Coventry owner Doug King on promotion and Premier League survival | The Football Boardroom

25:49Henry:So you have an approach, the Doug King way. I would respectfully suggest you've said it. It is informed hugely by the business person you are. You are fundamentally value-driven. You understand value. To the non-traders listening to this show, watching this show, you know better than anybody probably in the Premier League how to buy low and sell high and the vital importance of timing and getting that right. But this is not a time for selling. This is a time for supplementing what you've got to give yourself a fighting chance of being, of that crucial first year. By the way, can I make another point, Doug?

26:26Henry:Because you've alluded to regulatory and I think we're gonna have some fun talking about that in a minute because the good news is, unlike many newly promoted teams who had much richer owners than you or I who did have unlimited funding but were actually held back by regulations that said, I don't care how much money you've got. I don't care it's real cash. I don't care you're ambitious. Actually, a newly promoted team can only spend half as much as its competitors. Ironically, with the new squad cost rule, I worked out coming here this morning, if you wanted to, I'm plugging you in at 150 million of turnover over next year all day with a bit of growth in stadium, bit of growth in commercial.

27:09Henry:You could have£125 million squad cost rule. I think today that number at your club will be 40 to 50. So you've got unlimited headroom if you want it over the next two or three years. But I would respectfully suggest, if it was my job, you know, I call it laddering up. The goal here is to hang on to that 17th rung, 16th, 17th as your worst case scenario and the really well-run clubs with people like you running them responsibly and sensibly and practically without unlimited capital, I may say, would be going 17, 15, 13, 11, 9 over five years, not 10 day one. And what does it take to do that, do you think, looking from the outside?

27:55Henry:Is it three or four good vets, three or four? I mean, obviously, I think that the interesting thing about trading is they'd say it's buying low, selling high, selling high, buying low type of logic. But we're not talking pure trading here. And I think one of our big critical signings was Matt Grimes. So Matt Grimes was a 29-year-old player who we felt we needed his experience, his quality with our squad. Good point. And so for me, we went out to get him. That's why I'm saying is like, yes, I want to develop and grow talent. And I believe that the coaching team has shown that they can take a Jack Radone, who was at Huddersfield, you know, sort of playing a little bit on the wing, a bit peripheral.

28:45But from our view, a high quality prospect. And obviously he's had two great seasons. He's the guy attracting bits, yes. Yeah, two great seasons, a lot of huge goals, huge assists, you know, really creative player. under Frank and Joe's sort of coaching has really grown. And so for me, we can grow players because we've got squad value that's, you know, soared from buying well and then growing the value through development and enhancing their prowess on the pitch and therefore their value. So of course I want to have that as my backdrop, but amongst it is the balance. And I think the more I've learned in the last three years is the dynamics of the team critical how it feels how it works how they get on i don't want it to be a love-in i want it to be challenging professional but fun it's important it's fun the applier goes to his work like i like to go to work and it's fun if it's not fun i don't really want to go to work and i think that that's important and an advantage in a way if we can get it right versus a lot of other competitors i say that are a little bit probably more dysfunctional than us on that side you have a future england goalkeeper in washworth he's an outstanding talent i speak to a lot of people in the england age group system you know they've seen him you know he may well compete with uh with trafford to be jordan pickford's long-term successor there he's obviously on loan yeah how do you keep a player like him because you know the mood around is that he could be their number one next season listen i think he's had a great experience with us i think he'd have great experiences uh and you've been showcased and he couldn't have wished for a better year could he uh we know we knew how i did try we did try to buy him we did recognize his quality and he'd had a tough time where he'd been injured pulled back not played for a year right you have an option no i didn't have an option i mean you know brian tony and i had chats about the situation but obviously for me it was more critical to get the goalkeeper

31:00Henry:than waste my life you know sort of fighting for a bet fair play to you because a lot of guys knew in the game and i was just like this when i went to villa took me about five minutes to realize you You know, instinctively as a businessman, loans feel wrong age because you know if it goes well, you're creating. If it goes badly, it's terrible. And if it goes well, you're creating value for somebody else, which is why. But you got over that because he's been very influential. Well, I mean, if you look at what we've done, I have shunned or I don't like loans for that reason. Yeah, how many have you done?

31:30Henry:Very few. Very few. Yeah. Because the reason I'm not building my value of my player. But you are building the value. I'm developing players for other people. so how can I build my trading bank of how I can buy and sell? Yes, but you built that for the club because he helped you gain promotion. Right, so this one I had to get a high-quality goalkeeper in this year to get in the Premier League. And you did. And we did. So fair play. So, yeah. And by the way, let me just give you a reassuring. I don't look forward to you having that chat with Tony because we had an analogous situation, which you may remember, H, which was we took Tyrone Mings on loan from Bournemouth, a hugely influential performance.

32:10Henry:We let 52 goals in by January 1 in 2018. We let about 12 in between January and the season end, largely thanks to Tyrone and another lad from Wolves, Courtney Horse. But the problem you have is, you know, Tyrone sort of went back to Bournemouth the morning after the playoff final in his Villa shirt, got out of the train station in Bournemouth, making it quite clear he wanted to stay at Villa. You know, I had hundreds of thousands of Villa emails saying you've got to keep tight and suddenly Bournemouth, who probably couldn't really wait to get him to me on loan in the January, now he's strategic, he's going to be the next number five.

32:44Henry:It was a bloody nightmare because he had to sign. Now, sounds to me as though that you've got contingency plans. Carl's been great and he's grown and he's a good man and he loves it up here. Can you take another year on loan? He's not a kid anymore, is he? He's 25 or 25, yeah. I mean, look, it's not something you know I know the situation there's nothing I can add to it at this point I'm just very happy that he had a great experience he got us into the Premier League it's brilliant everyone's a winner everyone's a winner right I agree Brighton's a winner so Tony congratulate me and he's thinking fantastic the goalkeeper you took from me he's had one of the best seasons he's up for player of the year and he's been pivotal in getting and his capital value has doubled in that year what about the other end of the pitch I mean you are going to need I know everyone's looking around for centre forwards at the moment.

33:36You've got Ellis Sims, you've got Hadjir Wright. You do need an upgrade there, do you? I mean, I said, you know, I'm just letting it all settle quietly, Dan. Last game is on. I mean, I'm avoiding that a little bit. Just because tactics and what we ultimately want to do are for later. So you say it's for later, but the majority of owners, particularly ambitious owners like you, if things are going well at Christmas, they basically have two budgets. One if we don't go up, but one if we do and who our targets are going to be. You must have been looking at targets already. Yeah, we've done our work, but I've deliberately not really looked at it in major detail.

34:22I will now get to that point of, yeah, as I said, I don't know, maybe it's an instinct for me is when everybody's rushing and everybody wants to know what you're doing, I go the other way. I just go, you know what, I've got a party. I've got a party on Saturday. I've got a party on Sunday. I've got a party on Monday. Good for you. But you are a month ahead of the other two who are coming up. We are a month ahead of the other two, but we, of course, we've been top of the league since October. So obviously we've... You've done your work.

34:51Henry:Yeah, we've done some work. We're not going to get you to tell us who you plan to sign and fair play to you. I want to come back to something you alluded to earlier that goes to the heart of this issue, which is about Frank, Dean, yourself. I have an obsession, Doug, with this notion of the triangle. And in this model, and we haven't really talked much about this, we've just taken it as read, you know, you're the chairman, chief executive, and owner rolled into it. You're in that triangle with your coach and your, I call them sporting director, I don't know what Dean's title is, but head of recruitment.

35:25Henry:Okay, that triangle is at the heart of all well-run clubs. As we sit here today, just the process side, not what you're going to do but how you're going to do it, try and help me understand the sort of discussions that you, Frank, what would be at the heart of those discussions as you face up to a summer with Dean and with Frank and yourself? How would we think about that? I think it will start, obviously, we loosely discuss everything. Dean and I talk a lot. He's probably the man I talk with most in the football. And you get on great? Yeah, I like Dean a lot, yeah. I think he's done a lot of roles and he's intense, but he has good instinct and he's transparent and he's straight and he's...

36:16Does he get you? Well, we've worked, we've talked a lot over the last three years. I guess if he didn't, he wouldn't be there, would he? Listen, if you saw, it's an interesting one. I took the trophy out on Sunday and put it on the plinth. Hopefully it didn't trip over was my biggest concern of the day. I took Dean out with me because Dean had earned the right to be with me to put that trophy down and let the head coach and the players take the plaudits and the medals. And I wanted him to be with me at that moment. That's a lot. He'd given a lot of work and time and attention to delivering quality recruitment, and he'd done that over a number of windows.

37:04And obviously I was coming in as a new owner with my philosophy, but clearly we have to navigate football. So, yeah, I think he has got his detailed plan. He pinged me his detailed plan this week. I haven't read it yet. I will then hear... I like people to be very individual in their plans. Will Frank have inputted to Dean already? No, I would say, yes, they will have spoken. But I said to the head coach, give me your plan. I don't want to hear Dean Frank's plan. I want your plan. I want your plan. I like to hear individual and not consensus. Here's our little, you know. Are there numbers in that plan or is it just names?

37:45Just more on structure. The squad. How it might look, where we need to strengthen, how we might strengthen. I'm not necessarily that important on names. It's more who we think is going to make it, who isn't. Where we need to focus our attention as critical moments of things that are very important, like Carl Rushworth was very important, and I knew that this year. Matt Grimes was very important to change the dynamic of how we wanted to play with a bit more seniority. So I think that we all have a very open relationship and we talk openly about it. But ultimately, once I've listened to everybody's individual opinions and done my work, I will formulate a plan of action that will then come in for interrogation by the relevant people, the boys.

38:41and then we will formulate a plan in the coming two weeks.

38:45Henry:A big part of that plan is ultimately, of course, going to be capital and you're going to face up to that decision one way or another and you're very open-minded on your, let's call it, your net capital in for your promotion summer. Could be any number is what I'm hearing. Well, I find football a challenge because, as you say, I'm taking on people who will take the SCR and they'll have the revs where they want and then I'll have a squad at a huge number and they'll print a loss. I'm thinking, gee, I'll go to the Premier League and I'm making a loss on the Premier League. What's the point of anything?

39:20Reality is I do believe that the businesses and the businesses I run have to be more sustainable. And I'm not going to be, I don't want to win glory at any cost. I want to win it by doing it differently and being as successful as I can in a more sustainable manner.

39:35Henry:Okay, I'm going to ask you a very left field question then on that. And please excuse me. It's a financial question. I totally get it. I mean, let's speak in plain language, Doug, so people understand what we're saying here. With that£110 million minimum increase in turnover in a club that's been prudently run with a fraction of that turnover and been successful, I totally get it. You believe, sort of a priori, that surely there's a way that I can take that significant revenue increase and improve the financial health of my club and be competitive. And I get that. There's a school of thought, okay?

40:14Henry:It's a school of thought that says the cost to compete in that league, medium term, let's not focus on this year, but taking a five-year view for Coventry City Football Club to be permanently re-established like a Brighton or a Brentford is as a middle of the Premier League club, that is a multi-hundred million pound likely total investment story. That's a school of thought. Most people think that's what it takes. And so please just dismiss this or say it's not impossible, but you know where I'm going with this. You could, as a career trader who took meaningful risk in the last three years, my math I reckon you're in including buying the stadium back brilliant idea, brilliantly executed you're in for tell me I'm wrong 120 to 140 million quid type level all in, Doug's personal wealth to have taken this club from absolutely nowhere back to the glory of the Premier League you could hire Rothschild tomorrow morning and sell a clean well run, owned stadium 100 % owned club that's got real potential but might need two, three hundred million quid to create a new villa and you could double your money, triple your money and there'd be a statue in Coventry.

41:38Henry:Doug took us from the mess to the comfort and had the good grace to hand over to a multi-billionaire who consolidated the Premier League. Are you tempted by that as a way? Could you do that? Would you do that? Look, I'm well acquainted with selling equity in enterprise value companies. And at times, if you need to grow, you need to get additional capital into businesses, whether it be debt, whether it be equity. I think the question on that is, obviously, it was very important to get 100 % to do things quickly and to change direction of what we've done. and obviously we've achieved what we've achieved to get back into the Premier League.

42:22The thing about additional capital is obviously squad value and value of players is very, very important in every discussion and everything that I look at. Reason for that is you can spend$100 million, but you're not really spending$100 million if you spend it well on players, right? Because those players you are hoping, if you look at value, you will build to be worth more than that at some point to trade them on again. So yes, you have to find the capital to do it, but we all know that it's done on a staged, you know, multi-year type amortization deal of three, four years or whatever it may be.

43:00So the issue is you still, the critical thing is to buy well. I'm very well aware of that. If you look at what Coventry City has done in the last three years, I think when I took it over, I looked the other day on Transfer Mart, I think our squad value was 30 million euros. Today, if you strip out the loan players, it's 170 million euros on transfer mark. And have I spent 140 million euros to build it up? Of course I haven't. So the issue I'm saying is, yes, I can trade, and I know how to trade. Otherwise, I wouldn't be in this position as earning a football club and taking it from 30 million to 170 million and getting in the Premier League.

43:36So the issue is, yes, you can throw a lot of money at anything you want to throw money at. And you might say it has 100 million and go and get the extra capital. I said, well, let's have a look at it. Let's see what we can do. Let's see what we can find. Let's see what we can unearth. Let us see how that looks. And if we need additional capital at any point in our journey to sustain ourselves in the top table, then we know that that can be achieved in various ways. Makes sense. Of which a strategic equity partner. Now, I'm very, very, very picky on my equity partners because for me, they have to add value.

44:18because otherwise, okay, I've got a shareholder agreement, I've got negative control, I've got can't do this, can do this. It's like, okay, I want somebody who's going to come in and add and not just necessarily sit there with the additional funding of it. And for me, that is, you know, we've got an arena now, right? And I think that I'm quite excited about growing that business. Everybody else I think wants to build an arena around their ground and I've got one.

44:45Henry:and those revenues count for SCR which is brilliant for you and we've not even tapped what we're doing on that yet and that's quite exciting how do you generate that? because you've got those car parks could you develop areas of it? well the interesting thing and I've obviously done a lot of work having taken the arena over in August last year is obviously we've got the stadium as other people have got stadium to do the let's say the summer action you know Villa do the concerts we've got Take That coming for three nights in June. So that's the stadium. Could they do a lot more? Yeah, they probably could.

45:19On top of that, we've got an indoor exhibition arena hall of 10 ,000 standing people, of which we have very few live events. We have exhibitions. They focus business on conference and exhibitions. But my view is they've missed a trick because the world that I look at around the country is moving into event venue exhibition, live activities. Huge investments going on in Bristol, Cardiff, developments in Manchester, developments in Newcastle, and they're expanding their offering and their experience of having live performances day in, day out at the venue. So that's where I'm targeting my commercial team to have a look at it.

46:04And you're a great location. Just one thing while we are playing with finance, Frank Lampard, contract extension. I love you come straight into these great little moments. Listen, Frank's on contract. What's he got left? He's got a year. Okay. Yeah. Sorry, just answering that. I mean, a lot of owners, when a coveted manager takes a team up, and obviously it's your money and it's your culture, But Frank is obviously going to be linked. You know, we're in the media alike. We'll link him with everyone. No, no, I mean... You want to keep him. Of course I want to. Of course. I mean, Frank knows how I think of him.

46:47I think he is a very skilled operator and he has taken and developed our team and taken us to the championship title with no parachute payment. We're all aware of that situation. everybody wants what they want and I will look at the situation and I hope that he will be with us into the next adventure that we've taken in the Premier League because I think he enjoys working that environment of course everybody wants a zillion loads more money I understand those situations I've got players who are on big contracts and then one another contract two years into their contract they've already got it's like if they're playing badly and not going there they're not taking a pay cut You know what I mean?

47:32It's like they come in for another extension when they're going well. So I look at everything sensibly and I try and work out and make it fair. I like fairness. And I think he's done a great job. And I'm sure as we move forward, then we'll have conversations about the situation. Just generally, you mentioned the players. How do you find dealing with agents?

47:54Some are annoying. And therefore, I'd probably leave them to Dean. Some are all right. Listen, we are very clear-cut how we work with our team. We're transparent. This is what we're going to do. And we think this is appropriate. We think this is fair. And if I don't like the look of a discussion with an agent, I will have a direct conversation and it might be a nasty one. And that will be what it will be. And that's life a little bit. And I think that they're not – I look after – I actually have – and take it or leave it, I'm saying it on your show. I have a responsibility that I want my players to have a career, to build a career, to take most of the money they make with them.

48:39And so if I feel like an agent is getting in the way of that for reasons, then I will tell the player, your agent is getting in the way of your career for the wrong reasons. Good for you. Has anything shocked you, given the world, the slightly regulated, responsible world that you come from, coming into the Wild West of football? I mean, when I hear some stuff that goes down, but it's all more anecdotal, I've made it very clear with our football club how we want to operate. I don't want to be like I can't buy a player because I'm sitting here down at the lowest level and nobody wants to come to us because we're just doing something.

49:21I have to be competitive. but I have to be competitive in respect to great experience, growing the players, you know, growing the player themselves, whether it be mentally or physically on the pitch and giving them an opportunity to work with high elite coaching and play at a better level. That has to be the growth. I think some, a lot of players don't see that journey properly.

49:44Henry:Okay. Well, I want to shift gears and finish really talking more about the broader football world. What is your take on the argument for, one, updating the economic relationship between the Premier League and the Championship, and two, the case for regulation to try and support that endeavour? What's your take on it? I think obviously I've been around it for three, three and a half years. When I came in, there was a discussion between the Premier League and the EFL on a redistribution. There was a deal loosely on the table that wasn't on the table and obviously didn't get done in changing it. Very nearly did, by the way.

50:21I was in the room. Yeah, very nearly did. Called the new deal. Yeah, and I looked at the new deal and I would have said that looks like a more reasonable deal to me and therefore was probably an appropriate moment to get that done. I agree with you, by the way. So obviously then it all went away and everybody went into their corners. It seems to me that there's not going to be any sensible redistribution without somebody knocking heads together as a backstop and therefore the regulator is, I guess, in that position. What do I want out of the regulator is I want the regulator to come in and do a deal and sort a better setup of redistribution of broadcasting down into the pyramid because I think the cliff edge and the wide gap is too big and at the same time address the parachute payment distortion that is too big for most to breach, to get out of that league.

51:26So the issue is you had to have a plan. The plan that I had was external capital in, grow the value of your squad, and therefore to cover the operating losses, either solve the operating losses with higher revenues and lower costs or trade a player or two to cover the gap. But you can't trade a player or two to cover the gap unless you've got squad value. If you've got no squad value and you're taking loans every year to fill in the pieces, I don't see how you're just going to stop that never-ending loss-making entity in the current guise. So that's why, in a way, who are you attracting into that industry?

52:07People who've got a lot of money who will probably then lose it, as we know that story. And what disappoints me a bit about how people are critical of owners is they look at Sheffield Wednesday, the Sheffield Wednesday, and he's probably out of pocket, 150 million. He's despised. He's, you know, he's negatively affected. Yes, I go to Hillsborough and it's not looking his best. But he still put 150 million pounds into a football club and run that club for a number of years. And it disappoints me that people sort of criticize everybody on the ownership if they're not coming in with a billion pounds that they're willing to throw a few hundred million at a good cause, let's put it like that.

52:52So I think that the industry for me is a challenge for an owner. I do think it is a challenge for an owner. And as you point out, there will probably be clamors if we'll see how it goes in the summer window of why haven't we got that billionaire benefactor to come in and push the levels of the FFI rules and the SCR ratio to the limit, to the hilt, to try and get you into a better position of your football team.

53:20Henry:So I sense you feel as a businessman that that cliff edge you've talked about is obviously completely insane. Nobody would have designed the system that way, Abinicio, we know that. So will you be banging the drum in the Premier League that really, let me put it in plain harsh business speak, sometime in the next six to 12 months, it may well be the case if the regulator has their way and does bang heads together, that people in that room have to vote to take five, ten million pounds off of their income and give it to the championship. You can see the benefit of that. Yeah, I can see the benefit of that.

53:57And championing it. Yeah, look, I will champion it. Good for you. But I will also say that it cannot go into player wage inflation and just be lost in another rat race. what it needs to do is it needs to be in a sensible system. It's put into running your operating losses to a certain better level than they're running them.

54:20Henry:Infrastructure spending. Infrastructure spending. Stuff when I go around is neglected because the whole game is to get out of the league and therefore they'll put it into player assets. So I do hope that what I'm scared about with the regulator and I've obviously had quite a few meetings is that, listen, I think they can take over the OADT and they've got the FCA and they can maybe do a much more thorough job on that. But I think they should take it over from the EFL, let's say, rather than have duplicative. And I'm worried about duplication everywhere. And I'm also worried that they will focus on things like that for a long time, whereas the deal, what they should do is do a deal, get the heads together, get negotiating on a cleaner way of distribution, address the chasm of the parachute payment that I'm obviously now a beneficiary of, right?

55:13I've broken out and therefore I will come down if I'm relegated and I will have an advantage versus my competition. Now I look at that and go, wow, I got out of that and now I've got it. But I still think it will be way more fun for the leagues if a Preston or a Bristol City or anybody else can get out of the damn league and be competitive and have a different city up in the Premier League. I do think that. Sorry, just before we wrap up, what is the situation with ticket prices? Because obviously you had the 4 ,800, you did that fantastic deal. Premier League package. Premier League package. And talking to Coventry City fans last night, they said effectively their season ticket for next season has cost them 220 quid.

55:53And they are very grateful for that. There are also polls on some of the fans' forums, Sky Blues, talk on what they actually feel and what is an acceptable hike in terms of season tickets and whether it's 500 to 600 whether it's more than that and what it will be for sort of like general admission as well will it affect kids will it affect pensioners what how do you balance that because christian was was very strong on fsg the american owners and we've seen the protests at liverpool you've got this fantastic ecosystem you've created this unity and this culture you've created is there a balance there i i think i've always been i mean that that deal was obviously a great deal for them but they they paid more money when i needed more money to make my losses uh less than they were and obviously in the premier league we know the broadcasting deal trumps anything you know that i'm giving away to those 5 000 premier league package uh fans what do i think on ticket prices i think that for me our hospitality needs to be much better and people are going to have to pay for that and you know i've seen what they've done at villa i see what they're doing around the country in different venues and i think that people want a good experience and therefore we need to do some work there the general admission look uh i froze ticket prices first year i my whole goal was we had a big stadium we weren't filling it so i need to fill the stadium first and foremost now the issue with that a little bit was i wasn't benefiting from the food and beverage with the previous deal because i didn't own the stadium so it was a little bit sort of you know double-edged sword on a bit but in a way now that the stadium is there is a little bit more drawn up so we are now filling the stadium we will fill the stadium next year but i i also have to understand that we're in a a commercial entity where they want to see high quality football and high quality players and they aren't coming for for free however much i'm already in for it and the way we want to go with it there will have to be some uplift and i've always said to them look ultimately you have to join with me in some sacrifice to be successful it isn't just me i'm not just the big benefactor chucking everything at it and you know you can afford it so you get on with it i don't feel that and i feel i've always been honest with them on that is it's a partnership and if you can't afford to be a partner, and this is the price of partnership, then everybody's going to have to reassess it, as I have to reassess it, and nobody comes and asks me how I'm doing on my financial side of the equation either.

58:34Yeah, but you're not on the breadline. There's some people who are in the cost of living crisis. Coventry's got some lovely parts, but it's not necessarily the wealthiest part of the country. There's some disadvantaged areas, and those are loyal fans who've been turning up through thick and thin and actually pretty much kept the club going emotionally, if not necessarily financially. There was a balance there, surely. There's always a balance on general admission when you go into the Premier League. I mean, obviously, we benchmark where everybody's at. We look at what we want to do. As I said to you, I want to skew everything much more into the hospitality where people who've got some money can disperse some more money my way.

59:08Listen, commercial income is a bigger hit than otherwise. I have 24 ,000 season tick holes, I'd say. that's a lot of season ticket holders in a ground of you know 3 000 away fans that means i've only got five so listen there'll probably be some who who you know will look at what we're going to do and we haven't finalized the ticket pricing but look i'm i'm aware of all these issues and i try to get the right balance and um everybody's always got an opinion on everything but i do understand the position of of of the paying general admission public who and having seen what I've seen and knowing why I did this in the first place, it matters to me that the community has fallen back in love with its football club and is having a great year and a great time and feeling good.

59:59And that's what life's about. One of the key words that I've taken from you today is community. Community within the club, within the city, within the sport, and that's absolutely vital. Yeah, it is vital because it matters. I mean you should have seen the scenes on Sunday it matters hugely and we can do the big parade on Monday Bank Holiday Monday it's pride where you live it's pride of where you live and I think football and things done well matter people forget that things done well matter people recognise it everybody recognises when you do things well look how many you took to Ewood yeah I mean 7 ,500 you could have taken more it was only the police that stopped and the council stopped you, isn't it?

1:00:43The thing that I love about it is that it just makes people feel good about it. I mean, football is just that sport, isn't it? It just has it. Remarkable.

1:00:53Henry:There's a lot more job satisfaction than training commodities when you get it right because you're changing people's lives for the better. If you can get it right. I mean, obviously, but I think if you're doing things properly and they can see you're doing things properly and maybe you're not so successful, I think you can probably handle it. I think it's when it gets a bit reckless or let's say you run out of money and Sisu really you know ran out of money to some degree and had to just keep it ticking over it's like an austerity sort of thing so it's disappointing that your region is in an austerity whereas others are in growth you know what I mean slightly and I think that that is a disappointment that I live somewhere whereas why couldn't I be in growth and why am I in special measures sort of thing and I think now we're competing with our other parts of England.

1:01:41Everybody competes, don't they, where they live. They're all tribal in a lot of ways. And it gives people a satisfaction that their football club is looking sensible and ambitious and giving hope to others who say, wow, I can do that. He did this. We can do these things. And it just enlightens ambition rather than feels glum and nowhere out.

1:02:07Henry:That's a great way to stop. And thank you for your time, Doug. It's been an absolute pleasure. We hope you enjoyed the show and we'll see you next week.