THE LAB | What Pre-Season Has Taught Us About De Zerbi-Ball

0:00Before the season even kicks off, soccer fans are already making predictions. Who wins the league? Who qualifies for Europe? And who's lifting the trophy at season's end? On Kalshi, America's number one prediction market platform, you're trading against peers in a live market, meaning there's no house. And as the probability changes, you can buy in and out of your position. For a limited time, download the Kalshi app and use code CUP26 to get$10 when you trade 10. K-A-L-S-H-I, Kalshi. Trade the beautiful game. 18 plus only restrictions and eligibility requirements apply. Event contract trading involves risk and may not be suitable for all investors.

0:32Prices, values, and available markets may differ from those mentioned. For more information, see calsheet.com slash regulatory.

0:58$79. Get more of what you need faster and save more where it counts from the ground up. Our best lineup is here at Lowe's. Valle 3-826 while supplies last. Selection varies by location. Chevy is called the heartbeat of America for a reason. With SUVs made to move with your rhythm. The versatile Equinox tackles your entire day. The spacious Traverse fits your crew and your whole weekend. And Trax brings style with value you can count on. All infused with tech that has your back, so your drive always hits the right chord. Chevrolet. Together, let's drive. Tottenham's preseason has been messy thus far, but beneath the injuries, absences and disruptive preparation, I will be getting to see what Roberto De Zerbi is trying to do at Tottenham Hotspur.

1:50I'm joined by Kish from Lillewite Lab to break down the first signs of De Zerbi ball and why Luka Williams-Barnett looks ready for first team football and how Mateus Fernandes and Sanandre Tonali could transform Tottenham's midfield. And the big question still hanging over the number nine position. Plus, we look ahead to Brentford and try and work out what De Zervi's first Premier League XI might be and ask how patient we need to be as Spurs fans with a team that could look very different once everyone is fit. If you're enjoying the lab, please give us five stars on Spotify. 1.2 thousand people have done so thus far but many many more people listen to the podcast so you have a time if you get anything from this podcast please give us five stars that'd be amazing enjoy the show

2:47hello how you doing kish how you doing yes good good good excited for the for the new season are you yeah yeah um i was it was it's come around quite quickly from the world cup which i haven't really been able to have a break but um yeah yeah but yes it's it's looking bright i don't yeah from a work perspective i don't mind i it's it's fine um but i just do you know there's this weird situation you find yourselves in where all of the things are pointing in the right direction right they are we've got a really good energy on paper yeah we've made really good signings but I'm not over what's happened in the last 24 months yeah I'm suffering from that I was gonna say I can't remember the last time I watched Spurs and felt confident which there was a time that that was happening yeah a long time though it's felt very long since like you go into a game and you'll be like yeah we will we'll be fine we'll control the game we'll get a few chances we'll score a couple of them and we'll we'll be fine I haven't we haven't had that in so long.

3:48No, no. And I'm not saying this to be condescending in any way, right? But I'm a fair bit older than you. And even what happened last season was shocking to me. And I've started watching Spurs in 1985. That was my first game. So, yeah, man, I'm still traumatized. I'm still traumatized. And I'm kind of looking at it and I'm looking, the squad, where is everybody? Why hasn't van der Venom the dog you played a minute? You know, there's a World Cup so anyway this is going to be a positive podcast I promise but yeah we're going to look through what we've learned from the pre-season thus far and what it says tactically about what De Zerbi might be playing we'll talk about Williams Barnett we're talking about Fernandes and I'm kind of picking your brain about what you think might happen in the next season yeah Kish if that's okay but I want to say congratulations on an excellent interview with Burnley where did he go?

4:45Bramford so he'll play well he'll be in the squad against us okay and so uh his name is jayden anthony um out of uh did he did he play for burnley when they went down yes no he joined burnley in the championship the season the way they went down came up with them out of all their players he stood out to me as as a class act and i didn't know you knew him personally yeah he went to my school um i played in a lot of teams with him growing up are you similar age yeah he's my year he's my year he was in my form yeah was he oh shit was he was was he class at school yeah yeah he was he was at arsenal from when he was eight so right yeah he's always been um but was he levels above everybody or not uh no we had we had very our school was very good so there was there was a few um who are who are very good in my year um he was was one of the best for sure there was two probably who him and another kid um but yeah he was he was he was top we um i played with a gentleman called leon bell when i was at highbury and he played for barnet eventually yeah i don't know who is winning the youth teams he was unreal like you couldn't get near him and he he said and this to take nothing away was Barnett.

6:02And he was like, this kid, you just couldn't get near him. Anyway, it was a fascinating interview and you know why it stood out and it stands to reason now the fact that you know him is that there was a lovely familiarity between the two and why it's not a Spurs conversation. It was really interesting, mate. So well done. Thank you, mate. I appreciate that. Or what it's worth. How do I find it? How do they find it? Yeah, Beyond90Football on YouTube. Footballers FTBL. Is that your... Is that your... That's my non-Spurs channel. So if you want any non-Spurs stuff from me, that's where you'll find it.

6:33Nice. Beautiful. Right, yeah. So I guess... What are your overall takes from pre-season? How do you feel it's gone? And what does it really matter? To be honest, I think it's been a bit of a mess of a pre-season. I think in terms of the planning. I don't think we've been a little bit unlucky, obviously with the injuries carrying over from last season and World Cup people returning late and those people being key players. But it's just like we haven't really been able to work out what the system is going to look like with certain personnel, right? Because as much as you can, you can drill in a system, the system is about the players.

7:21And so it's hard to know exactly, for example how Poro is going to be used because he was used in a number of ways last season and it's hard to know whether that was about Poro so they used him in that way because it's him or whether this is the system the Zerbi wants and you plug the players into that and it's hard to know how much of it is going to be different when the key players come back such as Kudus, Poro, Udogi, Madison, whoever it is all the signings that come in but like there was there was good good things to take from it as well in terms of like looking at the patterns of play and I think it's quite obvious what the Zerbe's been wanting to do I mean he's done it everywhere um and so yeah I didn't like I didn't take too much from the pre-season I think it was good mainly for me to see some of the academy players um I think that was my main takeaway from it yeah it we are it does feel like a bit of a mismatch of a uh a mix match a mix mash it seems no it's not yeah i don't know i think i'm made up a word uh yeah it was just it was a bit of a mess wasn't it um because we haven't had any consistency we've got lots of first team players are aren't available and it had just been good at least i mean hoffenheim we got sort of a semblance of what the first team might look like but not complete um it's two different sides playing on two games two days and it just feels like we weirdly we're in the start of the season and it's already we're having to patch things up like going into Brentford I want to get your predicted lineup for Brentford but going into Brentford it feels like a half-baked front line yeah um and you know one that probably Mikey Moore probably will start on the right.

9:06And, you know, Tell on the left and Richarlison up top, which is, that's not a Champions League starting front line. However, it's what we've got and not what we'll end up having. Let's start with Williams Barnett. You've seen a lot of him. Yeah. And I've seen your video. Very interesting. What do you make of him? I just think he's, I think he's a superstar like I think he's I think he's crazily good I think sometimes players come through and like you can just tell in the way they carry themselves how good they really are and I think he has that certain like superstar nature about him and not every top player has that but not many non-top players have it if that makes sense like it's like the arrogance but in for me a good way especially for an attacking player the confidence I think we lack that so much or have lacked that for a long time as players that just show up and expect the fact that they're better than everyone else and expect that they can do things that other people can't and won't hide away and won't be shy and won't be kind of scared to demand the ball or scared to try things I think last season so many players went into their shell and I think he's someone that as a personality is so refreshing but obviously matches that up with the technical ability the bravery to try certain things in a in a first team environment because I always thought like last season I watched bits of him in the academy and I thought yeah like he's so fun but I wonder how much of this he'll try or he'll replicate when there's senior pros around him who might not no not won't like it but he'll have to you know respond to them if they if they wanted to pass if they wanted him to pass or if he's being told to do this by a guy who's had 10 years more in his career and he does the opposite or whatever it is.

11:05That's always a good question to see with academy players. But I think he just treats it like it's any other game when he's been playing with the first team. So he's super exciting for me. He looks so comfortable. There's a big difference in looking at him and say, look at a Jamie Donnelly. And I don't want to use Donnelly as an example of what isn't, you know, a Tottenham first team regular standard. I don't think he is there. But there is like, they are leagues apart and there's like four years age difference, I think, behind him. I'm not sure actually how old Donald he is. It's far from that, yeah.

11:42All right, okay. So he just looks comfortable. He looks good at the level, but also he's filled out as well. And he's only 17, right? Yeah. He's not even nearly fully developed and he's starting to look big enough to handle it. In the same way that, a lot of people feel like this as well, but in your mind's eye, you're thinking about Mikey Moore as like a small, low center of gravity, tricky winger kind of thing, but he's massive when you see him. He's a big, yeah. And Lucas, and Williams Barnett looks like he's starting to build into his man body for want of a better expression. And obviously in the Premier League, such a physical league, and so fast and powerful and high contact that he's going to have to be comfortable with that.

12:26But you described it as arrogance. And I guess on a football pitch, it can be both considered arrogance and confidence at the same time. I know you said confidence as well. But there was a moment where, and you highlighted this in your video, where he sort of faints and then pushes it past the outside of his right foot. Yeah. And that isn't something that you normally see. Someone might try and push it around an attacker with a left foot and use pace like you might see of Andy Robertson or a doggy, but this was something deliberate by using the right foot to do it. What impressed you about that?

12:58Yeah, so it's this, they call it like the Hazard step because Hazard used to do it so well. It's basically like that little bit, that little moment you get of separation or you just get a yard away from a player. Let's say you just take one touch past him. As soon as you get that little moment ahead of him, once you step across him, let's say your second touch is now across him if he touches you it's a foul right because you've now positioned yourself um between the ball and him but the way he does it as well is like and has artists as well is it he almost fouls them like he almost pushes his body into them but because he has the ball it's never really seen as a foul but it's like using your body so well to basically shift them off shift them off you can't you can't apart unless it's like a violent act it can never be a foul no because you're using your arm and you're basically just moving someone away from you as you dribble it's something that comes so naturally to him to be able to do all of that in one synchronised movement right because a lot of players they have to be concentrating on the ball while they're dribbling or they have to be looking forward whereas him he's got the ability to carry on his dribble while still moving the opposition player away from him it's all kind of in one synchronised action do you see him as a wide left player or 10?

14:16I think this is a really difficult one because of the Premier League has kind of had this death of the number 10 with how limited the space is in those zones. I think most managers will use someone like that out wide first because there's less responsibility, right? If you lose the ball in the center of the pitch, it's always going to be more threatening than if you lose the ball wide because obviously the goal is always in the center. So I think he predominantly will play this season out wide. However, there is a shortage that we have in the number 10 with injuries. Obviously, in terms of the squad, we have a lot of options, but none of them are fully fit right now.

14:55So I think potentially I like him in the number 10. I like him being allowed to drift around more. I think in the Zerbi system, the wingers are more fixed, whereas the 10 has more license to go and roam. But I can see him or see why he would be used out wide initially. Do you think you'll get game time in a Premier League? So say Madison isn't fit and Javi Simmons isn't back till February and then, you know, our only outlet in that 10 is perhaps Conor Gallagher. Yeah, I think like that's the thing. I think early on... Do you think he's good enough? I guess is a better question. I think he's ready.

15:31I think physically and athletically he's more than ready and it's not all like about his actual physical strength. It's just like the intensity he plays at, the way he can move. He glides across the pitch. You know sometimes you see those young players and they almost get swallowed up by the size of the pitch and they just look like a kid on a big pitch. I think he's someone that just looks ready. So I think the early parts of the season are going to be a real test for him and kind of an initiation. Because if he can impress early on, then so much of a young player's career initially is about chances they get and luck.

16:11right and if he's if he's able to get some minutes early on and he looks good then suddenly he's a viable option for for the long term right there's been so many players who have had their chance just because of injuries and then suddenly now suddenly they're ready because they've shown they're ready um so i think i think early on is where we'll see him get minutes and then based on his performances we might we might not or we might continue before the season even kicks off soccer fans are already making predictions who wins the league who qualifies for europe and who's lifting the trophy at season's end.

16:41On Calci, America's number one prediction market platform. You're trading against peers in a live market, meaning there's no house. And as the probability changes, you can buy in and out of your position. For a limited time, download the Calci app and use code CUP26 to get$10 when you trade 10. K-A-L-S-H-I, Calci. Trade the beautiful game. 18 plus only restrictions and eligibility requirements apply. Event contract trading involves risk and may not be suitable for all investors. Prices, values, and available markets may differ from those mentioned. For more information, see calsheet.com slash regulatory.

17:13Pros, find the right flooring for the job in Lowe's newly redesigned flooring showroom. Shop our expanded assortment of trusted brands and get up to 35 % off style selections, Stain Master, and Stain Master Pet Protect special order carpet. And while you're here, save$100 on a DeWalt 20V Max 6Ah 2-pack of batteries. Now just$179. Get more of what you need faster and save more where it counts from the ground up. Our best lineup is here at Lowe's. Valle 3-826, while supplies last. Selection varies by location. Chevy is called the heartbeat of America for a reason. With SUVs made to move with your rhythm.

17:51The versatile Equinox tackles your entire day. The spacious Traverse fits your crew and your whole weekend. And tracks bring style with value you can count on. All infused with tech that has your back. so your drive always hits the right chord. Chevrolet. Together, let's drive. This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Listening to this podcast instead of doom scrolling? Smart move. Another smart move? Getting help from one of State Farm's 19 ,000 local agents when you choose to bundle home and auto. Bundling. Just another way to save with the personal price plan. Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state.

18:31Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability, amount of discounts and savings, and eligibility vary by state. I think in the current market as well, you develop him. If he's seeing anywhere close to 20 Premier League games, not saying starting, obviously, but just appearing, the value goes through the roof, especially if he has good moments. And what do you do? Do you cover him in a blanket for another year? or do you expose him and see what he's about? So we'll see. Yeah, I don't think it's like a one-size-fits-all. I think for someone like him, I really don't see the problem in giving him minutes now.

19:13Whereas there's players who you might need to protect a little bit more. With him, youth football is going to be too easy for him and it's going to be... It looked easy, didn't it? Yeah. The clips you'd see is just like taking a piss. Yeah, and that's not going to be helpful for him, right? I think someone like that you need to keep challenging, keep making them rise to the level. because things are too easy for him at that level and he needs to be challenged. You know, sometimes you've got a youth product that's just too good to send out on loan because you don't want to risk it. It kind of feels like that.

19:41Like, do you send him to a championship loan where he's going to get clattered, toughen him up? You're kind of like Tim Sherwood's School of Thought where you'd send players out and see what they're made of. Andros Townsend had like 13 loans and Kane had seven or eight. With him, with the type of player, in the same way that I hate to mention it, but like Max Dalman, Arsenal, you don't send that player to Lincoln. No. No, there's some players that just fast track through. And we haven't had one of those in, well, since I can remember, really. Kane wasn't even fast tracked, was he? I mean, I know.

20:15Vental, really. Yeah, so I'm with you. I hope we see some minutes from him. I think we have seen something that might relate to the Zerbi ball in training. Sorry, in pre-season. There have been moments where we've been playing out the back, we've been pressed, we've got through. There was a moment against Hoffenheim, actually, where they were pressing us. Good side as well, much better than I thought they were going to be, even in a pre-season. I know they nearly qualified for the Champions League last year. They should have done, but they had a fall off of form towards the end of the season. but they pressed us and the shapes that you used to see at Brighton, you saw there and then, and we managed to get down the left and out and they were just done.

21:02I mean, we didn't do very well with the, I can't remember who it was who gave away the ball in the end, but we got to the point of the penalty area and you're like, that's why that's so important. Yeah, that's the whole idea of the Zerbi ball, right? I think it's fun because once you break, it's like even if you're on the halfway line, there's so much space, right? And so that's when everyone stands up at the stadium and you're like, oh, this could be a chance, even though you've only really got to the halfway line. The whole idea is to attract everyone towards you and then break and create those overloads yourself.

21:36I think the issue we have right now is a lot of Deserbi's football is rehearsed and very coached in the first phases, like in the build-up, passing through midfield and whatever. Once it gets to the front line, as you can imagine, when there's space, it's more like off the cuff, right? And it's like, just go and be decisive. Wingers take on your man. Attackers break into the box. It's all kind of free-for-all, right? And I think when you leave that to players who aren't guaranteed to make that count, that's where the concerns are. whereas if you put your you know like your Mbappe's in those situations if you could get Mbappe in in that amount of space it's it's huge problems right he's gonna score four or five you don't have to coach him no and I think that's that's the issue right now we've got is um can these forwards at the moment make those situations count because a lot of it's not easy to get those situations either right you do all the work in building up trying to draw people in moving the ball from one side then to the other side and then suddenly you break so there's a lot of work that goes into all of that and then if that then breaks down that's that's going to be that's going to send us over crazy right do you have any thoughts on what we might do if players don't teams don't press us if they just decide to sit sit back or yeah so i think this is less i think this happens less and less in the premier league nowadays why is that because everyone i don't i don't know the full reason for it but i think everyone backs them every manager wants to coach an aggressive style i think teams have realized that low blocking is almost like waiting for your fate and just kind of limit it and i guess that the gap finding some games yeah the manager situation but you can't do it for a season yeah and then i get yeah exactly and then i guess the gap in quality as well so teams back themselves more because the bottom level teams are attracting players from some of major like the major european clubs right i don't think there's ever been a more a spread of quality in the Premier League than we're seeing now.

23:39Exactly. So I think that's probably why. I think teams will sit off us. Occasionally, Brentford might sit off us. Who knows? I think De Zerbi specifically will face that because people know that that's what he wants. And I think you'll just see kind of a slower tempo in terms of just usual trying to break low blocks. I think De Zerbi's used a lot of kind of breaking extra men into the last line. so you might see a fullback making a dart into the box. He likes to overcommit men into the final third. But it will be the same. I mean, there will be little nuances, but I always think that low blocks are just low blocks and they're difficult for anyone, right?

24:21So it's often down to quality, crosses, a lot of crosses, a lot of if you can get a yard to shoot from outside the box, that's one thing. I think Fernandez and Tonali both can hit great shots from outside the box. it's always going to be a struggle to coach against low blocks. Yeah, you see it all the time. I think, you know, Gualiola has had issues. Like the best managers in the Premier League have complained about teams that consistently play in the low block. But what do you want them to do? Actually, like you said, it's probably less of an issue now because Burnley don't have to fight for their life.

24:53They can genuinely bring in quality if the ambition is there from the owners. They can bring in the quality to play a better brand of football if they want to. so I guess that leads us on to the number nine question a couple of times in pre-season more than a couple in fact there's been a ball that's fired in from a centre-back into what was Richarlison and we know Richarlison's speciality is I don't know what his speciality is but it's definitely not holding up the ball and laying off he's only falling over falling over yeah yeah I mean he's not but to be fair give him a chance in in front of goal he'll score no it's more I think his holder he always just seems to fall on when he's back to goal like yeah I was just trying to search for positives about him finishing finishing is probably that and attitude is probably right as well right but in and around the box I think he he has value but it's everywhere else but if the ball's fired into him he's falling over he's not in control and it becomes a gamble which Deserby hates and and then you're thinking about what the other options might be if we are going to play this way.

26:01So Richarlison has to do this well or he'll inevitably leave, which he's probably doing anyway at the end of the season. But I think Solanke's better at it. But if we were to bring someone in, like people hate the idea of Brian Brobby or Mateta. And I don't love the idea of them being the sort of the spear point. But if we are going to play, if we only use that as an option to play balls into the centre forward to hold up. I think there's many better than both of them. Yeah, I mean, the Deserby nine is like, yeah, that is a, like I said before, if you break, if you do all of that work in the build-up and then suddenly that pass comes on to the centre-forward directly and you play through the lines and suddenly you're in your front line and you've got the ball there and then their touch lets them down, that's going to send Deserby wild, right?

26:53Because that's like, we've just done all of this play that we work on all week and now we've broke through it and now your touch has let you down. So the idea to be a deserving line, you have to be good with your back to goal, but then obviously you have to be able to then spin and attack the box as well because our wingers are going to be wide predominantly. And so the goals are going to often again come from the centre forward or the 10 or maybe the opposite winger hitting the back post or whatever it is. So the issue we have with our strikers is that one of them is good at the second part, which is where Charleston can attack the box.

27:25the other one is good at linking play but doesn't attack the box very well which is Solanke neither of them can stay fit 100 % so we kind of if you could merge them into one striker and then have them both fit all the time then that's the perfect nine but obviously we we still need for me a proper number nine who I mean if it isn't Mateta then who I don't even want him but I'm thinking so they've been linked with the valerial guy mickettadze who i think works um i think i still really rate nicholas jackson um i know people don't don't rate him i think people are warming to it yeah i mean it's because he's had a very good pre-season um but i don't know if chelsea would sell to us necessarily um the the market isn't great it definitely isn't great um and probably any striker we bring in is going to have weaknesses.

28:20Yeah, it's not getting great. Do you think there's a similarity to the way De Zerbi wants to play and the way Posse Coglu decided to play? Because I remember him wanting Solanke to offer that wall pass, right? Play it into him and then go again and then you've created space and you can run into it. Or players that can take the ball in a half turn and just create space that way and Kulusevsky was really good for him doing that. There are similarities to the way... Definitely. There's definite similarities. I think there's a few different ones. I think the fullbacks, he uses at least one of them inside the pitch often.

28:58You saw him use Udogi very high last season as well, even like how Ange used to use him, to use him like his runs, his underlaps, very high up. I think the main difference for me is that Ange wanted to get things from back to front very quickly, regardless of what was going on. So whether teams press or whether you're playing on the counter or whatever it is, Ange wanted to go from back to front as quickly as possible. Whether that meant playing across the pitch first and doing it on the other side, fine, but he was very big on always forward, right? Whereas the Zerbi, I think, is more, let's manipulate the opposition, let's disrupt their shape, and then let's go when the time's right.

29:39and so that's the main difference I would say but obviously there's definitely similarities and I think the striker role is quite similar as well Pros, find the right flooring for the job in Lowe's newly redesigned flooring showroom Shop our expanded assortment of trusted brands and get up to 35 % off style selections Stain Master and Stain Master Pet Protect special order carpet and while you're here, save$100 on a DeWalt 20V Max 6Ah 2-pack of batteries Now just$179. Get more of what you need faster and save more where it counts from the ground up. Our best lineup is here at Lowe's. Valle 3A26, while supplies last.

30:18Selection varies by location. Chevy is called the heartbeat of America for a reason. With SUVs made to move with your rhythm. The versatile Equinox tackles your entire day. The spacious Traverse fits your crew and your whole weekend. and tracks bring style with value you can count on. All infused with tech that has your back. So your drive always hits the right chord. Chevrolet. Together, let's drive. This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Listening to this podcast instead of doom scrolling? Smart move. Another smart move? Getting help from one of State Farm's 19 ,000 local agents when you choose to bundle home and auto.

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31:44Yeah, we kind of have to hope that Richarlison or Solanke can get fit and Richarlison can do it. Because I can't see... Like, if Gakpo signs, and he has played number nine before, I think he led the line for Holland in the World Cup. if I might be mistaken. He might have started there and then I think Broby came in. Right, okay, okay. But could he be an answer as a number nine? For me, no. No, okay, great, brilliant. The reason is for me is like I don't love his back-to-goal play. I think he looks a little bit clunky there. I think why he works on the left is because he gets that little bit more time to receive and then I think he's not great at receiving it in the tight areas and being able to be secure in it.