THE LAB | The Johan Lange Reappraisal

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1:08Was Johan Langer really the problem at Tottenham or was he simply working within the restrictions imposed by Daniel Levy? Today we're joined on the lab by Athletics' Dan Kilpatrick to reassess Langer's time at Spurs from the club's controversial focus on young players and succession of questionable transfer windows to the dramatic change we've seen this summer. We discuss how much freedom Langer actually had under Levy and whether Spurs' recruitment strategy left the squad dangerously unbalanced. The influence of Roberto De Zerbi and who deserves the credit for Tottenham now attracting players such as Sandro Tonali and Matos Fernandes.

1:43Plus we rate each of Langer's transfer windows and ask whether a man who looked vulnerable just months ago is actually finally proving his worth.

1:59Hello Dan. Hello Flav. How are you? I'm doing well. We've done this before. We've done this off air. Don't worry about it. It's been better, but nothing serious. Don't worry. All right, good. Do you remember when you interviewed Langer? And I must have referenced this article a hundred times. You do reference this a lot, actually. I've noticed that on doing these with you, but also listening to other episodes of the lab. But it was the only piece that gave us any indication of what he was planning and what his role was. And we know what sporting directors do. We know what directors of football do.

2:37But in real terms and club by club, it seems to change. And I just thought it was a great piece. And I thought it gave us genuine insight into him. So that's why. Good. I mean, that's literally what you're aiming for as a reporter. You want to add some insight, maybe tell people things I don't know when you do these interviews. And I mean, I feel like I don't remember it as well as you do, or it's not as fresh in my mind as it is in yours. I've read it about three or four times. Which is good. But yeah, it certainly wasn't the least successful of those I've ever done and was probably one of the better ones.

3:19and yeah I guess I guess we were just saying before we started recording it was it was late in Poshtacogli's first season I think and so everyone was happy and that's probably where I got the interview because I asked for it and everyone was happy and clubs tend to be a lot more amenable to these requests if everyone's happy so yeah I was going to ask you how did it come about? well I mean the sort of slightly longer answer is that I've always had a thing and people have heard me talk about it on here and maybe other pods as well that like these people owners chief executives sporting directors kind of executives who are making football and non-football decisions need to be more accountable and they need to be accountable at every English club you know there's a better culture in a lot of other countries not just Spurs but Spurs were particularly bad at it at the Levy era you know Levy just never spoke you know he behaved like the monarch and just released two pre-written messages twice a year um and so i i think from memory i was kind of badgering the club i knew i wasn't going to get an interview with levy or even donna but i knew that if i kind of badgered the club enough that langer was was gettable and i think i don't think i did not you know bang the press officer's door down but i think i asked a few times and then he he came back and said oh yeah like you Actually, I've asked Johan and he's up for doing it.

4:43And so it wasn't a big secret behind it. I think a bit of persistence. And as I said, it was just lucky that Spurs felt like a club kind of on the up again under Postacoglu. Everyone liked the start of play, everyone liked the manager. There were no kind of points of contention as would arise under Postacoglu later in his tenure. So I think it was just a case of kind of lucky timing, really. I tried to get Venkatesham and I was quickly informed that every single podcast under the sun has already put in a quick question really I mean that's you know it's just exactly what they should be doing you know podcasts are you know in many ways the voice of the fan base and people hate me saying that but they are and you know it's a a yeah well yes one of one of many and the chief exec should be doing the rounds you know like a kind of beleaguered government minister who has to go on every radio show um to explain what the prime minister is doing then i should have to go on every podcast and explain what the lowest family do on i listen to radio four sometimes driving into work and every morning about 10 past eight some poor politicians come wheeled out to get absolutely crucified by whoever why are you doing this you always come across terribly stop just stop talking to him anyway i guess you have to um so i guess this podcast i've been thinking about it for a while and i was sort of generally lang's popularity has certainly before the summer begun has never been lower i think myself i was all i was convinced that he would probably have to be sacked um and then and then i kind of the summer kicked into gear and obviously we started spending and we're getting deals done quickly and we're getting players that we believed previously to be beyond us.

6:39And comparing that to when Daniel Levy was in charge of the football club, where Langer was also there, it was a completely different success rate and attitude. And I wonder if Langer has copped a lot of the blame when perhaps it wasn't necessarily his fault. And how hamstrong he was to operate under Daniel Levy was completely different to how the Lewis family are now operating, which gives money and freedom to be aggressive and go after players. And yet, De Zerbi seems to be getting all of the credit for the players coming through the door. Surely Lange has some responsibility and should take some credit for the summer's activity.

7:24So I've got plenty of questions to ask you, Dan, to try and get to the bottom of this. And I appreciate this is just a conversation. and I'm not looking for definitive answers, just your opinion really. Yeah, well, I mean, I think a good place to start with that is the expectation that Langer was going to be sacked. And I'd heard that. I'd heard that not just on the grapevine, but I'd heard that from kind of sources and people who would know, you know, people who know what's going on at Spurs had said, I think Langer will be the sacrificial lamb. And I think there was an expectation that he would pay the price.

7:59he would be the one to go to pay the price for what happened last season, kind of regardless of whether Spurs stayed up or not. I think that was the direction of travel. So that has obviously not happened. And I would say, we'll get onto this, but obviously his position is a lot more secure now and his popularity is definitely back on the up. So that's interesting. And obviously there was a lot of talk about Spurs hiring. Spurs said they were going to hire a co-sporting director to replace Pratichy and work with him. And that's not happened either. So it does feel like Langer has managed to kind of really consolidate his position and consolidate his power base at Spurs from what was, I think, a pretty difficult position.

8:44And I think if people who knew what was going on at the club were saying they thought he was going to be the full guy, it was probably because that was the noises or vibes they were picking up from whether it was Venkatesham or even you know the people above Venkatesham that you know Enoch and the Lewis family so he's obviously managed to turn things around um and yeah I mean I think to answer your big question like how responsible is he for for kind of the bad and the good I do think it is a mixture as boring as that is like i think for example what we can say is i think it's pretty obvious that if venkatesham and langer had gone to the lewis family i've got a policy of trying to trying to call them enix i'll stick to that i'd gone to enix in january why why just because i think the lewis family is just a rebrand and they're trying to make you think it's new ownership and forget that they were the ones that were making all the big decisions when levy was in charge well then they were the ones that were agreeing with all the big decisions when he Levy was in charge.

9:45We can't forget that if they had not liked the way Levy had run the club for 25 years, they could have done this 25, 24 years ago. You know, we shouldn't forget that. And I think by calling them a different name, I think they want you to think it's new people, but actually it's the same people. And they just let Daniel Levy do what he wanted. In its way, he's negligence. Well, probably because they agreed with it for a long time. Yeah. But anyway, I think it's pretty obvious that if Langer and Venkatesham had gone to Enoch, it's hard, it's hard to do, had gone to Enoch in January and said, we need to spend our way out of this situation now, then Enoch would have, the owners would have agreed and would have put some money forward.

10:32I think that's clear. So I think that was a decision that was delegated to the football people, Vinay and Langer. but equally as you point out I think there's only a certain amount of control that these kind of people have over the direction of travel and the kind of wider club policy so Lange was not able to go out and buy£100 million players when Levy was in charge because that was not the club policy he had to work within the parameters set for him by Levy and he's now working within very different parameters set by Enoch and possibly dictated by Venkatesham and Deserby and the people above them or a combination of lots of people.

11:16So I think he has made some really bad decisions. I think January was the kind of big one, the decision really not to spend. But equally, he's just done a lot of what he was told or what he was told he could do. He's worked within those parameters. So it is kind of really difficult to sort of judge guys in his position, I think, generally, because they're sort of only as good as the leash they're on. Yeah, exactly. But I think also, I think potentially when De Zerbi came in, who Lange was quoted as saying, we wanted De Zerbi, this is our decision. This is a player, a manager that we wanted perhaps in January.

11:59But the context at which he arrived, De Zerbi, was almost like it made Langer redundant because the perception was that the Zerbi has now his complete control. He'll identify targets. He'll do all of the things that are necessary in order to build the squad that he wants to build. And Langer's just sort of by the wayside of being a lapdog. That was kind of perception. But I don't necessarily think that's true. And also Langer's situation when he was, I guess the sporting director is supposed to be building and things he said in your interview. We're about building a systematic approach to winning football games in the right way.

12:40And it doesn't begin and end with Andrew Postacoglu. It should be the next manager as well. And then the next manager was Thomas Frank, which is why your article kept coming back to me is because either what he was saying he believed to be true or it led to being an impossible thing to achieve because of Daniel Levy above him. I think the latter, I think that one, in that case. You believed him when he was... Yeah, I think Langer is someone who is very kind of process-driven and is someone who is very kind of culture-driven and sort of structure-driven and would... I think Langer would... I think most supporting directors, really, apart from the kind of personality-driven ones like Pratichi, most kind of bureaucratic technical directors like Langer, I think, would like to work in a club where, you know, would like to kind of work in a Bournemouth or Brighton or Brentford where, you know, the club is, the structure is much bigger than any one individual.

13:44But I suppose they just weren't that club, never that club when Levy was in charge. They're not that club now. And the pattern of Levy's 25-year chairmanship was lurching between different styles of manager and personnel and over-correcting. And often the coach was a reaction to the coach that had gone before. And that was as true of Frank as it was of many of his predecessors, I think. So for me, that appointment had Levy's fingertips all over it. And I think it's fair to assume that Lange had to just follow the chairman on that one and kind of wasn't in a position to say, hold on, we should build on the good bits of Postacoglu rather than go for a complete reversal of him, you know, the pragmatist.

14:33Perhaps he should have said that though. Maybe that conversation did happen and he wasn't listened to. True, but don't you just think Levy just was surrounded by yes men at the end and just thought he knew? I think that's just the problem with Levy. He just thought he knew best. I think, yeah, yeah, without question. I think that anybody that survived under Daniel Levy was one that essentially supported his decisions. and to go against someone like him would be difficult to do and probably you'd want to save your job by towing the line somewhat. But in terms of language, is it fair to defend him by saying he was operating under restrictions or is finding solutions despite those restrictions really his job?

15:16I would defend him to say that Daniel Levy would never have allowed him to spend 100 million on Tonali and in the same window, 85 million on Fernandes, right? Yeah. But you would expect him to move us forward and in the two years, no, three, four years since he's been here. I think it was four years.

15:40He, I think January 24 was his first window according to this, got in front of me. He, 24. Was that right, January 24? So I've got his signings here and it says his first January window was Timo. It began when November 23 began work. Sorry. Okay. Yeah. That tallies. Yeah. Terrible podcast in there. Sorry. So I forgot. What was my question there?

16:09Yeah. So despite finding solutions for years, he should find solutions. He should be moving us forward, even if it is difficult and you would, it would be difficult to argue that he has moved this forward. Yeah, I think it would be difficult. And again, it's just so hard. It's such a boring answer, but it's just so hard to know how much of that was him just struggling to work under Levy and arguably in the first half of last season, Enoch, and how much of it was his own kind of inexperience or shortcomings. I mean I think the window that I think just felt so so frustrating looking back on was summer 24 when Spurs had had actually I think a season that doesn't get enough credit under Poster Coghury finishing 5th after losing Kane after a huge upheaval of leaving Kane and actually playing some really nice stuff I know it was a brilliant start and then it kind of really did tail off badly but I think you've got to take the season as a whole and then just signing Solanke as a senior player and the four teenagers, so Grey, Bergford, Odderbair and Yang, who didn't come immediately.

17:21It just felt like that was the summer where Spurs needed to improve the first team, not suddenly start looking five years into the future. And it did just feel like, it just felt to me like Spurs were just kind of behind the curve. You know, they were sort of looking at the success like Brighton and teams like Brighton had had it, signing good young teenage players and integrating into the team and how they'd grown that way. And thought, oh, we'll do that now. And that just wasn't the place they really needed to be. They needed to be, you know, improving the first 11 for a coach who'd had a good first season.

18:02Yeah, that window did feel like it kind of had a lot of Langer fingerprints on it. I remember, you know, there was Odebeck for instance just came out of nowhere you know no one had that story until spurs basically announced it and you know there was a lot of kind of talk about langer working in the shadows and being excellent and kind of keeping deals under wraps and so it did feel like he took ownership of that window really um but again you know what was that right yeah what was that was that levy saying you know we we can only sign kind of players on on x wages now that's the cap and which which just kind of limited them to a certain type of player.

18:38We just don't know. Yeah, I mean, I definitely think there is... We don't know, we never will, but there would be doors that would be closed to Tottenham given that they know what our way to cap would have been. This summer has proved that to be the case. But just sort of looking at the way he was operating, I remember summer 24 and a lot of... tons of chat about his ability to find talent from the youth pool if you like and taking Baraval and signing him when he was playing in the second division in Sweden before moving up and then Odabar like you say coming out of nowhere and the Korean Min-Hook as well so it felt like these are deliberate signings but it also to me felt like because Postacogna who said the same thing on Stricted Football, was that he wanted Gahey Semenyo.

19:37And there was one other as well. I can't remember. And these are players that would have improved our first team that we probably would have been able to get at the time. Pedro Neto as well was another one that was linked heavily during that window. And we chose not to do that. And then in the January afterwards, this is where I start to start giving him some credit because he brought in Matis Tell and Kinski, who were both big parts of our first XI. Archie Gray, also a big part of our first XI, and so is Berryvale. And these are players that were bought for small amounts of money, Teller side, that are worth lots more than we paid for them.

20:12So while squad building wasn't necessarily, in terms of their ability to perform in the pitch, the squad building wasn't necessarily brilliant. In terms of building a pool of players with future value, which also has its use especially with PSR and SCR brawls he was quite successful in that like Kinski True but I mean those guys wouldn't be worth nearly as much if we got relegated in either the last two seasons which nearly happened because the squad was so bad and imbalanced so yeah I mean it's easy to forget that kind of Bergwahl was wanted by Barcelona I think got his whole family over to Spain and tried to woo them.

20:55And Gray was, I think, Brentford with the main competition, but he was still a kind of really highly rated young player who'd been absolutely running games from right back in the championship for Leeds. So there were two top signings. That summer just felt like... I mean, Odder Bear is the one where you just think, Spurs just needed an experienced player in that position. And especially when Tell was kind of later at it, who just feels very similar and kind of experience and sort of profile to order better as well. It was just way too many kind of young players coming in. And I think that, you know, that very nearly cost us so dearly, you know, with Premier League status.

21:36I mean, I don't really agree with you on Tell. I think the jury's still massively out on him. I think he had to kind of be a part of the first team toward the end of last season and actually was one of, you know, was undoubtedly one of the triers and one of the bright sparks, but I'm not convinced. unless I'm convinced that De Zerbi could turn him into a top player but I'm not convinced that's a guarantee if that makes sense yeah of course yeah so like yeah there are no there is a divided feeling towards I'm a big fan I think he's got a massive ceiling I think we will see it at Spurs but I understand also he can frustrate even setting up two goals in the most recent game for Michael Moore there were parts of his game where people if you're super critical about him you would be frustrated it's up.

22:21Before the season even kicks off, soccer fans are already making predictions. Who wins the league? Who qualifies for Europe? And who's lifting the trophy at season's end? On Calci, America's number one prediction market platform, you're trading against peers in a live market, meaning there's no house. And as the probability changes, you can buy in and out of your position. For a limited time, download the Calci app and use code CUP26 to get$10 when you trade 10. K-A-L-S-H-I. Calci. Trade the beautiful game. 18 plus only restrictions and eligibility requirements apply. Event contract trading involves risk and may not be suitable for all investors.

22:54Prices, values, and available markets may differ from those mentioned. For more information, see calsheet.com slash regulatory. This message is brought to you by Apple Card. Shave ice by the beach. A trip to the state fair. And a throwback flick at the local drive-in. They're more than just items to check off the summer bucket list. They're also opportunities to earn 2 % daily cash back when you use your Apple Card with Apple Pay. Apply for Apple Card now and use In Minutes with Apple Pay. Subject to credit approval, Apple Card is issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA, Salt Lake City branch. Terms and more at applecard.com.

23:30Yeah, sorry. What was you going to say? Yeah, I was going to say, well, I've lost my thread now. All right, don't worry. so yeah and then he goes on to be a we then start to shift somewhat and the reports or the rumours are probably more accurate the rumours are that Daniel Levy was actually given an opportunity to be much more expansive in the transfer market at the one where we signed Kudus and we signed Xavi Simmonds and Kola Mouane and Paulina but they didn't see the activity you were aware of this rumor that he didn't see they didn't see the activity the transfer activity that they they wanted to from daniel levy even though the the purse strings the purse was open for him really i'm not aware of that i mean i suppose i suppose that was part of the reason why he was he was sacked yeah i mean i suppose it makes a degree of sense because um the timing of the levy sacking remains slightly odd after you know it was start of September wasn't it so it was straight after the window closed so I guess that rumor kind of lens credence well that's right the timing of his sacking lens credence that rumor right if they were waiting to see if he if he could kind of change the habits of a lifetime and have a big spending window then they would have presumably looked at how the SA and Gibbs White deals were bungled and thought you know this leopard is not changing his spots we need to get rid if we want to be more ambitious and change our policy in the transfer market so I'm not saying that that's true or I've heard that but I'm saying that that makes some sense um and I just think yeah again like Levy you just can't imagine Levy doing that it's just just feels so against everything we know about kind of his nature and the way he believes football should be run and I sincerely think that you know, these are strongly held beliefs, you know, that clubs should be sustainable and that spending money doesn't always equal success.

25:36You know, he said these things enough times that he wasn't just doing a line. I'm convinced that he, he believed that, you know, down to his bones. So yeah, it's quite a funny thought that like they said to leave you, go and spend big. And he just wasn't able to, literally wasn't able to do it. I don't believe that he thought that spending money doesn't equate success because it clearly does. He said that more than once though and I think he did believe it. But if you actually look at his lived history, for him, spending money did not equal success. Look at the 10 most expensive signings of the Levy era.

26:15I mean, just look at the 10 most signings Spurs made and lop off. Well, you've got to lop off Fernandes and Tonali now, haven't you? But more or less, it's all new. Yeah, and Dombele, you've got Lo Celso. Yeah, and Soldado, Paulinho. No, Paulinho. yeah Polino like he had failure after failure and by far the most successful signings Levy made were his favourite policy which was kind of I think suggested to him by David Pleat like 20 years ago just you know go and sign the best players from the football league and watch them develop them and that worked that was how he he got a club you know world record deal for Bale that's how he got so much money for Walker that's where he got Dele you know that that was a much more successful policy for Levy than spending big money.

27:01So I can well believe that he truly thought it doesn't actually correlate with success to just spend. I believe he believed it. I'm just saying that the fact that he couldn't, he wasn't willing to change the way Spurs were operating and the people underneath him weren't allowed to be expressive to achieve that either because of how strictly he held together our finances. So it's just the fact that he couldn't get past that to see that we needed to speculate. Certainly on wages spent to achieve was his biggest failing. I think the key thing as well is that transfer fees actually, I think I'm right in saying that transfer fees actually don't correlate to success on the pitch.

27:47What it is is wages. And he was obviously never willing to pay. So Spurs could get expensive players like Ndombele, but they were only players that were willing to accept the wage Levy offered. And there were lots of players that cost 50 to 60 million, which Spurs were willing to pay under Levy for some players, but Levy would never have spent on their wages. So the 56 million pound players Spurs got, like Solanke, Dombele, Romero, were players that were willing to work within that structure. and I think that's that's probably the key thing yeah um and then obviously you come to this summer and if you forgive Langer and Venkatesham for not spending properly in January and you could probably see their reasoning to some degree they probably had the arrogance to think we can't go down but they also thought we can't get the quality in that we need and we will be able to spend in the summer so they gambled a little bit and it nearly nearly nearly all went wrong yeah but things, you know, Daniel Levy's gone.

28:55Enoch, in their newest form, or Enoch minus Levy are now spending or willing to spend lots of money. Cash has been invested in the football club and suddenly Lange has freedom to operate and his deliverables, if you look at it, is the free transfers of Sanessi and Robertson. Now, the Robertson deal was agreed before De Zerbi was even put in place, if I remember rightly. So that's good business, fingers crossed. And I believe Sanessi. I certainly remember David Ornstein had that story and I think it might have been the Tudor era. But I may be wrong on that. So someone is convincing these players to...

29:38I mean, it's the money we're offering, obviously, but also it's to join Spurs. But De Zerbi, and I'm fine with this, is taking a lot of credit for, say, convincing Tonali and Fernandes to join Tottenham as well as the massive pay packet they're going to get. Whereas Langer appears to have received no credit for this. Yeah, well, I think we can say that the Deserby factor has been huge. Yeah. And I think this is not based on conversations with people. This is just my hunch. My hunch is that Tonali is Deserby's guy and that Tonali is kind of De Zerbi's sort of thank you for saving us from relegation and that Fernandes is more of a club guy.

30:24That is sort of the feeling I get. It is a bit weird that Spurs have bought two players in a similar position for that much money. And I think Tonali was the one where De Zerbi said, I've saved you. You said I can have whatever I want and I want this guy. And Enoch have gone, okay. but we also want Fernandes because we think long term he's going to be and I think they might be right long term he could be one of the best midfielders in the world so that's just my sort of feeling on those two but like What do you think just quickly now we're talking about that who do you think is going to stand out who do you think are the two if you had to compare Fernandes I agree yeah I've got like this maybe this is just like my inbuilt Spurs fan pessimism but I've got a horrible feeling I've just got like I don't know it's a horrible feeling it's a small feeling I feel more positive I feel there's more of me that feels positive that Tonali will be a success but I think he has got sort of potential to flop a bit I mean I don't know why I just I don't know it's something yeah I mean I think he's very he's kind of very on record saying he wants to he wants to go to Italy at some point I mean he looked he looked desperately unhappy when he signed for Newcastle yeah and I I don't I just I think he's like a relaxed guy I just don't necessarily he's to be like to be one of the best players in the world even in your just your position I think you do need a slightly kind of insane he's obviously got all the talent in the world like and he's so good at what he does but I think to consistently be one of the best in the world in any position you need that sort of slight insanity and that slight like drive that kind of most normal people don't have.

32:12And I don't know whether he has it, but I think he's a great player. And like, I think he would have, I mean, to go back to the Zerbi, like I don't think, I don't think Spurs get Fernandes and Tonali, particularly Tonali, who was at a point in his career, I think he's 26, and playing well enough where he could have improved any squad in the world. Like he could have gone to play for Real Madrid or Barcelona and he wouldn't have looked out of place in the squad. I don't think players get that calibre of player, having finished 17th twice in a row, with Frank in charge. I think that was the pull of Deserby.