The Lab | The Beautiful Rivalry: The People, Pubs and Pavements of Spurs vs Arsenal

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0:40Hello, welcome back to The Lab. Today we're joined by Adam Catterall, broadcaster, storyteller and host of Fight Disciples to discuss his new football documentary series, The Beautiful Divide. The opening film explores the rivalry between Tottenham and Arsenal not simply through results and famous matches, but through the supporters, pubs, families and streets that give the North London Derby its identity. Adam explains why he wanted to look beyond the commercial version of modern football and find the emotion, tribalism and genuine human stories that exist beneath it. We discuss the characters he met around Tottenham, the importance of places like the Bill Nicholson pub, a tense encounter while filming in Finsbury Park and the unforgettable claim that while Arsenal may have dominated on the pitch, Spurs have dominated the pavements.

1:26We also discuss whether the two clubs, for all the hatred between them, ultimately need one another. It's a conversation about rivalry, belonging, working-class football culture, and why Spurs against Arsenal remains one of the most authentic divides in the game. As Adam put it, making the film reminded him of what football felt like before VAR, commercialisation, and everything else began getting in the way. If you want to watch The Beautiful Divide, the first episode of it, then click the link that's in the description below or visit the Score90 YouTube channel.

2:20They're stabbing each other with nonsense. They're deluded. We're Arsenal. They're Spurs. Fuck you three, you cuckoo! It's always going to be hatred between us and them. I could tell some stories, but I might get pulled in for them.

3:02Adam, before we get into the show, there's a clip that I've seen so many times, I always watch it and I never imagined I'd really get an opportunity to speak to you about it but you sat down to interview John Jones and there was this there was an issue between Tom Aspinall and Jon Jones and Jon Jones didn't seem to want that fight and he sat down and heard your accent and what happened? What happened? So for those that haven't seen it, I was at the Jon Jones-Stipan Miocic fight. At the time Jon Jones had been out for a year and he was the undisputed heavyweight champion with the UFC in that interim period they had crowned an interim champion in Tom Aspinall, obviously a British fighter.

3:47And for me, the right thing was always when you have an interim champion, well, the interim champion fights the undisputed champion when the undisputed champion is back. And therefore we eradicate one of those belts because we don't want confusion as to who the real champion is in the division. I was outspoken about that for about a year, but Jones came back, didn't fight Tom Aspinall. Jones came back and fought Stephen Miocic. And I was out there covering the Jones-Miocic fight. Tom Aspinall was actually in town. I think he was in the same hotel at that particular time. And when Jones walked in for his one-on-one interview with me, he's obviously seen myself.

4:24And at the time, me and Tom were making a TV show together for TNT Sports. We were doing a lot. Listen, I'm not backwards and coming forwards in this. Me and Tom are mates. And we have been for a long period of time since he's been at Cage Warriors, obviously coming into the UFC. He's a British fighter. My job is obviously to showcase the profiles of these British fighters and stick them on a worldwide scale. Tom, just coincidentally at that time, was the interim champion. So John automatically thought when he walked into the room, even though I've interviewed him on many occasions before, he thought it was going to be an Aspinall fest, as he referred to it.

4:58And he refused to sit down and have that conversation. I spoke to him in the corridor afterwards. He was cool. I would hope that the audience that do tune into me covering the UFC would think that I'm professional enough to, and respectful enough for these fantastic athletes that despite friendships and whatever emotional connections I have to people, I will always give a first shake to everybody. I'm not denying there wouldn't have been maybe a question about Tom Aspinall, given the fact that he was the interim champion at that time. That probably would have been a question, but it wouldn't have been an Aspinall fest.

5:32I could talk to you all day about this, I promise you, but we do have to move on because we have a point here. And what you, your career, for those that don't know, your career has been about covering the fight game in its various forms boxing and USC mainly so it's interesting that you've gone into making this this series of videos about rivalries in football and I was just wondering like so much of the documentary the first episode is about Spurs and Arsenal, is about the stuff that happens off the pitch. And I wonder if there was a link to that. Is that what drew you to it? Is it finding out about the core of the rivalry and what exists outside of what happens on the pitch and what might happen as entered in the documentary, what happens on the pavement?

6:24Ultimately, mate, I'm a storyteller. As I was just highlighting there, the fascination that I have with fight sports, even though I absolutely love the intricacies of combat, it's the actual people that participate in the combat. They've all got mad stories. They've all come, I think, over the years, football has kind of moved itself away from the working class man. When I was a kid growing up in the 80s and early 90s, I felt incredibly connected to my football club. My football club's Blackburn Brothers, right? So I could go down the local park and watch Kenny Dalgleish train Alan Shearer before they built Brockle, right?

6:58That's how close you were as a kid off from school, licking off to go and watch the lads train. You genuinely felt like you were connected to it. And as I was growing up, getting into 18, 19 years of age, I'd be drinking in the same pubs as the likes of David Dunn, who's the same age as me, those types of lads. So I felt really connected to my football club. And over the years, that has got further and further and further away. I've always been a fight fan. Fight sports and fighters are the closest I think you can have when we're talking about athletes and the working man. Lots of these fighters have two jobs in order to pay their way through these professional careers up until to a certain point.

7:34So that's probably why I've gravitated towards it most, being able to tell their stories. Now, for the last two years, I've always wanted, when I went to, for example, I work at TalkSport as well. So when I originally went to TalkSport, I went to cover football. And it was one of those where I was knocking down the door to say, listen, we need to cover fight sports. That's why we went down that route. But I was originally covering football. I've always been a football fan as I said home of the way with Blackburn Roves it's a long period of time before obviously work kind of taken over my kids are football mad they all play footy so I'm bang into it and what I wanted to do was to create a piece of content as we have done that tells the more true story because I think when you tune into the Soccer Saturdays and your Sunday football and all this type of stuff with Sky Sports and this is no disrespect to them they just tell the tale of this commercial colossus now.

8:29That's what it is. But there are some real stories underneath that. It's still real life for people who go to work Monday to Friday. They eat, breathe, and shit their club. Sorry if I'm not allowed to swear. No, you're right. You're right. It is their life. And the thing that fascinates me the most, which kind of connects back to my working life in fight sports, or rivalries. Where's the needle? Not necessarily the needle on the pitch between Keane and Vieira. Where's the needle on the pavements, man? Where is it when you're going to work on a Monday? Where is it when you're in the pub on a Friday?

9:07Who are you having your little banter? Because that's the beautiful thing about it. The banter that you have back and forth with rival sets of fans, yeah, sometimes it does spill over. So let's tell the tale of that. Why does it spill over? So that's kind of where we were at with the lads at Score90 and what we wanted to try and achieve. and it definitely comes through for sure i actually think the beautiful divide which is the name of the series it's quite a brave thing to do um the way you told the story the people you spoke to it's become taboo and and and it's a shame i'm never i'm never saying that anyone should go to football and be worried or be scared or or be attacked or or get caught up in something they want that they don't want to and very even during the 80s when i started going watching spurs and through the 90s it was very rare that anyone who wasn't game for one better expression would end up getting involved and as the sort of tight the the grip of of of sky sports and the globalization of the premier league and all these amazing things that have really developed what the product is now what was lost is that really some of the the real individuals who um that make cup the fan base it's not just the ones that tune in from all over the all over the planet and i'm in a pains to say that they're all valued but the match they're going fan has sort of their importance has withered and it's a shame because it's the part of my your your your youth and my youth and and and the stories that the people that you speak to in the show are fascinating and it made me long for just just for a bit to go back and you know play west ham again and and see what it's like and have them turn up have arsenal turn up there was a moment in it and i kind of like i'm hesitant to say but i am going to because the point of this conversation where the one of the spurs lads that you were talking to said or actually it might have been lead judges i'm not sure one of the one someone who said in the show was we have to make it as uncomfortable as possible for arsenal fans to come to top them and play and that's not a popular thing to say in the modern era but it's one that I kind of even now as a 44 year old man I kind of take pride in that weirdly that's the connection mate that's what that's what kind of I'm referring to with football being I know what you were referring to before about the globalization of football right and therefore you get glory hunter fans you get fans from all over the world fans that haven't lived it and And again, I'm not aiming disrespect because everybody's welcome.

11:35It is a global game and everybody's welcome to support whoever they want to support. But there's a realism about this piece that we've made where it highlights just the attitudes of these fans. It's us against them. And that's the beautiful thing for me about this sport. It is. It's us against them. It's me against you. it's you know families are divided by these particular things so therefore for uh lee judges is hilarious when we're talking about it from an arsenal point of view where he has members of his family that are spurs fans you know um i think he's even in the documentary he says that i think one of his uh spurs family members has named his nephew ken so he's got to live with that that's part that's part of the life that he that he's living but when it gets to friday and you lads are playing each other on the Sunday.

12:25Nah, phone goes off, clear off. I'm Arsenal, you're Spurs. It's me against you. Let's have it. And that's why we fell in love with this game, innit? We fell in love with this game because of emotion, because of passion. Stuff like tiny little things like VAR and stuff like that is diluting those particular moments. So the whole point of this piece of content was to go and try and find those moments. Do they still exist? Are people still living it? like I used to live it in the 90s when I was a kid, absolutely falling in love with it. And they absolutely are, especially at the Bill Nick Pub Met.

13:00What a gaffe that is, by the way. There's a few banging pubs. One of the shames, I mean, the new stadium is 100, what is it, generates 100 million pounds a year and all these wonderful things that enables us to spend money on Tonali and Fernandes and whatnot. But there are great pubs where people are perhaps choosing, certain newcomers to Tottenham are choosing to go and drink in the stadium when there's amazing pubs like the Bill Nick. What are they doing? Go to the Bill Nick, right? Go and watch David Bentley on karaoke with a rabbi on a match day. A rabbi, yeah. And have a couple of beers with everybody.

13:28You know, so why Spurs and Arsenal? Why is that the first one in the series? I think there's a lot of plastic rivalries in football. And that's no disrespect to certain cities and certain rivalries. I think a lot of them are manufactured. And I know there's an element of manufacturing with this, with geography, woolwich, all that type of thing. But again, working at TalkSport, there's a lot of Spurs lads, there's a lot of Arsenal lads in there. And obviously there's lads that support Chelsea, Fulham and all this type of stuff. But just listening to the type of conversation they had, it resonated with me more.

14:04I mean, my rivalry in Blackburn is against Burnley. So the way that we speak about that game is a certain way. And I found the intonations and not necessarily, yeah, venom is probably the right word, the words that were being used from the Arsenal lads and the Spurs lads when that game came around. And I'm thinking, from an Arsenal point of view, I'm looking at it going, well, you lot are going for the championship, but your head's still in Spurs. You know what I mean? That's the game that you're all over throughout the whole course of the season from a Spurs point of view. I'm thinking, you lads are hanging on from relegation, but all they're asked about is going, we need to turn over Arsenal, mate.

14:39So it was that, really. It was those types of conversations where I thought, there's something in that. That's a real rivalry. It feels real. It doesn't feel like it's manufactured. It feels authentic. And that's kind of where we wanted to be when we launched this. We did spend a little bit of time in Glasgow at the start of the year for Rangers Celtic. Very similar, mate. Trust me. I know there's a political element to that and a religious element connected to that one. But again, when we're talking about the venom in the way that people speak about each other, there's definitely a similarity to some extent.

15:13But we found that once we'd made the content, as you'll see, the characters, you mentioned the rabbi, absolute lunatic. The people in the Bill Nick pub, they're eat, breathe, and shit, this stuff. And obviously the lads at Arsenal Fan TV, you can't get a more absolutely all-in on Arsenal fan-driven account than them. True. Yeah, that's fair. I mean, that's about as much as I'd be willing to pay tribute to them. To give them, yeah. They're all in. They're all in. No, they're all in for sure. They're for sure. I've done a bit of work with lead judges. I know him. We've got each other's numbers. We speak semi-regularly, and he is, as far as they go, one of the better ones.

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16:44Whether you're a small business or managing a large operation, Odoo gives you one flexible platform built to grow with you. Learn more at odoo.com. That's O-D-O-O dot com. Stream the biggest moments in sports live on Fox One. The biggest names, the biggest games, the biggest matchups. Watch live or catch up on your schedule. At home or on the go, never miss a moment. All on Fox 1. Stream now. Bad, mate. Well, it's at the end. I mean, towards the really touching thing. Somehow I was watching the show, which there's going to be a link in the description to the episode. So anyone listening to this and want to find it, you'll be able to click on that.

17:27And it's live now. you managed to find there's this link between the two rivalries the two clubs that are involved in this rivalry and the question you asked and I won't divulge anything but the question you asked them is do you need each other? Batman needs the Joker does Tottenham need Arsenal? that was a surprisingly touching moment in the documentary and it is quite hard hitting. Yeah, man. And it's, listen, again, it's hard to talk about it without giving it away because I want people to go watch it. But you're right. And for all the hate, and there's a lot of that, there's also a lot of love, man.

18:14And that's what this story is. It's a love and hate relationship where you love to hate the other, but without it, you'd be lost. And I think that really comes through. asking that question I mean to lads that used to be in the firm and banning orders for spurs and all this type of stuff and just watch them just pause for a second to just process it because their whole head has been I hate these I want to get stuck into them and all that and I've just been speaking to them for half an hour about you know getting themselves in all sorts of bother and banning orders and all this type of stuff and then they go yeah yeah mate you're right yeah I do actually need them yeah you're right honestly I can't tell you I hate them as much as I love Tottenham.

19:01But you need them though, don't you, Flav? Come on, let's be honest. You need them. You need them in your life. Adam, I genuinely think if there's a button I could press and they all disappear, I'd press it. But you miss them. I'd miss beating them. No, you've got to remember. No, I know. No, of course, of course. And seeing any kind of, you know, I've been replaying. Any better than the halfway line. Come on, how much does that make you feel? Come on. Yeah. I mean, I've watched Gabrielle smash it over the bar about 400 times. That's a hair watch. That's nothing to do with you. What are you playing at, man?

19:30Come on. No, it is everything to do with me. It's everything to do with all of us. Yeah, I just think I thought it was fantastic. I just thought it was so interesting, the characters you managed to get together because I've been producing sort of films and whatnot myself. And we were doing something around a book called Tottenham Boys We Are Here, which was a really old photo journalistic book from a guy from, from called Paul Womble from Yorkshire. And when he was 21, as his final piece for his university degree, he went down and photographed Spurs when they were in the division two. And there's this book of amazing characters and it's almost like a Bible for Spurs fans.

20:08And also for the kind of, the kind of hooligan element of one for better expression. It's a Bible for them as well. And we wanted to make a film about it. And there's someone in, I found it so difficult to get anyone to speak that would talk on it openly. And the lads you got on, was that easy getting that, the production side of it? No, it's not, mate. And I've got to take my hat off to them for being so accommodating because as we experienced when we were in Glasgow, there is a taboo still to some of the things that these lads have been up to and what have you. And, you know, some of them haven't been done for some of the things that they're talking about.

20:43So the last thing they want to do is actually go and incriminate themselves and stick stuff on camera, isn't it? So yeah, I take my hat off to the, mainly the Spurs lads, because it was them boys that they'd step forward and said, listen, yeah, absolutely. We'll talk about X, Y, and Z. And I think the thing from our point of view at school in 90 was to give them one, the freedom and confidence to speak about however they wanted to speak about it. be open be it natural be authentic and then at the end let's let's have an honest conversation of what you're comfortable with what you're not comfortable with because it's not live so therefore there's an edit editing process you tell us say have you gone too far with that have we gone too far with this what's the scenario Tottenham lads were sound they just went mate I've said it I'm happy with that let's get this let's get this thing out there for you years of interviewing people um you know the experience you you had when you're in that situation where you know you want more from your um subject to your interview um how difficult is it to know how when to push or how to to try and get more information out was that an issue because i when when i had the experience i felt like there was a line i wasn't willing to cross i knew that i didn't want to agitate or ask them anything even though i wanted their answer like there was a moment where trevor paused he's about to say something he said pause and then he he didn't And obviously it's chopped and well edited so that that sort of hesitation where they were bridging what they are able to say about what they've got up to and what they're happy to say on film.

22:15How did you negotiate that? It's like any conversation. It's like this, mate. You're reading that person, aren't you? I think when you go into a conversation like that, there's the out what you want. You want them obviously to talk about how bad it was, the things that they've been up to, the depths that they've gone to, away from obviously just supporting their club. Of course, you want all that. But then you've kind of just got to fly by the seat of your pants a little bit. Yeah, you take them on that journey and you build it to a particular point and you've just got to read that human being.

22:50If they're opened up and they're saying stuff. And I think the key thing in those conversations is listening because they might say stuff that you hadn't actually accounted for. So therefore, if they've said it, then you can start to poke in that direction because that might open a particular door down here. But then again, like you just said, you mentioned Trev there, that there was definitely a moment in this conversation where he's just about to talk about something maybe that he shouldn't be talking about. And he does. And then you just go, he takes a breath, doesn't he? And he goes, I'm not going to talk about that.

23:20We're going to go down this route. that's your sign listen you can't have anything more concrete as a sign there can you I'm not going to talk about that bang okay we're not going to talk about that mate I'm not going to push you on it I'm not going to be a prick about it we're going to go down we're going to go down this road I enjoyed his intensity when the way he was he could answer questions I thought he was quite intense and I was quite weirdly kind of proud of the interviews you got from Spurs fans Spurs I think they yeah mate I think they came across absolutely superb because like like you just said you're walking into an environment where you don't necessarily know those characters those personalities how they're going to react at the end of the day they don't really know me they don't know what i'm up to they don't know what i'm trying to do am i trying to catch him out no i'm not i'm trying to tell the story of this derby and you are the guys that i need in order to be able to tell this properly you know um so again it's a little bit of time of just building trust building trust with people hopefully they watch it tonight and they go, yeah, man, you've represented us and our football club properly.

24:19So, and that's the end. I'm not, I'm not here to try and stitch anybody up or do anybody over. I want, I want Spurs fans and I want Arsenal fans to look at this and go, yeah, man, that's what we do. That's what, that's our, that's the rivalry. That's what, that's what we get up to. That's, that's, that's, that's always the worry when you're watching it as a fan. You're like, how, how well is this going to portray our rivalry and how well is it going to portray our football club? And you've nailed it really. like there was nothing I looked at when I watched it and thought that wasn't right or that that that was perfect really really great stuff the bits when the Arsenal fans were on the screen I had to kind of I can't quite I didn't look at it much I listened in the car but I wouldn't really I wouldn't really look at it it's weird weird you should have been on it listen after this stuff that you're coming out you're you're living the rivalry right now pal you should have been on it Well, maybe next time.

25:10But the 20, 30 years in the making, I grew up in Holloway in North London, Frenzy Park, where you had a very awkward interview because people kept accosting you, didn't they? I just want to ask you about that in a second. But yeah, that's the area I grew up in, Rank Arsenal area, Blackstock Road. And I went to Highbury Grove School, which was a link. So the hatred I have from them is from years of kind of bullying and being berated for being a Spurs fan, right? So it's not just the hatred, the stuff on top that makes me especially bitter about it. You need to get that looked at, Flav. Never. No, it's me.

25:44It's who I want. If there's an opportunity now to get Arsenal fans and I get a lot of stick from them online on social media and whatnot, then I'll take it because I remember what I went through at Highbury Grove School. The interview with the Arsenal lad, he's got a face covered. You'll see it in the thumbnail of this documentary. A really nice thumbnail, by the way. and the main Arsenal guy you spoke to whose identity was protected has like an Arsenal balaclava which looks great for the interview but you're in the middle of Frinsby Park are you aware of Frinsby Park as a place before why do you think we chose it?

26:25I wasn't surprised that you were approached at some stage it's not the safest place on that what happened? as you say it's a notorious place isn't it when you're talking about the battlefield of Arsenal and Spurs in over recent years. So, yeah, I'm going to put that down to our production team, mate, for putting me in harm's way. What happened? Because you had to pause, right? Yes. So we were speaking to a young lad from the Arsenal side of business and he chose, I did say, listen, cover your face, balaclava up. I thought you were going to come with a black balaclava. Don't make it obvious, mate.

27:00Don't wear red and white. It was perfect. It was perfect. But he did, he did. And the interview was going sweet. We were talking about all bits of stuff that he gets up to when he's following Arsenal. And then out of nowhere, quite a few of your lot turned up, mate, you know what I mean, on their bikes and what have you, and circled us and inquired about our being in the park, speaking to an Arsenal fella. And they encouraged us, let's just say, to maybe move locations off their patch. Lovely. I'll say it like that. People can have a watch of it later on. What did you learn about Tottenham and Arsenal that you didn't already know about the rivalry?

27:42Is that a question that's easy to answer?

27:48From the rivalry point of view, it's as real as it gets. Yeah. I think I learned more about the football clubs, really, throughout this process. there is a lot of plastic about in football there's a lot of manufactured stuff it's it's very commercial now is football I get it and you know people who maybe haven't been around these two football clubs will probably say well you could say that about Arsenal you could say that about Tottenham but spending the time that I spent with these particular sets of fans it took me back it actually made me fall back in love a little bit with football and it reminded me of being 14, 15, 16 years of age when my team were actually half decent and we were home and away and we were going to various things and that's kind of where it took me.

28:41It made me forget about VAR. It made me forget about, you know, crap owners. It just made me feel again. And I think hopefully when people watch this, you'll see a real authentic view of what football is. It is essentially, I know it's not anymore, but essentially it's a working class man sport. of where you go to work five days a week, and at the weekend, you go and spend some time with your pals, you have a few beers, you sing some songs, you shout and scream at your team that's frustrating the bloody living daylights out to you, and then you go and do the exact same thing in the booze of the night.