got a similar sort of issue right there was problems with Frank there were problems with Tudor for different reasons and god willing De Zerbi will be able to fix this in the short term but the very least in the long term so let's start with let's start with generally across the season the players what's your sort of one sentence one sentence tactical diagnosis of Spurs this season how would you describe it lack of midfield i'd say yeah so it's uh so i think that's that's personnel wise and that is also tactically wise under frank i think those things went hand in hand in terms of our midfield profiles were not at the level but i also think frank's tactics didn't didn't elevate us to a point where that we could maybe cope with that what so i remember you talking in you were a bit dismayed with the appointment of paulina i remember you saying that uh in fact every time paulina has a bad game i think of you and i think the last time we spoke was in november last year after paulina had a bit of a horror show i saw our text message yesterday when i text you and i can't remember exactly what you said but it wasn't really it wasn't very uh it wasn't the nicest towards paulina but it was a frustrating time but what was the problem with Paulina signing as opposed to what you think we actually needed which as well so I think like again I want to I want to be clear that this is nothing against Paulina it's more against the signing of Paulina and everything it represented right I think we I think when we signed Paulina we basically sacrificed um a midfield that could that could that could control games right so I think when you when you're a team that's supposedly meant to be in the top six you naturally expect to have the ball more than the opposition in 80 % of games maybe more than that and when you're signing a midfielder who thrives solely out of possession I think that is a statement to basically be said we're not we're not too worried about having the ball and I think not being able to control games um is a massive issue when you're when you're trying to get to the top of the table right where we probably before the season started where we wanted to be i think what made it worse is a few things is like we have for example a back four that are very suited to playing front-footed possession-based football but then you don't have the players in front of them to take that uh to do that so you know you sign someone like Pelini who's very good out of possession okay fine let's say you know um we got to a point where we were getting close to relegation okay maybe we can just sit back and hit teams on the break for example but no we didn't we didn't we don't have those players to do that we don't have a back four that are suited to do that we don't even have maybe wide profiles that are suited to playing on the counter-attack so we've built a really imbalanced squad that isn't necessarily all the way around suited to a certain style I feel I think I think you're right and there was an ESPN article that was published recently that sort of said the same stuff I think there was a lot of high that that article was quite easy to write in hindsight to find statistics that are going to suit an argument that the squad is unbalanced when you're 18th you'd find them in any team that are 18 however Yeah, of course.

9:11It did go through some of that stuff. And I wonder if that signing of Paulinho with Heintay sort of summed up where Frank's head was at, in that he wasn't necessarily thinking like a manager who has a squad capable or wants his team to play in a way that he's going to dominate the ball. And as all teams who are trying to achieve Champions League football do, you know, Aston Villa want the ball, Arsenal want the ball. You know, Chelsea, even though they're in a shambles at the moment they want the ball they want to play whereas frank seemed like he didn't and the signing of paulini could have been a an example of that when in an ideal world it would be the signing of someone like who could play would never have got him but adam warren who could play football from a deep line position um and and that was and that sort of played out for the season didn't it was a lack of control always a lack of control um yeah like and and also i i maybe naively thought that when Frank came in that he was going to scale up his style and change his style suited to a team that is more financially capable than Brentford, has more quality than Brentford.

10:23And I think what I've learned from the Frank appointment is that managers are very reluctant to shift their style. I mean, they've got to where they are because of that style. they coach in that way because they've got a staff around them who are used to that style it's not as easy to just think oh now I'm at a bigger club oh let me just start playing possession-based football or whatever it is well do you remember when he was appointed Kish it was like everyone was saying yeah this is good this feels good but he's got to play the football he played with Brentford when he got promoted there was always that caveat this feels good as long as he can play more attractive football and then from when it started it was like oh no and then And even I was looking for bits where I thought that was a bit more positive.

11:03Maybe he's trying to do that. And I think, obviously, so much of his tactic at early doors was, it seemed, and this might be wrong, right, but it was to get it to Porro and try and get it to Kudus and then move up the pitch. When Kudus was injured, it completely, I mean, it didn't work very well anyway. It wasn't very interesting to watch. But when Kudus got injured, it all went the belly up. Yeah, and like, to put that much, that much responsibility on a single pass, kind of it was that wasn't it yeah yeah 100 % and we barely progressed up that left flank even so it wasn't even like even neglect in the middle for me is a problem in general like if you only progress up the flanks I think you're just you're just limiting yourself but the fact we only really progressed up one flank I think part of that was due to Doggy being injured for a lot of that time but Spence wasn't the one who was playing up the left side we would just literally pass it across Sporo play one single pass up the line to Kudas and ask him to do wonders with a probably difficult pass to control.

12:08Yeah, I think that kind of summed up that Frank was very basic in terms of his possession and probably was the same at Brentford. And I think the differences at Brentford is that teams left spaces in behind a lot more. And so when teams leave spaces in behind, you don't need as much structure in possession because the passes are kind of clear you just play into the channels and then you you kind of freestyle it a bit in the final third because there's space there's runners and you just kind of gamble on that and I think when you're a team that's going to play more against teams that that sit in a solid shape you need a bit more instruction you need a bit more structure you need a bit more bit more patterns of play and all those kind of things so um yeah so do you think the biggest failing you know of langer and perhaps for frank not to push for it was that ball play in midfielder no so i think under frank i think this is this is one thing i kind of got to towards the end of frank because i think there was a lot of flack on um pelina and benton core right i remember going to games um towards the end and and being so like frustrated with the midfield and I was just watching Benton call every time he received the ball and I noticed that he was looking, like he was seeing passes that were forward, like there was clear passes through a gap that he could have played and he was choosing not to and then it got to that point where I was like this must be instructional this must be an instruction to not take risks in the centre of the park and so I think you know, 100 % we needed that midfielder we still need that midfielder i think it got mac the issue got maximized by the fact that i don't think frank wanted us to play through the middle regardless and i think that's probably why he signed polinia because he wasn't worried about those things so he didn't need those things um because i i think if you see benton core even in the game against um brighton you saw a lot more progression yeah it was it was it was like hold on where's this player been for a bit exactly Wanted to get forward.

14:16Exactly. And I don't think Benton Kaur is a well-beater. I don't think Benton Kaur is the answer to every problem. But he's certainly been poor compared to what we expect. Yeah, 100%. And also, he's definitely not a relegation candidate at midfielder, right? He's probably a midfielder at this stage of his career who is more than good enough to get us into like a seventh place in the Premier League. And so, yeah, I think towards the end, I realised that while personnel was an issue, under Frank, a lot of the issues were maximised by the lack of freedom given to midfielders and bravery instilled in players to play forward.

14:57There was this idea that to not take risks is a bigger risk. And if you're inviting on teams to press you because they know that you're not going to try and open them up, which leads to at least some mistakes that lead to opportunity. and Spurs were top of the table, not for the first time in the last few years, for mistakes leading to big chances.

15:22So it came, and I want to go back to Frank's relationship with the squad, but it came to January and we had the opportunity to perhaps fix this. And perhaps the reason why we didn't fix it was because Frank didn't want it, right? It's like you say, it was this, he had a way that he thought would work and it wasn't playing through the middle and splitting defences and trying to find players in spaces. But it was to process the ball down the wings and cross, I'd imagine, because he loved crossing so much. It's just weird. Some managers would be kind of evangelical about crossing the ball. And you're watching Guardiola.

15:56And Guardiola isn't a fair comparison because he's a genius. But the balls never get crossed unless they're in a position where they've hit the byline or Haaland is in acres, which is why Arlen doesn't touch the ball so often. But when he does, it's... Anyway, yeah, it was like our tactic was to get it to Porro by the end, on that right, and whip it in. And the amount of times Romero connected with crosses, our centre-back to score the one against West Ham is a case in point. We had opportunities to change the way we didn't. We bought Connor Gallagher, who was another player. I was excited because I'm always excited when we sign a player.

16:34I hope that they do well. But again, with the help of hindsight, He's just another footballer that we've got many of, and none of them are press resistant. None of them seem to be able to comfortably receive on the half turn. They can't take balls from centre-backs. They can't play through the press.

16:59I would say they can hold position. It's not a problem there, but they're just fine. In a system that needs that specific type of player, then fine but you've got Saar, Gallagher, Bereval and I'd say Gray is a slight outlier to those three but comparable players some better than the other yeah and I just that Gallagher signing from the jump just completely threw me off I just had no idea what the thinking there was I think I think that position was probably our most stacked position in the squad I did another one and we just bought another one and I just didn't I just didn't get it um because you know there was areas in the squad that were depleted badly um even if they would have said you know um which they they kind of said towards the end of the window we didn't panic right we we we didn't that that would have been my thinking on the midfielder maybe because that is such a big position for us maybe wait until the summer to sign that that proper midfielder and do it properly but just to sign another one of the players we have already that that now you're going to struggle to probably shift um and neglecting i think other positions which were were huge issues in january like um i mean we've we've played basically played half a season without a single winger at the club which is just unforgivable um a makeshift left back in jed spence playing there most of the time and that was the other one the like a left-sided defender whether whether you You buy a left-foot centre-back that can play left-back or Van der Ven can cover a left-back or you sign a proper out-and-out left-back.

18:41I mean, we obviously signed a kid, but I don't think he was even meant to play games. I think he was a project signing. Let alone start on the right side of midfield. We'll come on to that. So one of the things I can understand by bringing Gallagher might have been a sensible acquisition was because I think there's an issue, a genuine issue with kind of leadership. And I did an episode of this podcast with a sports psychologist called Dan Abrahams, who's, it was a previous, the last episode. So by all means, go back and listen to it. But he's worked with Prem Football Clubs. He worked with Arna Slott at Feyenoord.

19:23And he said that the impact of losing, there's an impact of losing managers, obviously. there's an impact of things happening in the boardroom that will filter down to the pitch in the first team but losing Harry Kane and Son in the space of a couple of years you can't as a playing group replace that and expecting Romero he didn't say this but this is what I this is what I gathered from what he was saying is replacing him with that the leadership being Romero and Vicario just doesn't cut in the same way that Sonny did because and he broke that he was really interesting he broke down like the five elements of captain needs and not all captains have all five sonny had all five um kane perhaps didn't but whereas he wasn't a great orator but he led by example and that's often why you see the very best players in the squads eventually make up the captain because of the example they set to the players whereas romero's example isn't necessarily a positive one all the time so there is there is an idea that the signings of what would have been Andy Robinson who would have been that left-hand side but also learned in the game and well experienced and Gallagher might have brought that leadership maps perhaps that's what they're after which is I guess I'm getting to a point now whereas I think the squad didn't believe in Thomas Frank yeah um and I think that's that's what you've seen played out and that's what you'll see and play out with like Leon Rosinha is that whatever his methods and messages were, they just, they didn't work.

20:57And you heard after he was sacked, you know, the rumours from Matt Law, for example, was talking about how they, you know, there was a constant references to Arsenal as an example for how to do things right, which is probably fair, unfortunately, but not what you want to hear all the time. Do you think that he did lose the players? Do you think they were playing for him? So I think the first point you made in terms of like leadership and stuff, I think 100 % huge, huge, huge factor in terms of like psychologically and those things. I think those are the kind of things for me that if I'm building a squad come after, right?

21:36So I think you sign, what does this squad need in terms of football? What does this squad need on the pitch, right? And then you might have four options for a specific role. let's say a deep line midfielder who can pass the ball and then you start delving into okay this guy's you know played x amount of seasons he's he's a great character for example and then you start pitching those players against each other in that way I think to sign a player for their personality first before thinking how do they actually fit into the squad is is backwards thinking i think those are the kind of things you add on top um and i and you know it's it's all good good signing a player who's who's maybe got good leadership or or a good work ethic or all those kind of things but if they're not going to be performing well on that team those things aren't going to be valued you need to structure in place and then add yeah because if you know even if you if you're let's say playing five a side and there's a guy shouting you and he's the worst player on the pitch that's not he's not helpful you know you need you need you need someone who's who's also performing to a certain level and Gallagher was never going to come in and perform to a good level because he's not when we weren't going to use him in that way um and so I think that that that's clear and I think in terms of Frank losing the players I think 100 100 I think players don't especially the kind of players we've bought right they've a lot of them have come from good clubs maybe good clubs abroad that maybe aren't as good as what Premier League top clubs are but they're used to having a lot of the ball they used to being proactive they used to being instructed to to you know what are we going to do to the opposition rather than this is how the opposition are going to hurt us and so I think when a manager is so focused on out of possession focused on stopping the opposition focused on the kind of the small things like set pieces and those kind of things I think a player who's playing at a club like Spurs is going to get very frustrated by that and bored by that and not really understand the buy-in It's the pragmatism that isn't exciting is it?

23:50You know you think what Thomas Frank was like in the press room what would he be like in the changing room? we are going to lose matches I can guarantee you that like that was that was then the alarm bells were ringing and I think we were kind of trying to read between lines and it was just a terrible thing to say so if he was if he wasn't landing in the in the press conferences he clearly I don't think he was landing in the dressing room which is why despite Postacoglu's failings in the Premier League as our manager the players were and that bought in with him and did trust him, I think. So, yeah, I think also that he lost the dressing room.

24:34Did you think that we waited too long to remove him? 100%. Really? What point did you? I first said it after the Arsenal game, which was way, way before. It was November. That was what, November was it? I think so, yeah. Yeah. So I felt the same then. I see the referee's head, but I just said it was an embarrassment. I said I think I think he should go after that game and then it never it never got better after that but I think you kind of reserved when we're having these conversations you kind of you don't want to say you don't want to come across as like trigger happy no trigger happy people typically in football are just emotional ones but there was something wrong wasn't it and that's the I just didn't see it changing I just thought this is just going to this is just going to continue so like we might as well cut our losses now because I just saw the way he was approaching games and I don't think it ever shifted.

25:32I think the clear one for me, which I was like, I don't know how he's still here, is the Burnley game, which was we drew last minute. True. Yeah. And I was thinking, I was like, yeah, he's definitely gone. He has to be gone. I can't remember what, I think that was January maybe? Yeah. Who was that? And I was just like, and it was like, I'd check my phone every day and I'd be like, oh, he's still here. How is he still here? My brother, Joe, he might be listening to this. He would go in the WhatsApp group and he's going, he's got to go today, isn't he, boys? He's got to go today. He must've been doing this for about a month.

26:15Yeah, no, literally. And you're seeing the media as well. That was the thing that was driving me insane. Like the mainstream media who were just constantly being like, this isn't on Frank. like Frank's he's doing an okay job like I don't like you guys are not watching us I don't I don't understand how how he's getting away with this and yeah and then what was the what was the final game that he he got what was the final oh god so it was before Arsenal because Tudor took the Arsenal game didn't he yeah so whatever it was I can't remember it felt like more of a slow death it wasn't like it wasn't like this is the game that ended him.

26:54It was just like, this is coming at some point and it did in the end. Yeah, I'm just Googling just for the sake of it. We lost 2-1 at home to Newcastle. Yes. And then... Yes, I remember. 16th in the Premier League. But pretty... I think we were about six points clear of West Ham at that point. Yeah. Because West Ham had beaten us the week before, two weeks before, something like that. And... That one as well. I don't know, how did he survive that one? The West Ham home loss. I was at the game as well. And you can, the atmosphere was poisonous. It was almost comical how bad it was. The shit that was coming out of people's mouths surrounded me.

27:38And it was just, it was like, you're clear. It's done. You've lost everything. The crowd, everybody. And he wasn't sacked at that point, even though you could hear it. And if you believe the rumours, it was Venkatesha Manlangar who were saying, no we've got to stick with him. I've been contesting him of course, showed patience with Arteta in the early days when he most likely would have been sat by most other big clubs and there was a fear or conversation at least that he's doing the same with Frank, he's going to stick by him because that's what worked before and it was a member of the Lewis family who decided no he's got to go.

28:14Now correct decision, however it's and I've said this many times it's very scary when you've got people who aren't involved in football but involved in business making football decisions even if they make they get it right every now and then um so that kind of lack of leadership and um decision making and or even if it's you're making the decision you're making the wrong decision impacted us massively and then there was just another crazy decision which is to bring in Igor Tudor which it just came out of absolutely nowhere I don't know if it was a parting gift from Paratici I think he would have definitely had a role in that yeah well I mean Juve he'd known him, worked with him yeah so what went wrong there?

29:07so I felt like I was, I was, I kind of you know it wasn't it wasn't even on the kind of radar of most of us so but I felt like when I looked into him and stuff I thought this could work to get us on point. Did you have a conversation with Luca by any chance? Yeah I did have a conversation with Luca I did a podcast with Luca and I was like by the end of it I was like yeah he's the one yeah yeah I saw him afterwards we did something afterwards and he was like I'm sorry about that I did believe that he was the one, but no. Yeah, I think what I kind of thought for him was that he's going to be very specific about what he wants.

29:53He's going to be very on the players, aggressive, kind of fire like a rocket up them. And maybe they just need that. Maybe they need someone to take control, right? And someone to take the kind of responsibility off them a little bit and just tell them exactly what they need to do. be very disciplined, hard on them. I remember him making them do lots of running and they were one of the lowest distance covered teams in the league and I don't think that's all, that's not effort. I think a lot of that's tactical, but those kind of things and I thought he'd simplify things and I thought he would just pick up some results.

30:35I never thought like this guy's going to get the job full-time afterwards or anything, but I thought he would I thought just the switch up in mood as well would kind of do something and I felt like he was going to be more forward thinking he was going to be more aggressive whereas Frank, a lot of Frank's tenure we just pass the ball around the back right because we were trying to draw teams in and then hit them on the break artificially kind of so I thought he'd get the ball forward more we play in their half, it would be kind of back to basics but he'd be very specific but it just it never took off really um yeah no i i agree i mean listening to him talk was one thing um you know in terms of you know he wants to attack but attack with um when a degree of sensibility um and then you know after the first game he said that's a clear there are many problems at top them and you're like what what tell us because like we'd love to know what's wrong with all these players but there's lots of problem then you're hearing these things and you know oh my god but what what did he i can't tell what he's what tactic he was most comfortable with because he did so much in the space of i don't know four or five games we played four different systems that we originally thought it'd be a back three which it was back three with um you know using poro and spence but when the doggy come back a doggy and that made sense and having two tens of Xavi and Mouane, all right, I'm fine with that too.

32:06Still got a problem in midfield, but Gray's starting to pick, maybe this is going to work and he just chose to do mad things like, no, we're going to use Gray as a wing back and we're going to put Porro as a centre-back free, which I guess tactically, I guess there is some use in that because he can pass and play long balls, Porro, and he can damage from that area of the pitch. And Romero was out at that point, right? That's right. I think he was. Yeah. Cause we had a, it was Dan. So van der Ven and, and I think it worked, but it just seemed to make the basic, he was making basic decision-making that didn't align with what I thought he should be doing as a podcaster of 14 years.

32:50You tell yourself, no one wants your college era band tease, but on Depop, people are searching for exactly what you've got. You once paid a small fortune for them at merch stands. Now, a teenager who calls them vintage will offer that same small fortune back. Sell them easily on Depop. Just snap a few photos and we'll take care of the rest. Who knew your questionable music taste would be a money-making machine? Your style can make you cash. Start selling on Depop, where taste recognizes taste. Yeah, I think that specific situation, I think, for me, didn't make sense because, you know, just don't play a back three.

33:28if you don't have the centre-backs to play a back three. Don't. Because we needed... You have to have Poro in deep areas because this is the squad we've built. And when you don't have Romero there, you need someone who can break lines. We don't have it in midfield. So you need it somewhere. And Poro, you know, Poro is the... This is why Poro has played so many minutes for us because we don't have alternatives to kind of build from the back with. And I don't even think Poro... You know, he has very good moments, but he's not incredibly reliable at that but he's the one that can do it yeah i think it's just in i think in one area of the pitch he is incredible and that's receiving the ball in the final third on the right hand side yeah at that point he's very dangerous but other parts i also think we've overplayed him to a crazy extent that he must be knackered and i think you see that sometimes with the the decisions he makes um the quality on some of his crosses i do think he's better than what we've seen because you know He's barely had a rest.

34:28He never gets injured. So yeah, I think that decision was baffling. I also just didn't really get a gauge of his style at all while he was here in terms of Tudor. So it's really hard to know what was... I think you're right in terms of the players never seem to respond to him. And I think sometimes a lot of these players have signed for a long-term project and when you bring in an interim, who we know is not going to be there at the end of the season, in a side that's like, you know, maybe used to think about relegation and thinking about bottom of the table, they might be like, okay, yeah, we need to stay up, guys.

35:10For a side that most of the players have joined to play Champions League football, European football, to suddenly be like, oh, we need to all buy into this interim manager, they're probably not really thinking about that until suddenly now it's a reality that they could get relegated. I think for that, they're probably just going through the motions a little bit. I think the first time I genuinely thought we were going to get relegated was the Fulham game, his second game. Yes. We played a 4-4-2. Gallagher on the right-hand side of Midfield. Oh, yes. I thought they've given up. They've given up.

35:43It looks like the players have just... They will put in the 70 % that makes them look like professional footballers and Premier League level standard. but that extra bit that you need in order to win football matches or certainly not lose them or get outplayed the way we did in that game it wasn't there and I'd never really witnessed the team give up a spurs side give up on the situation I've never seen that before I've never I've never really understood what it meant when players hid play hide and I've seen it at Tottenham this season and all of this is about leadership and it's about being encouraged and creating an environment for these you know in many cases kids but you know professional footballers who are human beings there's this idea that you know while they get paid millions of pounds they should be able to handle this they should be able to put in 100 effort every week regardless of the situation they shouldn't listen to the boos they shouldn't be impacted by xyz but they're human beings of course they are again and that's something that we touched on in the episode with Dan about the emotional impact of various situations they've found themselves in this season and getting players to buy in and believe in what you're trying to do it just gives you five percent out of nowhere and it didn't seem like he did and that Fulham game I thought yeah that was a problem but then you go to Liverpool and you play good like Liverpool have been pretty average this season to poor you play good and then you smash athletic game we're smash we played really well against athletic madrid and then i'm like wow we are staying up um and then forest happens so it was clear but from all of that the reason why i bring all that up is because it's just been a mess and players regardless of how good or how much they get paid and i'm not excusing them because they're culpable they're in this we're in this situation because of their inability to to to enact what they've been told to in the dressing room and put it on the pitch and make it work.

37:46Systematically, there might be problems. There definitely was problems. But you don't go 120 days or whatever it's been without a win if you've got the players of a certain standard because none of them are taking the mantle. None of them are deciding to lead on the pitch, by example. But we did move on to the Zerbe, who you think, And this is the easiest part of this conversation, Kish, is because we don't have to prove any of the things we're saying.

38:19Regardless of whether he stays in the league or not, it has to be fixed, this lack of identity at the football club and lack of culture and have an idea about what kind of club we are and what kind of foot we want to place and what kind of person you have to be in order to play at Tottenham. And I think as mad as De Zerbi's been in the past, it's someone like him that needed to come in to instill that. And there is a massive, there's loads of room for him to breathe at Tottenham because there just isn't anything above him worth really talking about. Lange, Venkatesham has a different role, but Lange, he's going to get carte blanche, it feels.

39:02and maybe we need that at this stage because everything we've discussed on this episode comes from it comes from a lack of culture in the dressing room i think yeah it's really interesting to know who who really went and got deserby like was it vinyle taking credit langer is he's he's taking credit he's saying he was our number one target for the summer and we to bring him in now. Yeah, but it feels weird because I would imagine that possibly both Vinay and Lange will be gone at the end of the season or definitely should be. I think there's no debating that. I think Lange has to. I don't think Vingotation will.