THE LAB | Was Conte Right About It All?

0:00Dan KP:This podcast is part of the Sports Social Podcast Network. We're joined by Dan Kilpatrick of The Athletic to talk through the weirdest Spurs season we can remember, from the genuine relegation dread to the strange comfort of just wanting boring mid-table football again. For the most part, though, this is about Antonio Conte's outbursts, and we go through them in order, including the Burnley wobble and the infamous Southampton rant, and ask whether he basically saw all of this coming. There's also some overdue respect to the Bodo glimps wins and a look at the run-in for the rest of the season and we have a proper chat about who's actually pulling the strings at Tottenham.

0:43Now that Levy's gone. You may be listening to this on the Fighting Cock feed. If you enjoyed this podcast, then head over to The Lab on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts and hit subscribe so you never miss an episode.

1:08hello dan how are you hello flav very well yourself yeah i'm all right i mean obviously we're all dealing with the existential crisis of existing in the premier league and whether or not that's going to go away but i did see something on on reddit that made me laugh um and it it was a post that just said how to stop worrying about relegation it was like a self-help it felt like here's a guide to getting you through the next month um and it's weird because i don't know how you felt about it but i have i am consumed really a lot of my day is spent or at least a moment will pass where i feel like i'm getting on with my life and then it will come flashing back that we're in a relegation dog fight i've had a range of emotions over it really there's there's definitely been points and this was probably pre frank sacking where i was sort of intrigued about how bad it could get and like i've heard people say i just want to feel something again and i was definitely kind of in that camp of feeling really apathetic but then it's now obviously got too real to the point it's just like this isn't funny anymore like stop okay you you you know universe you've had your fun um give us a break now um so yeah i'm i think i'm i'm beyond the point of kind of intrigue about how awful it could get and so yeah more more on your side of things we got offered uh we got asked a question yesterday i was doing a preview for the game against fulham and he pulled up a quote that i'd i'd said uh um maybe in in around november time and i said that i'd rather be in a relegation dogfight than just feel nothing the mid nothing about a mid-table mediocrity i regret saying that i i don't agree with that at all i really really would love the apathy of just comfort we've tasted it we know we don't like it let's just go back to where we was 10 yeah yeah just for now yeah i know but i but i totally get the the the the kind of impulsion to yeah feel something again any kind of strong emotion because I do think, I think for me anyway, things changed slightly when Frank went.

3:24And I don't hate Frank as an individual or a person, but I felt really from the start of November. And I should have gone stronger on this. It's easy for me to say I knew all along, but I really did feel from the start of November that this guy just wasn't a Tottenham manager and wasn't going to be able to scale up. And so for months, really, I was just almost at the point where I didn't want Spurs to kind of get late equalisers and win or get late winners because I just thought this is just going to prolong a managerial tenure that I know is not right. So I think the Burnley game was a good example.

3:58Romero kept saving time, didn't he? The Newcastle 2-2 was another good example. Obviously, I wasn't celebrating opposition goals or anything, but I almost had these mixed feelings about Spurs pulling off kind of undeserved results because I just thought that's going to give the ownership an excuse to just continue to not act and do nothing. So it's really strange. I've felt some really, really strange emotions supporting Tottenham this season that I've kind of never felt before. We're going to get into all that sort of stuff and the prolonging of Frank and why that might have been and maybe the desire to keep him even at the final moment.

4:35Because you wrote an article about Conte's press conferences, essentially, when he was across as Spurs manager. And I know, and we all know as Spurs fans, how mental Conte's press conferences could be at times. But it's really hard. And what your article did really brilliantly was put them in chronological order. So you know when they happened. Because my understanding of Conte's start at Spurs was it all went swimmingly and we qualified for the Champions League. But that isn't a fact. Anyway, I'm going to pick you up and ask some questions about that. Done, in a second. just two things that I want to get your opinion on how impressive our wins against Bodo Glimt have been in the last two years everyone said you won't be playing Bodo Glimt in the Champions League they've beaten Man City Atletico Madrid away they have beaten Inter Milan home and away and are now into the last, where are we, 16?

5:33so it just goes to show the Europa League was harder than we thought I actually hadn't thought about that I kind of framed it as Buda Glimt have gone up massively levels this season. Yeah, they probably have as well. Yeah, but you're right. I hadn't really thought about our wins over Buda Glimt in the context of what they've done this year. But yeah, you're right. It definitely paints them in. We did beat them this year as well. Yeah, that tie was funny. So I remember like, because Spurs were just so poor in the league, I wrote about five or six articles in the build-up to that tie. about how difficult a game it was going to be.

6:11And, you know, they were really referencing the conditions, you know, playing the Arctic Circle, the plastic pitch of the away game and in a glimpse kind of coach and their organisation, their spirit and all the rest of it. And I actually thought in the end Spurs handled both games pretty well. And, you know, we were totally in control of that tie, really, from start to finish. There were a couple of scares, obviously, when they scored at White Hart Lane. But we made light work of them and we made them look like a kind of team from Norway, with the greatest respect. But I think, yeah, fair enough.

6:49They're beating some of the most historic teams in Europe at the moment. So Spurs, I guess, deserve some retrospective credit for that. And finally, just on this before we move on. So I've nicked this spreadsheet from Oh So Spurs' sub stack. So go and subscribe to those guys over there. But they put together a prediction of the run-in for Spurs, West Ham and Forrest, the three teams that are pretty much embroiled in this relegation dogfight. And when you look at it, you just think, surely we can get out of this, right? So everyone knows the fixtures, but I'm going to run through what this is. and this, in my opinion, is a pessimistic prediction, which includes no wins in the next five games and staying up.

7:36So we've got Fulham, a loss, a draw against Palace, a loss against Liverpool away, draw Forest at home, draw Sunderland away, lose to Brighton, so that's six games, beat Wolves away, lose to Villa, beat Leeds, lose to Chelsea and get a draw against Everton. surely no matter how bad we've been when the players coming back we can do that when you look at it like that it's not as scary no i did see my former colleague simon collings a couple of weeks ago on a couple sorry a couple of days ago on twitter say that of the corresponding 11 games last year if you take out leeds and sunderland who obviously didn't play last year we took three points from those nine games which is not good and would not be enough unless I guess if we beat Leeds and Sunderland and then took three more points, nine might be enough.

8:32But yeah, I mean, it's the reason. I mean, the Arsenal game was, I thought was very depressing and quite alarming. But I think while that game should never ever be described as a free hit because it means so much to every Spurs fan. I know what you're saying. It was never going to be the game that was going to define whether Tudor's period in charge was a success or failure. And as depressing as it is to say, if he beats Wolves away, beats Forest or Palace at home and then gets a couple of draws, or beats Forest and Palace at home and Wolves and doesn't get any other result, that is probably going to be enough.

9:10And that's where we are as a club, looking at the easiest games on paper and just thinking, let's win them. And it doesn't matter what happens in the other games. That'll be enough to keep us in the Premier League. and then hopefully in a much better managerial market and a summer transfer window, we can go and be ambitious again and restart. It's disgraceful that we're in this position. It really is. And it wasn't something that hasn't been predicted by our friend Antonio Conte. He said it in very straight talking and forward terms. As described in your article entitled The Less Remembered Antonio Conte Outburst That Foreshadowed Tottenham's Plight.

9:51I want to go through the Southampton quote kind of in detail. I'm going to read it in full. But before that, what was really interesting and made me raise my eyebrows at the start of your article was that he said he was ready to go three and a half months into his first season at Tottenham. I know he came in partway through. After Spurs slumped to a defeat to Burnley. Yes. That was surprising to me, Dan, because I don't remember, like I said, the start of his Spurs career being covered in four defeats in five games. And, you know, I don't remember it being much more going along. Yeah. So, I mean, Conte had a really rocky start in charge and it was up and down for a few months.

10:37And then kind of after Kulisevski and Bentancur came in at the end of January, there was still a bit up and down, but then Spurs really found, we really kind of hit a groove and found our rhythm from I think kind of late February early March so actually this Burnley defeat that I mentioned at the top of the article I mentioned three Conte outbursts in the article the first one because it's the anniversary on Monday was this after the Burnley game and I'll always remember this because it was also the day as people will know who've been following the news that Russia invaded Ukraine so that that four-year anniversary was this week as well and I remember being with Jack Pitbrook coming back on the train from Burnley the following day Russia had invaded Ukraine and everyone thought you know World War III was going to happen and then this you know infinitely less consequential moment was happening in our professional lives so Conte had kind of come out and said I don't think I'm the right man for the job you know they should consider sacking me effectively or they should consider my position and you know I'm ready to go and we were you know on a five or six hour journey or something thinking well the Spurs manager is about to resign and World War 3 is about to happen fuck this is all a bit bleak um so so that's that's the rant I start with um and then I go on to say but actually Conte stayed in the job for 13 months after that you know over a year and then of course he quit with the now kind of infamous rant at Southampton but the what the piece is really about is these comments he made a month after the Burnley game so a year before he left the job where he effectively predicted that Spurs would be dragged into a relegation battle which I think now has been borne out and so a few weeks the genesis of this article or this column was that a few weeks ago when I first started thinking that Spurs could be dragged into a genuine relegation battle I just remembered that Conte kind of said this and I do think you know I want to say that I think a lot of what Conte said a lot of these outbursts including the one at Southampton, the kind of one everyone remembers, were kind of self-serving.

12:44And, you know, it was about deflecting blame from himself, putting the blame on other people in the club, and, you know, about making his achievements look better. That was often what I felt was the kind of context behind his outbursts. But I didn't think this one, where he kind of predicted that Spurs would be dragged into a relegation battle and compared them to Burnley, was self-serving. I think he was genuinely saying, look, the level of this league is getting high. I can read the quote if you like. Yeah, go on. Why not? I've got them. But go on, yeah. He said, so this was March 2022 before a game against Everton who were then managed by Frank Lampard and then in relegation trouble of their own.

13:23He said, the level of this league is so high you have to pay great attention and it's my forecast that in the future it will be worse. It will be very, very difficult and then you'll have to pay greater attention. Teams at this moment who seem to be in the middle, they could slip. Everton is a good example. You look at the Everton squad, their players, and you can think it's impossible that Everton is fighting relegation. They had such an important coach in Rafa Benitez. He won Champions League some titles and was sacked. Now they're fighting for the relegation zone. Everton is a good example to understand that this league is very, very difficult and in the future it will become more difficult.

13:53And obviously the context here was that, I think Conte was asked, are Everton a kind of example, a worrying example for Spurs? So the context was he was really, he doesn't name Spurs, but he was talking about Tottenham. And I think that has proven very, very prescient looking back now. And Conte obviously sensed or saw something in the way the club was being run that made him concerned that what we're seeing now was going to happen. Yeah, he was right. You know, I spent so much time being angry with him. And, you know, I very much felt like he was culpable in where Spurs were when he left. And I remember the South Anthem game because I went to it.

14:38And I remember how we went three, one up. I think Pedro Porres scored his first goal for Spurs. Yes. And you think, right, well, we're comfortable, but this doesn't feel right. There's something not right here. And then when they pegged us back, that was when we then found that Conte had exploded. And I just, I was so angry. Your job is to fix this, not to make it worse. You're pouring petrol on the fire. That's what you're paid to do. But as time has gone by, the truth of what he was saying is borne out. He nailed it. He was absolutely right. And it may be just a coincidence, but I don't feel like that.

15:20I think he saw within the structures of the football club something that isn't about delivering success. All the things that are aimed at Daniel Levy and have since seen his removal from the football club probably were true then. I guess the worry though is battle the devil you know. I'm sidetracking here, right? Because I'm a little bit, people aren't going to like this when I say it. And I'm sure I'm going to get a reaction on social media. But although Daniel Levy was never going to get us there because he said as much. When I say there, you know, being a proper member of the big six, challenging for titles and stuff.

16:00I think I did think he knew how to run our football club and we were in good hands in terms of stability and I worry that the impact of removing such an influential character in the football club who'd institutionalised the football club in his own image there's going to be consequences for removing him and maybe that's something we have to we have to work through and live with but well it's Levy's kind of final public quote isn't it to Gary Neville like effectively they'll miss me when I'm gone like I'll get the credit when I'm not here and you're kind of what you just said is kind of proof of that I actually disagree with you I think Levy is the architect of everything we're seeing now I think he's the most culpable person for this relegation battle in the state of the club but what I would agree with you on is that you know you can't remove someone like Daniel Levy if you're not going to properly replace him.

16:54And I think more or less every Spurs fan kind of senses that Vinay and Lange are not adequate replacements for Daniel Levy. If you're going to get rid of him, and I think that was a justifiable call given the decline of the club and given the way he had mismanaged it, if Levy had been in charge of Levy, he would have sacked Levy 100 times for the mistake that Levy... He was screwing up regularly, So he deserved to go, in my opinion. But you've got to replace him with someone who knows what they're doing. And I think the concern is that that hasn't happened. Do you think he would have sacked Frank quicker than Venkatesham had sacked Frank?

17:33Yeah, I think so. Do you think Venkatesham, or based on what you know, Venkatesham actually wanted to keep Frank, despite where we were at? I don't know enough to sort of say conclusively, I think. I mean, I think the thing that would have been different if Levy had been in charge is that the anger wouldn't have been directed so much at Frank and the players. It would have been directed at Levy. You know, if Levy had still been in charge and the results had borne out under Frank in the same way, you would have had the whole stadium chanting, we want Levy out. Instead of turning on Vicario in the Fulham game and instead of turning on Frank after the game, it would have been all directed at him.

18:15so actually the Lewis's and Vinay being kind of unknown quantities were kind of in this position where Frank was almost a shield for them because he was really the lightning rod for so much of the dissatisfaction so I think Levy would have had to act quicker because his position would have been under threat whereas the Lewis's and Vinay no one was shouting Vinay Charlie Lewis get out of our club was not heard from the park lane because no one knows who they are in time that that might happen but it wasn't happening this season that's what I I was asked a question on something a show I was on recently about Daniel Levy leaving the club and whatnot and I was the way the way I feel about the structure of the hierarchical Spurs is I don't know who is running us I don't know who the power brokers are like I know Venkatesham is the CEO and therefore will have strong decision making certainly on day-to-day running of the football club but who is pulling the strings you've got nick is it boucher or boucher i think boucher okay you've got him who p seemed the narrative around him is that he is the sort of he's the guy that pulls the strings and is in in the sort of background doing this these clandestine movements to move spurs in a certain direction and then some people are saying well no it's actually vivian lewis and some people say no it's joe lewis behind it there's such a vague ambiguous structure at Tottenham that we don't know.

19:44We knew Daniel Levy was pulling the strings. We knew he was in control of the football club. We knew who to blame. I don't know who... I think that's almost part of the problem. A really important article that my colleague Jack Pickbrook at The Athletic did was this explainer piece on why the Lewis family, and that's Vivian Lewis, Charles Lewis and Nick Boucher, haven't passed the Premier League owner and director's test. I encourage anyone who's interested in that kind of thing or interested in the Spurs ownership to go and read it. Now, they haven't passed the test. Now, that's not to say they wouldn't pass it, but my understanding from Jack's reporting is that they've chosen not to take the test because they don't want to be involved in the day-to-day running of the club.

20:24Now, their position is that, like their other businesses, they will be consulted on key decisions and informed of key decisions, but they want the experts, in this case Vinay, really, and Langer Second, to run the business, and them just to oversee it. So their position would be, we are not making decisions. We are not running the club. That is down to the chief executive. And I think Vinay kind of nominally has responsibility for everything on and off the pitch. He is running the club. He's the closest thing to a Levy replacement as it stands in this new ownership structure. And Langer obviously reports into him and is a lot more in the nitty-gritty of the football side.

21:13Yeah, and look, it's not for me to say that that's how it's working because I don't know, but that's what they would say is the way it's being run. So if, I presume, obviously, Venkateschum has passed that test, but he's not an owner. Yes, Venkateschum has passed that test. No, he's an owner's and director's test. So he's on the board, he's passed that test. So you're only not on the board. So you just need one person to pass? Yeah, Peter Charrington, who's the non-executive chairman now, different to Levy, who's the executive chairman, is effectively the representative of the Lewis family on the Tottenham board.

21:51So Peter Charrington will sit in board meetings and speak to Vinay and represent the positions of the Lewis family. And he has passed the test as well. But what I wanted to tell you is that my daughter is very good at studying.

22:28So, Conce, Mourinho and Postacoglu all pointed at sort of structural issues at the club in different ways. like there was there's they went about it they spoke about it in in in slightly altered terms and but but we the theme was there across those three managers i think only nuno wasn't here long enough to probably see it didn't comment on it is it then worrying do you think then that that's that's the archetypal structure as we understand it it doesn't exist like it's too vague for us to understand pretty much although you have done that was really interesting what you said i didn't know that that was the case but you you want you want you need a a clear line of of um influence i think like i can't imagine manchester city operating like this i can't imagine arsenal operating like this it's just it doesn't feel like there is this sort of cohesive unit working in the same direct in the right direction and so Vinay and Langer and they they are culpable especially like Langer more so I am sort of sympathetic to Venkateshian because he's just been here and there's been a lot of turmoil and it takes a while for he's for a CEO to have an impact on a company the size of Spurs and it may come in due course but as we know as fans we judge everything by the last result in the transfer window which is probably unfair if you're taken on the size of job that Venkatesham is.

23:55But it just feels vague and it doesn't feel like if there is people making decisions, we don't know who they are, essentially. I think yes and no. Again, to reference Jack's piece, he makes the point that obviously there are a myriad different ownership structures across the Premier League now. But the way Spurs are running, the way the Lewises are now running the club, i.e. not being on the board and not having passed the owners and directors test is really unusual and there's not really another comparable example of another club that operates like that in most cases even if the ownership are kind of far removed from the day-to-day decision making they have passed that test or they are on their board so take united for instance you know the Jim Ratcliffe is is on the board Dave Brailsford I think is is past the test all the Glazer family there's glazers on the Premier League publishes a list of everyone who's passed the test this is how we know the Lewis family haven't passed it and there's kind of glazes on that list that I've never heard of everyone's heard of Avram and Joel I think but there's other ones on there just to give you an example from another club of the way owners are tending to operate elsewhere but having said that I would say that the structure that Spurs have now is probably more of a traditional big business structure than the one they had under Levy You know, Levy really ran the club as his own kind of personal fiefdom.

25:22Like, you know, he ran it like a family business. He didn't have a CEO. He was the kind of de facto CEO and the executive chairman and often the kind of director of football as well, because he was going in and, you know, doing high level negotiations on the big transfers and stuff. So I think, you know, in one respect, this is not normal. But in another respect, it's a bit more normal than it was. you know it's not unusual for big businesses to have owners who kind of sit above a CEO who's who kind of responsible for the day-to-day running at the club and you know let's not forget that Vinay was Levy's first ever CEO I think you know previously that he did not have anyone in that position and I didn't kind of look you know Levy's departure was such a shock but almost looking back now when Vinay came in and Levy sort of appointed a CEO for the first time and then you know subsequently donna left you you kind of there were a few clues there that that things were changing that you know the power was potentially shifting um so yeah i mean i think i think the thing is inconceivable though wasn't it there's no way yeah it was yeah it because it and again you know this is a this is a point that jack has made and so i need to credit him but like the big lesson of that um is that levy wasn't really ever in charge you know he he was but he could be removed at the drop of a hat when the lewis family decided that they'd had enough of him or they wanted to be more involved or they wanted to sell the club you know whatever their motivation was for that decision in september i i i did a a very kind of unpopular podcast with um a guy who works out in the Middle East who had a very strong desire for Qatari owners to come in at Tottenham.

27:08But one of the things we talked about was the difficulty that Daniel Levy posed in ensuring that a takeover went smoothly and he would very much be the fly in the ointment. And he said that the only way to get this done would be for Daniel Levy to be removed. And I'm like, Daniel, that's never going to happen. Why would they do that and then Lohenbaugh three months later he's gone so yeah I don't need despite the clues despite the CEO coming in a bit Venkatesham I don't I think it's it would have been difficult to predict even then but now you look back and go especially when Venkatesham turned up and said we kind of kind of worked together and we both like red wine and it all just feels very odd now that interview is a kind of strange moment in Spurs history only our football club where something like that would be allowed to take place.

27:59Do you think that a director of football needs to be brought in and Langer has to be removed, in your opinion, as a Spurs fan? I think Spurs need, I think Spurs clearly need more football expertise. And there is reporting, I think Matt Law in The Telegraph did a piece weeks ago now saying that Spurs want to bring in another co-sporting director to replace Perattici. so I don't think the structure as it is is going to stay the same whether that is someone else to work with Lange or whether that's someone to replace him I honestly don't know but I think Lange remains a bit of an unknown quantity for me and I suspect he I think he's made some very smart kind of young signings that in time will quite possibly thank him for Bergvall, Gray being the obvious ones I think but you know I think Spurs need more in there and I think there was a recognition of that when Pratiti came in I think one of the big issues is that as I said like Levy Levy was incredibly well connected you know he he knew a lot of people in football he had you know numbers of of owners and chairman and sporting directors and agents from you know across the world and across mainly across Europe and you know as he would from 25 years of running a big club but you know the Spurs lost all that when he went and I I think part of the motivation for getting Peretti back in, even after Levy had gone, was having someone who had that network.

29:30And I think Spurs have lost that. So I don't know what they should do. I don't know. I don't like desperately want Langer to go like some people do, but I think Spurs definitely need like a lot more football know-how in and like in and around the club. and whether that's someone working with Lang or whether that's a couple of people working above him, I don't know, but they need more. They need more of that. Yeah, a friend of mine who works for a company in Hong Kong that potentially there is some interest, vague interest in buying a stake in Tottenham and he's pretty high up in that company and he is very concerned about the dual role of a sporting director because in effect, you don't have a director of football.

30:18The idea is you have two people doing two roles, but that means the other role isn't being done with the efficacy that it should have been. So we'll see how that turns out. Did you manage to read the story? And it was very short. It was in The Guardian about the fact that the Lewis family or Enoch are willing to smash the wage budget. Yes. Spurs, stay up. There was no quotes. I don't know. It was just sources, according to the journalist, I'd imagine. Yeah, I read the story. I mean, I think, I'm pretty sure the Vinay has gone on record saying that. Yeah. I just wondered why there was a story two days ago when it was said before the West Dam game.

31:01Yeah, I mean, that's not for me to say, really. Sorry, mate. I just put you on the bus. I didn't mean to. No, no. I mean, I think that is on record, I'm pretty sure, from Vinay, you know, saying that we have to operate in a different way. And I think obviously all the Lewis family haven't spoken publicly yet, but we've had kind of tidbits from sources close to them, saying that they want to keep putting money into the club and be more ambitious. And then the quote when Levy went, wasn't it? It was more wins more often. But I think this actually brings us quite neatly back to my Conte piece and Conte's gloomy prediction because I think the reason it was so striking was because at the time Spurs had Kane and Son and Lloris and they just signed Romero.

31:54So they had, you know, two of the best forwards ever in the Premier League. They had a World Cup winner past and present. And Romero won the World Cup at that point. I don't think you had that. That was a year later. The following season, yeah. So, you know, they had star quality and they had their own kind of celebrated manager in Conte who'd won a load of trophies and titles elsewhere. but you know he obviously recognized that to quote his successor Apostol Cogli as I do in the article that there were fragile foundations and that you know if Kane and Son were to leave which he presumably knew was a big possibility in the next couple of years then there wasn't much there and he would have known that their wage bill was you know the the lowest against turnover the lowest percentage against turnover in the Premier League he would have known that they weren't willing to compete in the transfer market or able to compete in the transfer market with Man City or Arsenal or Liverpool or Chelsea or Man United and I think he would have sensed that that way of running the club was certainly not sustainable for wanting to compete at the top and that actually there was a complacency that meant that Spurs could even be dragged toward the bottom and again like I think I don't think he was being self-serving now I think that's just a decent prediction that's kind of been born out well um postocoglu also talked about the lack of ambition when we finished fifth and the players that he wanted to buy like pedro netto and margey and um semenyo i think he mentioned and i remember being linked at the time so there obviously was something in our interest in those players but instead we decided to buy the young players which will no doubt turn into great great players eventually but it wasn't what we needed right then um which i just want to uh you know refer to go back to the southampton rant um because that that is the one that um is most well remembered and i'm just going to read it out because right like now where we are now it's like now is it completely whereas at the time i was just like what you told you what you're meant you're mad you're mental is what i thought um it's this dan it says what happened is we are not a team we are 11 players that go on the onto a pitch.

34:07I see selfish players. I see players that don't want to help each other and don't put their heart. If you want to continue in this way, you can change the manager or a lot of managers, but the situation cannot change. Believe me, it's not a question of tactics or technique. It's about players. They're used to it here. They're not used to play for something important. They don't want to play under pressure. They don't want to play under stress. Tottenham story is this. 20 years, there is an owner and they have never won something. why the fault is only with for the club or every manager that stays here i've seen the managers that tottenham have had on the bench you risk to disrupt the figure of the manager and to protect the other situation in every moment until now i try to hide the situation but not now it's time to change if tottenham wanted to change that's the three years ago pretty much yeah yeah Yeah, I mean, actually, I say in the piece that I don't think you can learn as much from this, his most famous rant as you can from his relegation prediction that I, that sort of piece is about.

35:12But I think what Conte really took aim at the players in that rant. But what he was saying, and you can clearly detect this from the quote you just read out, is that he was saying the kind of fecklessness of my players is a symptom of the club, you know, the environment they're in is a symptom of the failings of the club. So he was taking aim at the club, but he was doing it in a bit of a sort of backhanded way, I think. Now, I suspect that Conte knew that if he came out and said, it's all the owner's fault, he would be sacked for gross misconduct and not get a payout. So he couldn't do that. So I think he was using the players as a kind of way to make the point that he wanted to make.

36:06I've never really been someone that blames the players. I think in most cases, professional footballers are all... To reach the Premier League, the levels are just... We've all played with someone in five a side. You had a trial for Dulwich Hamlet when they were... about 10 years ago and are just ludicrously good at foot you know the levels are so um high that I think most people that get to the Premier League aren't kind of feckless lazy bottlers I think most cases they're incredibly competitive individuals that just need to be in the right environment in most cases there obviously are outliers and there are obviously levels within that so I didn't like the fact that Konsei took aim of the players but I kind of I guess I understood why he felt he had to do it that way but it was also kind of a little bit self-incriminating wasn't it because it's like well you're the head coach it's your job to it's your job to make these players fight and make them a team and unite them and let's not forget as well that he had spent the whole of that season refusing to sign a new contract refusing to say if he wanted to stay at the club and kind of darkly hinting that he didn't so which is not the best environment for players you know that is not a way to get players to you know fight for your manager and fight for your cause if you think well the coach doesn't really care about us and doesn't have his heart in it.

37:22He's also away for eight months. He also lost his friend, his best friend. He lost three good friends and yeah, he did have a rough year personally, Conte, and it is a big part of this, I think. Yeah, no, it just felt like everything was sort of slipping away but when he came back, he came back for the quarterfinal against AC Milan which we went out on in the Champions League. Was it the quarterfinal, last 16 maybe? And then, he felt like he was around for a month or two before it finally blew up um but yeah i just think it's it was just interesting and it sort of stayed with me for for ever since it happened i've never quite forgotten that rant and every time there is a conversation about the hierarchy at tottenham it's never far behind you know yeah i mean i called it in the piece a dark footnote in tottenham's modern history which which I kind of think it is.